{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":39.68,"endTime":44.18,"body":"Welcome to Intentional Teaching, a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":39.68,"endTime":44.18,"body":"podcast aimed at educators to help them develop"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":44.18,"endTime":50.51,"body":"foundational teaching skills and explore new ideas"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":44.18,"endTime":50.51,"body":"and teaching. I'm your host, Derek Bruff. I hope"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":50.51,"endTime":55.4,"body":"this podcast helps you be more intentional in how"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":50.51,"endTime":55.4,"body":"you teach and in how you develop as a teacher over"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":55.4,"endTime":61.94,"body":"time. A few episodes ago, I talked with Marc Watkins"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":55.4,"endTime":61.94,"body":"of the University of Mississippi about the many ways"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":61.94,"endTime":67.19,"body":"that generative AI is beginning to intersect with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":61.94,"endTime":67.19,"body":"student learning. Mark noted that the newest"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":67.19,"endTime":73.4,"body":"versions of ChatGPT and similar tools are no longer"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":67.19,"endTime":73.4,"body":"just text generators, but multi-modal in nature."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":73.88,"endTime":79.85,"body":"That is, they can work with text and images and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":73.88,"endTime":79.85,"body":"audio and in some cases video too. To help us better"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":79.85,"endTime":85.37,"body":"understand what roles these AI tools might play in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":79.85,"endTime":85.37,"body":"multi-modal assignments. This episode features an"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":85.37,"endTime":91.31,"body":"interview I conducted earlier this year as part of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":85.37,"endTime":91.31,"body":"the slow read I ran of my 2019 both Intentional Tech."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":92.21000000000001,"endTime":97.69999999999999,"body":"One chapter of that book is about using technology"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":92.21000000000001,"endTime":97.69999999999999,"body":"for multimodal assignments and to bring some fresh"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":97.69999999999999,"endTime":103.94,"body":"perspectives to that topic. I talked with someone I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":97.69999999999999,"endTime":103.94,"body":"knew who was using an AI image generator in her"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":103.94,"endTime":110.21,"body":"professional work that someone was my wife, Emily"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":103.94,"endTime":110.21,"body":"Bruff. Emily is a marketer for Zondervan Academic,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":110.6,"endTime":115.67,"body":"and earlier this year she was completing an"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":110.6,"endTime":115.67,"body":"interesting, multi-modal project to support the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":115.67,"endTime":122.327,"body":"release of a new book called Know the Theologians."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":115.67,"endTime":122.327,"body":"In the interview, Emily shares her experience using"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":122.327,"endTime":128.82,"body":"an AI image generator to make theologian trading"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":122.327,"endTime":128.82,"body":"cards. And we extrapolate from that experience to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":128.82,"endTime":135.79899999999998,"body":"working with students with AI. I've been sharing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":128.82,"endTime":135.79899999999998,"body":"Emily's story at my talks for months now because it"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":135.79899999999998,"endTime":141.409,"body":"has a lot to say about the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":135.79899999999998,"endTime":141.409,"body":"expertise and generative A.I., and also because I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":141.409,"endTime":146.959,"body":"like talking about my wife. I have shared this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":141.409,"endTime":146.959,"body":"interview with Emily with my Patreon supporters back"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":146.959,"endTime":150.10899999999998,"body":"in February, and now I'm excited to share it here on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":146.959,"endTime":150.10899999999998,"body":"the podcast."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":152.1,"endTime":152.64,"body":"Hi, Emily."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":153.0,"endTime":153.32999999999998,"body":"Hi."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":153.39,"endTime":154.38,"body":"Welcome to my podcast."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":154.59,"endTime":155.39999999999998,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":155.57999999999998,"endTime":160.59699999999998,"body":"Glad to have you. Before we talk about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":155.57999999999998,"endTime":160.59699999999998,"body":"this project in front of us, can you tell us about a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":160.59699999999998,"endTime":162.697,"body":"time when you realized you wanted to be an educator?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":163.207,"endTime":163.80700000000002,"body":"MM"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":166.92899999999997,"endTime":177.51100000000002,"body":"Well, wow, that's a question. I think it was"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":166.92899999999997,"endTime":177.51100000000002,"body":"probably way back when I was in school, in my"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":177.51100000000002,"endTime":187.529,"body":"undergrad work, and I was teaching some kids at camp"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":177.51100000000002,"endTime":187.529,"body":"how to do art and I was like, Well, that was"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":187.529,"endTime":193.16899999999998,"body":"exhilarating. Maybe I could do that for a living."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":187.529,"endTime":193.16899999999998,"body":"And so then I did that for a living for a while."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":193.829,"endTime":196.79899999999998,"body":"Yes, you did. Yeah. And what do you do"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":193.829,"endTime":196.79899999999998,"body":"for a living now?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":197.519,"endTime":204.47899999999998,"body":"Now I am a marketer for Zondervan,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":197.519,"endTime":204.47899999999998,"body":"academic. So I get to market books, which sounds"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":204.47899999999998,"endTime":210.11899999999997,"body":"like a long way away from teaching art. But it has"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":204.47899999999998,"endTime":210.11899999999997,"body":"more overlaps than you think."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":210.50900000000001,"endTime":215.66899999999998,"body":"as we will get into today. Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":210.50900000000001,"endTime":215.66899999999998,"body":"what kind of books do you market?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":217.02300000000002,"endTime":222.723,"body":"I market theology books specifically"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":217.02300000000002,"endTime":222.723,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":224.32100000000003,"endTime":235.98399999999998,"body":"seminary level, some graduate, some undergraduate"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":224.32100000000003,"endTime":235.98399999999998,"body":"classes and some, you know, interested, curious"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":235.98399999999998,"endTime":236.644,"body":"laity."