202. Challenging Gender Roles & Redefining Masculinity w/ Guest: Jack Kammer

What if our understanding of gender inequality is missing half the story? Join us as we welcome Jack Kammer, a social worker, author, and advocate for addressing gender inequality, who challenges us to rethink traditional views on sexism. Jack opens up about his early experiences of being praised for his nurturing abilities as a boy, offering a fresh perspective on how societal norms restrict both men and women. Together, we embark on a journey through Jack's life, from his childhood to his days on the co-ed softball field in Baltimore, revealing how gender roles have evolved and why it's crucial to broaden the discussion to include the challenges faced by men and boys.

Balancing family life and business ownership is no easy feat, and as a 33-year-old gym franchise owner, I share my own journey of setting boundaries to prioritize family over financial success. We tackle the evolving role of fathers, reflecting on historical perspectives where fathers were often sidelined, and discuss the importance of redefining masculinity in today's world. Through personal anecdotes, we explore the significance of building meaningful relationships and the impact they have on leaving a lasting legacy, encouraging listeners to find their own balance within their family dynamics.

The episode concludes with a deep dive into the concept of masculinity and identity. We challenge traditional definitions of what it means to be a "real man," emphasizing the importance of self-definition and mindset shifts for men and boys. Exploring societal perceptions, the dating scene, and even social media engagement, we aim to inspire a new generation of men to break free from conventional expectations and forge their own paths. Connect with Jack through MailFriendlyMedia.com and share this episode to ignite meaningful conversations about masculinity and self-definition within your own circles.

https://malefriendlymedia.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Challenging Gender Inequality in Society
• 14:50 The Father's Legacy and Value System
• 20:56 Exploring Gender Roles and Expectations
• 35:16 Exploring Fatherhood and Masculinity
• 46:31 Reinventing Masculinity and Role Expectations
• 56:36 Defining Masculinity and Legacy

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, it's mindset cafe. We all about that mindset. Gotta stay focused. Now go settle for the last. It's all in your head how you think you manifest. So get ready to rise, cause we bout to be the best. Gotta switch it up. Gotta break the old habits. Get your mind right. Turn your dreams into habits. No negative vibes, only positive thoughts.

Speaker 2: 0:36

What is up guys? Welcome to another episode of the Mindset Cafe podcast. It's your boy, devin, and today we are joined by a special guest, jack Kammer. He is a social worker, he is an author, he is an advocate for deep conversation on gender inequality. So, honestly, this is one of those things with the Mindset Cafe it's going to bring a new perspective to you, it's going to shift your perception, it's going to really invoke, maybe, some conversations around your inner circle. So, without further ado, I just want to welcome you on, jack. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 1:09

Thank you for having me Devin. This is going to be fun.

Speaker 2: 1:12

So let's dive in a little bit. You know what's, what's your story. How did you get into the line of you know, from your social work to your being an author, Like, what was your journey? What was your starting point?

Speaker 1: 1:23

Okay. Well, do you want to go back to when I was a kid, or should we go back to when I was about 30 some years old?

Speaker 2: 1:29

No, let's start from your childhood. You know how was your bring up, and I mean there's some questions in there.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Okay. So we as a society have been trying to address problems caused by sexism. Typically, when we think of sexism, we think of bad things that happen to women, and typically we think of bad things that happen to women caused by men. Because men are sexist, is the idea, and the idea is that only men are sexist and only women are harmed by sexism. Well, I don't think so, not anymore. It's not correct and we need to get past that. You know how it was bad back in the day for a person to say to a little girl who was good at sports gee, susie, you're good at sports, dot, dot, dot for a girl, right? Well, that's not a good thing. To say, dot for a girl, right? Well, that's not a good thing to say. Or gee, susie, you're really good at math, or you're really good at science.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Dot, dot dot for a girl, that's bad. The basic message is this isn't really girl territory. There might even be something wrong with you that you want to be a scientist. Girls don't want to be scientists. What I used to hear as a little boy was gee jack, you're really good with babies, dot dot dot for a boy. And I didn't know anything about sexism, didn't know the word. I was probably this was probably 1959 or something didn't know anything about sexism, but I knew something was up with that. Why would they say I was good with babies, dot dot dot for a boy. Are they saying I shouldn't be good with babies because I'm a boy?

Speaker 1: 3:20

That is an example I think of on both sides, on the girl's side and on the boy's side. It's an example of how the society sort of wanted to pigeonhole us into girls do this and boys do that, and boys don't do this and girls don't do that. It's called sexism. Now we've done a pretty good job over the past 60 years of addressing sexism against women and girls. We haven't done nearly as much to address sexism against men and boys. We haven't done nearly as much to address the ways in which men and boys are limited in their life options and in their ability to pursue their happiness, not nearly as much for men and boys as we have for women and girls and we need to get on with it because it's causing problems you with me so far.

Speaker 2: 4:17

I am, I am, I'm, I'm, there's. There's a ton of questions coming up, you know, and so it's, it's so interesting already, like you know. So I just want to kind of stop you right there. You know, when, when did you really start? I mean, because the reason for this question is because, with social media and stuff, I've seen a lot of these things coming up in this talk, coming up, you know, more frequently, and I think there is a really valid point to it and I've talked with my wife about it and and stuff in different forms and fashion.

