In this episode, the Finance Roundtable team interviews CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ and New York Times bestselling author, Carl Richards.
Carl is also the creator of the Sketch Guy Column, which appeared weekly for a decade in The New York Times.
Jacob, Micheal and Carl openly discuss the complexities of financial planning during emotional and challenging times.
Carl explains that the financial planning process begins when your money and values meet for the first time.
The episode ends with Carl discussing his research around the psychological phenomenon where people doubt their skills, talents, or accomplishments.
We hope you give this episode a listen…
In this episode, the Finance Roundtable team interviews CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ and New York Times bestselling author, Carl Richards.
Carl is also the creator of the Sketch Guy Column, which appeared weekly for a decade in The New York Times.
Jacob, Micheal and Carl openly discuss the complexities of financial planning during emotional and challenging times.
Carl explains that the financial planning process begins when your money and values meet for the first time.
The episode ends with Carl discussing his research around the psychological phenomenon where people doubt their skills, talents, or accomplishments.
We hope you give this episode a listen…
You're listening to Finance Roundtable, a podcast that focuses on demystifying your money. Your hosts, professor Jacob Gold, michael Koshell and Kelvin Gold, will educate and entertain you on all areas related to personal finance. Get back, relax and enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:Hello listener, welcome to the Finance Roundtable podcast. I'm your host, Professor Jacob Gold, and I'm joined by my co-host, Michael Koshell. Our other co-host, Mr Kelvin Gold, isn't with us today due to a new semester at ASU starting. Don't worry, he'll be editing and putting the final touches on this episode and will be back with us next month. Your presence will be missed today, Kelly. Let's go ahead and get started. Hey, Mike, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. It's a Monday, so I'm looking forward to an exciting week, as always.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I know a new school year has started. How has the family been transitioning back into a new school year? I know your wife's a teacher and your two kids obviously are in school. How's that going?
Speaker 3:You know it's actually quite smooth these days and, Carol, you'll hear this for the first time. So my two kids are older now. I remember when they were little ones it was definitely a choppy August getting back to school, but you know what? They're quite self-sufficient, so it's quite smooth. And, to be honest with you, I think not just my kids but my wife likes the structure. Once you go back you kind of have this structure or purpose and I think after two and a half months of summertime it's definitely a need. I actually think they kind of enjoy it. They don't say that, but I can see that in their body language.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, that first month of summer. For the kids I know at least mine they relish in not having structure. But then it gets to a point where, as you said, structure is nice and you can get into a routine and you're able to really then learn more and grow as an individual. So, yeah, it's kind of a fun time of year, but also there can be some anxiety of new school year, new friends, new teachers, etc. So I'm glad that everyone's doing good. So how about yourself? Yeah, so ASU started back up.
Speaker 2:As many of our listeners know, I'm an adjunct professor at Arizona State University. I teach a course called Thin 380, personal Financial Management. This is my eighth year teaching at ASU and I finally feel like my class is where I want it to be from quizzes, exams to videos and my PowerPoint. And this year I've got some really great students, some students with some great potential, and it's always an honor for me to have an entire semester where I can really teach them the fundamentals of money and how to use money as a tool. I often tell my students that odds are. You're not going to be the next LeBron James, you're not going to invent the next Post-It. If you want to get ahead financially. If you want to become financially independent, you've got to live below your means and do the necessary planning for the future, and really that kind of ties into our guests today.
Speaker 2:We are so honored to have Carl Richards with us today, and Carl Richards many of our clients already know Carl. Carl is a certified financial planner and he's the creator of the Sketch Guy column, which appeared weekly for over a decade in the New York Times, and Carl's been featured on Marketplace Money, oprahcom and Forbescom. And through his simple sketches Carl makes complex financial concepts easy to understand. And his sketches also serve as the foundation for his two books the one-page financial plan a simple way to be smart about your money. And the behavior gap simple ways to stop doing dumb things with your money. And for those clients of mine that are listening those Saturday morning emails that you get from me many times, if you see a drawing, that is one of Carl's drawings that he drew for the New York Times and we've been really blessed to be able to partner with him and for our clients to be able to benefit from his tremendous knowledge of all things related to money and finance. So, without further ado, carl, thank you so much for coming. How are you doing today?