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":236.954,"endTime":243.454,"body":"Okay , Gotcha. So if I were if I were"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":236.954,"endTime":243.454,"body":"teaching in the seminary, I might assign one of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":243.454,"endTime":244.274,"body":"books that you market."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":244.29399999999998,"endTime":244.774,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":244.80399999999997,"endTime":245.644,"body":"Yeah. Okay."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":247.81799999999998,"endTime":255.228,"body":"What? Prior to this project, what kind of experience"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":247.81799999999998,"endTime":255.228,"body":"did you have with generative AI in your marketing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":255.228,"endTime":255.46800000000002,"body":"work?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":256.638,"endTime":264.408,"body":"Mostly we have we use a tool called"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":256.638,"endTime":264.408,"body":"Jasper through my company. And, you know, we have a"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":264.408,"endTime":274.579,"body":"big corporate license, and so we're able to really"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":264.408,"endTime":274.579,"body":"tailor it for our uses. If we needed to come up with"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":275.388,"endTime":280.908,"body":"20 different tweets for a particular book launch, it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":275.388,"endTime":280.908,"body":"would help us as a starting point."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":281.288,"endTime":281.528,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":281.598,"endTime":288.108,"body":"I never leave them as is mostly because"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":281.598,"endTime":288.108,"body":"they have way too many emojis for my audience. But"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":289.018,"endTime":295.938,"body":"but it gives a good place to start and then we tweak"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":289.018,"endTime":295.938,"body":"it down and fine tune it and it saves us a lot of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":295.938,"endTime":302.118,"body":"time on that front. And we do other things like"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":295.938,"endTime":302.118,"body":"summarizing manuscripts or"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":303.93399999999997,"endTime":309.844,"body":"coming up with engaging questions for study guides"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":303.93399999999997,"endTime":309.844,"body":"or things like that that might be based on the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":309.844,"endTime":314.224,"body":"manuscript that we need more content for."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":314.404,"endTime":316.474,"body":"Okay. So you can feed in an entire book."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":316.804,"endTime":317.094,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":317.13399999999996,"endTime":320.49399999999997,"body":"And have it summarize things, generate"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":317.13399999999996,"endTime":320.49399999999997,"body":"questions, etc.."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":321.214,"endTime":326.344,"body":"We can feed it an entire book and we"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":321.214,"endTime":326.344,"body":"can assign it a particular brand voice or a"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":326.344,"endTime":333.06399999999996,"body":"particular human voice, if you wish. Not a literal"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":326.344,"endTime":333.06399999999996,"body":"voice. When I say voice like, not like you're"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":333.06399999999996,"endTime":336.274,"body":"talking to me, right? But like, how would you talk"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":333.06399999999996,"endTime":336.274,"body":"on Twitter?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":336.574,"endTime":337.924,"body":"Right. My writing style."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":337.924,"endTime":338.37399999999997,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":338.404,"endTime":342.644,"body":"Yeah. So you can you can tell it to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":338.404,"endTime":342.644,"body":"sound like one of your authors."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":342.664,"endTime":343.084,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":343.56399999999996,"endTime":346.18399999999997,"body":"Okay. How does it do? A good job?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":346.56399999999996,"endTime":347.104,"body":"Sometimes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":347.13399999999996,"endTime":351.85499999999996,"body":"Sometimes, Yeah. Okay. All right. Which"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":347.13399999999996,"endTime":351.85499999999996,"body":"is why I never just take its ouput and run with it."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":351.945,"endTime":352.35499999999996,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":352.365,"endTime":360.315,"body":"You've got to. Okay. Well, you recently"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":352.365,"endTime":360.315,"body":"spent some quality time with Jasper's image"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":360.315,"endTime":366.22499999999997,"body":"generator for a project. Can you. What can. What can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":360.315,"endTime":366.22499999999997,"body":"you tell us about this project?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":367.24899999999997,"endTime":374.239,"body":"Well, I was wanting to do a pre-order"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":367.24899999999997,"endTime":374.239,"body":"bonus for one of my books. That's coming out called"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":374.239,"endTime":382.36899999999997,"body":"Know the Theologians by Jennifer and David McNutt."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":374.239,"endTime":382.36899999999997,"body":"They're professors at Wheaton, and they have this"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":382.36899999999997,"endTime":390.289,"body":"incredible book that is very accessible. You know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":382.36899999999997,"endTime":390.289,"body":"it's very academic, but it's also very accessible,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":390.289,"endTime":396.199,"body":"which is a really fun book for me to market. Not"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":390.289,"endTime":396.199,"body":"that I don't love marketing commentaries, but this"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":396.199,"endTime":403.12899999999996,"body":"is just a little more fun. And so the audience reach"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":396.199,"endTime":403.12899999999996,"body":"was going to be a little wider, more undergraduate"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":403.849,"endTime":411.966,"body":"and more, you know, curious person who might just"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":403.849,"endTime":411.966,"body":"want to know more about theologians. And so I wanted"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":411.966,"endTime":418.626,"body":"a fun pre-order bonus, and we were brainstorming and"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":411.966,"endTime":418.626,"body":"we thought it would be fun to make a set of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":419.046,"endTime":426.486,"body":"theologian trading cards. And, you know, I have some"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":419.046,"endTime":426.486,"body":"budget, but I didn't have a budget to pay an artist"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":426.486,"endTime":429.70599999999996,"body":"to create 18 different portraits of theologians."