Dissecting Horror
Dissecting Horror
Dissecting Trick 'r Treat | Spoiler-free Halloween Special
Hello, horrorphiles. In this Halloween special we dissect the 2007 movie, Trick 'r Treat written and directed by Michael Doherty and staring Brian Cox, Anna Paquin and Dylan Baker.
“Five interwoven stories that occur on Halloween: an everyday high school principal has a secret life as a serial killer; a college virgin might have just met the guy for her; a group of teenagers pull a mean prank; a woman who loathes the night has to contend with her holiday-obsessed husband; and a mean old man meets his match with a demonic, supernatural trick-or-treater.” – according to IMDB.
This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.
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Photo credit: Slevin Mors
Hello, Horror files. You're listening to Dissecting Horror, Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. I’m writer and performer, Kelsey Zukowski In this Halloween episode, we'll examine the 2008 favorite, Trick ‘r Treat. And in honor of our podcast’s, one year anniversary, we'll pepper in Halloween questions to each other throughout. this dissection will be spoiler free. We are the horror whisperers, your champions of horror and keepers of the Fearscape on this podcast of frightsome delights, if you will. I will. And we hope you will subscribe for more. Won’t you? The rules of Halloween.
Rule one:Never blow out a jack o lantern. Rule two” Always pass out treats.
Rule three:Always wear a costume.
Rule four:Always check your candy. Five interwoven stories that occur on Halloween and every day. high school principal has a secret life as a serial killer. A college virgin might have just met the guy for her. A group of teenagers pull a mean prank. A woman who loathes the night has to contend with her holiday obsessed husband and a mean old man meets his match with a demonic, supernatural trick. Or treat her, according to IMDB. for a film that comes in at an hour and 22 minutes, that's a lot of ground to cover. But with my rather short attention span, this balance of complexity and brevity held my concentration perfectly. It is very well paced with no parts dragging. I will always advocate for quality over quantity, especially in film. An hour and 22 minutes of a solid movie experience to me is far preferable over enduring 3 hours of something merely decent, regardless of how much spectacle it might offer. Filmed in Vancouver, British Columbia. This film stars Brian Cox, Anna Paquin. Paquin I feel like I'm saying that wrong, and Dylan Baker, among others in this extensive and quality ensemble cast. produced by Bryan Singer. This film was written and directed by Michael Doherty. who later went on to direct Krampus in 2015, which we reviewed in our Christmas episode along with Godzilla King of the Monsters in 2019. Trick or Treat as a deliciously fun, witty and macabre holiday horror film focusing on the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween. In this film, those that face bloody, brutal ends suffer a hefty price for not honoring the sanctity of this holiday mainly its traditions, rules and truths. Spirit. While there are many monsters in this film, both human and supernatural, the most iconic and only true constant in all five storylines is the oddly adorable, creepy and merciless Sam in homage to the holiday itself Samhain, While it bearse he seems to be a child trick or treating, the true nature of Sam is something far more ethereal and malicious, representing Halloween itself, much like a Krampus figure defending Halloween and making sure those who do not honor or follow the rules of the holiday are severely punished. Speaking of Krampus, Steve, when we discuss filmmaker Michael Dougherty's sophomore holiday horror film, following this one in our Christmas special, Krampus you mentioned that felt less polish in comparison to this film. Where did you notice that superior direction in execution? why do you think this film works so well? Yeah, I would say that since this which was his direct Boreal debut in 2007, he has failed to match the quality and spirit of that first one. there's a common belief that your first movie or your first screenplay or your first anything automatically going to be shitty. And that is commonly true. However, the first script I ever wrote remains my favorite, and I have produced some excellent works since, if I may say so myself. But there can be a situation where when one starts off, one has the most enthusiasm and least recognition or understanding of what one's limitations are supposed to be. One is then set free to create with what might be called an ignorance of what should be restraining us. I found that the more rules I learned thereafter. So now I'm turning this about, a question about me. But the more I learned, the more confined and constrained my writing became until I eventually found a balance. But But part of me just finds it a bit insulting, presumptuous and daunting