Speaker 2: 4:46

You know, for example, you know girls want a guy that's emotional, but then you know, and opens up and talks about his feelings. But then when someone does, as a guy, open up and talk about their feelings, then all of a sudden they're seen, seen as not as masculine, right, and there's so many other things that are being talked about, and it's like you can't have both worlds, you. You know there there's not just sexism one way, there's not just, you know, toxicity one way, like it goes. So many things so honestly, like I already know I'm gonna have so many questions throughout this whole thing. But before all those, I just want to know when did you start really thinking about these things and when did this all of a sudden really start becoming something you wanted to focus on, if that makes sense okay.

Speaker 1: 5:29

So I I told you the story way back when I was a kid. Now I'll tell you the story. When I was in my 30s, I was on a. I was on a co-ed softball team in baltimore, my hometown. We played every tuesday night. We had a lot of fun, tons of fun. We were a pretty good team too, and after our games on Tuesday nights we'd go to a bar and we'd have some beers and have some dinner and we would dance. We would have a great time, would be sitting down at the table.

Speaker 1: 6:07

And on two consecutive Tuesday nights with two different female teammates on this co-ed softball team, I had these two teammates telling me tales of woe about their boyfriends. I don't even remember what the details were, but these men were doing something the girlfriend didn't like, and both women ended their stories about their boyfriends with this statement slash question. And so, jack, he's a real jerk, don't you think? And both times, from both stories they told me, all I could say was well, maybe he's a jerk, but maybe, based on what you're telling me, from a man's point of view, it looks like it. Very well. Might be this, which I don't remember what the this was, but some alternate explanation, which didn't have him being a jerk at all, just an explanation of you know, it might be like this. Did you ever think of this? And both times they said my God, I never thought of that. This was in my early 30s. And so I thought to myself wow, this is a problem. If we're going to have good relationships between men and women, the male point of view has to be better understood by women and maybe as a man I can help them understand it better by maybe doing my part to articulate it better.

Speaker 1: 7:52

So I came home after that second evening and I said to my girlfriend who was also on the co-ed softball team, but not one of those two, and I said I think I want to start a magazine. And she said I told her what it was about. She said, ooh, magazine, that's printing very expensive, postage very expensive. Why don't you do a radio show? Electrons are pretty cheap. So I thought that's a great idea, thank very much.

Speaker 1: 8:30

And I contacted a local public radio station at Towson University north of Baltimore and pitched them on the idea and of course they put me through some trials and tribulations to make sure you know it would be a good show.

Speaker 1: 8:38

And I did a pilot and they dug it and they put me on and I did that show from 1983 to 1989 pretty much every week and it quickly became clear that there was much more involved than just happy relationships between young men and young women. It became quickly clear that there were serious, serious, serious, actually life and death social issues involved in what's really going on with men and really understanding men better and not building social policy around this crazy idea that men have all the power and they always get what they want and they're full of privilege and they don't have any struggles, they don't need any help, don't need any concern. And that's where I am. That's where I am that I am very clearly committed, firmly committed, to convincing people, wherever I can find them, that there is a serious social need to get beyond the idea that men have all the power and it's a man's world and we don't need to pay any attention to the social needs of men and boys. Not true, a million miles.

Speaker 2: 9:57

Definitely no. Honestly, that's such a cool way to come about where you're at and honestly, I think that's so cool that you did have a radio show and and you kind of dedicated your life to this because it is so important. And one thing I mean I know I I've said this to my wife and stuff that I can't speak for all guys or you know, the way I see it is this, and it's because you know guys and girls are, you know, already operate differently. I've, I've been a personal trainer for years. I, you know guys and girls are, you know, already operate differently. I've been a personal trainer for years. I've, you know, trained the husbands, I've trained the wives.

Speaker 2: 10:29

I've listened to both of the problems, gave them both, you know, third party opinion, you know, on the situation and stuff like that. But it's like you tend to see that there is different ways the brain operates in both men and females, not that one's better than the other, they're just different. And so, even with my wife, what I realized was that I had to, basically whenever she would present a problem, I would immediately go to. Maybe it's the entrepreneur side, maybe it's because I'm a guy, I don't know, but immediately I go to okay, what are the solutions? And I start throwing out ideas to solve it, and then she would get frustrated, and then I'd be confused on why she's frustrated, you know. And then all of a sudden, we had a talk and I was like, look, if you just want to vent to me, then I'm all for it. If you want me to give solutions. Again, that's how my brain operates, so I just need to know what I'm doing in these conversations, right?

Speaker 2: 11:29

So then it was like, if now we've made an understanding where it's like, if she starts venting, like do you want solutions or am I listening? Like what, where are we going with this? Right, and that's in. So sometimes she doesn't want solutions or sometimes she just wants to vent, and that was a timeframe that we needed to establish with each other. Like that we operate differently. You know, I'm a business owner, I'm an entrepreneur, like my day is solving problems, like you know. Like I need to know that I can't just turn my brain off on how it works, right? So, with that being said, like what are some of the ways that you've kind of seen the difference between men and women? Just generally speaking, I know everyone's different but generally speaking, you know, the way we you know are different in terms of problem solving and those kind of things.

