Mei
It's so wonderful to have you on my podcast, Frans, and I have been looking forward to this conversation for many weeks. So welcome and could you please give our listeners a brief introduction about yourself?
Frans Greidanus
Well, I'm Frans Greidanius. I was born in The Hague many, many years ago. I studied physics in Leiden, also got my PhD on physics in Leiden. And after that, I joined Philips and most of my professional career, I spent with Philips in Eindhoven, in the United States, and the last seven and a half years before I retired.
in China and I lived in Shanghai. And since my retirement from Phillips, I became a professor at Zhejiang University. And I'm still today, I still have that position. So before COVID, I traveled very frequently to China to teach, to work with colleagues on doing a little bit of research.
But in Covid, unfortunately, that was difficult. So I did everything online. But I was very glad that a few weeks ago, I returned to China for a few weeks, which was in a way, I think, the highlight of this year.
Mei
A few weeks ago, we had a short conversation with each other, and you shared with me your story about when going to China in 2000s, it really impressed me and how you described it. Could it be possible for you to share that story with our audience and to tell us how it all started?
Frans Greidanus
Yeah, that was in 2000. At that time I worked for Philips and I had the responsibility for the research on optical storage. Optical storage is, then you talk about CD, DVD and later Blu-ray. And we had the plan in Philips to start some activities in that domain in China.
Philips had a laboratory in Taiwan already for a number of years. And it was decided to also start a laboratory, in fact, two laboratories in China, in Shanghai and in Xi'an. So my responsibility was to help starting up the laboratory in Shanghai and also start some research on optical storage. So I flew.
to Shanghai. I think that was still KLM 895, like it still is today. But Pudong Airport wasn't there yet, it was there, but it was not in use yet. So I landed on Hongqiao Airport at that time. So that was in 2000. That was my first, the first time I came to China.
Then I drove from the airport, or somebody drove me, I should say, from the airport into the city. And I really was impressed by the magnitude of everything, so big and so large. And at the same time, I still saw some pictures, you could say, of the China of the past. People cycling on the highway with a lot of packages on their bicycle.
You could still see that in those days. I think later this was forbidden, but you could also already see the contrast between the modern Shanghai and how Shanghai used to be, China used to be a little bit in the past. So I was very much impressed by the environment. But also I encountered already what continued to be every time I went to China, very friendly people and people who were excellent hosts and took so much, so well care of me. But that combination of the impressive city and the high rises and the friendly people, that combination and also the eastern, saw as an eastern Asian atmosphere, all these things together made a huge impression on me, I remember.
Mei
How did you navigate the cultural differences in the first few years when you were in China?
Frans Greidanus (06:37 – 11:34 )
Yeah, the first time I came there in helping to set up a laboratory, which I also considered as a big honour that I was chosen to do that, because it was already clear that China was already important for Philips, but would only become more and more important over time.
Well, the first time I went there, I think I didn't really know a lot about culture, cultural differences. Of course, I lived in the States before, so I knew that countries are different and have different cultures. But I didn't really study the Chinese culture or paid a lot of attention to it. I just experienced it when I first time I went to China.
But yeah, I came the years thereafter, I came more and more, I visited China more and more. And in 2005, I really moved with my wife to China. So I became more and more knowledgeable, you could say I saw more of the Chinese culture, both in daily life, but also in doing business.
But when I moved there in 2005, of course, things became different because then I had the responsibility for the laboratory in Shanghai and also a dotted line responsibility for the development departments of the Philips business sectors. So then I really had to better understand the Chinese culture.
So what I always did from the very start already in 2000, apart from reading about it, and if I remember correctly, I also had a course about it in the Netherlands. But what I always did is talk to people and ask them how things were working, how things were different. And what I also always did is if I had later more and more business interactions. I always took a colleague with me and asked me to help understanding the situation and making sure that I acted in a proper way.
