Health & Safety in Australia - An Innovative Approach - Susan Fleming

In this episode, Susan shares how Australia is reshaping the way organizations think about safety—from the introduction of psychosocial safety laws, to the use of immersive theatre that brings real‑world scenarios to life for workers. She discusses the shift toward experience‑based learning, the growing emphasis on mental health and inclusion, and how innovative approaches are helping industries address bullying, harassment, and cultural change.  Susan also highlights emerging trends across mining, healthcare, education, and youth safety, offering valuable insights for anyone working to strengthen safety culture in Canada.

Transcript

PerleyBrewer   0:17
Welcome to today's podcast. My name is Pearl de Brewer and I will be your host. Today's podcast guest is very special in that our guest, Susan Fleming is from Down Under, as they say, from Australia. Welcome, Susan.

Susan Fleming   0:31
Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. This is great.

PerleyBrewer   0:35
Well, over the years, Canadians have shown quite an interest in learning more about Australia. Seems to be a connection there, and we've wanted to do a podcast with someone from Australia that could give us folks living in Canada a sense of what health and safety is like in your country.
So we were looking for some time for someone that could make that connection and actually a good friend of ours, Candace Carnahan, who has spent a fair bit of time actually in Australia and speaks very well of of you and and the work that you're doing in Australia. She was able to put us in touch with you so.
Perhaps we could start our podcast with you giving our listeners a sense of who is Susan Fleming and how did you connect originally with Candace?

Susan Fleming   1:21
That's a great story, actually. And our most recent connection ended up with a baseball game. After a conference, I will let you know we're on opposing teams, but it was good fun. We my work in safety is very innovative in that.
That we use theatre, we use plays to teach safety. So the company's called Acting, Consulting and Training. I started it 12 years ago after seeing this incredible work in London and it works especially well for major hazard industries.
Because you're actually witnessing being part of a case study of an incident really immersively without actually being in it. So you learn the lessons, experience the feelings, but you're actually not at risk.
So that was the business I started 12 years ago and apart from a horrible couple of years in COVID, it has actually resonated very much with Australian audiences and internationally when we have presented at international conferences as well.
I met, I met Candace at one of those, uh, through different friends and David Scotti, who's, um, part of a International Health Alliance in Italy, actually. And so we're all connected. And I just really loved the work that Candice does, and I loved her personal perspective.
And the way she presents is so positive and such a memorable occasion for people that I've recommended her to a couple of clients in Australia. So we ended up working together again last year, which was great.

PerleyBrewer   3:06
So what age do you present your plays to?

Susan Fleming   3:10
What age did you ask?

PerleyBrewer   3:13
What age? What age? Yes.

Susan Fleming   3:16
So the plays are presented to the workplace. So a client will call me and say, so I'll tell you how we started. Shell called me and the head of health and safety at Shell called me and said we've got a big new platform in getting started. We need to really immerse.

PerleyBrewer   3:20
OK.

Susan Fleming   3:36
People in process safety. I need to get them to take it seriously. What do I do? And I said you need to give them an immersive experience. It's industrial theatre and there is a play called Deepwater Horizon based on the Deepwater Horizon incident in the Gulf of Mexico.
That will be exactly what you need. So Shell provided 400 employees to a theatre. I bought the play and the actors, and in between the three acts of the play, I facilitate the lessons learned and allow people to reflect, to discuss, to.
Come forward with some of their challenges as a result of what they've seen.

PerleyBrewer   4:19
Well, that sounds interesting. That's something I don't think anyone in Canada has tried, and that would certainly be interesting.

Susan Fleming   4:25
No, interestingly, yeah. Well, the the great thing is that because of the caliber of the scripts and the actors, it doesn't have that kind of naff feeling. You know, if you see bad theatre, you're gonna go, oh, that's a bit, you know, cringy.
We've really focused on the quality of the plays and the quality of the actors. So we have some of the top actors in Australia actually take part in the work. Yeah, it's great. It's fantastic.

PerleyBrewer   4:52
Excellent.
So let's talk about health and safety in Australia. If I were to visit Australia and and and and be curious as to how you are structured or set up from a regulatory point of view or literature point of view, how is health and safety organised in Australia? Is there an organisation that looks after it, for example?
Hope.

Susan Fleming   5:17
So the way that it's set up is that the each state has a Commissioner of safety and each state has a commissioning body usually called Worksafe. So if you can imagine we have WA, we have NSW, we have SA, we have Northern Territory, we have Victoria.

PerleyBrewer   5:25
OK.
OK.

Susan Fleming   5:37
And I mention this because it's quite important about a recent development and a big change in safety focus. Each state has their safety remit. Each state obviously has different issues that they want to particularly address. So last year, for example, whilst there's a very.
Very big focus on major hazard industry because you must remember Australia has a lot of resources. So we have a lot of mining, we have a lot of oil and gas, we have a lot of shipping. So these are mining, they have major hazard industries as well. So there's quite a big focus on process safety.

