Mary Willcox Smith's Tale of Four Daughters and Redefining Motherhood

Ever asked yourself, how does one juggle the demands of raising four daughters within five years and still maintain sanity? Our special guest, Mary Willcox Smith, not only tackles this question but also uncovers her personal journey to becoming a successful parenting coach. With a childhood marked by trauma, Mary’s story is a testament to resilience and the power of transformation. Follow her intriguing journey from her first pregnancy and birth experience in Argentina, through her subsequent births, to her decision to contribute to the world of parenting through her book.

The conversation gets even more riveting as we explore the unique challenges Mary faced with infant health and the diverse experiences shaped by her different births. Hear about her experiences with the Argentine medical system as we delve into the contrasting level of care her first and second daughters received. As we navigate through the intricate aspects of motherhood, you'll discover the invaluable importance of adequate medical care during childbirth. 

Our discussion isn't just about birthing stories and experiences; it's also about breaking the cycle of negative communication and creating a more empathetic environment for children. Find out how Mary adjusted to the new normal with her virtual presentations during the pandemic and the lessons she's taken away from it. We also brainstorm on her upcoming presentations on resilience and delve into the microstep method. Whether you're a new parent, an experienced one, or someone preparing for the journey, prepare to be inspired, enlightened, and empowered.

Connect with Mary here:

https://www.marysmithparentcoach.com

In my Empowered Hospital Birth Program I will help you

☑️identify the source of anxiety you have surrounding hospital birth. 

☑️fill in knowledge gaps to make sure that you are fully informed and confident. 

☑️learn key phrases so you can better communicate with your medical team. 

☑️emotionally process your fears so that they don’t hold power over you

Go to kellyhof.com/empowered to book a free 30 minute birth vision call.

Coaching offer

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:28

Hello, today I have with me Mary Wilcox Smith. Mary is the mother of four and a parenting coach. For the past 25 years, mary has appreciated the pleasure of experiencing the joys and, yes, the tribulations of raising four daughters born within the span of just five years. Her micro step method equips the overwhelmed parent with the understanding and tools to transform everyday parenting struggles into opportunities for moments of meaningful connection. Mary is here today to share her birth stories with us. Mary welcome and thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Yeah, I am so excited to hear about how you managed four children in five years. That sounds really intense. And also, we're going to be talking a little bit about your book that is officially launching and will be launched by the time. My listeners hear this podcast, so we'll talk about how they can have access to that and I will have all that stuff in the show notes. So, mary, tell me when you decided to start having kids, how did that look for you and how did it go?

Speaker 2: 1:41

So that's a. It was interesting when we first talked about your podcast because we made a joke, because I thought you meant my birth story and I don't know that. I've sat down. There was a lot that happened with all these kids' births, right. So when I sit down and think of it as one instead of individual experiences, it's sort of interesting because you do see how much we bring to the story, to their birth story.

Speaker 2: 2:05

I mean obviously we're there, but so much of what we're doing and how we work and how we function in our trauma is all related.

Speaker 2: 2:12

So the way I am, I had my own trauma as a child and I grew up sort of I was the fourth of five plus a half brother and there was some significant trauma, like enough so that it didn't always feel safe in my house and I was a perfectionist.

Speaker 2: 2:28

So I went 110 miles an hour, I succeeded in everything and looked like the model child and I sort of assumed that parenting would be the same and having children would be the same. And I'm pretty social, I'm, you know, I have an easy, I can talk to a tree, I'm educated, right. So I assumed kind of because you know, I could get along with other people and sort of I got to a point in my family was like okay, they're dysfunctional, I'm out of here, it's going to be fine for me, and it's just not the case right. We come to parenting with our baggage, our childhood baggage slung over one shoulder and sort of clutching what we think are a handful of tools in the other hand, and my toolbox was pretty empty when it came time where I really really needed them.

Speaker 2: 3:11

So I didn't plan a lot for children and you know I'm very much someone who kind of does so. I wouldn't say we plan, I knew I would have children. But I sat with someone one day when I was at business school and she was like, oh yeah, I'm going to get out of business school and we worked for this many years and then I'm going to get married and then I'm going to have 2.5 children. And I was like, wow, you're really planned and that was really not my way. And so I met my husband in business school and we ultimately ended up in New York. We got married and we moved to Argentina and I got.

Speaker 2: 3:42

So my first pregnancy was because we got married and literally I had a friend who said to me sort of like Mary, you're 35. You should start trying. Because we tried forever and I couldn't get pregnant, I was like, oh, that's a possibility. I can't get pregnant, well, it better start. So like, no planning. So and I got pregnant right away and I miscarried my first. I was on a skiing holiday. I was trying not to ski, which was really depressing for me and because I ran my own ski holiday company in the Alps.

Speaker 2: 4:09

I've done a lot of skiing in my life. I was really sad it wasn't skiing but I miscarried and that was I don't know. That carries its own trauma, I think and then just moved on from that, went to Argentina, got pregnant very easily again and in Argentina I was sort of consulting, I was working with life and I don't know. My schedule was pretty easy and had a great pregnancy. I worked up, I, you know, I played golf till, I think, a week after I was due. They're a very, very friendly, child-centered culture of the Argentines and so I had a wonderful doctor and it's just oh, they're sort of child-centric, so they, it was sort of it was an easy place to be. So I had this amazing pregnancy and when she was born it was pretty straight forward. It was different than the States. The doctor was a chain smoker and she would be like she'd be trying to get this baby out and then they would take like a 15 minute break and she'd go out and have a smoke and come back in.

Speaker 2: 5:09

It's sort of funny and I guess they were trying to like you know this I'm sure they would never do in any of these home births you talk about and I'm sure they don't even do it in hospitals here. But they were kind of trying to push the baby down to get her out and you know, I didn't know any better and so and I had all the anesthesia and everything because, again, I knew no better. The Argentines are also people who are like they don't want any pain, right? So they're going to look after themselves. The moms are going to look after themselves. That, you know, there's a lot of. It's a sort of a culture where there's a lot of people with maids. So you know the parent doesn't suffer as much. You're having someone who helps you all the time. Parent always suffers, but as a mom you have a lot of support.

