229. Beyond the Broken: Navigating the Five Stages of Betrayal Recovery w/ Dr. Debbi Silber

Dr. Debbi Silber shares her journey from personal betrayal to becoming a leading expert in post-betrayal syndrome, revealing the predictable path to healing that can transform pain into purpose. Her groundbreaking research identifies the specific physical, mental, and emotional symptoms that affect betrayal survivors, while providing a clear roadmap through five stages of recovery that anyone can follow.

• Defining betrayal as the breaking of spoken or unspoken rules in a relationship
• Physical symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome include low energy, sleep issues, and digestive problems
• Mental symptoms include feeling overwhelmed, inability to focus, and difficulty concentrating
• Emotional symptoms include extreme sadness, anger, and most significantly, an inability to trust
• Most people get stuck in stage three (survival mode) where they numb their pain and cling to their story
• Moving to stages four and five requires letting go of what no longer serves you
• Four powerful questions to ask yourself to begin healing: Are you numbing/avoiding? What are you pretending not to see? What happens if you continue this path? What could happen if you change?
• The choice between "hard now, easy later" versus "easy now, hard later"
• Transformation begins when you tell yourself the truth

Visit the PBT Institute website to take the free Post-Betrayal Syndrome quiz and learn more about healing from betrayal.

Chapters

• 0:20 Mindset Cafe Intro
• 0:37 Dr. Debbi Silber's Betrayal Journey
• 5:21 Holistic Approach to Healing
• 11:52 Understanding Betrayal and Its Impact
• 17:27 Post-Betrayal Syndrome Symptoms
• 23:15 The Five Stages of Healing
• 31:43 Breaking Free from Stage Three
• 35:34 Legacy Message: Don't Stop

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, it's Mindset Cafe. We all about that mindset. Gotta stay focused. Now go settle for the last. It's all in your head how you think you manifest. So get ready to rise, cause we about to be the best. Gotta switch it up. Gotta break the old habits. Get your mind right. Turn your dreams into habits. No negative vibes, only positive vibes.

Speaker 2: 0:20

What is up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Mindset Cafe podcast. It's your boy, Devin, and today we are diving into a topic that hits home for so many, and that is betrayal. Right, whether it's your personal life, your relations or even in your professional world, betrayal leaves a mark. But what if there's a path not just to healing but to complete transformation? Our guest and I'm so honored to have her on because she is a doctor and she is so knowledgeable in this but Dr Debbie Silber. She is a holistic psychologist, the founder of the PBT you know, I'm getting tongue tied today PBT Institute and the leading expert on what she has coined as the post-betrayal syndrome. She is a two-time number one international bestselling author and a TEDx speaker, and she is the host of the podcast From Betrayal to Breakthrough. So, with further ado, dr Debbie, thank you so much for coming on today.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Thank you, looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:20

So I like to start every episode with a rewind and dive into your upbringing. What was your upbringing like and how did that kind of lead to where you currently are?

Speaker 1: 1:30

Yeah Well, you know you can imagine you don't study something like betrayal unless you have to. So it was. It was kind of rocky and then I had a. It was a family betrayal, so painful, thought I did what I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband that was the deal breaker. Anybody who's been through it you know. You're blindsided, devastated, shocked, and usually I go to books or courses or something to help me through things and personal development. Right and there there wasn't anything. I couldn't find anything. But I had four kids, six dogs, a business. I had to get it together. So I decided to study it at the PhD level, purely just so I could heal. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal and that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Speaker 2: 2:30

Okay. I mean, if you don't mind and if it's okay to talk about that, can we talk about what the betrayal was? I mean, it must've been strong to lead into the route that you've gone. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:36

Yeah. So with the family betrayal it was lies, deception. You feel like it's where that mask is just pulled off and you're absolutely blindsided. Didn't see it coming that kind of thing. And with my husband it was infidelity.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Okay, and so I mean and I'm sorry to hear that that's horrible first off but what I mean, were you, you started studying after, I'm assuming, the husband incident, or were you already kind of going, getting your master's in maybe a different field and switched, or?