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":429.726,"endTime":430.176,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":431.13599999999997,"endTime":439.686,"body":"So I did have in my budget some money"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":431.13599999999997,"endTime":439.686,"body":"to spend on a designer. But again, I needed to give"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":439.686,"endTime":446.58599999999996,"body":"her a head start. So I used the image generator and"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":439.686,"endTime":446.58599999999996,"body":"one of the templates within the image generator to"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":446.58599999999996,"endTime":451.89599999999996,"body":"come up with the first pass of these portraits of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":446.58599999999996,"endTime":451.89599999999996,"body":"the theologians. And I thought, Hey, this will be a"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":451.89599999999996,"endTime":459.036,"body":"really quick, easy. Stick it in and see what it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":451.89599999999996,"endTime":459.036,"body":"spits out kind of situation. And it was a little"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":459.036,"endTime":462.936,"body":"more involved than that, but I ended up coming out"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":459.036,"endTime":462.936,"body":"with a pretty good,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":464.736,"endTime":472.356,"body":"pretty good set of trading cards. But I will"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":464.736,"endTime":472.356,"body":"definitely say with the help of the PhDs who wrote"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":472.356,"endTime":477.306,"body":"the book and also the designer to tweak and refine"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":472.356,"endTime":477.306,"body":"all of those images."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":477.546,"endTime":482.82599999999996,"body":"Okay. So I want to get into that. But"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":477.546,"endTime":482.82599999999996,"body":"first, what do they look like? Can you describe. We"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":482.82599999999996,"endTime":487.08599999999996,"body":"have a we have a printout of these trading cards in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":482.82599999999996,"endTime":487.08599999999996,"body":"front of us here. What do they look like on the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":487.08599999999996,"endTime":487.926,"body":"front and on the back?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":488.779,"endTime":497.62899999999996,"body":"So the front is sort of a monochromatic"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":488.779,"endTime":497.62899999999996,"body":"printmaking style portrait of the bust of whatever"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":497.62899999999996,"endTime":502.459,"body":"the theologian, whoever the theologian is. And"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":497.62899999999996,"endTime":502.459,"body":"there's fun facts."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":502.669,"endTime":503.86899999999997,"body":"Fun facts about theologians."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":504.049,"endTime":511.549,"body":"Yes, there's lots of fun facts about"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":504.049,"endTime":511.549,"body":"theologians. And then there's also on the back of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":511.549,"endTime":516.0790000000001,"body":"all the cards is the kind of a remix of the book"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":511.549,"endTime":516.0790000000001,"body":"cover."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":516.169,"endTime":523.192,"body":"Okay. Yeah. And so we have I see"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":516.169,"endTime":523.192,"body":"Augustine of Hippo and Martin Luther, John, Calvin"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":524.392,"endTime":528.145,"body":"Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":528.625,"endTime":529.915,"body":"Julian of Norwich."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":530.125,"endTime":535.895,"body":"Julian of Norwich, Teresa of Avila and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":530.125,"endTime":535.895,"body":"the Cappadocian Four."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":536.155,"endTime":536.635,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":536.665,"endTime":540.715,"body":"Is that a a rock band or a superhero"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":536.665,"endTime":540.715,"body":"team?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":541.825,"endTime":543.505,"body":"I like to think they're superheroes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":545.1850000000001,"endTime":552.9250000000001,"body":"Fourth century theologians. Okay, so."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":545.1850000000001,"endTime":552.9250000000001,"body":"So we have the portraits, as you said, monochromatic,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":552.9250000000001,"endTime":558.115,"body":"so kind of black looking like a print on a on a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":552.9250000000001,"endTime":558.115,"body":"solid colored background."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":560.355,"endTime":569.186,"body":"So what was a tell me about the process of working"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":560.355,"endTime":569.186,"body":"with the AI tool here? What what, what was it easy"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":569.186,"endTime":572.606,"body":"to get the AI to generate and what was what was"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":569.186,"endTime":572.606,"body":"harder to work with?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":574.5350000000001,"endTime":579.965,"body":"It was easier to get the AI to do an"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":574.5350000000001,"endTime":579.965,"body":"image"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":583.826,"endTime":589.316,"body":"of someone particular. Well, you would think that it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":583.826,"endTime":589.316,"body":"would have been easier for them to get for the AI,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":589.316,"endTime":594.356,"body":"to get an image of someone that we knew what they"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":589.316,"endTime":594.356,"body":"look like. But it's funny because that ended up"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":594.356,"endTime":596.836,"body":"being one of the more difficult. Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":597.566,"endTime":599.9060000000001,"body":"Like a like a martin Luther or a John"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":597.566,"endTime":599.9060000000001,"body":"Calvin."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":600.446,"endTime":606.596,"body":"The Wesley Brothers. We we that one was"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":600.446,"endTime":606.596,"body":"in particular very difficult for some reason, for"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":606.8960000000001,"endTime":616.183,"body":"for AI to understand. For example, it came out with"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":606.8960000000001,"endTime":616.183,"body":"three or four brothers and there was only two."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":616.243,"endTime":616.753,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":617.383,"endTime":623.9830000000001,"body":"It came out with, you know, even though"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":617.383,"endTime":623.9830000000001,"body":"I had. So I would input the name of the theologian"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":624.3430000000001,"endTime":633.6610000000001,"body":"and I would say, come up with a portrait of this"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":624.3430000000001,"endTime":633.6610000000001,"body":"theologian in this century and create it in the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":633.6610000000001,"endTime":641.611,"body":"style of a trading card or something like that. So"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":633.6610000000001,"endTime":641.611,"body":"it would come out with first, I made the mistake of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":641.611,"endTime":645.811,"body":"saying sports trading cards, and then all of them"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":641.611,"endTime":645.811,"body":"had, you know, sports equipment and baseball caps."