Speaker 2: 5:48

So then Marina was born, and I think it was. She was born at maybe 1158, but they put 1202 on the birth certificate so that I could have an extra night in the hospital. And the hospitals were in like hotels. They were so nice. The hospital that I was in was so nice. I think I had a single room. Anyway, it all went swimmingly. So that birth because we can sort of stop after the birth, right, she came out, she was perfect. They phoned me to ask if I wanted to shave her head and give her earrings. I said no, I kind of wish I had, because that's what you do in Argentina you shave their heads because they want their hair to grow in better and little girls get ear piercings. So you get that phone call right away, didn't the?

Speaker 1: 6:27

hospital, because I'm not a planner.

Speaker 2: 6:28

I hadn't even thought about whether I was going to do that, but I was like I didn't need that. She got no hair until she was three anyway, so we didn't even need the shave, but it was sort of all perfect. She came out easily. Yeah, I had to bottle feed her a little bit because I couldn't quite get the breastfeeding. I mean, had I had it, had I had it, someone teach me better. Sure that would have worked.

Speaker 1: 6:46

But it was all very joyful.

Speaker 2: 6:47

I stressed about the lack of feeding, I stressed about the sleeping, I stressed about everything. But I would say, if we talk about when she was born, that moment was amazing and she was perfect. I think a lot of people have that experience. I think a lot of births, I think the majority of births, kids come out healthy and it's sort of this amazing experience. So my second daughter was completely different and so therefore the next two are completely different too, because I went into having a child the way I'd done the rest of my life. I kind of do it all right and I show up. I'm a pretty good person.

Speaker 2: 7:26

They can like fix something in the last five seconds if I need to, and I just assumed it would all be fine. So with Catalina, they did not know if I'd been in the States. I think they would have known there was an issue. There was some question that they might have known there was an issue, but you would have had to have a level two ultrasound. I don't know why they would have given me one. What are we trying to?

Speaker 1: 7:44

catch.

Speaker 2: 7:45

Trying to catch lung dysfunction, not normal growth, lung growth, and they do catch it. You catch it. It sort of. She has a bunch of different things but they call it sea scam and sea cam. And they would have caught it with her. It only would have. It could have made a. It would have made a difference Because I would have come to the States to have the Argentine medical system is amazing, but I probably would. I would have been in a place that had ECMO, for example, and they didn't have ECMO but she was Okay.

Speaker 1: 8:19

So like you'd need a level four NICU, I needed a level four.

Speaker 2: 8:22

NICU and their level four. I don't know if that was level four. Whatever they had, they did not have ECMO, they had everything else. Ecmo is level four.

Speaker 1: 8:28

So I would have that's the one Brain cooling and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 8:30

Yeah, so that's what I would have been in level four so I'd had this amazing experience with the first one, went into the second one, thinking it would be similar. I exercised, I sort of was fine. I got pregnant right away because it was so easy and I'll went so well that she was only 15 months younger than the first and I, with her, was up the whole night before. I tended to organize.

Speaker 2: 8:52

I definitely got that organizing thing when I was pregnant and, yeah, the nesting and I remember the whole night like redoing all my files, like everything and you know, putting labels on everything, and I was up the whole night because I was having contractions. And then I went in and I had the same doctor and we had upgraded our room because you could upgrade your room in Argentina and we had such an amazing experience were like let's just pay for a slightly nicer room and be there for two nights, like it's kind of fun. And so we had a single room in this with the Mendy was the name of the hospital's great hospital. First one was also a great hospital today, dad, they're both really good and I then phoned them early in the morning so she was sort of a nine o'clock birth. I mean I told you it was middle of the night.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Second one was sort of an early morning birth and I went in and it was sort of all fine until she came out and I didn't realize it right away. But my husband realized right away and she wasn't. He just realized something was off. They quickly put her on me but then took her away. So they give you like a I don't know what they're doing, the states but they gave me like a quick hold and I took her away and then we didn't hear anything for hours. Oh, definitely a few hours, and that maybe not a few. It was a pretty long time actually, though. I mean, I'm sure they said that baby's here, but you know, like we knew something was wrong, baby was no right. So we were obviously nervous. And Then the doctor came and saw us, and he was a doctor who had trained in the United States as well. His name was doctor. It's very funny because his name was B Period, prudent that was an end doctor Louise Louise B prudent.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Well, that's the kind of doctor. That's what you want. Is your neonatologist someone who is prudent?

Speaker 2: 10:39

So he came to me and said they came to us and said you know, there's an issue, and they start to explain it and you're trying to sort of take it in right, there's something wrong with her lungs, there's there's something pushing on her lung. We think we need to do surgery. We have her on it. You know, I think she was already on a high frequency. So she was on a high frequency ventilator already, not oxygen, high frequency and so they sort of explained that. I mean it was a little bit meaningless to me at the time because I hadn't learned that much about it yet, but so she was definitely in the in the NICU and would stay in the NICU. I would be able to see her at some point. But they want to do this surgery and so I think then they you know they rolled me down to see her. We couldn't touch her anything, that or anything.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Yet she was the biggest child in the NICU. She was she's like 8.2 pounds and in it or in the NICU that she was in aiming my, my close friend, who became my close friend because her child was in there and needed a trach and stuff was a preemie was, I think, four pounds. She was twice the size of these other, of these other babies and but she was probably the sickest one in there, so she was on high frequency. So you know, if you look at a picture of her, you know she's sort of lying on her back and she's got. You know, it's a very big apparatus that comes for and she doesn't have the energy to move, so she just lies on her back. It's really kind of frightening to see, makes me sad. So then you go what we went into I think.

Speaker 2: 12:08

You sort of go into a mode and oftentimes the husband has a little more than the wife but you go into a mode where you're, when you have someone that's sick, where you're really watching statistics. You're watching the numbers, you're watching. You know, in her case, whatever, guess you're not watching oxygenation at that point because she's on a ventilator, but there's just all these stats that you're watching of how is she doing? Can she do this, can she do that? This is where she is. You know, this is how we're putting a food team feeding tube in her. This is her weight. So I can't even remember all the things. But because if your baby's born healthy, you're worried about are they eating, are they sleeping? Are they pooping, right? And if they're in the nique, you, you don't have those same worries, so you're focused on these other things, and so then you start having this conversation with the doctors and your level of understanding and your breadth of knowledge jumps up Significantly.

Speaker 2: 12:58

And then she needed surgery. So then you're sort of praying for her to get through surgery, you know, at four days old. So then she gets to the surgery and then you're thrilled about her getting through surgery, and then you're doing this and then you're there were these numbers and you must know better than me but with that high frequency off, the high frequency ventilator, which I guess your listeners wouldn't know. But the high frequency ventilator is Basically it's a child with lung issues. So she was born with sort of lungs that aren't very good. It's. It's it's giving her oxygen without moving her body very much, so it's keeping her as still as possible.