Speaker 4:I'm great. Jake, thanks so much and Mike thanks for having me Super excited to talk to you today.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. Well before we kind of get into some themes here, carl, what are some things that you've been working on recently that are kind of driving you? I've been following your lectures, I've read both of your books and I can see that many times when you are speaking to groups you have certain themes that you're working on and I can see you working through different areas. Are there certain areas that you've been spending a lot of time trying to explore and define right now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean thanks for asking.
Speaker 4:A lot of the work that shows up in public is just the manifestation of stuff I've been thinking about for a really long time.
Speaker 4:Right now, I'm really interested in the connection between money and meaning, and it's hard because most of personal finance is at the tactical level right, like the things we're going to do, the products we're going to buy, the specific investment we're going to buy, or even the asset allocation we're going to pick, or the budgeting app that we're going to use, and those things are important, like really, really important, but they're only important to the degree that we understand why we're doing them in the first place.
Speaker 4:And this connection between our use of capital and I think of that broadly like money, time, money, energy and attention, or use of capital and what's actually important to us, like trying to get alignment there. And then I think, sitting underneath that is the sense of purpose or meaning, like what is the purpose of money in your life? Like why are you doing that? What does it mean to you? Where did you learn about that? So I've been super interested in this connection between money and meaning and what the academic literature says about it, and maybe even more important, like what all the ancient wisdom traditions had a lot to say about money and meaning, so it's been really fun to explore that.
Speaker 2:That's so great. Thank you for sharing that. And I think about one of your drawings where you have two circles and they interconnect, and I think one of the circles is your money and then the other circle are your values. And where it intersects it's colored in and it says that's where financial planning begins. It's kind of your money and your values kind of create that opportunity for you to begin to plan for your future. And you're such a student of the psychological aspects of money that once again, we're so honored to have you here, to have your wisdom being transcended into our audience. So thank you for that.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, cheers. Yeah, it's funny. I don't think most of the time, if you've thought much at all about money, what you typically think about is math and you know if you were taught anything in high school about money, you're typically taught you think of it as a math class. It involves calculators and spreadsheets and, again, like really important to know how to do the math. But I think the problem comes when we go to.
Speaker 4:So it's almost always a shock when people start to understand that like there's all this emotion behind money. Like wait, I just opened the Mx bill, why are we fighting? And I haven't compared to. Like money and financial planning and financial decision-making is often like an electric fence that we don't know it's electric. Like we touch it thinking it's just gonna be two plus two equals four, always right. Well, how come this time it equals six? Like I don't understand why you're upset or why I'm feeling guilty or shame or blame, or why I'm hearing my mom or my dad in my head saying don't be so spoiled. Like we all have those and then we're taught never to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a taboo right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, don't talk about it. It's interesting they do this survey every couple of years that shows up in the news where they ask people. Well, essentially, the results of the survey is people are more willing to talk about the intimate details of their sexual life than they are to talk about finance. So you've got that old saying money, sex, politics and religion those are things we were taught never to talk about. And boy, it's kind of hard to make good decisions about something you're not allowed to talk about.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think of Mike and I sitting down with someone that we've never met before they come to our office. They've heard that we're good guys and maybe we can provide some guidance to them on their financial journey, and we don't know them from Adam. But within five, 10 minutes we're asking them about these personal issues, about their finances, and there's no history between us and, knowing that statistic, I can't imagine anybody not being uncomfortable initially talking about their finances, especially knowing that people are more comfortable talking about their sex life than their own finances. That's fascinating, Carl.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think that's like for your listeners, that's an important thing to kind of remember as you look for financial advice and you evaluate where you're gonna get it.
Speaker 4:One of the things and I was asked to write this column probably I don't know, not a hundred times, but a lot we got asked from readers to write a column about how to pick a financial advisor and I would make a list of like the kind of tactical things like they have their CFP or they work at this kind of firm or they, and just about every time we'd make a list like that there would be some news somebody in the news that met all those requirements and was doing something that none of us would be proud of.
