187. Growers Not Showers! Pivoting with Purpose, How To Transform Failure into Innovation w/ Rob Lion

What makes a truly memorable leader? Dr. Rob Lion believes it's someone who creates work environments that energize people rather than drain them – a philosophy he's developed through his fascinating journey from academic to multi-business entrepreneur.

In this soul-stirring conversation, Dr. Lion shares how he navigated the challenging transition from economic development expert to cycling studio owner, restaurateur, and finally to the leadership consultant he is today. His candid stories about COVID destroying businesses he'd built from scratch offer rare insights into the resilience required to pivot when everything seems lost.

"I realized everything's learned," Dr. Lion explains, describing his epiphany that entrepreneurship wasn't an innate gift but rather a skill anyone could develop with the right mindset. "It's usually us that gets in our way." This growth perspective became foundational to his business philosophy, which he distills into the memorable phrase "give me growers, not showers" – valuing humble learners over know-it-alls.

The most valuable nugget may be Dr. Lion's insights about psychological safety in organizations. When leaders respond consistently to both triumphs and failures, team members develop the courage to admit mistakes, ask questions, and hold themselves accountable. This creates cultures where innovation thrives naturally rather than being forced.

Dr. Lion's wisdom extends beyond the workplace into personal relationships too. His "24-hour rule" with his spouse – allowing only one day to process negative emotions before moving forward – demonstrates how principles of emotional intelligence can strengthen both professional and personal connections. "We've learned to give each other permission to sit in the suck," he explains, "and it's amazing how quickly we move back out of that."

Whether you're leading a Fortune 500 company, launching your first startup, or simply trying to build stronger relationships, Dr. Lion's practical advice will transform how you approach the human side of business. Subscribe now to hear more conversations that balance mindset optimization with real-world entrepreneurial challenges.

http://www.blackriverpm.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dr. Rob Leon
• 10:09 From Academic to Entrepreneur
• 19:36 Reading Opportunities and People
• 27:00 Leadership Mistakes That Drain Teams
• 36:12 Consistency: The Ultimate Leadership Attribute
• 45:41 Growers Not Showers Philosophy
• 51:16 Work-Life Balance and Relationship Wisdom

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe. We all about that mindset. Gotta stay focused. Now go settle for the last. It's all in your head how you think you manifest. So get ready to rise, cause we about to be the best. Gotta switch it up. Gotta break the old habits. Get your mind right. Turn your dreams into habits. No negative vibes, only positive vibes. What is up, guys? Welcome to another episode of the Mindset Cafe podcast. It's your boy, devin, and today we are joined by an awesome guest, dr Rob Leon. He is a professor of human resource development. He is a leadership expert and the co-founder of Black River Performance Management. With over 20 years of experience in leadership in organizational development and performance improvement, rob has really dedicated his career to helping businesses create a work culture that really fuels the human spirit rather than drain it. So I don't want to dive too much into his story, because I want him to be the author of that and really narrate that. But without further ado, dr Rob, thank you for taking your time out to hop on and drop some knowledge today.

Speaker 2: 1:05

Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me here. I'm excited for this.

Speaker 1: 1:09

I always like to start with the backstory right. What was your childhood like and what was that journey?

Speaker 2: 1:16

That back? Huh, I'm actually Canadian. I was born north of the border. I have now lived in the US longer than I've lived in Canada, but just a really, I would say, average family, and what I mean with that is middle class parents working hard to try to do better for themselves and for the kids. Grew up playing hockey, grew up playing soccer. I think it's a given right if you're Canadian. Back then you had to play hockey when you grew up as a part of part of your rites of passage.

Speaker 2: 1:52

But, yeah, I, you know people ask at times, so tell me a little bit more. Like, what were you like in high school and things like that. And I was like, hmm, I have to think about that. I was not voted the least likely to succeed, but I also wasn't voted the least likely to succeed, but I also wasn't voted the most likely to succeed.

Speaker 2: 2:08

I'm just, I'm just right in the middle of the bell curve and, uh, school wasn't super easy for me, but I'm a hustler, like to push, like to drive, and so kind of created a nice little career out of, uh, you know, strategy. I tell people, if I didn't have a strategy, I wouldn't have made it anywhere, and that's what I'm, you know. That's how I get through the day, that's how we build our business, that's how I balance right now, working as a professor at a university as well as running a company. And so lots of balance, lots of flow, but also lots of grinding and just knowing the cycles and the routines so that I could show up every day as the best version of myself for my family and for other people I interact with.

Speaker 1: 2:53

No, definitely so. What did your parents do growing up?

Speaker 2: 2:57

Accountant and healthcare professional. Okay, yeah, so I had some introductions, introductions, some professional lines, but never. My dad, as an accountant, had his own accountancy on and off over the years and but outside of that, like you know, we you talk about entrepreneurship at times and that was just not a conversation at our dinner table no, that's what interests me with a lot of entrepreneurs is like what was that turning point, what was that mindset shift or that moment you're gonna bet?

Speaker 1: 3:30

you know you really essentially bet on yourself For you. What was that moment in your journey? Because I mean having a PhD and everything. You went the college route right, but what was?

Speaker 2: 3:40

what was the moment you're like I want to a business so there's there are moments before that that, um, that were really important and one of which was working in this economic development space at the universities. I was with trying to help companies get off the ground or relocate to certain destinations, things like that, and what I? What I found that is with my prep my academic prep, not in economic development and not in entrepreneurship but I learned to read people and learn to read opportunity and diagnose situations. So I became skilled at determining when someone would come with a pitch or an idea, the vitality or the likelihood of success behind it, and so that became a valuable tool as I moved forward and started to build systems to integrate them and work with communities and things like that.

