Family In Progress

Navigating Grief: A Conversation

• Family Enrichment Center & Samantha Berry • Season 2 • Episode 20

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Resources:
https://www.mccoycounseling.com/about

https://www.facebook.com/stepsforsamuel

https://whatsyourgrief.com/randos-six-r-processes-of-mourning/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060084294?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_4GTB828N93VNY0G462A0&skipTwisterOG=1&bestFormat=true

Grief can manifest in countless ways, often extending beyond the confines of loss through death. Join us for a poignant episode with Julie McCoy, a certified grief counselor and co-founder of Steps for Samuel, as she opens up about her personal journey through grief. Inspired by her own experiences, Julie shares the heartfelt mission behind her organization, offering solace to those in her community who face the raw emotions of loss. With meaningful initiatives like comfort kits for hospitals and annual remembrance events, Julie's work underscores the importance of community support and education.

The landscape of grief is complex, often misunderstood as a linear path defined by stages. This episode provides a fresh perspective with insights from Laura, who contributes her expertise on the challenges faced by foster families. We discuss frameworks such as the six R's of grief and the dual process model, which acknowledge the fluid and continuous nature of healing. Through thoughtful conversation, we highlight the emotional weight carried by foster parents and children during the holiday season, emphasizing the need for sensitivity and understanding in navigating these difficult times.

Communication remains key, especially within the realms of adoption and foster care. Our discussion touches on the importance of language, exploring how mindful communication can foster compassion and connection. Personal anecdotes remind us of the power of shared stories and the necessity of holding space for one another. We conclude with a reflection on the significance of nurturing relationships through grief, encouraging listeners to honor their emotions and prioritize self-care. Whether you're seeking to understand grief better or looking for community support, this episode offers a heartfelt exploration of the many dimensions of loss.

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Sam:

Hey, welcome to Family in Progress. You may have heard November's Adoption Awareness Month. If you haven't done so, please check out our website to see how you can join in the celebration. I appreciate those of you who are listening. It really does mean so much to have you here.

Sam:

This episode we're diving into grief. Grief is so complex and we're not going to cover it all in just an hour. This is just a start to a conversation, but one that you have been asking for. Over the next hour. I invite you to open your mind, prepare your hearts. We may get some things wrong and we may say some things that are hard to hear, but we're all human and this conversation really is with the best intentions.

Sam:

In this episode, I've invited a community member whom many consider to be very knowledgeable and well-versed in grief work. Julie McCoy from McCoy Counseling and Steps for Samuel takes some time to sit down with Laura and myself. This conversation was personal for us both, but we invite you into this space and we hope that something we say feels like a hug. Check out the episode description for links to resources that we mentioned More information on McCoy Counseling and Steps for Samuel. But before we jump in, I recognize that this is a very sensitive topic. It's okay if this is the episode you choose to skip. If this conversation brings up emotions you need assistance with, please don't hesitate to reach out to us.

Julie:

Take it away. Tell me who you are. Well, I'm julie mccoy and I am the co-founder of steps for samuel, which is a pregnancy and infant loss awareness campaign here in bowling green, kentucky. I'm also the owner of mccoy counseling, which is a therapy agency here in town on Lovers Lane. I've been in social work. I'm an LCSW. I've been in social work in one way or another since like 1999. Got my undergrad from Western in psych and sociology and then I got my master's from Western in social work. So I've done a lot of different things. I've worked in at the rape crisis center here in town, hope harbor. I've worked at rivendell. I worked at a private foster care agency for about 10 years, um, so I've done kind of a lot of different things. Um, I'm also a certified grief, um certified grief counselor, and um we have others in our office that do the same thing.

Sam:

So okay, so just a little background on you, I guess. I'm just curious did you always know that you wanted to go into like focusing on grief counseling or focusing on counseling at all?

Julie:

not really. Um, I did psych and sociology as an undergrad just because I was interested in it, and then I got a job at rivendell and my boss and one of my dearest friends at that point was like you really need to get your master's if you want to do more. Yeah, um, so I ended up getting my master's, worked in a lot of different things, um, for a while. And then, um, we had our son, samuel, at five months gestation and he was he was stillborn, and at that point there weren't many resources, and so we decided we needed to do something for the community to give these people space to figure things out and not be stigmatized.

Julie:

Um, and then, after I lost my mom shortly after that, um, just the com, the, you know the, the combination of the two. Um, you know, all these people are out here grieving and don't really know what to do. People who are with the griever don't know what to do and they say all the wrong things, sometimes unintentionally, and so we wanted to make it a mission to allow people to be educated and give these families space. So that's kind of how we got here.

Sam:

Which I'm grateful for that. Just for listeners. We kind of came to know each other. Listeners know my story, but came to know each other through the Steps for Samuel event, which is a really I don't know if you want to do you want to talk more about steps for samuel and kind of um about the, the trees and things okay, yeah.

Julie:

So steps for samuel um is an awareness campaign.

Julie:

Our mission is honoring babies, aiding families and educating the community, and we hope to do all of those things by we provide comfort kits to the local hospital here for families and parents and siblings, so they'll have something to take home from the hospital.

Julie:

We also do a yearly remembrance event in October, because October is pregnancy and infant loss awareness, and every year we hold this event outside of COVID. We didn't do it COVID year, but every year we've done this event where we get community members together city county representatives, we read a proclamation, where we get community members together, city-county representatives, we read a proclamation, we do read babies' names and light candles in their honor and we dedicate trees in different parks, and so the goal of that is to eventually have a tree in every city and county park in Bowling Green, because a lot of these families don't have grave sites, they don't have anywhere to go to really spend any time with their children, so this is really the only tangible thing that some of these families even have. So that's kind of our goal with that and to sort of raise awareness for the community.

Sam:

And I think that's a really unique thing. I mean, tree dedication is pretty popular but just to have, I know my husband who's into disc golf, you know he sees like the little plaques on the trees and it's like, oh, what is this on the trees? And it's like, oh, what is this.

Sam:

So even that's bringing awareness and um having some place that you can go and just sit and be with your thoughts is really kind of neat and if you wouldn't mind, I'll list. I'll list all of that in the episode description. Perfect so that if listeners aren't interested in knowing where they can go or, um, even supporting Steps for Samuel.

Julie:

Absolutely.

Julie:

And in their mission.

Julie:

I'll link some of that too, so people can check that out Sounds great, and some of the parks they're placed next to the playground so you may have a child that was born before your lost baby or after your lost baby so you can take all of your children the one who's playing on the playground and the one who's beside the playground.

