Why No Kill is Failing: The Case for a Smarter Approach to Rescue

The no-kill movement promised to revolutionize animal sheltering by saving lives and ending unnecessary euthanasia. But behind the catchy slogans and glowing statistics, a different reality lurks – one that’s rarely discussed. In this eye-opening conversation with animal welfare expert Daniel Ettinger, we dig deep into the issues plaguing some shelters striving for that elusive 90% live release rate.

As a rescuer myself, I'm experiencing a system overwhelmed by its own ambitions. Shelters don't have a clear understanding of what it means to be no-kill, and communities are not set up to provide all the realities needed to make no-kill work. Instead, shelters are closing their doors when full to avoid euthanasia and maintain high live-release rates, finders are stuck with animals they can’t keep, and rescues are buckling under overflow. Even worse, some animals are warehoused for years, leading to questionable quality of life. Daniel shares a more balanced alternative – SMART (Saving More Animals Responsibly Together), an approach that addresses the root causes and focuses on community resources, transparency, and responsible care.

We discuss how the relentless pursuit of arbitrary statistics, like the 90% live release rate, has led to dangerous consequences, including the adoption of unsafe animals and public safety issues. We also explore why adopting more pets isn’t the solution and how real change starts with accessible veterinary care, housing policy reform, and community education.

This episode challenges the black-and-white thinking surrounding animal rescue and offers a fresh perspective on how we can all contribute to more sustainable, humane solutions. Tune in for an honest look at the no-kill movement and discover why we need a smarter approach to animal welfare.

Quick Update: We’re taking a short break and will be back with a batch of fresh episodes starting August 10! 
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Chapters

• 0:00 No-Kill Movement's Unintended Consequences
• 3:46 Defining No-Kill: The Industry Confusion
• 10:56 Closed Doors and Warehouse Sheltering
• 18:10 Introducing SMART: A Better Approach
• 23:02 Balancing Public Safety and Animal Welfare
• 36:09 Community Support and Adoption Advocacy
• 49:15 Working Together: Building a United Future

Transcript

Amy Castro: 0:32

You've seen the memes, you've heard the slogans, but what if I told you the no-kill movement isn't working like we thought it would and in fact, it's quietly hurting the animals we claim to protect? In this episode, we're pulling back the curtain on what's really happening in shelters and rescues and why it's time for a better way forward. Stay tuned, way forward, stay tuned. Hey there, and welcome to Muddy Paws and Hairballs, the podcast that skips the sugarcoating and dives straight into the messy, meaningful and sometimes maddening world of pet parenting and rescue. I'm your host, amy Castro, and today we're going there.

Amy Castro: 1:13

The no-kill movement started with good intentions Save more lives, stop unnecessary euthanasia and push for change. And that sounded great Until shelters started closing their doors to animals, not because they didn't care, but because they were trying to meet the public's demand for a 90% no-kill live release rate. That number may look great on paper, but what about the fallout? It's leaving finders stuck, animals dumped and some shelters warehousing animals for years with no real plan for their future. My guest today is Daniel Ettinger, an animal welfare professional, former animal control officer and host of the Keep it Humane podcast. Together, we're digging into what's broken in the no-kill model, why saving them all isn't always the most humane choice or the safest for the public and how we can start shifting towards a more honest, balanced and truly humane approach to animal welfare. So if you're ready to rethink what rescue should look like without the PR spin, then this episode is for you. Daniel, welcome to the show.

Daniel Ettinger: 2:19

Thanks for having me.

Amy Castro: 2:21

I appreciate you coming on here. Like I was saying before we got started, this is a topic that I've wanted to address and I've kind of dropped some little hints along the way, but I feel like, you know, getting it out there in more detail would be beneficial, and I'm seeing people more and more in rescue and, you know, just seeing that smart infographic. That basically that's how I found you is because I saw that infographic and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what we need. People are getting a little bit more brave about putting it out there and basically talking about no kill and where it's working, where it's not, and maybe there might be a better option. So just to kind of kick things off, because you're the expert, I think everybody's heard of no-kill, but what does that mean? I mean, what is it in a nutshell?

Daniel Ettinger: 3:03

I think that's part of the problem. To be honest, amy, I really do, and I've had this discussion with many people, not even people that are in the industry, not shelter workers, not rescue workers. One of the trips that I've been on recently took me to good old San Antonio, texas, I think that's how you're supposed to say it, san.

Daniel Ettinger: 3:36

Antonio, Texas I think that's how you're supposed to say it San Antonio. And while I was there, I was teaching a group of social workers for the military and the first question that I was asked in that training was are there any shelters that are not no-kill left in the United States? Wow, shelters that are not no-kill left in the United States Wow.

Daniel Ettinger: 3:57

That's. The problem is, we don't know what it means. In her mind, she thinks that every animal gets to either live out the rest of its life in a shelter or sanctuary and that we adopt out pretty much any and every animal we can. And I wish that was the case, amy. I really do. It's not Right. So the definition is I just don't know.

Amy Castro: 4:21

Yeah, and we hear that a lot around here when I was volunteering at Animal Control you know it was are you no kill? And it's like, okay, I kind of think of it as a show game. It's like it depends on what you consider kill, no kill. You know, is euthanasia part of the equation? I mean, it just becomes this very complex thing. But it's not as black and white as everybody lives, or they don't.

