{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":35.0,"endTime":35.3,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":39.769999999999996,"endTime":45.17,"body":"welcome to Intentional Teaching, a podcast aimed at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":39.769999999999996,"endTime":45.17,"body":"educators to help them develop foundational teaching"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":45.17,"endTime":51.769999999999996,"body":"skills and explore new ideas and teaching. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":45.17,"endTime":51.769999999999996,"body":"host, Derek Bruff. I hope this podcast helps you be"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":51.769999999999996,"endTime":57.41,"body":"more intentional in how you teach and in how you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":51.769999999999996,"endTime":57.41,"body":"develop as a teacher over time. Today, I'm excited"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":57.41,"endTime":63.59,"body":"to share the last of the interviews I conducted back"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":57.41,"endTime":63.59,"body":"in February 2024 as part of a slow read of my book,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":63.59,"endTime":69.41,"body":"Intentional Tech. The last chapter in that book"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":63.59,"endTime":69.41,"body":"focuses on using technology to connect students with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":69.8,"endTime":76.25,"body":"authentic audiences for their work. After writing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":69.8,"endTime":76.25,"body":"that chapter, I read Creating Wicked Students"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":76.78999999999999,"endTime":82.46000000000001,"body":"Designing Courses for a Complex World by Paul"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":76.78999999999999,"endTime":82.46000000000001,"body":"Hanstedt, where I was introduced to the idea of a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":82.46000000000001,"endTime":88.64,"body":"rhetorical triangle. I've used this idea in every"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":82.46000000000001,"endTime":88.64,"body":"workshop since where I needed to talk about the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":88.64,"endTime":94.49,"body":"authentic audience principle because it so elegantly"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":88.64,"endTime":94.49,"body":"explains why audience matters in the assignments we"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":94.49,"endTime":99.95,"body":"give students. As part of the slow read. I had"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":94.49,"endTime":99.95,"body":"planned to share a few bonus resources with my"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":99.95,"endTime":104.63,"body":"Patreon supporters, so I reached out to Paul"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":99.95,"endTime":104.63,"body":"Hanstedt to talk with him about the rhetorical"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":104.63,"endTime":109.58,"body":"triangle as a way for thinking intentionally about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":104.63,"endTime":109.58,"body":"writing assignments and other types of assignments."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":110.22,"endTime":115.71,"body":"We had a fantastic conversation that I shared on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":110.22,"endTime":115.71,"body":"Patreon at the time, and now I'm very glad to share"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":115.71,"endTime":121.106,"body":"the interview here on the main podcast feed. Paul is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":115.71,"endTime":121.106,"body":"currently serving as Vice Chancellor for Academic"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":121.106,"endTime":126.52,"body":"affairs and innovation at the University of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":121.106,"endTime":126.52,"body":"Minnesota, Rochester. That institution is not like"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":126.61,"endTime":131.38,"body":"other academic institutions, and we start our"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":126.61,"endTime":131.38,"body":"conversation by exploring some of those differences."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":131.92000000000002,"endTime":137.01999999999998,"body":"Then we talk about his new book, the second edition"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":131.92000000000002,"endTime":137.01999999999998,"body":"of General Education Essentials The Guide for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":137.05,"endTime":142.36,"body":"College Faculty, which came out earlier this year."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":137.05,"endTime":142.36,"body":"Paul has so much wisdom on the design of general"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":142.36,"endTime":147.91,"body":"education curricula and on the process of designing"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":142.36,"endTime":147.91,"body":"those curricula. Finally, w get around to talking"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":147.91,"endTime":152.05,"body":"about authentic audiences and rhetorical triangles."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":147.91,"endTime":152.05,"body":"We cover a lot of ground in this interview, and I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":152.05,"endTime":153.45999999999998,"body":"think you will find it inspiring."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":155.98000000000002,"endTime":160.14999999999998,"body":"Paul, thank you so much for being on international"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":155.98000000000002,"endTime":160.14999999999998,"body":"teaching. I'm excited to talk with you today about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":160.14999999999998,"endTime":162.51999999999998,"body":"lots of different topics and thanks for coming on"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":160.14999999999998,"endTime":162.51999999999998,"body":"the podcast."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":162.57999999999998,"endTime":163.87,"body":"My pleasure. I'm delighted."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":165.43599999999998,"endTime":170.05599999999998,"body":"Let me start with my usual opening"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":165.43599999999998,"endTime":170.05599999999998,"body":"question. Can you tell us about a time when you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":170.05599999999998,"endTime":171.89600000000002,"body":"realized you wanted to be an educator?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":172.24599999999998,"endTime":181.546,"body":"Oh, yeah, I can. It was in my senior"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":172.24599999999998,"endTime":181.546,"body":"year of college. It was an October day in Decorah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":181.546,"endTime":182.236,"body":"Iowa."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":184.572,"endTime":192.85199999999998,"body":"We were it was one of those fall autumn days where"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":184.572,"endTime":192.85199999999998,"body":"the sky was a dark, cloudy, gray. And in such a way"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":192.85199999999998,"endTime":201.312,"body":"that it brought out the colors on the trees and made"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":192.85199999999998,"endTime":201.312,"body":"them even brighter somehow. And I was sitting next"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":201.312,"endTime":204.762,"body":"to the window, and I think I'd gone and played"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":201.312,"endTime":204.762,"body":"racquetball this morning. So I had kind of a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":205.09199999999998,"endTime":211.272,"body":"dopamine endorphin and feeling going on. And I was I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":205.09199999999998,"endTime":211.272,"body":"was just kind of sitting there listening to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":211.272,"endTime":218.38799999999998,"body":"class, not really participating. And it was a poetry"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":211.272,"endTime":218.38799999999998,"body":"class. And the professor asked a question, and then"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":218.38799999999998,"endTime":223.27800000000002,"body":"no one responded and asked the question and no one"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":218.38799999999998,"endTime":223.27800000000002,"body":"responded. So I finally raised my hand and sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":223.308,"endTime":229.06799999999998,"body":"gave an answer. And he said, Yeah, that's that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":223.308,"endTime":229.06799999999998,"body":"good. And and the conversation continued. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":229.06799999999998,"endTime":236.531,"body":"remember thinking, I felt more comfortable in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":229.06799999999998,"endTime":236.531,"body":"classroom having these discussions than anywhere"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":236.531,"endTime":236.95100000000002,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":237.221,"endTime":237.51100000000002,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":238.86899999999997,"endTime":241.529,"body":"Yeah, It was a very distinct moment."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":242.18099999999998,"endTime":247.72699999999998,"body":"Wow. And that motivated you to pursue a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":242.18099999999998,"endTime":247.72699999999998,"body":"career where you could keep having those those"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":247.72699999999998,"endTime":248.78699999999998,"body":"conversations, right?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":249.197,"endTime":254.35699999999997,"body":"Yeah. Well, there was, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":249.197,"endTime":254.35699999999997,"body":"after my senior year, I went back to England where"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":254.35699999999997,"endTime":260.567,"body":"I'd started a band and rejoined that band. But when."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":254.35699999999997,"endTime":260.567,"body":"When, when when fame and fortune didn't come calling."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":260.627,"endTime":261.127,"body":"Okay?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":262.307,"endTime":263.837,"body":"Ye. Then I went on to grad school."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":263.957,"endTime":268.367,"body":"Yeah, well, you know. It's nice. To"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":263.957,"endTime":268.367,"body":"have a safety plan."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":269.147,"endTime":269.627,"body":"You know."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":270.827,"endTime":274.60699999999997,"body":"Ph.D. in literature. As your. Fallback."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":274.757,"endTime":277.687,"body":"As your fallback? Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":279.527,"endTime":283.877,"body":"Well, let's. Fast forward a little bit."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":279.527,"endTime":283.877,"body":"You have recently made a pretty big career change"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":284.747,"endTime":291.887,"body":"moving to the University of Minnesota. Roche. Mm hmm."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":284.747,"endTime":291.887,"body":"What motivated that career change, and what are you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":291.887,"endTime":295.517,"body":"hoping to accomplish in your new position at the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":291.887,"endTime":295.517,"body":"University of Minnesota?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":295.907,"endTime":303.04699999999997,"body":"Yeah, I. So I'm going to try not to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":295.907,"endTime":303.04699999999997,"body":"let this become too long of a story. I was a my my"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":303.04699999999997,"endTime":307.60699999999997,"body":"first institution out of graduate school was Roanoke"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":303.04699999999997,"endTime":307.60699999999997,"body":"College, and it was a wonderful place to be. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":307.60699999999997,"endTime":314.837,"body":"loved the work that I was doing there. I was there"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":307.60699999999997,"endTime":314.837,"body":"for 23 years, so I loved being there. But after 23"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":314.837,"endTime":319.907,"body":"years and 19 of them had me commuting about 100"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":314.837,"endTime":319.907,"body":"miles a day. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":322.01099999999997,"endTime":326.481,"body":"I was kind of ready for a change. Got an offer at"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":322.01099999999997,"endTime":326.481,"body":"another institution that I where I could walk to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":326.481,"endTime":333.381,"body":"work. Seemed very convenient. Ended up being"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":326.481,"endTime":333.381,"body":"probably a little too convenient. Love the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":333.381,"endTime":338.45099999999996,"body":"colleagues wasn't a particularly good fit. Wasn't"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":333.381,"endTime":338.45099999999996,"body":"the kind of place where I could innovate and build"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":338.45099999999996,"endTime":339.02099999999996,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":340.941,"endTime":350.166,"body":"So I'd been there. It was the kind of place, frankly,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":340.941,"endTime":350.166,"body":"where the pandemic made it better because at least I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":350.166,"endTime":355.38599999999997,"body":"was useful and my usefulness was so foregrounded. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":350.166,"endTime":355.38599999999997,"body":"founded a center for teaching and learning there and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":355.866,"endTime":360.276,"body":"and helped, you know, I was able to keep busy and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":355.866,"endTime":360.276,"body":"feel like I was really being having meaning doing"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":360.276,"endTime":365.577,"body":"meaningful work during the pandemic. After that, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":360.276,"endTime":365.577,"body":"kind of looked around and thought, I just don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":365.577,"endTime":373.137,"body":"think this is for me. And I was kind of looking"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":365.577,"endTime":373.137,"body":"around and then search firm reached out to me and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":373.137,"endTime":378.537,"body":"said, you know, this places this, this place. And I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":373.137,"endTime":378.537,"body":"simply looked at Minnesota because my wife's family"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":378.537,"endTime":385.35699999999997,"body":"is here. And the search firm said, this place is not"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":378.537,"endTime":385.35699999999997,"body":"like any other place. And I've kind of I've worked"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":385.35699999999997,"endTime":389.837,"body":"for a lot of places. So I was kind of like oh cute."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":385.35699999999997,"endTime":389.837,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":390.74699999999996,"endTime":393.04699999999997,"body":"Those places are like most other places,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":390.74699999999996,"endTime":393.04699999999997,"body":"you know."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":393.417,"endTime":396.777,"body":"And most places insist they're not"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":393.417,"endTime":396.777,"body":"like any others. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":398.54699999999997,"endTime":403.947,"body":"and then I got on the website and I thought, Wow,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":398.54699999999997,"endTime":403.947,"body":"this place is not like any other place. And for for"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":403.947,"endTime":409.137,"body":"tenured and tenure track faculty, scholarship of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":403.947,"endTime":409.137,"body":"teaching and learning is the primary form of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":409.137,"endTime":410.36699999999996,"body":"research that they do."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":410.99699999999996,"endTime":411.417,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":412.04699999999997,"endTime":417.477,"body":"I don't know if there's any other"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":412.04699999999997,"endTime":417.477,"body":"place in the world like the self they've got for"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":417.507,"endTime":423.23699999999997,"body":"learning outcomes. Self-Regulated learning is one of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":417.507,"endTime":423.23699999999997,"body":"them. So they're being very intentional about"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":423.23699999999997,"endTime":429.777,"body":"putting the students in a position to succeed. There"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":423.23699999999997,"endTime":429.777,"body":"are no departments. Everybody is in the Center for"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":429.777,"endTime":436.007,"body":"Learning Innovation. That is it. So you have"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":429.777,"endTime":436.007,"body":"technologists next the historians, next to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":436.007,"endTime":444.86699999999996,"body":"philosophers next to chemists and they work together."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":436.007,"endTime":444.86699999999996,"body":"A lot of collaborative teaching. It is just like any"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":445.077,"endTime":447.447,"body":"unlike any other place that I've ever encountered."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":449.164,"endTime":453.304,"body":"Does it have a particular focus in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":449.164,"endTime":453.304,"body":"terms of degrees and majors?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":453.724,"endTime":457.56399999999996,"body":"Yeah, well, it's in Rochester,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":453.724,"endTime":457.56399999999996,"body":"Minnesota, and so when I look out my window, I can"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":457.56399999999996,"endTime":458.584,"body":"see the Mayo Clinic"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":460.234,"endTime":461.794,"body":"and and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":464.464,"endTime":465.484,"body":"we not idiots."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":466.454,"endTime":467.364,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":467.674,"endTime":468.604,"body":"So there's."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":468.914,"endTime":470.49399999999997,"body":"There's a lot of health professions,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":468.914,"endTime":470.49399999999997,"body":"action."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":470.854,"endTime":477.69399999999996,"body":"Possibilities  there. Right. So, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":470.854,"endTime":477.69399999999996,"body":"it is health services facing, but broadly written"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":478.834,"endTime":484.714,"body":"public health as well. You know, one of the sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":478.834,"endTime":484.714,"body":"leading students who's about to graduate in June is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":484.714,"endTime":490.804,"body":"going to become an educator. Right. So we we we we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":484.714,"endTime":490.804,"body":"approach health services. We're dedicated health"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":490.804,"endTime":493.144,"body":"services. 80% of our students have some sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":494.284,"endTime":501.094,"body":"substantial interaction with Mayo Clinic as an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":494.284,"endTime":501.094,"body":"internship, as a undergraduate research work study,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":501.63399999999996,"endTime":508.74399999999997,"body":"shadowing any any number of things. So it really is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":501.63399999999996,"endTime":508.74399999999997,"body":"focused on that. But we approach it very, very"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":508.74399999999997,"endTime":517.654,"body":"broadly. We open in 15 or 2009, 15 years ago, and we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":508.74399999999997,"endTime":517.654,"body":"were built from the ground up to be different and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":517.654,"endTime":523.684,"body":"delightfully so. I mean, Laurie, my boss, is also a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":517.654,"endTime":523.684,"body":"former Center for Teaching and Learning director."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":525.567,"endTime":535.647,"body":"Yeah, it's it is it is a delightful place to be. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":525.567,"endTime":535.647,"body":"mean, I come home grinning, you know, that's after"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":535.737,"endTime":542.697,"body":"12 meetings, back to back meetings, all great. But"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":535.737,"endTime":542.697,"body":"I'm just surrounded by I mean, we because of our"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":542.727,"endTime":548.187,"body":"uniqueness, we attract unique people. We attract"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":542.727,"endTime":548.187,"body":"people with personalities, with the sense of humor."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":548.547,"endTime":555.897,"body":"Almost every one of our faculty has a road to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":548.547,"endTime":555.897,"body":"Damascus story where they talk about working in chem"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":555.897,"endTime":560.2470000000001,"body":"labs, you know, doing bench work and being"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":555.897,"endTime":560.2470000000001,"body":"successful and enjoying it, but thinking, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":560.7570000000001,"endTime":566.787,"body":"there's where's what else is there? And then they"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":560.7570000000001,"endTime":566.787,"body":"find scholarship of teaching and learning and how do"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":566.787,"endTime":575.667,"body":"we make chemistry accessible? We we are 67%"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":566.787,"endTime":575.667,"body":"historically and structurally marginalized students."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":577.527,"endTime":587.745,"body":"40% students of color. 40% First gen."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":577.527,"endTime":587.745,"body":"We have no achievement gap."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":589.806,"endTime":590.916,"body":"Wow. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":591.546,"endTime":596.6460000000001,"body":"And it's not because we've lowered"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":591.546,"endTime":596.6460000000001,"body":"standards. Just because because we are able to focus"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":597.186,"endTime":600.096,"body":"thoughtfully. I mean, it is."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":600.096,"endTime":605.937,"body":"Whereas most institutions I know, if"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":600.096,"endTime":605.937,"body":"they start to break out their grades and student"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":605.937,"endTime":610.677,"body":"success data by demographic groups, there's these"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":605.937,"endTime":610.677,"body":"big gaps in kind of the places you would expect to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":610.677,"endTime":613.8870000000001,"body":"see them. And so you don't see that at. Rochester."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":614.157,"endTime":616.2270000000001,"body":"No, it's it's it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":617.711,"endTime":621.731,"body":"delightful. And our students are it's just an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":617.711,"endTime":621.731,"body":"invigorating place to be."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":622.3910000000001,"endTime":628.481,"body":"I also want to ask you about your book,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":622.3910000000001,"endTime":628.481,"body":"General Education Essentials. And so I understand"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":628.481,"endTime":634.1210000000001,"body":"from social media that I think today is the official"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":628.481,"endTime":634.1210000000001,"body":"publication date of the second edition."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":634.2710000000001,"endTime":635.831,"body":"I can't remember. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":636.921,"endTime":642.5210000000001,"body":"Right around here. Yeah. So. So this is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":636.921,"endTime":642.5210000000001,"body":"a book about general education and you know how a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":642.5210000000001,"endTime":646.241,"body":"second edition that's coming out about, I think, 12"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":642.5210000000001,"endTime":646.241,"body":"years after the first edition."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":646.451,"endTime":646.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":647.351,"endTime":653.0210000000001,"body":"So what, what motivated the second"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":647.351,"endTime":653.0210000000001,"body":"edition? What led you to go back there and dig into"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":653.0210000000001,"endTime":653.7710000000001,"body":"this topic again?