PerleyBrewer   6:04
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   6:14
But there's also things like silica in some states in the last 12 months has been a big focus working with silica. Then in probably two or three years ago, psychosocial safety became a new focus for the national body of safety.
For everybody involved in safety. And the reason I mentioned that the different states is to get all the states to change their legislation obviously takes a really long time to get them all to do it. But as of the end of last year, we hit harmonization, which means all states now.

PerleyBrewer   6:36
OK.

Susan Fleming   6:54
Now have a set of laws in place to prosecute for psychosocial safety, and psychosocial safety in the workplace essentially means people being safe to go to work mentally as well as physically.
So you are not at the risk of bullying or sexual harassment or unfair treatment, excessive workload compared to other people in the team.
Those unfairness kind of things are what psychosocial safety is all about addressing, so that everybody is safe and respected at the workplace. And there's a number of reasons for this. We had some not so great Royal Commission reports that showed that sexual harassment and bullying, particularly in a number of.
Industries, mining being one of them, was very bad and there needed to be a big adjustment made. An old culture um wasn't fitting the new way of life today. And if we want to encourage, for example, more young people and more women into all the industries, then we've got to make it a safe place.
For everybody in a psychological sense as well as physical. So that's been a big change in the last year.

PerleyBrewer   8:13
So from a point of view of harmonization, psychosocial is harmonized. What about your other legislation? Is is it harmonized across the different regions, or does each one still have its own set?

Susan Fleming   8:23
Looks.
Each each state has its own set. So there's there's not. I mean, I would say that there's there's a lot of similarities. So I would have the same conversations I'm having in West Australia. I would have the same conversations in Queensland and in NSW with the regulators.

PerleyBrewer   8:28
Mhm.
Now.

Susan Fleming   8:42
But there'll be different focus and there's also, I was just thinking of the other one that was that came up recently was under enforceable undertakings. Do you know what that is?

PerleyBrewer   8:55
Not, not 100%. It's plain.

Susan Fleming   8:58
OK, so enforceable undertaking is where you choose, instead of being prosecuted, to take an undertaking which may involve training. It may involve changes at the workplace in physical changes in the workplace. So you're saying don't.
Don't fine me, Mr. Commissioner, let me do an undertaking instead. Let me let me come up with, you know, probably something that financially is going to be around the same. But instead of prosecuting me and fining me, let me do this enforceable undertaking instead so I don't have the prosecution.

PerleyBrewer   9:35
OK.

Susan Fleming   9:37
So that's called enforceable undertaking and that is taken off in two or three states, but it's not harmonised. So not all states have the same commitment to it. Victoria, for example, which is the state South of New South Wales, so Melbourne some people will know as opposed to.

PerleyBrewer   9:41
OK.
OK.

Susan Fleming   9:57
To Sydney, that state has been very innovative in their enforceable undertakings.
Case.

PerleyBrewer   10:04
Now.
When it comes to enforcing legislation, how is that done in Australia? Like here in Canada, we have what they call health and safety officers to visit workplaces that look for compliance with legislation. If you're not in compliance, they have certain tools they can use to to get that compliance. How is that done in Australia?

Susan Fleming   10:09
Yeah.

PerleyBrewer   10:26
Yeah.

Susan Fleming   10:26
Exactly the same. So we have workplace inspectors that go. Now their mantra is that they are there for guidance rather than for prosecution, but they will prosecute. When there is a breach of compliance, they will prosecute and particularly.

PerleyBrewer   10:29
OK.
Mhm.
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   10:46
When there's harm or injury or death, there's no doubt.

PerleyBrewer   10:50
Now when they would prosecute, and this is a pretty wide open question to you, do you have any sense of what kind of issues would they prosecute on? What would sort of some of the hot issues be, so to speak, that you might be reading more about that prosecutions have taken place on?

Susan Fleming   11:08
I would say that mostly the prosecutions are physical harm in the workplace and and and and and and that's without a doubt because that's what we're obviously trying to do is a physically safe workplace.

PerleyBrewer   11:15
OK.

Susan Fleming   11:24
It's just that that new legislation, the psychosocial safety legislation, everyone's kind of waiting. There will be a prosecution in the next 12 months. So there's been one or two come very close. They're in the courts at the moment.
And one of them is actually a university that's being prosecuted for not having a psychosocial, psychosocially safe workplace for its people. And that that that court case is underway now, but we will see.
More sexual harassment and bullying complaints that will get to the top and get to be prosecuted in the next 12 months, but mostly at the moment I would say it's physical.

PerleyBrewer   12:04
Now do you have a?
Now, did you have any sense of, you know, are we what kind of dollar amounts we would be talking about or or would they be looking more for organizations to adopt A psychosocial program? What what sort of approach are they going to use?