Daniel Ettinger: 4:47

There is a need for euthanasia, and if anybody says there's not, they are delusional, I'll just throw it out there. And if anybody says there's not, they are delusional, I'll just throw it out there. I'm just going to be blunt about that. There is a need, there's a behavioral need and there's a medical need. Now, was there a time, is there still a time, where euthanasia happens for time and space? It hasn't happened in my world in the last 16 years that I've been in this profession, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It hasn't happened in my world, and so I think the intention behind it was good. Amy, I think that you know, but it depends on who you ask and what you ask. Organizations and I'm not talking just one, I'm talking big and small that may have used that terminology to help fund their mission or their goals, because it's just a genius marketing term.

Amy Castro: 5:45

Yeah. So you know, I think the intention behind it is good. I think the intent to say we shouldn't be euthanizing for space, we shouldn't be euthanizing if it's avoidable, healthy, adoptable animal, and I believe that. But I think the other thing that people need to consider is that there are a lot of factors that feed into the whole animal sheltering, animal rescue, animal welfare world that need to be in place just so in order to create that reality.

Amy Castro: 6:24

Like I had a lady the other day that posted when I had said something no kills not working. Her comment was it's working in my neighborhood. I said what do you mean? Well, you know, we've really helped a lot of feral cats by doing trapped neuter return and it's like okay, so trapped neuter return is working in your neighborhood, great, so it's like you know, and she's right.

Amy Castro: 6:43

I mean that's a piece of the puzzle. Like ideally you'd have all these pieces in play and then you wouldn't be in as dire a situation for euthanizing healthy, adoptable animals. But the reality is especially here in Texas I don't know what it's like in California is that those other pieces aren't in play. Trap neuter return is in many, even though the state has made it legal. There are municipalities that say you can't release an animal because that's putting an animal at large and that's illegal. There are communities that don't want that in their community because they don't want cats, you know, climbing on their cars. And so if that one piece doesn't work, what are the other pieces that aren't working? You know, what are you seeing? That are the pieces that are missing to make that work.

Daniel Ettinger: 7:28

I think, first and foremost, the terminology creates this divide in our community.

Daniel Ettinger: 7:33

And in that creates this divide in our community and that's taking away from other avenues where we can truly create a kind of a harmonious, working, just animal welfare world where we're all trying to chip in to help people, help animals. We say that on our podcast all the time help people, help animals. And people ask well, what does that mean? And it's we don't do enough to focus on what the community actually needs. We try to meet this arbitrary number and that's that 90% live release rate. That is a very arbitrary number and data will support that.

Daniel Ettinger: 8:13

I think the community needs access to care. So low-cost bayoneter, low-cost vaccinations, low-cost services. So if I have a dog that needs a hip replacement, or I'm not just giving it to the shelter, or a dog with pyometra, I'm not just giving it to the shelter. Or a puppy with parvo, right, I'm not euthanizing it or giving it to the shelter because I can't care for it. So we need to find those mechanisms.

Daniel Ettinger: 8:36

And then that second piece, that second tier to that, is we need to find appropriate rules for housing. So if you rent, if you're a renter, you may know how difficult it is to have pets as a renter and that I don't know what percentage that would change Like if you polled people that currently can't have a pet because of their apartment. How much would that go up? And what I mean by that is, if I want a pet, I'm going to have a pet Like, regardless. I'm going to either make it an emotional support animal or I'm just going to live with it in my apartment. And they better not say nothing because if they do, I'll just keep my pet and they'll have to evict me, right. So there's that. I don't know if that's going to give us like a 10% increase in adoptions from the shelter or a 50% increase, and I don't know if there's a mechanism to truly track that, but we have to find ways to soften that so we can have just around, all around for all animals, all pets, just better resources in general.

Amy Castro: 9:57

All animals, all pets. I have a dog that I need to give up, or I found a dog I need to do this, or whatever it might be. It's like why? What is the situation? First, and oftentimes it does come down to lack of resources for medical treatment, which we provide in many instances, or the housing situation. That's a whole nother. I mean, we could do a whole episode on that in and of itself. But the challenge is and you see, people you know you made the comment about, you know, having the alternative is turning it into a shelter Around here, the way that the shelter so this is the ripple effect that I was trying to explain, apparently not very eloquently on Facebook the other day is that you know, all of these shelters in our area, the municipal ones and the non-municipal ones, even if they don't want to call themselves no-kill because they don't want to be held to that standard, they're all trying to live to that standard.

Amy Castro: 10:48

You know they're very proud of putting out their live release rates and I think those numbers, like you mentioned, I mean, what is a live release rate? What is 90%? What's included in that? What's not included in that is a whole shell game in my book. But what they do is they basically close doors. So, whereas a municipal shelter, who I would think their role is to keeping the community safe and you know safety would include not allowing dogs running down the highway because it can cause a wreck, if nothing else, sure that they are flat out saying no, we can't come get it because we're full. But they've got that 90% live release rate.

Daniel Ettinger: 11:27

And why are we judging the success of any individual, or shelter or rescue, on their live release rate? It should be much more than that.

Amy Castro: 11:37

Yeah, but that's what people have stuck in their head. I mean people will literally call us as a rescue and say, are you no kill? Or they'll say well, I don't want to adopt from a blah blah because I'll refer them Like you should go to this shelter, oh, I don't want to adopt from them because they're not no kill.

Daniel Ettinger: 11:52

But when you want to help them more kill.

Amy Castro: 11:54

That's exactly who you should be adopting from is the highest kill shelter you can find. The mindset is just people are just delusional. They don't have a clue what's really going on.

Daniel Ettinger: 12:07

What blows my mind right is you can get a plaque that says I don't even know what the plaque says it comes from and it says, like in 2024, you are a no-kill shelter or whatever.

