From Waste to Wear: The Story of REFLO's Sustainable Activewear.

In today's episode of Pre-Zero Sports Talk. We spoke with Rory MacFadyen, Co-founder of REFLO sustainable activewear.

We covered much ground, from how REFLO got started to the production process, his explanation of REFLO’s good Greenwashing, their partnership with Eden Reforestation Project, the benefits of choosing sustainable activewear, and tips for leading a more Eco-Conscious lifestyle. 

This episode will inspire you to think more deeply about your clothing choices and consider making more sustainable options in your wardrobe.

Transcript

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Sid 0:10

Welcome to the Pre Zero Sport Talk Podcast Show your home for open, straightforward, and trailing conversations on the latest happenings in the world of sports. Leading the charge for carbon neutral sports. We bring you the most exciting and engaging discussions on the airwaves. Picture this. It's the year 2050, and the word is a vastly different place. Climate change has forced us to rethink everything we do, including how we dress. Gone are the days of a fast fashion and disposable clothing in their place. New era of sustainable fashion has emerged a world where your workout clothes look and feel fabulous and contribute to a more sustainable planet. That's the word that REFLO is creating with their line of Futureproof apparel made entirely from a recycled plastic waste. Their technical fabrics are well tested and designed for style, making them perfect for movement, leisure, and everyday life. And as USA Today sports describe REFLO, and I quote: The brand's clothing doesn't have the feel of an empty plastic water bottle, but is instead buttery soft and breathable." But what sets reflow apart? Is its commitment to sustainability. They lead the way in eco-friendly fashion with 70% fewer carbon emissions than traditional clothing production. Commitment to plant one tree for every product sold and a single used plastic free supply chain. Hi everyone. I'm your host, Sid Bensalah, and this is the Pre-Zero Sport Talk, the show that explores the intersection of sports events and sustainability. And today's program is all about sustainable activewear. How does your sportswear impact the environment? We'll be hearing from one of the driving forces behind this revolution. He's a man on a mission, a Co-founder of REFLO, and a true champion for sustainability in the fashion industry. Rory Macfadyen is an award-winning sustainable apparel brand. With the goal of becoming the most sustainable clothing brand globally.

Rory 2:11

I'd like to think as the biggest innovator in the world of sport, and this North Star metric of the most sustainable apparel brand in the world, I think is somewhere that. I, I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe we can achieve it. So my hope is that in 10 years time, we are the most sustainable power brand in the world.

Sid 2:28

Despite 18 months old, REFLO has collaborated with major brands and events in the sports and entertainment world, providing turnkey sustainable apparel solutions for events such as WM Phoenix Open Australians Open, Neon Beach Games, Icon Series, and the women's Scottish Open. Before launching REFLO, Rory worked in the sports and entertainment industry for 15 years across marketing events and sponsorship, delivering campaigns and events for some of the world's largest brands. Through his experience and passion, Rory has become an expert in driving sustainability across the sports and entertainment industry and creating clear and comprehensive narratives to tell sustainable stories. Our discussion with Rory will revolve around the story of reflow sustainability, activewear from Waste to Wear, their challenges and their impact on the planet. Rory, having you here with us today is an absolute pleasure. The recommendation to have you on our show came from Neil Hamp- Adams himself. Until today, REFLO was not a brand on my radar. However, while researching, I was blown away by your company's commitment to sustainability and the innovative ways you are positively impacting the environment. So thank you for your time and for sharing your insights with our audience.

Rory 3:46

No worries, Sid, it's a pleasure to be on the podcast. thanks for having me, and I'm looking forward to. Talking more about the world of sustainable apparel and how we develop REFLO.

Sid 3:55

What inspired you to start REFLO and how did you get started?

Rory 4:00

Yeah. So actually, touches on something you've just discussed there of working in the sports and entertainment industry for sort of 15 odd years and within, the sports and entertainment industry. Apparel is something that features, in partnerships, in events, in marketing quite regularly. And, I was very aware throughout my career that, there was a huge amount of waste in that industry. And I saw, Lots of apparel deals, lots of partnerships where, the huge amounts of apparel was created and produced. And it was a very unsustainable, It's a very understandable process, to be honest. And the more I looked into it, especially with sport, which is quite seasonal, if you look at, a football team, maybe their season is eight months long and then have new sponsors and things move on like that. And the more I dig into it and researched, into this, Into this issue that I was seeing, the more I uncovered. So something that goes massively underreported is the, apparel industry is the third most polluting industry in the world. It doesn't quite get the attention, that maybe others do. I was, thinking there must be, A better way to do this. And the majority of sportswear is made from virgin polyester, which is, made from oil. So very intensive on the world, involves digging up oil and using huge amounts of energy and heat to turn that into a polymer, to then turn it into a fabric. And, I was thinking there must be a better solution to this. A similar time, a good friend of mine, was introduced to a company that could turn waste plastic into high performance fabrics. And something was born in that I, that moment, that idea, that conversation that there's actually, A better way of doing things where we can turn waste products into high performance fabrics that could then be put into apparel. And the more, my friend and I looked into this and we dug into this, we started thinking actually, that's great. That is a solving a solution, but there are far bigger, problems within the apparel industry, which also need looking at. We decided that we wanted to go on a mission to create the most sustainable power brand in the world, and, do everything that we can in every element of production from product sourcing, how we manufacture, how we distribute, how we ship the product. To always think of two peas, which is people. And plan it and then hopefully profit will follow. So we spent around three and a half years developing the idea of reflow and we do all sorts of things, that I won't go into everyone on this podcast cuz we could be here for a very long time. But for example, there's no single use plastics in it where an asset supply chain, all of our packaging is biodegradable. Something that absolutely drives me crazy is especially when you buy something online and it comes in a plastic, polybag, they're called and you end up, if you, let's multiply that by a thousand, a shop buys a wholesale a thousand t-shirts that they wanna sell over a period of time that comes in a thousand individual poly bags. So even when you get some brands who claim to be sustainable and use recycled fabrics, then it gets delivered in a plastic bag. Makes no sense to me. So all of our packaging is biodegradable. There, we carbon off offset our entire workforce, ensure fair working conditions for the people making, our products, unfair wages, to, they're just a few of the things we do. There's a multitude of things. Yeah, the inspiration came from real world experiences of working in industry, and the solution, came from trying to think around, trying to think of things differently than, than maybe the incumbent brands do.