Speaker 4:It's sketchy, yeah. And so what I've really come to, I think, the best way to understand at least the way I think about how to understand your relationship with financial advisors like look, have they taken the time to diagnose long before they start prescribing? And we're so in this industry. We're like you're used to the idea. In fact, that's why, if you're a listener and you're a client, right, like that's why you, when you go to meet a financial advisor for the first time, it's why you feel like you need to keep your hand on your wallet, like it's like oh, it's adversarial, almost sort of like you're going to buy a new car. Sure, you're on guard and you should be.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:But what I think you look for is like wait, did somebody take the time to understand who I am and what I want long before they started throwing prescriptions at me? And if they start by throwing prescriptions at you, I think you need to say well, you know, thanks, and maybe move on a bit and find somebody else, because those prescriptions are going to be wrong if somebody doesn't take the time to diagnose. And so I think that idea of like yeah, you're right, when somebody comes in and talks to the two of you, you know, of course they're gonna be like I'm going in to talk about money, this is a crazy idea. And you know, when we when a real financial advisor's in that room, they take the time to listen and ask good questions and get a sense to diagnose before they prescribe. And I think that's really, really important for us all to remember.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think about the last few years living through the pandemic and we've all been so uncertain about the near future and the long term that that creates even more doubts in people's minds, even if they had a financial plan. Now that financial plan has changed because so many circumstances have changed, and some of your writing that I've read, you really talk about how certain financial planners act as like financial defenders and they're defending the markets and they're taking it personal. And then other financial planners they recognize the uncertainty and, instead of trying to defend some logic, they're there to act as a guide and understand what the client is trying to accomplish. And, based on the known data, how do we make that next step be the best step and then take on more data to then find out what then the following steps should be? Would you mind talking to our audience about kind of the difference between you know a financial defender versus you know a financial guide when it comes to financial planners working with individuals?
Speaker 4:Sure, yeah, I mean, that's one of my favorite subjects. So, really, the idea so often we'll see and listen. I have deep empathy for everybody listening to this, like clients, like we desperately want as humans I want it just as bad as any listener does. We want a sense of certainty. We'd really and we've this is going back a long time, like we've been looking for someone to tell us where the rain will come or where the buffalo will be. We've been looking for that for a very long time.
Speaker 4:And the problem, of course, is in the traditional financial services industry and what I often call the financial pornography network and the circus around financial advice, there's plenty of people willing to promise you what the future will bring. The problem is they're always wrong. And so what we see, even among really good financial advisors, is this idea that you know, like I, can draw a line or a map of the next 30 years of your life. We've got really robust tools now. We've got huge calculators and spreadsheets and we can put all these variables in and we can draw this line and we can say here's what it looks like. And sometimes we even use things like confidence, like I'm 97% confident in this, and those are all again, really important tools and, in the hands of capable financial planners, really really valuable. But the challenge is financial planning. We know the future will not. The only thing we know for sure about that line is that it's wrong. We just don't know what direction. And so it's, and maybe a story would help here, like when they this is from Morgan Housel's book. Actually, I don't know if it's in the book, but he shared this example with me. It might be in the book.
Speaker 4:When they launched the Mars rover, they predicted the day. They basically they didn't predict. They forecasted the day that it would land on Mars and it was something like eight or nine years later. They were. They were right by like four hours. They were within. So it was like 99.99997% Correct. Eight years later, they predicted within four hours. Well, that's physics, and there are hard science rules that apply to physics. Yes, what we all want in our financial lives is we want physics. The problem is we don't. And Richard Feynman said, imagine how hard physics would be if electrons had feelings.
Speaker 2:Right, so I think that's the part.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that's. That's why what you think you're getting from a financial advisor is somebody will draw you a really great map and, again, they should be great map drawers. That's the technical piece. They should be great map draw, they should draw the best map. But what we need to realize about the map is what you don't want is when the world changes and literally in this case, you've got the markets, your lives, the economy, politics like these are all social. This isn't physics, these are all social institutions and so they are are changing all the time.