Susan Fleming   12:20
Look, I think they're going to go in hard, to be honest. Um, I think if there is going to get to be a prosecution, they're going to make it want, you know, it's going to not have some teeth.

PerleyBrewer   12:27
OK.

Susan Fleming   12:35
So in terms of dollar amounts, I would be hard to hazard a guess, but I would say if it's, um, you know, something serious, it's going to be, um, in the $250,000 plus market. But that's not an official Um.

PerleyBrewer   12:50
Wow.

Susan Fleming   12:53
You know, piece of advice because I'm honestly not in the position to say that, but I would think that they will make it serious.

PerleyBrewer   12:58
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Now for fines and a normal basis, day-to-day basis for non-compliance with conditions of work and so on, what kind of fine levels do you see in Australia?

Susan Fleming   13:16
Look, fine levels are an interesting one. As I said, because the focus is mostly on when there's a prosecution, it's it's it's usually because there's been physical harm. Then it's a lot because, you know, you're talking about a person's life here. So you're starting upwards of 100 and $150,000 for an injury.

PerleyBrewer   13:27
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   13:35
And then that can go to a lot more, obviously, if it's a fatality.

PerleyBrewer   13:41
Do you have any sense of what kind of money and fatality would draw from a point of view of a prosecution?

Susan Fleming   13:47
Look, it's different in others in every state as well. So I would, I would, I would just say that that one would be a case by case basis.

PerleyBrewer   13:50
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
OK, from a point of view of education, how was education conducted in Australia as far as trying to keep workers safe? Is it? Is it done by the agencies or is it private sector? How? How is it set up?

Susan Fleming   14:10
It's a combination of both and the the agencies promote education as a preventative measure and there is really there's an the Australian Institute of Health and Safety is a particular institute that is.
Whole set of set of protocols for people who are working as safety professionals in the industry. So that has really grown in its in its importance in the safety community in the last few years. There's also a body, a national body called Safe Work Australia and they.
all kinds of training and training packages that you can go online. I think anyone can go online and and see their resources that are available for companies to use in-house. Then you've got a whole number of private companies that set up and they offer all kinds
kinds of different training and that might be compliance training, but there's also training which is much more focused on the human centered training, which is affecting culture as well as compliance. And that's where my kind of work comes in.
So we're not looking at just compliance, we're looking at people having a culture, a good culture of safety, so that they will speak up, so that they will do the right thing even when people aren't looking.

PerleyBrewer   15:40
So your particular activity, which as I mentioned, certainly not done here in Canada, what other kinds of health and safety prevention activities would you see if you looked across Australia? What kinds of of things are in place?

Susan Fleming   15:56
So you'll have the spectrum from death by PowerPoint, where literally people get a topic, they get the information on the topic and they rock up to a work site, they fire up the PowerPoint presentation and then the poor workplace people have to sit there and listen and you know they get.

PerleyBrewer   16:02
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   16:16
Told. So that's one end. Fortunately, that's starting to fade a little because they realize that people don't learn like that. So now that's moving into different kinds of workplace training. And I guess where we are on the other end of the spectrum is the immersive training. Now the other part.
That I should mention is that we're like everybody else, there's the digital application. So suddenly everyone wants to use AI, someone wants to use virtual reality so that people can be trained on things that are potentially dangerous.
Using a camera with a, you know, the big goggles and you've got the experiential that you're going on to. That's virtual reality. Then there's augmented reality. So those options are all available. I sometimes feel sorry for the health and safety team who have a pretty broad.

PerleyBrewer   16:56
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   17:11
Offering to choose from now, but they've only got a certain amount of time that they can take their employees, take people from the workplace because operational is king. If you've got a small business, operational is king. If you've got a really large business, operation is king because you're.
Was challenged for resources as well. So that's that's an issue that I think um I feel for them and and it's actually been really good that they're they're being supported by the Australian Institute of Health and Safety to go through in getting more experience and expertise at looking at the broad.
Spectrum of safety and going, what does our organisation need? And I think that professionalism that's been built for those people is very helpful to the safety across Australia.

PerleyBrewer   18:03
So in the area of education and training, what what methodology do you think would be the sort of the hot topic of the day, so to speak, the one that people are seem to be moving to words or or seem to feel that maybe rather than the PowerPoint?
Is effective.
Any particular sort of methodology?

Susan Fleming   18:23
I gotta say I'm gonna put our hand up here. Yeah, I've got to put our hand up here because we're we've just got the data recently about the proof in the pudding. So we were commissioned by Worksafe WA for a production two years ago that we took.