Julie:

So we did that intentionally. It's not at all of them, because I know a lot of people struggle with people who have had babies after a loss and they're still childless. So I think that's important to kind of think about what spot you want to pick to. Does that make sense?

Sam:

Yeah, definitely so. So you said something that I wanted to highlight. I just didn't get on it quick enough. But October is Pregnancy and Infancy Loss Awareness Month, and so we're on the tail end of that. Now we've jumped into adoption awareness month and we kind of see those who come through foster care and adoption, the ones that we've spoken with,

Sam:

The two are kind of going hand in hand, and so I wanted to provide just a, just a general chat on, I don't know, just opening the space for the conversation around grief and loss. I interviewed somebody last week who talked a little bit about the grief of when kids come to your home. Obviously, the goal of foster care is to return them. That's always the goal of foster care is to return them. That's always the goal. But when they've been in your home for a while and you have to give them back, there's a, there's a grief and then she brought up there's a grief for the biological parents too of if they do remain in your home, then knowing you know, just the empathy of them too.

Sam:

I don't really have too much of an agenda other than I just want to talk about grief. We're coming up on the holidays, it's fall and seasonal depression has kicked in, and my therapist said something last week. She was like so do you rate depression and grief as the same thing? And I'm like huh you know what I think I have been? Oh, interesting. So this might be a little somewhat of a therapy session for me.

Julie:

I don't know, I know what I'm up to.

Sam:

So I, uh, I'm gonna try not to bring in some of my own personal stuff, but sometimes that does, sure. How can it not?

Sam:

yeah and I might have somebody join us in a few minutes. She just came in, um. She is a foster adoptive mom, um, who actually her episode was earlier this month and she's the one that brought it up again too, so she might have some different insights on that that I can't bring in right, um, but do you want to talk about, I don't know do you want to talk about your experience with working with foster families?

Julie:

Um well, I think, first it's important for us to to kind of identify grief.

Julie:

Yeah, let's start there and put in knock, knock, knock, knock Uh this is Laura.

Sam:

She is one of our educators, whose episode was earlier this week and hopefully out another part today. Uh, this Is Julie mccoy, hi hi. She is with McCoy C ounseligand the steps for samuel event, which we we chatted about, um when that was coming around, so I thought maybe you could have some different insight for us. Some questions we are just starting now to maybe talk about what grief is and establishing somewhat of a baseline. Okay, for what grief is.

Julie:

Sounds great so I think grief is. I think that, um, a lot of times people aren't really sure, because they always identify it as um, as as a death. That's what they identify with, and it's not always right. So anytime you have a change in, uh, in a status of normal functioning, there's grief that comes along, and so, you, you think of death. Of course everything's going to change. When someone passes, you think about divorce, of course we're going to, you know, grieve our spouse that has left us. Or, um, we're going to think of, maybe when the kid goes to college. That's grief, right. But then there's the flip side, right. So we're celebrating things. My kid graduated high school, I'm so excited, right. But when my kid graduates, I'm gonna grieve high school sports because I won't be doing that anymore, right, and so, even though things can be so celebratory and so amazing, there's also that aspect of what do I lose, what do I mourn when this is over, even though it's a good over, but what do I lose when this happens?

Sam:

yeah, and I think I want to bring up a good point too, of grief is pretty complex it's not I wish we could give it a simplistic definition. And yeah, there's the Webster's Dictionary version of what grief is. But when you really dive into it we're not going to get to every type of grief in this episode, or we would have an entire season out, probably. Right?

Julie:

And hey, yeah, about that, about that A six-week program or something, yeah, I think we could chat, because this is something that we've.

Sam:

We've had somebody from your staff came and talked sometime around this this time last year to our foster adoptive parents. We we did a training on what is grief, um, and something that I got out of that Are you familiar with, probably the six R's instead of the five stages of grief, so that was something that was on my mind, too, when we started this.

Laura:

So I can't rattle that off the top of my head. I was going to say it's been a while. Somebody remind me.

Julie:

Do you want me to Google it? Yeah, but I can't read it remember. Can't read it remember.

Laura:

I can read it you can't read oh no, I'm so far. I'm so proud of you there you go.

Sam:

Anything is possible. Anything is possible. Um, okay, I think these these are probably. It so um, most people are familiar with the five stages of grief. What people don't normally recognize is that was that phrase, that whatever was coined because for somebody who was um like a terminal illness dying, because for somebody who was um like a terminal illness dying. Yeah, so somebody who was dying.

Julie:

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Yeah, yep, absolutely.

Sam:

So, um, I like that too, if people want to explore that a little bit more, because that really changed, changed my thinking on. There is a process of grief, there's an end near right, and when that end didn't come, I'm like, well, what is this?

Laura:

yeah, what are we doing? What am I?

Sam:

supposed to be doing so. When I heard about the six r's, that really helped me reframe a lot, so I'll read these out and then you can chime in. But one is recognize the loss. Two react to the separation. Three recollect and re-experience. Four relinquish old attachments. Five readjust. Six reinvent. That doesn't sound easy. No, I don't like that. No, I don't think that this is maybe um, the the vision to this, and I'm looking at it. You all are not, but it's a road map with no end.

Laura:

Yeah, I was just thinking to myself how that doesn't sound like there would be an end to one to begin the next um, and so for somebody who's doing some work through through grief, that's probably something that they've been told of of.

Sam:

There's no right way to grieve. There's no wrong way to grieve. There's no, there's no process. I mean, there is somewhat of a brain functioning process that happens, but there's no. Step one, step two, step three.

Julie:

And people want that, people crave that. Yeah, they definitely do and they're heartbroken when they leave and I say I can't give you that and it's going to change every single year. Right, I mean my kid's getting ready to graduate, yeah, and his brother's not here. I mean my kid's getting ready to graduate, yeah, and his brother's not here. I mean I feel differently about that than I did when he was in kindergarten, right, yeah, so it's different. I mean you have to revisit all of those stages as you grow and develop.

Sam:

Well, and that's something we I think we talked about it maybe in your episode of just how grief changes. Oh yeah, and I don't want to get too off topic so I'm not writing that back in but, uh, grief changes. There's some days that maybe I'm not feeling my grief and there's other days that it's really heavy. Um, and I've been thankful enough that I'm able to recognize that. One. Two, I work in a space and surround my people, surround myself with people who understand that some days are just heavier.

Laura:

Yeah, I think it's important, as I wouldn't call myself an outsider to grief, but the type of grief that maybe you guys have experienced, with loss of a child and stuff um it's. It would be easier for to look at it like it's a vicious cycle. Yes, it's a cycle and then you're going to constantly go through it, but it doesn't have to be a vicious cycle. You know you're in the remembrance and there can be joy, there can be things that come through there that are not a bad thing.