Sid 7:03

Can you tell us more about REFLO's production process and how does it differs from traditional activewear brands?

Rory 7:10

Sure. So we use recycle polyester as our primary, fabric. So recycle polyester takes for us, it's household consumer waste. So when someone's throws something in the recycling bin, that goes off to a recycling plant is clean, shredded, then it goes to, a next stage which is heating. So you heat that, use far less energy and heat. then you would do traditional, polyester, that's for sure. you heat that and then you can extract that into yarns and those yarns can be woven into high performance fabrics. And, that actually was one of the things that took a really long amount of time, was making sure the fabrics. Performed well and we're right. there's maybe a little bit of thinking in people's heads when they think of recycled, fabrics that they're maybe sweaty or, they don't breathe as well and they're not stretchy. So we spent a long time developing fabrics to make sure they're as good as the incumbents. You have to, your product has to be as good as everyone else's. the non-sustainable brands. Sustainability is, really important, but if your product isn't great, then people aren't gonna buy it. that's generally the process. Sometimes we add recycled coffee, into the process where we take waste coffee grounds from coffee shops, extract a chemical and embed that in the yard during the heating process, which is a natural antibacterial to stop smell sticking to clothing. So yeah, that's our main, our current main, way of producing clothing, whereas. Most traditional power brands use, virgin polyester, which as I mentioned at the beginning, is taken by taking oil and going through the polymer extraction or polymer development, which involves huge amounts of energy, to create, to get to that point where it's plastic and then you extract it. And then it's a very similar process from there, to what we do. yeah, that's, that's the main difference.

Sid 8:44

Good where the production takes place.

Rory 8:47

So our production takes place in China. we try and be as vertical as possible. So our fabrics are made in China, our productions in China, and our waste comes from China as well. There are rightly, a lot of criticisms about certain processes and factories within China, and we're not afraid to address them head on. In fact, if you go on our website, we're very transparent with that. We name our production partners why we work with certain factories. So for us, we built a code of conduct. That, factories must adhere to. We independently audit them to make sure that, as I mentioned earlier, there are good working conditions, fair wages, and such and, we only work with factories that adhere to those things. And maybe some of the bigger brands in the world, the factories they work with aren't the right type of factories for us, where they're focused on tiniest slither of margin. We always say if, If you are paying absolute rock bottom for a product, the chances are someone in the ecosystem isn't, being paid fairly to, in that, and the person most likely not being paid fairly is the person producing your garment. So that's super important to us. as I mentioned, we independently audit, all of the factories we work with to ensure, that they are doing, what we expect of them. And, we do that every year.

Sid 9:55

And do you believe that you have a unique value proposition? And what sets REFLO apart from other sustainable activewear brands in the market?

Rory 10:04

I think for us, sustainability is core in everything that we do. our mission statement is to be the most sustainable apparel brand in the world. And so for us, that flows through every decision we make. Be it around product, be it around people, be it around, how we distribute our product, where we distribute our product, how we sell the product. Every single thing is driven by that. And I think more and more in the industry, you're seeing a lot of Greenwashing take place where people are using sustainability as a marketing tool. where as for us, a hundred percent isn't just a marketing tool. We are genuinely on a mission to try and change an industry. And we have a five year sustainable roadmap, which will see us. continue to be at the forefront of sustainable innovation, and I think that's really important. We're not sitting on our laurels with using recycled polyester and, doing all the other great stuff we do. We're constantly looking to improve and our hope is that over a period of time we'll be seen as, the brand at the forefront of sustainable innovation.

Sid 10:59

And is reflow more expensive than traditional activewear?