PerleyBrewer   18:26
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   18:43
Took on tour throughout WA and the feedback from that was that 95% of the people surveyed who'd seen it and experienced it felt that it was relevant to their workplace.
And this is a very high number. So based on that and based on the much more, you know, different areas, I won't go into all of them, but that all the feedback was in the 90s and so the Worksafe commissioned us again this year.
To do another one and also tour it around WA. So it's hitting a note. I think potentially the audience has got something to do with it because we are this one is focusing on the mining industry and psychosocial safety.
And it's possibly where most change is required out of many industries. And so it was just the sweet spot that needed something really engaging because there had been a backlash at the beginning.
So when psychosocial safety was introduced, people went, Oh no, what's this and what's that word mean? And this is a bit hard. And don't we just have to focus on getting people home safe at night? You know that they didn't have a broken leg or didn't have a broken finger in the kitchen?
And it's like, well, no, you director, Mr. Director on the board, you, Mr. Duty of care supervisor, you have the responsibility to make sure that your people are psychologically safe. Now it's the law.
So we had to really get there. We did two plays. One was about what good looks like. That was the first one. So that really was got people engaged in the modality of industrial theatre. And they were like, whoa, we're going to a play. And then when they'd been, they were like, wow, that was incredible.
I really felt it. I understood. It was clear. The exercises we did in between the play made sense to me. They're relevant to me and the dial shifted. I learnt something. But this year the Worksafe Commission said to us, go harder.
Show us what bullying in the workplace and sexual harassment in the workplace looks like when it goes wrong. So that was a bit tough, but we did it. We did a great play called Hindsight and it's a Worksafe inspector goes into a site just because they think there's been a win an.

PerleyBrewer   20:58
Mm.

Susan Fleming   21:16
Accident on a road, but as they start digging, they find out that that young person's life is at risk because of workplace bullying and harassment and that comes through and then eventually we turn it around so the person sees the light and understands the impact and makes.
Changes. So people leave hopeful and they leave with some new tools to take back to their workplace. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Australia has been really advanced in taking on something so innovative. Can you imagine some of the guys that I talk to and say?
Oh, by the way, we are doing a play. You know, they'd be like, really? But once they've experienced it and seen the impact on their workplace, they understand the impact. You know what? It's like storytelling. We've always told stories.
It's like what Candice does. She tells a story and that holds people. So I think even though we've come right through the spectrum of we've embraced technology, we've embraced augmented reality, virtual reality, online learning, we've embraced.
All these things. Humans want human. Human wants human contact. We want other people to tell us stories. We don't want a robot to tell us stories. We don't want to be displaced. We do enough time on screens.
People want experiential and they want to feel something. And I think that's where, you know, the storytelling, the the the theatre, these are experiences shared that affect people. And when you are affected, you don't.
Forget that. That's how it's impacting. I think that's, yeah, that's that's really great to see Australia embracing that innovation.

PerleyBrewer   23:16
The 15 to 24 age group, what kinds of? Obviously your activity would be extremely suited to it. What other kinds of activities are used in Australia to reach the 15 to 24 youth group, young worker?

Susan Fleming   23:19
Yes.
Yes.
It's that's a really good question. So I can actually speak to that with a little different authority. I'm the chair of the Constable Care Foundation, which is a charity for the prevention of harm to young people.
And we deal with Rd. safety with puppets from 5 year olds right through to prevention of harm through addressing drugs and alcohol. Rd. controlling behaviours.
Bullying right through to the 25 year old. So that charity is West Australian based, but we've now just started a partnership with Queensland and that is one strong trajectory of where people are looking at, not just looking at.
Textbook things for children and young people for safety prevention of harm. They need to have at an early age start to have critical thinking skills to make safer decisions to prevent themselves from getting into harm's way.
So that is something that's also using a lot of theatre. We also use film and that's a another big innovation. But when I say that's an innovation, that organisation is 32 years old this year. So it's been evolving and and very powerful.
So in schools we and that I should add, I should add that charity is sponsored partially by government and police in WA and also philanthropy so that it is free to all school children.
In Western Australia. So any school can ring up and book a program, one of the programs. So that's one of the big things that's happening in safety for young people, the 15 to 24 year old. We also do things like we have a program where we take them on tour around cities.
when they're going to start a university year. So they learn what safe behaviours are required for young people in cities after dark. So that's one area of safety. With safety in the workplace, I would say the main focus is again on bullying and harassment.
And respect for the individual and safety at work.
Does that answer your question? Is there something else I can add to that?

PerleyBrewer   26:04
OK.
Yeah, it does. You mentioned movies or film. I guess film is one approach you use. Can you tell me more about that?

Susan Fleming   26:11
Yeah.
That's really interesting because, and this is particularly for young people, I use it more as a post-production tool in our work. So we'll film short segments of the play and then create some questions so that people can use it as a safety.
Moment or a pre start and I can send you some of those to share with your listeners if you like and to have a look at what those safety moments so you can use it for a toolbox talk or you can use it for a pre start and that's that's from you know from my business point of view.

PerleyBrewer   26:40
Mhm.
OK.

