{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":35.0,"endTime":35.3,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":40.519999999999996,"endTime":45.92,"body":"Welcome to Intentional Teaching, a podcast aimed at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":40.519999999999996,"endTime":45.92,"body":"educators to help them develop foundational teaching"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":45.92,"endTime":52.489999999999995,"body":"skills and explore new ideas and teaching. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":45.92,"endTime":52.489999999999995,"body":"host, Derek Bruff. I hope this podcast helps you be"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":52.489999999999995,"endTime":57.95,"body":"more intentional in how you teach and in how you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":52.489999999999995,"endTime":57.95,"body":"develop as a teacher over time. One of the teaching"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":57.95,"endTime":63.65,"body":"principles I discuss in my book, Intentional Tech,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":57.95,"endTime":63.65,"body":"is the notion that giving students a hard problem or"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":63.65,"endTime":69.32,"body":"challenging experience can help them get ready for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":63.65,"endTime":69.32,"body":"learning. I call this principle time for telling"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":69.44,"endTime":74.96000000000001,"body":"after a paper by Schwartz and Bransford. Part of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":69.44,"endTime":74.96000000000001,"body":"time for telling chapter in the book focuses on the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":74.96000000000001,"endTime":80.78,"body":"use of games both digital and analog as learning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":74.96000000000001,"endTime":80.78,"body":"experiences. This episode is all about games, as"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":80.78,"endTime":87.8,"body":"learning experiences with not one but two interviews"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":80.78,"endTime":87.8,"body":"about the 2023 Cooperative Board game Daybreak, A"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":87.8,"endTime":93.874,"body":"game about Climate Action. Daybreak puts players in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":87.8,"endTime":93.874,"body":"the roles of world powers, building the technologies"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":93.874,"endTime":99.484,"body":"and societies needed for a warming planet. The goal"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":93.874,"endTime":99.484,"body":"of the game is to cut carbon emissions before it"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":99.484,"endTime":105.866,"body":"gets too hot or too many communities are put into"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":99.484,"endTime":105.866,"body":"crisis. Daybreak is designed by Matt Leacock and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":105.866,"endTime":111.986,"body":"Matteo Menapace. If you've paid attention to modern"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":105.866,"endTime":111.986,"body":"board games, you might know Matt Leacock's work."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":112.376,"endTime":118.016,"body":"He's the designer behind the 2008 game pandemic, a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":112.376,"endTime":118.016,"body":"wildly popular cooperative Board game about battling"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":118.016,"endTime":125.423,"body":"a global pandemic. In 2020, during a real life"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":118.016,"endTime":125.423,"body":"global pandemic, Matt and Matteo connected to design"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":125.423,"endTime":130.875,"body":"a game about fighting climate change and the result"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":125.423,"endTime":130.875,"body":"was Daybreak. In this episode, you'll hear from"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":130.875,"endTime":135.79500000000002,"body":"Kerry Whittaker, assistant professor of coastal and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":130.875,"endTime":135.79500000000002,"body":"marine Environmental Science at Maine Maritime"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":135.79500000000002,"endTime":141.225,"body":"Academy, who has the students in her global"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":135.79500000000002,"endTime":141.225,"body":"environmental change course play Daybreak as a final"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":141.225,"endTime":147.555,"body":"learning experience in the course. You'll also hear"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":141.225,"endTime":147.555,"body":"from Mateo Menapace co-designer of Daybreak about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":147.555,"endTime":153.297,"body":"the design of the game as a learning experience."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":147.555,"endTime":153.297,"body":"Whether you teach about climate change and might use"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":153.297,"endTime":157.947,"body":"Daybreak in your courses or you're looking for a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":153.297,"endTime":157.947,"body":"deeper understanding of how learning experiences can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":157.947,"endTime":163.623,"body":"be designed, I think you'll find both of these"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":157.947,"endTime":163.623,"body":"conversations interesting, and I'm excited to share"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":163.623,"endTime":168.873,"body":"these interviews right now as this episode drops"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":163.623,"endTime":168.873,"body":"because Daybreak is a finalist for the prestigious"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":169.14299999999997,"endTime":175.62900000000002,"body":"Kennerspiel des Jahres Game of the Year Award in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":169.14299999999997,"endTime":175.62900000000002,"body":"Germany to be announced on July 21st. So first up,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":175.62900000000002,"endTime":179.04899999999998,"body":"here's my interview with Kerry Whittaker of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":175.62900000000002,"endTime":179.04899999999998,"body":"Maine Maritime Academy."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":182.962,"endTime":188.23199999999997,"body":"Kerry, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I'm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":182.962,"endTime":188.23199999999997,"body":"very excited to talk with you today about this board"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":188.23199999999997,"endTime":191.29199999999997,"body":"game, Daybreak, and how you've been using it in your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":188.23199999999997,"endTime":191.29199999999997,"body":"teaching. And thanks for being here."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":191.952,"endTime":194.622,"body":"Thanks for having me, Derek. This"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":191.952,"endTime":194.622,"body":"is an exciting opportunity."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":194.98199999999997,"endTime":200.59199999999998,"body":"Oh, great. So I'm going to ask my usual"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":194.98199999999997,"endTime":200.59199999999998,"body":"opening question. Can you tell us about a time when"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":200.59199999999998,"endTime":202.752,"body":"you realized you wanted to be an educator?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":203.49,"endTime":204.95999999999998,"body":"That's a great question."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":207.32799999999997,"endTime":214.858,"body":"I think I've always been a really enthusiastic"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":207.32799999999997,"endTime":214.858,"body":"student and I've had incredible educators throughout"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":214.858,"endTime":223.39800000000002,"body":"my my time as a student. But I think the experiences"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":214.858,"endTime":223.39800000000002,"body":"that have really helped to build my identity as a as"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":223.39800000000002,"endTime":225.82799999999997,"body":"an educator were"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":227.538,"endTime":231.378,"body":"really focused on my my work in experiential"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":227.538,"endTime":231.378,"body":"education. So"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":232.846,"endTime":241.00599999999997,"body":"before kind of as as I was learning how to how to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":232.846,"endTime":241.00599999999997,"body":"teach. And in my early earlier career, I was a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":241.00599999999997,"endTime":250.257,"body":"professor of oceanography on sailing tall ships, So"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":241.00599999999997,"endTime":250.257,"body":"taking undergraduates out into the South Pacific and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":250.55700000000002,"endTime":258.747,"body":"the Sargasso Sea international waters on on sailing"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":250.55700000000002,"endTime":258.747,"body":"Oceanographic tall ships doing research for about"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":259.047,"endTime":266.277,"body":"six weeks to two months at a time, and building"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":259.047,"endTime":266.277,"body":"curricula around that in a really dynamic"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":266.277,"endTime":272.577,"body":"environment. So, yeah, kind of being part of a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":266.277,"endTime":272.577,"body":"really intentional learning community, sailing and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":272.907,"endTime":280.677,"body":"working with students and also kind of building the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":272.907,"endTime":280.677,"body":"the experiences of learning around that environment."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":281.797,"endTime":288.877,"body":"So that's really shaped who I am as a educator,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":281.797,"endTime":288.877,"body":"really, even in my work today where I'm not, you"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":288.877,"endTime":297.397,"body":"know, my platform is not a 134 foot sailing tall"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":288.877,"endTime":297.397,"body":"ship. I still really try to weave in what I've"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":297.397,"endTime":302.317,"body":"learned about experiential education and kind of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":297.397,"endTime":302.317,"body":"sharing learning experiences with with students."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":304.05699999999996,"endTime":307.92699999999996,"body":"And yeah, reflecting on that experience as well."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":308.669,"endTime":313.529,"body":"Wow. Okay. So just for context, when"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":308.669,"endTime":313.529,"body":"you say you were you were teaching ocean"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":313.679,"endTime":320.849,"body":"oceanography on these tall ships, what, like you're"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":313.679,"endTime":320.849,"body":"you're you're you're more of a biologist than"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":320.849,"endTime":324.05899999999997,"body":"anything from what I read. Is that is that accurate"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":320.849,"endTime":324.05899999999997,"body":"to say?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":325.049,"endTime":327.539,"body":"I'm an ocean. I'm a biological"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":325.049,"endTime":327.539,"body":"oceanographer."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":327.719,"endTime":328.49899999999997,"body":"Okay. All right."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":328.50899999999996,"endTime":328.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":329.339,"endTime":330.11899999999997,"body":"So what does that mean?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":330.86899999999997,"endTime":336.239,"body":"That means I study. I study life"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":330.86899999999997,"endTime":336.239,"body":"forms and biology in the ocean."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":337.829,"endTime":343.109,"body":"But really looking at those life forms in a holistic"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":344.22499999999997,"endTime":351.66499999999996,"body":"interdisciplinary context. So looking at how life is"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":344.22499999999997,"endTime":351.66499999999996,"body":"shaped by the chemistry and the geology and the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":351.66499999999996,"endTime":357.155,"body":"physics of the ocean, I think that's one thing that"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":351.66499999999996,"endTime":357.155,"body":"distinguishes oceanographers from marine biologists,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":357.155,"endTime":363.215,"body":"is having kind of this systems approach to looking"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":357.155,"endTime":363.215,"body":"at things like gene flow and marine populations,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":363.215,"endTime":370.925,"body":"oceans and how evolution happens and productivity."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":363.215,"endTime":370.925,"body":"So, okay, I'm I'm a biological oceanographer. I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":370.925,"endTime":371.34499999999997,"body":"would say."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":371.875,"endTime":376.53499999999997,"body":"Okay, I have only worked at Landlocked"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":371.875,"endTime":376.53499999999997,"body":"institutions. So this is not a discipline I'm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":376.53499999999997,"endTime":384.60499999999996,"body":"familiar with. And now you're at Maine Maritime"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":376.53499999999997,"endTime":384.60499999999996,"body":"Academy, which I take it is also not like an"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":384.60499999999996,"endTime":390.60499999999996,"body":"institution you would find in the middle of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":384.60499999999996,"endTime":390.60499999999996,"body":"Tennessee, Right? What what makes your institution"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":390.60499999999996,"endTime":392.22499999999997,"body":"interesting to teach at?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":393.203,"endTime":398.53299999999996,"body":"Yeah, I mean, the Maritime"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":393.203,"endTime":398.53299999999996,"body":"academies are an incredible resource in the U.S."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":398.543,"endTime":407.792,"body":"It's these academies, train merchant mariners in a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":398.543,"endTime":407.792,"body":"variety of fields of how to drive and navigate"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":407.792,"endTime":416.702,"body":"vessels and engineering. And a part of our our"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":407.792,"endTime":416.702,"body":"student body will leave with with Coast Guard"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":416.702,"endTime":417.632,"body":"licenses."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":418.282,"endTime":418.592,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":418.99199999999996,"endTime":424.642,"body":"Basically unlimited tonnage. I am"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":418.99199999999996,"endTime":424.642,"body":"in the ocean studies,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":424.652,"endTime":427.62199999999996,"body":"meaning. They will be qualified to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":424.652,"endTime":427.62199999999996,"body":"drive a boat of any size."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":428.042,"endTime":428.582,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":428.792,"endTime":429.752,"body":"Okay. All right."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":429.902,"endTime":436.05199999999996,"body":"You know of some of my my students"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":429.902,"endTime":436.05199999999996,"body":"in in the Ocean Studies department. I'm in the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":436.05199999999996,"endTime":445.022,"body":"Corning School of Ocean Studies and we focus on on"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":436.05199999999996,"endTime":445.022,"body":"oceanography, marine biology, a brand new program of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":445.022,"endTime":451.592,"body":"coastal and marine environmental science as our"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":445.022,"endTime":451.592,"body":"program. So our students are science driven, science"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":451.592,"endTime":457.442,"body":"based. They'll leave with with a bachelor's of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":451.592,"endTime":457.442,"body":"science. Some of those students will also get Coast"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":457.442,"endTime":466.082,"body":"Guard licenses. So, yeah, it's a really unique place"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":457.442,"endTime":466.082,"body":"to work because there's this like really practical"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":466.082,"endTime":472.11199999999997,"body":"teaching and learning that's happening and and also"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":466.082,"endTime":472.11199999999997,"body":"kind of more, more traditional science science"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":472.11199999999997,"endTime":474.152,"body":"education that's happening. At the same time."