207. Leadership Skills in Business and Ministry w/ Guest: Kenneth Hester

Leadership isn't something you're born with—it's a skill you can develop, much like any other. Join us on the Mindset Cafe Podcast as we welcome Ken Hester, a distinguished leadership expert, who shares his invaluable insights on the journey of personal development and leadership. Ken opens up about how great mentors and experiences in sports and education can uncover and nurture leadership potential. He emphasizes the importance of taking risks and learning from failure, illustrating how these lessons transition seamlessly from personal growth to effective management of franchises.

Navigating between corporate environments and nonprofit spaces offers unique challenges in leadership development. Ken delves into his own transition from the business world to ministry, driven by a calling to add value to nonprofit spaces. Here, we dissect the disconnect between business and church operations, and the universal need for community and effective leadership strategies. By sharing insights from leadership institutes and personal experiences, Ken highlights the continual investment in leadership growth and the creation of thriving cultures, whether in a bustling office or a sacred space.

What's the secret ingredient to job satisfaction? Aligning your personal values with organizational culture might just be it. Ken takes us through the process of identifying and living by core values, using examples from industries like fitness and renowned companies such as Chick-fil-A and Starbucks. We discuss how integrating faith-based principles into leadership can foster an inclusive and effective environment without alienating diverse teams. With Ken's expertise, we round off the episode by examining the importance of investing in your circles—both personal and professional—to foster growth and collaboration, leaving you with plenty to ponder on your own leadership journey.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-hester-585b5697/

Chapters

• 0:00 Developing Leadership Skills and Franchises
• 10:23 Developing a Culture of Leadership
• 17:07 Aligning Personal and Organizational Values
• 23:01 Developing Personal Leadership Skills
• 32:05 Integrating Faith-Based Principles in Leadership
• 42:59 Investing in Your Circle

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, it's mindset cafe. We all about that mindset. Gotta stay focused. Now go settle for the last. It's all in your head how you think you manifest. So get ready to rise, cause we bout to be the best. Gotta switch it up. Gotta break the old habits. Get your mind right. Turn your dreams into habits. No negative vibes, only positive thoughts, thoughts.

Speaker 2: 0:37

What is up guys? Welcome to another episode of the mindset cafe podcast. It's your boy, devin, and today we got a special guest for you. I know all of our guests are special, but this one I'm honestly really excited about. He is a leader, he's a leadership expert, he is a speaker, he is a pastor with over 22 years of experience, really, in guiding teams and individuals towards excellence and personal growth, and you already know everything with the Mindset Cafe. We're all about personal development, from your mindset to your physical fitness, to your nutrition. So, honestly, that's everything that we're going to be talking about today. So, without further ado, I want to welcome Ken Hester to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Devin. What's up, man? I'm excited to join you and have a great conversation today. It's going to be awesome, Awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:25

So let's dive into your story. Where did you know, like the personal development, where did the leadership, all that kind of stuff come in for you?

Speaker 1: 1:32

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think when we have great people in our lives, they just pull things out of you. Right? They're going to pull potential out of you.

Speaker 1: 1:41

And I think from an early age, just being involved in sports soccer, basketball I was involved in my youth group. I was involved in student development within my high school as well and had different teachers, different coaches, different mentors, just developing me in different ways, challenging me, pulling potential out of me that I didn't even realize for five or 10 years. You just kind of like it's just there and then you look back and you go, oh, wow, that's what they were doing. That's why they pushed me a little bit more. That's why they asked me deeper questions, that's why they challenged me to take a different class or to go into a leadership development kind of environment with other leaders so I could learn and glean from them. So I feel like it's been a journey now for like 30 years. You know it's like wow, ok, from the early ages of teenage life to just continuing to add on that in the college and now professional realm as well to just continuing to add on that in the college and now professional realm as well.

Speaker 2: 2:51

No, that's so cool. So I mean, what drew you to leadership and leadership development? When did you know that you had those skills? Because some people say that some people are naturally born leaders, and for me I believe that it's a skill and, yes, some people may be born with more of that skill, you know, just like some people are just naturally talented at basketball, but it's developed right. And so where did you know that you actually had that skill and, you know, really wants to start honing in and developing it.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Yeah, I read a book a while back. It's called talent is overrated, overrated, and it basically had all of this scientific data to support why talent is only part. It's 10% of everything. What you do, how you spend time, your intentional development plan, is really up to you. And I think early on I would again love sports. I was in sports. I actually went to University of North Carolina for sports administration, so I understood that kind of coaching, mentoring, leadership was in me and then I would look to just develop that beyond and beyond.