Speaker 2: 4:32

But I remember I remember having an issue with my car and this is older us and you know I was um it just after I finished my PhD and just not having much cash to get it fixed and and and something that made me pause was look, the person I'm going to bring this car to went to school for maybe a year or two years. They learned it, they learned the issue and they're going to fix it, just like the surgeon that fixed my shoulder learned it and fixed it you know.

Speaker 2: 5:02

So I was like like everything's learned, like we're programmed, we're built in with with overarchingly the tools and the capabilities to do a lot of great things in life. It's it's usually us that gets in our way, and to me, that was a real turning moment at that point to say, look, I'm in charge of my destiny to a certain extent, right, like, and, and I can do some great things. And when especially being in those economic development circles looking around at these other startups and things like that, businesses and moms and pops, people are just going off a passion, and and they didn't even necessarily have to know how to write a business plan, how to build a business, how to lead a team, things like that. So I'm like I got a couple of things going for me here, so maybe I should get my toe in the water, and so we started to do some things indoor cycling studio that was kind of a boutique thing, which was a lot of fun and cool people, as you know, right, and in your environment.

Speaker 2: 6:01

So, and then we real estate and then COVID took, did a number on a number of our businesses, and then our consultancy took off during COVID, and so it was one of those things that I was like I don't want to fix bikes anymore. I'm just going to go and train and consult and do this. I miss the, the, the, the world we had, the team we had and the community we had with some of these other businesses, but I just dove into the consulting stuff full-time.

Speaker 1: 6:36

You said something really interesting earlier and I want to dive into it. You said you were able to read opportunities and see the validity and opportunities. Can you explain that a little bit Sure.

Speaker 2: 6:49

So one of the challenges people experience is this kind of concept of attribution, error or misjudgment, and they misattribute factors to variables that aren't necessarily accurate or true, right. So I'll give you an example that I shared with someone earlier today. Could have a leader that says, look, I'm good, I don't need help, I got it all under control, my team's awesome. Well, just because the team's awesome and it seems like things are flowing really well doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you as that particular leader. It could just be the dynamics of the team, the culture, the things that are occurring there. It could just be the dynamics of the team, the culture, the things that are occurring there. So, ultimately, your team's one poor hire away from potentially falling apart, right. And so people not uncommon for them to inaccurately, in their mind, represent the appeal of something right.

Speaker 2: 7:54

Let's take wedding photographers. It's just a simple example. Lots of money to be made there or at least there was before cell phones came around right. But when you think about you're just, that's your service line. How many repeat customers are you going to have on that service line? Right? Whereas if it's a fitness facility and we're trying to drive fitness goals and stuff, people are going to come back day in and day out, to to build a capacity, and if they stop, they're going to come back or they might not. They might go somewhere else, but there there's a routine of how people live that integrates this consumership into their life. Whereas, going back to that, the photography group, how many times are you going to get married? And you know, I've been married more than once and I didn't hire a photographer the second time.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Let me tell you that, right, like it's one of those things that people sometimes move into, things with an unrealistic expectation of the impact their product can have, and I remember us even sitting down and doing the projections on the cycling studio, and this is what a day pass will bring us versus membership and all these things. And if you're not careful and you don't check yourself, it can really grow and become something that it's it's really not likely to become. So it's. It's a you know. It's good to surround yourself with people that can ask questions. It's good to be kind of growth minded and be open minded to the fact that look, devin, I want to do this, this, let's just say I want to go back to the market. But the same thing again with this boutique company, and you have all this experience in your industry. You'd be a great sounding board for me, right?

Speaker 2: 9:28

and so I see a lot of people actually insulate themselves with yesers or yes men or people that aren't comfortable to disagree and then that's where we see people get into trouble with some of these, these startup problems and and business launches no, definitely, and it is uh, it.

Speaker 1: 9:47

People will look at it, as you know, through the lens. They want to look at it and they only look at, like this offers endless opportunity. I'll say right, and and they don't take into consideration some of the limiting factors or some of the? Hey, you need to consider these things. And I mean it's like, for example, when you move out of your house for the first time, you know you're a teenager and you got to move out. Well, you didn't realize that. You know, not only do you pay for water power, but you pay for, you know, the, the, the trash trucks, the trash trucks to come pick up the trash and you're like wait, why do I pay for that? You know, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:20

That's a great great.

Speaker 1: 10:21

So you had a realization one day, didn't you exactly? You know it's not, it's not a flat rate to move out all of a sudden. It's all these little hidden things that you're like oh, like, I'm gonna be eating top ramen and protein powder for the next month. You know, yeah, exactly, that is literally a true story. Um, so you?

Speaker 2: 10:41

get hungry. That way don't you, you, you hustle.

Speaker 1: 10:44

Oh yeah, a hundred percent. That was my first life lesson moved out and I was like, well, I get protein from my uncle has you know works with supplement company. I get protein for half off and I was like top ramen's a dollar. I was like this is going to make it work, yeah, um, but no. It's so interesting though, because I do want to dive into the whole. You know you had a few businesses, and then obviously the unfortunate event of COVID, and you had to shut some of them down. Luckily, one of them turned out to flourish. But what was that mindset or that mental kind of time frame when you actually had to close down businesses due to those circumstances?

Speaker 2: 11:26

There are a couple of things that are occurring simultaneously. So the cycling studio straight up was cannibalized by COVID, right. We just didn't know what the end was. We didn't feel comfortable having people in that type of location breathing all over each other, right, but we had this what I'd call micro restaurant.

Speaker 2: 11:47

What I also learned during that time then I moved out of that at the same time was that owner-operated is much. Where do your resources go when you're not owner-operated, right? And then how does that person embody your vision and deliver on your vision?