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":654.596,"endTime":660.0260000000001,"body":"Well, when the first edition came out,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":654.596,"endTime":660.0260000000001,"body":"there really weren't and still aren't, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":660.0260000000001,"endTime":665.366,"body":"books about general education dedicated to general"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":660.0260000000001,"endTime":665.366,"body":"education, general education reform, and the really"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":665.366,"endTime":673.106,"body":"thoughtful ways that we can approach it. And so the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":665.366,"endTime":673.106,"body":"first edition concentrated on sort of integrative"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":673.106,"endTime":678.2660000000001,"body":"approaches and the implications of that for student"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":673.106,"endTime":678.2660000000001,"body":"learning and the implications of that for what we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":678.2660000000001,"endTime":686.0360000000001,"body":"did in the classroom and and really how to make"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":678.2660000000001,"endTime":686.0360000000001,"body":"something that was oftentimes sort of dismissed, get"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":686.0360000000001,"endTime":690.056,"body":"it out of the way into something meaningful and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":686.0360000000001,"endTime":690.056,"body":"powerful and impactful with students."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":692.0360000000001,"endTime":697.826,"body":"And then, you know, you know, how this is. And then"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":692.0360000000001,"endTime":697.826,"body":"I went on the road and I became part of the faculty"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":697.826,"endTime":703.226,"body":"of the AAC\u0026U Institute on General Education and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":697.826,"endTime":703.226,"body":"Assessment. Now, I think it's general education,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":703.226,"endTime":704.8760000000001,"body":"pedagogy and assessment"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":706.736,"endTime":714.5060000000001,"body":"and just worked with dozens and dozens of schools,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":706.736,"endTime":714.5060000000001,"body":"you know, maybe five dozen individually. And then at"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":714.5060000000001,"endTime":723.013,"body":"that institute, you know, another 2 to 300. And the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":714.5060000000001,"endTime":723.013,"body":"content shifts the way we can rethink general"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":723.013,"endTime":727.6030000000001,"body":"education, make it more powerful or were an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":723.013,"endTime":727.6030000000001,"body":"important part of the argument. And I really focused"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":727.6030000000001,"endTime":734.173,"body":"on that in the first book, in the second edition and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":727.6030000000001,"endTime":734.173,"body":"over the years of working with a variety of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":734.173,"endTime":739.2130000000001,"body":"different schools and watching my own thinking"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":734.173,"endTime":739.2130000000001,"body":"evolve to, there are two changes in the second"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":739.2130000000001,"endTime":744.8530000000001,"body":"edition. The first one is there's about a 50 page"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":739.2130000000001,"endTime":744.8530000000001,"body":"section at the end of the book that talks about"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":744.8530000000001,"endTime":745.423,"body":"process."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":745.967,"endTime":746.447,"body":"Ok."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":747.017,"endTime":747.6170000000001,"body":"That."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":747.647,"endTime":748.1270000000001,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":748.297,"endTime":754.566,"body":"Yeah. That you can. It's great to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":748.297,"endTime":754.566,"body":"have great ideas, but if you can't move on your"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":754.566,"endTime":762.186,"body":"campus, you're not going to get very far. And and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":754.566,"endTime":762.186,"body":"there are some things we can do to make the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":762.186,"endTime":769.1460000000001,"body":"conversation more productive. Right. And part of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":762.186,"endTime":769.1460000000001,"body":"that, again, is sort of mindset approaches. Let's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":769.1460000000001,"endTime":775.206,"body":"make sure it's an intellectual conversation, not a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":769.1460000000001,"endTime":775.206,"body":"political one. I mean, part of that are just"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":775.3860000000001,"endTime":780.546,"body":"particular steps institutions can take. One of my"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":775.3860000000001,"endTime":780.546,"body":"favorite things is, you know, beginning the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":780.546,"endTime":787.686,"body":"conversation by having faculty generate a word cloud"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":780.546,"endTime":787.686,"body":"of their aspirations for the graduates of their"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":787.686,"endTime":796.296,"body":"institution. What does a graduate of UMR or Roanoke"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":787.686,"endTime":796.296,"body":"College or the University of Mississippi look like?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":796.566,"endTime":800.5260000000001,"body":"Right. How do they act? How do they interact with"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":796.566,"endTime":800.5260000000001,"body":"the world? I think think"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":801.9820000000001,"endTime":807.1120000000001,"body":"not less about the knowledge that they have, but how"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":801.9820000000001,"endTime":807.1120000000001,"body":"they use their knowledge. Right. What are their"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":807.1120000000001,"endTime":810.5020000000001,"body":"affective aspects? Who are they as people"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":812.1220000000001,"endTime":817.7620000000001,"body":"and and think aspirationally, think idealistically."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":812.1220000000001,"endTime":817.7620000000001,"body":"And I love to have them generate a word cloud and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":817.7620000000001,"endTime":822.562,"body":"then have a discussion about that word cloud,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":817.7620000000001,"endTime":822.562,"body":"anything surprising there, anything missing,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":822.772,"endTime":830.2320000000001,"body":"anything that should be bigger, anything that should"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":822.772,"endTime":830.2320000000001,"body":"be smaller, anything that should be taken out and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":830.2320000000001,"endTime":837.7460000000001,"body":"then do it again. And then the key points of that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":830.2320000000001,"endTime":837.7460000000001,"body":"word cloud become the beginning of the development"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":837.7460000000001,"endTime":843.1460000000001,"body":"of the general education learning outcomes that will"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":837.7460000000001,"endTime":843.1460000000001,"body":"drive the conversation. So just something like that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":843.3860000000001,"endTime":849.986,"body":"that gets the faculty from across the campus, from"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":843.3860000000001,"endTime":849.986,"body":"across disciplines, from across departments to think"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":849.986,"endTime":856.796,"body":"about what they have in common. Their students and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":849.986,"endTime":856.796,"body":"their goals for their students. Right? I mean, we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":856.796,"endTime":862.826,"body":"can become cynical. Am I allowed to say bastards?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":856.796,"endTime":862.826,"body":"Well, you become cynical. Sorry,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":863.7560000000001,"endTime":864.806,"body":"It's my podcast. I make the rules."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":865.1360000000001,"endTime":871.346,"body":"you do you can bleep me out if you"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":865.1360000000001,"endTime":871.346,"body":"want. But I'm so cynical, right? And and partly"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":871.346,"endTime":876.8960000000001,"body":"we're trained to be cynical and critical, and we see"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":871.346,"endTime":876.8960000000001,"body":"that as sort of who we are and what we add to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":876.8960000000001,"endTime":882.952,"body":"conversation. But but we're also idealistic. We work"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":876.8960000000001,"endTime":882.952,"body":"so hard and so long"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":885.172,"endTime":893.902,"body":"and so tirelessly, finally, because we care about"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":885.172,"endTime":893.902,"body":"our courses and our students and learning and the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":893.902,"endTime":902.5010000000001,"body":"condition of the world that we live in. And we think"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":893.902,"endTime":902.5010000000001,"body":"that what we do matters. So now so find ways to work"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":902.5010000000001,"endTime":902.7710000000001,"body":"around that."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":902.7710000000001,"endTime":907.091,"body":"An process is so important too, because"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":902.7710000000001,"endTime":907.091,"body":"what I heard you say was you would do that near the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":907.091,"endTime":912.0110000000001,"body":"start of the process with all the faculty you can"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":907.091,"endTime":912.0110000000001,"body":"get in the room together. Whereas I feel like at a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":912.0110000000001,"endTime":918.341,"body":"lot of institutions, a move to revise the general ed"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":912.0110000000001,"endTime":918.341,"body":"curriculum starts with a, you know, select working"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":918.341,"endTime":923.051,"body":"group or committee where there's it maybe it's a big"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":918.341,"endTime":923.051,"body":"one, maybe there's 20 people in the room. But but"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":923.051,"endTime":927.971,"body":"it's not everyone. It's not engaging the entire"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":923.051,"endTime":927.971,"body":"faculty at the start of the process, which I think"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":927.971,"endTime":932.201,"body":"is critical because you need to do some kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":927.971,"endTime":932.201,"body":"visioning together as a faculty."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":932.291,"endTime":936.701,"body":"Yeah, Yeah. And one of the things"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":932.291,"endTime":936.701,"body":"that's really important in a gen ed revision and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":936.701,"endTime":943.4290000000001,"body":"this is something I emphasize is finding ways to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":936.701,"endTime":943.4290000000001,"body":"make sure the less dominant voices are heard, right?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":943.469,"endTime":950.159,"body":"Becaus oftentimes you will have senior faculty who"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":943.469,"endTime":950.159,"body":"feel empowered to stand up and speak, speak. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":950.159,"endTime":956.399,"body":"oftentimes that can be in favor of and oftentimes it"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":950.159,"endTime":956.399,"body":"can be against I my impression generally is, is that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":956.909,"endTime":962.8190000000001,"body":"people who are fearful of change are more outspoken"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":956.909,"endTime":962.8190000000001,"body":"and they can dominate the conversation. So can we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":962.8190000000001,"endTime":968.969,"body":"use poll everywhere? Well, that's an interesting"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":962.8190000000001,"endTime":968.969,"body":"comment there. You know, Professor Miller, can we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":969.149,"endTime":975.089,"body":"let's get a feel for the room right now and sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":969.149,"endTime":975.089,"body":"see. It can be. And that's useful for the general"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":975.119,"endTime":980.339,"body":"committee because it could be that everybody agrees"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":975.119,"endTime":980.339,"body":"with Dr. Miller. Sure, it could be that that nobody"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":980.339,"endTime":984.539,"body":"agrees with Dr. Miller, in which case, I can"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":980.339,"endTime":984.539,"body":"guarantee you Dr. Miller is probably not going to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":984.539,"endTime":984.9590000000001,"body":"quiet."