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":646.081,"endTime":646.5310000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":646.8910000000001,"endTime":654.3910000000001,"body":"So that was a no go and then if until I"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":646.8910000000001,"endTime":654.3910000000001,"body":"realized I need to start saying bust of said"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":654.7810000000001,"endTime":663.0010000000001,"body":"theologian. It would have all, you know, full body"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":654.7810000000001,"endTime":663.0010000000001,"body":"length, crazy hands, multiple, you know, five or six"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":663.0010000000001,"endTime":663.961,"body":"hands sometimes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":664.111,"endTime":664.471,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":665.941,"endTime":672.2710000000001,"body":"And then there were some you know, it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":665.941,"endTime":672.2710000000001,"body":"would hallucinate glasses for people in the fourth"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":672.2710000000001,"endTime":676.711,"body":"century or, you know, so really strange kind of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":672.2710000000001,"endTime":676.711,"body":"things"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":678.565,"endTime":685.6750000000001,"body":"that you would think maybe it wouldn't do because"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":678.565,"endTime":685.6750000000001,"body":"even when I would say no glasses or no eyewear, it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":685.6750000000001,"endTime":692.605,"body":"didn't understand that command at all. So that's"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":685.6750000000001,"endTime":692.605,"body":"where the designer really came in to be useful, to"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":692.605,"endTime":696.745,"body":"be able to really fine tune fine tune those specific"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":692.605,"endTime":696.745,"body":"details."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":697.839,"endTime":702.4590000000001,"body":"So you mentioned using a template in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":697.839,"endTime":702.4590000000001,"body":"the tool. What what do you mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":703.217,"endTime":710.1170000000001,"body":"Well, I tried to use the free form"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":703.217,"endTime":710.1170000000001,"body":"version of the art generator because I thought that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":710.1170000000001,"endTime":716.657,"body":"might work better because I wouldn't constrain it as"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":710.1170000000001,"endTime":716.657,"body":"much. And I thought if I could say specifically what"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":716.657,"endTime":724.6370000000001,"body":"I wanted, like monochromatic ink drawing, then it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":716.657,"endTime":724.6370000000001,"body":"would come out with maybe what I wanted. But it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":724.6370000000001,"endTime":731.327,"body":"didn't understand any of those words. And so it"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":724.6370000000001,"endTime":731.327,"body":"would have, you know, full fledged paintings full"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":731.327,"endTime":737.837,"body":"color when I said monochromatic ink drawing. And so"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":731.327,"endTime":737.837,"body":"there was a template of ink drawings."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":738.047,"endTime":738.467,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":738.557,"endTime":743.297,"body":"And that's what I ended up putting in,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":738.557,"endTime":743.297,"body":"because I suppose they had been able to train that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":743.297,"endTime":745.9970000000001,"body":"particular template on what an ink drawing was."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":746.057,"endTime":749.407,"body":"Gotcha. And I assume you had a lot of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":746.057,"endTime":749.407,"body":"different options for templates."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":749.437,"endTime":749.827,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":749.947,"endTime":752.947,"body":"Okay. But this was the one that matched"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":749.947,"endTime":752.947,"body":"the look that you were going for."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":753.0070000000001,"endTime":753.407,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":753.457,"endTime":757.9870000000001,"body":"So then everything that came out was"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":753.457,"endTime":757.9870000000001,"body":"any drawing of some sort."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":758.077,"endTime":758.527,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":758.567,"endTime":765.1270000000001,"body":"Okay. And then you said there were some"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":758.567,"endTime":765.1270000000001,"body":"kind of keywords that you needed to to either use or"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":765.1270000000001,"endTime":765.817,"body":"not use."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":765.9970000000001,"endTime":766.3570000000001,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":766.4870000000001,"endTime":773.0600000000001,"body":"Right. So bust gave you a kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":766.4870000000001,"endTime":773.0600000000001,"body":"shoulder up image of the person in question."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":774.0970000000001,"endTime":777.817,"body":"Mentioning glasses was problematic. Mentioning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":774.0970000000001,"endTime":777.817,"body":"sports was problematic."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":777.827,"endTime":778.687,"body":"Yes. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":781.0780000000001,"endTime":781.498,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":784.099,"endTime":786.3190000000001,"body":"So is there anything that wasn't problematic?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":789.596,"endTime":794.1260000000001,"body":"Martin Luther actually came out pretty"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":789.596,"endTime":794.1260000000001,"body":"well. And I think it's because he's one of the more"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":794.1260000000001,"endTime":802.196,"body":"famous theologians. There's lots of images of him."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":794.1260000000001,"endTime":802.196,"body":"And so that one was fairly straightforward."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":805.696,"endTime":806.236,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":806.686,"endTime":807.7660000000001,"body":"Otherwise, it was a lot of."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":807.7660000000001,"endTime":808.986,"body":"A lot of them were problematic."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":809.416,"endTime":811.726,"body":"Yeah. Tell me about the Cappadocian"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":809.416,"endTime":811.726,"body":"Four."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":812.5360000000001,"endTime":819.6460000000001,"body":"Well, AI doesn't think that women are"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":812.5360000000001,"endTime":819.6460000000001,"body":"theologians. Okay. Apparently. So I eventually,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":819.6460000000001,"endTime":820.696,"body":"instead of saying."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":821.6,"endTime":825.2,"body":"So, that so the cappadocian four, I'm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":821.6,"endTime":825.2,"body":"seeing three men and one woman."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":825.35,"endTime":825.7700000000001,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":825.8000000000001,"endTime":827.5400000000001,"body":"Right. So that was that was your goal?