Yeah, and then when I moved to China in 2005, things became more serious because then I was confronted with the Chinese culture, as I said, both in personal life and in my work every day. So then, and I had the responsibility managing a laboratory. So then it was essential that I acted in a proper way.
Now, I don't think as a foreigner, you should try to act like Chinese leader or manager. That if you didn't grow up in China from when you were a baby and so on. You can never act and really understand like a Chinese person. So my approach has always been that I try to understand and by reading, by asking, by interacting with people, the Chinese culture. But I was always aware of the fact that I didn't grow up, as I said, in that culture. So it's always an understanding in a way from a distance.
What I try to do in my behavior is trying to stay authentical because I'm Dutch. I grew up in Holland. My background is the Dutch culture. And I tried to act from a Dutch perspective in a way, at the same time, understanding the Chinese culture, both business and personal. And sometimes I adjust it a little bit if I could. And sometimes I share it with my people, you know, we do this different in Holland and this is the way we do it. And I hope you understand. So I always try to, yeah. function optimally in a different environment, but at the same time stay authentically. I think that has always been my approach. I had the impression that it worked and also people appreciated it.
Mei
Yeah, I can imagine to be authentic is so important because you also, for you, you also need to bridge the operation in the Netherlands with China. And, Franz, how did you manage to educate colleagues in the Netherlands about your operation in China and to share with them the Chinese culture, how to work with Chinese people. I think that's also very important because the Dutch operation need to understand how the Chinese operations work, and you need to bridge that as well.
Frans Greidanus
There of course I had an advantage compared to let's say Chinese managers who had to interact with headquarters in the Netherlands because I came from the Netherlands, I knew the Dutch culture and I knew many of the people I was working with personally. So that's in the Netherlands. So that made a difference. But there, and this I think is well known, there is always tension between headquarters, kind of saying how things should be done, in my case in China, and being on the ground in China and knowing how things work. This remains always, there remains always some tension between these two views and you have to navigate in between.
I can tell you a little story which often happens that at that time Phillips had his offices and his headquarters in the center of Shanghai in a populated area of Shanghai. My office I forgot but it was at the 36th or 38th floor. So from the window of my office you could really look over the total city.
And then colleagues from Holland came over and we had meetings or discussions in my office. And like the Dutch, you know the Dutch, I think, they like to tell you how things should be done. So they often told me, you should do like this, you should do like that, you should do like this. And then I always said, now look outside. And then they looked outside. I said, here you see Shanghai. This is a city built by the Chinese people in 30, like it is today, in 30, 35 years. What do you think? Do you think they don't know how to do things themselves? Don't you think the Chinese people have a good view on how things should be done here and how they should do? So then they often were surprised because they didn't realize that was kind of a-ha, that the Chinese people and the Philips employees know very well how to act in a Chinese environment. And they don't need people from the Netherlands to tell them what to do. At the same time, you of course, part of a big company with certain processes and procedures. So you have also to align and to adjust to that. So it was always navigating between these two. But I always try to shift the balance more to China, so to speak.
Mei
You worked seven years, more than seven years in China. And you also lead a lot of Phillips operations in America and also worked a long time in the Netherlands. And you must see our strengths and the strengths of Chinese people, the strengths of Dutch people. In your opinion, what are the most important strengths of the Chinese people and the Dutch people?
Frans Greidanus
Let me start with China. I think the strength of the Chinese people, at least the people or the organization I worked with, but it's broader, in a way is flexibility, entrepreneurial approach and persistence, I would say. So in the Chinese operation, and that's also how Chinese companies operate, they're extremely persistent in getting things done. They will not easily give up, I think. That's what I experience.
And also, they can live with a certain amount of uncertainty. So, what Chinese companies in general do is that if they develop new products, they wouldn't develop until it's 100% perfect, until they completely understand what the market possibilities are. They would try and they develop a product, maybe not perfect, they bring it to markets, they get customer feedback, they change, they adjust. And in doing so, they finally come to the best possible product for that market. And then they are very persistent in that. So they won't easily give up.