Speaker 1: 3:12

Yeah, no, I've been in business 33 years. It was health, and then mindset and personal development and really going that route, just sort of helping people with their lifestyle and in physically, just sort of helping people with their lifestyle and physically, mentally and emotionally. But then when the betrayal happened, I just like I said I couldn't find anything to help me and I thought, if I study my way through this and if I figure out a way to and I remember this one moment too where I'm going through this program and I said I have no idea how I'm going to heal from this, but if I do, I'm taking everybody with me. I mean, I hadn't been in school in 30 years, so for me to go back for a PhD like that's a whole other part of my mind I hadn't used in decades. But I felt so called, just so called to do it. It was divine intervention for sure, called just so called to do it.

Speaker 2: 4:05

It was divine intervention, for sure. I got to say going back to get a PhD, let alone go back to school. I mean not the same instance, but I was one of the few kids that got kicked out of college for two years. I got suspended in college, you know, and it was for fraternity stuff. But going back I was on my last semester, mind you, Like I had already. You know, I had started my career as a personal trainer and it was like my hardest class, if I go back, is the history of the Olympics. It's all electives, I don't need to go back. But then it was that man like you started something, finish it. But going back after two years, even though the classes weren't difficult, it was still difficult. So I can't even imagine and I give hats off to you for going back and getting a PhD. That is mind-blowing.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Seriously, it was crazy. I went back at 50. But here's what's even crazier and, by the way, I was a personal trainer back in 91, a-certified, so probably before you were born, and that was a whole other career. That's really where it began. But I remember graduating from the PhD program and I get an email from this really nice guy and he's like oh, we're going to be graduating together. I'm like, oh great, let me know who you are, so this way we can find each other. And he goes well, remind me of your name. He goes I'm not so great with that anymore, I'm 78.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Wow, 78. So I was like what am I complaining about going back at 50? That just shows you you can do anything at any time in life. You just have to have the willingness and the courage to essentially take that step Right. And I mean I'm I'm sure it was uncomfortable for you at certain points as well, because of maybe the age gap and so forth. I remember in college I remember going for my bachelor's, that I had people that are in their 40s and their 50s getting their bachelor's as well, and for me I didn't mind it. But then I thought about it later in life and putting myself in their shoes. Imagine if you're in a room full of 21, 25-year-olds. It must feel a little bit awkward.

Speaker 1: 6:05

Well, what was really funny was, you know, I had four kids who were in school at the time and they're complaining about their work and I'm like oh, you think that's bad, you know and I'm talking about my schoolwork and stuff, but still managing my business man a great business at the time and uh, and it was so interesting because all of a sudden, the clients that were coming my way it was mostly lifestyle back then but then all of a sudden I start getting people coming my way who were trying to heal from a betrayal and I wasn't ready to share this publicly but I was doing everything the research proved I was doing. I was sort of my own case study and so I was sharing it with them. And they were heavily medicated, they were numbing, they were just a wreck. And they were like how are you doing this? And I'm like all I'm doing is what I'm learning and implementing. And that became the beginning of just one of the three really exciting discoveries.

Speaker 2: 7:01

No, I mean, that's amazing. I do want to dive out into that in one sec, but I do want to ask what was the business that you ran?

Speaker 1: 7:08

Yeah, so I was a coach for, like I said, I mean 33 years I'm in business. So it started as a personal trainer. I was a personal trainer and I created that business because I was going back to school for an MSRD, Holistic, Registered Dietitian, Master's in Nutrition and then I became a whole health coach and then a functional diagnostic nutritionist and then certified in quantum human design and quantum alignment system and I, you know, I was just a junkie for all kinds of holistic healing modalities and other stuff, to emotion code, I mean. I became certified in all these different things but when that betrayal happened I was like, oh no, no, no, I think I need a whole PhD in this.