Daniel Ettinger: 12:23

I think that's what it is. That's all they're looking at. They're not looking at. How many community events did you do? Did you do spay and neuter services? Did you offer low-cost vaccinations throughout the year? Are you giving away microchips for free? Are you working in schools doing humane education so we can tell the youth what's important, Like? Are all we looking at to get that plaque is a number? Do you just have to hit 90%?

Amy Castro: 12:45

Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah. And that's the sad thing and you know, even the owner surrenders I mean, that was the first to go around here is that we can keep our numbers down by not taking owner surrenders, and so I always find it funny. But people say, well, I'll be forced to take it to the shelter. And I want to laugh and say, yeah, good luck with that, because there's not a shelter in the area that's going to take it. Or people will be again very proud that such and such an organization is no kill.

Amy Castro: 13:14

And it's like, well, it's easy to be no kill if you put all kinds of parameters on what you take through your doors. Like I only take, you know, pink poodles that are between the ages of two and four years. You know what I mean. It's like, yeah, then it's easy because those are the highly desirable ones. It's the other ones that don't have any choice about what they take in that end up with those animals that sit and sit and sit. So there's just so much that feeds into that that the public's not aware of, and they just kind of go along and drink the Kool-Aid 100%, that's the term we hear a lot.

Daniel Ettinger: 13:48

They're drinking the Kool-Aid.

Amy Castro: 13:50

Yeah. So what are you seeing as far as the impact? I know for me what we're seeing here and just in my little small world. We're seeing finders, just as an example, basically being stuck with animals and, like I found a husky on the side. No, this is a good one.

Amy Castro: 14:09

A guy said my son saw a husky running in the street and he picked it up and he brought it home and I can't find anybody to take it. Can you take it? It's like no, I can't take it. Well, what am I supposed to do with it? And what I really want to say is I guess you just better let it go, because if you can't keep it and you can't care for it and you can't find anybody to take it, what are you supposed to do? And then people get mad. You never should have picked it up in the first place.

Amy Castro: 14:32

I mean, I don't know what to tell people, but people are getting stuck and they don't realize the ripple effect of the shelter is full. The shelters, you know, they're trying to maintain that number. They're full. Then they basically say well, we're full, call the rescues. Now I'm telling you I'm full because I'm taking all the overflow that they didn't take. And then people are being stuck in it. You know, it just creates this ripple effect of more animals just being left on the street or people finding animals and being stuck with animals that they can't care for, and that's just one impact. What else? What else is the kind of the downside of this attempt at playing this shell game?

Daniel Ettinger: 15:14

I take my time to answer these questions because I think I'll be honest, amy, I don't know if there is truly Like it's. It's all hypotheticals in some aspects because the data is not out there as far as like what's really happening. There's data out there that will support whatever goal or mission you're trying to accomplish, but what I can say from an anecdotal perspective would be that it's creating an environment where, like you said, people don't want to go to a shelter that's open in mission because they feel like they don't adhere to the no-kill policies, and then what happens is those animals are less likely to get adopted because people are angry or upset with that shelter. You have that aspect and, again, I don't know how accurate that is. That's just an anecdotal response to what I've heard or seen.

Daniel Ettinger: 16:15

You have people that are turned away from releasing animals or, excuse me like whether it's owner surrender or strays, that you know. There's some stories if you just Google what happens, and there's some really negative things that happen because of that, where animals are treated really, really, really poorly, which may include death because that person is frustrated and takes it out on the animal. Obviously we don't condone anything like that, because they feel helpless, they feel like we've tried and then you're turning us away. So the next best thing to do is X, which is not the next best thing to do, but it's an emotional response to an emotional situation and it's not rational.

Daniel Ettinger: 16:58

And I think, having those barriers in place, it's almost like we have to be tribal in this situation, and not that we intend to be, but that's what it is. It's like you either subscribe to the one tribe which is no kill, or you're against it, and I don't think that's the way that it should be. And again, going back to your initial question, I don't know if that was the way that it was intended. I think egos get involved and I think people run with certain things because their name's behind that and they want to see. You know, see it just continue to grow.

Amy Castro: 17:31

There's a lot of other challenges that I have with the impact of no kill from organizations and we've done it too. We've had the dog or the cat that's been in our program for X amount of time and we're so proud of the fact that after 275 days, you know, I think the difference for me is that our 275 days, the animals living in a home, not living in a cage somewhere, for you know, five years of its life or whatever the case may be, and whether that's the best thing and what that, but I will say that the whole. I mean I've got a pit bull in my. She's not in my living room right now because I'm showing my house, so all of my pets are out in my dog kennel building that I built.

Amy Castro: 18:10

But you know, I've had her in our program for two years because she's blind and she has other issues that make her not like the perfectly adoptable pet for just anybody. And it's like I often question myself and say is that the right thing or should? Because she's basically tied up a spot in my rescue for the last two years and how many animals who didn't have issues could I have taken in and turned over and gotten adopted out in them. So there's, you know, there's a lot of other factors that I think we could dive into as far as challenges, because we're trying to be no kill and do the right thing kill and do the right thing, but you know what else happens to.

Daniel Ettinger: 18:58

I didn't mean no, no, one of the things we didn't get into is you get people that call themselves rescues, right, and they do that because they there's a lot of factors, but they do that for whatever purpose it is, and then they go to these municipal shelters or shelters that don't use the label no kill and they'll take animals and then they'll warehouse them and then they become a problem in the community because now we have this excessive hoarding situation.