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":986.729,"endTime":991.5590000000001,"body":"But but it's useful for the other people in the room"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":986.729,"endTime":991.5590000000001,"body":"to see or it could be that everybody's polarized and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":991.5590000000001,"endTime":998.24,"body":"all of those outcomes are really useful for moving"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":991.5590000000001,"endTime":998.24,"body":"forward. Yeah. The second thing that I just I don't"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":998.24,"endTime":1003.76,"body":"want to belabor the point, but the second thing that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":998.24,"endTime":1003.76,"body":"that that really changed is in my own thinking, in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1003.76,"endTime":1010.84,"body":"that I incorporate in this book is I still talk"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1003.76,"endTime":1010.84,"body":"about an integrative as opposed to a, you know, an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1010.84,"endTime":1016.2700000000001,"body":"integrated approach of general education that that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1010.84,"endTime":1016.2700000000001,"body":"foregrounds the interaction between fields and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1016.2700000000001,"endTime":1022.2700000000001,"body":"disciplines and courses and our lives rather than"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1016.2700000000001,"endTime":1022.2700000000001,"body":"the content. So it's not just about a sociology"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1022.2700000000001,"endTime":1027.97,"body":"course, a biology course and the art history course."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1022.2700000000001,"endTime":1027.97,"body":"It's about how those interact, what do you learn in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1027.97,"endTime":1032.98,"body":"one that's going to be powerful in another, what are"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1027.97,"endTime":1032.98,"body":"the differences between the two? What analogies play"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1033.22,"endTime":1039.52,"body":"back and forth between the two? In the second"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1033.22,"endTime":1039.52,"body":"edition, I still focus on that. I still think that's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1039.52,"endTime":1044.35,"body":"really important. That is as far as some"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1039.52,"endTime":1044.35,"body":"universities are going to get. But I really start"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1044.35,"endTime":1052.45,"body":"focusing on high impact practices as a. Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1044.35,"endTime":1052.45,"body":"the fact is there's no evidence that a breadth or"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1052.45,"endTime":1057.76,"body":"distribution model, but there might be evidence that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1052.45,"endTime":1057.76,"body":"a broader distribution model is powerful. And of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1057.76,"endTime":1064.1299999999999,"body":"course, we know that breadth is valuable, but we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1057.76,"endTime":1064.1299999999999,"body":"have evidence at a high impact practice that high"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1064.1299999999999,"endTime":1071.03,"body":"impact practices really have an impact on students."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1064.1299999999999,"endTime":1071.03,"body":"Sure, that they actually do work, particularly in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1071.03,"endTime":1072.59,"body":"terms of equity and inclusion."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1072.9199999999998,"endTime":1080.1799999999998,"body":"Mm hmm. Now, what is a high impact"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1072.9199999999998,"endTime":1080.1799999999998,"body":"practice? Because I know that is a particular piece"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1080.1799999999998,"endTime":1084.05,"body":"of jargon that has a lot of definition and meaning"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1080.1799999999998,"endTime":1084.05,"body":"to it. But I don't know if our listeners."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1084.3799999999999,"endTime":1088.49,"body":"That's there know, I'm like, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1084.3799999999999,"endTime":1088.49,"body":"good, good pushback on that. I mean, the terminology"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1088.49,"endTime":1094.76,"body":"comes out of a work from the AAC\u0026U, you and the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1088.49,"endTime":1094.76,"body":"National Survey for student engagement in in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1094.76,"endTime":1099.86,"body":"2000. And I think generally people point to George"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1094.76,"endTime":1099.86,"body":"Kuh"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1102.1999999999998,"endTime":1108.08,"body":"as sort of the leading voice on that. But his work,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1102.1999999999998,"endTime":1108.08,"body":"you know, he certainly is a leading voice and a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1108.08,"endTime":1113.9299999999998,"body":"powerful mind. And also, I will admit, a friend of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1108.08,"endTime":1113.9299999999998,"body":"mine and a fellow alum, from from Luther College,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1113.9299999999998,"endTime":1118.96,"body":"which is one of the. So but, you know, he was"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1113.9299999999998,"endTime":1118.96,"body":"working with a lot of different people. Julianne"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1118.97,"endTime":1120.26,"body":"McKinsey and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1122.9499999999998,"endTime":1129.28,"body":"Carol, Gary Schneider and just all sorts of folks,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1122.9499999999998,"endTime":1129.28,"body":"Ashley Finley, You know, it's just a lot of really"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1129.28,"endTime":1137.71,"body":"wonderful folks. And but it basically comes down to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1129.28,"endTime":1137.71,"body":"a lot of research looking at what actually has an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1137.71,"endTime":1145.78,"body":"impact on students, what helps students when they"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1137.71,"endTime":1145.78,"body":"graduate, you know, be able to solve problems, be"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1145.78,"endTime":1151.87,"body":"able to think critically, be able to communicate"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1145.78,"endTime":1151.87,"body":"productively and effectively. You know, all the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1151.87,"endTime":1156.82,"body":"things that we're really kind of looking for. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1151.87,"endTime":1156.82,"body":"originally there's a list of ten that included"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1156.82,"endTime":1163.87,"body":"things like first year seminars, capstone courses,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1156.82,"endTime":1163.87,"body":"undergraduate research, internships, writing"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1163.87,"endTime":1169.1499999999999,"body":"intensive courses, courses that featured heavily"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1163.87,"endTime":1169.1499999999999,"body":"collaboration, learning communities, those kinds of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1169.1499999999999,"endTime":1174.21,"body":"things. It's like the Seven Dwarfs. I'm never gonna"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1169.1499999999999,"endTime":1174.21,"body":"be able to name all ten. And then I want to say"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1174.26,"endTime":1174.3999999999999,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1174.3999999999999,"endTime":1174.97,"body":"But there's a list."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1175.9299999999998,"endTime":1182.98,"body":"Yeah, there's a list. And then in the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1175.9299999999998,"endTime":1182.98,"body":"late teens, Kuh went back and added E portfolios. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1183.4099999999999,"endTime":1189.6399999999999,"body":"and me and, and Kinsey have been pretty careful"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1183.4099999999999,"endTime":1189.6399999999999,"body":"about making the argument that, listen, it's not"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1189.6399999999999,"endTime":1198.72,"body":"just these practices, it's a careful implementation"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1189.6399999999999,"endTime":1198.72,"body":"of these practices that focuses on on time, on task,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1200.07,"endTime":1207.4199999999998,"body":"public sharing of findings, or an understanding of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1200.07,"endTime":1207.4199999999998,"body":"the implications outside of the academic community"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1207.4199999999998,"endTime":1213.54,"body":"for the work that you're doing. Regular feedback"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1207.4199999999998,"endTime":1213.54,"body":"from both peers and faculty members, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1213.6599999999999,"endTime":1219.3,"body":"things that really have been around for a long time"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1213.6599999999999,"endTime":1219.3,"body":"we can go back to Dewey for that stuff, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1220.85,"endTime":1227.3999999999999,"body":"So I remember when I saw that list of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1220.85,"endTime":1227.3999999999999,"body":"ten of these kind of structures that were known to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1227.3999999999999,"endTime":1233.4299999999998,"body":"have a lot of impact on students, I thought at least"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1227.3999999999999,"endTime":1233.4299999999998,"body":"are the places I've been either as a student or as"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1233.6399999999999,"endTime":1239.37,"body":"or as a faculty member or staff member. These are"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1233.6399999999999,"endTime":1239.37,"body":"things that some some students experience"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1239.37,"endTime":1245.6699999999998,"body":"occasionally in their curriculum. Yeah, none of them"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1239.37,"endTime":1245.6699999999998,"body":"are kind of across the board and none of them happen"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1245.6699999999998,"endTime":1246.57,"body":"regularly. Right."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1246.8999999999999,"endTime":1250.1699999999998,"body":"Right. And I'll tell you what, I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1246.8999999999999,"endTime":1250.1699999999998,"body":"can't tell you the number of times I've been in an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1250.1699999999998,"endTime":1253.77,"body":"institution where I'm talking about this and someone"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1250.1699999999998,"endTime":1253.77,"body":"will raise their hand and go, Well, I'm the director"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1253.77,"endTime":1259.6399999999999,"body":"of the honors program, and we have all those things"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1253.77,"endTime":1259.6399999999999,"body":"in the honors program right? So think about that."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1259.6399999999999,"endTime":1265.86,"body":"The best students on campus get the most impactful"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1259.6399999999999,"endTime":1265.86,"body":"practices I did"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1267.56,"endTime":1269.27,"body":"boggles the mind."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1271.1599999999999,"endTime":1272.11,"body":"And that's."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1272.1499999999999,"endTime":1273.5,"body":"There's another way to think about that."