Speaker 1: 3:56

So I think leaders are also learners. So if you just have an appetite for learning, if you're like, let me grab a book, let me listen to a great podcast with Devin, right, let me let me like always be gathering information. I call it the ABCs right, always be collecting. Right, always be collecting. And if you're collecting that leadership mindset, if you're collecting just different ways to understand and apply and learn and fail, ways to understand and apply and learn and fail Because I feel like leadership is a lot of failure as well You're learning what not to do.

Speaker 1: 4:32

So you know, okay, well, let's try that, let's take a risk, let's figure that out. And although you can have great insight from books or from conversations or classes or our podcast for you to actually take the risk. I think that's what leaders do better than anyone else is they take a risk and they're not. They're not just going to go okay, well, I'm not going to take that risk because I might fail. They're going to take the risk knowing that it could lead to failure. But even in failure, it's an opportunity to learn and get better.

Speaker 2: 5:04

No, that's so awesome. So I mean you now you learn that you have this skill and you really start, you know, honing in on it and you understand that you know learning is part of the leadership role, Right. And then there comes a time when you get into the corporate space with managing franchises and I was like at that that, what was that transition point? Where was that opportunity, you know, kind of shift. The reason I'm interested in it too is, you know, besides the mindset cafe, you know, we actually me and my business partner actually have a gym and we actually launched the national franchise and everything like that. So just curious for you, where was that transition point?

Speaker 1: 5:41

Yeah, I think learning from different models is helpful. So when I was in management in college, I managed Applebee's. I managed a sports bar and cafe as well that had multiple franchises. So I was learning from them. Like what did you do to scale? What did you do to add to your workforce? What did you do to limit that workforce? What specific areas did you do to inventory? Right what was working, what was not? Using data to make decisions rather than feelings making decisions. Right, you guys could be like all right, great, yes, we absolutely want to launch another franchise, we absolutely want to do that. But do we have the leadership in place to lead that franchise, not just a manager? A leader and managers are different than leaders. Managers will take what a leader says and apply it, but leaders will take what someone says and say I got to make that better. So managers a lot of times we'll just kind of take their marching orders and go, but leaders will say all right, I'm going to take that, I'm going to take action, I'm going to make it better, I'm going to build on what you said to make this successful. So I think when I've learned about franchises and about leading multiple organizations that have the same mindset. They can be I use this, I use this language a lot and they are identifiable but not identical.

Speaker 1: 7:10

So you can walk into your gym anywhere. You know eight gyms, 10 gyms, whatever it is, and you are going to have. You're going to have probably similar equipment, but you're going to have the same brand. You're going to have the same color. You're going to have the same customer experience. You're going to have the same signup. You're going to have the same brand. You're going to have the same color.

Speaker 1: 7:26

You're going to have the same customer experience. You're going to have the same signup. You're going to have the same follow-up, right, but you're going to have different trainers. You're probably based on where they are. You're going to have different equipment. So you might have more cardio equipment over here, but you might more have strength equipment at a different location because that's your clientele. That doesn't mean that you're a different organization. That means you're still identifiable as that organization, but the leader within it knows what's best for the community that they're trying to reach. So, as you empower them and you're saying, great, I'm empowering you now as a leader, as that franchise manager or franchise operator, I want you to make the decision that is best to move that part of our organization forward.

Speaker 2: 8:13

No, I mean that is so powerful too because some people want to become managers, and not every manager is a good leader, right? And just because you have the role doesn't or the title doesn't make you good leader, right. And. And just because you have the role doesn't you know, or the title doesn't make you a leader, right, it just you know. And so how, I mean cause you kind of explained, if you want to become a leader, like what? What? The steps are different between a leader and a manager. But how, as a, let's say, business owner, or how, as a leader, can you tell if someone is a manager or a leader? You know below you if you're trying to bring someone up.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Yeah, sure, I think a lot of things you're doing is. It is that evaluation process. I think sometimes we try to put someone in a leadership role because we need that role filled, rather than putting the right person in the role. Sometimes you need to leave that vacant. It might be a little bit more on your plate, because now you've got two roles that you've got to manage. Okay, well, I just need to put a leader in, and if you feel like you're just putting a leader or a manager in place that isn't ready but fills the role, that's like a bandaid on a bullet hole right you go. Okay, I don't, really, I don't see the bullet hole anymore, but that doesn't mean that it's fixed or that doesn't mean that it's sewn up. That doesn't mean that it's healing, right. So you're going to have that same issue two months from now, six months from now, because now that person that you put into place wasn't a leader and they're going to step away or you're going to have to fire them because three other people have quit since then.