Daniel Ettinger: 19:21

Uh, we covered a really insane case out of colorado about, uh, louanne strickland, who in some senses was the queen of no kill um, in colorado, was a big, big supporter of that by the time of her death, when she was in upper eighties or nineties. She lived a long time. She was in possession of over 400 dogs and just deplorable living conditions, and so, like, where's that balance right? Like where's we don't want dogs living in horrid situations, but then, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, we play this emotional game of well, I don't want to have to put this animal down because of our own personal belief in death.

Amy Castro: 20:10

And.

Daniel Ettinger: 20:10

I don't know if we want to take the podcast there, but I think that has a strong piece to it as well.

Amy Castro: 20:16

Oh, yeah, 100%. I think there are things that are worse than death and being in a hoarding situation for your entire life or a huge chunk of your life. I think we spend too much time applying our human standards of life and death and our fear of death and applying that to an animal who has no fear of death and is just going to be here and not here, and so maybe that's better in some instances. But yeah, I mean that's. Another factor is the warehousing and the hoarding of animals, and that's not the point of a rescue. To me, a rescue is supposed to be a pipeline. Now, if you're a sanctuary for a certain type of animal, that's fine, but even then there's a limit to how much space that you have, and then you draw the limit and then you know when the animal dies of natural causes or whatever, then maybe you have a spot for something else, but you don't just keep stacking them to the ceilings, and I think that's what's happened, so that people and I think it's not even just the fear of death I think it's a huge piece of ego.

Amy Castro: 21:16

One of the examples that I can't remember if I mentioned this because I did a very short podcast episode last week about why I'm personally getting out of the hands on of rescue and I think I did did share this story, but I'll just share it with you.

Amy Castro: 21:31

It's like the person that finds an animal that can't use its back legs and can't urinate on its own, so it needs its bladder expressed multiple times a day and they're all in. They're going to do that four or five times a day for the rest of that animal's life and it's like, no, not on my watch, You're not, because that's not a life for that animal. You may be feeling like a hero and I think there's a certain amount of you know, hero complex, savior complex and even martyr complex. Like, look at what I've sacrificed for this poor animal. You know like I could put it out on social media and say how awesome I am because I expressed this animal's bladder five times a day for the last five years and it's like, yeah, that's just like I have a real big problem with that with that.

Amy Castro: 22:12

So talk to us about SMART, because it's just a better way of looking at this whole mess that we've created in a much more balanced and appropriate way, for the best of the animals, I think.

Daniel Ettinger: 22:25

I knew that there needed to be something to I hate to say it counter no-kill. That was the whole idea, and so what I wanted was hey, are you a no-kill shelter? No, we're actually a smart shelter, and here's why I worked with Dr G, Dr Michelle Gonzalez, who has her own podcast called the Animal Welfare Junction. She's awesome. She's been a super big supporter of smart, and so she and I were, you know, just texting back and forth and it just landed saving more animals responsibly together, and it's just perfect, it fits. That's. That's what we're trying.

Daniel Ettinger: 23:04

All of us are trying to do without ego, like we're just trying to get in there and see how we can help people, help animals, like that is our goal, that should be our goal and that's that was the birth, that was like how it really started, and so it's really to kind of come along and embrace that there is a need for something different.

Daniel Ettinger: 23:25

The biggest thing that I see, with no kill this is just a personal opinion Like nothing, I say is other than my own personal opinion is that we all search for an identity, whether that's individually or collectively or in a professional setting, whether it's the shelter we work for, whether it's our own lives, etc. And no kill was a great way to create an identity. I'm a no kill shelter I'm part of this big group, we are no kill was a great way to create an identity. I'm a no kill shelter. I'm part of this big group, we are no kill. And I think that really helped support that movement. And as I sit here and realize that the only other true identity out there was socially conscious sheltering, try saying that three times fast in a sentence.

Amy Castro: 24:05

Yeah, really.

Daniel Ettinger: 24:07

It was a great concept and I know some of the people that were involved in the background of that and I think that it was rightfully. It was great timing, just bad, poor name management. Truthfully, and I mean that with all due respect, as we now have this ability to like, focus and move forward, smart creates an identity for all of us as we work together. And the fun fact, the little side note the thing that I like the best about smart and it wasn't intentional when it was created was our industry and how we used to operate.

Daniel Ettinger: 24:44

We were dealing with dumb animals, and when I say that that was the terminology used in the 1800s to describe dogs and cats, they were dumb, right, even horses dumb. The Denver Dumb Friends League has been a very popular shelter for many, many, many, actually a century, and they finally changed the name to Humane Colorado, which is great Good for them. But to to bring it full circle, we've taken it from dumb to now smart and the goal is to really provide that identity, provide an opportunity for us to share resources, network together as a group, but then come up with other ways that we can work in our community to help people, help animals. Yeah.

Amy Castro: 25:35

So are there some basic tenets of the solution that SMART is proposing.

Daniel Ettinger: 25:40

First and foremost, it's just creating that environment of a community right. It's also creating an opportunity to work with your public health officials and One Health model. I don't know if you can hear my dog, but he's saying hello in the background.

Amy Castro: 25:58

It's a pet podcast. It's okay, that's how we do it.

Daniel Ettinger: 26:01

He sees a skateboard, I'm sure, and in that aspect it's really just trying to use practical applications on how we can help as a community. So, again, I can't stress enough the access to care piece. I can't stress enough that 90% doesn't mean anything. It's a made-up number with truly arbitrary and controlled data to make it what it is. Arbitrary and controlled data to make it what it is. It's that transparency piece to make sure that we're communicating with everyone, not just our staff but the community. And then responsible treatment. So what does responsible treatment look like? It's that aspect of truly making sure no animal is suffering due to behavioral issues or medical issues, and so it may sound a lot like what no-kill is, but it removes some barriers that are in place.