Speaker 2: 13:29

And that's why an ECMO machine turns everything off, Like turns everything off so it keeps you alive. So that is the one thing that he might have the doctor might have wanted. That they didn't have would be to put her in ECMO just to let the body rest Because she was working so hard. But he said and we had conversations with people in the States and stuff but he said like he didn't want to send her somewhere with to go to ECMO because he would, she would go out of his care and he wanted to have her here and I would say they did a great job. So she had a normal, normal thorax at birth, right?

Speaker 1: 13:57

Oh, that's what I figured you were talking about.

Speaker 2: 13:58

Yeah well, her, no, I'm really talking about very, very, very bad lungs. The pneumothorax is very fixable. They put a tube in and that's the wrong. Her lungs are Mouthformed what was the official?

Speaker 1: 14:13

did they call it they?

Speaker 2: 14:14

never really. We still haven't really called it anything. We've called it just class this plastic lungs because they don't have the plasticity that other lungs do. She doesn't have a cerebral pulse. I mean she had mild cerebral palsy at birth as well, that she still has a bit of, but you can't see it as much.

Speaker 1: 14:31

That happened because of lack of oxygen exactly.

Speaker 2: 14:33

But she her brain, Thankfully is. She's very, very sharp. She just graduated from University of Virginia. She's very bright, but her lungs were such that she that if you looked at them you would just think she'd be on oxygen our whole life. So they're sort of malformed. So the so the pneumothorax was important in that moment. But if that required a two I mean if that's all she'd add like yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:56

I need all the other stuff yeah it's all the other stuff minor procedure.

Speaker 2: 15:00

And not minor, no, but relative to what she had, it's relative minor and later on we were with her in the room when she had stabilized quite a bit and was on the room air and in front of her eyes. She hadn't pneumothorax and they sort of sent us out.

Speaker 2: 15:15

She said she's actually too, but anyway, so they did so. They did a surgery on day four and that went very successfully. So with her lungs, what the doctors were looking for at a certain point was lung growth by the age of two. That was our next big step. And then that's way past our birth story and she didn't quite have that long. Both that we wanted. So we felt without ever since, but the birth itself Incredibly traumatic.

Speaker 2: 15:38

So she did a course this year and had to write a poem about her birth. So she came to me and said what is my birth story? And to have her write it is really it's just amazing, because from hers we know the way she writes. The poem is sort of you know to it, you to have done everything. She started out by saying like to have done everything right Preparing for this marvelous night. She uses the word foresee, that I don't know, that I would. But she then says you know, only to foresee a fight that takes so much might is a sorrowful sight which I just thought was like clearly, have it gone through this trial? So yeah, so that it applies to both parents and to the child.

Speaker 2: 16:17

If something goes wrong at birth, because you're, you're just mad. It's like a birthday party gone wrong, because 90% whatever you know the number better than me, but I hear an enormous percent of the time with people living in the middle of nowhere with no medical care Babies come out fine, yeah, and so it's just so Unanticipated. And then I mean also for the little thing that's born, because it's just supposed to be kind of easy. You're supposed to come out and be able to breathe and be able to eat, like it's this, you know, it's really sort of it is marvelous and incredible. So what I was gonna say, though that really doesn't take away from any trauma that someone has just breastfeeding, because it's only relative right, because our natural instinct is to want the best for your child.

Speaker 2: 18:47

You just want the best and you expect the best, and what it goes wrong, it's just surprising and traumatic. So following that was you know that your year was hard and child was tube fed. She went to room air at three weeks of age, you know, probably go, you know, just because of where she was, had way more maybe x-rays and she would have had in the states they would have known some of that a little bit better, but the medical facilities were very good but ended up being tube fed for years, going back into the hospital for a long time because she wasn't gaining weight. So just a lot of, a lot of trauma.

Speaker 2: 19:19

And so I at that point was 36 and, I think, the third breast always kind of funny because, to be honest, I'm not sure there was a lot happening to create children. I'm not sure who's listening to the podcast, but there was not a lot happening with my husband and I that whole year because life was just so busy and she was in and out of the hospital Constantly and in the hospital for three months here and three months there. So it was very busy and so, literally like at New Year's, I got pregnant, you know, which arguably might have been the first time we had sex, like any year.

Speaker 2: 19:51

I mean I'm exaggerating, but you know it wasn't a conscious attempt not a conscious joint, and also I think I'd been breastfeeding, so there was an assumption that I wouldn't, get pregnant, and I stopped breastfeeding when she went into the hospital at nine months of age.

Speaker 2: 20:04

And then because it's trying to be tube fed because she just wasn't gaining enough weight. And now I was pregnant with a third and With her, like that, pregnancy went pretty well, I think I got. Life was busier, right, so I wasn't exercising maybe as much, how he wasn't sleeping as much, so I had more swelling. I felt some of that coming on gained a little extra weight. In Argentina they like you to gain 20 pounds. It's all about the woman looking good. It's just so different than the states. But all is all about like that you would gain too much weight and the doctor be like oh yeah, I shouldn't be getting that much weight. In the states it's very different. So, I'm sorry, gained more weight to. Towards the end I had, you know, some swelling.

Speaker 2: 20:41

I remember not liking, but with her I I literally was like driving my kid to ballet practice. I can't be right, because she was born only two years later and she went a bit young. Oh no, they. They wanted to schedule her because the guy was going golfing or something right, so he didn't want to have it. It wasn't. It wasn't that it needed to be scheduled right, it wasn't a medical reason, it was not. And I was like I'm not scheduling a birth for my child Like this is ridiculous. You can send in whatever.

Speaker 2: 21:08

So she came fairly close, pretty much close to the date that she was supposed to, catalina. The second one was 41 weeks, really close. Marina was a little bit later. She came the you know the classic kind of two weeks later. The first, this one came pretty close to the date but I literally was dropping someone somewhere and, you know, had contractions and had to kind of rush to the hospital. But I went in and they immediately gave me painkillers and I you know I'm not again I didn't really thought it through. I was in a hospital with a level four because my whole focus for my third child really was none of the fun stuff, it was really just I want to be in a place where I know that they have a nicole. So it changes the experience significantly.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Yeah because I know people talk about being nervous about birth.