Speaker 4:We would call them complex adaptive systems, and so, instead of defending that map, when, when something goes on and this, this is where the comparison to mountain guide comes in. You know, if you hire a mountain guide and I, I've guided people and I've been guided in some really extreme situations and and I've had every single time, whether I was the guide or being guided, we made a great map, we had great maps, we had a great Trent route planned and Every single time, something happens that isn't according to the plan. So when that storm blows in, the last thing I want for my guide is for them to be to defend the plan. Like what are you talking about. Why are you so upset? Like this is the the weather said. Like what I really want for my guide is is empathy, yeah, and to say you know what. You're right, this is a big storm. It wasn't in the forecast at all Like I looked. I believe me. I looked at the forecast but guess what? I'm actually really good at Deciding what to do next in the face of what we would say like Irreducible uncertainty, like I don't know exactly what's gonna happen 10 steps from now, but I know the next step. I got all these tools, my backpack. We're really good at this. I'm actually not a trained map drawer. I'm not only a trained map drawer, I'm a trained guide who knows how to deal with uncertainty.
Speaker 4:So I think if clients understand that the job of your good financial planner actually isn't to draw you, isn't to draw you a map that will actually be representative of the future, their job is to draw that map and then realize where, quickly, look, we call it, look for disconfirming evidence, like look where we're off track. And Then come to you even and say, hey, you know we're off track a bit here. That could because the markets went down. It could be because you didn't get the inheritance. You thought you didn't get the raise. You thought you sold your house for more than you thought you inherited some money from a great lost uncle. It could be good or bad reasons, but so let me just wrap up with this.
Speaker 4:Financial planning done right is much more About being a little less wrong tomorrow. Then it is about being precisely correct today, and I think what you want to hire is somebody who's good at that. Who's good at, first of all, like a technical rock star, right, good at drawing the map. But the real skill is empathetically guiding you when the Inevitable uncertainty shows up, because it will. If they're trying to sell you certainty, if they're trying to sell you certainty, you know that you it's easy to sell to you, but it's impossible to deliver Right. So that's how I think of that. So I really think that's like you don't want a defender of an outdated map.
Speaker 2:You want somebody who can be a guide in a changing landscape so well said, and I I remember you know I've been a financial planner for over two decades, and Rewind 15 years ago the whole wrap was design a financial plan that had 40, 50, 60 pages to it and it went into Great detail in all these different areas. And I remember thinking to myself the moment you print out this, this plan, it becomes outdated, and so why put so much energy Into this ever-living document? And that around that time is when I came across your, your book, one page financial plan, and it really Helped me recognize that you know what the plan is. Just the starting point. We're always going to be making tweaks, a lot like an airline pilot that is mid-flight. The pilot is always tweaking their instruments, trying to make the experience as smooth for the passengers as possible. They're confident that they're going to be able to land the plane, but their flight plan is not going to be exactly the way they had designed it.
Speaker 2:And so I really got a lot out of your one-page financial plan because really I think in that one page you hone in on your values, you hone in on what financially you need, and it's a starting point and you're just always evolving. That it's not one and done Because life is constantly unfolding and there's all these curveballs. So to work with someone that's a guide is is the feeling that someone is working on your behalf and and you want empathy you want someone to say you know what this happened, we weren't expecting it, but because of that we can do this, this and this and still accomplish our goals long term. And so well said, carl, so Wilson.
Speaker 3:Thank you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mike, anything to add to that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know I'll jump in.
Speaker 3:Listening to what you shared, carl, it makes me think about If clients or those who are looking to work with a financial advisor, just reminding that it's very similar to other variables in our lives and if we could sometimes kind of make that connection.
Speaker 3:For example, I've got two kids. I remember the day my wife and I took our first born home. We didn't know what to do, we did not know, we didn't have a map of exactly of how to be that good parent and so forth. There were so many variables, so many changes, including ourselves, and I think if we can apply some of those similar analogies but you may not know what the end result is but you get better at making decisions, you get better at understanding yourself more, which makes the job a little bit easier, and in the end, with all the variables of using that as an analogy whether have an, a student or whatever you just want to have, raise a good person, in the end, and same thing having a roadmap, if you will, is to meet that success, whatever it might look like for anyone on a financial means.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, so I think that's a good idea is to think of the connections that we may already have some experience with, and it could be applied in this case as well.
Speaker 4:If I love. I love that. I mean I think it's funny because in in In some areas of our lives we really, really don't like. We don't like uncertainty and and generally humans are wired. We're certainly seeking machines. We're generally wired not to like uncertainty. The problem is, uncertainty is reality, like that's just reality. But it's fun to think about areas of your lives where you do like uncertain.