to hear that you must spend so many years or decades toiling before one's work can be finally deemed worthy. Perhaps this was the case with trick or treat but there was such a freshness to this one, it seemed more formulaic after this. I loved how This had a lack of structure. It seemed to ignore all that and just throw a bunch of stories in and let that story's telling dictate where those other stories should go. This organically intertwined in a way that just felt so entertaining and engrossing and everything else you did after just felt very studio esque and even bland Yeah, I think there's also, you can tell this was a project that different versions and aspects to it were kind of a part of his creative motivations and mind for a long time. It was actually the first thing that really introduced Sam as a character and kind of spawned the rest of the film was 1996 short film that he wrote called Seasons Greetings, and then from there he's stated that the film that we saw Trick or Treat, had about 18 variations of the script, which, you know, is not crazy for, you know, necessarily a script writer. And then you get other people to look at it, okay, what if you tweak this? What if you try this? Especially as this is became a cult favorite. So there was it's a, you know, higher scale independent film, I guess you could call it. But there was probably a lot that he had to do working with the distributor is in everything to make it happen. So it is amazing that it remains not that fresh and and tight and that the final product didn't you know, who knows what these other variations were, but the final product feels like what it should be. So yeah, it is kind of cool about that passion and just strong direction and everything was able to come together for this. But also I doubt he probably put as much time and passion. Definitely not the years into Krampus, which was probably, you know, he probably had an idea of like, what if we did something like that? But it was like, you know, Evil Christmas aspect. And I know for that film you said he was inspired by things that he grew up with, like gremlins. So there is probably, you know, some inklings of ideas in his mind, but he might just not have put, you know, the care in and time to really realizing it in a way. And yeah, you can definitely have a lot of filmmakers do grow and learn as they go on and that's that's great Anyone should do that in any and any craft. So hopefully me, I would like to see him turn it around and, you know, puts that that level of care and creativity and just genuine spark like this really just captures like the Halloween spirit in so many ways. So whatever subject you're tackling, you, you know, you always want that to feel genuine and just carry that energy that you're trying to explore. So, yeah, well, we'll see. But I think some of it is just like the time. And if that's that your, your one passion project that you're just so motivated on and there's probably so many obstacles you have to go through and you push through and make it happen versus a project they're like, Hey, we want you to do something like this. But like with, you know, this other concept can do it. You probably, you know, ideally you give it your all and make everything as great as as you can with with that same enthusiasm. But I think that might have been a little bit of the difference there. I think that's key because the other film that he directed passed that was Godzilla King of the Monsters, and as a writer, he has been, I would say, more prolific, having penned that cheesy to say he penned many a screenplay. I hear it. Anyways, he penned in some participating capacity. X-Men Apocalypse Ex two, Godzilla versus Kong and Superman Returns and all those are preexisting franchises. And I think it is significant that Trick or Treat was the one that was just him, just his working on what he liked. And when you attach somebody to something where there's probably another half dozen writers and so forth and a bunch of other people in a bigger studio capacity, it's just going to be more stifling. And I think that's what we're seeing here. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Can I ask you a question now? I'll start with my least creative question. What films do you watch every year on or around Halloween? Kels Usually the absolute must go tos are hocus pocus and nightmare before Christmas because that's just been Halloween since I was four. So that's just those are films I just I have to watch some even if I'm working that day or I have other things going on at some point those films need to happen. You And then there's Halloween. You know, John Carpenter's Halloween is definitely one. I always try to at least watch the original sometime in the season. Definitely. There was a lot of times, especially like in teenage years, when you have less going on, where I would, you know, usually do a full marathon of all the Halloween franchise films, Trick or Treat is why I usually like