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":827.6,"endTime":838.97,"body":"Yes. And and they're from the fourth"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":827.6,"endTime":838.97,"body":"century. And so if I used create a group portrait of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":838.97,"endTime":847.82,"body":"the cappadocian Four theologians from the fourth"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":838.97,"endTime":847.82,"body":"century, it would not only generate a group portrait"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":847.82,"endTime":851.33,"body":"of like six or seven people, but they were always"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":847.82,"endTime":851.33,"body":"men."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":851.48,"endTime":851.9000000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":852.08,"endTime":861.519,"body":"And so I had to be very specific. Three"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":852.08,"endTime":861.519,"body":"men, one woman, fourth century. And even that didn't"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":861.519,"endTime":866.229,"body":"always work. It would hallucinate more. It didn't"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":861.519,"endTime":866.229,"body":"unders. It can't count apparently. It doesn't like"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":866.229,"endTime":866.639,"body":"to count."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":866.649,"endTime":872.889,"body":"It doesn't like to count. And it you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":866.649,"endTime":872.889,"body":"know, I've talked to many times about the biases in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":872.889,"endTime":878.9300000000001,"body":"the training data for these AI tools, and presumably"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":872.889,"endTime":878.9300000000001,"body":"it doesn't have a lot of experience working with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":878.9300000000001,"endTime":881.6600000000001,"body":"images of fourth century female theologians."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":882.0500000000001,"endTime":883.61,"body":"That's probably true."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":883.85,"endTime":888.8000000000001,"body":"Right, right, right. And so you had to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":883.85,"endTime":888.8000000000001,"body":"actually kind of take out the theologian part in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":888.8000000000001,"endTime":890.12,"body":"order to kind of overcome that."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":890.3000000000001,"endTime":890.63,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":890.7800000000001,"endTime":891.1700000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":892.931,"endTime":898.8100000000001,"body":"So one of the things that I've been saying a lot for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":892.931,"endTime":898.8100000000001,"body":"a while when working with faculty is that experts"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":898.8100000000001,"endTime":904.69,"body":"can use AI to get expert level results, but novices"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":898.8100000000001,"endTime":904.69,"body":"can't. They tend to get novice or maybe kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":904.69,"endTime":908.71,"body":"novice plus results. Mm hmm. Does that resonate with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":904.69,"endTime":908.71,"body":"your experience on this project?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":909.25,"endTime":918.94,"body":"Absolutely. I mean, you know, I have a"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":909.25,"endTime":918.94,"body":"degree in fine art. I have a I have a doctorate of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":918.94,"endTime":923.38,"body":"ministry, but I am not an expert in any way of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":925.013,"endTime":931.1930000000001,"body":"because my training is Protestant. I don't have much"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":925.013,"endTime":931.1930000000001,"body":"knowledge at all about all of the symbolism that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":931.1930000000001,"endTime":932.153,"body":"goes into"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":933.9530000000001,"endTime":943.6030000000001,"body":"clergy icons or symbols or, you know, attire and"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":933.9530000000001,"endTime":943.6030000000001,"body":"what that might mean or even what a shaved head"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":943.6030000000001,"endTime":946.4830000000001,"body":"means versus a head full of hair."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":946.7230000000001,"endTime":947.053,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":947.113,"endTime":957.0740000000001,"body":"And so when I was passing my proofs"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":947.113,"endTime":957.0740000000001,"body":"back and forth from the authors to the designer, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":957.0740000000001,"endTime":964.0640000000001,"body":"know, I could only go so far. I was a very good"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":957.0740000000001,"endTime":964.0640000000001,"body":"translator because I was an I'm an artist with some"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":964.5740000000001,"endTime":973.964,"body":"theological training between the Ph.Ds and the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":964.5740000000001,"endTime":973.964,"body":"designer. But there was a lot of things like the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":973.964,"endTime":981.7040000000001,"body":"miter for Anselm of Canterbury, like he needed to"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":973.964,"endTime":981.7040000000001,"body":"have that hat, that very specific hat. And even the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":981.7040000000001,"endTime":987.854,"body":"authors were like, We teach in our classes. You'll"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":981.7040000000001,"endTime":987.854,"body":"know Anselm by his hat, or you'll know these"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":987.854,"endTime":995.0540000000001,"body":"theologians by their attire, their symbols. And so"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":987.854,"endTime":995.0540000000001,"body":"it was really important to get, you know, the the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":995.0540000000001,"endTime":997.784,"body":"clerical robes right for the Wesley Brothers."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":999.374,"endTime":1006.5740000000001,"body":"And, you know, Teresa of Avila was Spanish. So her"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":999.374,"endTime":1006.5740000000001,"body":"particular head covering needed to look different"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1006.5740000000001,"endTime":1008.464,"body":"than Julian, Julian of Norwich."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1008.644,"endTime":1013.864,"body":"Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's interesting to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1008.644,"endTime":1013.864,"body":"hear you say that, because I have gone to art"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1013.864,"endTime":1021.5400000000001,"body":"museums with you. And if there's a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1013.864,"endTime":1021.5400000000001,"body":"Renaissance painting of some scene from the Bible,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1021.87,"endTime":1027.69,"body":"there's a lot of symbolism that's used. And you're"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1021.87,"endTime":1027.69,"body":"really familiar with that kind of symbolism, because"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1027.69,"endTime":1033.33,"body":"that's something you would have taught in your art"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1027.69,"endTime":1033.33,"body":"history courses. But the head coverings of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1033.33,"endTime":1040.23,"body":"particular orders of of nuns is not something that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1033.33,"endTime":1040.23,"body":"you're that hasn't come up in art history very often."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1040.56,"endTime":1045.93,"body":"At least not in the art history that I"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1040.56,"endTime":1045.93,"body":"studied, I'm sure. I mean, there's layers and layers"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1045.93,"endTime":1051.57,"body":"upon layers of art history. And that was just not"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1045.93,"endTime":1051.57,"body":"one that I, as a Protestant, particularly, am well,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1051.57,"endTime":1053.0,"body":"well-versed in culture."