Speaker 1: 12:07

And that was a huge learning experience for me that.

Speaker 2: 12:10

I couldn't just because we had cash available to do that.

Speaker 2: 12:14

We could pay the person, but we couldn't help them think like us, and so that was a real learning moment there too. And so there were all these different mixed emotions going on at the same time, because some things were market conditions, some things were beyond our control altogether, and so it was if I'm going to protect my sanity and my wellbeing, because I was spending a lot of time with at that time we had three different well, if you had the consultancy, four different businesses at that same time, and I was still teaching at the university, so I like I'd leave work, go to the restaurant, leave work, go from there, teach a class in the spin studio, right, like just all these things, and they were all within the same ecosystem. We had a co-working business too, there. That was a part of this, but it was just like I got to figure out what. What do I need to do to prioritize my energy so I can be better for the businesses I'm focusing on and the people in my life outside that?

Speaker 2: 13:16

because just because if we had a, successful business at the end of the day and I was a jerk to everyone at home, that wasn't worth it either. That wasn't the answer. So it was a lot going on but, you know, a testament to what I started with, it was important to step back and have people in my life to kind of unpack these things with, to give me some, you know, redirection, some perspective, because, just like the clients I work with, I was too close to a bunch of it to know. You know I can navigate the path but I really couldn't see what the options were and the liabilities were necessarily.

Speaker 1: 13:56

No, and that's huge, like it almost goes into like with you have walking the walk.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Right, you've walked the walk and that's the biggest aspect is there's so many coaches, there's so many consultants that read a book, got a certificate or whatever and they've never gone through that journey and there's there's more to it than just numbers on paper. There's more like, there's the mindset of it, there's the actual emotional ties that go to it and you have living that. I mean this is one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on, because I typically don't bring on um and try not to bring on coaches, coaches and consultants, because there's so many of this gray area, but after us meeting and talking, it's like you're, you're one of the few that has lived the life and is now, you know, helping others, try to live that life as well, which is huge. So what I want to, what I want to know, is you've launched I mean you, you mentioned the micro restaurant and you've launched several ventures in different industries restaurant, cycling, studio, you know, even to a nonprofit, you know, I believe, right.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Yep, yep, so I forgot about that one.

Speaker 1: 15:08

So what are some of the biggest takeaways about starting and sustaining a business that you could give someone?

Speaker 2: 15:20

Oh gosh. So the growth mindset piece is super important, right? So, um, as a, as a small business owner, it's tempting to run everything yourself, but at the same time there's opportunities that you can grow into certain functions. And then I'm not proposing like I need to be. I could be a marketing expert and I could just learn that. Because I clearly can't. I have to hire someone because it takes too much time. But, just like the fixing the engine thing, there's things that I can learn that would actually serve my business better. So, for example, um, I'm super introverted, but I've learned the skills and developed the capacity to have more of an extroverted personality to connect with people, whether that's to promote products, drive sales, just do different things. And if I didn't possess that, if I didn't develop that, how would I get the message out about the work I'm doing or the product line I'm selling, right? So the mindset piece is huge of that. Let's see what else is big.

Speaker 2: 16:29

The opportunity recognition piece is really important. You know, talk to people that are in similar industries, similar space, get that feedback, get some coaching maybe if you need that and and you know, coaching can be expensive, but for for certain groups, you just trade service lines in terms of what you're going to do to help the other person, to help you, things like that. To me, a lot of it had. A lot of my grounding was was tied to people in my network at that time and my guys and they showed up and they helped and, like I said, they provided perspective that I needed because we had a relationship that was open enough to say look, I need to know if you guys think this is a bad idea, because you're my litmus test of what's going on out there in the market, and so I need to hear from you first, as opposed to learning the hard way.

Speaker 2: 17:25

So, surrounding yourself by good people. So those are a couple things that come to mind right off the bat.

Speaker 1: 17:33

And it's not for everyone right.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Like it's. Being a business owner can be really tough and really grueling, and your time's worth something, and so you have to balance that in terms of what is my time worth versus what I'm potentially not selling or doing or potentially giving away to grow my business, and so there's a dance there and every industry is different as it relates to that.

Speaker 2: 17:58

But you know, as a consultant I've come into help micro brews um restaurants, health care, beauty and wellness, like all these different industries kind of navigate some of that space, especially around how humans behave.

Speaker 1: 18:11

So so getting a little perspective in that area is helpful no, definitely and all like, every business industry has their own niche and their own. You know way to do things and stuff like that, but at the end of the day it boils down to business as business, and take the same lesson and tweak it to fit the mold. But I think it's so huge what you mentioned about time, how your time is worth something, and that's the one thing that I'm like it isn't for everyone. With the mental drain and realizing, you know that, even like in my position now, I tell people they're like, oh, it's so cool, you know you're, you know you're running this company, and I'm like, yeah, but I'm not. Like my team tells me what they need and now I go figure out how to make that a possibility or a reality.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Right, I'm just a problem solver. Now I focus on the growth and you know, solving fires, right, but the timeline for each person necessarily isn't the same. And this is where I think it's interesting, because it's like, yes, your time is worth something. Because it's like, yes, your time is worth something. But also, if you are expecting that payment straight out the gate, there is a give you need to be willing to make so that you can get paid that you know at a certain time.

Speaker 2: 19:31

Yeah, if I can speak to that a bit, because because of the consulting world I work in, I've had a number of new consultants referred on to me for kind of feedback and perspective taking. And you know to your point there, like there's a pipeline process here, right, there's this pipeline process of building clientele and if you have something that people need immediately and you're the first in town or you're the best in town, not so much of a problem. Most of us aren't the first or the best right, and so when we're coming in we have to grow. You're the best in town, not so much of a problem. Most of us aren't the first or the best right, and so when we're coming in we have to grow to be the best to take our market share.