Speaker 2: 7:51

I mean, we do have that similar in common. I don't have as many of those certifications or degrees under my belt, but it always interests me, like I literally just got my life coach certification just to get it just to. You know, when people say they're a life coach, I'm like what are they learning that you know? And it's like so I'm just interested in all those different. You know mindset development and the psychology behind things and you know all the different between fitness and you know nutrition and mindset. It's so interesting. So I love that you are a living testament to that because it shows so much. But I really want to ask too the holistic approach right In your opinion? Is there a reason to go holistic versus non-holistic, or is there a, I guess, benefit to holistic?

Speaker 1: 8:41

I always believe you're better off preventing something than having to heal from it. I mean, that was just a knowing that I had since years, decades, decades, and it just to me makes more sense. I mean, when you think about what's, when you think about the body that we have. We need to take care of it. So what's the best way to take care of it? It's a way that is supportive and natural to the body, right? Like all kinds of drugs and meds are not what we're designed to take.

Speaker 1: 9:11

And then you think about it. If we're supposed to be on a medication forever, like whose best interest is that? The body is supposed to be healthy. The body wants to be healthy. Body wants to move. You know what are we feeding it? How are we treating it? How are we working with it? But the mind is just as powerful. I see so often with a lot of health people, they're so busy being focused on the body and that's powerful. But the mind has so much to do with how the body shows up. Like, for example, 45% of everyone betrayed has a gut issue, right, crohn's, ibs, diverticulitis, you name it. And here's what's so interesting People go to the most amazing gut experts. I'm friends with a lot of them to manage. You know this digestive issue, but if at the root of it is this unhealed betrayal, what happens is we deal with the root, the gut heals. So to me we have to really manage the mind and the emotions just as much as the body.

Speaker 2: 10:10

I know it's definitely true, Like that's where I like to talk about, like the placebo effect. Right, the mind has so much to do with how your body does show up, like you're saying, because you give two groups, two test groups, one the drug one, not groups. You know, one, the drug one, not. Some people in the one that didn't have it are going to have that placebo effect and start to get some of the results because they think that they have this in their system, Right?

Speaker 1: 10:35

And you know, even in my research, I saw something like that. It's like I assumed that the people who were the hardest hit would grow the least because they had the most to overcome. That had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with it. You know, it was the ones who put their head down and said I'm not picking it up till I'm out. The other side, they blew the doors off of the ones that were numbing, avoiding, distracting, doing a bunch of other things.

Speaker 1: 10:57

So how we move through things, taking on the idea that this isn't my story, this can be a pivotal chapter in my story, but this doesn't have to be my whole story. I mean, what we do with something makes all the difference in the world. I mean, there are people who they've been betrayed. It becomes their life story, it's a whole thing and that's it and more of the same and whatever. And then there are people. We see it every single day within our community that they've taken that experience and it was the launchpad to their transformation. That was the launchpad to their new level of health, their new business, their new passion project. It all happens based on what we decide to do with it.

Speaker 2: 11:35

No, 100%. So let's dive into the betrayal part right, because I mean that's going to be what a lot of people are waiting for us to talk about. You know what kind of I guess, what, what, what are the most common forms of betrayal that can start to trigger something? Because I know there's probably a wide spectrum of betrayal feelings, but what are the most common that you've seen or that you've learned about, that people can start having basically symptoms or, or you know, being affected by yeah, well, you know.

Speaker 1: 12:03

Let me start by this. I define betrayal as the breaking of a spoken or unspoken rule, and every relationship has them. The way it works is the more we trust, the more we depend on that person, the deeper the betrayal. So, for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent, that's going to have a different level of impact than, let's say, your best friend sharing your secret right. Still, betrayals, different level of cleanup, what I see, the ones that break us. We're never broken, bent. You know what I mean. The ones that most, those are the families and the partners, because these were the people that gave us a sense of safety and security. So when the person who gives you a sense of safety and security is the very person to take it away, it's traumatizing. Those are the ones that get us the most. The other ones infuriate us, make us crazy, but they don't.