Speaker 4:You actually pay for it and you call it a different word you use, you call it surprise or you call it drama, and you don't go to a movie because you know exactly what the plot is gonna be. I mean, unless it's a Marvel movie, right, but you don't go, you don't start a new novel because you know exactly. I I spent a lot of time outdoors and we just got back from a five-day River trip. I don't go on River trips because I know, in fact I go specifically like we have a very detailed plan, we have a menu, we have everything planned out and I know for sure that there will be multiple times where things go drastically different than our plan and I know for sure that, upon reflection, the most valuable part of the trip will be the times that it goes not according to the plan. So I think if we, you know surfing like nobody surfs because they know exactly what every single wave is going to be you would stop surfing if it was. It's like that's called running on a treadmill, right, like. So I think, if we can get more comfortable, because here's the deal, right, you don't have a choice. Yeah, like, uncertainty is reality when you blend humans and markets and a whole group of humans together, like we're, we're it's not the Mars rover like we're not gonna be able to. So To me, the most important part of this is to develop a sense of like. And you know, like how many times have you had friends and clients and I do this all the time, so I'm not picking on anybody but, um, oh, that was a one time thing. Oh, we blew the budget this month. Oh, it was one time expense, it was like, after 10 years of that like every month, I finally realized, after 10 years, 120 examples. You know well, it turns out there's a one time thing every month.
Speaker 4:So if we just get comfortable with the idea of like, I don't know I'm going to do the best I can and to me, what that process looks like, really like, the most important thing is where are you today? And this is from the literature around complexity theory when are you today? Like, get really clear and then just solve. The literature says solve for the next local optimum. What that means is like what's the next step?
Speaker 4:If we could just keep like you, look up and you say like 30 years out there, I kind of think I want to go that direction. That's the purpose of the goal, is it gives you a sense of direction, right, and then all you have to do is say, well, where am I today? What direction do I want to go? Okay, I want to head that way, don't be too connected to it, but I want to head that way. So what's the next bet, the next micro action in that direction, when we just string those together for 50 years and that's called financial planning? No right, it's never.
Speaker 4:And so I think if you get, you find yourself getting frustrated that things are changed or you're off course. Man, I just think the best thing I'm trying to train myself to do that I could just feel it. I could feel it right now, as I said it, like I'm frustrated, things are off course. I could feel it where I feel it in my body. If you can start to notice that, then you can just sort of, oh, and right now I'm a little hunched over and, you know, shoulders sort of scrunch together. But if I could notice it suddenly like a little bit of breath and my shoulders go back and I get it more expansive, and then I can start to go oh, that's right, that's right. This is what it means. I just need to make a decision.
Speaker 4:My wife just called the electricians at the house. Turns out it's going to be four times more than we planned. I used to be like, oh, today I noticed myself going and I was like well, you know what? That's what do we need to get that done? It's probably a pretty good idea that you don't have a fire Like that's a good idea. Okay, then let's just go. Why have all the angst?
Speaker 4:You're going to write the check anyway. You know, I think there's a lot to noticing how we feel about things. Paying attention to the patterns, you probably most of your listeners are probably dealing with 20, 30, maybe even 40 year patterns and just asking ourselves, like you have let me just grab all of your listeners permission. You have permission to think about that pattern. If it's not working for you the way you've been handling a certain thing with money, like the way I would have normally handled that bill from the electrician, that's not going to work. You have permission to decide to have a different pattern, like you are allowed to do that. And I think to me that's this idea of just starting to notice and then notice the other areas of our lives. Oh, I do that over there, why can't I do that here? That's, to me, the beauty of this whole game we call financial planning.
Speaker 2:So true, and my wife introduced me to something that she read a little while ago, talking about how life. A lot of times we carry armor. We carry armor based on what we're trying to accomplish and armor to protect us. But that armor that we've had on for the last decade or two to get us to where we are today is great but, knowing all the unknowns in the future, that armor that we're carrying may not be the right armor going forward. And we always have to be self aware of what armor we need to let go and what armor we need to be putting on based on tomorrow's challenge or that next decision that we have to make.
