235. Beyond Mediocrity: How Leaders Thrive in Complex Environments w/ Dr. Matt Kutz

Dr. Matt Kutz shares his journey from athletic training to leadership development, introducing his concept of contextual intelligence and how leaders can thrive in complex environments by adapting their approach to each unique situation.

• Athletic trainers work with high-performing individuals who constantly strive for improvement, creating a mindset that translates well to organizational leadership
• Leaders need multiple leadership styles and must learn to diagnose the context to determine which style is appropriate for each situation
• The 3D thinking framework helps leaders consider hindsight (past), insight (present), and foresight (future) when making decisions
• Great leaders understand the difference between excellence and perfectionism—excellence is attainable while perfectionism is paralyzing
• The EPIC framework—Excellence, Perception, Inspiration, Compassion—offers a pathway to overcome mediocrity
• Creating buy-in from team members at appropriate levels multiplies organizational effectiveness
• Leadership maturity involves giving team members decision-making opportunities appropriate to their experience and role

Check out Dr. Matt Kutz's new book "Becoming Epic: A Remedy for Mediocrity" coming out in August, and visit matthewkutz.com for articles and more resources on contextual intelligence.

Chapters

• 0:20 Introducing Dr. Matt Kutz
• 3:46 From Athletic Training to Leadership
• 8:53 Taking the Path Less Traveled
• 14:35 The Essence of Contextual Intelligence
• 21:01 3D Thinking: Hindsight, Insight, Foresight
• 24:33 Becoming EPIC: Excellence Without Perfectionism
• 31:18 Creating Buy-In and Building Teams
• 37:36 Final Thoughts on Legacy

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:20

What is up guys? Welcome to another episode of the Mindset Cafe podcast. It's your boy, devin, and today we got a special guest. We got Dr Matt Kutz. He is a Fulbright scholar. He is an entrepreneur, an athletic trainer, professor and the creator of the Contextual Intelligence Profile I hope I didn't butcher that A game changing tool that helps leaders thrive in complexity. Right and with nearly 30 years of experience in leadership and development, you know Dr Kudz has trained Fortune 500 companies, universities, global organizations and, honestly, he's taught them all to lead with clarity and adaptability. So I'm truly honored to have you on today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to hop on clarity and adaptability, so I'm truly honored to have you on today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to hop on the Mindset Cafe.

Speaker 1: 1:08

Oh, thanks, devin, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 1:11

So I always like to dive in, you know, on your background, Like what was, you know, a bird's eye view of your journey to today.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Wow yeah, so I don't know. We call that. It's a three beer story for a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26

So you know, my background is athletic training. So I started just, you know, like every other person and I was just had to pick a major in college and I picked athletic training because it had athletic in the title and I didn't even know what athletic training was Really. I played sports in high school and college myself so I thought that sounds kind of cool and it turned out to be a combination of health care and sports. So it's basically, you know, athletic trainers are the ones who do the diagnosis, the rehabilitation for athletes when they get injured. So absolutely great career, found my people and just found myself right away in a community of high performing individuals. You know, athletes generally want to be better, do better, get better, and they want to do it all right now. So that was kind of the mindset I was around.

Speaker 1: 2:27

Get injured, you know it was completely different working with them versus working with I hope it's not too disparaging but working with the average population, right, the general population, who you know really were fine with missing a few days work. In fact, you know I'm getting paid to be on, you know, off right now. So I'm really not in a rush to get well, to get better, to restore strength, whatever, where athletes are the exact opposite. We had to actually slow them down. Okay, wait, you're not ready to go back and play yet, even though they mostly wanted to go in, like right now it's like your leg is hanging off your body here, you're not ready to go back. Oh no, I tape it up, I can go. Tape it up, I can go, and um, and so that mindset, I think um, kind of just appealed to me. It was part of who I was anyways, and uh, and I found a way later in my career to transition that mindset into the corporate what I call the corporate athlete and into the organizational space and use some of those principles to develop that kind of mindset of listen, we can do this and we can do it better and we can go at it appropriately within a reasonable amount of time, you know, and improve, improve our organization, improve our team, improve our department, whatever it might be.