Amy Castro: 26:57

And you know it's interesting because I do see bits of like. There are several organizations in our area who are very, very focused on that and they're getting utilized Like a spay-neuter clinic, and they neutered 100 dogs this weekend. They're fully focused on that piece of it, because that's a piece of the puzzle. And then the other aspect I think too, is the behavioral element. I think part of the issue has been, and one of the reasons why at least around here, some of the no-kill has gotten a little bit of a tarnished reputation from a standpoint of a belief, is the animals that probably should not be adopted out to the public. That are being adopted out to the public and we saved it but to do what you know, to maim a child or to kill somebody or be chained in a backyard because it's not a safe animal to be around, and that's a whole nother piece of it too, I think.

Daniel Ettinger: 27:48

It is safe animal to be around, and that's a whole nother piece of it too. I think it is. And if you go back to an episode we did with Paulette Dean, who runs the Danville Animal Shelter in Virginia, she was attacked due to her live release rate and again you mentioned, every community is different. It was a great episode. This is her experience, not mine. But she talks about the threats that were made. Not only were people making threats, social media-wise people were in person, following staff members home and having conversations how dare you work there? To the point where people quit working at that shelter because they were in fear. Our goal is not to take an approach where we're going to bully people. Our goal is going to take the approach of how can we create that sense of community? So if I can't help you, maybe Amy can help you, and if Amy can't help you, maybe DrG can help you. And if Dr G can't help you, so-and-so may be willing to help you. And if Amy can't help you, maybe Dr G can help you. And if Dr G can't help you, so-and-so may be willing to help you. Versus you're going to do what I say because we are the conglomerate in this industry and if you don't do it, here's what's going to happen. And that's exactly what they did and thankfully she stood her ground and has continued to move forward with her shelter and what she knows how to do. We shouldn't have that in our industry.

Daniel Ettinger: 29:13

There was a case out of Denver where a dog bit a child in the face. I want to say the dog was a spaniel of some sort, maybe like a Springer or English, some sort of dog like that. It wasn't the first bite on record and it was their own child and they didn't want the dog in the house with the kid anymore. Totally get that. Yeah, when they surrendered the dog to the shelter, they surrendered it specifically for euthanasia. Somehow a rescue got involved and said no, no, no, no, no, no. That dog shouldn't be put to sleep. You should request that dog back.

Daniel Ettinger: 29:53

And Denver stood their ground for a while saying it was surrendered for euthanasia. We have an obligation for public safety. We're not going to release this dog. They literally picketed in front of the shelter. I don't know for how long, but there was a group picketing in front of the shelter. I don't know for how long, but there was a group picketing in front of the shelter, just throwing mud on them for wanting to euthanize a dog that bit a kid in the face, and it wasn't the first bite that it's had.

Daniel Ettinger: 30:17

What are we talking about, people? There's probably a dog in that shelter at that time that has been there for over 150, 200 days and you're worried about a dog that bit a kid in the face. But this dog that may look ugly and isn't the most adoptable candidate, because the way it looks, just because the way it looks, not its behavior, just because the way it looks why aren't you advocating for that dog? But you're going to advocate for a dog that bit a child in the face. Point to that story was the rescue finally was able to get the dog out after all this onslaught, and one of the quotes from that rescue and you being in that world, I'd love your take on this was we really beat them down.

Amy Castro: 30:58

Yeah, I believe it what are we doing?

Amy Castro: 31:01

What are we doing? I know, yeah, I think well, part of the issue is that and the challenge that I see with with rescues, is that element of cooperation is just not there. Everybody's got their little philosophy. Half the time it's not even adequately fleshed out or well thought out, and then they draw people like themselves that drink the Kool-Aid and then they start getting the pitchforks and the flaming torches and off they go. They're so focused on that one thing, that one save that one animal, that they're not seeing the bigger picture of things. And I mean it doesn't surprise me at all, to be perfectly honest. I mean everybody's quick to criticize and everybody's quick to try to be a hero, but not necessarily to acknowledge that tough decisions do need to be made and that it's just a very, very narrow minded way of looking at the big picture.

Daniel Ettinger: 31:57

To actually say like we really beat them down to give in to what we wanted. Basically tells me everything I need to know about you in your organization, like you're not really here for the animals, you're here for you.

Amy Castro: 32:08

Well, that's why it goes back to that ego and savior thing, and it's like saving for what? Like you said, there's probably more than one other dog. There's probably seven other dogs sitting in that shelter that were more deserving of their time and effort to rescue and find a home for than the one that bit a kid and bit other people. But that's the one that they jump on that bandwagon for 100%. So what do you say to people who give pushback on taking this smart approach? Or are you getting pushback at all?

Daniel Ettinger: 32:40

It's been somewhat overwhelming and unexpected the amount of inquiry and just interest and wanting to be heard. Again. It comes back to providing that safe space and identity for us as a group to really say like yeah, we're part of this smart shelter group, like let's help people, help animals, come on, um, I got a message from someone in the deep South. Can I say that I've always wanted to say the deep South South? Can I say that I've always wanted to say the deep South? Sure, and, and at first I thought they were like supporting, like the. The email was like I'm confused, like are they supporting this? They were like giving me the background on Nathan Winograd and how he came up with the 90% live release rate. And I'm like, here we go and we had a conversation yesterday and we talked for probably an hour and just I hope she's listening. If not, maybe I'll send it to her because it was just a wonderful conversation about two people with different views.