Speaker 2: 21:56

But it's very different from being nervous about having a child who really has very, very significant issues, and you know the lead-up doesn't didn't.

Speaker 2: 22:07

I mean I was excited, absolutely, but the lead-up is just different because your focus is very different and you know to the extent that and I and I know you you have an interesting group out there that.

Speaker 2: 22:20

So I have nothing against home births, but they make you know and I think that's why you say you have to you have to pass certain criteria to have it at home. Because After I had my child and then I came back to the States where there was sort of more of a push for sort of you know, in the natural world and it was like there's no way I am not gonna be in hospital. So for those, I guess I want to say to anybody who's thinking I should, I want to do it in hospital, but I'm feeling this pressure to be natural, like there is no harm to saying I want to be in a hospital and you can have a birth and it can be beautiful and you can push the whole way and decide not to have pain killers and you just have a backup there, and I know that there are backups with home births too.

Speaker 2: 23:02

But yeah, I have a backup there and you can feel very, can feel very, very good about that.

Speaker 1: 23:07

I think it's empowering to know that you have options too. Yeah and not to feel bad.

Speaker 2: 23:11

I guess it's just not to feel badly, yeah right, because it is a stronger push for people who like, oh well, you should really breastfeed till you this age, or ooh, you know you wouldn't do it naturally like ooh, do you? I mean this because they are more in a mind or their thoughts there.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Well, I guess I said, because those thoughts have come from a place of real passion. So the push is harder with those of us like me, or like on this girl hospital, because that's what they told me to do. Right, I don't, I'm not out there advocating that, yeah, and so I guess I just want to say that, right, there is nothing wrong with choosing, and right, you should feel good about that, and that's okay. And if you choose that you want to have it on a certain date, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 23:50

Yeah, right, picked my son's birthday and you picked your son's birthday and so you could, and the most important thing really is to enjoy the moments that are good, because you don't really know what's around the corner, and so just enjoy every if, the if the piece of enjoyment is the five minutes that you've gotten a spinal and it doesn't hurt, enjoy that right yeah, and.

Speaker 2: 24:12

I with this one. I went in and my husband and I was sitting in this room and They'd given me a spinal because I was in so much pain when I went in and I didn't really ask for it, but I didn't release again my focus was no either. Well, my focus wasn't having a whole natural birth right, because that's not where I was.

Speaker 2: 24:30

So they immediately gave me a spinal and I felt the sort of I kind of regretted it in a way because I wanted right. But then we were laying there and I felt sorry. I literally I was like why don't you get me some M&M's? So if you had got some M&M's. Or the guy, the doctor came in, like what? The nurse came in, like what is joint eating, you don't have to eat, that's funny. And so so her birth she came out. She was big nine pounds, nine ounces. So what I remember about her is just in our Regina they pushed them out and in this case they didn't, but she definitely came out hard. She came out bruised and and jaundiced. And Everyone came in like all your babies beautiful? And we were like, oh no, we've had beautiful babies. This is not a beautiful baby, this one is pretty beat up. What is pretty beat up? So that to me was sort of uneventful. I mean, she was, she came out healthy, she had jaundice, I know, you know, I remember that with all that bruising.

Speaker 1: 25:24

That's to be expected, because that's the breakdown of blood cells that causes jaundice. Oh, so there you go.

Speaker 2: 25:30

So she was probably a higher risk but you know she was healthy and so the joy of that in and of itself was great, and so I just remember laying her in bean bags so that she would get the sun and having to take her to have her poor little Heel poked right. Which is no fun having her heel poke, but compared to what I've been through is really like. So I heal poke. I'm like probably bought tears to my eyes because it does.

Speaker 1: 25:52

But yeah, well, that's not to negate the trauma of all the little things too, because I remember I mean I'm a nurse, I poke babies heels. But when my son's heels were getting poked that was a different story, yeah, and I know I see the stuff that can happen, but it's different when it's your own kid.

Speaker 1: 26:09

So being able to validate that experience for everyone, Especially since you've been through all of it, and to be able to validate every experience for yourself as well. I think that's important, because everybody's trauma and everybody's hardships are valid. Just because somebody else went through something bigger doesn't invalidate your experience.

Speaker 2: 26:28

No, not at all, and so and I'm sure I did have tears I get you hate when your baby gets poked and they cry. It's like this feels so mean. But yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:39

But the fact that I could just hold her and walk around the house, like that was just robbed. The first child, like it was it. I mean she went to bed with gloves on her hands and tubes in her nose, and like it was hard and I had to put tubes into her, so that and I wrote it.

Speaker 2: 26:56

I have an article in the Huffington Post coming out soon and I was writing something about special needs kids and it was my introductory paragraph was sort of you know, the joys of having children is, you know, there's so many moments of just unheralded joy. And I remember when she first took her bite of food at six months, the third child, and she just took this bite and swallowed it and and I cried, and it wasn't tears of joy, it was tears of my other child who was Hellish and she's, you know, still this mischief, right, but to getting her to eat because she've been tube fed, it just was so hard. And so there's these moments that are just such gifts that we don't always realize, right, because so much happens. You know, kids are so, they're just so capable and they do so much on their own. And then, so then to the fourth one. So then I was nearing 40 and, and now I've had three kids in four years or something, and I can't even imagine I'm stressed out for you.

Speaker 2: 27:56

And life was crazy. Because I have a child who's tube fed, who's in and out of the hospital, I'm quarantining my kids because she can't get sick. So nobody's going to school, we don't have play dates in the winter, we don't do anything because you know, you know now, people have their best friends. Are these people that they go hang out with when their kids were young? And I wouldn't do it because, number one, I One child couldn't just eat, so I had to be home for to feeding. But I didn't want them to get sick. So from September till March I wouldn't want to be anywhere and, yeah, it was like my own little COVID. But then I, to be honest, I was a little afraid, because the real fear that this child, the second child, might not make it, like the doctor gave her a 50-50 chance when she was little, and so somewhere in my head I was like, wow, they don't have two children. Like it was somewhat subconscious because I didn't really want to think about it, but I sort of did and I was like, if I'm going to get pregnant, I have to do it now, because I'm almost 40. And so I made this decision. You could pregnant and I got pregnant and I was so embarrassed. I was like how can I tell anybody I'm pregnant? My life is so hard. You know, I was like it felt like one of those people that already had eight kids and having a ninth, although those people are usually totally laid back and they leave it all to their kids and they're totally relaxed, right. I'm a total type A nervous, trying to control everything, and I really like I remember calling my friend and being like I am really don't want to tell people that I'm pregnant. I'm literally embarrassed.