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1274.1499999999999,"endTime":1280.52,"body":"Think about that so that actually"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1274.1499999999999,"endTime":1280.52,"body":"there is evidence, you know, from going back 14"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1280.52,"endTime":1286.9399999999998,"body":"years that shows that, yes, they benefit everybody,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1280.52,"endTime":1286.9399999999998,"body":"but the lower the in incoming A.C.T. score, the more"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1286.9399999999998,"endTime":1291.1999999999998,"body":"benefits a person, the lower the GPA, the more it"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1286.9399999999998,"endTime":1291.1999999999998,"body":"benefits, the more the from a marginalized"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1291.53,"endTime":1297.02,"body":"population, the more it benefits them. You know, So"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1291.53,"endTime":1297.02,"body":"how about we work with that? And that's kind of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1297.02,"endTime":1304.3999999999999,"body":"argument. This is the second that I've added to the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1297.02,"endTime":1304.3999999999999,"body":"second edition is there are general education models"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1305.1699999999998,"endTime":1313.71,"body":"where the high impact practice leads. It's not a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1305.1699999999998,"endTime":1313.71,"body":"distributional aspect. It's learning communities at"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1313.71,"endTime":1321.72,"body":"Wagner College, it's asynchronous learning"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1313.71,"endTime":1321.72,"body":"communities at Drury University. It's a problem"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1321.72,"endTime":1326.73,"body":"based courses of Worcester Polytechnic, no problem."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1321.72,"endTime":1326.73,"body":"Again, problem based isn't designated as one of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1326.73,"endTime":1332.1,"body":"high impact practices, but implemented carefully"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1326.73,"endTime":1332.1,"body":"with all these elements. You know, this secret sauce"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1332.1,"endTime":1333.99,"body":"bits it can be."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1334.71,"endTime":1339.12,"body":"Let's take just one of those examples."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1334.71,"endTime":1339.12,"body":"So what would a general education curriculum built"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1339.12,"endTime":1342.27,"body":"around learning communities? What what could that"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1339.12,"endTime":1342.27,"body":"look like?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1342.3899999999999,"endTime":1343.07,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1343.1699999999998,"endTime":1345.48,"body":"Or what does that look like at some of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1343.1699999999998,"endTime":1345.48,"body":"the places you just named?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1345.6899999999998,"endTime":1351.99,"body":"Yeah. So Wagner College is a good"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1345.6899999999998,"endTime":1351.99,"body":"example. And what they have is in the first year,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1353.48,"endTime":1360.1399999999999,"body":"students have to engage in one learning community"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1353.48,"endTime":1360.1399999999999,"body":"that crosses three different core, that includes"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1360.1399999999999,"endTime":1367.74,"body":"three different courses and has a community based"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1360.1399999999999,"endTime":1367.74,"body":"experiential aspect to it. Okay, Wagner College is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1367.74,"endTime":1372.1499999999999,"body":"on Staten Island. They've got New York City. They're"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1367.74,"endTime":1372.1499999999999,"body":"you know, before they implemented this, they had"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1372.3899999999999,"endTime":1377.6299999999999,"body":"massive attrition problems. And then they looked and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1372.3899999999999,"endTime":1377.6299999999999,"body":"thought, you know, maybe we could use New York City"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1377.6699999999998,"endTime":1383.04,"body":"to our advantage. And so they brought it into their"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1377.6699999999998,"endTime":1383.04,"body":"curriculum. So students will engage in a learning"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1383.04,"endTime":1384.6299999999999,"body":"community. The first year will."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1384.86,"endTime":1390.1499999999999,"body":"So that means I'm a student, I'm taking"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1384.86,"endTime":1390.1499999999999,"body":"these three classes and all the students in those"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1390.1499999999999,"endTime":1395.1599999999999,"body":"classes are the same. Yep. Right. It's it's the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1390.1499999999999,"endTime":1395.1599999999999,"body":"group of us. We're all taking the same three classes"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1395.1599999999999,"endTime":1396.01,"body":"at the same time and."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1396.1,"endTime":1400.23,"body":"And we're crossing and consequently"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1396.1,"endTime":1400.23,"body":"we're sort of crossing the boundaries between those"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1400.23,"endTime":1406.4399999999998,"body":"classes, you know, well-implemented the faculty from"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1400.23,"endTime":1406.4399999999998,"body":"those classes will be in conversation with each"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1406.4399999999998,"endTime":1412.8,"body":"other so you can use. You know, I used to teach a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1406.4399999999998,"endTime":1412.8,"body":"humanities course called artistic and literary"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1412.8,"endTime":1420.3899999999999,"body":"responses to science and technology, and I would"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1412.8,"endTime":1420.3899999999999,"body":"have loved to link that up with a psychology"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1420.3899999999999,"endTime":1423.03,"body":"professor and a biology professor."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1423.03,"endTime":1424.1,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1427.6499999999999,"body":"And think about the things I could"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1424.32,"endTime":1427.6499999999999,"body":"have done in my course if I'd known some of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1427.6499999999999,"endTime":1431.1,"body":"things that were being covered in the biology course"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1427.6499999999999,"endTime":1431.1,"body":"and brought into play and think about some of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1431.1,"endTime":1435.21,"body":"things they could have done in the biology course"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1431.1,"endTime":1435.21,"body":"had they known what I was doing in my career."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1437.25,"endTime":1440.1,"body":"So and so they do at Wagner, they do one of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1437.25,"endTime":1440.1,"body":"first uses."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1441.1499999999999,"endTime":1445.53,"body":"It's it's kind of startling. I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1441.1499999999999,"endTime":1445.53,"body":"Oh, that's how my fourth graders curriculum works."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1445.77,"endTime":1446.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1447.48,"endTime":1452.9099999999999,"body":"She has two teachers. She, you know,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1447.48,"endTime":1452.9099999999999,"body":"one for English and social studies and one for"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1452.9099999999999,"endTime":1458.3999999999999,"body":"science and math. And they coordinate, right? And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1452.9099999999999,"endTime":1458.3999999999999,"body":"when they do it, well,there's  so much"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1458.3999999999999,"endTime":1460.47,"body":"cross-pollination between those two different"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1458.3999999999999,"endTime":1460.47,"body":"disciplines."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1460.8,"endTime":1466.47,"body":"And this is kind of part of it. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1460.8,"endTime":1466.47,"body":"mean, when we talk about gen ed and gen ed reform,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1466.47,"endTime":1476.22,"body":"in the process of gen ed, reform, it's a successful"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1466.47,"endTime":1476.22,"body":"conversation. Even if the curriculum that's proposed"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1476.22,"endTime":1483.3799999999999,"body":"fails, it's a successful conversation. If those"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1476.22,"endTime":1483.3799999999999,"body":"silos have been broken now, you know, and an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1483.3799999999999,"endTime":1490.72,"body":"institution needs to have a conversation like that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1483.3799999999999,"endTime":1490.72,"body":"regularly, you know, to check in about who we are"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1490.72,"endTime":1495.79,"body":"and what we're after and what we have in common and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1490.72,"endTime":1495.79,"body":"what the challenges are and what we want for our"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1495.79,"endTime":1505.6999999999998,"body":"students. S to not have that and then to expect"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1495.79,"endTime":1505.6999999999998,"body":"students to go from from one area to another area to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1505.6999999999998,"endTime":1511.76,"body":"another area without us helping them,oh  my God, if"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1505.6999999999998,"endTime":1511.76,"body":"we're not able to do it or willing to do it, and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1511.76,"endTime":1515.6,"body":"then to ask them to be able to do it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1521.9499999999998,"body":"So now let me ask let me kind of follow"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1515.6,"endTime":1521.9499999999998,"body":"up on that a little bit to see if you have some more"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1521.9499999999998,"endTime":1523.57,"body":"thoughts. I feel like there is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1525.6999999999998,"endTime":1531.1899999999998,"body":"there's been a growing critique of higher ed in the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1525.6999999999998,"endTime":1531.1899999999998,"body":"past couple of years that it is not worth the money"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1532.0,"endTime":1539.32,"body":"right now. It's not worth the time. It's not worth"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1532.0,"endTime":1539.32,"body":"the money. I think the kind of economics argument is"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1539.32,"endTime":1543.46,"body":"actually pretty solid, that if you have a if you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1539.32,"endTime":1543.46,"body":"have a if you have a bachelor's degree, your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1543.46,"endTime":1548.1399999999999,"body":"lifetime earnings potential is way higher than if"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1543.46,"endTime":1548.1399999999999,"body":"you don't So like. But that's not always persuasive."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1548.9499999999998,"endTime":1553.78,"body":"Do you find that there are ways to to kind of use"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1548.9499999999998,"endTime":1553.78,"body":"the general education curriculum and the revision"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1553.78,"endTime":1557.71,"body":"process there to try to articulate a different kind"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1553.78,"endTime":1557.71,"body":"of argument about higher ed?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1560.24,"endTime":1561.26,"body":"It's a very big question."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1561.26,"endTime":1562.6999999999998,"body":"But it is a very big. Question."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1562.6999999999998,"endTime":1563.72,"body":"You're the guy that ask it to."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1567.1999999999998,"endTime":1571.59,"body":"Yeah, I'm wishing I had another cup"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1567.1999999999998,"endTime":1571.59,"body":"of coffee. I think I think I might have a third cup."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1574.02,"endTime":1579.33,"body":"I do. And it's and it's and it's not unproblematic,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1574.02,"endTime":1579.33,"body":"right? Because"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1581.3899999999999,"endTime":1587.51,"body":"I don't want to slip into the neo liberal, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1581.3899999999999,"endTime":1587.51,"body":"the purp, you know that, you know, we're going to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1587.54,"endTime":1592.97,"body":"what we're going to do so that you can get a better"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1587.54,"endTime":1592.97,"body":"job. You getting a better job is a legitimate goal."