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":474.392,"endTime":478.322,"body":"I'm just remembering on my former"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":474.392,"endTime":478.322,"body":"podcast, I interviewed some theology professors who"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":478.322,"endTime":482.37199999999996,"body":"taught on a farm and they had this whole kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":478.322,"endTime":482.37199999999996,"body":"theology of farming"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":483.752,"endTime":484.202,"body":"That's amazing,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":484.202,"endTime":490.952,"body":"and you're about as as far away from my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":484.202,"endTime":490.952,"body":"calculus classes as that as that crew was. This is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":490.952,"endTime":496.502,"body":"fascinating. Okay. So the course you used the game"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":490.952,"endTime":496.502,"body":"in is called."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":497.402,"endTime":498.332,"body":"Global Environment."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":498.332,"endTime":502.562,"body":"Environmental Change. Okay. So what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":498.332,"endTime":502.562,"body":"tell us about that course. What are what are the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":502.562,"endTime":505.592,"body":"goals of that course and kind of how does it fit"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":502.562,"endTime":505.592,"body":"into this new major?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":506.055,"endTime":512.535,"body":"Yeah, great. Yes. So global"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":506.055,"endTime":512.535,"body":"environmental change was is part of the newest"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":512.535,"endTime":518.115,"body":"program at in the Corning School of Ocean Studies at"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":512.535,"endTime":518.115,"body":"MMA, the Coastal and Marine Environmental Science"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":518.115,"endTime":526.931,"body":"Major, and through Global environmental change, we"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":518.115,"endTime":526.931,"body":"which I co-designed with my colleague Stephen Baer"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":526.931,"endTime":529.931,"body":"at its first iteration in 2021"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":531.671,"endTime":537.791,"body":"and our focus is to introduce students to the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":531.671,"endTime":537.791,"body":"science of climate change so that they walk away"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":537.791,"endTime":546.221,"body":"with a really strong handle on yeah, of all of the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":537.791,"endTime":546.221,"body":"science related to warming, biodiversity loss, all"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":546.221,"endTime":552.611,"body":"of the changes that we're experiencing in our"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":546.221,"endTime":552.611,"body":"natural systems really using the primary scientific"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":552.611,"endTime":558.701,"body":"literature to build that foundation and the work of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":552.611,"endTime":558.701,"body":"the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":558.701,"endTime":566.951,"body":"well, kind of the the body that comes together to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":558.701,"endTime":566.951,"body":"make these predictions of how our our earth will"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":566.951,"endTime":573.731,"body":"react to the forces that we've put on it. And then"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":566.951,"endTime":573.731,"body":"another goal of the course is to to look at the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":573.731,"endTime":578.741,"body":"human side of of climate change. So governance"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":573.731,"endTime":578.741,"body":"structures, policy"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":580.3910000000001,"endTime":589.361,"body":"and the way that we make decisions about our future"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":580.3910000000001,"endTime":589.361,"body":"sustainability. So it's it's it's a big topic to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":589.361,"endTime":589.7810000000001,"body":"handle."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":590.1210000000001,"endTime":590.6210000000001,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":590.6210000000001,"endTime":597.941,"body":"It's class it's a lot. But we do"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":590.6210000000001,"endTime":597.941,"body":"try to kind of cover the the both the social and the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":597.941,"endTime":601.432,"body":"and the natural systems as well."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":601.432,"endTime":605.6320000000001,"body":"And I'll say just for maybe the benefit"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":601.432,"endTime":605.6320000000001,"body":"of some of our listeners, that sounds like a course"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":605.6320000000001,"endTime":611.062,"body":"you might find at other institutions, right? It may"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":605.6320000000001,"endTime":611.062,"body":"and may have a slightly different focus, but it does"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":611.062,"endTime":618.172,"body":"sound like a type of course I hear faculty are are"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":611.062,"endTime":618.172,"body":"teaching often that and it's usually kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":618.172,"endTime":626.159,"body":"challenging, right? It's complex material. It's very"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":618.172,"endTime":626.159,"body":"interdisciplinary material and it sounds like you've"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":626.399,"endTime":627.089,"body":"team taught it as well."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":627.6890000000001,"endTime":632.849,"body":"Yeah, we team it, taught it the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":627.6890000000001,"endTime":632.849,"body":"first year and then I have been going solo with it"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":632.849,"endTime":634.739,"body":"for the for the past couple of years."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":635.099,"endTime":641.065,"body":"Okay. Yeah. Well, now let's talk about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":635.099,"endTime":641.065,"body":"this board game Daybreak. How did you hear about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":641.065,"endTime":643.885,"body":"Daybreak and what led you to use it in this course?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":645.556,"endTime":651.616,"body":"I heard about the development of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":645.556,"endTime":651.616,"body":"Daybreak. I think it was it was as we were"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":651.616,"endTime":657.706,"body":"developing the course, like in 2021. And I think it"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":651.616,"endTime":657.706,"body":"was a New York Times article. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":659.806,"endTime":670.2760000000001,"body":"and I you know, it was as we were thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":659.806,"endTime":670.2760000000001,"body":"course and ways to weave in elements of future"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":670.2760000000001,"endTime":681.739,"body":"narratives and building hope into into a course that"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":670.2760000000001,"endTime":681.739,"body":"is as heavy as as global environmental change. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":683.119,"endTime":688.639,"body":"yeah, it was just I was really curious about the the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":683.119,"endTime":688.639,"body":"process of that game development. And I think in the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":688.639,"endTime":695.4190000000001,"body":"article they mentioned that Matt and Mateo were"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":688.639,"endTime":695.4190000000001,"body":"looking for play testers,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":697.129,"endTime":704.089,"body":"and Steven and I thought that it would be a perfect"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":697.129,"endTime":704.089,"body":"opportunity to kind of have our of our class and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":704.089,"endTime":711.019,"body":"have our students be involved in the development of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":704.089,"endTime":711.019,"body":"of the game as we were also developing a new course"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":711.349,"endTime":716.899,"body":"at our institution focused on global environmental"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":711.349,"endTime":716.899,"body":"change. So kind of having having that opportunity"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":716.899,"endTime":724.039,"body":"again for experiential learning and involving"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":716.899,"endTime":724.039,"body":"students and yeah, to both both see kind of what"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":724.039,"endTime":731.779,"body":"goes into that type of game development, but also"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":724.039,"endTime":731.779,"body":"using what we've learned from the class to apply it"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":731.779,"endTime":740.359,"body":"to critiquing the game and thinking about the way"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":731.779,"endTime":740.359,"body":"that science is being integrated into a complex game"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":740.359,"endTime":747.9190000000001,"body":"and other elements of climate change, governance and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":740.359,"endTime":747.9190000000001,"body":"policy. And so, yeah, it's that's why I reached out"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":747.9190000000001,"endTime":751.969,"body":"to Matt and Mateo and they signed us up as play"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":747.9190000000001,"endTime":751.969,"body":"testers."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":752.9290000000001,"endTime":757.369,"body":"That's great. So, so yeah, what did"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":752.9290000000001,"endTime":757.369,"body":"that what did that first experience with the game in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":757.369,"endTime":763.339,"body":"the course look like? What what role did it play and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":757.369,"endTime":763.339,"body":"kind of how did you, how were you a play tester as a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":763.339,"endTime":763.879,"body":"class?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":764.789,"endTime":766.0790000000001,"body":"Yeah. So actually"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":767.7470000000001,"endTime":775.4870000000001,"body":"first they sent us a copy of the game kind of in,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":767.7470000000001,"endTime":775.4870000000001,"body":"you know, in early form, and I wanted to try it out"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":775.4870000000001,"endTime":784.6370000000001,"body":"first before having students be involved. So I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":775.4870000000001,"endTime":784.6370000000001,"body":"actually invited a group of colleagues and friends"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":784.6370000000001,"endTime":793.067,"body":"and and we did kind of our first round of testing."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":784.6370000000001,"endTime":793.067,"body":"And it was challenging in that early, early stages"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":793.067,"endTime":800.957,"body":"of the game. It's it's so refined now. Like I have"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":793.067,"endTime":800.957,"body":"the I have the final version now, but, you know,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":801.017,"endTime":807.6170000000001,"body":"like we struggled through it kind of that first"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":801.017,"endTime":807.6170000000001,"body":"first playing of the game, but we thought it would"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":807.6170000000001,"endTime":814.6070000000001,"body":"be a it would still be a really great opportunity"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":807.6170000000001,"endTime":814.6070000000001,"body":"for for students to kind of be involved. So our"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":814.6070000000001,"endTime":822.077,"body":"first students engaged playing of the game happened"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":814.6070000000001,"endTime":822.077,"body":"at the end of of that first semester that we taught"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":822.077,"endTime":828.917,"body":"the course and we used it as a culminating moment."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":822.077,"endTime":828.917,"body":"So as a way for students to kind of think about"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":828.917,"endTime":835.152,"body":"everything that they learned in the course and apply"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":828.917,"endTime":835.152,"body":"it to evaluating this game. And I guess another kind"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":835.152,"endTime":839.652,"body":"of interesting thing that is involved in our our"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":835.152,"endTime":839.652,"body":"course is"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":841.212,"endTime":849.042,"body":"we alongside reviewing the scientific literature, we"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":841.212,"endTime":849.042,"body":"have I have students choose a book of fiction to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":849.042,"endTime":849.4920000000001,"body":"read"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":851.4720000000001,"endTime":859.0020000000001,"body":"because, you know, part of kind of cultivating hope,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":851.4720000000001,"endTime":859.0020000000001,"body":"thinking about a future narrative for climate change."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":859.542,"endTime":867.039,"body":"I think fiction can be a really safe and engaging"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":859.542,"endTime":867.039,"body":"place to imagine what a future can be. So that first"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":867.039,"endTime":873.339,"body":"semester, the students chose to read Kim Stanley"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":867.039,"endTime":873.339,"body":"Robinson's Ministry for the Future."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":873.849,"endTime":876.369,"body":"Okay, which is so this was a class read."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":876.369,"endTime":877.4490000000001,"body":"This was a class."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":877.899,"endTime":880.509,"body":"They did they didn't pick their"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":877.899,"endTime":880.509,"body":"individual novels, but they"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":880.719,"endTime":886.359,"body":"Nope. Yeah, yeah. They, they choose"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":880.719,"endTime":886.359,"body":"and they vote. They vote on a topic in that first"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":886.359,"endTime":892.629,"body":"year. Ken Kim, Stanley Robinson's Ministry for the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":886.359,"endTime":892.629,"body":"Future actually aligns really, really well with with"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":892.629,"endTime":900.0690000000001,"body":"Daybreak The Game. And I know that Matt and Mateo, I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":892.629,"endTime":900.0690000000001,"body":"think they used an incredible array of resources to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":900.0690000000001,"endTime":906.099,"body":"build the game. But I believe that Ministry for the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":900.0690000000001,"endTime":906.099,"body":"Future is also kind of a guiding, a guiding"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":906.099,"endTime":913.688,"body":"narrative that helped develop that. So we saw a lot"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":906.099,"endTime":913.688,"body":"of a lot of connections when we played. We played"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":913.688,"endTime":914.168,"body":"Daybreak."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":914.1980000000001,"endTime":919.808,"body":"Yeah. So So you said that you had the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":914.1980000000001,"endTime":919.808,"body":"students play the game at the end of the semester."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":921.057,"endTime":926.8470000000001,"body":"Why did you pick that time to have them playtest it"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":921.057,"endTime":926.8470000000001,"body":"as opposed to some other time in the course?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":927.245,"endTime":930.965,"body":"Yeah, that's a great question. The"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":927.245,"endTime":930.965,"body":"end of the semester"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":933.2750000000001,"endTime":940.9250000000001,"body":"was a great time to have them them play this game"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":933.2750000000001,"endTime":940.9250000000001,"body":"because we have had basically gone through different"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":941.4050000000001,"endTime":947.495,"body":"important elements of climate change separately,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":941.4050000000001,"endTime":947.495,"body":"like looking at tipping points, looking at natural"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":947.495,"endTime":956.063,"body":"systems, response to radiative forcing, looking at"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":947.495,"endTime":956.063,"body":"kind of the governance systems, what kind of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":956.063,"endTime":963.023,"body":"policies are in place already about climate change,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":956.063,"endTime":963.023,"body":"You know, the Paris climate agreement or tuning into"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":963.023,"endTime":969.4530000000001,"body":"the conference, UN conference of the party meetings"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":963.023,"endTime":969.4530000000001,"body":"that conveniently happen at the same time we're"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":969.4730000000001,"endTime":976.2230000000001,"body":"teaching the course. So kind of looking at these"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":969.4730000000001,"endTime":976.2230000000001,"body":"different elements of climate change separately. But"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":976.8230000000001,"endTime":984.2030000000001,"body":"climate change is is described as a wicked problem"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":976.8230000000001,"endTime":984.2030000000001,"body":"that involves all of these elements simultaneously"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":985.2230000000001,"endTime":993.743,"body":"and how they interact, right? So natural systems,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":985.2230000000001,"endTime":993.743,"body":"economics, policy, social resilience, infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":993.743,"endTime":1000.8230000000001,"body":"resilience, these are these are all kind of baked in"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":993.743,"endTime":1000.8230000000001,"body":"to the challenge of addressing climate change. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1000.8530000000001,"endTime":1003.9730000000001,"body":"it's like we we have to work on them all at once."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1005.383,"endTime":1014.3230000000001,"body":"And the game has allowed us to really kind of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1005.383,"endTime":1014.3230000000001,"body":"explore how these different pieces interact and work"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1014.3230000000001,"endTime":1022.4530000000001,"body":"together. And I think it's a it's a it's a really"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1014.3230000000001,"endTime":1022.4530000000001,"body":"effective tool of seeing how these, like, these"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1022.4530000000001,"endTime":1030.5529999999999,"body":"wicked problems can be can be addressed. I won't say"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1022.4530000000001,"endTime":1030.5529999999999,"body":"solved because like how will we know if we solve"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1031.003,"endTime":1039.22,"body":"climate change. Yeah. As a way to kind of to kind of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1031.003,"endTime":1039.22,"body":"play with all of the different solutions that we we"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1039.22,"endTime":1046.69,"body":"had talked about in class and the students had"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1039.22,"endTime":1046.69,"body":"explored. And then provide that kind of free space"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1046.69,"endTime":1054.37,"body":"to look at what combinations of solutions or the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1046.69,"endTime":1054.37,"body":"kind of the process of how these social and natural"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1054.37,"endTime":1059.1599999999999,"body":"elements kind of can come together to address"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1054.37,"endTime":1059.1599999999999,"body":"address climate change."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1060.03,"endTime":1064.8899999999999,"body":"So let's drill down that kind of almost"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1060.03,"endTime":1064.8899999999999,"body":"the lesson plan level. Like what what did that week"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1064.8899999999999,"endTime":1069.24,"body":"of the class look like in terms of the the kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1064.8899999999999,"endTime":1069.24,"body":"sequence of things you had students do."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1069.9199999999998,"endTime":1071.3,"body":"For the for the gameplay."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1071.33,"endTime":1072.0,"body":"For the game play?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1072.35,"endTime":1079.25,"body":"Yeah. So we you know, we first"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1072.35,"endTime":1079.25,"body":"reviewed the directions of how to play."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1079.26,"endTime":1080.1499999999999,"body":"Oh right. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1081.9499999999998,"endTime":1086.09,"body":"Because it's, it's actually pretty"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1081.9499999999998,"endTime":1086.09,"body":"complicated so that we were prepared."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1086.09,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"Just for. Context. You're not like an"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1086.09,"endTime":1091.22,"body":"avid board game player. You don't have a shelf with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1091.22,"endTime":1092.84,"body":"a hundred different board games on it, right?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1093.02,"endTime":1098.72,"body":"I don't, I don't. But actually that"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1093.02,"endTime":1098.72,"body":"first year we played and actually in subsequent"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1098.72,"endTime":1107.0,"body":"years, I've always had one or two students in the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1098.72,"endTime":1107.0,"body":"class that are like so into it, so into board games."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1107.0,"endTime":1114.59,"body":"And they and they bring their expertise in to the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1107.0,"endTime":1114.59,"body":"table, which is really helpful. So yeah, so the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1114.59,"endTime":1121.01,"body":"first like, yeah, the lesson plan for that week is,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1114.59,"endTime":1121.01,"body":"is first like all reading the instructions so that"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1121.01,"endTime":1128.1799999999998,"body":"we can come in for our I think we reserved like a it"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1121.01,"endTime":1128.1799999999998,"body":"was during finals week, so we had a three hour time"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1128.1799999999998,"endTime":1128.51,"body":"slot."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1128.87,"endTime":1129.47,"body":"Oh okay."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1133.73,"body":"Actually play play the game. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1129.53,"endTime":1133.73,"body":"then"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1134.6599999999999,"endTime":1137.6,"body":"so. Did they have a final exam or"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1134.6599999999999,"endTime":1137.6,"body":"project as well?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1138.35,"endTime":1139.01,"body":"This was it."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1139.28,"endTime":1141.9199999999998,"body":"This was that. This was the final"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1139.28,"endTime":1141.9199999999998,"body":"experience. I love it."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1142.1299999999999,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"Okay. So they did. They did have a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1142.1299999999999,"endTime":1144.23,"body":"final project."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1144.6799999999998,"endTime":1144.87,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1144.8899999999999,"endTime":1145.82,"body":"For the class."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1146.4499999999998,"endTime":1146.81,"body":"Gotcha."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1146.8999999999999,"endTime":1153.1399999999999,"body":"Their final project was to do a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1146.8999999999999,"endTime":1153.1399999999999,"body":"case study on an environmental change solution and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1153.6799999999998,"endTime":1160.9399999999998,"body":"run run a series of interviews. And so they did have"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1153.6799999999998,"endTime":1160.9399999999998,"body":"a final project. But in terms of like a full group,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1161.3,"endTime":1168.77,"body":"yeah, final experience that we chose to and I have"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1161.3,"endTime":1168.77,"body":"continued to choose this game as as that culminating"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1168.77,"endTime":1169.1599999999999,"body":"moment."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1169.73,"endTime":1174.26,"body":"I love that. So there is an astronomer"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1169.73,"endTime":1174.26,"body":"I know at Elon University, Tony Crider, and he wrote"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1174.29,"endTime":1180.5,"body":"an essay several years ago about he called it Epic"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1174.29,"endTime":1180.5,"body":"Finales. He he was in this moment where I think he"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1180.5,"endTime":1185.4499999999998,"body":"was giving the final exam and one of the astronomy"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1180.5,"endTime":1185.4499999999998,"body":"courses. And he thought my last interaction with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1185.4499999999998,"endTime":1191.33,"body":"this group of students that I've had such a great"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1185.4499999999998,"endTime":1191.33,"body":"semester with is this very formal, high pressure,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1191.81,"endTime":1196.85,"body":"stressful thing. And he's like, I don't want that to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1191.81,"endTime":1196.85,"body":"be my last interaction with them. And so he started"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1196.85,"endTime":1203.27,"body":"exploring kind of more experiential things that you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1196.85,"endTime":1203.27,"body":"could do for a final exam is not even the right word,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1203.27,"endTime":1208.34,"body":"right, But taking advantage of that three hour time."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1203.27,"endTime":1208.34,"body":"So I love that. Okay. All right. So you had read the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1208.34,"endTime":1210.56,"body":"directions. You had a three hour block to play the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1208.34,"endTime":1210.56,"body":"game."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1210.9199999999998,"endTime":1217.28,"body":"Yep. And actually, so like, back to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1210.9199999999998,"endTime":1217.28,"body":"that, the final, final experience element in the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1217.28,"endTime":1224.21,"body":"syllabus, we we have listed that the final exam is"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1217.28,"endTime":1224.21,"body":"for students to solve climate change."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1225.9299999999998,"endTime":1226.4099999999999,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1226.8899999999999,"endTime":1227.9399999999998,"body":"And then we play this game."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1228.21,"endTime":1234.8999999999999,"body":"Okay. So so which does have a winning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1228.21,"endTime":1234.8999999999999,"body":"state, right? There's a way to win the game. And you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1234.8999999999999,"endTime":1237.1499999999999,"body":"know that it's possible."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1237.1499999999999,"endTime":1242.07,"body":"It's really hard. That's why I you"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1237.1499999999999,"endTime":1242.07,"body":"know, I love this game. It's it's very difficult to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1242.07,"endTime":1249.21,"body":"win and I think it highlights that it's it is"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1242.07,"endTime":1249.21,"body":"possible, but it's going to take a lot of work. So,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1249.21,"endTime":1258.6899999999998,"body":"yeah, then we play we play the game for about 3"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1249.21,"endTime":1258.6899999999998,"body":"hours or so. And in that first first iteration, we"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1258.6899999999998,"endTime":1268.62,"body":"had the students individually either create kind of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1258.6899999999998,"endTime":1268.62,"body":"like a video review or written review of of the game"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1268.62,"endTime":1273.27,"body":"and relate it to things that they've learned"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1268.62,"endTime":1273.27,"body":"throughout the semester. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1275.32,"endTime":1279.58,"body":"yeah, so that was, that was kind of another, another"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1275.32,"endTime":1279.58,"body":"element of that initial play testing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1280.54,"endTime":1285.76,"body":"right? Because the first time you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1280.54,"endTime":1285.76,"body":"didn't have a finished game And so like I imagine"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1285.76,"endTime":1291.02,"body":"there was an opportunity to give feedback to the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1285.76,"endTime":1291.02,"body":"game designers and also maybe a way for students to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1291.02,"endTime":1295.31,"body":"kind of critique the game, right, based on what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1291.02,"endTime":1295.31,"body":"they've learned all semester. So is that was that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1295.31,"endTime":1296.75,"body":"part of part of that process?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1297.02,"endTime":1303.62,"body":"That was part of that process the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1297.02,"endTime":1303.62,"body":"first year and we submitted submitted those those"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1303.62,"endTime":1310.22,"body":"review reviews and reflections to Matt and Mateo."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1303.62,"endTime":1310.22,"body":"Yeah, Yeah. And in subsequent years we've had, we've"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1310.22,"endTime":1318.9499999999998,"body":"had debrief, so we play the game and then we have a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1310.22,"endTime":1318.9499999999998,"body":"collaborative debrief on how, how it went and what"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1318.9499999999998,"endTime":1321.85,"body":"we learned and yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1322.1799999999998,"endTime":1327.07,"body":"So how did the students react to this?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1322.1799999999998,"endTime":1327.07,"body":"What have? You mentioned a couple of them geek out"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1327.07,"endTime":1332.3799999999999,"body":"and I can relate to those students, but in general,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1327.07,"endTime":1332.3799999999999,"body":"how do they, how do they react to the game and the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1332.3799999999999,"endTime":1333.6699999999998,"body":"kind of the debrief experience?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1334.1299999999999,"endTime":1341.0,"body":"Um, I, they, they seemed to love it."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1334.1299999999999,"endTime":1341.0,"body":"I think the collaborative nature of the game allows"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1341.0,"endTime":1348.83,"body":"them to work with one another in a in a way that"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1341.0,"endTime":1348.83,"body":"like, relies on their their different strengths and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1348.83,"endTime":1356.96,"body":"interests. They have fun, fun with it. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1348.83,"endTime":1356.96,"body":"not a game that, you know, it's a collaborative game."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1357.11,"endTime":1366.6299999999999,"body":"And so we have students work in teams to represent"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1357.11,"endTime":1366.6299999999999,"body":"the different world powers. I guess I don't know how"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1366.6399999999999,"endTime":1368.59,"body":"they phrase those world powers or."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1370.1499999999999,"endTime":1375.6599999999999,"body":"Right in the game like one player can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1370.1499999999999,"endTime":1375.6599999999999,"body":"be the U.S. and one player can be China and one"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1375.6699999999998,"endTime":1379.8999999999999,"body":"player can be Europe. And then there's the majority"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1375.6699999999998,"endTime":1379.8999999999999,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1380.28,"endTime":1381.0,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1381.1,"endTime":1386.02,"body":"So you played one game as a class. It's"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1381.1,"endTime":1386.02,"body":"not that you had like five or six tables set up with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1386.01,"endTime":1386.8799999999999,"body":"copies of the game."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1387.24,"endTime":1393.61,"body":"Correct? Yeah. And even even within"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1387.24,"endTime":1393.61,"body":"like, yeah, the U.S. or China or majority world, I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1393.61,"endTime":1397.33,"body":"have multiple students that are like representing"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1393.61,"endTime":1397.33,"body":"that and."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1397.33,"endTime":1400.6899999999998,"body":"They have to kind of get together and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1397.33,"endTime":1400.6899999999998,"body":"decide what actions are we going to take this round"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1400.6899999999998,"endTime":1401.1999999999998,"body":"in the game."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1401.4099999999999,"endTime":1407.02,"body":"Exactly. Okay. So it's yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1401.4099999999999,"endTime":1407.02,"body":"think it's a great a great opportunity for them to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1407.01,"endTime":1408.22,"body":"interact. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1409.47,"endTime":1414.49,"body":"and so we're kind of struggling through sometimes"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1409.47,"endTime":1414.49,"body":"some of the decisions that need to be made"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1416.04,"endTime":1425.52,"body":"and I think they have fun with it. You know, it's a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1416.04,"endTime":1425.52,"body":"we have snacks and things like that. Yeah, But yeah,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1425.51,"endTime":1431.79,"body":"I think they've, I think they've enjoyed it. I've"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1425.51,"endTime":1431.79,"body":"had students who, you know, the the game is now"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1431.78,"endTime":1440.28,"body":"publicly available. So as a former student that I've"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1431.78,"endTime":1440.28,"body":"been in touch with recently who was really excited"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1440.27,"endTime":1442.47,"body":"to buy his own copy of the game."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1444.1699999999998,"endTime":1446.57,"body":"So yeah, it's it's fun and challenging."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1447.55,"endTime":1452.86,"body":"So you mentioned earlier that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1447.55,"endTime":1452.86,"body":"oceanography involves a lot of systems thinking. Mm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1453.79,"endTime":1461.98,"body":"And I feel like that's something that board games"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1453.79,"endTime":1461.98,"body":"can teach, right? When I interviewed Matteo, he said"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1461.98,"endTime":1467.61,"body":"that every board game teaches you something. If it's,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1461.98,"endTime":1467.61,"body":"if it's just how to play the game, it's teaching you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1467.61,"endTime":1472.08,"body":"that right. It may teach you other things as well."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1467.61,"endTime":1472.08,"body":"But but every board game is a set of systems that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1472.08,"endTime":1478.1399999999999,"body":"interact some simple, some complex, and then you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1472.08,"endTime":1478.1399999999999,"body":"have to kind of learn how they interact. But this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1478.1399999999999,"endTime":1486.0,"body":"one is modeled on actual systems in the real world."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1478.1399999999999,"endTime":1486.0,"body":"And so do you think do you see a kind of, I don't"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1486.0,"endTime":1491.35,"body":"know, maybe some light bulb moments with students"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1486.0,"endTime":1491.35,"body":"where they the the systems thinking becomes clear to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1491.35,"endTime":1493.12,"body":"them as a result of playing this game?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1494.26,"endTime":1501.52,"body":"Yeah, I think I think so. You know,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1494.26,"endTime":1501.52,"body":"there's certain value judgments that are placed in"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1501.52,"endTime":1507.9099999999999,"body":"the game on like what what the sustainable future"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1501.52,"endTime":1507.9099999999999,"body":"looks like. You know, it's not just about reducing"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1507.9099999999999,"endTime":1517.85,"body":"greenhouse gas emissions, it's about it's about"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1507.9099999999999,"endTime":1517.85,"body":"having resilient communities as well as an essential"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1517.85,"endTime":1525.51,"body":"element of sustainability. So yeah, I think for"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1517.85,"endTime":1525.51,"body":"students seeing that that's that that's reflected in"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1525.51,"endTime":1533.4199999999998,"body":"this model model for the future through gameplay is,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1525.51,"endTime":1533.4199999999998,"body":"is really helpful and important. This is maybe kind"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1533.4199999999998,"endTime":1544.34,"body":"of a like a side note, but in that kind of systems"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1533.4199999999998,"endTime":1544.34,"body":"thinking, I look to the IPCC as a guiding source of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1544.34,"endTime":1553.57,"body":"information on on climate change and envisioning the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1544.34,"endTime":1553.57,"body":"future. And I, I use that in my classes extensively."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1554.6899999999998,"endTime":1557.03,"body":"The IPCC has shifted to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1558.29,"endTime":1559.07,"body":"this"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1560.57,"endTime":1571.6699999999998,"body":"process of looking at shared socioeconomic pathways"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1560.57,"endTime":1571.6699999999998,"body":"for predicting how society might react in the future"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1571.6699999999998,"endTime":1578.6599999999999,"body":"to mitigate and adapt to climate change. So instead"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1571.6699999999998,"endTime":1578.6599999999999,"body":"of just looking at greenhouse gas emissions and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1578.6599999999999,"endTime":1585.11,"body":"projecting what kind of the future outlook will be"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1578.6599999999999,"endTime":1585.11,"body":"for that, they have paired that with this concept"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1585.11,"endTime":1592.3999999999999,"body":"called shared socioeconomic pathways, and there are"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1585.11,"endTime":1592.3999999999999,"body":"essentially different narratives for the future of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1592.3999999999999,"endTime":1599.9299999999998,"body":"how of how society will either like the political,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1592.3999999999999,"endTime":1599.9299999999998,"body":"the political setting or a social social setting"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1599.9299999999998,"endTime":1609.6,"body":"that can yeah, can be part of our our future. And"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1599.9299999999998,"endTime":1609.6,"body":"that involves elements of of resilience, social"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1609.6,"endTime":1617.9099999999999,"body":"resilience. So I think that, you know, the board"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1609.6,"endTime":1617.9099999999999,"body":"game is really helpful because it provides that not"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1617.9099999999999,"endTime":1624.6,"body":"just like the technical elements of greenhouse"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1617.9099999999999,"endTime":1624.6,"body":"reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but also the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1624.6,"endTime":1630.54,"body":"other economic and social pieces that need to come"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1624.6,"endTime":1630.54,"body":"together. And I think for students interacting with"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1630.54,"endTime":1640.3999999999999,"body":"the board game, it's yeah, kind of a light bulb"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1630.54,"endTime":1640.3999999999999,"body":"moment, bulb moment that the game developers game"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1640.3999999999999,"endTime":1644.57,"body":"developers have have thought of kind of all these"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1640.3999999999999,"endTime":1644.57,"body":"different pieces and how they interact."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1644.75,"endTime":1650.1799999999998,"body":"So a couple of years ago for my old"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1644.75,"endTime":1650.1799999999998,"body":"podcast, I interviewed Patrick Rael, who is a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1650.1799999999998,"endTime":1657.82,"body":"history professor at Bowdoin College, also in Maine,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1650.1799999999998,"endTime":1657.82,"body":"and he uses board games to teach history. And he"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1657.82,"endTime":1664.08,"body":"said he used a term I've only really heard from"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1657.82,"endTime":1664.08,"body":"history folks. He says board games are"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1664.09,"endTime":1667.74,"body":"counterfactuals. They are kind of necessarily"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1669.6699999999998,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"they don't have prescribed actions like a jigsaw"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1669.6699999999998,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"puzzle, right? You know what the outcome of a jigsaw"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1675.82,"endTime":1680.71,"body":"puzzle is supposed to be? And it may take work to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1675.82,"endTime":1680.71,"body":"get there, but there's there's not like choices to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1680.71,"endTime":1687.61,"body":"make along the way. Right. Yeah. And so he says that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1680.71,"endTime":1687.61,"body":"board games help help students explore kind of what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1687.61,"endTime":1694.57,"body":"if scenarios what if history had gone this other way"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1687.61,"endTime":1694.57,"body":"instead of the way that it did? Does that notion of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1694.57,"endTime":1698.02,"body":"counterfactual resonate with you in in the use of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1694.57,"endTime":1698.02,"body":"Daybreak?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1698.77,"endTime":1708.21,"body":"It does. And I think it relates to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1698.77,"endTime":1708.21,"body":"our need for a future narrative of of climate change."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1708.21,"endTime":1715.1599999999999,"body":"And and even in in predicting being able to predict"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1708.21,"endTime":1715.1599999999999,"body":"what the future looks like is reliant on these on"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1715.1599999999999,"endTime":1726.99,"body":"these narratives of of how society will will act to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1715.1599999999999,"endTime":1726.99,"body":"reduce greenhouse gases and and build equitable and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1726.99,"endTime":1735.87,"body":"sustainable solutions. So having, you know, as I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1726.99,"endTime":1735.87,"body":"said, the IPCC is already has has built in those"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1735.87,"endTime":1741.84,"body":"future narratives in predicting future climate"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1735.87,"endTime":1741.84,"body":"change impacts"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1743.8899999999999,"endTime":1751.33,"body":"and this board game allows students to not just kind"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1743.8899999999999,"endTime":1751.33,"body":"of read about what the future might be in these"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1751.33,"endTime":1758.47,"body":"predictions, but actually design them and interact"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1751.33,"endTime":1758.47,"body":"with them and build them themselves. The"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1758.47,"endTime":1765.73,"body":"counterfactual idea relates very nicely to history,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1758.47,"endTime":1765.73,"body":"right? Because you're imagining what could have"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1765.73,"endTime":1771.6799999999998,"body":"happened. But we when we're imagining the future,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1765.73,"endTime":1771.6799999999998,"body":"it's it's all counterfactual, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1771.79,"endTime":1773.74,"body":"Right. Yeah. We don't we don't know the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1771.79,"endTime":1773.74,"body":"outcome yet."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1774.04,"endTime":1778.6599999999999,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. Something like a board"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1774.04,"endTime":1778.6599999999999,"body":"game allows students to literally play with all of"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1778.6599999999999,"endTime":1783.85,"body":"the pieces and how they might might come together"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1778.6599999999999,"endTime":1783.85,"body":"and build their own, their own narratives."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1784.27,"endTime":1788.5,"body":"Something then that made me think"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1784.27,"endTime":1788.5,"body":"there's a, there's a few there's one board game I'm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1788.5,"endTime":1792.97,"body":"thinking of in particular, but there are a few that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1788.5,"endTime":1792.97,"body":"have this feature where you have a hidden traitor,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1794.1699999999998,"endTime":1799.21,"body":"where you're all working together except one or two"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1794.1699999999998,"endTime":1799.21,"body":"people maybe have secret objectives that are not run"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1799.21,"endTime":1805.6599999999999,"body":"counter to the to the group. And I just I don't know"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1799.21,"endTime":1805.6599999999999,"body":"if this would work as as kind of a regular way to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1805.6599999999999,"endTime":1810.6699999999998,"body":"play Daybreak, but as a kind of teaching experience,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1805.6599999999999,"endTime":1810.6699999999998,"body":"it would be interesting if you had tapped a couple"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1810.6699999999998,"endTime":1811.3,"body":"of students."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1811.78,"endTime":1812.32,"body":"To sabotage."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1812.9499999999998,"endTime":1818.3799999999999,"body":"The sabotage, right? You know, mainly"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1812.9499999999998,"endTime":1818.3799999999999,"body":"just to kind of see, because I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1819.1599999999999,"endTime":1825.61,"body":"perhaps one of the drawbacks of Daybreak as a game"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1819.1599999999999,"endTime":1825.61,"body":"system is that it assumes everyone is working"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1825.61,"endTime":1831.55,"body":"towards reducing the impacts of climate change."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1825.61,"endTime":1831.55,"body":"Right. Like like there's a kind of value assumption"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1831.55,"endTime":1837.52,"body":"at the beginning of the game that is perhaps not"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1831.55,"endTime":1837.52,"body":"entirely realistic of the real world. And so I can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1837.52,"endTime":1843.52,"body":"imagine a different set of conversations that would"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1837.52,"endTime":1843.52,"body":"emerge if you had some saboteurs, especially the way"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1843.52,"endTime":1848.6799999999998,"body":"that you structured it, right, where you've got a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1843.52,"endTime":1848.6799999999998,"body":"group of students who are playing, as you know,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1848.6799999999998,"endTime":1855.6899999999998,"body":"China or the U.S. And so if one of those students so"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1848.6799999999998,"endTime":1855.6899999999998,"body":"they wouldn't necessarily be able to kind of take"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1855.71,"endTime":1860.71,"body":"tank the game. Right. But the conversation that they"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1855.71,"endTime":1860.71,"body":"have within their team would be really interesting"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1861.55,"endTime":1864.28,"body":"to explore kind of what anyway, So."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1864.61,"endTime":1869.23,"body":"Yeah, that's that's a really"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1864.61,"endTime":1869.23,"body":"brilliant idea. It would I think it would be"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1869.23,"endTime":1876.76,"body":"impossible to win that game. with somebody trying to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1869.23,"endTime":1876.76,"body":"sabotage it because it, it is it is really built on"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1876.76,"endTime":1882.6999999999998,"body":"this collaboration. So I think I think the game is"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1876.76,"endTime":1882.6999999999998,"body":"is very hopeful in that way. You know, we don't have"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1883.54,"endTime":1888.6399999999999,"body":"a player that is like, I don't know, petroleum"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1883.54,"endTime":1888.6399999999999,"body":"companies"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1889.24,"endTime":1890.06,"body":"right Right."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1890.11,"endTime":1896.02,"body":"Oil companies that are kind of part"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1890.11,"endTime":1896.02,"body":"of the decision making process. But yeah, I love I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1896.02,"endTime":1897.07,"body":"really love that idea."