Rory 11:03

I would say it's. Probably at the higher end of, mainstream brands. So we are not super luxury. We're not, even if you look actually now at the likes of Lululemon or Castor, they're both brands that are more expensive than us. But if you were to compare us to an icon like ADIDAS as, we're probably at the top end of their kind of luxury ranges. So an ADIDAS as, Stella McCartney range, for example. we are at that price positioning. So we don't want to price ourselves out of the market. We don't want to try. as I mentioned earlier, that if you get into a scenario where you are, trying to compete to be the cheapest out there, it's a race to the bottom and you end up, we can't produce fabrics and our products in the way that we want to produce them and go into a price wall to be the cheapest out there. We, we're reassuringly expensive where we say REFLO is not cheap because if it was cheap, the products will be cheap. And they're not. They're made to last. They're made from recycled fabrics. We plant a tree for every product sold. We only work in factories that pay people fairly. Those things mean that we, rightly have a slightly higher price positioning than, maybe some of the incumbents.

Sid 12:07

Good for every product sold. You pledge to plant a tree. Is this pledge a hundred percent commitment from reflow or is just a promise?

Rory 12:15

A hundred percent commitment. It's built into our financial modeling. We've got, we've financially modeled where we plan to be over the next seven years. And it never disappears. It's always built into that model. It's super important to us. So when we talk about, creating the most sustainable apparel brand in the world, it's impossible to create, a fully sustainable apparel brand. That's almost an oxymoron. The most, the only real way of sustain. Sustainably dressing yourself is to not dress yourself, is to be naked. There's always an impact of, creating clothing. for us we wanted to create positive impacts through what we do as well. We call that active regeneration. So it's built into what we do. We plant trees in Mozambique and Madagascar to a lot of research, into how and where we plant trees. We work with the Eden Reforestation Program and. We actually can't Mangroves because they oxygenate the air, they oxygenate water as well, which is super important. They help stop coastal erosion. And the tree planting that we fund, actually gives employment opportunities for people who would normally work, in industry such as agriculture in those parts of the world, which actively deforest, people strip land to, create, farmland to great cattle or whatever else on. we, it's an absolute commitment and it's something that we're very passionate about. In fact, we wanna plant a million trees over the next five years. we've got a lot of tree planting to do.

Sid 13:28

Excellent. And for our listeners, Rory, can you explain what Active Regeneration means?

Rory 13:35

Yeah. So that's part of it. It's part of partly, creating positive impact through everything we do. and, That stretches far and wide with the business, into not just tree planting, but giving back. we are, our aim is to be a B corporation, which will mean, profits are reinvested into good causes. And all of the things I mentioned before become part of kind of the core of the business. But, also we do other great things like we, Offer all of our staff a day off a month for community volunteering. so they're able to give back, and that's a form of regeneration as well. So as a business, as a company, we wanna have a positive impact as well as the negative impact that our production has. So that's what we mean by Active Regeneration.

Sid 14:15

You mentioned earlier about greenwashing, and I've read that REFLO, there is a lot of greenwashing, but positive, good kind of greenwashing. Can you explain?

Rory 14:24

Yeah, absolutely. We say the only green washing we do is in the washroom. for us, we want to ensure that clothes are, handled in the right way, that, doesn't create, negative impact. microplastics, for example, are rightly talked about as an issue of synthetic clothing. They've actually sold out, but for, and we are looking to reorder them and we are reordering them. We were offer plastic microplastic wash filters, at cost price on the website for people to purchase. So that basically is a filter bag. You wash your clothes in and it stops those little bits of plastic microplastics, entering waterways and, and the oceans. And ultimately, we actively encourage people to wash their clothes, in a certain way. And that's we playfully say that's our greenwashing. because, actual greenwashing we see in the industry is, is rife and is actually something we don't like very much.

Sid 15:14

Imagine a world where all active world are sustainable. How do you think this will impact the environment?

Rory 15:21

I think it's important that. we've gotta be realistic that there, there'll always be an impact. Of creating clothing, no matter what the clothing is, there is always an impact. there's almost no, there's very little that we can do in this world, which doesn't have an impact, but I think it's really important to, for people to be aware of the impact that they're having and be able to understand the impact they're having. We are working on, projects where we're able to calculate carbon impact, for example, of a t-shirt on its own or a pair of joggers or whatever, and be able to understand that impact that has and would always offset that impact, in carbon offsetting or other ways. But I think, I think that there will always be an impact and our hope is that, other brands follow with what we are doing and try and create, products which have less impact. But, it's, I think it's all about this world of consumerism, where bye bye bye. it's mad for a brand to be saying this, but we need people to understand that they need to buy less, and wear more. Because no matter what they're doing, that impact exists. We work in the world of what we call multi-functional apparel. we encourage someone to, buy a piece of clothing and use it for multiple things and create clothing that allows them to do that. So this fallacy that you need a different t-shirt to go for a run in, go to the gym and play football in, there are slight differences, but if you look at the (Nike -T) for example, is the same t-shirt made in Turkey, with just a different logo on the front. And that is what kind of needs to change. So I think brands absolutely a hundred percent need to do their part, and drive change. In fact, If they don't, then you know, it'll be a disaster. And we're starting to see a bit of it. but as I say, most of it's greenwashing, but then also there's a part of the individual to really understand the impact of their choices. But we want to give people sustainable options that are simple for them. So it's not like a difficult choice. It's not like we're saying, You're gonna have to give something up. We're not, we're just saying, we are gonna create the products for you that actually have a more positive impact. So you can, wear those. It's a tricky juxtaposition and it's, interesting for a brand to be, at the forefront saying buy less, but it generally is what needs to happen.