Sam:

So, yes, it's something that you deal with every day and you have to go through all the motions, but it doesn't have to be vicious I like that and I think my mind just went to um and again I said I wasn't going to bring in my experiences, but here I am. But how could you? How?

Sam:

could I not but the movie inside out. Yeah, I am a 32 year old woman who balls through that movie because the whole, you know, sadness and joy can exist at the same time, and not to equate grief with sadness, because it's not always sad, um. But I think realizing the whole basis of that is recognizing that two emotions can exist at one time. Right, and that's okay, that's normal, um, and so I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, that's normal of everything of everything, yeah, of everything.

Laura:

It's hard because people like black and white. You know they like to know one thing or the other.

Julie:

Yeah, yeah, and I think theoretically, if we're talking theory, I think that you know right now, the the theory that we use most is the dual process model of grief, and what that means is exactly what you all are talking about. You know, you have to function. So in order to function, I can't be in my grief right now, you know, but then there's other times when it hits me like a brick wall right, and so being able to flip-flop back and forth between those two are imperative, because if we live in functioning, then we aren't addressing the grief, but if we live with the grief, then we're not functioning Right, and so it's important to be able to do both and be able to move in between those two different processes of grief.

Laura:

I feel like the key thing you said, out of everything you just said, was move People. Get stuck, yeah, and that must be where therapy and such comes in.

Julie:

That's right. That's right, absolutely yeah.

Sam:

We'll revisit that in may when it's mental health awareness it's okay to have a therapist yeah, highly recommend. But that's kind of why I invited you, because you you have created a name for yourself in this community of the grief expert I mean I, I knew of you before I joined and started with Steps for Samuel, and so when somebody was like I mean my therapist was like there's this event?

Laura:

with McCoy.

Sam:

Counseling, Julie McCoy, and I was like I know that name. So, all that to say, you have created a name for yourself as a grief expert in the field that we work in. Grief comes up a lot and your name gets thrown out there.

Sam:

So I think thank you, that means a lot yeah thank you, um, that's why I invited you, because I want you to help steer this conversation in what maybe we should be talking about, and helping us understand, because I'm not an expert in grief, um, and I can't always articulate what maybe I want to say either. So, um, helping god through that process. Where do we want to wrap back to the six hours? Yeah, um, is there anything more you want to say on those six hours or the five stages, or any of that?

Sam:

um, I don't think so necessarily okay, I think just people being aware of that um will be helpful. Um, the main thing that I'll maybe want to start talking with, and we can talk a little bit more about grief and foster care um, but we're coming upon the holidays me.

Laura:

Do you know about grief and foster care.

Julie:

I worked at NEC over 10 years okay.

Laura:

I don't know what you know, so I'm just like is that gonna be only me?

Sam:

no, okay no good, so I have a couple people around this table.

Sam:

Um, I've only had one cup of coffee today oh so it's already past noon, I know, all right, um, so with holidays coming up, um, I think the point I want to make is just the normalization of grief and that it's okay that if your grief seems to start over or seems to be heavier around this time of year or it's not the same as it was last year, I think that's really the point I want to make of that and that can apply to to anybody, whether you're in foster care or not. But I do think there is maybe an extra I don't know extra something of those who who have children in foster care around the holidays.

Laura:

It's hard for them. The grief extends to them specifically, I feel like during the holidays- and I think this brings up something called disenfranchised grief.

Julie:

I don't know if y'all are familiar with that term or not. Please describe it. Okay, it's fine. Okay. So, um, mine and sam's experience experience um is stigmatized but recognized, right? So people know that it happened, they know it's a big deal, but they don't necessarily want to talk to us about it. Oh yeah, right, your grief is a little different because you knew you only had this child for a short time get that a lot.

Laura:

You signed up for this. That's what you signed up for this.

Julie:

You knew this was going to happen and so it's hard for you, i'm'm sure and you can speak to that to hear those unhelpful things that people say around grief.

Laura:

Yeah, definitely I have been very fortunate that all my children have stayed, but that doesn't mean that I haven't suffered grief or watched them suffer grief in some way suffering grief or watch them suffer grief in some way. You know, I feel like I was thinking on the way here about what kind of insight that I had to offer to this conversation and being is that my children are all still with me. The grief that I suffer is for their parents and I carry that for them gladly. Now, where they don't understand, there will come a time when they realize what's happened and they'll have to take that on. So I was just thinking about how so many people in the foster care community and in the system you know they're asking you for suggestions to make it better, make it faster, make it this, whatever.

Laura:

But for me, I have this unique view of seeing the processes and the time things take is to give the parents every opportunity to be able to reconcile their family and when it doesn't happen, that grief is heavy.

Laura:

It's great, it's heavy for the system, it's heavy for the system, it's heavy for the kids, it's heavy for the parents. Like, what are the chances that a parent is going to go on after losing their children to become a successful member of society. So I just wanted to address that a little bit and not necessarily address it, but just acknowledge it. I think that we get caught up in the helping part, which is obviously needed and very important, but the heart being open to that grief for the parents and feeling that with them, I mean, I think it gives you a unique way to suffer with, along with your children, like I think that me feeling that and carrying that for them will help me and help them understand once they get older and that it wasn't that we didn't care. It's not. Nobody overlooked that. You know. We know it was important. Nobody swept that part of it under the rug and we carried it and we're here to help you manage that.

Sam:

It didn't make any sense, it did, it did. Yeah, I think thank you for sharing that perspective, because those who haven't fostered again, this whole podcast exists to help, support, support, and so maybe people aren't in the throes of fostering, but maybe they know somebody who is, and so helping them understand that, um, just the the complexity of grief within um, just because I carry it well doesn't mean it isn't heavy and just because your kids may, maybe they don't understand right now, no, they don't.

Sam:

But because they're young, but they will. But maybe they understand more than we are recognizing, because of behaviors too, and so helping a family member understand that I mean that's. That's a whole other episode too. But you know, there might be a reason for some of this behavior around this time. So where do we go from there?

Julie:

Well, I know, you know, with foster care, you know, looking at it from a therapist, slash treatment director position versus a parent, necessarily, you know kids go through placement disruptions and it's not a good fit in the home. And you know, what did I do or not do for this child that they disrupted in my home? Like that's very personal, I would assume. I mean I don't know, but I've heard parents say that. Personal, I would assume I mean I don't know, but I've heard parents say that, um, what could I have done to to make this placement better? And being open to that feedback is critical. I mean you're a good foster mom. Thank you for that, because don't know about that.