Speaker 2:And you bring up such a great point that there is a lot of lack of comfortability and there's so much uncertainty out there and sometimes that kind of gets into our mental state and can really prohibit us from taking advantage of wonderful opportunities or just not even giving ourselves enough credit. And I've noticed recently that some of your work has been around people feeling anxious and not experienced success internally, and the condition often makes people feel that they're a fraud or they're a phony or doubting their abilities. And that condition that I've heard you talk a lot about and I'd love to hear your words on this is that imposter syndrome where someone is in a situation and they feel like they're not worthy of doing it or that they're not qualified to do that, and if you carry that too long, you end up being your own kryptonite and how we have to. You know, what are some ways that individuals can get beyond that imposter syndrome and to really open themselves up to new opportunities, as well as to recognize that they perhaps are selling themselves short.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's really interesting to me. This idea of so imposter syndrome is just a kind of a unique strain of fear, at least the way I'm talking about. I realize there is some version of this that's an actual syndrome that needs help, and I'm not referring to that. What I'm talking about is this unique fear, unique strain of fear that we've all felt, and I can give you a couple of examples. If you can remember back to the first time you were in a room where you were the person that had to make the decision, you often walk into that room, you sit around the table and you're like where's the adult? And you realize you're the adult. Or maybe you've produced a piece, a thing that you think of as, or that other people think of as art, and you don't want to use that term because it's too precious, but you drew something, or you have to be an actor in a play, or you've written a book, or maybe it's just that you want to make a change in your work. You're a surgeon and you're feeling like I'd like to just go back to teaching, and what happens when we want to make those changes, when we want to do something different, is this little voice comes up and it's universal and it doesn't go away with success, which is really interesting to me. There's a great little clip about the most I'm going to use this word carefully. Most US presidents, the first time they're in the Oval Office alone, are like how did I get here? Right, and there might be some that would be excluded and we don't have to get into that. But most US presidents, how did I get here? So what happens is this little voice says wait, who gave you permission to do that? You're a surgeon. What do you mean? You're going to go teach. What are you talking about? That sharpie thing you drew on cardstock? You're a kid from the hills in Utah. Wait till they find out. Wait till they find out. Or another version of imposter syndrome is yeah, you've just been lucky. Nothing you've ever done is just lucky. Wait till your luck runs out. So there's a bunch of versions of imposter syndrome. I call them archetypes and I think the key to imposter syndrome is.
Speaker 4:Here's the thing for me. I see a lot of talk around fear and imposter syndrome that says things like kick fear in the teeth and you'll see the bumper sticker like no fear. I don't like that, because fear is a genetic. An imposter syndrome, too, is a genetic trait that's kept us alive. There was a time when it was really important, and there might still be times, but there was a time and I've actually been told recently.
Speaker 4:I forget about this people. I remember somebody telling me about their grandfather's experience in Vietnam and they were like my grandfather taught me to keep my head down and not make much of a ruckus, because if I did, if my grandfather had, he would be dead and you're like. All it needs is one reminder for us to remember that there are times when that thing is really that voice is really important. So, rather than say get away, what I like to do is just sort of notice it. Oh, that's interesting. Here I am going to write an email to a friend, ask them if they want to go do something fun, and I feel like there's lines in the bushes. Well, that's genetically a trait keeping you safe, but you can look over it. What Elizabeth Gilbert says is imposter syndrome, or that fear is like your crazy uncle they're allowed to come on the trip, but they are not allowed to drive.
Speaker 4:And so what I noticed was that everything I ever did like and this is an exercise your listeners could do like go back and make a list of the most meaningful experiences in your life, you know like I would put my marriage on that there, I'd put the birth of each of my four kids, I would put when I started a business, every one of those. That feeling was there. You know, mike you referred to earlier, like what, who thought this was a good idea? To let us take this thing home from the hospital, right, right? So we all, we all. And so if that feeling is that every cool thing you've ever done, why would we want to get rid of it? So I think, instead we just learned to recognize it. And there was this.
Speaker 4:This story and this is where I'll end on this question is the Buddha was teaching at the Bhoodai tree and there was this. There's this mythical character in Buddhism called Mara, who's like a mischievous devil, and the Buddha was teaching to a bunch of people and Mara was running around, apparently out of the bushes, causing trouble, and one of the Buddha's attendants came up and said really concerned, buddha, mara is here. And the Buddha took a deep breath and said oh good, inviter, inverti. And that's my favorite way of thinking about imposter syndrome Like, oh, that fear's here.