Sid 17:22

And what are the upsides and downsides of shifting to a hundred percent Eco activewear.

Rory 17:29

The upsides kind of speak for themselves, when we're looking at recycled polyester, it's taking a waste product. that, it would normally end up in landfill or the ocean or, in some cases incinerated that we've seen and turns it into something that's usable again. and we think that's super important. The downsides and the, there are many downsides, in, in terms of, I say many. There's more upsides than downsides when comparing to. To traditional polyester, for example. But there are still things like microplastics, end of life stories, as soon as you put two fabrics together, currently it's very different. So if you combine a cotton and a polyester together currently, that makes it very difficult to recycle that. but now we're working in the world of mono fiber and actually our next range will see a couple of our products being completely single fiber. So when I say single fiber, there's no elastin in there, there's no cotton in there. It's a hundred percent recycled polyester, which makes it also recyclable as well as recycled. there's this kind of end of life story that synthetic materials and in general synthetic materials are the best sports wear because they do. stretch a lot. They're moisture wick, they're the best for, that's why most performance wear is made from synthetic. but you're creating, options to recycle them at end of life rather than them ending up in landfill as well. yeah, I would say that's one of the downsides, but something we're actively addressing and trying to make a change on as well.

Sid 18:48

Although the company's almost 18 months old, there seems to be more focus on men than women in the production line. Can you explain why that is?

Rory 18:57

Absolutely. So In transparency, we actually designed a women's wear range very early on, almost alongside our initial men's wear collection. and we weren't sure if it was fantastic at the time. We were, a brand new business that was just myself, and my business partner. We had two guys. We are both actively involved in what we do. So we both, we make active wear, leisure wear, golf wear and everything in between. And we both pay golf. We both go, fairly active. and we know what makes a great product because we wear the product. And then for women's wear, we, were sampling and we were unsure if it was, as good as it should be. And. The last thing you wanna do as a sustainable brand is overproduce. So we didn't want to create a women's wear branch, which, wasn't as good as it should be and didn't sell. and when you're a very small business and, there're essentially two of you, you've gotta focus. And we focused on what we knew to be right. or good rather than right. and develop that. And women's wear is, actively being developed at the moment and we're thankful as we've grown. We've bought on a wonderful team. We have our lead designer. is, Pollyanna, who, is a female active wear designer. We have, both of our product developers are both female and they're able to tell us, they wear the apparel and they're experts in how you develop and create, women's wear. So we now have some brilliant people alongside us to say, this is the right direction. Maybe this isn't quite right. And I think it was the right decision, to focus. So you will see a REFLO women's wear range come, in the next couple of seasons. but, it was a decision purely to focus on what we were able to have some control over and what we knew better, with the, thinking of sustainability again, that overproduction is a bad thing, so let's produce a smaller amount and let's get it right and build on that.

Sid 20:39

And are there any plans to release products for children and juniors in the near future?

Rory 20:44

I wouldn't say the near future. it's something that we've discussed briefly internally, but it's not on any immediate roadmap over the next three years or so. but it might be something that, we do. And we've actually produced, we've got some great friends in the business who have young kids who love REFLO and follow the Instagram account and, and love seeing what we're doing. And we made a little run of stuff for some family, friends and their kids. But, that was, more just because they were so excited about what we were doing and they love sustainability. I think that generation, 10 to 15 where they're at that age where sustainability is something that's embedded within, they're taught about, and we did for them, but it's not in, the immediate product pipeline for kind of mainstream, product or mainline product rather.

Sid 21:25

And from a design point of view, Rory, is the process difficult?

Rory 21:30

I think you're seeing right now a massive trend of trend-based product and when you look at, brands, which are. flying at the moment or have been for a long while. But some of the newer ones, like Jim Shark or Pretty Little Thing, or Boohoo, they're fast fashioned brands. So they're designing based on really quick turnover and there's a trend happening now over three months. And we'll design something which maybe in three months someone won't wear and it probably doesn't matter cuz that piece of clothing is gonna break anyway. It's not designed to last. And so for us it's really important not to be too trend focused, and create. Pieces, which, in the design process are, what we call seasonless. So they're not, just designed to look called spring summer 24. they're designed to, to have a timeless element to them that people want to continue wearing them, which goes back to this idea of buying less and and owning less and wearing more. So that's very much built into our design process. And we are actually, looking into something called biomimicry at the moment, which is mimicking nature in design. And actually nature has some extraordinarily solutions to like beautiful sea lines and things like that, which, nature isn't fashion or trend driven, it doesn't go out of fashion. So yeah, that's a process we're looking into. But as I mentioned, we've got a great designer called Pollyanna who is, leading all of those things. And in reality, part of what I've gotta do is maybe stay out a little bit of giving intricate design detail because, then we just design what I like. And, I think probably as my friends to attest to, I'm, not a fashionista though, by any level. but, yeah, I think it's important to let people. Do what they are incredible at. And Pollyanna is an incredible designer and let her have the ability to create ranges and lines which fit together. I would say it's very, it's because it's so subjective. It's very tricky, but you've got to trust the people around you who are, experts at these things, of which we've got thankfully.