In Holland, we would have a more systematic approach, I think. Trying to think things through from the very start, making sure that the product meets all necessary requirements, do a very in-depth market investigation so you can be sure in advance that this product would fly in the market. So it's kind of a different approach and I can't say the one is better than the other.
But if you operate in, let's say, in the Chinese environment, you have to be very well aware of this and act accordingly if you compete with Chinese companies. So that is certainly a difference, I noticed.
Mei
When you try to support the teams to collaborate based on the strength, those strengths, do you also see the Dutch colleagues and they need to understand the flexibility, adaptation of the Chinese people? How do you help the Chinese teams and colleagues to understand the strengths of the Dutch side and to really put the strengths together, and to innovate and to adapt?
Frans Greidanus
I think you cannot achieve that by only talking about it or having video conferences. So my approach always was to invite colleagues from the Netherlands who come to China, stay in China for weeks, sometimes months or sometimes even longer, and work together with their Chinese colleagues. So because I think this can only be, you can only benefit from both sides, the approaches and the knowledge from both sides, if you really work together.
So the Dutch people coming to Shanghai and working with their Chinese colleagues brought a very solid technical and systematical background with them. The Chinese brought this flexibility. Of course, they also have a technical background and then interacting and working together. I think that is the only way and building respect for each other. Because if you work together every day and you work with your colleagues, you meet them, you learn about them, you build personal relation.
I think that is the only way to achieve that. You cannot achieve that from a distance. People staying in Holland, Chinese people staying in China and then sending emails or having phone calls that doesn't work. So you really have to sit together, work in joint projects. That's the way to make progress in my view.
Yeah, there are often certain stereotypes also by the Dutch from the Chinese and probably from the Chinese from the Dutch. So the image the Chinese people often have. Well, that has been around for ages, that Chinese copy things are not innovative. But if you bring Dutch people to China and they see that the Chinese people are innovative and in fact have been entrepreneurial for a long time, Admiral He, who sailed the oceans in the 15th century, he was a very entrepreneurial guy in those days. In Europe and in the Netherlands, we were still in the Middle Ages. The Chinese already built their civilization and started to explore the world, which was of course in those days extremely entrepreneurial. So there's a long history I think in China of entrepreneurship. And the only way to discover this for Dutch people is I think to come to China.
Mei (
You stayed in China for seven years and you lead the Chinese teams. Is leading Chinese teams very different from leading American teams and or Dutch teams because that you also did that. And what are the main differences?
Frans Greidanus
Yeah, maybe I can start to maybe by characterizing the Dutch situation, then it's easier to understand the contrast. So in Holland, if you as a leader, instruct your team, set goals, you would always have a discussion because people would not immediately take it for granted because you tell them. That by the way has some advantage because that makes you sharp. Because if it's not completely correct or achievable what you want to do, you will be kind of attacked and you can adjust your approach.
In China, people would not so easily argue with you. So if I would instruct my team, set goals, people would probably not and just go away. And then they may think, well, this was not such a good idea, or this may not work, but they probably will not tell me. So in the beginning, I didn't always realize that, but later I started to realize. And then after having a more general discussion, I would always talk to individual one or more team members and ask them what their view was, because one-to-one, they would be more open to me, then they would be in a big group.
And then I could still find out the views of the members of the team and if necessary, adjust. And so that was always my approach, talk to the larger group, but also talk to individual people. And over time, I found out and I learned who were the best people to talk to. So I knew, yeah, which one to pick, so to speak, and have a more individual discussion.
Related to that is also that if a project was running and it would not go very smoothly, people would not easily tell me in general, because they would feel that I would lose face by that. So over time, I also learned not to sit back and relax and assume everything was running well but be more hands-on, look into what was happening, ask critical questions to make sure that I really understood the situation.