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1897.6699999999998,"endTime":1901.9299999999998,"body":"Well, and I think because I talked to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1897.6699999999998,"endTime":1901.9299999999998,"body":"Mateo about agency as well. Right. And I don't think"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1901.9299999999998,"endTime":1908.5,"body":"he would ever want to put a player in the position"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1901.9299999999998,"endTime":1908.5,"body":"of kind of a bad guy in this game. Right. That's not"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1908.5,"endTime":1913.48,"body":"the kind of agency that he's trying to kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1908.5,"endTime":1913.48,"body":"foster. You want students he wants players to think"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1913.48,"endTime":1922.06,"body":"about in particular, like how they might vote, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1913.48,"endTime":1922.06,"body":"Because they are not world powers. But, you know, at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1922.06,"endTime":1928.1499999999999,"body":"least in many countries, we have a democratic system"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1922.06,"endTime":1928.1499999999999,"body":"that allows people to influence what the leaders do."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1928.53,"endTime":1936.61,"body":"So let me ask another kind of counterfactual about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1928.53,"endTime":1936.61,"body":"the game. Can you imagine using this as a first week"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1936.61,"endTime":1940.27,"body":"experience with students and what would that look"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1936.61,"endTime":1940.27,"body":"like?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1941.1899999999998,"endTime":1947.28,"body":"Hmm, I love that idea. I think if I"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1941.1899999999998,"endTime":1947.28,"body":"were to do that, I would I would want to play it in"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1947.28,"endTime":1953.1599999999999,"body":"the first week. And then also at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1947.28,"endTime":1953.1599999999999,"body":"semester. Yeah, I think that would be great. I think"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1955.06,"endTime":1963.6399999999999,"body":"yeah, it could be. It could be a really good way to"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1955.06,"endTime":1963.6399999999999,"body":"just kind of introduce the holistic system first and"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1963.6399999999999,"endTime":1973.1399999999999,"body":"also kind of call upon what students already know"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1963.6399999999999,"endTime":1973.1399999999999,"body":"about how climate change is impacting."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1973.47,"endTime":1977.37,"body":"Right? It'd be one way to kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1973.47,"endTime":1977.37,"body":"surface that, and especially if you're kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1977.37,"endTime":1981.81,"body":"eavesdropping among the students as they're trying"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1977.37,"endTime":1981.81,"body":"to make decisions, you you probably learn a lot"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1981.81,"endTime":1983.82,"body":"about kind of what your students are bringing to the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1981.81,"endTime":1983.82,"body":"course."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1984.12,"endTime":1986.82,"body":"Definitely. Yeah. I love I love"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1984.12,"endTime":1986.82,"body":"that idea."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1987.82,"endTime":1992.11,"body":"Kerry what advice would you give to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1987.82,"endTime":1992.11,"body":"other instructors who are thinking about either"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1992.11,"endTime":1996.61,"body":"using this game or other games in their courses for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1992.11,"endTime":1996.61,"body":"these types of purposes?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1997.12,"endTime":2002.4299999999998,"body":"Advice I would give is definitely"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":1997.12,"endTime":2002.4299999999998,"body":"build in time to reflect and debrief on the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2002.4299999999998,"endTime":2010.02,"body":"experience. I think that's that's kind of a a"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2002.4299999999998,"endTime":2010.02,"body":"critical element of experiential education, right?"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2010.02,"endTime":2016.8899999999999,"body":"Is is leaving time to reflect, also leaving, leaving"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2010.02,"endTime":2016.8899999999999,"body":"enough time to like really, really play play the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2016.8899999999999,"endTime":2018.3899999999999,"body":"game and it takes a while."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2019.11,"endTime":2019.9499999999998,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2019.98,"endTime":2025.11,"body":"To have a full a full experience"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2019.98,"endTime":2025.11,"body":"where you can kind of see all of the elements coming"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2025.11,"endTime":2032.1599999999999,"body":"together. So like really carving out and dedicating"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2025.11,"endTime":2032.1599999999999,"body":"the time to do it, to do it well. But also other"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2032.1599999999999,"endTime":2040.9199999999998,"body":"advice is like just also go for it. I think the"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2032.1599999999999,"endTime":2040.9199999999998,"body":"these elements of play and you know, allowing"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2040.9199999999998,"endTime":2050.19,"body":"students and giving students the space to experiment"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2040.9199999999998,"endTime":2050.19,"body":"and this this game is especially really good at"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2050.19,"endTime":2057.36,"body":"doing that. So and in the collaborative piece too is,"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2050.19,"endTime":2057.36,"body":"is a great learning learning experience for students"},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2057.36,"endTime":2058.08,"body":"to work together."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2058.53,"endTime":2064.11,"body":"Yeah, I often see that when I look at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2058.53,"endTime":2064.11,"body":"games and simulations in educational settings that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2064.11,"endTime":2067.14,"body":"the collaborative collaborative games tend to work a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2064.11,"endTime":2067.14,"body":"little bit better."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2067.53,"endTime":2068.01,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2068.79,"endTime":2072.36,"body":"In many cases. Well, Kerry, this has"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2068.79,"endTime":2072.36,"body":"been really great. Thank you so much for sharing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2072.36,"endTime":2076.98,"body":"your experiences with this game and teaching this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2072.36,"endTime":2076.98,"body":"really fascinating course. I appreciate you coming"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2076.98,"endTime":2077.58,"body":"on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2078.03,"endTime":2080.73,"body":"Thanks for the conversation, Derek."},{"speaker":"Kerry Whittaker","startTime":2078.03,"endTime":2080.73,"body":"This has been fun."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2083.88,"endTime":2087.5699999999997,"body":"That was Kerry Whittaker, assistant"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2083.88,"endTime":2087.5699999999997,"body":"professor of Coastal and Marine Environmental"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2087.5699999999997,"endTime":2092.94,"body":"Science at Maine Maritime Academy. As I mentioned in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2087.5699999999997,"endTime":2092.94,"body":"that interview, I actually interviewed Daybreak's"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2092.94,"endTime":2098.7599999999998,"body":"Co-Designer Matteo Menapace before talking with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2092.94,"endTime":2098.7599999999998,"body":"Kerry. It was Matteo who connected me with Kerry"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2098.7599999999998,"endTime":2103.5,"body":"when I asked him about faculty who were teaching"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2098.7599999999998,"endTime":2103.5,"body":"with the game. Now I'll share that earlier interview"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2103.5,"endTime":2109.74,"body":"with Matteo Menapace who describes himself as, quote,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2103.5,"endTime":2109.74,"body":"a very serious game designer. Please note that what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2109.74,"endTime":2114.27,"body":"follows is an edited version of my interview with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2109.74,"endTime":2114.27,"body":"Mateo, the full 50 minute interview can be found on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2114.27,"endTime":2118.89,"body":"the intentional teaching Patreon for paid"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2114.27,"endTime":2118.89,"body":"subscribers. So if the intersection of game design"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2118.89,"endTime":2121.11,"body":"and learning design interests you, please check it"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2118.89,"endTime":2121.11,"body":"out."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2123.9,"endTime":2127.92,"body":"Matteo, thanks so much for being on the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2123.9,"endTime":2127.92,"body":"International Teaching podcast. I'm excited to talk"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2127.92,"endTime":2134.04,"body":"with you today about design of games and design of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2127.92,"endTime":2134.04,"body":"learning. I think we're going to have a fun"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2134.04,"endTime":2135.93,"body":"conversation here today. So thanks for being here."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2136.62,"endTime":2139.5,"body":"Yeah, thank you for inviting me."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2136.62,"endTime":2139.5,"body":"Very excited to be here."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2140.66,"endTime":2145.52,"body":"So I'm going to start with a spin on my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2140.66,"endTime":2145.52,"body":"usual introductory question. Can you tell us about a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2145.52,"endTime":2149.62,"body":"time you realized you wanted to design games?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2150.99,"endTime":2159.6,"body":"Sure. So as I imagine many people"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2150.99,"endTime":2159.6,"body":"in the audience, I've been I've been playing games a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2159.6,"endTime":2166.7999999999997,"body":"lot when I was a child growing up, both board games"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2159.6,"endTime":2166.7999999999997,"body":"and video games, but I haven't considered it at that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2166.7999999999997,"endTime":2175.17,"body":"time that I would end up making games. So I, I"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2166.7999999999997,"endTime":2175.17,"body":"studied communication design and I worked in the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2175.17,"endTime":2182.73,"body":"industry for for a few years, and then I moved into"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2175.17,"endTime":2182.73,"body":"academia where I was teaching creative computing,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2182.73,"endTime":2190.02,"body":"among other things, to undergraduate students in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2182.73,"endTime":2190.02,"body":"London. And I came across the concept of unplugged"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2190.02,"endTime":2197.49,"body":"computing, which is about learning to program"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2190.02,"endTime":2197.49,"body":"computers without using computers. So in other words,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2197.49,"endTime":2205.3199999999997,"body":"to focus on how to think computationally in your own"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2197.49,"endTime":2205.3199999999997,"body":"language before you try to speak the language that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2205.3199999999997,"endTime":2212.7599999999998,"body":"computers use. So that made a lot of sense to me"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2205.3199999999997,"endTime":2212.7599999999998,"body":"because I could see a lot of my students often"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2212.7599999999998,"endTime":2220.17,"body":"getting bogged down with programming languages, but"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2212.7599999999998,"endTime":2220.17,"body":"not really understanding how to structure their"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2220.17,"endTime":2226.95,"body":"programs. And so as I was doing this research into"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2220.17,"endTime":2226.95,"body":"unplugged computing and how to possibly use it in my"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2226.95,"endTime":2235.41,"body":"practice, I came across a comparative study in which"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2226.95,"endTime":2235.41,"body":"half of the students participants played a lot of"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2235.41,"endTime":2242.31,"body":"cooperative board games before they were tested on"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2235.41,"endTime":2242.31,"body":"their programming skills, while the other half"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2242.31,"endTime":2250.2,"body":"didn't play board games. And as you can guess, the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2242.31,"endTime":2250.2,"body":"board game players consistently scored better than"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2250.2,"endTime":2259.52,"body":"those who didn't play, and the study was actually"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2250.2,"endTime":2259.52,"body":"using a board game that at the time I didn't know,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2259.5099999999998,"endTime":2268.8199999999997,"body":"but that I ended up playing a lot and really"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2259.5099999999998,"endTime":2268.8199999999997,"body":"enjoying called Pandemic. So the the idea was that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2268.8199999999997,"endTime":2276.85,"body":"by playing cooperative board games in particular,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2268.8199999999997,"endTime":2276.85,"body":"these students were practicing all the various"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2276.85,"endTime":2284.59,"body":"skills, computational thinking skills, algorithmic"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2276.85,"endTime":2284.59,"body":"thinking and making so understanding rules and then"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2284.59,"endTime":2291.22,"body":"playing out those rules, but also strategizing and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2284.59,"endTime":2291.22,"body":"making those strategies. And verbalizing the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2291.22,"endTime":2297.22,"body":"strategies with the other players or talking to each"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2291.22,"endTime":2297.22,"body":"other about what they were trying to do in order to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2297.22,"endTime":2303.7999999999997,"body":"overcome the algorithmic problems that the game was"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2297.22,"endTime":2303.7999999999997,"body":"throwing at them. I think there are there are two"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2303.7999999999997,"endTime":2308.5699999999997,"body":"steps there. The first one is something that you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2303.7999999999997,"endTime":2308.5699999999997,"body":"could say about pretty much any board game, which is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2308.96,"endTime":2314.99,"body":"that in order to play a board game, you have to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2308.96,"endTime":2314.99,"body":"internalize the rules, which are essentially a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2314.99,"endTime":2321.2599999999998,"body":"program. I like to think of designing board games as,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2314.99,"endTime":2321.2599999999998,"body":"you know, coding, but for people, which is actually"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2321.2599999999998,"endTime":2329.6,"body":"much more fun than coding for computers, the people"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2321.2599999999998,"endTime":2329.6,"body":"are much more fun to work with. But then the second"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2329.6,"endTime":2336.77,"body":"steps, as you say, is in cooperative board games."