Julie:

You appreciate it they're happy and healthy and not disrupting.

Laura:

It sounds like I guess for me, a part of my grief is that I constantly feel like I'm not doing them enough. I'm not like if subconsciously I feel that way. Consciously I'm aware that I am doing everything I can and the fact that I care means something, but I don't always fully absorb that and I always feel like their parents could have done a better job, which I understand, that obviously they're in my care for a reason and that their parents weren't able to do that better job right now. But I guess I just always feel like I'm lacking, like they're missing out, and it's not my fault, but sometimes it feels. I feel it. I don't know that's.

Julie:

You can't explain everything, you know, you just well I made a sign for one of my therapists office, julie griffin, certified grief recovery specialist. Amazing and um on it. I said if you, if you worry about caring enough, you probably are you, yeah, so I think that's a good nugget for you to remember.

Laura:

Thanks, thanks for that. Absolutely. I do have, sam, a specific story that we won't name names. That has to do with the holiday and grief and foster care. So I think it was the first christmas when I had my first placement and we were doing not so many in-person visits because we were kind of struggling with that, but we had phone calls and so they were at a certain time at a certain place and a certain phone number and it was supervised and all the things. But on the holiday, um, their mom really wanted to call them and so the caseworker let me know hey, mom really wants to talk to them. Just find out if the boys want to. I'm not going to force them to just find out if they want to.

Laura:

So my older one he's like, you know, not really and my younger one, on his own, decided he didn't want to talk to his mom. But after he decided he never said he regretted his decision, but we had the worst day ever. He was suffering from some severe grief and just he did not know he was four, he did not know how to handle the fact that he made that choice and you know he thought he was doing what was best for him at that time but he did not know how to handle the fact that he made that choice. And you know he thought he was doing what was best for him at that time but he did not know how to process that and he went into tantrum mode for hours. It was something to be accomplished to make it through that day.

Laura:

Thankfully the holidays have gotten a little easier every year. But I think because of that that we don't like pump the holidays off really big anymore because it's a big deal to them and they can't help it. There's always that little thing. So we definitely find joy in the holidays and we find our own traditions and things like that. But we don't make it as big as some people might, because when you do that it makes it sting on the other side pretty hard. Analyze that.

Julie:

Have you adopted yours?

Laura:

I have six kids that are adopted, yeah. That was my first one and two that I adopted. That was my second one, I probably shouldn't have mentioned that. Oh, you didn't get my. I guess you should listen to the podcast. This might be a Laura Every time I join anything, it always turns out to be about me, and I'm so sorry. It's because I like to share.

Sam:

I'm sorry. Yes, she has six children.

Julie:

Wow.

Laura:

The Gen Republic's going to know more about me than I know about myself.

Sam:

Well, I invited you into this conversation because I do value some of the things that you've said and your insight. Some of them, some of them, yeah, some of them. I really appreciate that, thank you.

Sam:

And you know everybody's story is different and I've talked with other people, one of again, when I'm thinking about what might be helpful. Somebody contacted me about doing some type of talking around grief because of a disruption that was the big thing in their home. They had a disruption and now they're feeling it, and so how do we move on? What do we do? Do we shut our house, did they say?

Laura:

whether the disruption was because the kid was going back to parent or if something else happened?

Sam:

I actually don't know. I actually don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't want to speak to my assumptions because I could be completely wrong, but that's a good point. And did something happen, or did they Well?

Laura:

because, like a disruption when they're going back to their parent or to another relative, it's like planned, you know it's coming. There's a process and they ease into it so that you can kind of get on that mental level, and so can the kid. But if there was like a disruption where something happened with a kid and they had to be removed abruptly, that's when I think disruption, that's what I think about yeah, I think that's probably just from context clues.

Sam:

Yeah, I think that's probably. Probably what they were experiencing is the disruption because something happened and they had to be removed. Good point of even that's a two-sided thing over there.

Laura:

I mean, it is A lot of times you feel like you failed. If that occurs, usually it occurs because some type of behavior is putting people and the family at risk or something like that's happened and you feel like you failed. Sometimes you have to electively decide to disrupt your placement and just admitting that you can't handle something is the worst. I know many people that went through that, that still grieve that today Because they have that place in their heart for that little child, but they just couldn't manage it. Yeah.

Julie:

So, when you have the disruptions, I think it is important to say, if I could have done better, I would have done better If you could have. You would have done better if you could, you would have. Um, you did everything you could for that child and you know, we don't know what's going to happen 20 years from now when they're out of care. Right?

Julie:

I mean they may think back on that, on that home, you may have made a huge difference and not know it exactly. Maybe you taught them that they can still be loved even when they're being naughty. I'm frustrated with you, but I still love you. I mean, if that's the message you're giving, and you know relationships, you know in death in, you know relationships. I tell people in counseling all the time, relationships don't end, they just change, right? So, no matter what your belief is about the afterlife, of course we all have our own beliefs, no matter what those are.

Julie:

Um, the relationship is different than it was and some people believe that, you know, our loved ones are in heaven and we can still have relationships with them in a much different way, right, um? But you know, some people get signs. That's part of a relationship, um, you know, I think just seeing how you can make that relationship different. So this child goes home, let's say, are you allowed to still have a relationship with them? I'd love to send them a christmas card. I'd love to, you know, see them on their birthday weekend. You know, being able to maintain those just because they're not living with you doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with them, especially if the relationship's good with the bio parents right.

Sam:

Yeah, I I'm gonna go off on a tangent, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking what not to say to those who are grieving, and something that's. And I could be wrong. People might like this, but I feel like I'm just. I feel like you have a unique perspective of this.

Sam:

You know, I've been I journal, I've, I'm doing, I'm doing some work on myself, okay, but grief people say grief is love with no place to go. Okay, and that kind of grinds my gears because it's going to a significant it's going to some place my love is still going um, and so, even though my relationship has changed, doesn't mean that I've stopped loving the person who's no longer in my home, absolutely or no longer in my life. I mean, I'm no longer seeing every day like there still could be love.

Laura:

I don't think that's a tangent. I think that you know.

Julie:

I think it's beautiful, it's pretty on subject right there.

Sam:

Yeah, yeah, sometimes I have nuggets of wisdom. Yes, you do.

Laura:

I think the part that changes is just that physical baby.

Sam:

Why are we?

Laura:

going to do this. Sam, me and Sam like to sit in the office every now and then and I just make her cry and then she feels better. I think I'm not really sure how it really goes. I don't know, I just my heart feels.