Speaker 1: 12:18

Let me say congratulations for you. You're a pretty young man to have figured that out with your wife, and apparently you've got it that out with your wife and apparently you've got you've got it worked out with your wife. She will let you know whether she just wants to speak, she just wants somebody to empathize and say, oh, that must be hard dear, or does she really want you to help her solve the problem? That's, that's pretty advanced, right there. When I was right there, when I was oh, let's see, probably in my 40s, I had a friend who was a psychiatrist and I asked him. I said what's the basic difference? No, I started by saying do you see any differences between men and women in your psychiatric practice? And he said oh, yeah, definitely. I said what's the main difference you see between men and women? He said women focus on what people need. Men focus on what people deserve. And at first I said well, isn't that the same thing? If you need it, you deserve it. He said no, it's not the same thing. Think about it. You need it. If somebody needs something, you just give it to them. It's not like they deserve it, it's not like they've earned it. You just give it to them because you're a nice person and they're in need, because you're a nice person and they're in need. Very different, very different formulation.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Now, with that said, I do want to go back to a minute or two ago and start out this discussion about the differences between men and women by saying we're a lot more alike than we are different.

Speaker 1: 13:57

You know we are the same species and you know the overlaps. I'm sorry, we mostly overlap in our traits, but there are plenty of differences that show up at the extremes, all the way to the left and all the way to the right. So you know, to tell you the truth, devin, what I would really like to know is some stuff from you, because you're a lot younger than I am and I would like to use this as an opportunity to get some understanding about what's going on in the minds of young men, because here I am, you know, presuming to talk from a male point of view and, of course, there are a thousand male points of view. I just want to know is the way I think and what I'm feeling and what I'm believing that we need. It resonates with young men like you Are. You are you late twenties, early thirties? What are you? What's your age?

Speaker 2: 14:54

I'm 33.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Okay, you're 33 and you're a business owner.

Speaker 2: 14:58

Correct.

Speaker 1: 15:00

And so you, you've started this. Is it a chain of gyms that you run, that you own?

Speaker 2: 15:08

Yes, I own a gym, and then we launched the franchise last year.

Speaker 1: 15:11

Yeah, so you're a businessman. You got a lot going on with this business. You got people depending on you for the payroll so they can pay their bill. A lot of pressure on you. How important to you, I know, you're a father. How important to you is being a father, and how do you try to balance your family duties and your business duties?

Speaker 2: 15:39

Um, I mean, I the word balance for me, like I don't, a lot of people think it's 50-50.

Speaker 2: 15:44

For me, my balance isn't going to be someone else's balance. So when I'm at work, I'm intentionally at work, but when I go home, I'm also intentionally at home. So my phone, you can text me, you can call me, but I'm probably not going to respond until either after my family goes to bed and I dedicated some time to either work, or until the next morning. I've just set those boundaries for myself because otherwise I will just keep going with work and I know that is something that is not conducive to, you know, building a strong family. But, with that being said, my family is number one in my life. Like I've told my business partner knows, and everything like that, something comes up, there's an emergency, like I'm going to go there, like you know that's, and I told him the same thing needs to happen to him. Like we can handle each other. We can, you know, cover each other on that aspect, but at the end of the day, the business and the family that we've created within the business itself is also just as important.

Speaker 1: 16:39

If you had to give up one or the other, your family or your business, what would you give up?

Speaker 2: 16:45

Oh, the business.

Speaker 1: 16:48

So this is what I am glad to hear. It's what I expected, hoped I would hear from a young man.

Speaker 1: 16:58

You place a lot of importance on your value as a father Correct lot of importance on your value as a father Correct, and I saw the show you did with your man, nick, about two weeks ago, where you were talking about legacy, yep, and you guys are pretty articulate and thinking pretty deeply about what's the difference between the grind and the legacy, and you both came down pretty strong on the idea of your legacy and both of you talked about how your legacy was primarily centered around your relationships, what people think of you. That's that's what's most important in your, in how you want to be thought of, how you make people feel and how you value them as as human beings worthy of your respect and friendship.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Right human beings worthy of your respect and friendship, Right? Yep, I mean, yeah, going into that. It's like your legacy isn't built off of one thing like my business isn't my legacy, Right? Every interaction I've had within my business, right, with every interaction I've had on the street, that's all part of your legacy. And then I went into the example of, like David Goggins, you know who's a fitness slash, motivational, like icon, and that all kind of stemmed from him breaking this. You know, pull up record in 24 hours, which now I think it's actually been beaten, and it's like that's not his legacy. Everything else after that pull up record and everything before that has created his legacy, Right? So not just you know business transactions and so forth, those are just transactions. Every life that you impact, every conversation you have, you leave an imprint on someone's life. That is your legacy.

Speaker 1: 18:56

Do you say your value system in this regard is among men in your cohort?