to throw in to the mix. And now I've for this podcast, I've watched it twice already this year, so I'm caught up on that one. I think those are the main go tos like that. I that I really need to watch. And then there's, there's a lot I really just try to watch as many throughout the season, especially in October, just as many like almost nothing but horror content is very rare. If I watch anything outside of that genre, or at least, you know, the spooky lights, I guess family friendly horror, as I like to call it. I like to watch a lot of those because a lot of them are just like embracing that mixture of suspense and scary, but also just kind of marvel and whimsical and fun nature of the holidays and they just bring me happy. So to watch. A Nightmare before Christmas at Christmas, too. Absolutely. Okay. Do you feel it lends itself to one holiday more than the other? It is 100% both, and I will fight that to my death. There is yeah, a lot of a lot of people who think it's more one than the other, which I can get. But even Tim Burton has that. It's meant to be both, which it is. It's the melding of, of two worlds. And really more than anything, to someone who who knows one thing and embraces and that's his life. But then just the wonder about, well, what else is there? And then just kind of the marvel of seeing something new from an outsider or a perspective. that movie, despite popular belief, was not directed by Tim Burton, but by somebody else. But it's still considered a Tim Burton film. I don't remember who wrote the original story. It was like a a short story off and had a lot of the like the concept was his. And now I'm blanking on the person who did you I think, Hey Harry, I am going to do something I rarely ever do actually utilize the laptop right in front of me. and I've seen other films of his so I'm going to be like, yes, obviously a nightmare on Elm Street, but another favorite. I just really love the nightmares. All right. Henry Selick, very go. What else did he do? Is he still alive? Wow. Doesn't you Yes. Yes. he's known for Caroline James and the Giant Peach. I love that. Wendell and Wild. that was really good. It was last year. Okay, excursion complete. let's go to ask you the same thing. So now you're turning me Halloween must watch films or ones you like to fit in during this season. Trick or treat has become one of them in the last five years or so. if nothing else, The Legend of Hell House must be watched on specifically Halloween itself in the evening. I have no life, so I'm not going to be anywhere doing anything with other human beings. So where I am. And beyond that, I think I try to mix up anything. you know, I'll say The Innkeepers has that vibe that I like the most for Halloween and maybe a Hammer horror film, like one of the Christopher Lee Dracula's and the original Dracula, the Bela Lugosi, and maybe a Frankenstein in there. One of the Universal's several, maybe even all of them. And while my list keeps getting bigger every time, I know the movie marathon, But I am surprised there aren't more movies specifically about Halloween. And it's not just ones, incidentally, taking place on Halloween as a sort of side detail for ambiance. Even the John Carpenter classic Halloween does not actually have much to do with the holiday at all. There is a solid discussion in trick or Treat of Sam Haynes origins and how it used to be celebrated, such as human sacrifices, the wall between the living and the dead being thinnest and baked goods and crops being left out for the dead. And later, things like candy and decorations being used as a defense mechanism to what it has become most just focusing on tricks and treats and not the dark roots and honoring the dead and macabre. We wanted this episode to be Halloween centric and something that captured the essence of Halloween itself. You can't get much more spot on than this film where the spirit of the day is honored and defended by a fleshy, demonic pumpkin like entity that bridges childlike innocence and a brutal reckoning, while we can agree this is a great Halloween film, it did bring up some questions as to why there are so few strong Halloween horror films, particularly those that take place on Halloween. of course, John Carpenter's classic Halloween is a worthy Halloween watch and my personal gateway drug into horror, as I like to call it. It does have a nostalgic place in my heart that makes it fun to watch every year. Still, as you mentioned, it does have less to do with Halloween itself and more to do with Michael Myers simply being evil incarnate and finishing the job he set out to do by eliminating his family and all that stand in his path. That just so happens to occur on Halloween because they have the bright idea to let him out of his cell every Halloween eve. Because why not? But horror lovers and those who create horror films have a deep rooted love and appreciation for Halloween itself. Shouldn't we have ample, chilling, powerful, celebratory