Speaker 2: 12:47

They don't have the same impact like the partners and family I know, I could definitely see that and I would even go as far as far to say like as though everyone has friends and they'll probably say they have, you know, five best friends, but you have that one best friend that you know, that ride or die that you've had for years, and everything like that, and it could I feel like it could hurt just as much from them as well. Right, because they almost feel like family.

Speaker 1: 13:13

But that's the thing. When it's, when it's that closeness of the, let's say, the same level of closest as a family member or a partner, yeah, those are the ones that devastate us. I mean, all the other ones infuriate us, make us angry. We can even get angry at you know, I remember in my research there was this thing, I think it was called the love turns to hate principle, and this was about companies. We can, let's say, there's a product that you love and then you think this product is good for you, but it actually turns out that it's not. We will turn on a company so fast because we don't want to be duped. We would rather knowingly purchase something we know is bad for us, because then it's on us. But we don't want to be duped, thinking like a company or product is saying this is good for you or this is in your best interest, and we find out it's not. We don't like that at all.

Speaker 2: 14:18

And I think that's just. I mean, that's something we should all strive to live for is like to be transparent as a company or as a person, right? Because even if you get advice from a parent, a spouse, a, sometimes you just tell them like, hey, I think you should do this. But there's these other two ways I thought of as well. And as a company, even cause like our main company is actually a gym and we launched a franchise company is when, when I'm talking to the franchise you know, candidate, I, I'm, I'm transparent. It's like look, my goal is not to sell you on this, right? Because if you get sold on this and it's not what you got sold on, then this is going to be an awkward partnership for the next 10 years, right? So I think that's something that we should all strive for. So I love that you'd actually talked about that too, but why-?

Speaker 1: 14:57

I'll tell you it's been a reason why in my 33 years of business I mean people can Google the living life out of me and you won't find anything bad and it's because I live so simply and if it's going to hurt someone, don't do it, period. And I assume my mistake is. I assume other people live by that same rule and I'm always sort of shocked and amazed that they don't. But when you live clearly like that, you don't have to worry about what you said, you don't have to worry about what you do because you are thinking ahead. How will this land?

Speaker 2: 15:26

oh, yeah, definitely, and so I mean I want to dive into, like, the betrayal even even more depth, right? So when or what kind of symptoms or what kind of triggers can happen in both men and women, but then maybe in gender specific, you know, because I know you know the genders do take things differently, and it's not bad, it's just I know, for a lot of the guys at least, that I know we get closed off, right, we don't talk, we don't tell emotions, right, which obviously isn't healthy either. But like, what are some of those symptoms that start to happen after betrayal?

Speaker 1: 16:06

Yeah, I will tell you, we have a lot of men who come into the PBT Institute and they're just not a lot of them aren't as vocal as the women, but they're grateful that they have a place to go. As far as symptoms, that was actually the second discovery, and what we found was there's a collection of symptoms physical, mental and emotional so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. So we've had over 100,000 plus people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz to see to what extent they're struggling. I'm happy to share some of the symptoms if you want to hear them.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 16:35

Because that would have been an awkward moment if you said no. So now imagine over 100,000 people men, women, just about every country's represented. As much as you're going to hear the symptoms. Listen for these numbers, okay. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. Think about how that would affect you at work just a loss of personal power. 94% deal with painful triggers. They can take you right down.

Speaker 1: 17:02

These are the most common physical symptoms 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. Their adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So maybe in the beginning they can't hold food down. Later on they're emotionally eating. Very common, I said before. 45% have digestive issues.