Speaker 2: 19:10

I honestly I can't speak for everyone. You know, a lot of people think that their legacy comes from a financial standpoint. Their legacy comes from you know how many Instagram followers they have and stuff like that and I don't think that's just men. I think that's, you know, men and women, and that's the reason of trying to get that message out. It's like there's so many other things that you overlook. Trying to get to what you think. A legacy is that you're actually really defeating what your legacy you're trying to leave is.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Are you aware I think you probably are that in the 50s and 60s the importance of fathers in families was pretty much disregarded, not respected? Did you know that?

Speaker 2: 20:03

What do you mean?

Speaker 1: 20:05

That well, for example, in the 50s and 60s, if there was a divorce and there were children involved and the man really loved his children After years of you know and sacrificing and and being their dad and you know, loving them and having them love him back, if there was a divorce, fathers were do not fight for custody. The best thing you can do as the father is just go away.

Speaker 3: 20:53

Don't put your children through that does that surprise?

Speaker 1: 20:56

yeah, yeah. Now in the in the early 50s, I was, you know, a real young kid. I don't know how often this idea was said to fathers, but my understanding is that it was pretty typical for lawyers to say don't put your kids through this, go away. Now, what's that mean? Well, it means that when there's a problem between a man and a woman, the burden for the solution is going to be entirely on the man. But even more importantly, what it meant was that the value of the man's point of view, the value of the male style you know, we're talking about differences at the extremes. The male style of being a father is different from a female style of being a mother. And you know, the whole idea of diversity is that the more opinions you get focused on a problem, the more likely you are to come up with a solution that works for everyone for everyone.

Speaker 2: 22:09

So it wasn't until the 1960s, do you?

Speaker 1: 22:10

know the? Do you know the name? Betty fordan? I do not. Okay, betty fordan was a writer who wrote the book, published in 1963, called the feminine mystique, and the feminine mystique is largely credited with launching, with initiating, sparking the modern, the current women's movement.

Speaker 1: 22:33

The book was a huge sensation. Hundreds of thousands, probably millions of women loved this book and said yes, you are saying what I feel. And what she was saying was that women are happy being mothers, but not every woman is happy being a mother. And that's it. Women have skills and abilities to be things other than mothers and housekeepers, homemakers. Some women want to be doctors. Some women want to be lawyers. Some women want to be scientists. Some women want to be astronauts. Although there weren't a whole lot of astronauts back in the early 60s, the book was a big hit. She went on to become the first president of the National Organization for Women.

Speaker 1: 23:27

Now, when I went back to read this book about 10 years ago, I expected it to be full of a lot of mean things about men, because it was basically a book about women's liberation.

Speaker 1: 23:41

It was basically a book about women's liberation, but Betty Friedan did not blame men for the fact that women had problems with sexism.

Speaker 1: 23:51

You know there were tons of stereotypes operating against women that served to keep them out of corporations and universities and medical schools and law schools, and you can imagine what those stereotypes were Women cry too much, they aren't logical, they can't do math, they just want to go shopping. You know just stupid stereotypes that all serve to keep women out of you know male territory, out of male territory. But she also, betty Friedan, also recognized that there were similar things going on with men and that men had things that they would like to change too, that were caused by sexism. Here we are, 60 years later, and we really have not gotten anywhere near as fully completing the job of ending sexism against men as we have in ending sexism against women, and the role of being a mother is still largely the primary province of women, if God forbid. Do you have any friends who have been through bad divorces? Any fathers, any men friends who've been through bad divorces?

Speaker 2: 25:28

Uh, kind of not really.

Speaker 1: 25:32

You're not sure Go ahead.

Speaker 2: 25:34

No, I mean I've known that clients and stuff, but not like personal friends.

Speaker 1: 25:39

Okay, some clients, and can you tell me without names?

Speaker 2: 25:54

of course, how these fellows felt they were being treated in the divorce, their weight against them in terms of you know the outcome. But again, that could be their truth, Again, not never being through that process myself and not being there for the proceedings or anything like that, like you know?

Speaker 1: 26:16

So yes, it very well could be just their bias, but you have not. Have you heard men saying oh yeah, I got to, I'm going through a divorce and I'm being treated really perfectly fairly, and California has such great divorce laws?

Speaker 2: 26:33

I have not heard that statement.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Okay. So the the bottom line for me is that men are still overly valued for how much money they can make back in the 50s and 60s and not nearly as much has been done to honor men's other abilities to be full human beings as has been done for women to be full human beings. They can be homemakers if they want. They can be lawyers if they want. They can be both if they can swing it.

Speaker 1: 27:31

My belief is that there are many men, like the mothers that Betty Friedan wrote about, who will do the traditional male thing of making money.

Speaker 1: 27:47

But, given a chance, they would be very happy, especially if they've spent a few years in corporate America and gotten sick and tired of it.

Speaker 1: 27:58

They would be very happy if somebody were to say to them it's perfectly okay for you to be a stay-at-home father if that's what you would like, and the beauty of that would be that, just as there are probably many men who would enjoy that, just as there are probably many men who would enjoy that, there are certainly many women who would enjoy having a husband like that, which would be good for everybody, good for the man who is relieved of the obligation to be in a job he hates to make money just because that's what men are supposed to do. He would be happier being a full-time parent. The wife would be happier being a full-time lawyer or a full-time CEO, knowing that the kids are being well taken care of at home. And now you're an entrepreneur and so you're a real go-getter. But you know there are lots of other men who don't have your spark and your drive, who are sort of lost. Now You're familiar with that.