Speaker 2: 9:50

You know, yeah, no, I love that Honestly. I love analogies and that's the first time I ever heard, bandaid on a bullet hole, that, that, that, that it was awesome. So you know. So you went into managing corporate franchises. You know, you're building up leadership teams and you're you're really a student of the game of leadership, right, and you're learning from how different corporations do it and basically taking the key components and understanding all that for yourself. You know, you've coached high school basketball. I can see the basketballs behind you and everything. Obviously, that's a big part, a big part of everything. But then there's a time where you go into ministry, right, and so what was that driver? What was that calling to go that route instead of staying in the corporate world or staying in the coaching world? What was the? I mean, you kind of hit all three of the realms of leadership.

Speaker 1: 10:43

Yeah, yeah, I think it is calling right. What I want to do is I want to add value anywhere I go, but what I really felt like was a calling in my life was to add value to the church. I see a lot of times businesses and organizations run better than the church and I go. Why is that? I don't you know I shouldn't have a better experience at Starbucks or at my gym or, you know, at my favorite restaurant than I do at my church? What's the disconnect? And what I realized is the disconnect is leadership development and that gap that is there where, as a, as nonprofits and I work with other nonprofits as well the issue that they have mostly is what I just mentioned with management right, management and leaders. They're not leaders. You don't put them in leadership. You put them in leadership positions but they're really just volunteers and you say, all right, it takes me a long time to develop a leader. I have to pour, I have to invest. There's time, there is. It's really just an ongoing thing. There's not like I can send you to a six week class and you're going to be a leader Like, no, that's not it. There's proximity the closer that you are to someone, the more that they understand your style of leadership as well. So you've got to be able to say what is your style of leadership, what is the culture? What am I trying to replicate? Because leaders really should be a replication of the leadership that is around them or that is above them. And if it, if it's going in different directions, then it's not going to work. It's not going to work for either, either team Um, and so what I tried to bring into the, the, the church space and nonprofit space right now is that that um, corporate mindset of there are line items.

Speaker 1: 12:43

Uh, I just got back from a leadership development institute and you know, a group from the LA Dodgers were there, a group from Pixar was there, a group from Disney was there, like, and because they've all invested into leadership development on their teams, right, I was the only one there representing kind of like a church or a nonprofit, you know. So I'll go and I'm in a room of 40 or 50 leaders and I say, well, the problem is that we say that leadership is valuable, but we don't actually invest into that leadership being valuable, but we don't actually invest into that leadership being valuable. So that's what I would probably challenge people that are out there, even in for-profit organizations. You're like why don't I have better managers, why don't I have this, why don't I have that? Well, how are you investing into that leadership? Are you going to conferences together? Are you doing continuing education? Going to conferences together? Are you doing continuing education, even if it's just listening to podcasts or reading books? Are y'all doing that together and doing exercises to help support leadership development? Because it doesn't happen overnight. It does not. Oh, I'm a leader today.

Speaker 1: 14:01

No, you might have leadership traits, but you've got to really hone those skills. You've got to develop those skills, as you mentioned before, and you've got to be very intentional about your own personal development, but also the development of those around you. So, if I'm not leading, if I'm not learning, if I'm not going to I'm currently taking an online class at Cornell for leadership development. You go okay, I got to have different experiences, different insights, different learning tools that I can contextualize to my place. I'm like okay, great, well, I'm not going to do everything that Cornell says. I'm not going to do everything that this other institute said. I'm not going to do everything that Disney said or that whatever like.

Speaker 1: 14:47

Are they great institutions? For sure, do they have great leadership, great culture, great understanding of systems and processes? 100%. But I've got to contextualize that into my framework the same way that you would If I was going to coach you and meet with your group. I would say what are your goals, what are your values, where do you want to be? What do you want to accomplish Then? What leadership do we need to take and what leadership gaps are there in getting to that point?