Speaker 1: 17:23

Most common mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed. 68% can't focus. 62% can't concentrate. Let's just stop there. You're exhausted, you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue. You have to go to work. You have to raise your kids. That's not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry and you can bounce back and forth between those two all day long. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. This is why I wrote trust. Again, this one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. Think about how an inability to trust would affect your business. We can talk about that. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. This is where you put the big wall up. You're like nope, been there, done that. No one's getting near me again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how. Staggering right.

Speaker 2: 18:27

Yeah, what's even crazier is and maybe a lot of them I feel like can be classified under almost a similarity to, like, the seven stages of grief. Is it grief?

Speaker 1: 18:39

Five Five stages.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Yeah, I knew it was going five or seven, but five stages of grief it sounds like a lot of. It can be classified under something like that and I wonder if there's a symbolism between, or a similarity between, those triggers in the brain when you lose someone or when you essentially lose someone because of betrayal.

Speaker 1: 19:02

Yeah, it is a loss. It is a loss. And you know what's even crazier about that? And then I'll get to the five stages. What's even crazier about that is, first of all, you didn't hear me say 20%, 30%. The numbers are super high.

Speaker 1: 19:12

They're also not necessarily a representation of a recent betrayal. This could be from the partner who broke your heart in high school, or the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. So think about this. That person may not know care, remember, they may not even be alive. And here you are with symptoms all these years later because of what was left unhealed. The good news is we could heal from all of it, which was the third discovery, and similar to the five stages, those are the five stages of grief. What was so exciting? For me? This was the most exciting of the discoveries. We learned that, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal, we will move through five proven, predictable stages. And we even learned what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at each of those stages, and we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable.

Speaker 2: 20:04

That's interesting. So what are the five stages of betrayal? Like going through it?

Speaker 1: 20:10

Yeah, sure. So the first is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual what I saw with everybody me too was a heavy lean on the physical and mental thinking and doing we're so good at that and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. Well, if a table only has two legs, it's going to be easy for that table to topple over. That's us Stage two shock trauma, D-Day, discovery day. This is the scariest of all of the stages and this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. So, right here you've ignited the stress response. You are now headed for every single stress-related symptom illness, condition, disease. Your mind is like you cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. This makes no sense and your whole worldview is shattered. Right, your mental model, trust this person. These are the rules. In one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been following is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying, right? But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe, right and stay alive.

Speaker 1: 21:22

That's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is by far where most people get stuck right here. And what happens is the reason why we get stuck here is because, once we figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go we don't know about stage four or stage five we're like all right, better figure out a way to make this work. We plant roots here. We're not supposed to, we don't know that and four things start to happen.

Speaker 1: 21:56

You're going to see so many of your clients right here in what I say. The first thing is we start getting all those small self benefits. We get to be right. We get someone to blame, we get our story we love our story right. We get sympathy from everyone we tell our story to. So we plant deeper roots. And now, because the mind is here longer than we should be, now, we start thinking things like you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. And now, because these are the thoughts we're thinking. Well, this is the energy we're putting out, like energy, attracts like energy. So now we're calling situations and circumstances and bad deals and bad relationships because this is where we feel we belong, Like here's where we go to therapy and a well-meaning therapist who isn't highly skilled in betrayal we will feel heard, validated, understood. It's gluing us in this spot, right here's where we're healing.

Speaker 1: 22:50

Our betrayer has no intention of changing. We're afraid to outgrow them. We sabotage ourselves. Here's where we joined that lame support group and then we found our people. So we sabotage ourselves. Right, and it gets worse. But I'll get you out of here Because it feels so bad. But we don't know there's anywhere else to go. Right here we start numbing. So now we start using food, drugs, alcohol, whatever you know, to numb, avoid and distract. So we do it for a day, a week, a month to have it right. A year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating, you're doing that, drinking, you think that has anything to do with your betrayal. And they look at me like I'm crazy. You see, it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves at stage three and stay there.

Speaker 1: 23:30

That makes sense yeah yeah, and that's where most people live. Can I get you to stages four and five?