Now, let's also make a little bit, I don't know the English word for that, but kanttekening (footnote). You see that younger people who are more in touch also with the West and Western culture. become a little bit more critical. So what's the picture I just sketched was a little bit the two kind of extremes. And in reality, the situation is a little bit more in between, in China from the Chinese side, in Holland from the Dutch side. So all these elements I sketched are still there, but younger people have often a somewhat broader view also in China and understand the different approaches between Eastern and West. So they, some of them also spoke up in meetings and behaved a little bit more Western-like, yes.
Mei
Yeah, thank you, Franz. And before we start our recording, we chit chat a little bit. You told me you are writing the Christmas cards and to friends in China. And so the network is getting bigger and bigger. So you need to write more and more Christmas cards. So I'm just wondering, Frans, and building relationships in China is very important part. For many people, if you want to do business in China, building relationships is extremely important. For our listeners who are listening to our podcast, what kind of advices you can give them to build great relationships in China so that they can just feel like fish in the water?
Frans Greidanus
Maybe before I answer that, I do a little step back and at least that's the way I experienced it.
In Holland, if you do business, you do business with the company. Of course, you act with people, but your counterpart is the company. In China, of course, the counterpart is the company, but the people you interact with is more important.
So if you make it a little bit extreme, you can say in China, you act, you do business with the people in the company. In the Netherlands, you do business with the company. If people change in the company, you do business with different people. In China, the people you interact with are key. So you have to build up relations with people. And that takes time.
If I interact with people, I try to learn to know them a little bit better, try to understand what is important to them, try to often also understand the environment they operate in. If you learn to know them better, maybe even learn more about their family, their friends, things they like. So I always try to have a genuine interest in person and people themselves. Now, of course, you cannot build up relations with everybody you meet. Then you would have hundreds and maybe even thousands of relations. But over time you meet people you have some chemistry with, that you feel that you both have the same interest, that you have a mutual understanding of what you find important and interesting. So during the years I lived in China, I learned to know several people in Phillips, but also outside Phillips and also since 2013 when I retired and I started my position at the university. I learned to know people.
Yeah, and over all these years, there are some people where I stayed in touch with and who I like to meet when I'm in China and they like to meet me when they are in the Netherlands. And we continue to build relations and some became very good friends over time and as I continue to interact with China and go to China, the number of people like this keeps slowly expanding.
I have a strong feeling that these, of course, relations are important everywhere. But that in China these relations are even more important. I noticed that with my Chinese friends, they all have still relations and contacts with their schoolmates, their university mates, and that is very important. Of course, I also have friends from when I studied at university and at high school, but, let's say those are not my friends of today, not that they are my enemies, but I don't see them very often. The friendship is a little bit from a distance because of the time that passed.
But I noticed that in China, many of my friends, their schoolmates, their classmates, very important still. And they keep connections with them. And so friendship, learning to know each other over a long time. Yes, it is important. And still some of my people who reported to me when I was in Phillips, they still contact me once in a while asking for my advice, sharing their career, asking what my view is, what their next steps could be. So, there's a difference. In Holland when you retire, that's it. They consider you old and not so interesting. But when you retire in Phillips, you lost their boss over many years. And some of that always remains. So they consider you still as an important person in their lives. And they, not all of them do, but many of them still stay in touch and that's considered important.
When I was now in China, my last trip for two weeks, one of my colleagues in Philips organized a dinner with people who joined Philips research from the very start or just a few years after the start. So from the beginning of 2000. So there were, I don't remember exactly, maybe 14 people or 15 people at the dinner. It was a big table. And what happened is that everybody, so we went around the table, which took more or less the whole dinner, everybody valued that they could share their career with me. What happened afterwards? Some of them were still with Philips, but most of them left Philips, joined other companies, started their own company. And they valued, I think, very much to share that with me. And they also told me that those years that they worked with Philips were important to them and played an important role in their professional career.