Speaker 2: 15:19

No, definitely, and I love that, because you saying that I'm so big on that too is where you know leadership. It's like you, you can go to, let's say, cornell and you can go to the summit, and you can go to these things and you learn one thing of it right, one aspect, one perspective of of you know leadership, or of problem solving, whatever the case may be, and essentially that's one tool you get to put in your tool belt. But imagine if you had to work for the rest of your life and you only had a Phillips screwdriver right.

Speaker 2: 15:49

You know that doesn't work for everything, right? So it's like that. That's the same thing with how you said, you know, go into a different school, getting different perspective, getting a different way to contextualize it, and you know be able to convey that, because sometimes, like, that analogy you gave might resonate with me, you know the bullet hole and bandaid, but it might not, you know, click with someone else, right, right. So I love that so much and I do want to rewind real quick, because you mentioned a word, real quick and it is really interesting because the word culture and building a culture within both a business and a ministry or in within a church, right, they are still one in the same because culture, community, you know, tribe, whatever you want to add the word, right, it's there. So how, how do you create a culture like where a team can thrive or where a team can really just grow instead of just be or just function?

Speaker 1: 16:45

Yeah, it really starts with your core set of values. What do you value, right? You mentioned that as we started the podcast, right? Like, okay, we're talking about health, we're talking about leadership, we're talking about good eating, we're talking about good exercise. These are the things that we talk about. To make sure that these are, this is what we value.

Speaker 1: 17:07

Your listeners value a certain set of things. That's why they continue to listen, they go I'm going to continue to get that and I know I can go there for that and so whatever your values are will help drive your decisions. So, when you're creating a culture, you've got to say what are the values of our culture? They drive your decisions. So when you're creating a culture, you've got to say what are the values of our culture? They drive the decisions that we're making, and then that reinforces the culture, right? So if it's easier to hire that way, it's easier to retain people that way, because you go oh well, do your values match up with our values?

Speaker 1: 17:42

Now, the problem is that a lot of organizations have a strong set of values, but people don't like oh, I'm going to, I love your values, so I'm going to, I'm going to join your organization because you've got great values. So what I would challenge you and the people listening today is whatever um part of the organization that you play, you say do the bout, do my personal values match up with the organization that I'm a part of? Because if they don't, that's probably where your frustration lies. The the organization is making decisions based on the values that they founded their organization on, and if your personal values do not match that, then your culture will not match that. Then you will be frustrated in your role and in your job and you go well, maybe I just need to work in a different role, or maybe I just don't. Maybe I need to do this or that.

Speaker 1: 18:40

No, your values and the decisions that are being made at a higher level than yours are based on a value set that doesn't match with your personal values. So if you value health but you work at a fast food restaurant, you're probably going to be frustrated. Right, like, okay, cool, like. But if you're like, okay, I don't value. I don't value working out at all, well, I'm not. I'm no offense to anybody out there that might be a you know 500 pound trainer, but I'm not going to go to them for training, right? Uh, that's not really what cause it? Clearly, your values don't match what you're, what you're selling, right, so your personal values have to match your organizational values, which then is an overlap. Of culture Makes sense.

Speaker 2: 19:28

No, definitely. And I mean, if you're a 500 pound trainer, take your own advice. I will say that I'll be. I'll be, I'll be the aggressive one for you, ken.

Speaker 2: 19:38

You know, like being in the industry like this is the one thing that drives me nuts is because I mean even in, even in your space, like with ministry and stuff like that, like people, people can preach the word and do so, but it's what separates the two of a great minister and a decent one that just knows how to recite the word. Same thing with training. It's like some people get a certification, they go to school and they're telling their do, do a and then they're doing B, like I've seen trainers you know, at other gyms, like smoking cigarettes in the parking lot, and I was like do you guys not know that just because you're outside the door, it doesn't mean the members don't see you, right, you know? It's like come on.

Speaker 1: 20:19

So you know, just a 100%, and that is like live, and I think that's a problem with churches as well, like even the values that are said right, they might be said values but they're not practiced values and when those things don't match up, that's where people, that's why people leave pastor was bad, or because the worship was bad, or because the people are bad. It's because what you said your values are. You are not supporting those values in action.