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1053.4,"endTime":1057.24,"body":"But the authors of the book were able"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1053.4,"endTime":1057.24,"body":"to give feedback and say, No, it's more like this."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1057.24,"endTime":1057.96,"body":"It should be that."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1057.99,"endTime":1058.28,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1058.29,"endTime":1060.98,"body":"Yeah. That's fascinating."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1064.26,"endTime":1066.61,"body":"Yeah. Are there any other particular"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1068.09,"endTime":1071.3899999999999,"body":"theologians where you remember some some back and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1068.09,"endTime":1071.3899999999999,"body":"forth on."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1072.01,"endTime":1080.29,"body":"Karl Barth's hair was a was a thorn in"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1072.01,"endTime":1080.29,"body":"the side. I don't know why AI wanted to make his"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1080.29,"endTime":1081.6399999999999,"body":"hair very poofy, but."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1081.85,"endTime":1082.1799999999998,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1082.33,"endTime":1087.9099999999999,"body":"We know exactly what he looks like. And"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1082.33,"endTime":1087.9099999999999,"body":"so that was kind of humorous. But we have many, many"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1087.9099999999999,"endTime":1090.01,"body":"conversations about Karl Barth's hair."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1091.6,"endTime":1093.1899999999998,"body":"Not something that's happened in my day"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1091.6,"endTime":1093.1899999999998,"body":"job."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1096.9399999999998,"endTime":1105.01,"body":"Menno Simons And I'm probably not even"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1096.9399999999998,"endTime":1105.01,"body":"saying these correctly, but he's wearing a skull cap"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1105.49,"endTime":1110.59,"body":"and he has a much longer beard. And the hat he was"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1105.49,"endTime":1110.59,"body":"originally in apparently looked more like a"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1110.59,"endTime":1119.73,"body":"fisherman's hat and yeah, there was a Dorothy Sayers"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1110.59,"endTime":1119.73,"body":"had a hat. For some reason AI thought she should be"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1119.73,"endTime":1122.73,"body":"wearing a hat and that's not really something she"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1119.73,"endTime":1122.73,"body":"did."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1122.73,"endTime":1129.87,"body":"So, no. You know, you had said you had"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1122.73,"endTime":1129.87,"body":"told me because. Because the tool keeps a record of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1129.87,"endTime":1133.5,"body":"all of your prompts. Yes. Like, how many prompts do"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1129.87,"endTime":1133.5,"body":"you think you use for all this?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1134.6699999999998,"endTime":1142.09,"body":"I had to go back and look at a couple"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1134.6699999999998,"endTime":1142.09,"body":"of previous and at that point it was over a hundred."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1142.11,"endTime":1148.26,"body":"And so I don't actually know how many I ended up"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1142.11,"endTime":1148.26,"body":"with, but for 18 portraits, there was over 100"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1148.26,"endTime":1148.74,"body":"prompts."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1148.8,"endTime":1149.74,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1150.21,"endTime":1153.1799999999998,"body":"And each prompt generated four options."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1153.21,"endTime":1154.3799999999999,"body":"Oh, sure. Okay."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1154.3799999999999,"endTime":1154.74,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1154.99,"endTime":1156.4499999999998,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1158.29,"endTime":1158.6799999999998,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1160.54,"endTime":1166.78,"body":"So you are you are an educator among the many hats"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1160.54,"endTime":1166.78,"body":"that you wear even. Well, I guess Dorothy Sayers, I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1166.78,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"don't know if she wears hats at all. You wear a lot"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1166.78,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"of virtual hats or metaphorical hats. So if I were"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1173.71,"endTime":1181.9399999999998,"body":"teaching a course that used this book, Know Your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1173.71,"endTime":1181.9399999999998,"body":"Theologians as a textbook, and I wanted to give my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1181.9399999999998,"endTime":1186.8899999999999,"body":"students the assignment of making more trading cards"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1181.9399999999998,"endTime":1186.8899999999999,"body":"with different theologians,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1189.3899999999999,"endTime":1196.1899999999998,"body":"how might the students use of AI be useful to their"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1189.3899999999999,"endTime":1196.1899999999998,"body":"learning, or maybe not useful to their learning?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1196.22,"endTime":1199.52,"body":"What How do you think this would play out as a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1196.22,"endTime":1199.52,"body":"student assignment?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1201.84,"endTime":1208.47,"body":"That's an interesting question. I think"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1201.84,"endTime":1208.47,"body":"it would be really fun to just assign, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1208.47,"endTime":1215.33,"body":"create, fill in the rest of the theologians from the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1208.47,"endTime":1215.33,"body":"book and maybe you pick the one that you want and"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1215.33,"endTime":1221.8999999999999,"body":"you assign everybody in the class a different"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1215.33,"endTime":1221.8999999999999,"body":"theologian. You know, it would be interesting"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1221.8999999999999,"endTime":1229.6999999999998,"body":"because the student would have to be very well"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1221.8999999999999,"endTime":1229.6999999999998,"body":"versed in the theologian and all of the symbolism"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1229.6999999999998,"endTime":1231.6699999999998,"body":"that went with that theologian's,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1234.56,"endTime":1239.6599999999999,"body":"you know, whatever their job was, whatever their"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1234.56,"endTime":1239.6599999999999,"body":"order, whatever their, you know, denomination in the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1239.6599999999999,"endTime":1240.1699999999998,"body":"church,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1241.9099999999999,"endTime":1247.52,"body":"whatever century they lived in, you know, it would"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1241.9099999999999,"endTime":1247.52,"body":"they would have to have an incredible amount of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1247.52,"endTime":1254.6,"body":"background