Speaker 1: 3:43

So long story and, like I said, it's a three beer story. But went and then got my PhD several years later after working for a while in Oregon and global leadership, and that opened up a lot of opportunities Again, I'll spare you all the boring details but ended up moving to Rwanda living in Rwanda as a Fulbright scholar, ended up moving to Rwanda living in Rwanda as a Fulbright scholar, teaching orthopedic assessment over there in a physical therapy school. A few years after that I got a faculty appointment in Brisbane, australia. I moved my family to the Gold Coast in Australia, worked there at Griffith University, working in their health service administration master's degree and now I'm back in Ohio Actually, I Ohio.

Speaker 2: 4:28

I work in Florida, in Miami and at Florida International University, and a doctor of athletic training program now oh wow, I mean that's awesome and I mean your, your journey is definitely interesting and that's why it makes it so cool is going to athletic training, and I mean being a trainer myself and owning a gym and gym franchise and everything like that like it's. It's always cool to meet with like-minded people. But what was your, your pivot into getting a PhD into in like leadership instead of like in something in the kinesiology field?

Speaker 1: 4:59

yeah, great question, because everyone else in my space has their PhD in either exercise physiology, kinesiology, something like that, and it was a very, very difficult decision. So I don't want to underscore that. But I found myself in this three-bear story journey. We're talking about One of the things.

Speaker 1: 5:18

I found myself at a small university down in South Florida and I was working as their strength and conditioning coach. I'm a CSCS as well and I was a certified strength and conditioning specialist as well as an athletic trainer. So I was working down there in both capacities and I started teaching some courses and the dean at the time was there was like, hey, listen, you're doing a great job teaching and stuff, but if you really want to get the salary that you need for your family at a young family at the time, you're really going to need to get a terminal degree, you're going to need to get a doctoral degree. And so I just did what everybody did, okay. So I started looking at rehabilitation science, exercise.

Speaker 1: 5:57

My master's degree is in exercise physiology. So I'm like, hey, exercise phys is perfect, I'm going to go back and exercise phys and something and I can't tell you what it was, devin, but there was something you know, just in me. That was like hold on a second. You know, let's try to look at the bigger picture here. And so I slowed down a little bit and I started exploring some other programs and I've always loved leadership, like I said, high performance.

Speaker 1: 6:25

I've always considered good leaders, high performers, and I was like maybe there's something there. So I just found a program, a PhD program in global leadership. It had with a specialization in organizational and corporate management. I'm like you know what? I might be the only athletic trainer in the world that has their PhD from a business college, but I think I'm going to do this instead and see just what happens. And amazing things did happen. It opened up huge opportunities for me, even within the discipline of athletic training that I'm still very actively involved in. That I'm still very actively involved in. I'm actually probably the only one who specializes in the organizational performance of an organization, of an academic program, of a rehabilitation department, something like that. So I have a little niche now and I've written a bunch of books and textbooks. So I use my textbooks and all the curriculum programs because I'm the only one of the few programs Cause I'm the only one, one of the few, I shouldn't say the only one one of the few that writes books on leadership for sports medicine professionals.

Speaker 2: 7:35

No, that's awesome and I love that because, like, I mean, I don't have a master's. I got my bachelor's in in Kines and if I were to go, you know, I'd probably get my master's in something else in kinesiology. But I always like to kind of venture and take other classes and learn other things. So it's awesome that you were like I'm not going to go with the crowd and go with what everyone else is doing. This thing I can still apply it to what I'm doing and other things. But this is really interesting me over here, right, and he knows what doors will open.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Yeah, and that was the real challenge. That was actually the fun part, because I had to do a lot of explaining early on of why I wanted to do this thing in this space, and it was really only me. Even my wife didn't see it or recognize it right at the time. I was really the only one who could see the need and the connection. And now granted, this was, you know, 20 plus years ago.

Speaker 1: 8:35

Athletic training is not. We've been around for about 70 years as a profession, so we're not as old as nursing, physical therapy, other of our sister professions, and so because of that, the whole profession was kind of in this new space. So it was like we all need to get these degrees in this area. And I was thinking because I was a big fan of actually the nursing literature at the time who are light years ahead of other professions relative to leadership in healthcare, and so I just, like I said, I've always been a huge student of leadership anyways and I thought just maybe this might be beneficial somewhere down the road and someone's going to need this. And it turned out to be great for me and, like I said, I've served.

Speaker 1: 9:25

I'm actually the vice president for the World Federation of Athletic Training and Therapy. I serve as a bunch that way, so you really have to have you know. I love the title of your, even your podcast the Mindset Cafe, because you're not going to go into new spaces in any field, in any industry, unless you have the proper mindset. You have to see what other people can't see and don't see. That goes for your health, it goes for your decision making, your relationships, everything, and that's a huge, huge lesson we could all learn.