Speaker 2: 20:55

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 20:57

It's like oh, your value is a great. You know, a Chick-fil-A, or whatever it is, is like the best chicken sandwich. Ok, well, if I go to Chick-fil-A and I order a chicken sandwich, I go we're out of chicken. Well then, your decisions did not match with your values. I've never gone to a Chick-fil-A and then been out of chicken. You know what?

Speaker 2: 21:16

I mean.

Speaker 1: 21:17

Every decision they're making is based on the value of we will have the best chicken sandwich.

Speaker 2: 21:23

I mean, chick-fil-a is actually a good example of like a culture and sticking to their core values. Like the craziest thing as a restaurant, especially as a fast food restaurant, right To be closed on Sundays because the founder, you know, said that's family day and till today that is still a thing like that. That blows my mind and it's like that's a huge example of culture. Even starbucks, I read, I read the book, um, it's not about the coffee, it's about the, the ceo and about the whole foundation and honestly, like I'm not a huge coffee person, but I definitely agree to like the whole culture, culture of starbucks.

Speaker 2: 22:01

And I think that it really comes down, like you're saying, to self-awareness. Right, you have to be aware of self to be effective, be an effective leader, because you need to place yourself in the right place, right, and instead of just filling someone's role, like you were saying, almost on the flip side, instead of just becoming a manager over here, just because it's you know better than not doing anything, it's like sometimes you also need to know your worth in, you know everything as well, right? Um, now, how, how can leaders and I, I know we kind of briefly touched on this in terms of the business owner right, but how can leaders balance their personal growth while still focusing on serving their team?

Speaker 1: 22:47

That's a great question, I think, having a personal development plan. Again. I think we have organizational plans or business plans or anything, but when it comes to our personal life, we don't have a personal development plan. What do you want to accomplish? What do you want to accomplish in your finances? What do you want to accomplish in your family? What do you want to accomplish physically? What do you want to accomplish in your finances? What do you want to accomplish in your family? What do you want to accomplish physically? What do you want to accomplish in your faith? Right, Like, whatever those things are.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Lay out what your personal development plan is, what your action steps are for that, and then you'll be able to be more successful in your leadership or management role. Because if I'm not challenging myself, then I can't. I don't set a good example for anybody else, Right, but people will want. People also want to they're inspired by leaders and they want to follow leaders that they want to be like, Right? So if my finances are in order and somebody comes to me and they're like hey, you know, I'm going through a rough time I'm not sure whenever like hey man what you know.

Speaker 1: 23:50

what do you need? You need 300 bucks, 500 bucks. What do you need? And they're like oh yeah, you know, it could really help me out if I did. Okay, here you go, here's 500 bucks. And they're like, what I mean? It's in their brain, that is like the most ridiculous thing that they've ever heard of. And I'm going, I've managed my finances to a place where I can be generous and it doesn't bother me, and so now they're going to come to me for financial advice. Right, wait, so how did you get to the place where you didn't have to do that? Okay, great.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Or, if I'm working out, I had a guy text me today. He's like hey, hey, man, um, where, uh, uh, where are you working out? And I'm not talking to him about working out ever, but he can see that that is that's about you, right, right, okay, cool. Yeah, let me see if I can get you a guest pass or whatever. It is right. So those types of things I I talked to another guy earlier in the week and he was like he's looking for a job and he's trying to.

Speaker 1: 24:50

He called me not because I can get him a job, but because he knows that I figured out what my values were to be in the right lane to be successful. So he's like how did you figure that out? Because I'm applying everywhere and I said stop applying everywhere. I said apply for the only, only the things that you want to do, only the things that match up with your values, only the things that only the organization that you want to be a part of. And I never thought about that.

Speaker 1: 25:17

Yeah, cause you're going to bring more, more passion to that interview because you want to be a part of that organization, subliminally subconsciously. However, you want to talk about it of that organization subliminally subconsciously. However, you want to talk about it like when you go into an interview that you just applied to randomly on, indeed, or whatever, they're going to feel that right. But if you go, no man, I'll absolutely. These are organization values. They match up with my values. I feel like I can bring abc xyz to the organization and help you move forward in this way. 100%, you're at the top of the. You're at the top of the list now, and I think that if people can figure out again how they're leading themselves, it will help them understand how they lead others.

Speaker 2: 26:03

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 2: 26:04

And I want to even add to what you're saying too is like, with the whole job thing, with Indeed right and knowing what companies you line up with, and everything like that, I 100% agree with what you just said.