Speaker 2: 29:24

And then my whole family got sick. Everybody had the flu. I had some babysitter who was sick as well, and the one who gets sick it goes straight to her lungs. She has to be nebulized every four hours. She has a special machine that hits her lungs. Like it's really hard when she's sick. You have to go to her doctor. Like if I call the doctor, the doctor gets on the phone for her and I had run out of my thyroid medication and you need thyroid medication, especially if you're pregnant, especially if you're pregnant. And I was trying to. I was in the middle of maybe switching doctors, so I was trying to and it'd been more than three months and I was trying to phone the doctor and just get a prescription, and no one would just give me the prescription without an appointment. But for some reason maybe my insurance wasn't taking that doctor anymore, so I just switched to doctor.

Speaker 2: 30:03

I should have just gone to the pharmacy and asked for the medication and then paid for it and then I figured it out, but I didn't even know that was an option, right?

Speaker 1: 30:13

I didn't either.

Speaker 2: 30:14

I thought you had to have a prescription for it, or like it wasn't going to happen you know what, and maybe I would have, but she might have given me three days' worth Like who knows, right. Yeah, I mean, some of my best memories are when my daughter was sick, and I mean she was really sick, and I was feeding her like these awful like lipid protein fats through her tube to try to get her to gain enough at two ounces, so she didn't have to be hospitalized. When she was six months old and trying to feed this stuff or give it to her here, she wasn't even tube fed yet, so I don't know how I was trying to give it to her, but I was trying to get it down her and I couldn't get the stuff on time. So I called Johnson and Johnson. I'm like you're supposed to order this stuff. I don't even know where I'm supposed to, and you know that I would have had that panic in my voice and the woman like overnighted me a case of it and never charged me. And it was like those moments happen where you know that someone just hears how like it, how scared you are. It was one of the sweetest things that I never even said thanks to the woman, except if she was, but you know they hear it in your voice, right and whatever.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Whoever I was talking to my thyroid-ready medicine, I was not getting it across. So I literally go to the doctor's appointment with my kids and the nebulizing machine because I don't know how long it's going to be, and at that point I only had big ones. I didn't even know I think I have a. I'm carrying a feeding tube because she's eating 24 hours a day and I'm petrified to stop it and I follow all the rules. And, like I have a nebulizer going, because you go to a doctor's office and you don't know how long you're going to be there, she has to be nebulized every three hours, right?

Speaker 2: 31:39

That doctor saw me and just thought to herself who does this woman think she is being pregnant? And she said something like to me like you've missed your thyroid medicine and your kid has a chance of being born mentally retarded, wow. So now I take that on and I think also I'd had an x-ray for something and they'd had or probably Catalina had an x-ray and I probably stood behind something, and so I was also worried that I'd been, that the x-ray had done something to me, because I'd heard something then afterwards and I didn't mention it to anybody, because I was too. I was ashamed, I was scared, you know, and so thinking, okay, so now how I'm going to have a child, all those two issues.

Speaker 2: 32:27

Yeah, she wasn't born until September and that was probably March or April. So I just sat on it, which is probably also not good for your fetus, and I was petrified and I might not have told anyone until after she was born because, but I think my husband took me and literally like we were in traffic and it was like I'm going to have this baby and we're like I remember yelling out the window would you let us by?

Speaker 2: 32:51

Like I've got to get to the hospital and my husband was like oh, my God.

Speaker 1: 32:55

Can we put into your belly? He is totally right. I'm going to do this on the side of the road if you don't move.

Speaker 2: 33:01

Totally. And we got to the hospital and that had the same doctor that had delivered the previous one, and this time he was on some. Maybe that was the one. I think he wanted to schedule that one too. Anyways, he was on his golf holiday and so we went. My husband parked the car legal, you know in the wrong spot. We went in and I went pretty quickly into the birthing room and again I got it. I think I didn't really want one and couldn't get that out, and whenever but it. But there was so much pain at that point it wasn't like stopping it, or maybe I said don't give me much or something. You know what I mean I was like, but I could have absolutely done a natural. I mean, at that point I was already basically having birth, right.

Speaker 1: 33:44

Right. Well, when you're that far, the epidural won't cover pressure necessarily, especially if it's like with pain control. You have to get it under control before it's out of control, otherwise you're not going to get back.

Speaker 2: 33:55

So I think they did something that made no difference and I was kind of like irritated that they'd done it right. But again, I just didn't take the time to plan it and I think, probably with my own trauma, I just I don't know. I didn't want to think about the births. I didn't like you know what I mean. It was sort of crossing my fingers and helping for the best type of thing, even though I should have. You know what I mean. It was sort of just my way of dealing with it. So then I get in there and my husband's, like I got to go move the car, can you hold on?

Speaker 1: 34:23

Right, so Please don't have this baby right now. Okay, that's not a baby.

Speaker 2: 34:26

So the doctor comes in, who I don't know, he goes to get the car and the next thing I know they like want to break the water to get the baby coming. So the doctor sort of coming at me with this, you know.

Speaker 2: 34:37

I'm making a signal of something in my hand that looks like a long knitting needle, right yeah, and the nurse says no, you know. And I say can we waste my husband? And he keeps coming and the nurse is like can we wait? And then it's like can we wait five minutes? Because the husband's like, of course, the guy's got one eye.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 34:55

But what was interesting for all those moms out there, had it been a first, had it that been my first child, I would have panicked and thought like who's done this to me? Right? And I can imagine some people in my area where I live being like we're not using this doctor.

Speaker 2: 35:12

Are you crazy? Get me a doctor that you know doesn't have a patch on an eye. Can you hear me? And for me I was like this guy has delivered thousands of babies. I am so unconcerned because he can do this with his eyes shut. And it was so. It's just. It's so interesting your perspective, because that was not my worry. If something was wrong gonna go wrong, I was in this hospital. If anything goes wrong, we are covered, right, and so it was so not my worry, it's just interesting, right, because for someone else that would be a really big worry. And so then he waited. That baby also was 99 and just pounded her way out, like you know, bruised, jaundiced. Nine pounds, nine ounces.

Speaker 1: 35:58

Wow.