Speaker 4:Oh good, hey, I actually personify it those of you who can't see, but it's right on my desk, which is Mr Burns from the Simpsons. This is what that fear looks like to me Every time it shows up. Mr Burns is in the room and now what I say is like I feel this, oh the fear. And then I wait and I go oh, that's right, and I look over and I see Mr Burns and I say, hey, I'm glad you're here, let's get to work, we're about to do something cool. So that's how I think about imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that is just so right on. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I think of my own experience and there's been a number of times that I have felt a bit of that imposter syndrome, and one that stands out was that very first day of teaching at Arizona State University as a professor. I had been a CFP for some 15 years and I'd been a practitioner, but there was something about as the kids were coming into the classroom that very first day, just like you said, carl, I don't belong here. Why am I the adult in the room? And I remember it was five minutes until the class started and I was feeling very anxious and I just started writing down my doubts of, like, what am I doing here?
Speaker 2:This could be a big mistake, but I found that when you lean into those fears and you kind of just acknowledge it and you say, well, it is what it is and let's just embrace it as much as we can, a lot of times as you start getting going, some of those anxieties can kind of begin to melt away.
Speaker 2:But I definitely agree with you If you see something that you're fearful of, almost kind of look it in the face, embrace it, welcome it, welcome its pain and once you really welcome it instead of trying to defend yourself against that pain, once you embrace it, then you realize that many times you still have enough strength to take one more step forward. And every step you take forward from there it gets just a little bit easier and easier until that anxiety and that fear just slowly evaporates. So I'm sure every listener has experienced that to some degree and we all will experience more of that to come and hopefully our listeners will think of some of your antidotes when they experience some anxiety as they are going forward and living their best life.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, wonderful. Well, Carl, anything else to add? Or Mike, anything else that you want to add? I know how busy you are, Carl, and we're so grateful for you making the time to talk with us and our audience today, but I first want to let Mike if he has any questions or any insights. We often call Mike our Buddha here at Jacob Golden Associates. He's always soft, gentle, empathetic and has really great wisdom, so I want to make sure to give him enough time to sprinkle some of his magic on and then any last words that you might have, Carl.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, thanks, jake, as a kind words, carl. One comment I'll mention explaining what you're explaining because it's interesting. There's no physical or tangible thing with what you're talking about or what we're talking about today, which makes it a little bit more difficult. Going back to what you originally said, in financial planning, the math, the numbers, those appear to be more tangible, but some of the planning piece of it isn't. So.
Speaker 3:When you mentioned about that imposter syndrome, I'm a real visual learner, so sometimes to learn about myself, I watch it with others. I might see my son go through an experience and I'm like I might give that advice and I'm like I got to listen to that for myself sometimes because it's easier to visually watch or observe others and that triggers me to learn from myself. So that might help some of the listeners that it's harder to see it within yourself or your actions, but you might watch it. Another. So a quick comment on that. And then I got a question for you that I thought might kind of pertain to our discussion today, and so I love the idea of mixing art and finance and figure. I'd ask the question so would you say you enjoy more of the art side or the finance piece of it more?
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Speaker 4:Deniably art, but I don't know where the difference is anymore. I just think of every business or project I work on I think of as an art project. I think financial planning done right is actually art, because you're creating something that doesn't exist. Currently, I just view it as a giant art project. I think it's more fun to view that way. Anyway, it requires faith. It requires belief in something that doesn't exist yet. I think it's as close to art as we can get with a very important technical foundation. We know plenty of financial advisors and I did that for the listeners and air quotes that are just running around selling things and telling stories. Faith and story is not financial planning, but a foundation of really solid math, the science of financial planning. Then we lay it on top of it. This beautiful art, the art of financial planning, is where everybody's lives are.