knowledge to understand the image that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1247.52,"endTime":1254.6,"body":"they're producing with AI was accurate or"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1254.72,"endTime":1258.4099999999999,"body":"potentially accurate because, of course, we don't"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1254.72,"endTime":1258.4099999999999,"body":"know what all of them looked like. But"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1267.3899999999999,"body":"but that would require a great deal of research on"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1267.3899999999999,"body":"their part just to and it would be something that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1267.3899999999999,"endTime":1273.54,"body":"would probably be fairly quickly quick to grade for"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1267.3899999999999,"endTime":1273.54,"body":"the professor because they would be able to look at"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1273.54,"endTime":1278.6399999999999,"body":"it and immediately know, well, clearly, you didn't"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1273.54,"endTime":1278.6399999999999,"body":"read about the Wesley Brothers because there's four"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1278.6399999999999,"endTime":1279.6899999999998,"body":"guys here, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1280.0,"endTime":1280.26,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1280.6799999999998,"endTime":1289.62,"body":"Or this person is wearing a the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1280.6799999999998,"endTime":1289.62,"body":"completely wrong habit for their order of of monks"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1289.62,"endTime":1290.62,"body":"or whatever it is. So."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1290.6399999999999,"endTime":1292.6499999999999,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. You don't have the right"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1290.6399999999999,"endTime":1292.6499999999999,"body":"miter."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1293.1,"endTime":1298.11,"body":"That's right. And I don't again, I"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1293.1,"endTime":1298.11,"body":"would probably not do well at this project because I"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1299.1,"endTime":1300.84,"body":"have not well enough versed in this."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1301.1999999999998,"endTime":1306.6,"body":"Yeah. So it's interesting because I've"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1301.1999999999998,"endTime":1306.6,"body":"been thinking about the use of AI image generators"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1306.6,"endTime":1311.97,"body":"in multimodal assignments where we might ask"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1306.6,"endTime":1311.97,"body":"students to create something with images or video or"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1311.97,"endTime":1316.72,"body":"audio.And  my initial thought was that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1318.9399999999998,"endTime":1325.02,"body":"for something like this, I was going to focus on the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1318.9399999999998,"endTime":1325.02,"body":"text, on the training cards. What are the like two"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1325.02,"endTime":1330.1799999999998,"body":"or three most important things you would want to say"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1325.02,"endTime":1330.1799999999998,"body":"about this person? And the student could use the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1330.1799999999998,"endTime":1333.6599999999999,"body":"image generator to quickly generate an image that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1330.1799999999998,"endTime":1333.6599999999999,"body":"would go with that."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1335.4099999999999,"endTime":1344.9199999999998,"body":"But in fact, it sounds like creating a good image is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1335.4099999999999,"endTime":1344.9199999999998,"body":"is the harder task here and kind of the richer task"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1344.9199999999998,"endTime":1346.33,"body":"in terms of a learning perspective."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1346.3899999999999,"endTime":1353.05,"body":"Mm hmm. Yeah, because it was much more"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1346.3899999999999,"endTime":1353.05,"body":"labor intensive to create these images than it would"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1353.05,"endTime":1358.21,"body":"have been for me to upload their manuscript and ask"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1353.05,"endTime":1358.21,"body":"AI to summarize it."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1358.57,"endTime":1362.6599999999999,"body":"Yeah, right. It's going to do a pretty"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1358.57,"endTime":1362.6599999999999,"body":"decent job doing that."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1362.96,"endTime":1363.32,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1365.1,"endTime":1367.4399999999998,"body":"Well, and it's also I'm thinking of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1365.1,"endTime":1367.4399999999998,"body":"another"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1369.32,"endTime":1376.33,"body":"student project that I knew about at Vanderbilt,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1369.32,"endTime":1376.33,"body":"where students were taking parts of the Parthenon,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1376.54,"endTime":1383.74,"body":"the frieze, the sculpture on the exterior of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1376.54,"endTime":1383.74,"body":"Parthenon that had been worn away through time and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1383.74,"endTime":1389.53,"body":"creating a digital copy of that and then filling in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1383.74,"endTime":1389.53,"body":"the gaps. Right. Kind of reconstructing what was"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1389.52,"endTime":1396.3899999999999,"body":"missing and thinking about how it would have been"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1389.52,"endTime":1396.3899999999999,"body":"painted thousands of years ago. And it was not"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1396.3899999999999,"endTime":1401.97,"body":"really a creative project because students weren't"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1396.3899999999999,"endTime":1401.97,"body":"allowed to kind of go in any direction they wanted"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1401.97,"endTime":1405.9299999999998,"body":"to. They needed to make educated guesses about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1407.81,"endTime":1413.48,"body":"how were horses depicted, Right. How can we how can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1407.81,"endTime":1413.48,"body":"we fill in this half a horse, Right. What?What"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1413.48,"endTime":1420.3799999999999,"body":"paint, what materials were used at the time and what"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1413.48,"endTime":1420.3799999999999,"body":"would that look like? And so there wasn't a right"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1420.3799999999999,"endTime":1425.1499999999999,"body":"answer because we don't exactly know what the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1420.3799999999999,"endTime":1425.1499999999999,"body":"Parthenon would have looked like thousands of years"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1425.1499999999999,"endTime":1429.59,"body":"ago. But there were lots of wrong answers. Right."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1425.1499999999999,"endTime":1429.59,"body":"And so it was it was a way to kind of help the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1429.59,"endTime":1436.6999999999998,"body":"students dig into the the art history. There. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1429.59,"endTime":1436.6999999999998,"body":"I'm sensing the same kind of thing here that, like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1436.6999999999998,"endTime":1445.11,"body":"there's a lot of the lot of bad portraits of Anselm"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1436.6999999999998,"endTime":1445.11,"body":"of Canterbury. I can imagine to create a good one."