Speaker 2: 35:59

Yeah, so with her that you know. The story that I tell her is more the sort of getting stuck in traffic With the third one is the M&Ms and the relaxness coming out and with this one and then she came out and I was just trying to look for that. You know, you may have a child born who's got developmental issues. Oftentimes there is a facial giveaway, right.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Well, yeah, especially if it's a chromosomal issue, there's something that can physically be noticed as well, right, and?

Speaker 2: 36:26

so all I was looking, you know. So I was thrilled to have this baby, but the moment was also stolen from me by that doctor, because I was looking, I mean, yes, of course I loved it and it was this little baby and you feed her and you know, I mean I remember all of that but what I most remember is like, can she latch on, is she gonna be okay and is there a developmental milestone? Like I just remember those first three or four months, like looking for clues that she was okay. And I remember finally I think it was in some marriage counseling, not surprising, you know, after number four we were just speaking to someone and I remember sharing that story of that doctor saying that and my husband being like that is a medical malpractice.

Speaker 1: 37:13

Because to tell somebody that definitively there's going to be a repercussion for your child, that's awful, I mean it was awful.

Speaker 2: 37:24

It was awful and she's fine little bit of ADD, but she probably gets that from me. Environmentally.

Speaker 1: 37:29

I was gonna say she probably comes by that honestly.

Speaker 2: 37:32

That's the word I was looking for.

Speaker 1: 37:33

She comes by that honestly, that's where my kids are at and I know where they got it from.

Speaker 2: 37:40

So yeah, so they have all fours but, I will say you know each time that moment, and it's funny that I don't. After that first one I don't remember as much, paul, because it's busier, right, because you've got four. And there was other lovely moments where the kids are excited about the other K-8 or the eldest one wants to constantly touch the soft spot on the little one and I'm like, could you get your hands off that thing?

Speaker 1: 38:02

It's gonna go through it you know, and I had a lot going on.

Speaker 2: 38:06

I had one who was really sick. And so every time it was bittersweet.

Speaker 1: 38:10

Yeah, it's amazing. I think it's just. Part of the reason that I'm doing this podcast is because, as providers, we bring our own baggage to the table as well and our own expectations, and sometimes we need to reflect on how we come across and I know I'm guilty of it as well because I'm human right, which is another part of what it is. When you, like you were mentioning when you had that doctor that couldn't hear, you say, can we wait? And somebody else would interpret that as bigger than it was or a reason to not trust that provider Barrier.

Speaker 1: 38:43

But that provider, yeah, a barrier exactly, and also it's what we're bringing to the table. You have to kind of just meet people where they're at you know. So everybody's gonna have something that they're bringing to the table. That may not be what we want to bring with us. Yeah, that may or may not cause a reaction in somebody else, and so it's not something that we can all necessarily fix. I mean that provider can't necessarily hear in certain situations, especially in the delivery room, that it's loud and probably you know, I mean, I think it's a little bit unfair.

Speaker 2: 39:18

I'd probably exaggerate the story a little bit, you know.

Speaker 1: 39:20

I mean we could hear but I work with people that do have caring impairments and we. That doesn't mean they can't practice. They're excellent clinicians. It just means speak in the right ear, not the left, you know, or maybe say it loud or make sure that they can hear you, make eye contact, do all the things you need to do, be aware, and.

Speaker 1: 39:37

But everybody's got something. Everybody's bringing something to the table that brings an extra challenge, and what needs to happen is self-reflection. Everybody has the power to self-reflection, and if somebody points out something that you're bringing to the table that you weren't aware of, or if you realize you're bringing something that is able that you weren't aware of, then to use your powers of self-reflection to find out how to make it better for everyone. That's all we can control, and so I think that part of what I want birthing people and healthcare providers to gather from what I'm doing is to begin that self-reflection and see where we can all come together and work together in order to make birth less traumatic for all of us, cause it's traumatic for the providers as well. And so then we bring that baggage too, like you were talking about, from one birth to the next. You had the experience completely do a 180 for the rest of your births. That happens to providers and that's where we're coming from.

Speaker 2: 40:39

Oh, that's interesting to have us to providers.

Speaker 1: 40:41

Because what should be a natural process if you meet the criteria for a natural birth or if you meet the criteria for a home birth those providers most of the time maybe all of the time, depending on your circumstances see 100% perfect, no problems, but what we see in a hospital with a NICU. We trend towards the complex, because we are helping those people that have those complexities have the safest birth with the best outcome, and so that is what we bring to the table. Those are the skewed values that we bring to the table, and I think there's space for all of it, as long as we are reflective of where all of the things that we are saying and doing are coming from. So it's a lot of work to figure out where it's all coming from and how you can come to the table in the most meaningful way, but I think we need to start doing it, because we are all coming with trauma and if we don't address it, it's all just gonna continue to cause negative experiences that we're all just sitting on and not doing anything about.

Speaker 2: 41:48

So the negative experience for both the provider and for the parents, and it's, I guess, from my perspective, for myself as well. But it's so sad to not just enjoy it. Such a glorious moment and I do think probably the thing that's missing from what I'm talking is it was glorious, right, and that's not what my focus is, because I'm probably because I feel a little guilty that any of them were glorious when one wasn't. Do you know what I?

Speaker 1: 42:17

mean.

Speaker 2: 42:18

Right. So, but also that that was my own true feeling in the moment, but that, absolutely, for each one of them even you know the one that was in the NICU with tubes going through, you know you sat next door and just held their little foot and thought beautiful thoughts Like there's really nothing like it. Right, there's just nothing like it.

Speaker 1: 42:39

There is beauty in all those moments, and that's I mean, that's essentially life. Life is bittersweet, but that's right. How do we work to reframe everything that we go through so that we're not making it worse?

Speaker 2: 42:52

Yeah, and that's what you're trying to do.

Speaker 1: 42:54

That's a challenge.

Speaker 2: 42:55

Trying to and so just yeah, without belaboring the whole thing. So then I had four girls and the first handful of years were sort of they were kind of fine Because I guess because I was so focused on in a way I was so focused that the sequin needed a lot of attention. The other four were girls that were pretty good.

Speaker 1: 43:14

We were always at home and it went reasonably well.

Speaker 2: 43:18

And my big joke was that the boy would come over and mix the Play-Doh and I'd be like he mixes Play-Doh. You don't mix Play-Doh colors, right? And Even.