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2329.6,"endTime":2336.77,"body":"You tend to talk to the other players because you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2336.77,"endTime":2341.87,"body":"don't have to hide your strategy, you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2336.77,"endTime":2341.87,"body":"compete with them, but instead you're working"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2341.87,"endTime":2348.14,"body":"together and so on top of doing all that mental"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2341.87,"endTime":2348.14,"body":"processing, you're also verbalizing your thoughts,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2348.14,"endTime":2354.08,"body":"which essentially means you're you're like creating"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2348.14,"endTime":2354.08,"body":"code or you're"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2355.19,"endTime":2363.29,"body":"theorizing how you might resolve that problem in, in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2355.19,"endTime":2363.29,"body":"real time. And that seems to be what helped those"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2363.29,"endTime":2371.58,"body":"students that were part of that study. I realized"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2363.29,"endTime":2371.58,"body":"that this was pretty powerful and so that reignited"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2371.58,"endTime":2378.36,"body":"my interest in in playing board games. So actually"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2371.58,"endTime":2378.36,"body":"bought Pandemic and started playing with people to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2378.36,"endTime":2387.48,"body":"to study what would happen to see for myself. And"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2378.36,"endTime":2387.48,"body":"then also I decided that I wanted to learn how to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2388.56,"endTime":2395.5099999999998,"body":"how to design my own games. And initially I wanted"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2388.56,"endTime":2395.5099999999998,"body":"to design games to help people learn to code because"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2395.5099999999998,"endTime":2404.15,"body":"that was my immediate professional goal. And then"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2395.5099999999998,"endTime":2404.15,"body":"that quickly got sidetracked and, and I started"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2404.15,"endTime":2405.14,"body":"designing games"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2406.43,"endTime":2409.2799999999997,"body":"to to understand complex systems."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2409.46,"endTime":2416.74,"body":"So your new game is called Day Break"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2409.46,"endTime":2416.74,"body":"and it is a cooperative game. So what what is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2416.74,"endTime":2418.96,"body":"Daybreak and how did this game come to be?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2420.2,"endTime":2426.56,"body":"Day break is a cooperative board"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2420.2,"endTime":2426.56,"body":"game about stopping climate change. So you work as a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2426.56,"endTime":2433.04,"body":"group of players representing world powers and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2426.56,"endTime":2433.04,"body":"you're doing"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2435.63,"endTime":2441.27,"body":"so you work as a group of players representing world"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2435.63,"endTime":2441.27,"body":"powers and you have essentially two goals. One is,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2441.48,"endTime":2447.5699999999997,"body":"you know, to win, you have to reduce global"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2441.48,"endTime":2447.5699999999997,"body":"emissions down to net zero and beyond, which is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2447.5699999999997,"endTime":2453.7799999999997,"body":"called the global drawdown. And that's how you win."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2447.5699999999997,"endTime":2453.7799999999997,"body":"So when you reduce emissions down to that level"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2453.7799999999997,"endTime":2461.0699999999997,"body":"where we are as humanity producing less emissions,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2453.7799999999997,"endTime":2461.0699999999997,"body":"that what the planet can absorb. At the same time,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2461.31,"endTime":2469.38,"body":"you also have to protect people, ecosystems and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2461.31,"endTime":2469.38,"body":"infrastructure from a series of crises and knock on"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2469.38,"endTime":2475.77,"body":"effects that keep on happening as a result of the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2469.38,"endTime":2475.77,"body":"emissions that we have already put out in the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2475.77,"endTime":2481.38,"body":"atmosphere and and the ones that you keep on"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2475.77,"endTime":2481.38,"body":"emitting up to the point where you're not emitting"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2481.38,"endTime":2491.56,"body":"any more. Daybreak came about because in March 2020,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2481.38,"endTime":2491.56,"body":"Pandemic started to become more than a game in my"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2491.56,"endTime":2502.5499999999997,"body":"world. So what was my and still is my favorite game,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2491.56,"endTime":2502.5499999999997,"body":"Pandemic, also turned into a a reality, the reality"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2502.5499999999997,"endTime":2510.44,"body":"of COVID 2020. So I wrote a blog post about what we"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2502.5499999999997,"endTime":2510.44,"body":"could learn from the game, applied to what was then"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2510.44,"endTime":2517.97,"body":"a new and scary reality. And then I reached out to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2510.44,"endTime":2517.97,"body":"Matt Leacock, who's the author of Pandemic. We"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2517.97,"endTime":2522.92,"body":"didn't know each other at the time, but we quickly"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2517.97,"endTime":2522.92,"body":"discovered that we're both interested in the climate"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2522.92,"endTime":2531.62,"body":"crisis, and we also found the prospect of a game"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2522.92,"endTime":2531.62,"body":"about the climate crisis both fascinating and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2532.19,"endTime":2541.19,"body":"overwhelmingly complex, we both had tried to sketch"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2532.19,"endTime":2541.19,"body":"out some climate crisis game and found it too much."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2541.7,"endTime":2552.9,"body":"So we decided to join forces. And that was April"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2541.7,"endTime":2552.9,"body":"2020. And we we've been working remotely for the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2552.9,"endTime":2557.34,"body":"last three years. Yeah. At designing this game."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2558.2599999999998,"endTime":2563.68,"body":"I don't want to go too much into"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2558.2599999999998,"endTime":2563.68,"body":"pandemic the game but and I don't know how realistic"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2564.39,"endTime":2569.19,"body":"pandemic the game is like. I don't know what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2564.39,"endTime":2569.19,"body":"research Matt Leacock did to try to kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2570.2,"endTime":2573.08,"body":"replicate systems in the game."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2575.12,"endTime":2579.0499999999997,"body":"But I do know Daybreak is very realistic and you've"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2575.12,"endTime":2579.0499999999997,"body":"described it as"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2580.49,"endTime":2589.13,"body":"realistic but not educational. So in what ways is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2580.49,"endTime":2589.13,"body":"Daybreak the game? In what ways is it educational"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2589.13,"endTime":2592.25,"body":"and in what ways? And what do you mean by saying"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2589.13,"endTime":2592.25,"body":"that it's not educational?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2594.06,"endTime":2594.45,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2596.11,"endTime":2605.1,"body":"the beef we have with educational games is that they"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2596.11,"endTime":2605.1,"body":"have a tendency of being preachy and telling players"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2605.46,"endTime":2611.7,"body":"what is the right thing to do. And that often means"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2605.46,"endTime":2611.7,"body":"the decision space for players is very limited, very"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2611.7,"endTime":2620.3199999999997,"body":"narrow, and you're guided down that almost forced"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2611.7,"endTime":2620.3199999999997,"body":"down the right path. And so educational games with"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2620.3199999999997,"endTime":2631.77,"body":"the best intentions often tend to put players off"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2620.3199999999997,"endTime":2631.77,"body":"because they strip away some of their agency. So by"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2631.77,"endTime":2637.66,"body":"trying to tell them what is the right thing to do"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2631.77,"endTime":2637.66,"body":"and by kind of testing them against that, they're"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2638.65,"endTime":2646.42,"body":"leaving very little space for players to to try out"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2638.65,"endTime":2646.42,"body":"and to have their own learning experience. So this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2646.42,"endTime":2654.25,"body":"is something that we wanted to avoid when we decided"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2646.42,"endTime":2654.25,"body":"to design Daybreak. And instead of designing this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2654.25,"endTime":2664.13,"body":"kind of, narrow, preachy game, we wanted the game to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2654.25,"endTime":2664.13,"body":"give players meaningful choices to make. So players"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2664.13,"endTime":2672.56,"body":"being able to tinker with the system, to experiment"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2664.13,"endTime":2672.56,"body":"with solution, and to learn by playing. What are the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2672.56,"endTime":2682.38,"body":"dynamics of the of the system involved. So in a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2672.56,"endTime":2682.38,"body":"sense, you could say that any game is every game is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2682.38,"endTime":2689.0099999999998,"body":"educational because it teaches you something. It"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2682.38,"endTime":2689.0099999999998,"body":"teaches you what success and failure means, and also"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2689.0099999999998,"endTime":2697.14,"body":"it tests you against those criteria. And then some"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2689.0099999999998,"endTime":2697.14,"body":"games that are explicitly educational in that they"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2697.14,"endTime":2706.71,"body":"want you to learn something beyond how to play, how"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2697.14,"endTime":2706.71,"body":"to win, how to not lose. And so if every game is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2706.71,"endTime":2714.93,"body":"educational, then the question is how do how does"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2706.71,"endTime":2714.93,"body":"the learning happen and and how is the learning"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2714.93,"endTime":2723.18,"body":"balanced by enjoyment and agency so that's that's"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2714.93,"endTime":2723.18,"body":"one of the questions that we had in our mind when"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2723.18,"endTime":2729.27,"body":"when design daybreak. We wanted the game to be based"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2723.18,"endTime":2729.27,"body":"on real world data and realistic solutions to the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2729.27,"endTime":2737.19,"body":"climate crisis, as we understood and from research"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2729.27,"endTime":2737.19,"body":"them. At the same time, we wanted the game to not"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2737.19,"endTime":2744.27,"body":"just present what we personally think are viable"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2737.19,"endTime":2744.27,"body":"solutions to the climate crisis, but any solution"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2744.27,"endTime":2752.8199999999997,"body":"that is that is plausible, whether we agree with it"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2744.27,"endTime":2752.8199999999997,"body":"or not. And so that players could have their own"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2753.16,"endTime":2760.5499999999997,"body":"learning experience by trying by trying them out, by"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2753.16,"endTime":2760.5499999999997,"body":"seeing what happens when you when you play different"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2760.5499999999997,"endTime":2769.33,"body":"combinations of solutions. We give you a deck of"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2760.5499999999997,"endTime":2769.33,"body":"about 150 cards. And those hundred 50 cards can be"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2769.33,"endTime":2776.77,"body":"played in many different combinations, and they span"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2769.33,"endTime":2776.77,"body":"from what people would identify more easily as"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2776.77,"endTime":2783.37,"body":"climate policies. So things that are to do with"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2776.77,"endTime":2783.37,"body":"emissions and with energy transitions, for instance."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2783.37,"endTime":2792.49,"body":"So building out clean forms of energy,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2783.37,"endTime":2792.49,"body":"decommissioning dirty forms of energy, but also"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2793.6,"endTime":2802.7799999999997,"body":"policies and technologies that are not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2793.6,"endTime":2802.7799999999997,"body":"identified by most people as climate policies, but"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2802.7799999999997,"endTime":2808.45,"body":"they can still play an important role in, for"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2802.7799999999997,"endTime":2808.45,"body":"instance, protecting communities, protecting"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2809.2799999999997,"endTime":2817.02,"body":"ecosystems from the consequences of the climate"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2809.2799999999997,"endTime":2817.02,"body":"crisis. So it's a really broad spectrum of of"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2817.02,"endTime":2823.7999999999997,"body":"policies and technologies. And one of the things"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2817.02,"endTime":2823.7999999999997,"body":"that people learn by playing this game is that it's"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2825.17,"endTime":2834.71,"body":"there's so many angles to to approach this. So it is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2825.17,"endTime":2834.71,"body":"not really narrow narrowly focused on on emissions"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2834.71,"endTime":2842.0299999999997,"body":"and energy, but it's also there's a lot of social"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2834.71,"endTime":2842.0299999999997,"body":"policies and ecological policies and things that are"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2842.0299999999997,"endTime":2850.71,"body":"generally beneficial for most humans, but wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2842.0299999999997,"endTime":2850.71,"body":"be identified as as climate policy. At a first"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2850.86,"endTime":2851.34,"body":"glance."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2852.15,"endTime":2856.62,"body":"There's a health care simulation, one"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2852.15,"endTime":2856.62,"body":"that I've I've played a couple of times called"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2856.62,"endTime":2864.44,"body":"Replay Health, and I talked to a sociology professor"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2856.62,"endTime":2864.44,"body":"who used this in her class, and she said one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2864.44,"endTime":2872.0699999999997,"body":"things that this simulation helps students"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2864.44,"endTime":2872.0699999999997,"body":"understand is that health care policy in the U.S."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2873.71,"endTime":2879.38,"body":"like to really understand it. And to make change"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2873.71,"endTime":2879.38,"body":"there, you have to have a form of systems thinking"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2880.21,"endTime":2886.27,"body":"that there are lots of interconnected pieces. And so"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2880.21,"endTime":2886.27,"body":"it's not just about my individual choices or my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2886.27,"endTime":2892.69,"body":"individual actions, but there are, as you say, kind"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2886.27,"endTime":2892.69,"body":"of knock on effects from collective actions and from"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2892.69,"endTime":2898.69,"body":"the ways that the pieces of the system integrate. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2892.69,"endTime":2898.69,"body":"want to say that board games can be really good at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2898.69,"endTime":2906.2999999999997,"body":"teaching systems thinking and this sounds. You know,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2898.69,"endTime":2906.2999999999997,"body":"climate change is certainly a problem that requires"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2906.2999999999997,"endTime":2912.97,"body":"systems thinking. So is that one of your goals as"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2906.2999999999997,"endTime":2912.97,"body":"well is to kind of help help players understand some"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2912.97,"endTime":2914.2,"body":"of those systems a little bit better?