Daniel Ettinger: 33:38

She's not going to give up the no kill conversation and terminology. That is her identity. But she also is supportive of what smart is and so I think it felt good to find somebody for her. I think it felt good for someone like to find someone like me or smart, where we're providing that place for them to like. Focus on what's the true problem? The true problem is access to care. Like we're not spaying and neutering our pets, we're not providing a way for them to get the help that they need. What do we think is going to happen? We're going to have high intake, high populations in our shelters and we're not going to be able to we're never going to be able to adopt our way out of it, that is just a facetious.

Daniel Ettinger: 34:35

That's not the right word I'm looking for. What's the word?

Amy Castro: 34:37

A delusional. Delusion yeah.

Daniel Ettinger: 34:41

Yeah, we're not going to adopt our way out of it. We're going to work our way out of it by providing those resources in our communities. And then, one day, long beyond probably, either of our existence or consciousness on this planet, we'll be importing—we shouldn't do it now, but we already do—importing animals from other countries, because we won't have any here to adopt.

Amy Castro: 35:04

Yeah, and I've had that conversation with people before too, and I think this is something that's important for you know, because this podcast is specifically targeted to pet parents. If I'm just an average person out in the community, I am thinking about getting a pet, or I just like animals and I care about animals, what should I be doing about it? I even put a post on Facebook the other day because it aggravates me when I get tagged by some rando along with 5,000 other rescues to save this. You know, red alert, sos, dog at bark or whatever the case may be, and it's like somebody. And then all the comments somebody go save him, somebody do this, it's terrible that they're going to do that. And it's like what are you doing?

Daniel Ettinger: 35:49

I would say this, unless you have a specific need maybe you're a farmer and you need that border collie with that bloodline that knows how to. Can I swear on your podcast? I won't do it, yeah, and I'm probably not going to get it at the shelter because I don't know what that dog is.

Amy Castro: 36:04

You might, you might get lucky.

Daniel Ettinger: 36:05

You might, you might. But unless it's a specific job, it's a seeing. I mean again, some of these dogs you can get at shelters like a true ADA dog, a CNI dog, you can take them from shelters and work with them, like there's not saying that you can't Police dogs. That one's a little more tricky, right. So, unless we're talking about that big three right there that I mentioned, don't go buy a pet from a pet store. What is wrong with you? People Like, seriously, if you're listening and you like dogs and cats, don't buy something. What are you doing? If you're going to spend five grand on a dog, donate that $4,750 to the shelter that you go and adopt a $250 dog from and you get the same love, no matter what.

Amy Castro: 36:51

Yep.

Daniel Ettinger: 36:53

I'm speaking your love language, Amy, aren't I?

Amy Castro: 36:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah, I've never been against. You know, breeding. I think there are animals that need to be bred for certain purposes, but yeah, your average person does not need to go out and get a purebred dog just to have it or just to have it, and then don't get even started on the doodles and things like that.

Daniel Ettinger: 37:14

A purebred, $7,000 golden doodle, whatever man, when I take my dog to the dog beach I swear there's like 4% of dogs that come from the shelter. It's all purebreds. I'm like okay, whatever.

Amy Castro: 37:28

So that's one piece of it. What else can we be doing on the community level?

Daniel Ettinger: 37:34

Know that no kill doesn't exist. That is a false terminology. If I could sue whoever created that for false advertisement, I would, because ultimately it does not exist. That terminology is a deceitful and misleading term, so don't get sucked into that. I would more likely worry about what are the conditions like inside the shelter. Do they do enrichment for the dogs? Are they offering any type of services in the community?

Daniel Ettinger: 38:05

When you adopt your dog, are you getting that free veterinarian exam from one of your local veterinarians that has partnered with the shelter? Those things are really important. Donate, donate to your shelters really important, right, donate, donate to your shelters, donate old towels or if you, you know, maybe they need certain things for enrichment, like they need to set a brand new bunch of Kongs that they're going to fill and freeze so the dogs have something to do when everyone leaves for the night, or you know little things like that. I think that's really important. Ask, ask what you can do in your shelter. Maybe you can become a volunteer or you can be a foster. One of the coolest things I think in the foster world is the fospists. Can I say that word, the fospists?

Amy Castro: 38:47

Yeah.

Daniel Ettinger: 38:47

It's a hospice. Foster a foster hospice where you take an elderly dog and it gets to live the next six months to maybe a year in your care instead of just inside the shelter. Little things like that. You make space for another dog that's going to come in and hopefully gets adopted. Find ways to promote adoption events. One of the best forms of advertisements to this day is word of mouth, whether it's on your social media platform or you're having a turkey sandwich with Jan at the mini mart. I don't know. It sounds like a thing that y'all would do in Texas. Oh no, it'd be Bucky's. Y'all would be at Bucky's filling up your tanks.

Amy Castro: 39:30

I'm always hanging out at Bucky's eating turkey sandwiches. It might be someplace else but I don't know about that. But yeah.

Amy Castro: 39:36

I get it. Yeah, so we're having a sandwich with Jan somewhere at the Gordon Street Tavern in Alvin and you're talking about hey, do you ever go help that shelter that needs it? Down there, Right of the puzzle, the spay and neuter clinics, the access to health care, the fostering, the volunteering all of those feed into the solution. So you can blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and run your mouth on social media saying why everybody else should be doing something. If you're not doing any of those, if you're not involved in any of that, if you're not advocating or promoting or sharing those posts about that, then shut up.