Speaker 2: 20:07

But I've you know I've given away lots of time, lots of services, and I still do today, like you could go on and sign up on my calendar and just get connected, problem, no charge, um. But the other side of it is I'm I'm seeing what the fruits of that labor is bearing, and so I I'm constantly monitoring how much. What's our return on this giveaway? Essentially and and it was a lot the return was a lot lower in the front end, but it built momentum and recognition and so that helped.

Speaker 2: 20:45

And I was fortunate in the sense of I had a day job too, right. So it's, you know, when people are talking about startups and getting going and launching, especially a smaller business, and they don't need to be in a service location all day, they can do some of the work virtually, things like that. I'm a really strong proponent of moonlighting to build your capacity to build that pipeline for a year while you already have your stability in that day job. If you need income, right. If you need stability, if you need healthcare until you can start to stability, if you need healthcare until you can start to snowball that into you know, repeat or or constant new client activity.

Speaker 1: 21:28

No, definitely. And like to aid what you're saying also because I think this is such a crucial topic. You know, because you can't be, even if you are the first in town, you're not the best in town yet. Like, just because you're the first doesn't mean you're the best. Like no one knows. Like you, becoming the best means that you've built up clientele or you've built up a customer list and so forth. So that takes time. Like, for example, I mean I'm in the gym industry, the fitness industry, you're, you know, you were in the cycling studio. It's like, even though you might get customers on day one, right, that doesn't mean your overhead and everything is, you know, paid off. Like people think that entrepreneurship is you build it, they will come and you're a millionaire right out the gate. Yeah, you know, and it. That's not, that's not how this game works still ramen.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Right, there is a ramen and protein powder luckily, yeah, I'm out of that phase and everything, but there is a timeframe.

Speaker 1: 22:23

That that's why it's valuable to others to become an entrepreneur, because they see what the end looks like, but they don't have a view of that middle. Basically, you're going through that pipeline to get out on the other side, right, and it's like that. That's in that people don't understand that sometimes it might be a month, it might be six months, it might be three years for you to get out on that other end, because you're in your own way a lot of the times, right. You know, I didn't hire a mentor for our first, you know, year and a half in business and that was me getting in my own way, thinking that I needed to solve every problem because I thought entrepreneurs did it themselves, right, and that was a. That was a huge learning curve, that was a ego getting put aside and, you know, having the humility to ask for help, and that's one of the biggest things and that's where I want to kind of dive into. The next thing that you talk about is, you know your work should fuel your human spirit and not drain it.

Speaker 2: 23:22

Yeah, so when you were talking there, one of the things that I was thinking of that was really coming to mind is what's your timeframe to measure your success here? Right, because at what point is all the money I invested a sunk cost and it's time to exit? Right? And and the other thing that occurred to me is that markets shift really fast. You could be the first.

Speaker 2: 23:46

I I remember moving to these small communities. There was no real gym other than, say, the campus gym, and people didn't want to go to it. So anytime, anytime would pop up, and then then it wasn't long until finally someone someone as an entrepreneur built their own gym and they were able to offer a greater service line, greater customer experience, stuff like that, so that that that pre-baked gym model like just kind of became flat and old, right? So, yeah, I think you have to know when enough is enough to preserve. You know yourself like you got to protect yourself.

Speaker 2: 24:25

It's, it's stressful and we all handle stress differently, um, but sometimes but it usually leads us to less desirable spaces, right, whether that's related to food or drinking, or body dysmorphia, in terms of the stresses, is affecting us in different areas, damaging relationships, stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 24:45

So what is this initiative worth versus what's of value to you and that's one of the things I really try to focus on, and that's the same thing we focus on with our clients in all sorts of industries is what is that on the user level, as an employee? What is that experience like for you, as let's just take your team right For your team members, do they feel exhausted and run down at the end of the day and they're coming back because it's a job and they need to feed themselves or their family? Or are they leaving with their tank half full still and they're going home? They're being present with their family, their friends, they're getting to the gym themselves to get a workout in, because that's important to them, things like that. So to me, it's really important for us to take stake of all these factors as we're trying to run these companies.

Speaker 1: 25:35

No, definitely, I mean you're not, you're trying to. You're not trying to. I mean, for us, we do try to fill our employees cups, right, but that in a way, in a way of, you know, teaching and motivating and so forth and giving them extra tools that they can not only use here but other places and later in life, you know, if they so please. But it's truly just caring about the employee instead of thinking of them just as a workhorse kind of thing. And that's why I want to kind of ask my next question is as a leader, you're trying to fill your cup, you're trying to build a business, you're trying to do all this for you. But what are some of the biggest mistakes, whether it's with employees or just in business in general? What are some of the biggest mistakes leaders make with leadership? You know that drain that motivation and productivity from their employees.

Speaker 2: 26:26

I think sometimes they they believe that the people that work with them believe in the same values or the prospects or the the the potential of the organization, especially for like, like a small business or startup ownership thing. I know my team.

Speaker 2: 26:49

They're great but they don't have the same vested interest in this company, as I do, and that's one of the things to forget. But just as I say that the other side of the coin is, don't think that you love this necessarily more than anyone else too, because they could very well show up and give it love in a different direction, in a different way, and you need that perspective so that you service your clients, your customers, your patrons very well. So that's one of the things that comes to mind for me. Yeah, anything else related to that you want to jump into?