Speaker 2: 26:29

Let's say you're looking for a man just for terms of your manager position right, because you you've been a manager in the past. You want to be a manager right now, but you really want to work for this company because you align with their core values and everything like that, and you know you're going to be with them for the long haul. Yep, my, my opinion is sometimes it's better to just get in and prove your worth than demand your worth from the get-go, because if you do have the skills, it will show. And I promise you, as a business owner, if someone says they're a manager and they come on and then all of a sudden they're not, they're probably going to be let go fairly quick. But if someone says they're a manager but they're willing to come in at any position, they're probably going to get that position fairly quick if they actually demonstrate those skills.

Speaker 1: 27:09

Yeah, 100% agree with you. Get your foot in the door If you're at it. If you know that you align with an organization, you know well, it doesn't pay me that much or that fine, like, hustle, grind, figure it out, like go Instacart or do whatever you got to do, like. But if you know that you want to be in there for the long haul, it's like with any other relationship, like I'm not going to put a ring on it after the first date, right, like, okay, like that that's probably not a smart decision, you know. So it's like well, I don't understand why they didn't just make me the CEO. Like, well, I don't even know you, like, I'm not going to make you, I'm not going to put you in after an hour conversation. I'm not just going to put you in a leadership role over people that have been at my organization for a year, two years, three years I'm going to make sure and they may not have the leadership.

Speaker 1: 28:05

There's kind of two lanes to that. One would be how are you developing the people that are already in your organization for a role that you need to fill in management? Rather than trying to find a management role, there should be somebody if you're a great leader and you're developing people around you and you have a mindset of leadership, then there should be a plethora of people that, when that job opens, I already know these three people. I'm going to ask them to apply for this role, right yeah? So kind of take a deep look at yourself. But on the other side of it, if you are in a management position and you say I'm willing to be a part of anything here because everything aligns with who I am and I will prove to you that I'm a leader regardless of my title, that right there, that statement I'm a leader regardless of my title will get you in leadership faster than you can blink.

Speaker 2: 29:01

That was actually. It's funny you just mentioned that. I was actually going to ask that correlation because some people think that they need to have a title to be a leader. And just you know, for us, like even at my, my gym, and with the franchise that I don't hire managers you get management. You become a manager through merit. I don't care if you've been here for five years, one year, six months. The best person for the job gets the job right. But we do it all internally. But now, now, someone that isn't a manager can they be a leader? And if you want to be a manager, should you start leading now?

Speaker 1: 29:39

essentially, yes, 100%. Like lead, you lead yourself, lead the people around you, lead up. Right, all my manager people say this all the time. Well, my supervisor doesn't do this, or my manager doesn't do that, okay, well, do it for them. Like nothing stopping you from leading at the level and nothing says that they're going to be in that role forever. Nothing says they're going to be in your role forever.

Speaker 1: 30:04

But you can control what you can control. Don't worry too many, too much about the things that we can't control. Worry about what you can control, and I can control my actions. I can control. Well, my manager wasn't even here. They didn't even open the doors. You know, I'm not going to get there early because they don't get there early. That's a reflection of you, not a reflection of them. Yep, right, so I'm going to be here early, I'm going to lock, I'm going to walk and if I got to stand outside, I'm going to stand outside, like, but my manager, somebody's going to know, the security camera is going to pick it up, right, and it's like hey, why is Ken always? Uh, there, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes before, like it's.

Speaker 1: 30:49

You're showing leadership, um, skills and values that go far beyond your role and if you're staying after to clean up, if you're doing whatever it is like, think of yourself as part of the team. How can you be the best teammate and a team that? What I love about sports as well is that there really are no leadership positions, right, but there are. When you look at I'm a big basketball fan, obviously, coach basketball and all that, so was like all right. Well, there are two guards, typically two forwards. In the center there's a multiple.

Speaker 1: 31:24

You know ways you can split that up, but ultimately, that's your traditional set. Is leader on any of those titles? No, right, but they self determine who the leaders are on the floor, and those leaders are based upon the actions that they take, not on the words that they say or not, on a C being on their jersey or whatever it is. It's like, no, they're a leader because of the actions that they take and it's not about the role that they play. They play their role. They play their role really well, but they lead because of the actions that they take.