Speaker 2: 23:38

yeah, I mean that's. That's. The interesting part too is like we get to that point and then we put down the roots because we just think that this is what it is, this is where this is the most that can happen, but we don't usually know what's on the other side of the horizon. We just got to kind of keep pushed through that barrier and get uncomfortable a little bit and take steps of the unknown. So I mean, dive into the stage four and five a little bit more, yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:02

And think about it, that whole stage three life repeat betrayals, more of the same, tamping down, symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome. Your immune system is suppressed, accelerated aging. There is nothing good coming from that stage. Anyway, if you're willing to let go of the story all it gives you grieve, mourn, the lost, a bunch of things you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right, in that decision you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but you just stopped the massive damage you've been creating in stages two and stage three.

Speaker 1: 24:42

Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, whatever, like your stuff's not there. You know it's not cozy. You're like, ok, we can do this, we got this right, that hopeful excitement. But think about it, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right, you don't take those things that don't represent who you're now ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people leave stage three and enter into stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, you've outgrown them. You're done the lame support group. You're done. That betrayer who's not changing. You're done. That therapist who's keeping you stuck. You're done.

Speaker 1: 25:18

And people, they say to me all the time Dr Debbie, I've had these people in my life for so long. Is it me? Yes, you're undergoing a transformation. If they don't rise, they don't come. Anyway, when you settle into this space, you make it sort of mentally home. You move into the fifth most beautiful place, and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. Now is the time. We couldn't do that earlier. We have new boundaries, new rules, new everything based on the road we traveled, and a new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now and the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're grounded. We're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

Speaker 2: 26:00

We're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages. Oh, I love that and I mean something you mentioned in stage four. I saw something online and it piqued my interest and it had my brain really start going and so I wanted to ask your thoughts on it. Right, and it was a therapist, I believe, or a doctor in psychology. That was talking about essentially the therapists that always bring up the same topic of your trauma and every single time you're talking about your trauma, it doesn't create a sense of healing because you're always visiting the same spot versus trying to reframe and get out and get over, essentially, and create that new life, new version of you with the new table. Do you agree with that? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 26:45

Yeah, it's so funny because we have our certification program for doctors, coaches, healers, therapists, so that they understand the five stages. And it's so funny because the therapists have the hardest time with the certification, because the whole idea is I don't care if you move that person incrementally or in a bigger way they are moving towards the next stage.

Speaker 1: 27:06

every single time they're sitting down with you and the therapist well-meaning, they want to have that person feel heard, validated, understood. That's really important. But if the only thing they're doing is feeling heard, validated, understood, it's seriously. It's like crazy glue for stage three because now they think they're receiving so much benefit from getting it off their chest. But if you check into how you feel after that, you know what did you get.

Speaker 1: 27:33

I remember sitting down with one of our members and we have a group call with me every other week in our community and he said you know, I just can't stop thinking about this. And I said you know, do you have a calculator? Get out a calculator. So he takes out his phone calculator on his phone. And I said let's do some math. Math has no place in betrayal, except for a place like this. And he said okay, I go. When was your betrayal? And he said 40 years ago. I said 40. Okay, how many times a day do you think about your betrayal? And he's like I don't know, between five and 10. So, okay, let's go with seven, seven, how long do you think about it when you think about it? I don't know. 10, 15 minutes, all right, and plug that in.

Speaker 1: 28:15

So we did the math, whatever. That turned into something like oh. And then I asked him. I said okay, anyway. I said let's do that. It turned into five years. So I said okay. So look at this. Nothing has happened in that five years. It's like you took yourself, put yourself in a cage for five years. Was there any one time that you came out of it with a nugget of insight, a new awareness, a new perspective? No, so you've essentially spent five years of your life doing nothing but making yourself sick, staying stuck. Do you see what's going on right here? Sometimes we need the hammer to bed.