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1445.31,"endTime":1449.84,"body":"You have to make a lot of educated choices and then"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1445.31,"endTime":1449.84,"body":"also work with the AI to give you the things that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1449.84,"endTime":1450.9499999999998,"body":"you're you're after."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1451.01,"endTime":1453.36,"body":"Yes. That's 100%."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1454.78,"endTime":1459.07,"body":"What did the the graphic designer end"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1454.78,"endTime":1459.07,"body":"up adding to the illustrations?"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1459.82,"endTime":1467.53,"body":"Mm hmm. So to make them look more"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1459.82,"endTime":1467.53,"body":"cohesive, the designer added a couple of layers of"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1467.53,"endTime":1477.25,"body":"texture to make it look more like printmaking. She"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1467.53,"endTime":1477.25,"body":"actually took out the white from the image so that"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1477.25,"endTime":1485.86,"body":"it was. It looked more like a print off a print"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1477.25,"endTime":1485.86,"body":"block. So instead of being a stark white, black and"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1485.86,"endTime":1489.79,"body":"color, it was purely monochromatic with black."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1491.56,"endTime":1492.8799999999999,"body":"And then, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1494.35,"endTime":1505.3,"body":"she was able to just add some mark making with, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1494.35,"endTime":1505.3,"body":"know, the outlines and and parts of their clothing"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1505.3,"endTime":1509.29,"body":"that sort of tied everything together in a unified"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1505.3,"endTime":1509.29,"body":"way."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1509.98,"endTime":1515.3799999999999,"body":"Gotcha. And that's where I can imagine"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1509.98,"endTime":1515.3799999999999,"body":"a student assignment might not include that piece"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1515.3799999999999,"endTime":1523.28,"body":"unless they were in a in a design course. Yeah. Okay."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1515.3799999999999,"endTime":1523.28,"body":"Well, thank you for this, Emily. This has been great."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1523.47,"endTime":1523.6599999999999,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1524.24,"endTime":1529.04,"body":"I appreciate you doing a little deep"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1524.24,"endTime":1529.04,"body":"dive into this project and Know the Theologians is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1529.04,"endTime":1529.6999999999998,"body":"coming out soon."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1529.9099999999999,"endTime":1535.1899999999998,"body":"Yes. Hey, if you want your very own set"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1529.9099999999999,"endTime":1535.1899999999998,"body":"of theologian trading cards, you can preorder the"},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1535.1899999999998,"endTime":1537.6499999999999,"body":"book. Preorder bonus right here."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1537.6799999999998,"endTime":1541.04,"body":"Absolutely. Well, thank you, Emily."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1537.6799999999998,"endTime":1541.04,"body":"Thanks for coming on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Emily Bruff","startTime":1541.47,"endTime":1542.52,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1545.1499999999999,"endTime":1551.03,"body":"That was Emily Bruff, marketer for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1545.1499999999999,"endTime":1551.03,"body":"Zondervan Academic, and also my wife Emily is far"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1551.03,"endTime":1555.83,"body":"more comfortable interviewing others on a podcast"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1551.03,"endTime":1555.83,"body":"than being interviewed herself. So I'm extra"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1555.83,"endTime":1561.73,"body":"thankful that she sat for this interview and shared"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1555.83,"endTime":1561.73,"body":"her experiences with our audience here. If like"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1561.73,"endTime":1566.4099999999999,"body":"Emily and me, you find the intersection of art and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1561.73,"endTime":1566.4099999999999,"body":"theology an interesting place, then you should go"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1566.4099999999999,"endTime":1571.81,"body":"visit Emily's website. See the show notes for a link"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1566.4099999999999,"endTime":1571.81,"body":"where you can learn more about her research, her art,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1571.81,"endTime":1578.5,"body":"and her consulting work. As I record this, Emily is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1571.81,"endTime":1578.5,"body":"busy preparing for Visio Divina, an art and faith"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1578.5,"endTime":1584.1999999999998,"body":"conference she's hosting in Nashville on September"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1578.5,"endTime":1584.1999999999998,"body":"14th. Again, see the show notes for a link for more"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1584.1999999999998,"endTime":1589.11,"body":"information about that very interesting conference."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1584.1999999999998,"endTime":1589.11,"body":"And if you'd like to hear more about the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1589.11,"endTime":1594.3,"body":"intersection of AI and art, then I recommend you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1589.11,"endTime":1594.3,"body":"scroll back a few episodes and listen to my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1594.3,"endTime":1600.96,"body":"interview with Pary Fassihi in episode 35. Pary"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1594.3,"endTime":1600.96,"body":"talks about her multi-modal AI assignments with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1601.32,"endTime":1607.1,"body":"great nuance and care. Intentional Teaching is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1601.32,"endTime":1607.1,"body":"sponsored by UPCEA, the Online and Professional"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1607.1,"endTime":1612.47,"body":"Education Association. In the show notes, you'll"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1607.1,"endTime":1612.47,"body":"find a link to the UPCEA website where you can find"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1612.47,"endTime":1618.1699999999998,"body":"out about their research networking opportunities"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1612.47,"endTime":1618.1699999999998,"body":"and professional development offerings. This episode"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1618.1699999999998,"endTime":1623.12,"body":"of Intentional Teaching was produced and edited by"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1618.1699999999998,"endTime":1623.12,"body":"me, Derek Bruff. See the show notes for links to my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1623.12,"endTime":1628.46,"body":"website, The intentional teaching newsletter and my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1623.12,"endTime":1628.46,"body":"Patreon where you can help support the show for just"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1628.46,"endTime":1633.86,"body":"a few bucks a month. If you found this or any"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1628.46,"endTime":1633.86,"body":"episode of intentional teaching useful, would you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1633.86,"endTime":1637.76,"body":"consider sharing it with a colleague? That would"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1633.86,"endTime":1637.76,"body":"mean a lot. As always, thanks for listening."}]}