Mei
It sounds so wonderful, Frans. I think you are not just a leader for them, and also you are kind of mentor for them during the years when they were working for you.
In our last conversation, you also shared with me about your professorship at the School of Management from Zhejiang University. Because for almost 10 years, you are professor at the School of Management of Zhejiang University. And you expressed how rewarding you found mentoring young students, and especially those Chinese students.
Could you please share with us what you have noticed of the qualities of the Chinese students, how they learn and what are the differences?
Frans Greidanus
Of course there are similarities between students everywhere. But I would say that Chinese students, at least the ones I met, or which followed my courses, they are extremely interested and willing to learn. During the course, they're always a little bit silent. They don't like so much to speak up, but separately later or after the course, they tend to come to me or send me a mail and really ask how things are doing, how to better understand things.
And they usually are very much interested in, of course, what you are teaching, but they also very much interested, several of them, in my career, how I made my career, how things happened in my career and what advices I can give them for their own career.
So what always strikes me in China that students are very eager to learn what you're teaching as I said but also like to learn from what you did, or in my case I did, in my life and how I built my career and what advices I have for them.
And what also happened is that when I started in Zhejiang University, it was in 2014 I think, there are still students, a few from the first few years, which still contact me and ask me about give advice and some have their own company by now and like to share how their company is doing and what I think of certain approaches and so on.
So, you see, there you see that same phenomenon as I explained before about building friendships in China, that some students, I wouldn't say it's a friendship, but still value the interaction and keep a certain relation with you over time.
Yeah, and the Zhejiang of course, is one of the top universities in China. The Chinese students which come to Zhejiang are extremely good. That is also a thing I noticed. They're really outstanding. That is, yeah. There are 1.4 billion people in China, and to get into Zhejiang University is not easy. So if you succeed in doing that, you're really in terms of intellectual capabilities you belong to the top of the top, I think, in China. So it's also very nice and rewarding to work with these excellent students.
Mei
Yeah, I can imagine. Frans, you are bridging China and the Netherlands and bringing knowledge and a lot of experience to the students in China. But at the same time, you are also very active with the VNC, the Association Netherlands China.
Could you please share with us what you do at VNC and why you decide to get involved with this organization?
Frans Greidanus
It happens a little bit by accident. Well, I knew of the VNC, but I live in Brabant and the VNC is mostly located in the West. So I knew of its existence but I was not a member and also not very active. Until I had a seminar or some event that I met people from the VNC, also the current chairperson, Monique, and then our interaction started.
Now as we discussed in the earlier in this interview. I lived in China for seven and a half years. And during those years I encountered a lot of support and friendship and help from the Chinese people. And I noticed that in the Netherlands there people don't know about China or their misconceptions about China. So I always felt that being treated so well, the seven and a half years by the Chinese people that I should do something in return. And my professorship at Zhejiang University, I also experience as doing something in return. And doing something in return is also building bridges between China and the Netherlands, making sure that the Dutch people get a better understanding of China and the Chinese people. Of course, that also holds the other way around. So I feel that I can, of course, it's a very small and minor contribution, if you look to the total, but that I can maybe help a little bit to build a better understanding of China in the Netherlands and build bridges.
So when Monique Knapen asked me to become a member of the VNC, yeah, I didn't have to think very long. I think that is a good way of building better understanding of China and Chinese people and build bridges. And at the same time, I know Monique asked some other people, which I happen to know, and I happen to know, and I go along very well with them. So it's also a very good team, the board of the VNC.
So these two things come together, a great team to work with. Yeah, and doing something which I think is important because of all the geopolitical tensions. I think it's important to build mutual understanding, to stay in touch, because we can only build a better world by working together and not by fighting each other. And yeah, that starts with better understanding and building a mutual trust. And of course, what I do is very minor and only very small, but if many people do this, yeah, that it can probably make a difference.