Speaker 2: 10:11

No, definitely. And it takes a unique individual that's willing to go against the against stream and essentially figure out the unknown, Because I mean, that's what essentially you're doing. Is that, okay, you know, with this new, you know PhD, how can I make the connections Right? The field is untapped. Essentially, yeah, there's, you know, athletic training, which most people think. When they say, oh, yeah, I'm an athletic trainer, they're like, oh, you train athletes.

Speaker 2: 10:39

It's like, no, that's a whole different degree than just a personal trainer. That's a. That's a level up. That's a whole different degree than just a personal trainer. That's a that's a level up. Um, but now you're in a field where it's like, look, you can, you can take a bird's eye view and look at a different aspect of the whole, uh, industry and make it better. Right and so. And also, I mean, let's say, if you're right now, if you're in school and you're, you know, doing your degrees and looking at your pipeline down, it's like if you're in school and you're, you know, doing your degrees and looking at your pipeline down, it's like if you're doing what everyone else is doing and you're applying for a job, you're going to be one of the many instead of being one of the few and being able to pitch it a different way.

Speaker 1: 11:15

Yeah, you've got to do something to differentiate yourself from the crowd, you know, and that's that's what leaders do. I mean, that's the big part about you know, the really interesting thing about studying leaders who make a difference and the mindset that leaders have, because there is a big difference between a leader's mindset and a manager's mindset and this is something I talk about in a lot of other spaces as well. But so many of us get caught up in the manager's mindset you know I need to manage the situation. So many of us get caught up in the manager's mindset you know I need to manage the situation. And leadership is about budgeting and setting agendas and organizing staff and those kinds of things. And, while there's elements of truth in it, the real leaders are the ones that get people to move beyond the limits that they've set for themselves, and I think that's really, really an important part. And to do that it's everything you just said You've got to think differently, you've got to attack it a different way. You've got to get to the goal that you want, and maybe a little bit of an unusual pathway, but you have to be able to see that pathway and be convinced that it will work, and to do that requires you know a management of risk.

Speaker 1: 12:28

You know there's this thing that many of us, many people, fear risk. Shy away from risk and try to avoid risk. I would be one who says, stop it. I mean that's crazy. And I can only tell you what I mean. That's, that's, that's crazy. And I can only tell you what. You know my people who I mentor, and even my own sons. I have two sons and even my own sons who are adults now. But you know, only thing I tell them all the time is don't shy away from the risk, do the hard thing, make the risky decision and if, at the very least, you'll learn something valuable from it as life moves on, so it's never I I I believe this. I don't want to put this on everybody, but I believe it's always worth it to take a risk for something you think might work.

Speaker 2: 13:16

No, I agree with you and I'm right there with you on that. I mean it's. It's one of those things where it may not be as easy as you thought it was, but that's because you set expectations for how it was going to go. So if you don't set expectations, then you can't be disappointed when it doesn't go as fast as you want it to go. You have to trust the process. Anything worth value is going to cost either time, money or effort, and you have to realize that there's no set amount, usually all three of those.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Oh, 100% yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:44

And there's no set amount. And there's no set amount on any of them necessarily. I mean, when I launched the franchise, believe me, I was in my own head at month 10 of not selling a franchise. And then I had to like recenter myself and even say, like you knew this was going to be hard, like no one told you when you were going to sell one. And so then, a year later, we got our first one, then our second one, and then it goes down the road when you were going to sell one, right. And so then you know, a year later, we got our first one, then our second one, and then it goes down the road and you just have to trust the process and realize it. It'll work out. There's always a solution to every problem. You just have to find it.

Speaker 1: 14:14

You got to keep plugging away. That's right. I mean, I think a lot of people give up too soon.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Definitely, definitely. So I mean your expertise in leadership right. What makes a good leader? Like what skills? What traits qualify a good leader versus the average leader?