Susan Fleming   26:51
From the charity point of view for young people, they make their own story into a film. So they address a topic and this is, you know, obviously structured and run by their professionals from Constable Care, and they make their own film from a safety incident that's bothering.
Them. So maybe at the school there's a bullying that started, or maybe it's online bullying. So the students create the ideas that they want to bring out. The professionals, our facilitators, workshop them.
And then they create a film that dramatises that story and it's a very interactive way of learning and therefore incredibly powerful for young people.

PerleyBrewer   27:32
OK.
Now here in Canada, we have different safety associations for different industries. For example, there's a Construction Safety Association, Healthcare Safety Association. Do you have a similar type of setup in Australia?

Susan Fleming   27:54
Exactly the same. So we have and we have different regulators. So we have an oil and gas regulator called Noxima. We have the mining, well, the mining and other industries mostly come under Worksafe.

PerleyBrewer   28:04
OK.

Susan Fleming   28:09
And the all the different associations have their own safety association and and they, you know, they do. So the construction industry, they have their own safety associations.
There's women, there's female safety associations and a growing one is associations that are charities that are focusing on mental health in the workplace. So we have probably four or five of those now.
That are just particularly focused on increasing the well-being, you know, through mental health training and intervention and also prevention of suicide. And this is growing, sadly.
This is a very big area of concern in safety culture in people in in Australia.

PerleyBrewer   28:59
OK.
So what kind of groups would be involved in those?

Susan Fleming   29:11
So the one that comes to mind, the ones that I deal with. So just one point that your listeners might find interesting is that when we design a play, we either just do it with the client or in some cases, as in the ones I was talking about of late the last two years.
We've worked in a Co design process and we get input from different organizations to create the themes and the content that we then turn into the script. So we've been working with Lifeline WA and Lifeline WA is a.
24/7 telephone line service for assistance for anyone in need. They also create workplace learning packages to look for signs of people in distress and how to deal with it.

PerleyBrewer   29:57
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   30:07
We work with Mates in Mining. Mates in Mining is an organization that came from Mates in Construction, and Mates in Construction was set up specifically to address men finding it difficult to talk about.
And address signs of suicidal potential.
So those organisations, very strong, growing and their whole remit is to get blokes to talk. And this, you know, I mean, it may be a little towards Australian culture that men tend to bottle things up and not really talk about it, especially if it's problems.

PerleyBrewer   30:36
Hmm.

Susan Fleming   30:47
And this is the way that is a whole movement towards getting men to talk. And um, so they do a lot of workshops about encouraging when's a good time, how to open the conversation. And those are very face to face. They've been very supportive of our work. They send people along because.
We do treat themes of suicide in our play, especially the most recent one. So it's. So those kind of organisations are very important and they provide a lot of support across the different organisations. So then there's.
So there's construction, there's the the, the, the electrical trades. We have people who are supporting, they have organisations in the electrical trades. So I think each of the industries, there's agriculture and fishing organisations much smaller in in Australia.
Definitely taken into consideration.

PerleyBrewer   31:50
You have, I'm sure, like we have here in Canada, a lot of health and safety conferences. What would be some of the topics that would be sort of the hot topics of the day on your agenda at some of these conferences?

Susan Fleming   32:05
Well, I thought about that because, you know, kind of competition for labour I know is more applicable for Western Canada. But in Australia, competition for labour is a really big thing. So getting your workplace culture right so that when people come, they.

PerleyBrewer   32:07
OK.
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   32:25
They stay is a big issue. So retention of staff is is a big one. And that's where I think the psychosocial safety comes into it in another level because you know, psychosocial safety is creating a workplace that people want to work in.
And want to stay in. And so that's an issue. I would say that people will be addressing immigration and you know, the need for it to bolster our workplace and how do we meet that challenge in the workplace and.
Meet that well to support people and support the integration, I think.
Financing, you know we're we're challenged with a with a government that that we find in small industries have a lot of regulations. So they're being challenged by that. So I think small and large there's a there's a question discussion right now.
About over regulation or over onerous on on organisations, I think that's one topic that's coming through and other than that.
The usual things about human factors would be important and the challenges are, I have to say, critical risk factors. Critical risk factors is in every conference, as it should be, because they change.
So I think that's a really important one.

PerleyBrewer   34:06
Now you mentioned soft tissue injuries. How big an issue is soft tissue injuries in Australia? I know it's it's big here in Canada. It's really big.

Susan Fleming   34:12
It's big.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When, when you when you say big in CA in in Canada, where's the most, um, like which are the main areas where this is experienced? I know you have forestry, construction, manufacturing, agriculture, fishing, are they the kind of ones?

PerleyBrewer   34:31
No, actually it's in healthcare. Healthcare is the biggest. It's really common, very, very common in hospital environments, in the care environments for seniors, homes, those kind of facilities.

Susan Fleming   34:34
Uh.
Right, OK.