Speaker 1: 27:20

No, I well, yes, but that I do want to say. I do agree with what you're saying and it's this was one of those realizations and talks I had with my business partner was that him not coming from an entrepreneurial background and and us having that talk in the beginning with our first few employees, because he was almost the bottleneck in terms of you know, instead of teaching an employee how to do something, he was like I can do it better or they're not going to care about it as much as me. And I was like dude, you can't think about it that way. Like you got to let them flourish and essentially pour water on the seed so it can grow.

Speaker 1: 27:56

I was like, but at the same time, like you never know what other people have going on outside, right. So the way I think about it is like what if someone didn't have a father figure, right? And now they're coming into work and you're coaching them, you're motivating them, you're giving them praise, but you're giving them correction as well. And now they're actually, they see the vision of the business and everything, but they're tied into this because this is their family. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

Speaker 2: 28:24

One of the things that's easy to forget is what does it mean to be human in and of yourself, right and so as the owner? If I could just think back when I was an employee, I don't like being yelled at, I don't like tough talks or just pull yourself up by the bootstraps type of thing. There's a level of compassion and support and reciprocation that was important for me. I would be making a mistake if I didn't recognize that that's actually a human condition in many instances and that our people need an element of that.

Speaker 2: 28:59

I might be busy, but I also need to know how to pause and check in with Devin to make sure Devin's doing great, Make sure Devin has what he needs, so that Devin feels comfortable to ask questions, comfortable to come to me for perspective, for resources, or comfortable to come to me when you make a mistake. Right, Because it's a growing period for a lot of people. And so I really see to your point like the seeds in the water. We're in this cult of, if we're doing this well, we're building and leading a business, but we're also cultivating people to be better humans and to go home and love better and support better and be better community members. And so we're concurrently building a community, and that's how I like to talk about it In our organization. We're building a community because communities members look out for each other. This is not a transactional experience where everyone's just coming in, punching in, getting their own and moving on out to go home. That people have some basic psychological needs and one of them is connection and they need it somewhere.

Speaker 2: 30:05

and I say this and it's it's tough to hear but just because you're married doesn't necessarily mean you have the connection you need back home, and so the workplace performs a very important role in socialization and giving people connection, and so it's something that it might not be important to me as maybe an introvert or as a person that just wants to hustle and grind. But I can't, I can't, that can't be the case for my team. Another way to talk about something like this is goal setting. I'm not whatever my makeup is, whatever my design is is.

Speaker 2: 30:40

I'm not a very specific goal setter. I kind of go I see the targets and I I really work to achieve targets but I'm not really measuring things by goals and checkpoints and milestones.

Speaker 2: 30:52

But it doesn't mean that my team doesn't need that right, so one of the things we do with, with with organizations, is we bring them to goal setting, work, and why setting goals on tasks and jobs and outcomes are important because they provide a foundation for clarity between the individual and the leader. Well, just because I don't need them doesn't mean my staff wouldn't benefit from it. So it's one of those other examples. So I think about it in terms of the entrepreneurs listening Like how are you accurately and clearly communicating with your team so that they truly understand what it is that you want accomplished?

Speaker 2: 31:29

Right, because no one can read my mind, no one can read your mind, and when a younger version of myself remembers, you know being frustrated with why can't they just figure this out? It's so clear. You know what I mean, and and it's it's not because they see the world through their own lenses and their own experiences, and so I gotta find a system to help bring them along with me right, and then realizing that system has to be adaptable as well, because each person learns different, and and everything at that.

Speaker 1: 31:59

But what one of the things I learned as well, you know, through my entrepreneurial experience is like almost what Jocko Willings talks about in his book. You know the dichotomy of leadership. It's like, when you view it, you're like if your team is struggling, you could blame them for struggling, or you can reflect and be like man, maybe I didn't give them all the tools that they needed, right? And so one of the biggest things that I do is ask hey, you know, this was supposed to be done this way. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough or maybe I didn't, you know, you know, teach you how to do that. Like, let's go over it. Or just asking them like, hey, what, what do I need to do? Or what, what can I help you with to help improve your job, improve your what's it called your ease of work? Right, how can I make your life easier? And let them tell you right, because once you ask, a lot more people are willing to tell you.

Speaker 1: 32:53

A lot of people are scared, employees are scared to ask for help. But if you're asking them, what can I do to help you. Then they're more willing to give you the, the raw meat that's on the floor like, hey, this is what life is really like down here, right, uh, yeah, and so my next question is you've worked with, you know, some startups as well as some fortune 500 companies, uh, and I wanted to kind of see is there common traits between the successful leaders of the startups and the fortune 500, or is there? Is it kind of see, is there common traits between the successful leaders of the startups and the fortune 500, or is there? Is it kind of like night and day different?

Speaker 2: 33:27

uh, the thing that's really consistent is that connection element that the team feels like they have a connection with their leader so that they can ask questions and the. The other piece that plays into this is the concept of psychological safety, that people are living and working in an environment that I guess they're not living in the environment they're existing in this work environment where their questions are appreciated, they're valued, they're not afraid of retaliation or retribution or being marginalized, and so that is true in every organization and every size.

Speaker 2: 34:03

When I see things successful. Another piece of this is and if this is a takeaway for anyone listening I think the most important leadership attribute whether it's your startup, it's your Fortune 500, whatever it is is consistency. To be consistent, because what happens is your team now knows how you're going to react to good news and bad, and that is empowering in and of itself, right? So you mentioned asking questions. Well, one of the big challenges with asking questions is sometimes we don't have the language or we don't know what we don't know. So you know, I know I'm not hitting the mark, but I don't really know what I need help with, right and so.

Speaker 2: 34:45

So there's a lot of imposed, self-imposed pressure because they don't want to disappoint the boss, because they're afraid of how things might turn out. Well, when we have consistent leaders, we actually have good, we have a level of accuracy, we know how they're going to behave good news or bad. And then the second point of it is that when you have culture on your side, when it's high quality, it's a lot easier for people to say, hey, boss, man, I messed up, I need some help here, or, sorry, team, I let you down. And they hold accountability to each other, not just to the person that's cutting the paycheck.