Amy Castro: 40:16

Don't complain when animals are being euthanized or when I say, no, that I'm not taking your pet into the shelter. It's gonna take a lot of people to be part of the solution, for it to ever actually solve anything, Because it's like you said we're not gonna adopt our way out of it. It's lots of pieces to the puzzle and it's all the things that get done before an animal sets foot into a shelter or a rescue, whatever the case may be. I know I do have rescue people that are listening and a lot of them are still living under that umbrella of no-kill and just kind of focusing on all the things that we said were the downside of no-kill. They need to be doing differently or changing.

Daniel Ettinger: 40:56

There will be a fact sheet coming out really soon, and one of the things that has been asked quite often over the last few weeks was is smart also an option for rescues? And I think I'm going to rebrand the Facebook page to say smart shelters slash rescues, because it is You're still doing the same stuff that we're doing. It's just, uh, you know, the smart animal shelter is just a opportunity, because you don't really hear like, is it a no kill rescue? Most people already assume that rescues don't you know? That's just not what they do.

Amy Castro: 41:32

I will say, though, that there are a lot of people and maybe it's just here in Texas that when they're working their way down a list, they look up whatever they look up animal shelter and when you're loading yourself on on Google, like it asks you to categorize yourself and they're not even thinking about what they're calling. So I have been asked many times are you no-kill? And I'm like what the hell? What do you think I'm doing rescue for? What the hell? What do you think I'm doing rescue for? But the reality is.

Daniel Ettinger: 42:05

I'm not really no-kill, because if you're turning in something that's got this, this or this, I'm going to euthanize it.

Amy Castro: 42:10

There's a practicality to it all, right, yeah. So let's just kind of lump the shelters and the rescues together.

Daniel Ettinger: 42:18

From the standpoint of the philosophies and actions, like what needs to change? The standpoint of the philosophies and actions, like what needs to change Correct. I think that what needs to change is we need to stop making it personal, remove the ego and just find ways to help people, help animals, be creative, be inclusive, understand that decisions are sometimes made that may not include you, and that's okay. We can have other conversations. But if we can be transparent in most aspects, I think the community will embrace that, even if it's not something that they agree with, give them an opportunity to be heard. Let's have a conversation and from there we come up with, you know, with different ways to just operate and learn how we can work together in totality, like this animal sheltering and rescuing. Do you know how old it is in the United States? Do you want to take a guess?

Amy Castro: 43:07

I don't know, I'm trying to remember. I saw that documentary on the guy that was the first, the guy that started the Humane Society or something. Was it the 1800s?

Daniel Ettinger: 43:18

Henry Berg. Henry Berg is the founder of the ASPCA. He started animal welfare in this country in 1864. And the first animal shelter is still active today under the same name, known as the Woman's Animal Center. That's correct, the Woman's Animal Center. It was started by none other than Caroline Earl White. Caroline Earl White wanted to be part of the Pennsylvania Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, but you know what they told her back in the 1800s?

Amy Castro: 43:49

You're a girl, you can't, that's correct.

Daniel Ettinger: 43:52

You know what she said. She said F you and you're a woman. I'm going to take 30 women. She took 30 women and they started their own damn organization and it is the oldest animal shelter in this country, first ever operating and still in existence to this day, just outside of Philadelphia, pennsylvania, and that is in 18, shoot, I don't know 1864.

Amy Castro: 44:17

We can Google it. 74.

Daniel Ettinger: 44:19

It's a long-ass time ago, but it's not that my point, though. It's not that long ago.

Amy Castro: 44:24

We're still figuring all this stuff out, yeah.

Daniel Ettinger: 44:27

We're still figuring it out. We've gone from and I hate to say this, it's very barbaric, but back in the 1800s they would take dogs after 24 hours of not being claimed, put them in iron cages and dunk them in the East River, like that was horrible, like that is killing. And now you know we've come a long way. We've come a long way and there's a long way to go and I think we'll get there.

Amy Castro: 44:51

There is a long way to go.

Daniel Ettinger: 44:52

We just have to work together. We have to have that community.

Amy Castro: 44:55

Yeah, and together we have to have that community. Yeah, and I think that transparency piece is a big piece of it. I mean one of the things in the rescue. If you don't want to know, I won't go out of my way to tell you, but if you ask me a question, I'm going to tell you the truth and I don't really care if you don't like it and I don't care if you go out and you put a bad review or a comment on social media, because I can sleep at night with the decisions that I've made.

Amy Castro: 45:15

And I think that's one of the things that I kind of struggle with.

Amy Castro: 45:17

That, from the standpoint of the shelters, at least as of the ones that I have worked with as of recently and the one that I worked at for basically for 10 years is that I could see why they didn't want to be transparent about it, because what they were doing was wrong in many instances.

Amy Castro: 45:33

But when you get to the point where you are finding that balance between public safety, like you said you know, balancing out euthanasia from the standpoint of behavioral or medical and doing the right thing there for the animal and for society, and doing everything, you can getting up off your ass and doing everything that you can to get animals adopted out the door that you take in.

Amy Castro: 45:57

If you're doing all of that right and your quote-unquote numbers suck, then too bad, and I would say stand by that, put it out there and anybody that wants to complain. You can justify what you're doing and if you've got a better solution, let's communicate about a better solution. But if you don't have an answer for me, then I'm going to do what I think is the right thing for this animal and for the humans involved and that's the way it's going to be. But I don't know that for a lot of shelters that they're there yet I think some are I can think of a couple at least in our area that I interact with personally that I think they should be completely proud of what they do, because you know they're doing what they can do in the situation that they find themselves in.

Daniel Ettinger: 46:45

But then there's others that I think could be doing a lot better. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, and we're here to support that. Like that's our goal is to really help. Again, like I'll say it as long as I can say it help people, help animals.