Speaker 2: 29:16

No, definitely.

Speaker 1: 29:17

Yeah, what do you see in your cohort about men who are, who have no direction, who are lost, maybe depressed? What are you seeing?

Speaker 2: 29:31

I mean there's a mixture. I mean my, my direct circle. You know I kind of surround myself with like-minded people. So you know, in my direct circle I don't have necessarily those kind of individuals. Not saying that, you know, I weigh anything against them, it's just my time is very limited in terms of who I network with and who I hang out with. So you know, I just tend to gravitate towards more people that are more like myself.

Speaker 1: 30:02

but you, you are aware that there is a larger societal problem with young men who are having a hard time finding their niche where they belong oh, definitely, I mean, that's it.

Speaker 2: 30:15

It takes years and there's no given time frame for someone to find their niche, to find their way. Or you know, I know, like I've known of you know, dads that are. You know I know, like I've known of you know, dads that are stay at home dads and I've known knock towards that. You know that's if that's your finance, the family dynamic, and it works for you guys. More power to you guys, right, you know, for us, like that's I, I would go stir crazy myself Like I couldn't do it.

Speaker 1: 30:38

You have many clients, uh, who are? Who are single men?

Speaker 2: 30:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:48

You hear them talking about what it's like on the dating scene for them.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Here and there.

Speaker 1: 30:57

Can you give me an idea of what kinds of things they're saying about the dating scene?

Speaker 2: 31:06

me an idea of what kinds of things they're saying about the dating scene. I mean very like generic, like terms it's. I mean it's different depending on the person that's that's saying it. You know, but everyone is trying to develop their careers or, you know, people are, you know, not really focused on building a family and so forth, both men and women. One thing I will say, to kind of go towards this direction and I wanted to get your thought on it, is that typically, when you hear a man saying that they're, you know, creating a business or they're starting a career, it's for the reasons of so that I can support a family. When the other, when the flip side of it, you know, typically, if you hear a female talking about you know becoming, you know, successful and stuff, it's so that she doesn't need a man to take care of her. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 31:54

Well, I think it's. I think it's. It's bad, it's pretty, it's. It's a pretty clear indication of, I think, what could be called sexism. It's sexism that the man imposes on himself, that tells him the way for him to be a good family man is to make a lot of money so he could support the family financially. And it's also evidence of sort of a pro-female sexism that says she doesn't need a man. What are men good for? Sort of like that 1950s idea of, you know, the men can just walk away, nobody, nobody needs them. And so really, how far have we come in, you know, fully respecting both sexes for what they are capable of? You know, the idea of a single parenthood by choice.

Speaker 1: 33:01

It sort of makes me unhappy to think that women, that many women, have such little regard for the value of men as human beings loving, nurturing, potentially wonderful parents, so little regard for men's capabilities. Just like in the 60s we had so little regard for men's capabilities. Just like in the 60s we had so little regard for women's capabilities to be scientists and lawyers and doctors and politicians. Men are still not regarded as women's equals, not regarded as women's equals, and I think that upsets a lot of young men, a lot of boys, I think. Maybe you are sort of you're a special breed, you're an entrepreneur, you're a go-getter, you don't let anything stop you, you put your eyes on, keep your eyes on the ball and you go for it. Would you agree or disagree that there are a lot of young men who just don't have quite that kind of optimism, that can-do attitude that you have, who are bummed out by Go ahead?

Speaker 2: 34:28

No, I would agree. I mean, I know that I'm not saying that to be a guy or to be the right version of a guy is to be like me. I know that for me, this is just how I am right. I don't think it's the right way. I don't think it's the only way. It's just that's how I am and that's how I know I operate.

Speaker 1: 34:55

The right way for you? Yeah, of sexism, operating against many men who are not entrepreneurial types but more laid back types.

Speaker 2: 35:15

Oh, no, 100% Like the quote. I said it wasn't my opinion, like that was just like some of the generalistic things that you see on social media or you hear on social media. Another like quote in that regard, again, not saying this is what I believe. I mean this, this next statement I do believe it to a degree, but it it kind of ties into everything that you're saying and everything I agree with. What you're saying is that you know there's a quote or there's a saying that was said I forget that was.

Speaker 2: 35:41

It was basically the only, the only people that are loved unconditionally is basically women and children. Men, there's a condition to love, right, and it is your ability to provide to a degree, and whether that's correct or incorrect, I mean, that's again, it's not what I'm saying, this is just the what is out there in society. But again, men's value a lot of times is tied to some form of providing, some form or fashion, financially, you know, status, like again, whatever the case is, but that's that isn't always a societal case. In the flip side of you know the gender roles.

Speaker 1: 36:26

So that's you know pretty. It's not surprising, but it is. It is a little saddening to me that that attitude is still at work with with your generation and probably the generation younger than you Would you. You're not a psychologist, I know you're not a psychiatrist, but you are a man and you're a people person. Can you comment on how a young man today might be getting depressed about hearing and reading books, hearing about and reading books like the End of Men and Are Men Even Necessary and the Future is Female? Or does that affect men? Or do they just shine it on and say, oh, that doesn't bother me.