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1594.87,"endTime":1601.82,"body":"But I also want you to have a meaningful job, a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1594.87,"endTime":1601.82,"body":"purposeful job, a sense of a sense of mission. I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1601.82,"endTime":1607.1,"body":"mean, one of the things I love about e portfolios as"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1601.82,"endTime":1607.1,"body":"a high impact practice, Randy Bass, as you know, in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1607.1,"endTime":1612.71,"body":"the building, you know, describing a community"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1607.1,"endTime":1612.71,"body":"college with a nursing program that had e portfolios."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1612.71,"endTime":1618.08,"body":"He goes therein lies the construction of that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1612.71,"endTime":1618.08,"body":"identity of a nurse, right? Yeah. I love that quote."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1618.47,"endTime":1622.79,"body":"But we want that. Therein lies the construction of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1618.47,"endTime":1622.79,"body":"the identity of an engineer. Therein lies the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1622.79,"endTime":1627.9199999999998,"body":"construction of the identity of a historian. Therein"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1622.79,"endTime":1627.9199999999998,"body":"lies the construction of the identity of a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1627.9199999999998,"endTime":1635.3899999999999,"body":"philosopher. I mean, those, y know, the deliberate"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1627.9199999999998,"endTime":1635.3899999999999,"body":"building of who I am and who I want to be and how I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1635.3899999999999,"endTime":1643.6399999999999,"body":"want to enter the world. And if we're not paying"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1635.3899999999999,"endTime":1643.6399999999999,"body":"attention to that, then all the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1645.82,"endTime":1656.22,"body":"external narratives that have an agenda are"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1645.82,"endTime":1656.22,"body":"happening. You know, I mean, even the many of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1656.22,"endTime":1662.4299999999998,"body":"arguments against higher ed are coming from a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1656.22,"endTime":1662.4299999999998,"body":"political stance with a political purpose that if we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1662.4299999999998,"endTime":1667.86,"body":"can, you know, the recognition that the more likely"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1662.4299999999998,"endTime":1667.86,"body":"people have you know university degrees, the more"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1667.86,"endTime":1673.3799999999999,"body":"likely that they're going to vote one way or the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1667.86,"endTime":1673.3799999999999,"body":"other. Right. So just as a name, the thing that we"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1673.3799999999999,"endTime":1682.24,"body":"all see is there are probably so I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1673.3799999999999,"endTime":1682.24,"body":"in the end, you know, I don't like using the term"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1683.1399999999999,"endTime":1687.1299999999999,"body":"general education. I mean, which is ironic because"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1683.1399999999999,"endTime":1687.1299999999999,"body":"my book."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1687.1299999999999,"endTime":1687.79,"body":"It's the name of your book,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1688.4199999999998,"endTime":1690.97,"body":"it's almost like I didn't get to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1688.4199999999998,"endTime":1690.97,"body":"choose a title."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1692.11,"endTime":1695.1999999999998,"body":"So we're to you how that works in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1692.11,"endTime":1695.1999999999998,"body":"publishing."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1695.74,"endTime":1701.59,"body":"Yeah, but the term liberal arts is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1695.74,"endTime":1701.59,"body":"the term that I prefer. And I know that's not"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1701.59,"endTime":1707.32,"body":"unproblematic. I was actually at one university that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1701.59,"endTime":1707.32,"body":"you might be familiar with where I was told that in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1707.32,"endTime":1717.21,"body":"this state we want to we can't use that term and but"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1707.32,"endTime":1717.21,"body":"liberal arts derives from ars liberalis, the arts by"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1717.21,"endTime":1725.73,"body":"which a person is free. And that's what we're after"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1717.21,"endTime":1725.73,"body":"were after students were after the opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1725.73,"endTime":1731.37,"body":"create students who walk into the world with a sense"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1725.73,"endTime":1731.37,"body":"of agency in their own lives that they aren't"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1731.58,"endTime":1738.33,"body":"defined by the narratives around them, whether"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1731.58,"endTime":1738.33,"body":"they're coming from a political party or from their"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1738.33,"endTime":1746.37,"body":"family or from higher education. Right? Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1738.33,"endTime":1746.37,"body":"that they have that agency in their lives. This is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1746.37,"endTime":1751.1699999999998,"body":"kind of finally the goal for. So I feel a little bit"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1746.37,"endTime":1751.1699999999998,"body":"like I can't tell if I'm completely on target for"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1751.1699999999998,"endTime":1756.8999999999999,"body":"the question you asked or completely off target, but"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1751.1699999999998,"endTime":1756.8999999999999,"body":"I think it could you know, I think it is it is for"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1756.8999999999999,"endTime":1763.1899999999998,"body":"me, it is about what kind of world that we live in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1756.8999999999999,"endTime":1763.1899999999998,"body":"and what kind of people do we need to have that will"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1763.1899999999998,"endTime":1769.11,"body":"be a successful, productive place? You know, where"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1763.1899999999998,"endTime":1769.11,"body":"we can cross, where we can have conversations with"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1769.11,"endTime":1774.6899999999998,"body":"each other and have an understanding of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1769.11,"endTime":1774.6899999999998,"body":"complexity of the people that we're we're surrounded"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1774.6899999999998,"endTime":1775.1399999999999,"body":"by."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1776.82,"endTime":1780.96,"body":"I want to take us now I'm imagining a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1776.82,"endTime":1780.96,"body":"video game where we're way up above the world and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1780.96,"endTime":1788.73,"body":"now we're going to zoom way in down, down to the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1780.96,"endTime":1788.73,"body":"ground right. Because and you mentioned this kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1788.73,"endTime":1793.6499999999999,"body":"in passing in terms of the kind of the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1788.73,"endTime":1793.6499999999999,"body":"thoughtfulness around particular pedagogies. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1793.9499999999998,"endTime":1799.6799999999998,"body":"So one of the chapters in my book is on using"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1793.9499999999998,"endTime":1799.6799999999998,"body":"technology to connect students to an authentic"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1799.6799999999998,"endTime":1800.6399999999999,"body":"audience for their work."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1800.8799999999999,"endTime":1801.33,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1801.57,"endTime":1805.83,"body":"And I had some experiences in my own in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1801.57,"endTime":1805.83,"body":"the writing course as I was teaching, where I got to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1805.83,"endTime":1812.6999999999998,"body":"see how the students kind of came alive and how they"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1805.83,"endTime":1812.6999999999998,"body":"engage more deeply. When we took some of their work"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1812.6999999999998,"endTime":1819.84,"body":"and made it public in a in one fashion or another,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1812.6999999999998,"endTime":1819.84,"body":"making it. And so then I went and I read your book"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1819.84,"endTime":1826.62,"body":"Creating Wicked Students, and there's a whole piece"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1819.84,"endTime":1826.62,"body":"in there about this rhetorical triangle and can you"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1826.62,"endTime":1831.6599999999999,"body":"tell us about the rhetorical triangle and kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1826.62,"endTime":1831.6599999999999,"body":"what role it can play in helping students engage in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1831.6599999999999,"endTime":1833.07,"body":"that more? More? Sure."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1833.34,"endTime":1837.27,"body":"Sure. Randy Bass once invited me into"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1833.34,"endTime":1837.27,"body":"a class he was teaching at Georgetown University,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1837.84,"endTime":1842.6999999999998,"body":"and the graduate students he was working with"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1837.84,"endTime":1842.6999999999998,"body":"greeted with greeted me with, Hey, it's the triangle"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1842.6999999999998,"endTime":1843.06,"body":"guy."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1845.07,"endTime":1852.84,"body":"So this is this is not an uncommon line of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1845.07,"endTime":1852.84,"body":"questioning. So this is I mean, I want to be very"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1852.84,"endTime":1857.49,"body":"specific. I'm not a I'm not a rhetorician by trade."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1852.84,"endTime":1857.49,"body":"I've done a lot of work in composition and rhetoric"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1857.49,"endTime":1861.57,"body":"all the way back to grad school, but I don't have a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1857.49,"endTime":1861.57,"body":"Ph.D. in the area, so I want to be a little careful"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1861.57,"endTime":1868.62,"body":"about that. And my my use of the rhetorical triangle"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1861.57,"endTime":1868.62,"body":"is loosely based on Aristotle, but okay. But I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1868.62,"endTime":1874.08,"body":"sure it's constructed in the way that the way that I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1868.62,"endTime":1874.08,"body":"think about it is that every rhetorical situation"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1874.08,"endTime":1880.23,"body":"has three aspects to it. The writer or speaker. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1874.08,"endTime":1880.23,"body":"topic about which they're writing or speaking and"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1880.23,"endTime":1885.99,"body":"the audience to whom they're writing or speaking,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1880.23,"endTime":1885.99,"body":"right? And, and a couple of things are important to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1886.46,"endTime":1893.34,"body":"just sort of take forward from that. One is that you"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1886.46,"endTime":1893.34,"body":"shift one of those things and everything else, the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1893.34,"endTime":1905.1899999999998,"body":"dynamics of everything else shift. So if a student"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1893.34,"endTime":1905.1899999999998,"body":"is writing about a class to their grandmother, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1905.1899999999998,"endTime":1910.59,"body":"going to be different than if a student is writing"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1905.1899999999998,"endTime":1910.59,"body":"about a party to their grandmother. Okay. If a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1910.59,"endTime":1916.02,"body":"student is writing and it's also going to be"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1910.59,"endTime":1916.02,"body":"different, then if a student is writing about a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1916.02,"endTime":1921.72,"body":"party to a friend or about a class to a friend,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1916.02,"endTime":1921.72,"body":"right. All of these are going to look different."