Speaker 1: 35:26

No, definitely, definitely. And I think sometimes, even as business owners, we get scared to ask questions or ask what they need help with, because we don't want to know the fires. We don't want to, you know, and we want, we want to think that, we want to think that the way we did it the first time is the best way, and we're scared of what, the what, the real answer is Right, and so I. It's almost taking that humility to realize that you probably didn't build it the best way the first time and that doesn't mean that you can't improve. So you just got to, you know, ask. But I wanted to go into a funny topic, you know, or a funny, I guess, aspect, the way you word it is you talk about give me growers, not showers. Can you explain that philosophy a little bit?

Speaker 2: 36:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we should probably put some context to this, right, Because I know what everyone else is thinking right now. So I was doing a CEO retreat in the mountains and I was giving a spiel and I was kind of on my soapbox and I said give me growers, not showers, and the room just went silent. I had a couple people blush and then other people just started to grin, right? So what we're talking about there and this is from the blog that's on the Black River website right, that is talking about mindset.

Speaker 2: 36:39

I want people that are open-minded, growth mindset. I don't need people that want to show me how smart they are or how important they are. There's an element of humility and trainability that's super important to me. If you're curious, come along for the ride. I'll take you with me If you know it all, and even if you're a potential client. I don't want to with me If you know it all.

Speaker 2: 37:00

And even if you're a potential client, I don't want to work with you If you know it all my best clients are actually we call them partners and they they approach me saying, hey, I know my craft, I know my industry. Let's just take you as an example this, this health and wellness industry, and I have actually a client here in town that has both of those and they know their stuff. They don't need me to help them with floor plan and flow and stuff like that and but they need help creating a better environment for their team. They need help hiring better talent, onboarding town according to the culture they espouse, to right these things, these things that and these are the best relationships. It's kind of like having a dance partner that just moves with you because they look to you for advice, they look to you for support. Right, they really are forthcoming with their limitations and overextensions, their obstacles, and it's a real nice fluid conversation going back and forth and trust grows really nicely.

Speaker 1: 38:00

I like it and, honestly, I'm surprised the room was silent, because I would have been laughing.

Speaker 2: 38:07

They were a couple off guard.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Maybe I'm just a little childish, but if said that I would have cracked up, yeah, that that that's funny. But I love the, the meaning behind it and everything like that and I'm a huge that analogy person and I love like the symbolisms and stuff and when you can catch someone off guard with that, everyone's like a little innuendo doesn't hurt you right, exactly, and those are the best, so I love that I had to ask yeah, you know that's great.

Speaker 1: 38:36

So going into, you know, the growers and the showers, right with businesses, right. Balancing individual development right from a team level in relation to basically company performance right, how does it? How does basically building an individual or pouring into an individual, whether it's setting to retreats or so forth, how can that affect company performance and the goals?

Speaker 2: 39:04

Right. So we look at things at the individual level, the team level and then the organizational level, and when we work with organizations, we have to be mindful of what those needs are at each of those levels so that we build our strategy to account for that. Because I could build corporate or organizational goals and ambitions, but if I don't consider and this is one of the problems with a lot of strategic planning processes they happen in kind of in isolation, with people at the top of the food chain and they don't necessarily realize that there's inputs, there's people, there's resources that are going to affect the efficacy of the work that goes into that, and so it's important that we actually handle these at each level. So for what at that, at that base level, what is the culture you're trying to work to establish and and what is the relationship between what we're doing to individual needs in terms of?

Speaker 2: 40:04

this is a job, like as the owner, I'm super invested. These are people that aren't the owners and I got to recognize that, for what it's worth, it doesn't mean they wouldn't, you know, do anything they can to support the organization. But same time I have to be a little bit more mindful that what are the? What am I trying to do with them and am I, am I taking liberties of their time and energy and am I sending them home run down as opposed to being healthy and happy? So we start at the individual slash, team level, to start to begin to establish some vocabulary, some understanding of behaviors, performance, personality, ambitions, things like that. So like even something as simple as a values activity.

Speaker 2: 40:48

I think there's a lot of value in breaking the ice in your organization by integrating a values activity. Value in breaking the ice in your organization by integrating a values activity so your people could share with each other what their top three, four, five values are. But then we roll that into the team what's our team values? Because what they're trying to do is starting to establish some expectations and pieces that they could land on and lean on as a team, as sort of guiding principles for practice, and then that moves on up into some of the organizational pieces, and so there are things that we need to do. We need to help people at an individual level with emotional intelligence. It's not something that we're born possessing and it's a super important skill that has great returns on that investment.

Speaker 2: 41:33

So if we can cultivate that in our team, collectively we're not sending them off by themselves to learn this let's do this as a group, let's do this as a team. We're in this together. We're starting to establish a base of conversation, baseline conversation, right, Because one of the things we have to be mindful of, language is one of our biggest limiting factors. So if we just took a team of 10 and we said what's your definition and I use this term all the time motivation you get 10 different definitions. There's going to be some overlap. But let's just start there. Like, if we can't agree on that necessarily, how do we agree on anything else? And so what we try to do is build a foundation of what is it that we mean when we talk about motivation, emotional intelligence, communication tactics, strategies, behavioral preferences, things like that. So now I have a better understanding of myself, so I'm increasing self-awareness, but as a part of that journey, I'm cultivating social awareness.

Speaker 2: 42:33

I'm having an understanding of what my behaviors have impact on outside of myself and starting to realize that, well, I don't live in a vacuum. I can't just say whatever I want to say, or I'm not the only one that has a bad day, that other people around me are. And so how am?