Sid 23:22

And who has the last say?

Rory 23:25

Final sign off is, is probably me. But I, and it's something I, it is really hard to do, right? I've had to learn to do it and maybe in our first ranges I was too involved. but more recently when we've been doing product reviews, the first question I ask is, What do you think? to our product team? What's your, cuz their thinking is, whilst I, I'm a target, probably target market myself, if I see something which I think is completely wrong and not right, I'm, I might put my hand up. But actually giving them the freedom, and not putting too much of my own spin on things, I think is super important. And actually that's a philosophy we carry across the whole business. Not just, not just product design.

Sid 24:02

And your consumers, what do they think about the product itself?

Rory 24:06

The reaction's been incredible, to be honest. our aim is to be a brand that people are proud to wear. and if people are proud to wear a brand, they'll talk about wearing it to others. and you create this word of mouth community, which is what we're starting to see happen. It's fantastic. And I think there are some, there are some hard metrics that we can look at. So if we look at the website and look at reorder rates, I think the e-com average is around 10%. So a reorder rate is when someone buys one time, they come back within a certain period of time and purchase again. We have over our reorder rate is over 30%, which is fantastic. So the e-com average is 10%. So people generally tend to buy a few bits, see how they go, see if they like them and come back and buy more, which is a great sign. I've had, honestly a fantastic response. And we're now at the stage, which is completely humbling, where you see people wearing the brand out and about. and maybe in our first few months we saw our friends and family wear it a lot, and it was like, that's cool. But then seeing complete strangers. I actually had a meeting today, and a guy walked past me wearing a REFLO cap. No idea who he was. And I said, that's pretty cool. and I was out in a meeting so I couldn't say anything. But normally I'm, the weird guy goes up to, I go, oh, I love your cat. Where did you get it from? What'd you think of it? And almost use it as an opportunity to talk about the brand without them knowing that I'm actively involved in it. Yeah, we've had a great response and we hope as we evolve and bring out new products and, improve products, I think, and work on innovation, that can only keep on improving and we keep on surprising and delighting. So that's the aim. But it's amazing to see,

Sid 25:31

Yeah. And how do you ensure the quality and durability of your product?

Rory 25:35

Testing is super important. So you have, A lab testing if you like, where you can test, multiple things in that scenario from making sure the fabric doesn't peel to color, fastness to, and everything in between. So we work with third party testing houses. We have a REFLO testing manual, which, we give to them and say, we want you to test for this, and this. And they take away the fabrics and the products and they wash them and they come back to us with reports. you know how commercial things are. Our aim is to create products that we want to last. when we're choosing which fibers and yarns put things together, we generally go with a more premium option. Cuz we want things to last as long as possible. But nothing can beat good old wear testing, and getting people to wear samples in the products and give feedback. And again, we have, feedback forms, Currently we've got three members of the team testing some autumn winter gear. One is, testing some of the gym wear, some one's testing something which is a bit more golfy. And then someone else is testing fabric durability and wash at home wash tests. so yeah, There's the fact, there's the kind of, lab side of things a very scientific way, but the old school way is still, something that we do and is super important and actually shows up some stuff that lab testing doesn't.

Sid 26:45

Are there any misconceptions about, sustainable activewear?

Rory 26:49

Yeah, absolutely. I know it's something that we've learned quite a lot through, retail as well. recently working with some key retailers and understanding people's reaction in store to product. So there generally is a misconception, and I actually wouldn't necessarily say it's a misconception. I'd say it has been true in the past that, recycle polyester doesn't perform as well as virgin polyester that it's, that doesn't wick moisture as well, so it's sweaty. It's not as soft to touch, it's a bit brittle and and it's not very stretchy and not as comfortable. and people have those, those thoughts and sometimes they're true. And it's something we worked really hard to ensure wasn't the case with our product. So there's definitely an education piece. We love working with retailers and big events and anytime we can get to get product in people's hands where they can touch, feel, see, and realize that isn't the case, is a win for us.

Sid 27:39

And if your mission was to create sustainable activewear for a particular sport, which sport would you choose and why?

Rory 27:47

I think we're trying to move into a world where we're relatively sport agnostic. and not be too hyper-focused on sports. Currently, people would maybe look at us and see golf is what we call our sharp point, which is, we are strong on golf wear and, we are strong in the golf industry. And a lot of my background in sports and entertainment is around golf, which has helped. But, for us, multi-functional apparel is the future where we're trying to define less, What people should wear to do things in, and people can wear whatever they feel comfortable to do things in. And for me that means a golf polo shirt, isn't a golf polo shirt, it's a polo shirt. And you can play tennis in it. You can play golf in it. and I think. There are some in instances where that is impossible. Cycling is a great example where you need specific performance. especially if you are getting on a road bike. you don't wanna be wearing any old thing I own, occasionally I go for a cycle and, probably not as often as I should do. But you definitely need, clothing design specifically for that. Otherwise, I think you'd be walking. Even more funny for a very long time afterwards. it's not, again, cycling's not on our immediate roadmap. It's something that we've discussed, but this idea of being multi-functional performance wear means that sport necessarily doesn't need to. We don't need to dig down into certain verticals. And then having said that, we're also, team wear is a big part for us. And, if we were to work with a football club for example, they would expect their strip to be a certain way. But the fabrics that we use to create that strip are things which can work, in other ranges as well. So we are not just producing a certain type of fabric to do one thing in particular with, yeah, it's a long-winded answer, but, it's, it, yeah, I think that kind of aligns more with our vision.