Speaker 2: 43:29

It's so funny. And then the dark years sort of came as they got into their tween years, and the one that was the three that are the same are all kind of these natural athletes. And if you're a natural athlete and you're naturally social, your social life comes along pretty easily. And school comes pretty easily. And with her she couldn't even she was, she couldn't ever really go to school full time because you know she'd go to the hospital and be sick and then this and then that. So none of those things came as easy. And so then that created a whole host of issues for her. Who's sandwiched between all these kids, and so all of them reacted to that, and I wish I didn't done it all differently. I was just doing the best I could to keep my head above water and so and part of that is my own trauma, part of that is the situation, part of that is everything. So I think I got to the point where I just and I my trauma probably exacerbates the feelings of regret that I have right.

Speaker 2: 44:27

And thinking I could do it better because I was able to plow through life and do well despite it all. And it's very differently you have children, it's just very you can't make them.

Speaker 2: 44:37

You can try to make them, but you can't. And so we had this feeling of like I'm sure I have something to offer parents, and so I don't really think I knew what it was and I so I started it by being a parent coach and I did these things called microstep minutes because I wanted to understand the brain science, because I started to understand the brain science because of my own mindfulness, my own cognitive behavioral therapy and child development, and I started to put it all together. It just made parenting so much more clear, which is still hard if you have trauma. But at least I understood why, cause I didn't really understand the difference between holding limits and being respectful of them. Like, if I'm supposed to be respectful, I'm supposed to let them go to the party, right? So it sounds so dumb for someone who's bright, but that someone who's bright couldn't get it.

Speaker 2: 45:24

It says a lot for how tough it is if you know what I mean, right? And when you throw in your own trauma and the fact that you're driving kids everywhere and doing the best that you can. And so I did these microstep minutes that were just sort of like here's what goes wrong. Here's a bit of brain science. Try this today and I'd be, like you know, try just biting your tongue for one minute 60 seconds to see what happens. It's not a good example, but that's kind of what it looked like, and what I've done is I've taken those and I've put them into a book, but I've changed it slightly.

Speaker 2: 45:53

There's the problem. Then there's a script for sort of what not to do, what we sort of what our fight or flight has us do.

Speaker 1: 46:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:01

Then I'd say what we could try instead and I explain the brain science of it. And then I do. I give like five sections that are based around the needs of kids, limits and autonomy and safety and connection, and then I do an anecdote at the beginning of each. That's a story of mine with my kids and I explained the concept of safety using an example that I had with a child. I'm pretty like the sword. You know I pick on myself easily the sword. I'm a good boy.

Speaker 1: 46:29

Self, yeah, self deprecating. I'm self deprecating.

Speaker 2: 46:31

Sorry, couldn't think of the word, it's fairly authentic and self deprecating, but a humor, and so that's how I've gotten into what I've gotten into. When did you start?

Speaker 1: 46:39

I mean, I think, just listening to you, I'm like how on earth did you have time for a career? I didn't.

Speaker 2: 46:44

So I didn't start. I started around COVID, in fact little before COVID. So by the time the kids were at the end of high school, two were maybe already gone into college, you know. So six years ago-ish, you know, and I'd been I'd done a ton of reading already. So as they got older, I did a ton of reading. I had all my own therapy. So while I wasn't doing it, I was actually learning a tremendous amount, and then learning about childhood development.

Speaker 2: 47:09

All of my kids will need therapy, I'm sure, for the rest of their lives, but the one who with the medical issues really suffered, and so I did a lot of research around that and why what was going on, not only for the anxiety and for the depression, but just what's happening in family systems. So in a way, I was doing my own, studying, and then for some reason, I kind of thought I had to have my own framework, which you don't have to have to become a coach, but I kind of made my own framework.

Speaker 1: 47:34

But that's amazing. Yeah, I'm stuck on that too, right now too.

Speaker 2: 47:37

Yeah, and you don't have to make your own thing.

Speaker 1: 47:38

I'm like wanting to make a framework for everything, but no, I can. Just you know yeah, you can just do.

Speaker 2: 47:43

You can just do what it might come to you, whereas I sort of pushed that a little bit and that's, and then, because I really thought I wanted to write a book, it sort of came together. I then had to articulate it more clearly, didn't have to just use it in the coaching. So then that's why I now have a framework. Yeah, so I started it when they were older and you know it's hard now because that used to me really being available all the time and it's hard when I'm not and I get busy.

Speaker 2: 48:05

I feel that and the other just littles.

Speaker 1: 48:07

Yeah, we had a talk yesterday. I took them to the park. I think maybe you'll appreciate this. I took them to the park and I was like, okay, so in my daughter said, can we go to dinner and then can I get a toy? And I said, well, let's talk about what that's going to look like, because, in order to be able to do these things, where do you think it comes from?

Speaker 1: 48:24

I'm not at work right now, so I'm not making money per se, but what could you do to help me so that, in the future, we're going to have the ability to pay for these things that you're wanting?

Speaker 1: 48:34

Can you maybe make sure that I don't have to remind you a thousand times to clean your room? And can you maybe you know, while I'm sitting at the park bench trying to work on this one thing that I need to work on to, in the future, make money with this business that I'm building can you maybe make sure that you're not running off where I can't see you, to take away my attention, you know. So we started talking about when I'm doing this. What does that mean for you and what does that mean for our future? That's good, and in a way, I think that that's especially, you know, like for her and all the things that she wants to do in the future. I think that's going to empower her to understand how all those things work and maybe put it all together a little earlier than I did, you know. So yeah, Very good.

Speaker 2: 49:15

But you're starting a lot before me and you've got little kids. Good for you, right? Well, I have help, so you should. I mean so you should start. I mean I think it's a great, I think all kinds of parenting work, I mean I actually I worked a lot of my husband's business a bit, but life was pretty busy you know so great as you can. I say great, it's a great role modeling. I mean you can all any kind of parenting works, but it's great role modeling for kids.

Speaker 1: 49:37

Well, at this point, the kids just, and my husband just, want me home instead of being at work 12 hours a day. So that's kind of where I'm like. Well, that's going to take some time and that's going to take some planning and it's going to take some effort, and so I'm going to need from you guys to allow me to do that, and this is what the schedule is going to look like. You know, when you come home from school, you may have to come into the room and quietly give me a hug while I'm interviewing someone, and that's what we're going to do.