Amy Castro: 46:56

I'll say it as long as I can say it help people, help animals, yeah, so for somebody that's listening to this, how can they learn more about SMART and how can they get involved? Like I know, it's geared specifically towards the sheltering community for the most part, but, you know, is there somewhere where people could donate or get involved or share information, like what do you want people to do to help grow this movement?

Daniel Ettinger: 47:18

Well, I think we're still in the infancy stages. So you're looking at this and you're like, you know this is good, but it would be better if we did this. Shoot me an email. It's danielkeepithumanecom. You can go to keepithumanecom too. Forward slash smart and it'll have some information there.

Daniel Ettinger: 47:35

And I'm really looking for people that have the bandwidth to do more. Like I can only do so much, but that is not the ethos of smart. The ethos of smart is truly a community, and so it takes that community effort. And so if people have the desire to want to help more, create like if there's a nonprofit Spain neuter fund that we can donate to and they want to work with SMART, like let's why reinvent the wheel, like let's just see if they're willing to work with us. But I'll, you know, I need, I need help with that type of stuff. I'm hoping to do a town hall here in the next few months to just have a discussion with like-minded individuals and kind of. Again, I don't want to make decisions in a vacuum, I want this to be our thing, and so, however, I can help at least get us to that point. That's what I want to do. And then people that want to join in and do more. I'm here for that.

Amy Castro: 48:30

Okay, so tell us about the podcast.

Daniel Ettinger: 48:34

Yeah, so the podcast. Like you, I was listening to your episode about your name change.

Amy Castro: 48:41

Oh, evolution.

Daniel Ettinger: 48:44

We've had three name changes in our existence of a podcast. So we started in 2019 as the Humane Roundup. I had this idea to change the name to the Animal Control Report in 2021, I think. And then this year, the start of this year, we landed on Keep it Humane as the title because we were just doing so much more than just animal control at that point and Keep it Humane kind of started organically back with the Humane Roundup. I used to just say keeping it humane and that kind of turned into a tagline. And so here we are, the evolution of it, almost six years now, and we talk about everything in our industry. So if you're like a pet owner and you're listening and you're like huh, I wonder what animal control does? There's episodes for that, like how to get into animal control. Or, if you like true crime, we have episodes that are true crime centric when it comes to animal crimes.

Daniel Ettinger: 49:41

We have experts on that, have authors or work for large organizations all different things but it's related to the industry, with the hope of getting people to understand our profession more, so they don't see us as the dog pound and the dog catcher. That was the whole point. And one thing I want to mention too, is if you're listening and you've had interactions with a shelter or animal control and you want to come on to our podcast and discuss that, we are also a forum for that as well.

Amy Castro: 50:12

That's good. I think it's very niche, however you like to say that. But that's the beauty of a podcast, I think, is that if somebody is a lay person and they're not in the industry, they can certainly go through and pull out things. That would be something that they could use, something that would help educate them without necessarily feeling like they have to listen to every single episode. It's the same with ours. I love that people will go and pick around for certain things that they need.

Daniel Ettinger: 50:37

We're here for it.

Amy Castro: 50:38

Yeah, so is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you wanted to talk about?

Daniel Ettinger: 50:42

No, I mean, I think at the end of the day, we just have to continue to work with each other Like this is Henry Berg, who started the ASPCA back in 18, I want to say it was 1864.

Amy Castro: 50:53

Now, I feel like.

Daniel Ettinger: 50:54

I'm getting my dates messed up and I'm going to be embarrassed because I love Henry Berg. He didn't do it by himself. He had a prominent lawyer in New York City, elbridge Gary, that helped him get some of those things passed. He worked with judges and police officers. And then you had George Thorndike Angel, who was up in Massachusetts at the time working with Henry Berg from a distance, and then you had Caroline Earl White in Philadelphia. Like they were all kind of doing the same thing, but they were. They embraced it Like there wasn't hate like there is today, and that just blows me away. I don't know if that's just our culture as a country. We're just like we hate. So it's easier to hate than relate. Make that a shirt.

Amy Castro: 51:34

There you go.

Daniel Ettinger: 51:38

Maybe I'll flip it, though, and say it's better to relate than hate.

Amy Castro: 51:41

You better copyright that fast, I just did.

Daniel Ettinger: 51:43

We just put it on a podcast. Publish this thing.

Amy Castro: 51:49

There you go. It's public, that's right Publish.

Daniel Ettinger: 51:50

You don't even need to put it on a sticky note and put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself.

Amy Castro: 51:52

Nah, it's here, it's on Spotify. I think that's a lesson to be learned for rescue groups too. It's so siloed, and so us against them, and it's like if we would just pool our resources and our energy. My God, you know what we'd accomplish.

Daniel Ettinger: 52:05

Absolutely no-transcript.

Amy Castro: 52:18

Something going there.

Daniel Ettinger: 52:20

My pleasure, thank you.

Amy Castro: 52:22

If today's episode challenged the way you think about rescue and sheltering, good, it's time we all stop chasing numbers and start asking better questions. Learn more about the SMART approach at keepithumanecom forward slash smart. And don't forget to check with your local shelter, not just for a new pet, but to ask how they're really operating. If we want better outcomes for animals, it starts with transparency, community and maybe a little less ego. See you next time. Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs. Be sure to visit our website at muddypawsandhairballscom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss a show. And hey, if you like this show text someone right now and say I've got a podcast recommendation. You need to check the show out and tell them to listen and let you know what they think. Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode and if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.