Speaker 2: 37:25

I mean, honestly, I can't even comment on it because I don't see things. I don't see it that way and I haven't heard anything like that. So it's like that. For me that would just be kind of a theoretical, random like what if? Statement.

Speaker 1: 37:41

What do you think are the issues? Are there any issues that young men are struggling with, including men like you who are really optimistic and real go-getters?

Speaker 2: 37:53

I mean, I think, for I can speak for myself in terms of, you know that men are supposed to be, or I believe that society in, in, in terms of relationship, you know, men are supposed to be the rock, right, we're supposed to be the emotionally stable. Not saying that women aren't emotionally stable, but like you know, aren't you know, aren't basically the emotional ones? Like they don't vent their problems, they hold everything within. They, you know, fix the problems and so forth. And I will say for myself, especially being an entrepreneur, that it is a very lonely path to be on in doing so.

Speaker 2: 38:34

So, even for like, for myself, it's like my wife, you know I'm, I'm open with her, but even I've told her like she only gets a portion of those problems, a portion of you know what's going on, because at the end of the day, she's also looking to me for a lot of those solutions. So now I can face that road alone or I can surround myself with other like-minded people, which is, you know, what I was mentioning earlier. So a lot of other business owners. You know, both men and women. You know some of those women are the you know, breadwinners of the family and they have stay at home husbands Right, but not speaking from a gender standpoint, but also from an entrepreneurial standpoint of being able to voice your issues, voice your problems with someone else that is also on this lonely journey.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Very articulate. I don't mean to get into your business and if you don't want to give this answer, you just tell me Does your wife work outside the home?

Speaker 2: 39:29

Yep.

Speaker 1: 39:31

And is she happy in her work?

Speaker 2: 39:35

She loves her work and that's the one thing I told her. I would never tell her that she has to work or that she cannot work.

Speaker 1: 39:41

And does she rely on you for a lot of the support for what were considered women's work back in the 60s and 70s? Do you pitch in a lot, do you?

Speaker 2: 39:55

I mean, yeah, I do pitch in. I don't think she relies on me or it's like for us. It's one of those things where I want to do some of those things. If I see our relationship as a 50-50 thing, you know, and it's not. You know, there's some days that you know I'll clean the house, some days that she cleans the house, and it's not because she's a woman, she's the one that has to cook and clean or she's the one that has to change diapers and so forth. Like I'm, I'm my daughter's father, like I want to do those things. But I know that's not the dynamic that has always been and I know it's still not the dynamic that even is in every household today, because I have clients that are my age, that have kids and they're very old school and like the guy works the, the wife doesn't, the wife takes care of the kids, the husband doesn't, and it's like for me that just just not not what I want my life to be.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Yeah and I know you're a very smart young man and you would never be judgmental but do you think those more traditional men are missing anything and in uh not being more involved with their, their kids?

Speaker 2: 41:03

I mean honestly it's each person has their own reasons why, their own driving force. Right, and some people that you know with that do that kind of style work and stuff. It's like that's what they've either seen, that's what they actually like, that's what works for them. There's there's no right or way, no right or wrong way to live life, as long as it's working for your family dynamic. Now, if it was a issue that the wife was bringing and no one was changing it up, then that's obviously probably the wrong way for your family dynamic to continue to grow.

Speaker 1: 41:39

You are a very smart young man, very smart young man. What other issues do you see in your cohort, even among entrepreneurial men, go-getting men, optimistic men, can-do men?

Speaker 2: 41:59

I mean. Nothing really comes to mind.

Speaker 1: 42:01

To be honest, I mean nothing really comes to mind, to be honest. Okay, so your show is about mindsets, right, right? And a basic principle of your show is that your mindset is your life, right, right? I wonder if it might be fun to play a little piece of audio from a TV show. Did you ever watch, mad Men?

Speaker 2: 42:38

I've heard of it.

Speaker 1: 42:39

Okay, yeah, it was on from 2000. Let's see, I think it was 2007 to 2015. Maybe that's not a good example if you haven't heard of it. How about if I want to try out this little device I've got, if you don't mind? How about a piece of audio from an expert about the importance of fathers? Do you think there might be some men listening to your podcast who might not really understand the importance of fathers and might like to hear?

Speaker 2: 43:18

what this?

Speaker 1: 43:19

expert has to say All right, I'm going to play this. This is Kyle Pruitt. He is with the Yale University Child Study Center and he's an expert on fathering. He's an expert on what children need is due is from a documentary called the Evolution of Dad, which was created by a documentary filmmaker named Dana Glazer back in 2010, which is what 15 years ago. I think you'll be able to hear this, but if not, you can edit it out and we'll try again. All right, here we are with Kyle Pruitt. This runs about 41 seconds.