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1921.72,"endTime":1925.62,"body":"They're going to have different language. They're"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1921.72,"endTime":1925.62,"body":"going to have different evidence that's presented."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1925.62,"endTime":1931.08,"body":"They're going to have different tone, a different"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1925.62,"endTime":1931.08,"body":"feel, a different dynamic to them. And what I love"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1931.08,"endTime":1938.25,"body":"about that is when one thing shifts, everything"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1931.08,"endTime":1938.25,"body":"shifts, right? So it's not just the audience"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1940.1399999999999,"endTime":1944.34,"body":"has an impact on on the language that I use. It has"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1940.1399999999999,"endTime":1944.34,"body":"an impact on what I'm going to talk about with the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1944.34,"endTime":1951.8,"body":"topic. It also has an impact on how I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1944.34,"endTime":1951.8,"body":"construct myself that the me that I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1951.8,"endTime":1956.6599999999999,"body":"present to Grandma and the me that I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1951.8,"endTime":1956.6599999999999,"body":"present to friends, the me that I'm going to present"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1956.6599999999999,"endTime":1963.08,"body":"to colleagues and the me that I'm going to present"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1956.6599999999999,"endTime":1963.08,"body":"to students are different. Right? All right. The"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1963.08,"endTime":1969.4499999999998,"body":"second thing, th, and that I'm in control of that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1963.08,"endTime":1969.4499999999998,"body":"I'm making some choices deliberately, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":1969.52,"endTime":1970.4199999999998,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1970.84,"endTime":1974.35,"body":"But of course, the choices that I'm"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1970.84,"endTime":1974.35,"body":"able to make are determined by the rhetorical"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1974.35,"endTime":1983.1699999999998,"body":"context that is set for me, wh is another way of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1974.35,"endTime":1983.1699999999998,"body":"saying that as academics we have power to shift the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1983.1699999999998,"endTime":1990.6,"body":"dynamics of the rhetorical situation. And so the way"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1983.1699999999998,"endTime":1990.6,"body":"it's we oftentimes lay it out when we're sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1991.3799999999999,"endTime":1995.9399999999998,"body":"going with traditional practices and and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1991.3799999999999,"endTime":1995.9399999999998,"body":"those traditional practices are perfectly"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1995.9399999999998,"endTime":2001.12,"body":"appropriate, say, in an advanced class within a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":1995.9399999999998,"endTime":2001.12,"body":"major. Right, write to scholars within the field."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2001.1299999999999,"endTime":2005.06,"body":"Okay. I'm about to graduate with this. I should be"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2001.1299999999999,"endTime":2005.06,"body":"able to do this right,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2006.84,"endTime":2009.1899999999998,"body":"is that we kind of take the assumption that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2013.3899999999999,"endTime":2021.53,"body":"that if a student can't write a good paper to me,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2013.3899999999999,"endTime":2021.53,"body":"the professor, it's because"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2022.97,"endTime":2028.07,"body":"they don't know the topic well enough. It's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2022.97,"endTime":2028.07,"body":"failure of their learning and their mastery of the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2028.07,"endTime":2035.72,"body":"content. In reality, as anybody who fears public"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2028.07,"endTime":2035.72,"body":"speaking or doesn't like writing knows, it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2035.72,"endTime":2044.23,"body":"actually fear of the audience. I can be a genius in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2035.72,"endTime":2044.23,"body":"the topic, but if I don't have a sense of my ability"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2044.4399999999998,"endTime":2052.3,"body":"to put words on the page, I'm stymied completely,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2044.4399999999998,"endTime":2052.3,"body":"right? So the way I kind of like to think about this"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2052.3,"endTime":2057.4900000000002,"body":"is that if we take the, you know, isometric"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2052.3,"endTime":2057.4900000000002,"body":"rhetorical triangle and we reshape it to more"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2057.4900000000002,"endTime":2062.53,"body":"accurately portray you've got the topic and the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2057.4900000000002,"endTime":2062.53,"body":"professor at the top of the triangle and student way"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2062.53,"endTime":2067.57,"body":"down at the bottom. And my my friend Nancy Welch,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2062.53,"endTime":2067.57,"body":"who is now retired, I think from the University of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2067.57,"endTime":2071.87,"body":"Vermont, used to say it looks so much like a dagger,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2067.57,"endTime":2071.87,"body":"you might as well put a handle on it."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2071.92,"endTime":2075.93,"body":"Oh, my gosh. Oh, I pointed at the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2071.92,"endTime":2075.93,"body":"student. Right."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2076.39,"endTime":2081.31,"body":"Pointed at the student. And think"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2076.39,"endTime":2081.31,"body":"about the consequences of that. Right. I mean, all"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2081.31,"endTime":2087.04,"body":"the maneuvers that students make because of that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2081.31,"endTime":2087.04,"body":"sense of powerlessness that they must have, you know,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2087.04,"endTime":2094.33,"body":"they don't even try or they fill the paper with"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2087.04,"endTime":2094.33,"body":"outside quotations because that's safer. Right? I"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2094.33,"endTime":2098.2,"body":"don't have the authority the professor does. So"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2094.33,"endTime":2098.2,"body":"here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to I'm going"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2098.2,"endTime":2103.87,"body":"to borrow other people's authority or they use"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2098.2,"endTime":2103.87,"body":"jargon to sound like they know what they're talking"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2103.87,"endTime":2109.15,"body":"about when they really don't or they cheat. In"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2103.87,"endTime":2109.15,"body":"reality, the professor is the authentic audience,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2109.42,"endTime":2114.73,"body":"but they're inauthentic because the student can't"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2109.42,"endTime":2114.73,"body":"rhetorically really meet the expectations of that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2123.97,"body":"audience. So what I strongly recommend, and this"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2114.73,"endTime":2123.97,"body":"comes from Jane Danielewicz and Jordan Jack is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2123.97,"endTime":2132.27,"body":"shifting to a less informed audience. So shift the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2123.97,"endTime":2132.27,"body":"dynamics so that instead having the audience above"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2132.6,"endTime":2139.2,"body":"the student in terms of what they know and being an"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2132.6,"endTime":2139.2,"body":"insider on this content, the audience is below the"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2139.2,"endTime":2146.0299999999997,"body":"student. They know less about the content, which"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2139.2,"endTime":2146.0299999999997,"body":"then pushes the student to assume authority, to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2146.69,"endTime":2152.36,"body":"assume mastery of the content to take it on,because"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2146.69,"endTime":2152.36,"body":"now they have to explain the concepts to somebody"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2152.36,"endTime":2160.91,"body":"else. And that often that's where authenticity comes"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2152.36,"endTime":2160.91,"body":"into play. Me as a 20 year old explaining to a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2160.91,"endTime":2168.2,"body":"professor something the professor already knows is"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2160.91,"endTime":2168.2,"body":"inauthentic. Yeah, me as a 20 year old, explaining"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2168.2,"endTime":2174.5,"body":"something about gender studies to a roomful of 12"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2168.2,"endTime":2174.5,"body":"year old boys that authentic, right. So I hope that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2174.5,"endTime":2177.47,"body":"made sense, but that's how I got it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2178.0099999999998,"endTime":2181.52,"body":"So what could that look like in terms"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2178.0099999999998,"endTime":2181.52,"body":"of an assignment for students?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2182.79,"endTime":2185.37,"body":"Mm. Any number of things. It,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2189.72,"endTime":2199.02,"body":"you know, Jordan, Jack and Jane, Danielewicz sort of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2189.72,"endTime":2199.02,"body":"break it down into an unfamiliar audience and then a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2199.02,"endTime":2206.58,"body":"general or a popular audience. So it could look like"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2199.02,"endTime":2206.58,"body":"an op ed explaining voter fraud in your newspaper,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2206.61,"endTime":2214.83,"body":"right, to a general population it could look like."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2206.61,"endTime":2214.83,"body":"And that example of a of a you know, I was running a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2214.83,"endTime":2219.96,"body":"workshop in Delaware once and someone who taught a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2214.83,"endTime":2219.96,"body":"gender studies class said, you know, I keep having"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2219.96,"endTime":2226.29,"body":"my students do oral presentations to everybody else"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2219.96,"endTime":2226.29,"body":"in the room who already knows this stuff because"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2226.29,"endTime":2228.59,"body":"they've already been, you know, and it's boring."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2226.29,"endTime":2228.59,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2229.16,"endTime":2230.0099999999998,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2230.7,"endTime":2233.97,"body":"She said. So what I want them to do"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2230.7,"endTime":2233.97,"body":"now, what I'm going to have them do now is talk"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2233.97,"endTime":2238.5299999999997,"body":"about gender studies and constructions of maleness"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2233.97,"endTime":2238.5299999999997,"body":"to a room. Imagine they're doing it to a roomful of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2238.5299999999997,"endTime":2243.5099999999998,"body":"12 year old boys, which has a purposefulness to it"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2238.5299999999997,"endTime":2243.5099999999998,"body":"right there, meaningfulness to it."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2243.96,"endTime":2247.98,"body":"And I would say that's a hypothetical"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2243.96,"endTime":2247.98,"body":"audience, right? Yeah. In that case, they're not"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2247.98,"endTime":2253.71,"body":"actually presenting to a roomful of 12 year old boys,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2247.98,"endTime":2253.71,"body":"but just having that hypothetical audience can shift"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2254.37,"endTime":2258.15,"body":"the, the, the students positionality within the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2254.37,"endTime":2258.15,"body":"triangle."