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2915.0099999999998,"endTime":2920.91,"body":"Yeah, Yeah, 100%. So this is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2915.0099999999998,"endTime":2920.91,"body":"something that Matt and I agreed on pretty much from"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2920.92,"endTime":2930.0099999999998,"body":"the get go from the first meeting Is this shared"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2920.92,"endTime":2930.0099999999998,"body":"frustration on how climate action is often framed as"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2930.0099999999998,"endTime":2937.66,"body":"a matter of individual choices. So you as a consumer"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2930.0099999999998,"endTime":2937.66,"body":"can do your bit for the climate by reducing your"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2937.66,"endTime":2946.38,"body":"individual carbon footprint, by say things, changing"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2937.66,"endTime":2946.38,"body":"your your habits around food or on transportation or,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2946.38,"endTime":2954.42,"body":"you know, some people go as far as saying, you know,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2946.38,"endTime":2954.42,"body":"if you have one or less or no kids, that would be"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2954.42,"endTime":2958.79,"body":"the biggest impact that you can do because kids are"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2954.42,"endTime":2958.79,"body":"the culprit. Obviously."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2960.71,"endTime":2967.13,"body":"And so we were frustrated with that kind of thinking,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2960.71,"endTime":2967.13,"body":"which which goes back to your"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2968.86,"endTime":2977.3199999999997,"body":"individualized way of thinking about health care"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2968.86,"endTime":2977.3199999999997,"body":"systems or other systems that we wanted a game that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2977.3199999999997,"endTime":2984.34,"body":"helps people understand the scale and the complexity"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2977.3199999999997,"endTime":2984.34,"body":"of the problem as a systemic problem. So cognitive"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2984.34,"endTime":2990.1,"body":"games are particularly good at modeling any any"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2984.34,"endTime":2990.1,"body":"issue as a as a systemic issue, because you're not"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2990.1,"endTime":2997.09,"body":"focusing on what is that player doing, but rather"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2990.1,"endTime":2997.09,"body":"what is the systems behavior that leads to certain"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2997.09,"endTime":3002.38,"body":"results that we want to to change. So it made a lot"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":2997.09,"endTime":3002.38,"body":"of sense to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3004.22,"endTime":3011.09,"body":"model a game on the climate crisis as as a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3004.22,"endTime":3011.09,"body":"cooperative game and as a game that has this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3011.09,"endTime":3018.67,"body":"systemic frame and that makes look at systemic"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3011.09,"endTime":3018.67,"body":"action and systemic solutions to the problem. Hmm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3019.42,"endTime":3028.88,"body":"Because I'm this is interesting. So in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3019.42,"endTime":3028.88,"body":"a competitive game, I might naturally have a more"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3028.88,"endTime":3038.68,"body":"narrow focus as I play the game on my own choices"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3028.88,"endTime":3038.68,"body":"and maybe the choices of one or two key competitors,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3038.68,"endTime":3044.38,"body":"right? So I have to kind of understand the system at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3038.68,"endTime":3044.38,"body":"some level, but I don't have to take responsibility"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3044.38,"endTime":3049.2599999999998,"body":"for understanding the whole system. If I can find"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3044.38,"endTime":3049.2599999999998,"body":"kind of a narrow route through it, that that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3049.27,"endTime":3056.4,"body":"benefits me. Whereas in a cooperative game, in order"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3049.27,"endTime":3056.4,"body":"for us to all win, we actually have to kind of pay"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3056.4,"endTime":3060.89,"body":"attention to all the things and how they work"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3056.4,"endTime":3060.89,"body":"together. Is that is that does that sound accurate?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3061.61,"endTime":3069.02,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3061.61,"endTime":3069.02,"body":"And also is the kind of focus that implicitly that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3069.02,"endTime":3077.71,"body":"the game creates. So as you say, when you play a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3069.02,"endTime":3077.71,"body":"competitive game, you're focused on your own action"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3077.71,"endTime":3083.95,"body":"and you know your own actions as well as the other"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3077.71,"endTime":3083.95,"body":"players actions, and you tend to understand those as"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3083.95,"endTime":3092.0499999999997,"body":"individual choices. So if you're winning, you might"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3083.95,"endTime":3092.0499999999997,"body":"say, Well, I played well because I'm a good person"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3092.0499999999997,"endTime":3101.08,"body":"or I'm a smart player, and if someone else is doing"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3092.0499999999997,"endTime":3101.08,"body":"something which is immoral in the in the game code,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3101.59,"endTime":3108.25,"body":"then you will blame them for their individual"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3101.59,"endTime":3108.25,"body":"choices. Whereas when you start to look at it from a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3108.25,"endTime":3117.69,"body":"systemic perspective, you might see that the the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3108.25,"endTime":3117.69,"body":"actions of of people, whether they are played by"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3117.69,"endTime":3122.94,"body":"actual players, by human players, or whether they"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3117.69,"endTime":3122.94,"body":"are kind of encoded in the in the in the game as"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3124.1,"endTime":3131.0299999999997,"body":"part of the system, they're not necessarily bad"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3124.1,"endTime":3131.0299999999997,"body":"individuals, but they're just playing by the rules."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3131.2999999999997,"endTime":3137.21,"body":"They're just doing what the system is kind of asking"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3131.2999999999997,"endTime":3137.21,"body":"them to do in order to lead to to a certain result."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3137.21,"endTime":3144.69,"body":"And so you start to understand things like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3137.21,"endTime":3144.69,"body":"know criminal behavior, for instance, not from an"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3144.9,"endTime":3154.41,"body":"from from the perspective of bad people making bad"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3144.9,"endTime":3154.41,"body":"choices, but instead people who are making choices"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3154.41,"endTime":3161.1,"body":"that have a certain logic within the system, whether"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3154.41,"endTime":3161.1,"body":"you agree with them or not, or whether you would in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3169.95,"body":"that situation, make the same choices, is kind of"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3161.1,"endTime":3169.95,"body":"irrelevant because the game helps you see them with"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3169.95,"endTime":3178.35,"body":"that systemic lens. And so you go beyond those easy"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3169.95,"endTime":3178.35,"body":"answers or the easy kind of binaries of bad versus"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3178.35,"endTime":3185.61,"body":"evil. And and you start to understand more the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3178.35,"endTime":3185.61,"body":"complexities of systems as well as human behavior"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3186.54,"endTime":3187.38,"body":"within systems."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3188.39,"endTime":3193.52,"body":"Daybreak is about fighting climate"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3188.39,"endTime":3193.52,"body":"change. I have a colleague at my former institution,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3194.0099999999998,"endTime":3199.89,"body":"Joe Bandy, who teaches a lot about climate change."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3194.0099999999998,"endTime":3199.89,"body":"He's a sociology instructor there. And one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3199.89,"endTime":3204.75,"body":"things he's mentioned to me many times is that as"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3199.89,"endTime":3204.75,"body":"he's working with a group of students over the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3204.75,"endTime":3213.61,"body":"length of a semester, the more they understand about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3204.75,"endTime":3213.61,"body":"climate change, the more despair they have. And so"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3213.61,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"I'm wondering, how do you think about that? Because"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3213.61,"endTime":3219.67,"body":"you could come away from an experience learning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3219.67,"endTime":3225.6,"body":"about climate change and how these systems interact"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3219.67,"endTime":3225.6,"body":"and feel pretty hopeless about it, especially if"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3225.61,"endTime":3230.67,"body":"maybe you were thinking, all I need to do is reduce"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3225.61,"endTime":3230.67,"body":"my carbon footprint, right? That's what I can do to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3230.68,"endTime":3232.0299999999997,"body":"help. How"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3233.89,"endTime":3239.2,"body":"how did you think about in the design process trying"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3233.89,"endTime":3239.2,"body":"to help people not move to a point of despair, but"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3239.2,"endTime":3245.14,"body":"to move to some other point as they play the game?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3239.2,"endTime":3245.14,"body":"Perhaps one once or many times."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3246.42,"endTime":3247.89,"body":"We've been very"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3249.43,"endTime":3262.27,"body":"conscious and intentional in making day break a game"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3249.43,"endTime":3262.27,"body":"that has overall a an optimistic outlook. So it"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3262.5099999999998,"endTime":3264.1,"body":"shows you, as you play that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3266.21,"endTime":3272.69,"body":"climate change is a very complex and very difficult"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3266.21,"endTime":3272.69,"body":"problem. But at all times you can see that it's"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3272.69,"endTime":3278.72,"body":"possible whether you manage to win on your first go"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3272.69,"endTime":3278.72,"body":"or your second go on your third go, that's a"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3278.72,"endTime":3286.34,"body":"different question. But the game is winnable and it"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3278.72,"endTime":3286.34,"body":"shows you that it is winnable. And then the argument"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3286.34,"endTime":3293.21,"body":"is also that it is based on both real world data and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3286.34,"endTime":3293.21,"body":"plausible solution, which means that in the real"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3293.21,"endTime":3301.85,"body":"world this is a problem that can be solved and the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3293.21,"endTime":3301.85,"body":"focus is really on solutions. So what we want with"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3301.85,"endTime":3310.19,"body":"this game is to raise awareness of of solutions that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3301.85,"endTime":3310.19,"body":"exist to the climate crisis, because we're way past"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3310.19,"endTime":3317.0299999999997,"body":"the point of debating whether climate change is real"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3310.19,"endTime":3317.0299999999997,"body":"or not. The real question is, well, what do we do"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3317.0299999999997,"endTime":3322.93,"body":"about climate change? And the thing is that there"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3317.0299999999997,"endTime":3322.93,"body":"are a wealth of solutions which are both"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3323.7999999999997,"endTime":3332.95,"body":"technological and political, and many of them are"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3323.7999999999997,"endTime":3332.95,"body":"challenging the dominant economic system. So that is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3332.95,"endTime":3339.04,"body":"where it starts to become challenging to implement"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3332.95,"endTime":3339.04,"body":"that. That's where it also starts to become"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3339.04,"endTime":3345.88,"body":"difficult even to imagine some of those solutions in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3339.04,"endTime":3345.88,"body":"the real world because they are things that require"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3345.88,"endTime":3355.84,"body":"a certain system change. So by playing Daybreak. We"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3345.88,"endTime":3355.84,"body":"we hope that people get familiar with this portfolio"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3355.84,"endTime":3363.2,"body":"of solutions and they can understand that those"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3355.84,"endTime":3363.2,"body":"solutions can match the scale and urgency of the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3363.2,"endTime":3369.44,"body":"crises. When you ask the question, what can I do"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3363.2,"endTime":3369.44,"body":"about the climate crisis, then the answer is very"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3369.44,"endTime":3377.69,"body":"little on my own. Just just like in Daybreak. When"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3369.44,"endTime":3377.69,"body":"you play Daybreak, you can see that as a single"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3377.69,"endTime":3385.4,"body":"player. You can, of course, make quite, quite a lot"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3377.69,"endTime":3385.4,"body":"of difference because you're playing as a world"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3385.4,"endTime":3393.83,"body":"power, but still on your own that you're not as"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3385.4,"endTime":3393.83,"body":"efficient as if you were working with with the other"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3393.83,"endTime":3400.37,"body":"players. So there is this dynamic in Daybreak where"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3393.83,"endTime":3400.37,"body":"people tend to start playing and really focusing on"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3400.37,"endTime":3405.89,"body":"what they can do in their individual player board."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3400.37,"endTime":3405.89,"body":"And then after a couple of rounds they realize that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3407.2,"endTime":3413.56,"body":"we haven't done as much progress as you could have"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3407.2,"endTime":3413.56,"body":"done if we had been strategizing together. If we had"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3414.22,"endTime":3420.94,"body":"tried to make the most of what we are. What, we're"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3414.22,"endTime":3420.94,"body":"each individually good at it and so on. So I guess"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3420.94,"endTime":3422.44,"body":"the message there is that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3424.39,"endTime":3429.7,"body":"anything you can do, you're much more effective if"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3424.39,"endTime":3429.7,"body":"you do it with with other people. So we're"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3429.85,"endTime":3439.12,"body":"encouraging people to to look at collective action"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3429.85,"endTime":3439.12,"body":"and to then join join forces with with other people."