Laura:

I think it's important that, whether Sam can speak to it or not, or you, I think it's important to recognize that when you don't know what to say, it doesn't mean you have to go away. You can just tell somebody I don't know what to say, and that's okay. You just hold space with them, and everyone needs that, no matter what they're going through. They need someone to just listen when you're having a hard day and it seems like for everyone else it's history, it happened so many years ago and they don't want to bring it up, but for you it's always there and sometimes you need to talk about it, sometimes you need to relive it, sometimes you need to just get it off your chest how heavy it is for you, and sometimes you might feel like a burden because you're always carrying this around with you and everyone else seems to have forgotten.

Laura:

I think it's just important for the general public to realize that it's okay to not to know what to say. Just don't leave them. Just because you're not sure how to handle it doesn't mean you should leave them behind and not invite them to things anymore because it might hurt their feelings or whatever. Like, let them be the judge. If they're important to you, include them. That's a significant thing I've learned just from being in your presence, sam, and just I feel like in general it's very important.

Sam:

Sorry, I didn't intend this to be a therapy session.

Laura:

I'm the therapist here, in case you guys didn't know Okay.

Sam:

While all of this is great conversation, I do want to write it back in a little bit, and I'm just talking out loud at this point.

Laura:

Okay, how do we write it back in? I bit, and I'm just talking out loud at this point. Okay, how do I feel like that? You should definitely share that, because just because you were are not in a space to say that to people doesn't mean they don't need to hear it. I think that's very important and I think that's one thing I really have carried from experiencing. Your experience with you is that that's one thing that hurt the worst. That's something that you grieve right along with the loss. It's the loss of your friendships and the way.

Julie:

things have changed in that way, and I think that's the definition of disenfranchised.

Sam:

Yeah, now we know, and now we know, and now we yeah, because I, I think you know, if somebody's in your home for a significant period of time and now, now they're not, for whatever reason, like it's a, it's okay to ask, it's okay to bring them up, right, and if it's not, then they'll let you know, like right.

Laura:

I almost feel like it fostering or, like you said, with any loss or change in that way, with someone missing, you might come to this point where you feel like was it all just a dream? And when somebody mentions it it reminds you that that was real and that really happened and your feelings are valid. So I think that's especially important in the fostering world, in our support groups and things we always ask you know, have you heard anything about so? And so you know how are they doing, how are you doing? We always acknowledge that in that way, so why wouldn't we in other ways grief in our life?

Julie:

and I think, just remembering them right. So you know, we have a whole roll, a row of candles going down our thanksgiving table right, one for my mom, one for my husband's dad, one for samuel. I mean it just goes, it's like a whole row of candles. And so I mean, if you have foster kids who you would like to remember at thanksgiving right, they don't have to be dead to be remembered maybe right, that's their spirit, like recognize that they are part of your family.

Laura:

I agree I think also with pictures, like I know other people sometimes become uncomfortable when they see pictures of a lost loved one. But also people question on birthday card. I got birthday cards like christmas card you send out with family pictures for us, no matter what picture we were taking, no matter if we knew for sure this kid was going to be with us forever. We always included whatever our family looked like at that time and I think I mean that's another part so that when the grief comes, if the grief comes, you have ways to hold on to the memories you made with them and hopefully you've shared that with the child and they have that too you know, to spark a memory in them.

Laura:

But I feel like in fostering overall, as you mentioned, we don't know the impact that we're making way down the road, but I mean, we are just here to be the best we can for a child, for whatever time that we get them, you can make a significant impact to just be that one person that cares do they still do life books.

Sam:

Yes, that's what I was going to bring up.

Laura:

Next was a life book, have a shelf in my closet that just collapsed full of all my children's life books.

Laura:

It's a real thing I promise you I enjoyed life books. It's hard once you have multiples, though, to keep up, so my thing was I was just constantly taking picture, just as if it was my own child. Oh, they did this different, this new. It doesn't have to be something that's super significant to the masses your own child you commonly take pictures of, so you would do the same thing for them. Now, do you print every single picture? Well, for the first one, yes. The next one, no. Like my first ones, like there might be a scrapbook page here, there. And then I bought pages for the pictures, like they held five, four by sixes on each side, and then I started printing out every picture I had of them in my phone. And then I'm like my shelf just collapsed. What am I doing? Like I could take all the pictures but maybe not print every single facial expression they ever made in their lives. But yeah, um, I actually had a parent.

Laura:

I can't remember when this happened or who it was or what happened. I think it was one of my. Well, when I say my, one of the biological variants of one of my children asked whenever tpr happened can I have the life book? They thought that that life book was made for them. Yeah, wow and wow. I was also like wow, I, I thought about it. I was like I wonder if that should be a thing. Not to that extent as a whole life book.

Sam:

I'm on that side right now. As I'm thinking of this, I'm like who is the life book going to? Who is the life book for? But okay, it's for the child, but that's something to explore. It's interesting, right, because I mean it's going to be different in every situation and some that might not be a possibility, so you know, so there's.

Laura:

But if we're talking about their grief too, and I mean yeah, every person is important on every side, no matter what they've done, what they've been through or how they might have failed in some ways, that doesn't make them less of a human being. It really doesn't. And I think my I mean you experience as a foster parent a lot of times bio parents might creep your Facebook or whatever and they take pictures that the caseworker gave them and post them as if they were their own and that seems like you might be crossing a line. But at the same time you know they just want to have memories too and they, you know they made that child, so when they look at them, that's them.

Laura:

It's hard with the like open and closed adoption, this and that. So I honestly don't know what I have. I couldn't tell you. I know that I don't have contact with any of my biological parents, but I feel like if any of them had a good relationship with me or tried on their own part that I might be open to it and it was my understanding, that was kind of up to my discretion, but we just never came across that. I don't know.

Julie:

Well, I think the LifeBooks are for foster children and that's our goal. Oh, they are, yeah, right, and so I don't guess anybody's ever thought beyond that, like what happens to LifeBook if they are adopted?

Laura:

Well, you've already got all that stuff.

Julie:

Yeah, thought beyond that, like what happens to life book if they are adopted? Well, you've already got all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, so why would you need?

Laura:

the, the life book, if they're adopted, I mean unless they've been in care a long time.

Laura:

Yeah, right, my kids have been in care, okay, and then also, like in your life book you're supposed to include any pictures that there was from their past. So like we would print out and I have pictures of their bio, parents and stuff in their life books because I want my kids to be able to look back and be like this is where I came from, whether it's just a face in a book for me. Like I said, it's important for me to show my kids that I feel like their parents were important. I don't ever want to make them feel like they weren't important as human beings. Just because the things didn't work out in the way that they maybe should have, could have, would have, doesn't mean they weren't important, because without them I wouldn't have my kids I think it's important to have a good emotional boundaries, though, too.