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2258.42,"endTime":2262.35,"body":"And I could see some people saying,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2258.42,"endTime":2262.35,"body":"well, actually that's less authentic. I get that."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2262.35,"endTime":2268.62,"body":"But the fact of the matter is, as all audiences are"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2262.35,"endTime":2268.62,"body":"constructed, when I'm writing a book to a room, you"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2268.62,"endTime":2276.24,"body":"know, to academics, I'm considering who academics"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2268.62,"endTime":2276.24,"body":"are and what they want and what they care about. And"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2276.24,"endTime":2280.41,"body":"when the student is writing to a professor they're,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2276.24,"endTime":2280.41,"body":"they've got assumptions about who that professor is."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2280.41,"endTime":2284.52,"body":"It isn't accurate. It might be accurate. It might"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2280.41,"endTime":2284.52,"body":"not be. It might be in some ways and not in other"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2284.52,"endTime":2285.93,"body":"ways. So yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2286.71,"endTime":2288.24,"body":"But it's still a little hypothetical."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2289.23,"endTime":2294.75,"body":"It's it is a little hypothetical."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2289.23,"endTime":2294.75,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so a there's a paradox to this"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2294.75,"endTime":2301.38,"body":"that that what's more authentic, t actual audience"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2294.75,"endTime":2301.38,"body":"or the fake audience, but all audiences are"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2301.38,"endTime":2303.75,"body":"constructed. Always Yeah, Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2304.02,"endTime":2308.52,"body":"Well, let me see if I can tie all this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2304.02,"endTime":2308.52,"body":"together a little bit, because you, in talking about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2308.58,"endTime":2316.41,"body":"the value, the liberal arts, you talked about"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2308.58,"endTime":2316.41,"body":"helping students build their own agency in their"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2316.41,"endTime":2316.92,"body":"lives."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2316.95,"endTime":2317.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2318.1,"endTime":2323.11,"body":"And so do you see this kind of shift in"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2318.1,"endTime":2323.11,"body":"audience as a way to help students do that?"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2323.44,"endTime":2332.59,"body":"Yes. Yes. The term I use, and it's"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2323.44,"endTime":2332.59,"body":"not an unproblematic term, is is authority. I'm not"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2332.59,"endTime":2336.4,"body":"talking about authoritarianism and I'm not talking"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2332.59,"endTime":2336.4,"body":"about confidence. I'm talking about a sense of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2336.73,"endTime":2342.64,"body":"knowing the content that I'm talking about. I have"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2336.73,"endTime":2342.64,"body":"authority over the content, but also authority in"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2342.64,"endTime":2350.5299999999997,"body":"terms of authorship, that I'm saying something that"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2342.64,"endTime":2350.5299999999997,"body":"hasn't been said before, that I have a right to add"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2350.74,"endTime":2357.65,"body":"to the conversation. You know, there's a there's a"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2350.74,"endTime":2357.65,"body":"long I mean, Marcia Baxter Magolda does a lot with"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2357.65,"endTime":2363.11,"body":"developmental theory. She talks about self"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2357.65,"endTime":2363.11,"body":"authorship, right? Students writing their own script"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2363.11,"endTime":2369.56,"body":"of who they are as opposed to it being written by"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2363.11,"endTime":2369.56,"body":"the world around them. And the implication is so"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2369.56,"endTime":2374.84,"body":"that then they can go into the world in meaningful,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2369.56,"endTime":2374.84,"body":"powerful ways. I just take that implication a step"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2374.84,"endTime":2382.2799999999997,"body":"further. And she and that term authorship is really"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2374.84,"endTime":2382.2799999999997,"body":"the idea of author, of creating, of making of saying"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2382.2799999999997,"endTime":2387.86,"body":"more. Yeah. So being in a position where you're"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2382.2799999999997,"endTime":2387.86,"body":"actually helping somebody or explaining something to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2387.86,"endTime":2395.33,"body":"them that they need to know builds a student's sense"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2387.86,"endTime":2395.33,"body":"of of who they are and what they're capable of."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2396.0499999999997,"endTime":2402.71,"body":"Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2396.0499999999997,"endTime":2402.71,"body":"what I saw when I started having my students write"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2402.7,"endTime":2409.46,"body":"for a public blog or put together podcast episodes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2402.7,"endTime":2409.46,"body":"Right. Is that is that they weren't in this"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2409.46,"endTime":2415.43,"body":"artificially constructed rhetorical context, right?"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2409.46,"endTime":2415.43,"body":"Where they have been assigned a role and they have"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2415.43,"endTime":2422.5699999999997,"body":"very little power in that in that context to kind of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2415.43,"endTime":2422.5699999999997,"body":"change things. They're put in the position of saying,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2422.5699999999997,"endTime":2427.33,"body":"Oh, no, I'm I'm the one talking about this topic and"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2422.5699999999997,"endTime":2427.33,"body":"I'm I'm going to figure out kind of what's important"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2427.34,"endTime":2427.9,"body":"to say about it."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2428.09,"endTime":2433.46,"body":"Ye. Yeah. And it hopefully ceases to"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2428.09,"endTime":2433.46,"body":"be transactional. Then it ceases to be just about"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2433.46,"endTime":2438.92,"body":"the grade. And sometimes it will be right. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2433.46,"endTime":2438.92,"body":"students are doing a lot of work for us for a lot of"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2438.92,"endTime":2444.83,"body":"different classes, so there's going to be varying"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2438.92,"endTime":2444.83,"body":"levels of investment, but let's at least try to make"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2444.83,"endTime":2448.8199999999997,"body":"it right, you know, so yeah."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2449.36,"endTime":2453.0499999999997,"body":"Well, Paul, this has been delightful."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2449.36,"endTime":2453.0499999999997,"body":"Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2453.0499999999997,"endTime":2459.5299999999997,"body":"me. And we've covered a lot of a lot of ground today,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2453.0499999999997,"endTime":2459.5299999999997,"body":"but and I know there's more in your book for folks"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2459.5299999999997,"endTime":2465.0499999999997,"body":"who are who are exploring their general education"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2459.5299999999997,"endTime":2465.0499999999997,"body":"curriculum revision. That's always happening"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2465.0499999999997,"endTime":2465.44,"body":"somewhere."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2465.68,"endTime":2466.94,"body":"Yeah. Oh, Lord, yes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2467.09,"endTime":2470.69,"body":"I know your book will be a great aid to"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2467.09,"endTime":2470.69,"body":"a lot of folks. So again, thank you, Paul. This has"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2470.69,"endTime":2471.0499999999997,"body":"been delightful."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2471.0499999999997,"endTime":2474.29,"body":"Like, Well, thank you. I love to some"},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2471.0499999999997,"endTime":2474.29,"body":"wonderful questions and I really appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Paul Hanstedt","startTime":2474.56,"endTime":2474.98,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2477.74,"endTime":2483.35,"body":"Oh, that was Paul Hanstedt, vice"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2477.74,"endTime":2483.35,"body":"chancellor for academic affairs and innovation at"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2483.35,"endTime":2489.5,"body":"the University of Minnesota, Rochester. As mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2483.35,"endTime":2489.5,"body":"Paul is the author of two fantastic books, General"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2489.5,"endTime":2494.5699999999997,"body":"Education Essentials The Guide for College Faculty,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2489.5,"endTime":2494.5699999999997,"body":"now in its second edition and creating Wicked"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2494.5699999999997,"endTime":2500.5099999999998,"body":"Students Designing Courses for a Complex World. I"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2494.5699999999997,"endTime":2500.5099999999998,"body":"took so many notes when reading his Wicked Students"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2500.5099999999998,"endTime":2505.34,"body":"book. It's it's really, really good. If you have"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2500.5099999999998,"endTime":2505.34,"body":"thoughts on Paul's comments in this episode, I would"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2505.34,"endTime":2509.69,"body":"love to hear them.There's  a link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2505.34,"endTime":2509.69,"body":"You can click to send me a text message with your"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2509.69,"endTime":2513.17,"body":"thoughts or you can email me at derek@derekbruff."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2509.69,"endTime":2513.17,"body":"org"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2515.23,"endTime":2521.11,"body":"Intentional Teaching is sponsored by UPCEA, the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2515.23,"endTime":2521.11,"body":"Online and Professional Education Association. And"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2521.11,"endTime":2525.52,"body":"the show notes. You'll find a link to the ACA"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2521.11,"endTime":2525.52,"body":"website where you can find out about their research,"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2525.7,"endTime":2530.59,"body":"networking opportunities and professional"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2525.7,"endTime":2530.59,"body":"development offerings. This episode of Intentional"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2530.59,"endTime":2536.02,"body":"Teaching was produced and edited by me, Derek Bruff."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2530.59,"endTime":2536.02,"body":"See the show notes for links to my website, the"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2536.02,"endTime":2540.85,"body":"intentional teaching newsletter and my Patreon where"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2536.02,"endTime":2540.85,"body":"you can help support the show for just a few bucks a"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2540.85,"endTime":2546.1,"body":"month. If you found this or any episode of"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2540.85,"endTime":2546.1,"body":"intentional teaching useful, would you consider"},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2546.1,"endTime":2549.61,"body":"sharing it with a colleague? That would mean a lot."},{"speaker":"Derek Bruff","startTime":2546.1,"endTime":2549.61,"body":"As always, thanks for listening."}]}