Speaker 2: 42:48

I showing up for them once I take care of myself. So it's scaffolding and it's building into the team-based levels. Our goal is that when we leave the organization, that they actually are done with us and that their team coaching around these principles and concepts that we integrate so that they're keeping it alive, because we want every expense to actually be an investment of those funds so that that team's getting what they need out of it. And so, yes, individual level, team level, um, organizational level. But I'll tell you one thing I do.

Speaker 2: 43:23

I do have an issue with and and I talk to groups about this is what's your level of commitment to professional development funds for team members? And and a lot of people kind of look at me, kind of what would you mean? I'm like, well, are you sending people to conferences? Are you sending people to trade shows? What do you? Where are you sending people? Because there's a sticker price to that. Right, it might be five grand to go to Vegas for a week, right, and so have you?

Speaker 2: 43:53

Have you determined what that value is for your organization? Because if we've set aside, say, a budget for 10 people at $5,000 each or $2,000 each, let's just use five it's $50,000 of an investment there. What is that return on that investment? Sometimes we just have to be there, right? We have to be there to learn what's going on in the industry. It's our mechanism to bring information back. But sometimes we send people with the belief that they're going to bring something back that never gets brought back because they only heard about it in a 45-minute session. Maybe, or they might come back with good information, but I can't, or I'm not as a leader, adjusting their workflow to integrate the new idea Right.

Speaker 2: 44:37

So if you think about it in terms of launching a new service line and they're already doing two people's jobs, how are they going to integrate that into the job? So one of the things we talk about is let's look at that budget and determine what's a value out of it. And if it's nothing more than I want them to have a good experience and feel valued, that's worth something. That's a value out of it. And if it's nothing more than I want them to have a good experience and feel valued, that's worth something. That's a decision the organization gets to make. But the other side of it is could we actually scale that back? Maybe protect, say, 30 000 to do a team and organizational investment that's on site, or can we take those funds and take your entire leadership team down to, you know, southern California at a retreat center or something you know what I mean Like. So being very purposeful of how we spend those funds as it relates to development will get us much closer to the outcomes we're hoping to accomplish.

Speaker 1: 45:27

No, I honestly I love that. And so I mean the final, final question before the main question, right, and, and the question really goes into we don't live in a vacuum, and and everything that you're saying. And so I want to get your take on this too, because I have a business partner, right, but I also have a wife, my business partner has a wife, and so what is, I guess? I guess I want to say, like, how do you balance you with all your business ventures, with your wife and you know you guys doing so much what is the secret to balancing work, your guys's marriage, your guys's personal lives, both as both, as you know, you guys being business partners, but then individually?

Speaker 2: 46:17

Yeah, yeah. So we have a couple of things. We have a level of maturity in our relationship that I never had when I was younger. But part of that is because we call ourselves do-overs. We're remarried. We were married to other people before before. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons. We took cues and did the self-work associated with that. What was my role in a lot of this stuff? But I'll tell you we do work in personality and behavioral areas, so we'll run diagnostics and assessments on people. If we didn't have that background, I don't think we'd be, despite our wisdom, today we wouldn't be together. Background I don't think we'd be. Despite our wisdom today we wouldn't be together. Our, our styles are so different that it would be easy to let our emotions run away with with how we feel the other person's being and I know I can be really really like nitpicky and critical and but that's part of my wiring right.

Speaker 2: 47:15

I'm also super detail oriented in a positive way and that brings value to us. But it's easy to see how, if we didn't have this understanding of each other and the tools to learn how to communicate about these things and work through these things together, we would have just hung up the you know, we would have just hung up the sign and close shop and and went our own separate ways because we still wouldn't have been able to connect in a manner that we needed to connect. So for us, we have that framework, we have that tool. We actually do this with people. We do family retreats, we do couples retreats, we do couples things like this on Zoom to help them understand and to smooth over areas and build that self-awareness as well as awareness of each other.

Speaker 2: 47:58

But the other piece that I think super important, two other things, but again one we realize we can't fill each other's cups all the way. She needs her friends and I need my things in my life, right, and so we're not pretending that, that we are each other's, that we are each other's everything. We are each other's a lot and it's been a lot of fun, but she needs to go out and be with her girlfriends. I need to go out and you know, walk the rivers with my friends and do my fishing and hiking and stuff like that and then. So we really embrace the fact that we need other people in our lives to help us feel whole. The last thing we have and we have this agreement, and actually you mentioned growers and showers If you go back to the blog page, there's one that says did that feedback sting?

Speaker 2: 48:41

You have 24 hours to get over it. And all those blogs are kind of light, tongue in cheek, kind of fun reads. But we have this agreement that we can only be pissed off for 24 hours. But what we do is because what we recognize is, if you're not familiar with the concept of emotion contagion, it's just like a contagious cold or a flu. I could pick it up from someone else, right. And so if I come in, just like you, if you go into the office one day and you're pissed off because you got cut off in traffic and then things just kept falling apart on your way in, that energy is going to follow you into the facility, right, and your people are going to pick it up right away and they could have all been happy and joyous and good mood. And then all of a sudden, the energy of the group and the place just sucks, right.

Speaker 2: 49:32

Motion contagion. Well, we have that in our households. I come home from work really pissed off one day. She, she and I hate it. I hate how this happens. I come home, she's so happy to see me and I'm just, I'm an ass, like I, just I'm totally hijacked by some emotional event and then, before I know it, she's pissed off and down and, you know, ticked off about it and so and that's not fair to her.

Speaker 1: 49:58

So what we've done is.