Speaker 1: 14:35

Right? That's a great question because, to be honest with you, the answer varies from person to person. A situation, a situation, and that's what people really don't like to hear. So I've spent the last 20 years researching a construct called contextual intelligence, and one of the first books that I wrote was now it's and it's just actually came out literally two days ago. The second edition came out literally two days ago, the second edition, but basically the title of the book is Contextual Intelligence, and it's basically how to navigate uncertainty, and one of the things that we've learned through that is context matters, right, and the thing that I was always interested in learning are well, what are the specific attributes that a leader uses everywhere, regardless of context? You know, whether they're promoted, demoted, move when situation changes, disruption, life happens, whatever it is. Are there leadership behaviors that every leader uses all the time, regardless? And what we found out is yeah, there are a few, and the thing about that is the few, though, are actually mindsets as much as more than they are behaviors. And everybody. Well, what's the one thing every leader needs to have? Well, again, that depends on the context, because the context dictates what needs to be done.

Speaker 1: 15:59

Peter Drucker said, who's an iconic management thinker. For decades. He's gone on now, but he always said culture eats strategy for breakfast, and what is meant by that is culture always has more power than your strategy. Whatever you think you're going to do, the plans you put in place are always going to come in second to the culture that's established. Well, the culture is the context, so context dictates what's appropriate and the best leaders. If there's one thing that every leader needs to do, or anything, they need to learn to diagnose the context. They need to learn to see what type of situation they are in and what particular skill is needed, because the best leaders don't just do one thing well, they do everything well well.

Speaker 1: 16:59

They do everything well, and what I mean by that is you know there's leadership styles. A good leader has multiple leadership styles. They understand that in this situation I need to behave like this and in that situation I need to behave like that, and they know how to change those hats. That's what it means to be contextually intelligent and that. So that's really what we're talking about here, and and I'll just throw out one other little framework that I use quite a bit to help with this Cause people will ask all the time All right, well, how do I become more contextually aware? Well, we talk about using a skill set called 3D thinking.

Speaker 1: 17:43

3d thinking, the 3Ds, are the three dimensions of time. So the 3D thinking are hindsight how we understand the past. Insight how we are perceiving the present and foresight how we are anticipating the future. So hindsight, insight and foresight. Most people default and overemphasize hindsight when it comes to making a decision, evaluating an opportunity, determining where to go, etc. And what they ought to be doing is including hindsight, insight and foresight. So when you have all three dimensions of time operating, you actually see more than you initially would see and you actually have more data, more information, more experiences to inform what it is you're doing and that of course, we unpack that over like a two-day seminar. Like I said, I wrote a book on it, so it's hard to do here in 20 minutes, but but that's really an important thing.

Speaker 2: 18:45

So I would say you know, make sure they're contextually aware, make sure they have multiple skill sets, and then the way to get to that place is practice 3d thinking no, actually I I think that's that's an awesome way to put it and I would almost say that for my own journey, I'm definitely not the same leader I was a year ago, let alone two years ago, or even when we opened the business. And I was having a talk with one of my managers the other day that's running in the gym and kind of explaining and trying to. We had our manager training, essentially trying to just continuously make him better, and I gave him the explanation, like remember how reactive I was when I was training you, when we first, like I hired him when you know we had been open for like less than six months, and I was like that definitely was not the example of leadership, right, I was like you have to be able to.

Speaker 2: 19:39

Sometimes you're going to be upset in the situation. Right, you know one of the trainers does something. You know a member says something that frustrates you. Like, take a beat right, take a second, analyze it right and realize, like, what is what's upsetting you about this? Like, and if you cause, if you just react, then the person's going to receive it a certain way, and there's probably they're not. You're probably not going to get the outcome that you want, and I remember from my leadership growth journey like I would analyze situations after the fact and regret some of the ways that you know, some of the decisions or impulses that I would make or do, and then be like man, okay next time that happens. And so it's like a constant evaluation of yourself into now what is essentially the 3D thinking model.

Speaker 1: 20:25

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's again what a good leader does is they're constantly evolving, they're constantly growing. They understand that what worked yesterday isn't going to work tomorrow. And the problem I'm trying to solve today is, even though it might be similar, even though it might look the same, even though it might involve a lot of the same characteristics, it's still a unique context and we have to bring our solutions. We have to think about our solutions as a unique intervention for every situation we have.

Speaker 1: 20:57

And I think some of the problems leaders and managers have is they just think okay, this is last time I had a disgruntled client, this is how I handled it and it's supposed to work. You know, it's going to work the same way then or now as it did then. And that's just not life, that's just not true. And we need to develop those skill sets to discern what's unique about this situation, and that's really the foundation of great leadership.