PerleyBrewer   34:47
Really in the last decade it's it's it's eating up probably if you look at and talk to workers compensation groups here in our our province and actually across Canada, it's eating up about 40% of the budget when they look at where the injuries are, where the injuries are coming from.

Susan Fleming   35:03
Wow.
OK.

PerleyBrewer   35:07
They will tell you, almost without exception, 40 to 45% of the money they're paying out to injured workers. When you tally everything together, it's 40 to 45% of soft tissue injuries and the the worst offenders, so to speak, it's healthcare lifting patients.

Susan Fleming   35:21
K.

PerleyBrewer   35:25
There is some for, there's some for manual material handling, but it's not near as big an issue. It's it's mostly soft tissue in healthcare.

Susan Fleming   35:26
Right, right. Yeah.
That is really interesting. As the industry grows here and it's suddenly exploded because we've got the boomer population going into aged care needs and more of a focus on keeping people at home. So health care, you know, being in the house, in the home.

PerleyBrewer   35:39
Yeah.

Susan Fleming   35:57
As well as in the hospital, this is a really important issue and I think I would be, I don't think ours is as high as that, but I'm going to check now that you've said it and I was asked to speak and present a small play on musculoskeletia.

PerleyBrewer   36:01
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   36:16
injury last year at a conference. And so that was interesting that it was musculoskeletal and not soft tissue. So that's really interesting. It's something I will investigate here. I actually don't know the answer to that question, how high that percentage is, but I will find out for you, Pearly.

PerleyBrewer   36:17
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And when when they talk about soft tissue, MSI's, back injuries, those are the areas that keep getting brought up over and over. Now to go with that, we really have no ergonomic regulations. Now would you have ergonomic regulations in Australia?

Susan Fleming   36:40
Yep.

PerleyBrewer   36:50
To deal with, say, lifting and soft tissue related, because here in Canada we don't. Yeah, here in Canada we don't.

Susan Fleming   36:55
Yes, I know we do.
OK, that's interesting. I I'm not sure to what level because I haven't done a lot of work in in in the area, but ergonomic regulations I know do exist because my father happens to be nearly 90 and recently he was in hospital and.
It was so regulated about who could touch him, who could lift him, how the lift was done, had to have two people, had to have. We had to be out of the room. You know, it was really step by step by step. Now that was a government hospital, so I would say that's regulated.

PerleyBrewer   37:26
Mhm.
Yeah, well, in in Canada, if you look at the legislation group, there's no ergonomic legislation. What has been adopted by the private industry, the hospital associations and so on, they have adopted their own ergonomic practices within the hospital within.
Care home, but as such there's there's really no government regulation that says, you know, it needs to be either two person lift, mechanical lift, whatever. So I was just curious as to.

Susan Fleming   38:02
Yeah, yeah. And well, that's what.

PerleyBrewer   38:06
Where where yours was at.

Susan Fleming   38:06
Yeah. So that's what it could. So that's what it could be where in that example I just mentioned that could have been the hospital practice, not necessarily a government regulation. I'll check into that. That's interesting, very interesting.

PerleyBrewer   38:13
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Oh.

Susan Fleming   38:22
Curly, can we just pause for Bill? Can we just pause for one minute? I've just noticed that my battery is really low on my phone. I'm just going to plug it in. Can I have a break for one second? Thank you.

PerleyBrewer   38:22
Now here here in Canada.
Sure can.
Sure, sure can.

Susan Fleming   38:40
I know.
I'll walk you in over here.
OK, we're all good.

PerleyBrewer   39:08
Now here in Canada, we have what's called a workers compensation system, which if someone is injured on the job, they they automatically go on workers compensation, which covers their medical bills, loss of earnings and so on. That's in contrast to the US.

Susan Fleming   39:13
Yes.
Yes.

PerleyBrewer   39:25
In the United States, everything is through lawsuits. What's your system like in Australia as far as what happens when a worker does get injured on the job?

Susan Fleming   39:36
We are very similar to Canada. We have a robust workers compensation system, which means that people are looked after and yeah, it's it's very well done.

PerleyBrewer   39:51
OK, um.
What's the real current hot health and safety issues right now in Australia? You mentioned psychosocial, obviously that's a big one. Any other areas or topics that are that are sort of get a lot of attention right now?

Susan Fleming   40:02
Yep.

PerleyBrewer   40:10
OK.
I.

Susan Fleming   40:11
Silica and working with stone that that became something very big that was raised um in the last 12 months that that's caused a lot of consternation because it actually puts some people out of business um and also.

PerleyBrewer   40:25
OK.

Susan Fleming   40:27
The new regulations, you know, really made a big difference to companies, but I guess they uncovered some research that made it imperative that changes happened straight away. So that was that was needed. So that that was a big issue.
I mentioned the enforceable undertaking, so trying to go for an alternative to a prosecution and then I would say that.
It sounds funny, but slips, trips and falls are still really front of front of mind that they cause so much havoc. They are a huge percentage of the workers compensation claims.