Speaker 2: 28:55

And it's crazy when you put it into a different perspective, like that, right, because you think, oh, it's only five minutes of my day. But when you compound it and show what that is over the last 40 years, right, it's crazy because at 40 years, so you had 35 years that you were actually living and five years were just dwelling, right, and that's like the part where, too, where I think that you know, let's say, someone cuts you off in traffic, right, and the instant took, you know. Let's say, someone cuts you off in traffic, right and the instant took, you know, five seconds or even a millisecond, but then you let it affect, you know, the next five hours of your day thinking about the person that cut you off in traffic, right, and it's like you got to let it go or else everything else. You're wasting precious time just thinking about something that happened. You can't have any change over it.

Speaker 1: 29:42

You know, and it's so much more than that too, because now you're flooding yourself with stress-induced hormones and chemicals, you're creating aging, weight gain, illness and disease. What you feed grows. So now you're looking for more confirming evidence to support this idea of I don't matter, people don't treat me well or whatever, and your mind's like oh, I didn't realize you wanted this going. Okay, fine, we'll look for confirming evidence for you. And we create this whole life where it starts out as just a thought or something, and what we, the energy and the emotion we put behind it, creates our whole life. If it starts out is just a thought or something, and what we, the energy and the emotion we put behind it, creates our whole life. If you're not sure what you believe, take a look at your life. Your life is a 100% representation of every belief you hold. All your beliefs got you right here, so if you want something else, it's going to take a very different belief system to get you there.

Speaker 2: 30:37

Oh, 100%. I don't disagree with that one word out of any of that. What's one thing if someone is stuck in that third stage, what is one thing that they can start doing today to start getting into stage four and five?

Speaker 1: 30:54

Yeah, one of the things is we don't even realize we're numbing ourselves and it's helpful if you know, because then it's the first step to change it. So actually there are these four questions I invite everybody to write down. That's my way of saying. Write these down. Am I numbing, avoiding distracting? If so, how? Like? Call yourself on it. Do you go into the kitchen? You're not the least bit hungry. There you are in the fridge, right. Do you go into a room? You turn the TV on because you just want to drown out the sound of your own thoughts? Call yourself on it.

Speaker 1: 31:23

The second question this is a hard one. What am I pretending not to see, right? Am I pretending not to see? I hate my job. Am I pretending not to see that health issue that needs my attention? Am I pretending not to see? My relationship is in trouble. Call yourself on it. The third question what's life going to look like in five to 10 years if I keep this going? Play it out the same way you're handling it right now. Look down the road five to 10 years what does that health issue look like? What does the job look like? What does the relationship look like? And the fourth question what can life look like in five to 10 years if I change now? Right, I'm not saying it's easy. Transformation begins when you tell yourself the truth.

Speaker 2: 32:04

And only you know if you're, if you're telling yourself the truth or if you're lying to yourself.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Say it 100% yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:10

So so I mean and I love that because that's one of the things that like, the two of those questions that I tell people with even just goal setting, right, you know people are scared to, you know, take action and go towards their. You know, take action towards their goal and really make that uncomfortable step. But you have to think about it. What would this look like if I don't accomplish this goal? Or what would this look like if I did accomplish this goal? You know what would my life look like, what would my family's life look like, and so forth. So I love that those same questions pertain to the betrayal and overcoming it, because it is so true, you have to reframe it and you have to give yourself the basic option one and option two. You know what they both look like. What do you really?

Speaker 1: 32:53

want. I love that you brought that up, because this is what I see too. People don't want to get uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 32:59

So, they stay within the familiar known. But all the changes you want are outside of that familiar known. So you know, you know people like well, but, but I'm doing so much If you're not uncomfortable. No, you're not. No, you're not saying, I've been saying in my 33 years of business. It really holds true for everything and it's hard now, easy later, easy now, hard later. Take your pick. It's going to be one of those two.