Speaker 1: 21:30

I mean, you look back at history and things like Abraham Lincoln, winston Churchill they both were trying to be leaders for decades before they actually were. I think Lincoln, winston Churchill, they both were trying to be leaders for decades before they actually were. I think Lincoln, you know, ran for office 16 times, you know, before he was actually elected. Churchill was a frustrated politician before he came to power in the UK during World War II. And what was it that made both of these men and these are just two pretty easy examples to cherry pick from is the context, the situation demanded that type of leader for that moment of time that they were in.

Speaker 1: 22:07

And if we can now take that on a microcosm to our own lives, every situation that we find ourselves now, every situation in the gym, every situation in the organization, every situation at home in the community, wherever we're at, they're all their own standalone things and I need a skill that speaks in each one of those places. That requires a lot of work on my part for professional and personal development, and that's really what I'm after. The leaders who make a difference in people's lives are the leaders who understand that they need to bring something different to each person in each situation, and that's where leadership is respect, or respect is earned as a leader, and I think that's. I just believe that, and I think I can argue pretty convincingly that that's true.

Speaker 2: 22:59

No, I'm right there with you on everything you're saying. I think that's amazing and the way you've been able to break it down and like take it from just. You know you need to be compassionate, you need to be straightforward, you know, taking just some of these generic terms that people associate with being a leader and kind of diving into it, like there's a whole mindset map, essentially, that you need to kind of put on, like you mentioned, like you need to put on the different hats, the different masks at different times, you know, so that you get the outcome that you want. Is this a straightforward time? Is this a?

Speaker 2: 23:31

I need to be, you know, a little more, not coddling, but you know, a little more sensitive you know or is this a raw, raw kind of moment you know as a leader, right and being able to switch between the two, even though you want to just yell at someone?

Speaker 1: 23:45

right, that's not what it takes. We all have our defaults right, and I'm not saying that we don't have our preferred leader. Every leader has a preferred leadership style where they're strongest, where they can get the most done and, of course, our tendencies as humans is to default to our preferred style all the time. But this is where maturity and wisdom come in, this is where doing the hard part of leadership comes in, because, even though my preferred style is X, this intervention requires Z. You know, and that's what we need to do. And, like you said, I love the metaphor of changing hats, because we have to be able to change hats all the time to lead effectively.

Speaker 1: 24:28

And you know I could, yeah, if I could throw out, you know, another, another bigger mindset shift. I just actually just wrote a brand new book that's coming out in August, called Becoming Epic a remedy for mediocrity, and I'm very much into this idea right now, of what do we need to do as people, as humans, to overcome the mediocrity that seems to be everywhere, all around us. You know, people are just settling for average, they're settling for okay, they're settling for norm, this is as good as it's going to get, and that really bothers me, you know, and because I believe things can always be better. Now, that's part of my mindset and I think that's part of what you're about and what you're doing with the space that you work in. And I developed this mnemonic called Becoming Epic, and epic is as a mnemonic, for the E stands for excellent be excellent, the P stands for perceptive be perceptive, the I stands for inspiration, or be inspired, and the C stands for compassion be compassionate. And then so the whole book is about becoming epic as a person, as a leader, as a performer, and overcoming mediocrity by these four maxims, and basically, what we've just been talking about is the idea of perception. In fact, I even mentioned some of my contextual intelligence research in the chapters on perception, because that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Leaders need to be perceptive, right, they need to go into a situation and recognize. Like you just said, this situation calls for a little bit more direct interaction. This situation calls for a little bit more direct interaction and this situation calls for a little bit less direct interaction, a little bit more. I think you used the word coddling. You know a little bit more coddling here, you know, but that's what a wise leader does. They perceive what's needed and I think that's critical. Of course, the other aspects there of being epic is being excellent is pretty self-explanatory.

Speaker 1: 26:37

I do think that there is a big problem with leaders today, or people in general. They misunderstand excellence for perfection, and I am one, and the literature is actually pretty clear. The problem with perfectionism, and perfectionism actually is a major detriment. We can't be perfect, but we can be excellent, and there's a difference and I think there's something really exciting about that.

Speaker 1: 27:04

We've already talked about being perceptive, and then being inspired is something else that people think inspiration comes from an external source. In fact, greek mythology taught us that inspiration comes from the muses. Right, creativity comes from the muses, these goddesses who are out there who would inspire poets and artists and things like that to create things of beauty. And the reality is there's no muses, there's no goddesses of creativity out there. The creativity is within, and we have to develop the mindset to unleash the creativity that we have instead of looking for it from an external source. And then, finally, compassion, which I think also is pretty self-explanatory. We just need to understand every single person we encounter has a story that we really don't know and could benefit from knowing.