Speaker 1: 49:59

So I mean that's very responsible and I think it's helpful for moms to not have that. I think we just put such a picture out there of what motherhood should look like. But I think the biggest part is like, like I was talking about self-reflection and communication and figuring out what you're bringing to the table and how to communicate that, because that's the only thing that you can do is to communicate what you're bringing to the table. You can't control anybody else, it's true? It's true. Well, mary, I'm so excited for this book to come out. I'm glad I don't have to wait long.

Speaker 2: 50:28

You do not have to wait long, you can click on the link. I love it. I'm so excited Tomorrow, Today, Because it's like Are you going to do an audiobook? So I kind of, to be honest, I didn't even look at it, I didn't even think about it, Like things. I ended up I had a publisher, they went under. Then I had this kind of self-publishing. That first piece of advice when you're self-published, get a quarterback. That can quarterback. You just need a quarterback. And I did not have a quarterback. This book does lend itself to an audiobook, I think, because they are my stories. And then the script. There's a lot of script so you can say it. And then another shout out on your podcast would be to tell people that I especially in our area- that I do presentations and I love to do presentations.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Oh yeah, Absolutely Well. And do you do anything virtual as well? I'll do virtual presentations.

Speaker 2: 51:17

I like them in person because I feel like the audience is a little more engaged. But I sort of have come up with ways to make it a little more engaging so that people you know stick on on the virtual ones, but I did all virtual through COVID and I love to do presentations and I do like I'm doing a couple on resilience next week locally and then I'm doing them for the local PTAs all the time and some businesses. But if you have any parent group it's just a great thing. Yeah, and I can do it. Just so I can I also now have kind of a classic one what the microstep method is and how to start it. And I mean for a working parent, if you're all parents, it's just like how can I take, how can I take advantage of a moment?

Speaker 1: 51:54

Yes, exactly, and and helping to do it. That's how I live my life, yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:58

And interestingly and I haven't written anything on this and I actually haven't read anything on it but someone mentioned to me the other day that there's a big sort of discussion going on in social media of scripts versus not scripts for parents. I don't know if you've seen it, sort of like you know people shouldn't be giving scripts to parents to read to their kids. And what has occurred to me? Because I originally wrote I didn't like scripts. I never wanted scripts, like I was, like I don't need scripts. I know how to talk, but I absolutely could use them.

Speaker 2: 52:26

But is that? Some people don't need them. They've had perfectly normal parenting right and they grew up, or perfectly normal childhood Right. They don't need it. They're not. The normal thing comes out oh, you want a toy? That sounds like a fun to get a toy. Yeah, we're not going to get a toy today, Instead of like, ooh, my terrible mother if we don't get a toy right.

Speaker 2: 52:46

Right, it's two completely different responses and so my original blog didn't have a lot of scripts but I, as I ran it, past people when I did have scripts. They were like I love the scripts. So now everyone of them has scripts. But I think if you have trauma, if you're someone who goes into fight or flight, you need scripts. Because, as you know, your thinking brain is nowhere to be found, and all the kid has done is gotten a B on his math test.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Right.

Speaker 2: 53:15

But your thinking brain has gone out the window and you're like well, how did that happen? How can we didn't study more? What's going to happen? You're never going to get into algebra, whereas the person doesn't go into fight or flight. Oh, they got a B. What went on? What do you think went wrong? Huh, what do you think I did differently next time? But I noticed you really studied hard last night, great job. But if you have trauma or you're triggered which is always, not always trauma sometimes you're just triggered because you're in fear yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:39

It really helps to be able. Oh my God, what am I supposed to say? Oh yeah, I'm just supposed to empathize.

Speaker 1: 53:44

Huh, what was?

Speaker 2: 53:45

that like, and then?

Speaker 1: 53:45

there's all this shame about like what my brain is doing, but literally, folks, the blood is going to a different part of your brain. That's all that's happening. It is a natural human response because before all of this evolution has taken place, we were being chased by tigers and of course, we want our brain, our blood, to shunt to the place that makes us run away. That's what we want, right? So it's a completely natural response. It's nothing to feel guilty about. However, we need to know how to override that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be complex and the scripts do help. I need scripts. I'm all about that. I, my brain goes all sorts of places and if I just have something to say while my brain's doing all the things, if I can.

Speaker 2: 54:30

That's exact, Even if you're not fully in their shoes, which you're supposed to be right.

Speaker 2: 54:34

Even though you're not supposed to be, which is helpful in those moments when you are really in their shoes. You know, don't touch the hot stove. You're like I know you really want to touch that stove. It looks like so much fun to burn your teddy bear in that flame. I totally get that. But the answer is no, it's because you're not in anything right. But in the moment that you are, I love what you say. It may not be fully empathetic, but at least you get the words out.

Speaker 1: 54:57

Yes, and that's all that matters. The right words so that you're not traumatizing your child so they're not doing this later down the road with your grandchildren? Exactly the scripts are for cycle breaking. Essentially, it's exactly. You got to get it from somewhere and the words don't come to me. Some of us are just not words people.

Speaker 2: 55:15

That's why I appreciate it. Yeah, that's right, and because you're stressing, something's happening. Well, that's been great and I love what you're doing. And I'm really wonderful talking to you.

Speaker 1: 55:28

Yeah, I enjoyed these birth stories and maybe your mom can come tell your birth story, which is what originally you were trying to tell us Exactly.

Speaker 2: 55:36

Now I need that one.

Speaker 1: 55:36

Well, I'll tell you what I definitely was a mistake.

Speaker 2: 55:38

I'm sure she was.

Speaker 1: 55:40

Oh, that was odd.

Speaker 2: 55:41

It's all good. I mean, what's it called when you're born under 12 months? I can't think of any words today.

Speaker 1: 55:46

Oh, Irish twins.

Speaker 2: 55:47

I'm an Irish twin.

Speaker 1: 55:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:49

So there's no way my mother wouldn't be pregnant with a two-month-old. So she was probably like get this baby out of me, and was thrilled when I was like perfect, I mean, like I was the you know to take care of everybody person, so I'm sure she doesn't even remember my birth.

Speaker 1: 56:02

You came out and I was happy. You do give her how to be happy. And what do I have to do next?

Speaker 2: 56:07

I was number four or five. They were all pretty close. All right, so that's it, I think right, yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 56:14

This was really fun and I can't wait to read your book.

Speaker 2: 56:17

Well, that's very kind of you, and yeah, so everyone should grab a copy. We'll put some kind of link in and absolutely come and join me.