Speaker 1: 33:24

When it comes to healing from betrayal, it is nothing less than hard now, easy later. But people say, but I've been miserable all these years. Yeah, but you haven't done the deep, transformative mindset work of changing the way you think, to change your life. Like, for example, after you crash and burn and life has blown open, you take all the parts you love and you leave behind everything that no longer serves right. And that means when a thought comes in your head, you reevaluate Do I want to take this one with me? You know, am I just being too easy? Am I giving in? Am I not standing true to my boundaries? Whatever, if the answer is like, this doesn't belong, you don't take it with you and you are deliberately and intentionally creating a version of you that didn't exist before. That's the hard now stuff I'm talking about. But unless you're willing to do that, yeah, it's going to stink, but it's only stinking because it's more of the same.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Definitely. And I almost want to even add a different aspect to what you're saying as well, Cause I believe the same thing hard now, easy later, easy now, hard later. But you're you, right now you're hard. You're still there's two, two hearts living in this betrayal. You know, mindset right that you're, you're still there's two, two hearts living in this betrayal. You know, mindset right that you're. You're at that's hard, overcoming it and going the path and trying to get it's uncomfortable and it's also hard. So you have to choose which hard you want. It's easy. This hard is maybe easier, but it's still. It's going to be a lot longer of a hard life than suffer a little bit more right now. Get uncomfortable to make, you know, to come out easier on the other end, Right. So I, I love that.

Speaker 1: 35:03

And you have such a better story on the other side. Like, think about it. I had a powerful story. Everybody I really trusted betrayed me and if I told you that, you'd give me a lot of sympathy. The story I have now that we're helping thousands of people heal from betrayal all the books, all the TEDx talks, a national holiday this story is so much better. So you get to choose and I didn't do anything anybody else couldn't do. I was just like the thought of staying stuck. It wasn't an option. I've trained my mind that the feeling of what if I can't live with. I'd rather do something and fail at it miserably than wonder what could have been.

Speaker 2: 35:45

No, a hundred percent. So I do like to ask one final question. Right and I know I didn't give this question to you ahead of time because I want the first thing that comes to mind Right, but this is your legacy wall, right, and on the Dr Debbie Silver legacy wall. It's not a tombstone, right? It is a quote or a message that you would leave for the up and coming generations that you've learned along your life's journey, and the message can be short or long. But what would your message be?

Speaker 1: 36:14

Don't stop. That's it. That's it, don't stop. If you have an idea, it's because it's yours. Don't stop Period.

Speaker 2: 36:27

I love it. Sometimes the short ones are the best ones, because it applies to so many things. You want to become more fit? Don't stop. You want to get over this betrayal? Don't stop. It's so true and that's what people don't realize is sometimes it's not this earth shattering philosophical meaning or definition, it's like. It's plain and simple. Just trust the process and don't stop.

Speaker 1: 36:52

And here's the thing you will have everybody telling you that's so crazy. What are you doing? You're nuts. People told me I was crazy going back for a PhD at 50, right, I mean. But look, it changed my life and the lives of so many other people. So you will, the more you speak and share your ideas, be very careful who you share it with. Right, all the naysayers will be calling you crazy. But if it's in, if it comes into your mind and your heart, it's because it's yours to do. Don't stop.

Speaker 2: 37:20

I love that. Where can people connect with you?

Speaker 1: 37:24

Everything is at the PBT as in post betrayal transformation, the PBT institutecom.

Speaker 2: 37:30

Awesome. Well, guys, that will be in the show notes. That will also be. If you're watching on YouTube, that'll be on the video description. Make sure you guys go check that out. There is a free quiz on there. You can take that. But I just want to say, Dr W, again, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day and talk about something that I know resonates with so many people.

Speaker 1: 37:52

Thank you so much. Thoughts fencing the game. Life, mindset calls the shots Got my mind on the prize. I can't be distracted. I stay on my grind, no time to be slackin'. I hustle harder. I go against the current Cause. I know my mind is rich to be collected.