Julie:

I mean, you can't be responsible for everybody's grief, right?

Laura:

That's true, that's true.

Julie:

I have a hard time with that one. I mean you're managing yours, you're managing their child's grief, and I mean who's responsible for the bio parents? I mean I have empathy, of course, right, but I mean there has to be an end for you.

Laura:

I feel like for me when we were in the thick of it. Now it's been a couple years. My youngest adopted child is three now. So when we were in the thick of it I had more separation from the biological parents emotionally, because you just have to, because you have to get business done. You know you have to have that methodical approach to it sometimes, not let things get to you. Mine is more comes on as reflection these days because I think about them. I wonder how are they doing? Is there a chance they might ever recover to what could have been or have some kind of fulfilling life? I don't know. I don't know any parents that have had their children removed and are still okay. I have no clue, but I can imagine I would be okay. I don't know. It's just a reflection thing that I've had a lot of years to just kind of think about. I don't know.

Julie:

I think, leaning into the uncertainty and the acceptance of never knowing.

Laura:

Yeah.

Julie:

That's a hard one. I can't imagine I'm not there yet. I'm sure you are, that's hard.

Laura:

That's really hard. My heart breaks because one of my children's possibly one of their parents, has passed and we never got confirmation of whether that was a case or not and I always held on to this hope, like when they become of age and they're interested, that they might be able to connect with their biological parents, just ask some questions or anything. And the fact that they won't be able to do that possibly that really hurt me, for I don't know why, exactly like that would hurt me for a while, hurt me worse than I think it hurt the children that it involved, that you know, they know about the situation and that it might be the case, but I don't know. There's a whole nother grief just stings here and there it's not always expected yeah.

Sam:

So in the interest of um, um, you can, you can exchange insurance cards later and charge for that. But in the interest of moving along, I am going to change the subject just a little bit. Uh, while I appreciate all that conversation and that is very helpful, um, I have so many things to say to you but I'm just not. It's on record right now. Um, so I want to talk a little bit about. You know, during adoption awareness month, we're we're doing a a thing of say this, not that, and so I kind of want to tie that into into this, of what people have said, what they should say.

Laura:

I mean, I've had my own experiences, but if we I want to hear from you all what do you have?

Sam:

If you have any examples of that that you would like to throw out there.

Julie:

Well, from a death perspective or a foster perspective, I think Well, from a death perspective or a foster perspective.

Laura:

I think From a gone perspective.

Sam:

My initial reaction is can we separate? But you're saying, maybe we can.

Julie:

Well, but you're saying maybe we can Well. So if someone says at a funeral they're with God, now, yeah, let's hope the foster child is not with God. Let's hope they're back with their parents.

Laura:

Yeah, Right, okay, so I think we can separate like that parents, yeah right, okay.

Julie:

So I think we can separate like that um, he's in, he or she is in a better place, um well, heaven versus right back home, better than my house, or better than the home they were in before they came to my house, like it just opens up a whole thing in your head um, you can have more kids versus you can get more kids from the state. I mean, that's similar, yeah, that's very similar. Uh, but don't, don't say any of those things.

Sam:

Yeah, well, I was going to say, you know, yeah, I've experienced all of those, and experienced even I mean I think I even brought some of that into when I first started talking about how people start the adoption journey. But you know, that's something that's been said to us of, well, you can just adopt now.

Laura:

You can just adopt, now that's. You can just foster. Now that's not going to take the place of um, so I have one that's specific to fostering. Okay, sorry, that's something. If you have a kid that's went back to their family, people that are supporting you automatically will say sorry. I don't feel like that's a good thing for me. I feel like they should try to realize that the point of foster care is to reunite, but most people don't dig that deep. I don't know. I mean, I get it. Their hearts are in the right place.

Julie:

But for all the comments people say their hearts are usually in the right place.

Sam:

It makes us mad. They have no idea how that feels for us.

Julie:

I'm lost in it.

Sam:

You don't really know how to react unless you've been through it. Yeah, and even then their experience is different. So you still might not be able to react, because my loss is different from your loss. And what I consider loss, you might not consider loss. What I consider grief, you might not consider loss. What I consider grief, you might not consider grief. And so I think maybe that's the baseline of we just got to be a little bit more understanding of everybody and giving grace both ways of. You know, I'm an altruist in the fact that I think all people try to be good, like we're initially. I think we're good. I don't think we ever say anything with ill intention. Now, how I might interpret what they've said to me might be a different story.

Sam:

That's on you.

Laura:

But maybe just being open to. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it's not, sometimes you'd be just talking to a brick wall. But if somebody says something that you're taking personally, of course that is on you how you internalize that, but maybe you could be in a headspace where you just tell them right on the spot. That's what I was gonna say maybe. That's not the best way to say. I understand what you're saying, but maybe that it's just not really coming across the way you plan for it to. I don't know.

Julie:

My mom had a really long illness and when she passed away, if one person said it, a hundred people said it. At least she's not in pain anymore. Yeah, I mean, that's a common thing, absolutely. And I would say to them tell me a story about her. Yeah, and this woman came in the funeral home and she said your mama gave the best mammograms. I don't know if I will have another mammogram now that she's gone and I get exactly what you all did in the middle of the funeral home good, do you see?

Julie:

how different, yeah. Yeah, it's just amazing. People don't understand. They don't know what to do, so they, they just say the things they've always said. Yep, let's say something different, guys. Somebody else said your mom made the best sweet tea when we were growing up.

Julie:

, but with foster care.

Julie:

Tell me a story about him. Yeah, yeah, for real. What jimmy went back to his parents. Tell me a story about him. Tell me the funniest thing you remember about him, right? Wouldn't that feel good to have him honored like that?

Sam:

definitely yeah, I think that's a I don't know, that's just something that we're in a in a changing world and I think we're at a point now where we've just got to realize we've got to change the way we think and change the way we talk, sometimes absolutely. Um, and we've got to change the way we think and change the way we talk, sometimes Absolutely, and we've got to be open to that one.

Laura:

Yeah, that's harder than it looks.

Sam:

That's harder than it looks, but I think that's maybe the premise of some of this too is we've just got to look at things a little differently look at things a little differently.