Speaker 3: 44:07

If you want to reduce gang membership, teen pregnancy, dropping out of school, abuse and neglect of children and substance abuse, you can do it by engaging fathers early and often in the lives of their children. We know this from the science. We know it makes sense. It's not easy, but it absolutely works and our failure to connect the dots here with what we know is a huge unfinished problem and our children absolutely deserve for us to stop fooling around and fix this.

Speaker 1: 44:50

What do you think of that?

Speaker 2: 44:52

I mean, I don't disagree.

Speaker 1: 44:56

Do you like hearing that fathers are valuable and important in their kids' lives?

Speaker 2: 45:03

Oh, I mean, that was never a doubt. I mean, I know my dad is one of my number one role models.

Speaker 1: 45:13

And he was an involved dad with you.

Speaker 2: 45:15

As much as he could.

Speaker 1: 45:17

Yeah. So maybe the mindset that Kyle Pruitt is talking about, where he says we got to stop fooling around with this he's really talking about the mindset of American policymakers that we know that fathers are valuable and important. We know that fathers are often absent from their families. The standard explanation for that is that the men are no good, the men don't care, the men are irresponsible Not always the case. Sometimes they're sort of escorted to the door, especially if they don't have money.

Speaker 1: 46:03

You know, I guess on a podcast called Mindset Cafe, I would say that is a mindset that America really needs to change, where it doesn't value and respect the importance of fathers and doesn't seem to care that so many kids don't have fathers don't have fathers. So that's, you know, that's pretty much. My mission in life is to help men be recognized as full human beings with full capabilities to be nurturing, loving, kind, beneficial parents in their children's lives. And that's not just good for the kids, that's good for the man, it's good for the wife if she loves and respects her husband and it's good for communities. That's, you know, that's my mission. What do you think of that?

Speaker 2: 47:03

No, I mean I like it. I mean it's definitely that's why we know. When I came across everything with what you had going on, I was like this is definitely something that needs to be on the Mindset Cafe. And it is a little bit different, because everything that we do here is about perspective change, about just opening up your mind, and a lot of the stuff we focus on is personal development. But also this is one of those things where your personal development also does start at the home. So if this is a conversation that does spark interest, you know with you and with your current lifestyle or your current thought, you know ideology of how the world works. It's like doesn't necessarily need to work that way, right, just like business was ran a certain way, but it doesn't necessarily need to be ran that way. And so it's like the world is your sandbox to make it what you, what you please. And just because things have been a certain way for a number of years doesn't mean that's the way they need to be for ever.

Speaker 1: 47:58

What do you think a young man that we talked about oh I don't know 10, 15 minutes ago? What do you think a young man who has heard that or has encountered women on the dating scene maybe they're not even on the dating scene women who are making their own money, who won't give a young man the time of day on the dating scene because he's not making big money, even though he might be the nicest, kindest, most wonderful fellow in the world, great father, and feels sort of dismissed and demeaned and disrespected because he's not making big money?

Speaker 2: 48:55

I mean, the dating scene is very vast, would be my thing. And just because you're being dismissed or not finding what you're looking for in the opposite sex both female for male and male for female doesn't necessarily mean the scene isn't for you. You're just in the wrong scene. And relating it to business, for example, I wouldn't market my business on certain social media platforms because the people that are on those platforms aren't necessarily the right criteria for what I'm marketing, right. So it's right place, right time, the right audience.

Speaker 2: 49:31

So where is someone else like a successful woman that's looking for a man that would be a stay at home husband and stuff? They're probably both not going to be at the bar, right? That's probably not where you're going to find a successful woman that's looking for a stay at home. You know fatherly figure in terms of, like, stay at home dad and vice versa, Right, and so it's like you have to take yourself outside of those things. And where is your right audience? Again, kind of tying it into business and everything like that.

Speaker 2: 50:03

But where is your right audience? You know, in terms of what you're looking to achieve and make sure you're in those circles, right, Whether it is networking, you know events, whether it is just going out and you know, being at Starbucks, you know, and whatever the case is like so many things, that even nowadays it's so moving fast that social media platforms and or mean, uh, dating apps and all that kind of stuff are the the craze. But it's like again doesn't necessarily mean that's the only platform. So if you're only looking for your spouse on a dating app, it doesn't mean that that if she's not on there, he's not on there, that the world doesn't work for you.

Speaker 1: 50:38

You just need to reposition yourself, make time you are a go-getter, you are a problem solver, you know what you're doing. You're a pretty impressive young man, so you can help me out here by helping me understand social media. You say that some social media platforms you advertise on, some you wouldn't. You don't because the people on that social media platform that you wouldn't advertise on are not the kind who are going to be coming to a gym.

Speaker 2: 51:17

Correct no no, no. It's not that they wouldn't be coming to a gym, but while they're on that platform, they're not looking for a gym. For example, I wouldn't advertise gym memberships on LinkedIn, because when people are on LinkedIn, they're looking for business opportunities, they're looking for investments, collaborations, all that kind of stuff. But I would market my franchise on LinkedIn got it.

Speaker 1: 51:53

So, um there, there are no great psychometric differences on on the social media that that could help me understand them better.