PerleyBrewer   41:07
Mhm.
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   41:14
And this is still an area that, you know, it's just basic safety that we have to really get right in every organization and we are challenged by complacency, by holiday periods, by new staff.
By all sorts of different climate things as well, that this basic thing of slips, trips and falls still needs to be addressed.

PerleyBrewer   41:42
From something you just mentioned, orientation for new workers, is that something that would be commonly done or is that a good sort of practice that's really common now in Australia? Has that sort of caught on?

Susan Fleming   41:47
Yes.
Well, interesting you mentioned that because it is legislation that you have to have effective inductions in your organization because if something gets wrong and it goes wrong and a worker gets hurt or harmed in any way.
Then they will go back. The inspectors will go back to examine your induction process. So it is imperative on most organizations to have an effective induction in place. Now the word effective.

PerleyBrewer   42:18
Mhm.
OK.

Susan Fleming   42:29
Can be a little bit subjective. Creating a video that people have to press buttons and and watch, but they can give their 12 year old it to watch while they make a cup of tea is not an effective induction.
So I would say that in the next 12 months there's going to be more focus on testing the efficacy of inductions.

PerleyBrewer   42:45
OK.
OK.

Susan Fleming   42:55
And people, how do you test the understanding of the person who's being inducted? That's a question I would put to any employer.

PerleyBrewer   43:06
Now.
A question regarding that here in Canada, and I know specifically here in New Brunswick, literacy is a big concern when you start talking about programs for testing. Is that a big issue in Australia as well?

Susan Fleming   43:17
Mhm.
Look, I'd say it is. I'd say it's not as openly recognised as it should be, but I have no doubt that part of the attraction of the interactive storytelling, whether it's storytelling from someone like Candace telling her history.
Or myself using a play, a case study being played out with actors. Why it's so successful is it also covers if you're not particularly literate.

PerleyBrewer   43:57
Yeah.

Susan Fleming   43:57
And in the reading and writing sense, so it's effective.

PerleyBrewer   44:00
For example, for example, here in New Brunswick, the rate of illiteracy is around 30% and that that presents a challenge I think to every workplace to ensure how do they ensure that, you know, orientation, onboarding training is effective.

Susan Fleming   44:09
Hmm.
Hmm.

PerleyBrewer   44:19
And it's challenging.

Susan Fleming   44:20
And look, this is and this is also important in workplaces. So you'll see in manufacturing sites for example, you'll see multiple languages in signage and so that's also being addressed in the induction process.

PerleyBrewer   44:31
No.

Susan Fleming   44:36
And it's it's just my concern is the bigger workforces, how many are slipping under the radar?

PerleyBrewer   44:48
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   44:49
That's, I would think, more of a risk.

PerleyBrewer   44:52
Now you mentioned earlier and you just mentioned again, and it's an issue we have here in our province as well, hiring a lot more foreign workers and of the challenges that that presents. How is Australia doing as far as trying to address some of those challenges?

Susan Fleming   45:03
Mhm.

PerleyBrewer   45:11
Whether it's just simple things like language, whatever.

Susan Fleming   45:15
Yes. Well, it's it's very high on the radar and it's it's about inclusion. So part of the psychosocial safety is regulations is making sure that you have an inclusive workplace.
So the language and the actions that people take has to be respectful of all backgrounds.
And so this is something that we're absolutely giving focus to and this is something that will, if done correctly, provide a safer fabric in a workplace. So it is definitely on the radar.
8.

PerleyBrewer   46:04
So my last question to you and it's it's one I've been very curious about. If you if you go to any health and safety conference here in in New Brunswick or across Canada, the last three to five years, the the word you hear over and over is psychological safety.
And it gets into bullying, harassment, the topics you've talked about, and everyone is talking about it. But even though it's been legislation in place here in our province around the topics of bullying, harassment and violence, organizations have been.
Generally reluctant to really buy into it to set up programs. It's they're they're still stuck in the old confined space lockout type topics they.

Susan Fleming   46:44
Mhm.
Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep.

PerleyBrewer   46:52
So how do you, how do you make that move? What? What lessons have you learned that could help us?