Laura:

I think whenever, um, I would encounter a person who's had a child go back, I would ask them how do we feel? Oh, that's news, not. It's good, it's not bad. How are we feeling about that? Let the person that you're trying to comfort tell you what you know. How are they feeling? That's what you're ultimately trying to achieve is to comfort them and see how they're doing. That's good, that's news. It is news. I like that. That's news.

Sam:

So, um, do you want to throw out maybe some resources or books, websites, anything you've come across that might be helpful to people who are I don't know, that's broad, too Many people, many people.

Laura:

Hmm, what is the goal of that? Is this for adoption awareness? I don't know what this is for at this point. If it is, then but okay, maybe.

Sam:

So you have some experience with foster care, and so do you, but is there any tangible thing that people could look at of maybe a book recommendation about the grief in the foster care system?

Julie:

I have a book called when children grieve by john james and russell friedman. Um, I think that that would be a good resource, because a lot of times children don't actively grieve and it's the space we create for them that helps them do that right. Yeah, that's good, um, when when we grieve openly and appropriately in front of our children, it teaches them that they can grieve openly and appropriately in front of us, right? So if they come in and we're crying, no matter the reason, and they say what's wrong, mommy, and you say nothing and you wipe your face off and you go make a turkey sandwich, what have you just taught them, right? But if you say I'm really sad because of x, y and z, then when they are sad, they're going to be able to tell you. So, if you're able.

Julie:

You know that's part of this book um, being able to allow that space, and they model us right so if they're sad and they want to talk about their biological parents, that allows them to know that they can do that, and a lot more listening than talking.

Laura:

Yeah.

Julie:

That's hard to do because we want to fix it and for some reason we think words do that.

Laura:

Yeah, yeah.

Julie:

And a lot of times it doesn't Illusion.

Sam:

I've started. When people come to me and they just want to chat, I'm like okay, do you want me to fix it or do you just want me to hold space for you? I love that because I might try to. I'm a fixer, that's my personality. I want to fix things for people, and so I'll find myself trying to fix things. I've said it to you all, like I don't really know what you want me to do about that, and I'm not sarcastic when I say that, like, what do you want me to do and I think that that's okay to say too of when your kids come to you, or when somebody who has been fostering and adopting, or what have you, when they come to you to talk to you about these things, recognizing what their goal of?

Laura:

that is Most of the time. We just need a hug. Pretty much so it turns out. I may not understand what you're going through, but I understand that you're going through something and I'm here, that's pretty much it.

Julie:

And you know, including those bio parent memories are important, right? Um, you know it's Christmas EU and they're upset and they're, you know, thinking about their bio mom and you say, well, what kind of cookies did mom used to make you? Yeah, yeah. Oh, she's like the best chocolate chip cookies. Well, I don't know, I don't have mom's recipe, but I know where we can get some chocolate chip cookies to make, right, right. So again, it's different. We, we have that relationship with bio mom through these cookies. Yeah, so it's different, not gone.

Sam:

Yeah, it's different, not gone. Maybe I should start a series in this of like t-shirt quotes. Yes I was. This is off topic, but I was reading slash listening to matthew mcconaughey's um biography and he has something where he calls bumper sticker moments, and so he pulls that out, like, okay, I like that.

Sam:

Yeah, I could take that on. Yeah, take that on, all right. Well, we are approaching um an hour time and, while I do want we can continue however we want, I do want to be respectful of time and uh, uh, is there anything? Maybe, when I asked you to come here, is there anything that popped in your mind that you're like oh, we need to talk about this.

Julie:

Not exactly, I was just going to let you, let you drive.

Sam:

Sometimes, when I drive, we don't have a destination.

Laura:

Not learned that the hard way?

Sam:

You know I'm a pretty open person, but what I found in my experience is just, we all okay, I'm a Brene Brown fan, imagine that that's been thrown out If you don't know that about me, now you do but we all long for connection. We are all wanting to connect to one another some way somehow, and so when we share our experiences, we realize we're not alone in those, and that's universal in whatever experience we're going through. I mean, what we do is we do parenting support and a lot of the times, just having somebody else say my kid is throwing a fit because they don't want to eat mashed potatoes either, is okay. My kid is acting out because they didn't get to go to their supervisor's visit today. Yeah, yeah, my kid is acting out because somebody broke their toy that they were able to bring from their other home, you know.

Sam:

So, I think, just being open to sharing with one another, and if you say the wrong thing, then you say the wrong thing and you apologize and move on. Yeah, I'm not going to get it all right. People are going to say things to me that I'm like I didn't take that the right way. Um, but it's okay. We're human, we're this is our first time on this planet, right like we're all trying to my first go around on this, um.

Julie:

so I think it's okay to just be open with people and Well, something else that came to mind the difference in death grief and foster grief is one thing that we say in death grief. Is that it that we shouldn't replace the loss Okay, the loss okay. So when you're seven years old and your dog gets hit by a car and you come in crying, your dad says what it's okay, we can get another one it's okay, we can get another dog and that's supposed to make you feel better, so we've replaced the loss.

Laura:

That doesn't work right right, so in foster care it's hard, right, because you have to be ready for that next one to come. That's right. Pull yourself together and get ready for the next one. That's a good point. One thing that I would say is that they always encourage us to be aware of our health our physical, mental, emotional health and we're encouraged that if we have a hard break, like we take a little time off Good, and it's hard because you know, if you're a foster parent, generally you have a heart to help and you want to get in there and you want to do it. But we're encouraged to take a little time that's great Off Just to heal from all the things before you get back in there and do it again.

Sam:

I've said this before and I think I'm a broken record in some of my episodes, but if you've never listened to anything else, you've not heard this before. But it's the whole oxygen mask on the airplane.

Sam:

You've got to take care of yourself first and it's okay to do that absolutely. That's something I've learned over the past little bit is I don't have the capacity for that today doesn't mean stop asking me right, exactly, that's the thing but today I don't have the capacity for that yeah, that's a tomorrow problem, yep and so, looking at it from the parent's side, taking that time off well, the kids don't get to do that.

Julie:

And so here I come in and I'm playing your mommy Mm-hmm, I'm not trying to replace your mommy baby Right. Yeah, that's significant, but I don't know that parents say that to kids, maybe they do.

Laura:

Foster parents, I mean, I do.

Julie:

Okay, I mean I do, but okay, who am I? I'm just my first.

Sam:

as kids get older, though, right when that, when you have a 14 year old boy, is a foster mom, I'm gonna say to a 14 year old boy honey, I'm not trying to replace your mom yeah, yeah, it's hard I don't know what, where I was talking about this, but um, and it might have been you, I don't remember, but somebody was talking about when foster care, when when children call their foster mom, mom, right, well, it's because all the other kids in the home are doing that sometimes it doesn't it doesn't mean that you're replacing their mom, that's right, or that they're replacing their mom in their mind.