Speaker 2: 51:58

Like twitter people versus uh uh, let's see instagram people no, it's the same people, but it's the time and mindset that they're in when they're on that platform. If someone's on Twitter Twitter is quick, now that it's X, x is quick it's a couple sentences, they're on, they're off. Even then it's like they want to see gossip. When someone's on Instagram, it's pictures, videos, quick things that you can flip and scroll. You're on LinkedIn, you're on YouTube. You're going to be there for a longer period of time. You're watching a full 50 minute. Woman wouldn't be at a bar, but probably that's not the best time to pitch that you're a motherly figure or a father figure in the bar, right?

Speaker 1: 52:53

yep, okay. Well, I gotta ask you what did you? What were you thinking would be? So far, I don't feel like I've really offered you anything that you well, maybe a little bit, but what were you thinking would make me a good guest on pod, on a mindset cafe?

Speaker 2: 53:19

Everything that we just talked about, honestly, like this, is before before we wrap up and stuff. You know we'll. We'll talk a little bit after this. I do, you know, want to say everything that you've talked about is exactly why I wanted to bring you on right. It's not to give me anything, it's to give the audience everything. And the thing is that conversations like this are conversations and thoughts that I have in my head, but that doesn't mean that, and in your head, but that doesn't mean that. And in your head that doesn't mean other people have these conversations or thoughts in their head, right? So this, the whole idea of mindset cafe, is to bring up ideas, bring up conversations that allow you to open up your mind and to realize that your reality is just your reality, and your reality is based off of the perspective and the perception that every obstacle in every life instance that you've overcome until this point has shaped who you are and how you see the world. That doesn't mean that's how the world is.

Speaker 1: 54:09

So smart? What generation do you belong to?

Speaker 2: 54:13

I don't really know the generational names, but I was born in 91.

Speaker 1: 54:17

That would make you a millennial, wouldn't it?

Speaker 2: 54:20

Maybe I have no idea.

Speaker 1: 54:22

I think that makes you a millennial. Well, you give me great optimism about the future of our country if there are lots of people like you in our future generations.

Speaker 2: 54:36

I appreciate it. I do want to ask you one question real quick.

Speaker 1: 54:40

Can I just say one thing before you ask me? I just want to say that what you just said really epitomizes why I love podcasting so much. To me, it is the most robust and civil marketplace of ideas in the social scene today. And you're a podcaster because I think, if I understand this correctly, you just wanted to get some ideas out there that aren't commonly heard on mainstream media. That your readers, you're doing your listeners a service by bringing forth what you took to be probably some stuff that hasn't been heard a lot. Fair enough, is that okay, exactly Good. Okay. Now, what did you want to? What did you want to ask?

Speaker 2: 55:30

I think that's the, that's the. You know, the difference is like, obviously there's some podcasters and stuff that do it and try to make a business out of it. Like this is my, this is my give back, right, this is my. I have a business. I have, you know well, a couple of different businesses. This is, for me, is just my give back. I've learned so much from other people and other people's stories and, you know, thought provoking stuff that people bring to the table. It's like that's that's a way for me to get other people to think and, and you know, learn and grow themselves and hopefully only enrich their life. But you know, my one, one question for you. I like to ask everyone, and I want to make sure that we don't miss it is that on Jack's legacy wall, this is not a tombstone, right? This is a legacy wall. What?

Speaker 1: 56:24

would be the one lasting message that you would leave on your legacy wall for the future generations of men and boys it is.

Speaker 2: 56:34

It's your legacy wall okay.

Speaker 1: 56:36

Well, I would probably try to say something different to women and girls, but you know, I mostly try to think and or I mostly do think about what men and boys must be going through. What my legacy wall would say to men and boys is what is a man who doesn't worry at all about other people's definition of a real man?

Speaker 2: 57:14

I like that Right.

Speaker 1: 57:16

Say that, say that one, one more time, just for the people that, well, I probably won't say it exactly the same way, but it would be something like a real man is a man who doesn't care at all about anyone else's definition of a real man.

Speaker 2: 57:39

That was perfect. That was perfect. Honestly, that's a first for the Mindset Cafe Legacy Walls and, honestly, that's a mic drop. Picked it up and mic dropped it again. Where can people connect with you and learn more about what you got going on?

Speaker 1: 57:57

Jackhammer dot. No, I'm sorry, mailfriendlymediacom. You can sort of see it in low print back there on this background behind me. Mailfriendlymediacom. You can sort of see it in low print back there on this background behind me Mailfriendlymediacom, mailfriendlymedia. One word no hyphen between mail and friendly. Mailfriendlymediacom is where I put my stuff.

Speaker 2: 58:17

Well, that will definitely be in the show notes and the video notes, guys. So make sure you guys check that out and make sure you guys share this episode with a friend, right? I know it was a thought provoking one for you and if this, you know, sparked your thoughts or, you know, made you feel any kind of way you know positive, negative, whatever, agree, disagree send it to a friend, see what they think you know and spark that conversation, right. But with having said, jack, I just want to take the time again to say thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to have this conversation with me and for the audience to open up their mind.

Speaker 1: 58:53

You've been a fabulous host. You're a very smart young man, thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:57

Thank you. It's been great talking to you. We'll definitely keep in touch.

Speaker 1: 59:00

Thank you, take care.