Sid 29:26

Good. And, do you explore new technologies and innovations to improve your product beside of using plastic waste?

Rory 29:33

Hundred percent. And that's key, for us. we're building out a five year roadmap across the entire business around, sustainability and what that means. Sustainability is ever evolving as well. There are technologies under development now that be released over the coming years that we don't even know about. And there are some things that we are actively involved in talking about using enzymes to break down plastics as an end of life stories is, is super cool. And I think something that will progress quite a lot. and yeah, I think I. we're taking it to the nth degree at the moment. We are having our conversations with the university in the UK, about working on, a few innovation projects. I can't say too much more because they will be at, they're our IP and things that we want to, to own and develop and, but yeah, we, I think sustainable innovation is hugely important. And while you see us using recycled polyester as our core now, I think if you came back and we have this conversation in five years time, It could look very differently and it would look very differently because, there are things we're already looking at. some are bio-based, some are recyclable, some are, the things that we're looking at with this university, which are under wraps. But, some are, Some are very different. Completely out there. Ideas that are ideas, literally ideas at the moment that, we're wondering how we can do it and if we can do it. So yeah, we are, we'll constantly be evolving and we are imperfect, right? And we are, we're very clear on that. We are not the finished article, we aren't perfect. we can always improve and always get better, and that's our mindset.

Sid 30:57

And where do you see Reflow in 10 years from now?

Rory 31:01

I'd like to think as the biggest innovator in the world of sport, and this North Star metric of the most sustainable apparel brand in the world, I think is somewhere that. I, I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe we can achieve it. So my hope is that in 10 years time, we are the most sustainable power brand in the world. And we'll constantly be evolving. And because of the fast rate of technology is changing, I couldn't say exactly what it'll be, but I can assure you it probably won't be what it is now.

Sid 31:26

And do you see the consumers driving the growth of sustainable activewear to achieve your vision?

Rory 31:33

Absolutely. I think what in transparency, I think people aren't making decisions right now purely on sustainability. It's not the only decision making metric that people use when me, buying clothes. But I think if they're given the option between two products, and one has a sustainable, a genuine, sustainable story and the other doesn't, I think they'll go for the sustainable option. So there definitely is, a rise in demand for that. And I think that's only gonna increase with the generation maybe below my generation. I'm mid early thirties, This Gen-Z generation, I think is looking at things very differently and will change industries quicker than we can expect. I think it is slowly moving. I think the important thing is not just being a sustainable brand. Being a brand that make good clothing that people wanna wear regardless, and the sustainability factor is almost, what converts them. finally. yeah, that, that's my thinking.

Sid 32:24

Yeah, that's interesting. And going forward, how can you balance, trend, fashion, quality, and durability with the consumers?

Rory 32:34

I think it's not been too trend focused. I think you don't go too, don't get me wrong. We put things out there which are fashion driven and we think, people wanna wear cuz they're fashionable. That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm saying, we just have to be really careful not to be hyper trend focused, which a lot of these bars, fashion brands are. And something that's in for, six weeks and then out, she and re produce thousands of skews every week. and it's all high turnaround and not worry about quality. So for us, the focus will always be on quality, and longevity and the way we design and what we build into, that will always be a part of it. And, we're not gonna produce new lines. Every month, you're not gonna see, we do, we'll probably drop two ranges of product a year max, and then we might do the occasional capsule drop, where we are looking at, introducing new technology or new ideas, which isn't ready to be in a full range yet. But it works really well. And I think, one we're looking at the moment is using Carbon Capture to create ink. So trapping carbon, into inks and using that as a printing technique, that isn't something that can work across our entire range. But we are looking to create a little capsule around that, which tells that great story and creates, something great and it's a test case and we can always roll it out in a bigger scale if it works in a smaller scale. So I think it's not been too focused on constantly churning out new product. It's about doing less better.

Sid 33:57

And what can the fashion industry do to promote sustainability and ethical practices?