Sam:

That's just what they want to call you at this point in time. So I think, changing our understanding of that too, it's okay if you call both of us mom, definitely as long as you know that I know that I'm not replacing your mom.

Julie:

As long as you know that I know that I know, yeah, that I'm not replacing your mom.

Laura:

Yeah, as long as you know that, I know as long as you know, we know, we know. See mine, like I had four and eight, and then after that I had three months, 18 months, six months, two days old. So all my littles have always called me mom.

Laura:

But, my big ones. They started out calling me Laura and there was a point where the younger one just naturally started calling me mom and the older one at one point, when we had come across okay, we are going to adopt you. I was like, okay, bud, we're just, this is how it's going to be. You don't have to, but let's try this, let's just see how it feels, type of thing.

Julie:

And then from there, I mean it, it just was, and I think he had a hard time letting go of that too, but but I think, giving him that permission too, to go from laura to mom, because that's a big jump, it is a big jump, it's very vulnerable right, I'm being very vulnerable by even thinking about calling you mom when I never have before right? Yeah, because you may reject me.

Laura:

So good for you I could start a whole nother conversation on that one isn't there what you said?

Sam:

you might not know this, I might have to do a little bit of googling, but something called permission to grieve, like a book or something called permission to grieve. I don't know about a book. Well, maybe I'll write it. Okay, cool, I love it, I'll read it. I, yeah, I think not that you, not that you need permission to grieve sometimes you do but sometimes you do sometimes you feel like I can't break down right now because everybody else needs me. Yeah, I do.

Julie:

That's another myth of grief. Be strong for others, be strong for others, but sometimes seeing someone else break down about the same thing you're breaking down about is unity. I don't want you to be strong. I want you to come down in these pits with me.

Laura:

Sam, do you see her? I'm just kidding I don't. Oh, maybe you should Let me put that in there, so that way we can be equal. We're in a role relationship now. Thank, you.

Laura:

with her. Okay, that's off the record.

Sam:

hope that we have accomplished what I what I said.

Sam:

but I have to believe that somebody needs to hear it right and that whatever I'm talking about is helpful to somebody, and if it's not, guess what, they can turn it off like. It's okay, if you don't want to listen to me talk anymore, um, I won't be offended by that, but, um, I'll list some some of these resources that we've talked about. We might have something where we we come back and approach this topic a little differently. Um, or continue on. I I want people who are listening to to have the space to reach out. Um, the whole point of this is to support and if I don't know the answer, which I likely don't I will find the answer or find somebody who can relate to what you're going through.

Laura:

So so so you can ask her the questions, like you did to me Rapid fire.

Sam:

You said I do. I do so in order, let me just say so one more time. Okay, oh, I'm going to take my medicine, okay, so I'd like to end an episode, not that this is not a light note, but I do like to end an episode just kind of in a funny time, and so I'd have some rapid fire questions, don't think just to answer nothing too personal, but I think I know this one what is your go-to drink?

Julie:

um diet coke because it's sitting in front of me yeah, do you have, do you like coffee? I was gonna say, uh, taco, tuesday, margarita is what I was. But yes, I like coffee.

Sam:

Yes, coffee is excellent um, in next week's episode, .undefined you're always carrying with you or have nearby? Not your phone, not your wallet?

Julie:

Does that count? Yeah, yeah, like it's all on my phone. Yeah, it's gotta be around it's gotta be around that's a tide pin, a tide pin. I have a tide pin in my little football bag, yeah um?

Laura:

what else do we want to ask?

Sam:

what if you, if you do binge watch shows? Are you currently binge watching anything? I'm not a huge tv person what about? Um, this is where my mind just went. I always restart like gilmore girls or something in the fall. Is there anything, as we're approaching fall winter season, that you, you do?

Julie:

I would watch elf a hundred times over no, please, I don't like elf either.

Sam:

No, you're kidding. That's why we connect.

Laura:

Oh, I can't do it how about the hangover?

Julie:

I can watch. Okay, I can do that one. You don't like that?

Laura:

kind of funny. I mean I can watch it. I like clever things. I don't like, obviously, funny things, I like clever things. That's all. I'm not gonna name any names that I want, I know sorry, so what do I do?

Julie:

year. Nice, oh, wow, okay, and I encourage everyone to do that so that you guys both have non-profits.

Laura:

Is that right? Look at you guys. Do you guys do anything for the holiday, specifically with yours?

Sam:

no, um, no, okay, that was a great question, wasn't it?

Laura:

You know, we're still young. Yeah, you are.

Sam:

So growing. So what about last question I'll ask you on record, I guess Do you have in the car when you're driving home, do you have a guilty pleasure song which just you?

Julie:

say on air.

Sam:

Uh-oh, if you can say it on air, if not, I'll take it out.

Julie:

Close your ears, because I'm sure you're not going to agree with this, but I love Nicki Minaj.

Laura:

Oh really, yeah, I only heard her feature on stuff. I've never heard any of her original work. I don't think. Maybe I have, I don't really know.

Julie:

Music is my thing. Yeah, I love a concert. Concert is my favorite thing in the whole world.

Sam:

What's your favorite concert you've been to, or a dream concert Favorite?

Julie:

concert. Janet Jackson was really good, alabama was really good. Okay, I mean, we have a huge different genre.

Laura:

Yeah.

Julie:

Yeah, yeah, swifty, I'm a Swifty. Thank you for having me.

Sam:

Thank you for swift on here. I appreciate this being on here. I appreciate this If somebody two thoughts. But if somebody wanted to reach out to your counseling services, is it okay if I list McCoy Counseling in this? Absolutely Alright. Well, I will list all of those details in the episode description. Listeners can also call us here and we'll help guide that conversation. So again, thank you.

Julie:

Sounds perfect, thank you.

Sam:

If you've made it to the end. Thank you. I hope that this conversation was meaningful to you in some way. Next episode, I'm sitting down with another person that is close to my heart. Another FEC employee shares her adoption journey and their experience over the last 20 plus years Denise and others from FEC to chat about the myths and the to-dos of adoption. So if you're not following us, please do so so that you'll be notified on all of our latest releases. I promise you're not going to want to miss that conversation. If you have a story you want to share, you want more information about adoption or you just want to get involved, please send us a message on our website or using the link in the description. I really do appreciate you, so thank you and, as always, may your days be filled with joy, sunshine and lots of great tasting coffee. Until next time, thank you.