Speaker 2: 28:01

No, definitely. And I think that you are right, too, on the perfectionism being detriment, because, in my opinion, I think that perfectionism, or even striving for perfectionism like realizing that perfectionism is or being perfect or having something that's perfect is also just your perception, perception of what is perfect. Right, Because we might work together, we might be co-owners of something and you might have this vision of what perfect looks like, but it's not my vision of what perfect looks like. And now you know you got issues.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Yeah, that's a great point and I think a lot of times we we fool ourselves. And one of the big recommendations that I make, both in the contextual intelligence book and in the epic book, is we need to have people in our lives who help us reset our perception and our perspective. You know because a lot cause you're exactly right what I think needs to happen. As perfect, you might think no, that's a train wreck if we do. You know, and we need to have these people in our lives. You know, and I think that's so critical, and you know, go back to the question you asked me before about you know what's. What does a leader need to have?

Speaker 1: 29:14

And I'll maybe amend or add something to my statement, because I don't believe any person can be epic alone. You know, and in fact that's one of the titles in my book, one of the chapter titles in my book no one can be epic alone, because to be the leader that you need to be requires intentional teamwork, and that's another thing. That's hard because, like you said, sometimes the members and the bristling that happens between individuals shouldn't be taken as, hey, we're not a good team or we shouldn't be working together. It shouldn't be taken as you have something that I need and I have something that you need. We can get to that framework in our thinking and that mindset. All of a sudden, we double, triple, quadruple our power to perform.

Speaker 2: 30:17

No, definitely. I think that's where leaders start to be. The bottleneck is where they think that they need to be the one right that you actually will be epic and you will. Your business, your life, your team will grow when you let them have buy-in right, meaning that like, for example, on a smaller note, right, we're having our four-year, you know, celebration of the business and I've always had the perception of not wanting to have, like, a bartender and drinks and stuff like that, because it's a gym, but at the same time, I do see all these other places doing it.

Speaker 2: 30:52

So I asked both of the managers separately like their opinion. I was like, all right, I want to get your thoughts on it. Maybe it's just my perception, my perspective. And then both of them were like I think you should do it, like you know, okay, like you guys want it, like this is, we'll do it, even though it wasn't my, my initial thing. But now, even though they had a decision on that, like they feel like they have more decisions in the business. So I'll ask them before we run a campaign hey, I'm thinking of A, b or C, which one do you like? Right and why? Like, explain why Right. And so now, when we choose that one, they're like I had a decision in choosing that.

Speaker 1: 31:25

Yeah, it creates buy-in, and that's what the value of teamwork is all about. It doesn't mean that there's not one person who has the final say so, so to speak, and I do believe organizations need that. I'm not. I'm definitely not one of these. Everybody's equal in the team and all that that's.

Speaker 1: 31:40

That's ridiculous right you're never going to grow, you're never going to get direction. But it is the responsibility of a good leader to create buy-in among their team. And what you just described is an excellent way to create buy-in, because they need to feel and believe that this is mine too right and that's really important. And to give them the opportunities to do that, to pitch in their ideas, is huge. And that goes for the entire gamut of life.

Speaker 1: 32:13

And even when you're raising kids now, you're not going to let your three-year-old, you know, but maybe your 14 or 15-year-old deserves a little bit more input than they did when they were seven, you know. And your 17 or 18-year-old deserves even a little bit more input when they were 14 or 15. And so it's the same way in life when they were 14 or 15. And this is so. It's the same way in life. And and we, we know that that makes sense to us in our minds, but when we go to actually practice it sometimes we forget that. And that's really what, you know, I try to do is let everybody understand. Listen, it's not as hard as it looks, but it's not as easy as you think either.

Speaker 2: 32:53

And I would almost argue, actually it works for my three-year-old. It's funny that you mentioned that age, um, where I'll let her have a buy-in to the decision both of the decisions we're gonna do but let her have the choice of the order, like do you want to get your pajamas on or do you want to brush your teeth?

Speaker 1: 33:10

right, of course, yeah, you know, and then.

Speaker 2: 33:12

So then she's like okay, brush my teeth. Okay, cool, brush your teeth. And then wait a couple minutes and all right, two minutes, they're gonna put your pajamas on, all right, you know.