Rory 34:03

I think this is, I think this has to start at with the major players. I think the more people need to. Call out greenwashing when they say it. And the big brands need to stop thinking. Sustainability is a marketing tool. and not all of them do, but the vast majority do. and do the bare minimum and talk about it as much as possible. That has to stop. There needs to be a genuine, reaction to, to change the way things are done. But actually it's not as easy for these big guys, as wanting to change the actual change that they need to do. We've built it from the ground up. In certain ways for those guys, they're steering an oil tanker in some cases, quite literally. And to move its course is very difficult. they, to unravel their entire way of production is, will be very hard. And for us it's we are more of a speedboat, who are quite nimble. And I think the other thing that we'd like to see a bit more of is, we are a small. Independent, sustainable brand. and opportunity is quite hard, so we're running a thriving direct consumer platform. We've got some incredible partnerships with events, and sports organizations around the world. We've got some incredible, relationships with athletes, which are, and a few more to be announced this year, which are huge, like game changers for us. But the guys who hold the purse strings of. buying and, retailing, to get that door open is very difficult. and something that, in transparency we struggle with. and to truly scale, we need to be in a available to buy in more places and to be available to buy in more places. We need those big retailers to. want to work with genuinely sustainable brands and have an impact themselves. And I'm not saying that's not quite there yet, but it's definitely a challenge. and, we knock on a lot of doors and sometimes get rebuffed and, for us, that's, we've gotta prove ourselves, right? We've gotta go away then. And then next time we knock on their door, show them something new and show them why they need to have that conversation with us.

Sid 35:53

Good. What is REFLO's, Carbon Footprint.

Rory 35:57

That's a super tricky question to answer. and something actually that we are developing in our five year roadmap. We want to be able to identify the Carbon Footprint of an individual product, not just the entire business. and if you imagine how difficult that is because you're looking at. Like source of waste, plastic and the recycling process and then moving that on and understanding that entire, the carbon impact of every level of that process is super difficult, but it's something that we're doing. We wanna create, product passports we call them, where every product will have a QR code on and you can see where that product's been, and then therefore understand its carbon, Carbon Impact, and then we will offset that. So that's where we want to aim at. Currently what we do is we offset our own workforce, because that's a lot easier for us to measure. The average person produces 10 tons of carbon a year in their day-to-day life, be it going to and from the office, going on holiday, going, heating their house. All of those things. and we offset 14 tons of carbon per person within our workforce, which is around 26 people. currently we offset per month. So it's, it's over simplistic as a way of doing it. and it's something that we want to drill further down into, but I, we're 18 months old and I actually don't think that's an excuse for not doing anything, which is why we are doing what we do, but it's something that we definitely want to improve on and have more visibility over.

Sid 37:18

What advice would you give entrepreneurs looking to enter the sustainable activewear industry?

Rory 37:24

We approached it, having never worked in the industry before, which when we tell people who work in the industry, they think we're bonkers. And now I can see why. It's, it's a very tight knit industry and there are certain ways of doing things. And those way of doing things are often how they've been done for decades. And, people will always try and steer you into the path of least resistance, which is the easiest way because. natural human reaction to something is going, this is how I know to do it. Let's do it like this. So as we've gone through this process, there's often been times where people go, why don't you just use normal polyester? Why don't oh, your packaging can be, just use poly bags. Just do, because that's the easiest way of doing things. So my piece of advice would be stand true to what you're doing. So build out. understand what you wanna do to start with. So we built out this manifesto and that's changing and it's moving as we've bought on. Incredible people in the team with different inputs. cause that's constantly evolving. But it gives us a baseline to know how we do things and what our rules are as a business for production and the way we deal with things and stick to those guns and don't accept know for an answer or don't take the path of least resistance. Cause if you take the path of least resistance, you end up where everyone ends up and you'll be the same as everyone. So for us it was maybe making harder decisions or, Doing things that aren't doing things in ways that aren't done normally to get, results that we wanted. So that would be my kind of main piece of advice and something I always say is don't be afraid to make mistakes as well. if we say it internally all the time, if you aren't making mistakes, you aren't trying enough things, you aren't learning. and if you make the same mistake six times in a row, there's probably a bit of a problem there doing something which isn't too smart. But don't be afraid to make mistakes. If you're making mistakes, you're trying something new, which, you've always gotta try and do to innovate. yeah.

Sid 39:13

Good. How can individuals build a sustainable wardrobe on a budget?

Rory 39:18

I think it goes back to buying less. I think simplicity is key. And I think, we operate very much in the kind of, in, in the activewear and performance space. We try and even though we do that, we try and make things that can go into everyday life. So we try and make kind of Chino trousers, which are high performance that someone can dress up with a shirt and a pair of shoes and wear to the office, and, or wear out for dinner. And it's this, as well as, They can go for a hike in them, they could play golf in them and they'd look great in all of those scenarios. yeah, I would say simplify buy, buy less, wear more, buy multifunctional pieces, and don't get hooked into this world of fast fashion. where a Primark or a Sheen or a Boohoo is very easy to just go, oh, I'll go and buy a new something now because it costs a tenor, a new T-shirt's, 10 pounds, great. And you wear it three times and it might fall apart, but you don't care cause it's a tenor. getting out of that is, is super important.

Sid 40:16

Excellent. Now it's time for the lightning questions. Are you up for some speedy Q&A?

Rory 40:22

Absolutely. Let's do it.

Sid 40:24

Let's start. What's your favorite way to stay? Active.

Rory 40:28

I play a lot of Golf, and I play Paddle Tennis a lot. I love Paddle Tennis. It's a more recent addiction. In fact, I'm playing Paddle Tennis tonight. Great game. If you've not played it, try it.