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3439.12,"endTime":3448.17,"body":"So we have a website that every single card has its"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3439.12,"endTime":3448.17,"body":"own page on the website, so you can scan a QR code"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3448.17,"endTime":3455.0699999999997,"body":"on the card and then see what you can see what that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3448.17,"endTime":3455.0699999999997,"body":"card represents in terms of solutions in the real"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3455.0699999999997,"endTime":3461.8199999999997,"body":"world. And then we also have a few prompts for"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3455.0699999999997,"endTime":3461.8199999999997,"body":"people to to learn more and to take action. And most"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3461.8199999999997,"endTime":3471.99,"body":"of the time that take action is about joining groups"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3461.8199999999997,"endTime":3471.99,"body":"or movements that are already working in that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3472.58,"endTime":3481.36,"body":"towards that solution and seeing that outside of the,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3472.58,"endTime":3481.36,"body":"you know, sort of your own individual sphere,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3481.66,"endTime":3486.0099999999998,"body":"there's there's a lot that you can do when you join"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3481.66,"endTime":3486.0099999999998,"body":"other people's efforts."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3487.74,"endTime":3492.36,"body":"Let me circle back to something that we"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3487.74,"endTime":3492.36,"body":"talked a little bit about earlier in terms of not"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3492.36,"endTime":3497.19,"body":"being, you know, overtly educational and how how"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3492.36,"endTime":3497.19,"body":"players have lots of different paths that they can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3497.19,"endTime":3504.87,"body":"explore and see kind of what works and what might"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3497.19,"endTime":3504.87,"body":"not work. A couple of years ago on my former podcast,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3504.87,"endTime":3509.91,"body":"I interviewed Patrick Rael, who teaches history at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3504.87,"endTime":3509.91,"body":"Bowdoin College in Maine, and he has a course that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3509.91,"endTime":3516.21,"body":"uses board games to teach history. And he said"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3509.91,"endTime":3516.21,"body":"something that really kind of turned a light bulb on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3516.36,"endTime":3523.18,"body":"me that games are inherently counterfactual. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3516.36,"endTime":3523.18,"body":"this is something that historians I've heard"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3523.18,"endTime":3529.15,"body":"historians use this term before, right? Like what?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3523.18,"endTime":3529.15,"body":"What could have happened but did not. And so because"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3529.15,"endTime":3533.47,"body":"often in the teaching of history, you think about,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3529.15,"endTime":3533.47,"body":"you know, we just have to memorize the sequence of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3533.47,"endTime":3538.42,"body":"events and what actually happened. But historians"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3533.47,"endTime":3538.42,"body":"practicing historians do a lot of counterfactual"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3539.0499999999997,"endTime":3543.8199999999997,"body":"thinking, what could have happened but did not. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3539.0499999999997,"endTime":3543.8199999999997,"body":"how does that help us understand the systems and the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3543.8199999999997,"endTime":3551.68,"body":"the kind of the chain of consequences that unfolded"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3543.8199999999997,"endTime":3551.68,"body":"that did happen? And, you know, when I solve when I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3551.68,"endTime":3559.36,"body":"when I work a puzzle with a jigsaw puzzle, right."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3551.68,"endTime":3559.36,"body":"There is one intended outcome, right And so that is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3559.36,"endTime":3566.71,"body":"not true for a game. There are multiple outcomes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3559.36,"endTime":3566.71,"body":"And, you know, game players will often think about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3567.52,"endTime":3573.88,"body":"the idea of having multiple paths to victory. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3567.52,"endTime":3573.88,"body":"you know, in a competitive game, you're often trying"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3573.88,"endTime":3577.85,"body":"to find your path and it may be a different path"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3573.88,"endTime":3577.85,"body":"than someone else. But as you say in this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3577.85,"endTime":3583.44,"body":"cooperative game, you're kind of exploring the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3577.85,"endTime":3583.44,"body":"decision space together. I'm I'm wondering if that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3583.44,"endTime":3588.6,"body":"phrase, if that word word counterfactual resonates"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3583.44,"endTime":3588.6,"body":"with you as a way to think about what Daybreak does"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3588.6,"endTime":3592.23,"body":"and more generally what games can do to to help"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3588.6,"endTime":3592.23,"body":"people understand things."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3593.27,"endTime":3598.7,"body":"Yeah, Yeah, completely. And we have"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3593.27,"endTime":3598.7,"body":"used counterfactual a few times in our design"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3598.8199999999997,"endTime":3607.1,"body":"conversations around daybreak. So one fancy way to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3598.8199999999997,"endTime":3607.1,"body":"describe daybreak would be a counterfactual engine."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3607.1,"endTime":3615.83,"body":"So you could say that the game sets a few variables"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3607.1,"endTime":3615.83,"body":"and system behaviors, for example, creates this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3616.13,"endTime":3620.96,"body":"simplified model of the emission cycle, and then it"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3616.13,"endTime":3620.96,"body":"gives you those starting values of emissions from"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3620.96,"endTime":3628.37,"body":"the different sectors that we mentioned before. And"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3620.96,"endTime":3628.37,"body":"then you, the players, you set the engine in motion."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3628.37,"endTime":3635.87,"body":"So by playing the cards that let you explore what"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3628.37,"endTime":3635.87,"body":"happens when you change those variables. And so by"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3635.87,"endTime":3641.2999999999997,"body":"playing, you are able to ask questions like, What if"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3635.87,"endTime":3641.2999999999997,"body":"we roll out this massive health care program? Or"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3641.2999999999997,"endTime":3647.81,"body":"what if we decide that we don't we don't want to use"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3641.2999999999997,"endTime":3647.81,"body":"nuclear energy even though the game allows you to?"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3648.2,"endTime":3654.62,"body":"Or what if we dim the sun with Geoengineering"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3648.2,"endTime":3654.62,"body":"Technologies and you can explore how those"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3654.83,"endTime":3663.72,"body":"interventions interact with each other and what kind"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3654.83,"endTime":3663.72,"body":"of risks and consequences they have on on people and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3666.04,"endTime":3668.11,"body":"and on the planet. So"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3669.95,"endTime":3671.0,"body":"so going back to the"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3672.75,"endTime":3680.0099999999998,"body":"educational question, though, there are solutions in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3672.75,"endTime":3680.0099999999998,"body":"the game that I would personally not want to see in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3680.0099999999998,"endTime":3688.1,"body":"the real world, like geoengineering. But we included"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3680.0099999999998,"endTime":3688.1,"body":"them in daybreak because, one, they're plausible"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3688.64,"endTime":3695.63,"body":"people are actually considering those for various"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3688.64,"endTime":3695.63,"body":"reasons and because we think that is useful for"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3695.63,"endTime":3702.08,"body":"players to try them out rather than us telling them"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3695.63,"endTime":3702.08,"body":"this is bad, don't do it. So for instance, when you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3702.08,"endTime":3709.37,"body":"do geoengineering in the game, you are literally"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3702.08,"endTime":3709.37,"body":"rolling a die. So you're taking a massive risk and"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3709.37,"endTime":3716.09,"body":"the results are unpredictable. So you could you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3709.37,"endTime":3716.09,"body":"might be lucky and you might be able to reach your"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3716.22,"endTime":3722.84,"body":"your temporary goal, but you also may not be lucky"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3716.22,"endTime":3722.84,"body":"and what we want people to understand is,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3724.85,"endTime":3730.27,"body":"well, first of all, what we want people to think"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3724.85,"endTime":3730.27,"body":"about it, to consider those choices, and we try to"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3730.27,"endTime":3739.66,"body":"create a similar condition to what world leaders in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3730.27,"endTime":3739.66,"body":"might might think when they consider, should we roll"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3739.66,"endTime":3740.3199999999997,"body":"out this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3741.89,"endTime":3751.0699999999997,"body":"program that we don't quite understand or can't"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3741.89,"endTime":3751.0699999999997,"body":"quite predict the consequences of, but has some"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3751.0699999999997,"endTime":3755.38,"body":"potential benefits as well as some unknown risks?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3757.3199999999997,"endTime":3760.62,"body":"And that may connect a little bit to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3757.3199999999997,"endTime":3760.62,"body":"what you said earlier about different versions of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3760.62,"endTime":3768.72,"body":"fun, because I avoided those interventions at all"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3760.62,"endTime":3768.72,"body":"costs when I play this game. And but I am not, you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3768.72,"endTime":3775.11,"body":"know, I, I, I play a lot of board games and, you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3768.72,"endTime":3775.11,"body":"know, I play with other people who have different"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3775.95,"endTime":3780.45,"body":"comfort levels with risk. And so some players are"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3775.95,"endTime":3780.45,"body":"going to want to kind of go go for the gamble. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3780.45,"endTime":3786.2999999999997,"body":"that's that's how they enjoy a game like this. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3780.45,"endTime":3786.2999999999997,"body":"then I'm not one of those players. I try to I like"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3786.2999999999997,"endTime":3790.17,"body":"the slow build right where I know what I'm getting"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3786.2999999999997,"endTime":3790.17,"body":"and I can I can build over time."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3790.86,"endTime":3797.0699999999997,"body":"Yeah. There's also a point where in"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3790.86,"endTime":3797.0699999999997,"body":"some some games where people like you might find"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3797.0699999999997,"endTime":3807.44,"body":"themselves in a situation where that's the chances"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3797.0699999999997,"endTime":3807.44,"body":"of being able to win are rather slim. And then this"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3807.44,"endTime":3813.7,"body":"opportunity to use geo engineering comes up and that"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3807.44,"endTime":3813.7,"body":"really plays out as a kind of moral dilemma where"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3813.7,"endTime":3824.21,"body":"you go, okay, if if this works, then we have we, you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3813.7,"endTime":3824.21,"body":"know, we can keep that slim chance alive and maybe"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3824.5099999999998,"endTime":3833.89,"body":"even turn things around. But if it doesn't, then"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3824.5099999999998,"endTime":3833.89,"body":"we'll be we'll be doomed. So and that and that is"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3833.89,"endTime":3846.34,"body":"also the kind of the counterfactual situation where"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3833.89,"endTime":3846.34,"body":"we might see ourselves in a few decades, where, you"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3846.34,"endTime":3855.22,"body":"know, in in the in the event of global warming"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3846.34,"endTime":3855.22,"body":"continuing at the current levels. And we may start"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3855.22,"endTime":3859.2799999999997,"body":"to see world powers, especially in the global South,"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3860.49,"endTime":3870.27,"body":"considering seriously these more drastic and risky"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3860.49,"endTime":3870.27,"body":"technologies because they feel well, we've we left"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3870.27,"endTime":3875.43,"body":"it too late for the the more progressive, more"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3870.27,"endTime":3875.43,"body":"gradual approach."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3876.25,"endTime":3881.4,"body":"It must be rewarding to you to see your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3876.25,"endTime":3881.4,"body":"game in the real world being played all over the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3881.4,"endTime":3887.64,"body":"world and I really thank you for your time today"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3881.4,"endTime":3887.64,"body":"talking with me about all these topics. It's been"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3887.64,"endTime":3889.74,"body":"fascinating. Yeah. Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3890.81,"endTime":3892.67,"body":"Thank you. Has been a great"},{"speaker":"Matteo Menapace","startTime":3890.81,"endTime":3892.67,"body":"conversation."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3896.5699999999997,"endTime":3901.94,"body":"That was Matteo Menapace co-designer of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3896.5699999999997,"endTime":3901.94,"body":"the Cooperative Board game Daybreak, and independent"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3901.94,"endTime":3907.52,"body":"game designer, Thanks to both Mateo and Kerry for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3901.94,"endTime":3907.52,"body":"taking the time to talk with me about DAYBREAK. In"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3907.52,"endTime":3911.81,"body":"the show notes, you'll find links to more"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3907.52,"endTime":3911.81,"body":"information about the game, as well as info on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3911.81,"endTime":3917.24,"body":"Matteo and Kerry's work and a few other learning at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3911.81,"endTime":3917.24,"body":"play resources we reference during our conversations."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3918.41,"endTime":3923.15,"body":"If you've used daybreak or similar games as learning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3918.41,"endTime":3923.15,"body":"experiences for your students, I would love to hear"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3923.15,"endTime":3927.41,"body":"about it. You can text me your thoughts by clicking"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3923.15,"endTime":3927.41,"body":"the link in the show notes. Just be sure to include"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3927.41,"endTime":3931.7599999999998,"body":"your name since that doesn't come through"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3927.41,"endTime":3931.7599999999998,"body":"automatically. Or you can email me at Derek at Derek"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3931.7599999999998,"endTime":3937.88,"body":"Bruff dot org and you'd like more learning to play"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3931.7599999999998,"endTime":3937.88,"body":"interviews on the podcast. Let me know that too. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3937.91,"endTime":3943.43,"body":"really enjoy these, but I don't want to overwhelm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3937.91,"endTime":3943.43,"body":"listeners if this topic isn't of as much interest to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3943.43,"endTime":3949.38,"body":"them as it is to me. Intentional Teaching is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3943.43,"endTime":3949.38,"body":"sponsored by UPCEA, the Online and Professional"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3949.38,"endTime":3953.5299999999997,"body":"Education Association. In the show notes, you'll"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":3949.38,"endTime":3953.5299999999997,"body":"find a link to the UPCEA website."}]}