Speaker 1: 33:19

Then she's like okay, but you know she had a good because she was part of that decision and she knew it was coming. Yeah, that's great, that's funny, because I because that that's a perfect example, devon and uh, and I was thinking of a little something a little bit different, because I've talked to parents who, like, consult their kids with what? How should we pick? You know we need to move communities, like wait a second. You know they're not going to be a logical choice there, but that's a great idea. Hey, do you want to brush your teeth first or put your pajamas on first, you know, or do you want to read the story first? Whatever, you know, kind of a thing. But these are, this is what we're doing. You can fit the order, but that's age appropriate, you know, and and and.

Speaker 1: 33:58

Think about now the organization. Same thing with the organization, we need to let our staff, our teams, you know, make a maturity, appropriate decisions. You know your managers should be able to speak to. Okay, here's what we're going to do, here's what our marketing campaign should look like, here's what we need to do for the corporate celebration and stuff like that. That's great, but you're not going to let your six month, you know person who's been one of your personal trainers, who's only been in the company for six months chime in on those types of decisions at this point. You know and that's again not every I don't want to jump on too much of a soapbox, but a lot of managers actually don't do that. You know, we give equal voice to everybody around here and and I kind of think that's a little naive, to be honest with you- oh no, I agree with you.

Speaker 2: 34:47

I I've. My company is a merit-based company, like that's, and that's just how it is. But I agree, like even I have two managers. One of them was with me since six months, one is a newer manager. They have different levels of an eye into the business as well as they have different levels of decision making, right, you know, and and so forth, and that's. It should be just like with the kids. There's age appropriate, you know decisions. Well, there's, you know, title or role positions that you know get the same, same critique as well, same, essentially, choices.

Speaker 1: 35:28

Absolutely, and we're moving everybody towards what I call the epic maxims. You're always striving for an excellent track record, you're always striving to discern your environment as accurately as possible, and there are people around you to help you with that. You know, and and and all those kinds of things I think are absolutely critical.

Speaker 2: 35:48

No, definitely, and I love you that you use the word striving. That's actually the name of the gym. So before we wrap up, I'd like to ask one final question, and that is on your legacy wall. Right Now. I will preface this by saying it's not a tombstone, even though I say that some people still give me a tombstone answer. Right, it is the legacy wall. Essentially, what is the one message that you would leave for the up and coming generations that you've learned along your life's journey?

Speaker 1: 36:16

So you know I'll answer this, answer it this way because I'll tell you what I tell my sons, as they're now developing their own families and things like that, and it's everything that you do, do the best that you can.

Speaker 1: 36:30

And you know that sounds simple, that sounds, you know, maybe even a little parochial, but I do believe with all of my heart, if you want to make the impact that you want to make and leave the legacy that you want to leave, you can't do it unless you are doing your best at everything you put your hand to, and and you know the effort effort is is secondary. Effort comes and goes. Things of life happen, all those kinds of things, but I think, as long as you're doing your best for that day, understanding that some days and this is hard, because this is what I tell my sons some days your best isn't good enough, okay, but what do we do tomorrow? Tomorrow, we do our best again, and if we do our best every day, eventually we'll get to the place we need to get. And I think that's what I hope people say about me is and think about me as this is a guy who just always tried to do the best he could do agree with the.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Today you did your best, and it may not be good enough, but you did learn a lesson. So tomorrow's best is better than today's best. Right, and and eventually it will pay off. Right, and you will be able to do whatever it was. So I love that. Where, where can people connect with you? Or even more?

Speaker 1: 37:48

so where can they get the book that's coming out? Yeah, the best place is just my website. Um and uh, it's Matthew cootscom, so matthew with two t's and coots is spelled k-u-t-z, so matthewcootscom. I've got articles there. I've got books there. Buy all kinds of stuff there for you, so hope to see you there yeah, I'll put that in the show notes, guys.

Speaker 2: 38:08

uh, so make sure you guys check it out. Um, the book epic is coming out, you said, said in August. Yep, perfect. And honestly, guys, make sure you guys share this episode with a friend, right? Share this episode with someone who is in a leadership position or you know that you know is trying to become into a leader, a leadership position, right. But, like always, we appreciate you guys for listening in. And, matt, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to hop on the mindset cafe. Thanks, I really appreciate it. A ton of fun.

Speaker 1: 38:34

and Matt, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to hop on the Mindset Cafe. Thanks, I really appreciate it. A ton of fun.