Sid 40:38

Good, Good. What is your biggest inspiration in the sustainable fashion industry?

Rory 40:44

I think Patagonia are inspirational. I think the founder of Patagonia built the company in a, in a way, and it flows to everything that they do. So I think they're an inspiration in kind of the outdoor space that we'd quite like to create in the performance space. yeah, Patagonia are fantastic. I.

Sid 41:00

What is the one thing you wish everyone knew about sustainability?

Rory 41:05

The amount of Greenwashing that goes on and being able to see through that starting to happen. People are starting to see through greenwashing a bit more, but, don't believe, everything, every brand tells you, unless they're transparent about what they're telling you.

Sid 41:18

What book, movie or documentary do you recommend for people interested in sustainability?

Rory 41:24

I think for me, I don't think there's any singular one, kind of source, or book, which has been a singular piece of inspiration. It's more lived experiences through, working and then followed by, Reading and trying to learn as much as possible, from multiple sources. Although in a previous conversation that we've had, you recommended a great book called Scale and Speed, which I've since purchased, I've purchased fit for members of our team. in fact, I bought, I bought three copies of it and we have a rotor now who's gonna read it and when. including myself. I need to start reading it, but I'm looking forward to reading that.

Sid 41:56

Fantastic. Fantastic. What's your favorite piece of reflow art wear and why?

Rory 42:02

I love, hoodies. they're super comfortable, super versatile. Wear them to and from the gym. Wear them out and about, wear them on the Golf course. they, yeah, they are, they're great. I also love our polo shirts and I'm always wearing a baseball cap, as probably my friends with attest to. I know you said one, but I've was given three. but yeah, baseball caps, love them.

Sid 42:21

What's your worst career advice you've ever gotten?

Rory 42:25

Probably a controversial one I think, that you have to go to University. It was something I was, that was drilled into me when I was growing up and actually I think I have learned more through the real world and lived experiences than, than I ever learned through study and, and. Yeah, I think the perfect example of that is at university, my first two years in university, I didn't really have an idea of what I wanted to do or much drive really in academic world. I'm not the most academic person. And my third year I went on replacement year, worked in a real world, worked in a marketing agency, loved it. Got I got it. I could put theory to the real world and actually the real world made a lot more sense than the theory. And I went back to university to do my final year and managed to get a first class degree, off the back of that one year in industry. So I think, yeah, University Education isn't the bill and end all, even though I have a degree. I think I've learned far more outside of studies and real world application.

Sid 43:21

Which leader that you admire the most?

Rory 43:27

That this is a really tricky one. at the moment, I think the world lacks great leaders. and, I don't wanna get into a whole debate on this world of identity politics and fear mongering and, and everything that exists in between. I think I, I currently don't think there is. a political maybe world leader, that I think I admire to, I, I would, again, go back to the Patagonia example of a business leader who never gave away, the fundamentals of why he built the business and recently gave the whole business away, which I think is incredible. and I think that would probably be a great example of a leader, but probably not the type of leader you'd normally think of.

Sid 44:03

One piece of good advice for listeners on any topic.

Rory 44:09

I think going back to what I said before of don't be afraid to make mistakes. I think mistakes are needed and don't be afraid to try new things. and you can take that one step further. And actually a bit of a life motto, is bad decisions make great stories, that, you learn so much through making, and when I say bad decisions, I don't mean actively go out and make bad decisions, but, generally if you make a decision, it turns out to be the wrong one. At least you'll have a good anecdote to be able to tell people about. yeah, for me it's, it's all entrenched in that same line of thinking.

Sid 44:39

Good. Can you recommend someone for us to talk to for our next, podcast episode, knowing that, we are just, a few months old?

Rory 44:48

Absolutely. There's a great brand called New Water the founder is a guy called Cyrus. And, they're doing a great job at tackling plastic waste, and the plastic waste problem through creating canned water. I love what they're doing. Cyrus is a great guy, really interesting background. Worked for Apple for a long while. I think you'd have a really good podcast with him.

Sid 45:07

Excellent. Rory, thank you very much for your time. Speaking to you has been great. Thank you very much and best of luck.

Rory 45:14

Thanks very much, Sid. I've really enjoyed it myself. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Sid 45:18

I really enjoyed speaking to Rory, and I only spent 60 minutes with him, and I can only see that he's resolute to his vision and his goal of becoming the most sustainable clothing brand globally. That brings us to the end of today's episode of the "Pre-Zero Sports Talk". We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Rory Macfadyen, Co-founder of REFLO Sustainable Activewear. We covered much ground from how REFLO got started to the production process. His explanation on Reflows' Good Greenwashing, their partnership with Eden Reforestation Project, the benefits of choosing sustainable activewear and tips for leading a more Eco-conscious lifestyle. We hope this episode has inspired you to think more deeply about your clothing choices and consider making more sustainable options into your wardrobe. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll see you next time. If you enjoyed this podcast, please download, subscribe, write a comment, or let us know what topic you would like us to cover in future episodes. Thanks for joining our show. Tune in next time for more open, straightforward, and exciting sports conversations. Have a nice day.