Mei
Thank you, Frans! Thank you for those humble but really beautiful words, which really touched me deeply. As a Chinese listening to your words, really, I feel so warm and so happy to have this interview with you and to hear this. Thank you so much. And before we wrap up this podcast, Frans, could you please also share some practical tips and advice for people who want to go to work in China or do business in China, engage with Chinese people?
Frans Greidanus
Yes, it's not an easy question because many of these things you have to learn in practice. But the basics are trying to understand the Chinese culture, both business and private life. That I think is essential and you can easily make mistakes. Maybe I can share a mistake. I made in my personal life. It's a small thing, but it demonstrates that things can be very different and you don't realize.
I was, we, or my wife and I were invited to a Chinese wedding. And if in Holland you go to a wedding, you bring a gift. So we went to a Chinese wedding and we brought a gift. But there we found out that is what you do at a Chinese wedding, that you have a red envelope with money in it. And when you enter the premises of the wedding, there's a table and people receive those red envelopes and they write down what you gave.
So we didn't know this at all because we thought that this was kind of universal in the world that if you go to a wedding that you bring a gift. So once we learned that. We knew that next time, if we go to a wedding, we have to bring a red envelope with money. But then we learned as the second mistake that this amount of money is not arbitrary. You cannot just kind of guess what you give. It depends on the relation you have with the bride and the bridegroom, but also especially with their parents. So you have to find out by talking to some people you know, with your relation, what would be the appropriate amount. So by encountering this, we found out what you have to do and what you have to give if you go to a Chinese wedding.
Now, so this is only a small example, but it illustrates, and of course people forgive you because you were a foreigner. But it illustrates how important it is to understand the cultural differences and how things are different. This is from personal life, but it also holds for how you operate in a business environment.
So my tip would be try to understand as good as possible the different cultures and in this case, the Chinese culture. But at the same time, try to stay authentical. So in some things you have to adjust and behave like the Chinese behave, but in other things you have to stay like you would behave in the Netherlands and if needed explain why you behave this way.
And by doing that I think you can be, you can be successful, but you will keep having surprises about the differences. You will never, never learn everything about a different culture if you don't grow up in it. But try to understand, respect it and sail in between, adjusting and stay authentical.
And maybe to add to that, ask. Ask people you know. If you don't really understand, if you are not sure, ask some people you can trust, but you have a good relation with what is best to do in a certain situation.
Don't behave like the Dutch that you always think you know better, but behave in such a way that you realize that you operate in a different and live in a different environment. Be a little bit humble. And if needed, ask people you trust what is best to do. I think that would be my tip and advice.
Mei
Thank you so much, Frans, for the great tips and advice! And really thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. And how can people find you and connect with you online?
Frans Greidanus
Well, I can be found at LinkedIn. So that is always a good possibility to find me. I'm also on the WeChat.
I'm a board member of the VNC, so if you go to the VNC website, you can also find a way to connect to me. People are always welcome, if they want to know more about China, if I know the answer or if I can help to connect, people should feel free to contact me.
Mei
I will put your LinkedIn link in the podcast show notes and also the website of VNC in the podcast show notes. Because this is a part of the series of VNC members and I'm going to interview five people in the coming months. You are the second one now and for the VNC - Vereniging Nederlands China series.
For the people who are interested in VNC, in the great activities VNC organizers, please go to visit their website. I will put everything in the show notes.
Thank you so much, Frans, for sharing your stories, your experiences, rich experiences. And I have felt so much warmth and respect. in you for the Chinese people and for all of those years working in China. So that was really, yeah, so great for me to listen to you and to talk to you. Thank you so much for this conversation. I enjoyed it very much.
Frans Greidanus
It was my pleasure. And I think you phrased it correctly at the end. I have a huge respect for the Chinese people, how they built up their country in the last 40, 50 years. It's really extremely impressive. So you can be very proud that your roots are in China.
Mei
Thank you so much, Frans, for those beautiful words. Thank you, and goodbye, and hope to talk to you in the future again.