Speaker 2: 50:00

we've done this thing that you know I come in the front door and I'm ticked off, and or I just not feeling it, and so she. She asks how I'm doing and I tell her I'm not doing well and so little tongue-in-cheek, she says, well, you have 24 hours to get over it, and with a smile, a hug, and then we go our separate ways and and what we know is that if I want to talk about it, she'll sit down and talk with me but sometimes I just need to go sit on the deck and let you know, let it pass through me, and then she goes on to do a project or maybe start dinner or something, and this is vice, vice versa.

Speaker 2: 50:33

We do, we both do it, but what we found in doing this is that once we've acknowledged it with each other and said, essentially, you have 24 hours to get over this, we're giving each other permission to sit in the suck, and it's actually amazing how quickly we move back out of that. So the idea is that in 24 hours from now, you know you've moved through it. It's temporary, it's not the end of the world, and so that's been a really powerful piece for us to have open, honest conversations with each other and and to recognize that we're not the same people and she she might not be having a good day, and I might be, but it's okay.

Speaker 2: 51:12

We'll support each other but also stay away from each other a little bit.

Speaker 1: 51:16

No, honestly, I love that. That's that's, that's so powerful too. I mean not not just being business partners, but being even if I mean I know I'm not easy to be married to with my wife, right, and it's not. It's not that you know I'm difficult to think of it, but being married to an entrepreneur let alone both you guys being entrepreneurs it is a life for a spouse that is also not meant for everyone Exactly, and we've learned to mature through certain things, that we have different processes as well, but you learn as you go.

Speaker 1: 51:51

But the biggest thing is communication, and that doesn't mean you need to sit there and talk it out, because I'm not a talker, right, and so for us it was one of those things where I need to let her know, like I just need to go work out or go do something, like I need to just be in my own head for a minute and then I'm good to go. And for her it was like I just need to vent or whatever, and you don't, I don't and I do not want a solution, because me I always go to solutions, right, yeah, and then, and then, all of a sudden, I'm the one getting in trouble and I was like I don't understand why I'm in trouble. You, you had a problem, I'm giving you solutions, and it's like yeah right, you know, so you're not reading between the lines here.

Speaker 2: 52:31

Very well, right, yeah?

Speaker 1: 52:32

Yeah, exactly, I'm like this is the easy solution. Just do this, this and this, it's solved. And she was like you don't get it. And I was like now I don't, but that is so, so crucial. And now for the big question. Right, yeah, that question is and I will preface this by saying it is not a tombstone, okay, right, and I will preface this by saying it is not a tombstone, okay, right, yeah, even though I say that people still give me sometimes a tombstone answer and we have to do this over again. Yeah, yeah. So this is the Rob Leon legacy wall, right, yeah, legacy, not not meaning anything, connoting to relate legacy. This is just essentially a quote wall. Right, connotates her legacy. This is just essentially a quote wall, right? What is the one quote or message that you would leave for the up-and-coming generations that you've learned along your life's journey?

Speaker 2: 53:28

wow, that's a tough one. There's so, so many things, but you know service to others is huge and you know I think about in terms of what. What do I hope actually? You know you said the tombstone type of thing I think about. It's also like that, like what is the impact I want to have left on others and he brought us together and he was there for us and if I could kind of unpack that backwards into you know especially since my boys are in their teens.

Speaker 2: 54:01

They're in high school, getting ready to go to college stuff. It's starting to help them understand what's important, what are priorities and and that some of the most rewarding things in life have to do with others. Being a part of that journey with you.

Speaker 1: 54:18

I love that. I love that, and the reason I don't like to preface it or give it you know that ahead of time is because it's that first thing. There's so many answers and everyone tries to create this super, you know, proffer, and it's like no. What is the first thing that comes to mind? That's what resonates and is deep with you, so I love that. That is an amazing answer. Now, where can people connect with you and learn more about what you have going on and everything like that?

Speaker 2: 54:45

Cool, all right. So a couple different options LinkedIn. So if you're on LinkedIn, that's where I kind of spend most of my time in terms of social. So, first name, rob, last name Leon, as you mentioned, but it's actually spelt like lion, l, I, o, n, and so if you just throw me into the search, rob, leon or Rob Lyon or Robert, you'll find me that way. The other way to connect with us is through our website. You'll find me that way. The other way to connect with us is through our website, blackriverpmcom. So the company is Black River Performance Management, but that's way too much of a mouthful for a URL. So Black River, the letter P for performance and the letter M for managementcom. Once you get on there, book a call if you want, request services if you want, or just check us out, check out our blogs. If you go to blackriverpmcom, slash Rob. This podcast will be in the feed there among some of the other media stuff I've done, as well as the blogs and keynotes and things like that.

Speaker 2: 55:49

So yeah connect, ask questions, love helping people. We work with every industry as we tell people. We're industry agnostic, context specific, and that's what we focus on is bringing value to the people in the organization that way.

Speaker 1: 56:04

I love it. And, guys, all that will be in the show notes, it'll be in the video description. But I do want to say, make sure you guys share this episode with a friend. I know I got a lot out of it. You guys heard me engaging. Make sure you guys share this episode with a friend, cause if you guys bring your circle up, you bring your team up. It helps bring you up as well, both on a personal level but also from a team standpoint. Whether it's your home team, you know your, your relationship at home. Whether it's just your family, extended family team, send this to someone that you care about. Right, I'll leave it at that, but I want to say, rob, thank you so much again for taking the time out of your day. I know I told you it'd only go 30 minutes, but it was just it was just getting too good.

Speaker 1: 56:43

I can't be, distracted.

Speaker 2: 56:57

I stay on my grind. No time to be slackin'. I hustle harder. I go against the current Cause. I know my mind is rich to be collected.