Speaker 2: 32:03

No, that is so true. Now I do want to ask you know, as a pastor, right and everything, and having the ministry and everything, you're still a leader. And it's a different type of leadership, in a sense, than business, but not by much Right, type of leadership in a sense than business, but not by much Right. And so how do you integrate, or how would you recommend integrating? I guess not recommending it if you're not religious but how do you integrate, like faith-based principles into leadership, without you know alienating diverse teams, or even for yourself, like with the, the ministry, that, how do you convey leadership with you know faith-based principles?

Speaker 1: 32:44

yeah, again, a lot of it overlaps, right? So, um, you don't have to say that you learned it in this one by reading scripture or by doing this or by doing that, but you go. Hey, I was reading this leadership book on proximity and what it showed me is that the leader spent more time with his highest level management or his highest level leaders than anyone else, and the amount of time that he spent with them was very intentional. He challenged them, he restructured them. He didn't actually give them titles and told them that titles weren't important. He told them that it was more about the actions that they took than the titles that they had.

Speaker 1: 33:24

And so all the things that I just talked about for the last 20 minutes with you were all faith-based principles based on Jesus and his disciples. Like Jesus, in proximity, had those 12 guys closest to him for three years, 24-7, and taught them what they needed to do, what they needed not to do, even told them it doesn't matter if you're at my right hand, it doesn't matter what you know, it doesn't matter what your title is, it doesn't matter what this is. What matters is the goal, what matters is where we're going, what matters is how you act. What matters is how you bring others along with you Like, and all of that, although is based out of a scripture and based out of faith, completely applies to everything in leadership and management and in an organization in any organization, something in it.

Speaker 2: 34:18

I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it's true or not true, right Cause I don't know but, like you were saying with your example, someone had mentioned that you know majority of life leadership and majority of these. You know life principles that we read in these other books and you know it has a different context or different. You know it's a Starbucks context or different. You know it's a starbucks book or whatever the case.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Right um, a lot of it is based off of, you know, scripture and stuff and and it's just regurgitated and reworded so that, again, like you were saying, a lot of the examples you were you mentioned were all faith based, but you didn't have to put you know the, the name jesus, you didn't have to put disciples, you didn't have to. So, like, eliminating or changing the words doesn't is the core value and the core message that it conveys, but the how you know, kind of going back to what we talked about earlier, like great you know pastors, great ministers, versus you know okay ones, it's like the okay ones need to use those words to let people know that they have something to say that it's important, right, other other, the one, the ones that are great, can switch it up and change up like you've done thus far, and almost like give you that. Like, uh, what's it called when you're teaching someone and they don't know that you're teaching them?

Speaker 2: 35:34

the reverse psychology right, yeah, you know in in a way, and so I think that that is so interesting too, because you know the scripture and everything is. There's so much, so many messages in there that it really makes you think you know. It's like man, I could just get all of the lessons you know and internalize it and stuff like that. What are your?

Speaker 1: 35:53

thoughts. Well, I think I think too. It's like you know, what made Jesus so great is his ability to connect with everyday people. So the parables that he told, the stories that he told, were very real life examples. Right, they were to the shepherds, they were to the tax collectors, they were to the fishermen, they were to the people of that time and era and culture. And they were to the people of that time and era and culture. He wasn't confusing them with all of this. You know hoopla, or you know big words or things that people didn't understand. He was like let me just tell you how it is and how this applies to your life.

Speaker 1: 36:33

So if you want to go deeper, then go deeper, but I need you to start at a level where you can start at, and I think that, again, that applies to every organization. Have your onboarding. Start with what they can handle. Right. What can a new employee handle? Great. Don't expect them to be incredible on their third day. They're going to need some runway. They're going to need some time to take off. They're going to need some time for success. They're going to need some time to fail, and that's okay. And if you can come alongside them and encourage them along the way, then that will help them be more successful in the long term.

Speaker 1: 37:17

But yeah, I think that those leadership principles again, you read John Maxwell, all of that is. You know his 87 books that he learned are based off of his faith principles and based off of even John Maxwell's books, and so I'm like OK, like this is, these are things that you don't have to be so upfront with it that it turns people off. You don't have to be like OK, well, well, found in Luke 27,. It says the leadership dah dah, dah, dah, dah, dah dah, like, no, just like. Just talk to people, like people right, and if they want to ask where did you learn that? Tell me a little bit more about that. You can, as you build a relationship with them, as you build community with them, as you connect with them, you'll know whether, when the right time is and when the wrong time is, to lean in and share those ultimately faith, value principles that you've built in your own life.