Susan Fleming   46:57
Well, the lessons, yeah. So the lessons I've learned, which I I think I lucked out to be honestly honest with you, when I started the process of addressing it in the workplace, and I'm telling you, this is a workplace that was not interested in hearing about it.
I chose a story that was a positive story. It was about what good looks like. And we chose a story, actually, that comes out of Utah, and it's the story of the biggest landslide in mining history.
In Mainfay Canyon, in Bingham Canyon and and that landslide, no one got hurt, no one. There was a whole lot of material loss, but the mine got up and running again within six weeks, savings 2000 jobs.
Now, how did that happen?
And our case study plays out an analysis that shows young women and old grumpy men working together.
It showed a no tolerance for inappropriate workplace column comments and and attitudes. It showed the power of people trusting each other in the workplace, therefore they could speak.
Up when they needed to, and it showed support for people potentially less experienced, but maybe with more recent training to speak up.
And by showing these different elements, I think we broke a barrier.
We engaged people to have a positive conversation about psychosocial safety. We let them see what good looks like.
And I guess the two-step hit of coming back a year later and showing the tough side of what where it goes wrong and potential loss of life. Thank goodness the person didn't lose their life, but a whole lot of serious themes.
I think the first one, the positive approach, broke the ground.
And it created a more receptive workplace to when they really needed to face looking in the mirror.

PerleyBrewer   49:31
O with that.

Susan Fleming   49:32
And we are hoping to take it to other states in Australia this year. I'm encouraging them to take the two step approach again.

PerleyBrewer   49:43
So with that, looking at the past, what does Susan Fleming see as far as the future of health and safety for the next, say, three years?
Any sort of areas, topics, trends that you see that you feel may grow or we'll see more increased emphasis on in the next three years?

Susan Fleming   50:05
It's really interesting that you talked about the soft tissue injury area in in the healthcare industry because I've just started work on a case study about a major fire in an old people's in an aged care centre.

PerleyBrewer   50:06
Putting on your.

Susan Fleming   50:25
That was maliciously lit.
And it's a really interesting case study of compliance being overlooked, of a culture that wasn't safe, of somebody that got in and was doing things that other people knew about, but no one was speaking up because some of them were immigrants, so they were felt that they were.
Risk. There's a whole lot of different themes that I think we need to look at potentially in the aged care and health care industry. And so as this area grows and you just mentioned there's some areas that are not regulated.
Um, do we need to look and see that we are supporting the staff, the workplace in these areas sufficiently? So that is somewhere that I am looking at. Having said that, I also do work in defence and work on the Um increasing.
Risks of mental health in the in the aviation and defence industries. So that's that's an area that's getting a lot of traction at the moment and an increase in peer support programs to support those people.
So just looking at those particular areas, I'd say I've also been asked to come back and look at oil and gas and see what kind of areas are at risk there and I know one of them is psychosocial safety.

PerleyBrewer   52:03
What about the topic of violence?
Is that a topic that keeps coming up or not?

Susan Fleming   52:09
Yeah, I tell you where it's coming up is in retail.
Retail and hospitality, it's terrible and we have seen an increase since COVID of filters, people's filters just not being where they should be in treating the risk with respect, hospitality and.

PerleyBrewer   52:13
OK.

Susan Fleming   52:33
And retail staff. So where do you see it?

PerleyBrewer   52:38
Education and healthcare.

Susan Fleming   52:40
OK, so education, we're seeing it as well, yeah.

PerleyBrewer   52:41
There's a yeah, we're we're seeing it in the school system. It's it's getting to be more and more of an issue as well. You go into the healthcare environments again whether it's a a hospital or nursing home where we're seeing an increase in the.

Susan Fleming   52:46
Yeah.
Yes.

PerleyBrewer   52:57
Aggressiveness of patience, of students, and so on.

Susan Fleming   53:00
Yes, yes, yes, yes. So this is increasing and I know in my wearing just my constable hair hat again, this is an area that we are addressing with young people.

PerleyBrewer   53:06
Yes.

Susan Fleming   53:16
About giving them it's it's ethics to understand with critical thinking and ethics what is correct and what is not. And and this is something that's being built into our programs now.

PerleyBrewer   53:16
OK.
Mhm.

Susan Fleming   53:31
Going forward.

PerleyBrewer   53:33
Well, look, Susan, I'd like to thank you very much for taking the time out of your schedule. It's been very interesting to to hear your approach that that you're working in and fascinating. And it's something that no one in Canada has tried, not to my knowledge.
And it it must be interesting.

Susan Fleming   53:54
Well, one of the things that I would like to put out there is that we would love to come to Canada and we would like to use Canadian actors and we can bring our play. It's very portable. We don't have big sets or anything like that. So if you can think of a conference that might be.

PerleyBrewer   54:11
Mm.

Susan Fleming   54:13
Interested. We'd love to come.

PerleyBrewer   54:15
Well, thank you very much. So thank you again, Susan. It's it's been nice to talk to you and I'm sure our listeners will very much enjoy listening to how you folks do things. It's always interesting to to hear other people's opinions and thoughts and and how they are trying to address the topic of health and safety.
To our listeners, that's all. To our listeners, as always, a big thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to listen to our podcast. As always, we appreciate any ideas you might have, either for speakers or topics. Stay safe and have a good week.

Susan Fleming   54:35
Well, thank you.
Thanks, Pearly. It's a pleasure to meet you and thanks for your time.