Speaker 3:I just think of them as both art and math, art and science that makes sense and trying to connect those is that where that chemistry comes into play is having the art and putting the math or the technical pieces together, and it takes years to do that. But my daughter loves art. She's been doing art for years and it's amazing to see the progress in its years. It's not a few days or hey, I'm going to tackle this this weekend. Hence, I think your comment and point about how you definitely mix the art and the dated together and great, great answer, thank you. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2:And, carl, going back to something you were saying earlier, is I remember when I first became a financial planner, trying to understand modern portfolio theory, and one law to modern portfolio theory, and you've got to have this flaw, otherwise there's just no model there is. In modern portfolio theory, you're assuming that the investor is rational, and that is the one thing that we can never assume is that any person is going to be rational in times of great uncertainty, and so I feel like what you're saying about being an artist and to be able to communicate something that doesn't exist today. That's where financial planners can make the biggest difference is being able to take that unknown and to be able to be somewhat of an artist and be visual and have them see what their future might look like if they begin to make the best decisions possible, not like five, six, seven steps ahead, but the next step. It's always the next step, and I remember hearing something that you wrote about or you said about where, if you're sitting at your desk and you look in front of you, you see everything in great detail, but then, if you move two steps forward, how much different your perspective is and how much more you can gain clarity on, and that's all we're trying to do as financial planners is get to know a person's situation, get to know what their values are, what their goals are, put together something that is somewhat of a loose framework, but together we work to get them to accomplish their goals, all while knowing that there's going to be curveballs, there's going to be setbacks, there's going to be times that the portfolios do better than expected, but all of that together, that's part of the journey.
Speaker 2:And I have three kids. I have two girls and a son, and my oldest daughter, who's a senior in high school this year. When she was a little girl, she used to love Hannah Montana, miley Cyrus, the Disney show, and I remember Hannah Montana had a song called the Climb and it's all about. The song is talking about how life is, about the journey, it's about the climb, and as soon as you get at the top of the mountain, you're going to see three more mountain tops that you have to work towards and you've got to embrace the joy of the climb that you're in right now.
Speaker 2:And so I would say anybody that's listening to this podcast episode, if they're not already a client of Jacob Golden Associates, if someone is looking for a guide. Someone is looking for someone to have empathy and understand where they are today and and help be their guide to get them to where they want to be. I think that that is the most valuable type of financial planner, instead of, just like what you said, carl, someone just putting a product in front of your face and having you buy into it that. That is not, in my mind, financial planning, and we really believe in education and that art form of helping people connect their money and their value together yeah, for sure no, and I think we need more of that in the world.
Speaker 2:So thanks yeah, no, thank you. We really appreciate all the hard work that you do and you know we I actually I use a lot of your your drawings at ASU. I'll redraw them and I'll always give you credit of saying hey, this, this comes from Carl Richards of the sketch guy of the New York Times, and just want you to know that you're putting a lot of of good content out there and you're starting a lot of positive conversations. Because, going back to that taboo, people just don't want to talk about money and I think you do a great job of demystifying money and allowing people the opportunity to talk about it. And if someone can talk about it and and feel comfortable in exploring that, I think that everyone would be able to take a few steps forward financially. So you were doing more than your part and us professionals in industry we recognize those efforts and we just we encourage you to keep going because you're making a really positive impact thank you Jacob, thank you Michael yeah, my pleasure yeah
Speaker 2:the pleasure was all ours. We hope that our our paths cross again someday, but in the meantime, keep doing what you're doing up in park city, keep writing books, keep touring, because I feel that our society needs that type of optimism and that type of a strategy on how to move forward in an ever-changing marketplace, in an ever-changing world thank you, guys have a great day, thank you you too, you take care.
Speaker 1:Bye, bye, bye thank you for listening to the finance roundtable podcast. Make sure to check out other episodes at wwwfinancetroundtablepodcastcom. We also encourage you to explore wwwjacobgoldcom to find articles, research videos and more from jacob gold and associates incorporated. If you have a question that you would like to be answered on air, please call 480-998-4653, extension 12, and leave a message.
Speaker 2:Jacob Gold and Michael Koshell are financial advisors offering securities and advisory services through Cetera advisor networks LLC. Doing insurance business in California as CFG GAN insurance agency LLC, member FINRA SIPC, a broker dealer and registered investment advisor. Cetera is under separate ownership from any other named entity jacob's california insurance license 0E55425. Michaels california insurance license 0K90130. The views depicted in this material are for information purpose only and are not necessarily those of Cetera advisor network. They should not be considered specific advice or recommendations for any individual. Neither Cetera advisor networks nor any of its representative may give legal or tax advice. Kelvin gold is a marketing associate. Registered address is 14850 north scott's del road, suite 255, scott's del arizona, 85254.