Speaker 2: 38:29

No, I love that, and it's the crazy thing is I'm actually reading the nine figure mindset right now.

Speaker 1: 38:34

So when you said that, you get it, you totally understand.

Speaker 2: 38:38

Yeah, right, when you said that, I was like it can't be the same one, and then I was like, yeah, it's the same one. That that is crazy, you know. Um, so I like to, I like to wrap up with one question, you know, and this question, I know you didn't get it before because I don't want what first comes to mind, the authentic answer, right. So on ken's legacy wall. Mind you, this is not a tombstone, this is your legacy wall. Right, I have to. I have to say that because there's been a handful of times that people start off with loving father. You know, it's like hold on, let's, let's. It's not supposed to be dark, let's rewind that. Yeah, you know. So, on your legacy wall, what is the one lasting message that you've learned through your life's journey? Right, your experiences, the things that you've been taught, things you've read that you would leave for the up-and-coming generations um, I would probably say invest in people, because that investment never returns void I like that.

Speaker 2: 39:40

That's, that was the first. Can you explain it a little bit?

Speaker 1: 39:43

I mean, I love that For sure, yeah, I mean and when I say invest in people, because you have to include yourself in that investment process, right? So there's a ton of things that you can invest in. You can invest in, obviously, your health, your finances, you can invest in stock, you can invest in businesses, you can invest in all the things, but the more that you invest in yourself, the more return that you will get. Yeah, okay, I'm going to invest. I'm going to make sure that I've got, um, uh again, a good health plan, a good um uh understanding of my family values, a good faith, uh perspective, a good financial plan, like, I'm going to invest into making myself better in all of these ways and instead of investing into things that don't return anything for you, you're like oh well, I want to get those new headphones or I want to get that new car or I want to get that new. It's not that you can't have those things, but if you invest in the right things, then those other things will come to you automatically, right? So if, like, if I get my finances right, if I get my budget right, if I pay off my debt, if I don't get in over my head, if I live under my means, if I like things like you know that you feel like everybody should know. But it's like man, can you live on 80%, can you save 10%, can you give away 10%? If you live like that, that is a financial principle that tons into.

Speaker 1: 41:10

I mean, even you know millionaires, billionaires, whatever they'll go I can live on 20% and I can give away. And now I don't have to pay taxes because I'm giving away 50% of my income. Wait, what? How do you get there? Well, it starts in small increments, right? So then you can start adjusting those percentages over time. Yeah, okay, great, if I did 80, maybe I could do 79. Maybe we do 78.

Speaker 1: 41:40

And if you do that over a 30 year timeframe, well, now you're living off of 40% and you're giving away and you're saving and you're investing. But all of that means all that has to start with. I'm going to invest in understanding my financial future better. So I'm going to read that investment book, I'm going to listen to that investment podcast, I'm going to sit down with an investment broker. I'm going to get somebody mentoring in my life that is 30 years ahead of me, so I know what they're doing and they can, they can speak into it. So I'm just using finances as one example of that, but you can apply it to all of the different examples and say if I invest into me, then and and people around me, then I know that I will always get a return on that investment.

Speaker 2: 42:21

No, I love that. Where can, uh, where can people connect with you and learn about what you have? You have going on.

Speaker 1: 42:26

Yeah, Uh, LinkedIn is always a great place. You know, uh, I love just a platform of of business leaders. It's just a different understanding, right, Like this is what we're we're. We're growing businesses together, we're investing into that community in that way. So I love LinkedIn. And then Instagram is more on the personal side. Right, You'll see more about my family, You'll see about more of my interests, but I'll I'll respond either way direct messages in either of those platforms and we'd love to continue a conversation with anybody that wants to have one.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to hop on and, guys, make sure that if you're listening, if you got anything out of this which I know, if you say you didn't, you are lying, because even I did Right, and it's one of those things that make sure you guys share this with your circle. This is the easiest way to not help us out, but help your circle out, right? You know, this is an investment into your circle by giving them some knowledge to help them grow and, in return, it helps your entire circle grow, which lifts you up as well in your investment into them. So, with that being said, make sure you guys share this episode with a friend, ken. Again, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day.

Speaker 1: 43:36

Thanks, devin, it was great.

Speaker 2: 43:46

Love the conversation, man. We'll definitely keep in touch soon, yeah.