Halloween horror films? There are a handful, but many are flawed or happened to occur on October 31st and touch on the holiday a bit, but don't really focus on the delight and terror, the masquerading and the macabre that Halloween is deeply rooted in. as we seem to agree that there is a lack of really quality Halloween horror films, what more would you personally like to see in the holiday lore on films that might come out in the future? That would require me having a deep knowledge of what Halloween law is, which I think is lacking. Maybe that's the answer of more films that go into the war something that educates it is a point of curiosity. It's based on all Hallows Eve. I think it's morphed into just whatever Americanized holiday it has become to the point where much of the original meaning is lost. We even have people who dress up as Disney princesses and superheroes, things that have nothing to do with the reasons why people were dressing up, which I can't even remember what that was about, either. But yeah, I don't know. I think it was like like Krampus. When we did that one, I felt like I learned a lot about what Krampus was, but I don't think that movie actually explained anything about the meanings of Krampus. It just introduced the character and left us to research and figure out. But at least it sparked an interest in it and introduced us to this character. And I suppose that's another one where, say, is it a Christmas movie or is it a Halloween? But it's just more decidedly Christmas. Yeah, Christmas definitely just with the darker roots and and origins and I mean Krampus and similar, you know, as we talked about in that episode, there are similar difference like there was a hum a Christmas which in some especially it's more prevalent in European countries. Just a bigger part of their lore of the holiday. And not all of them were necessarily evil like they had some dark roots there. But yeah, I think it was just there's just different cultures that those type of creatures with a little bit, you know, it's a little bit there even with in America and Santa Claus, I like you better be good or else, you know, I guess the threat is cold versus being, you know, whipped and kidnaped and potentially trapped in like a whole dimension. So, you know, they go a little harder Well, in the same way that Krampus has that early European influence forming that later tradition, Halloween, to me, feels very similar. I don't know. It could be like one's from Finland and the other is from Ireland or something. I don't know the actual roots and it might be insulting to consider that it's all kind of the same to me melded in this overall European origin story. But I don't know. It's not like I, I enjoy Halloween for anything but what Halloween means to me now in the movies and the trick or treating and all the the candy and whatnot. So I don't know how interested I even am in the origins outside of a morbid curiosity and whether or not that would make for content that would satisfy me more than a slasher film or a haunted house movie. Well, do you think you would ever take a stab at creating one either, as in a film or prose form? I, I would in fact, I've written one or two, but I'm guilty of what I was just talking about in setting that story on Halloween. And there is something there that necessitates it being on that day because trick or treaters are involved and whatnot. But I think the thing that I really enjoyed about trick or treat is how it embodies everything I love about my favorite holiday. It's fun, scary, creative, twisted and irreverent. Even Candy is heavily featured along with the sexy side of Halloween. And it ticked all those boxes really well. And it inspires me to want to do something like that, too. Seeing the potential, I think I came up with an idea for a short story about trick or treaters or something, but there are horrific things that are around the holiday like, you know, poison candy and things like the urban legends about razor blades and things like that, which may or may not be true based on what I've I mean, it's something that struck terror in the in the hearts of parents everywhere. But I saw a documentary on YouTube about, like, that's never happened or it's never been proven that ever, ever happened. So it adds to the scariness of it all, but in a way that's probably not as healthy or enjoyable as the rest of the scares associated with Halloween. one thing that trick or treat really does well, I notice that sort of representing Halloween through the ages and how it changes from when you're a kid to as you grow older. And it does a really good job of representing that. From the ancient origins to a very vintage Halloween presence to the modern Sam's costume, the burlap sack button eyes and a homemade look seemingly childlike only to reveal his fleshy jack-o'-lantern demonic interior really showcases that creepiness and simplicity of vintage Halloween with an innocence and something more sinister. Likewise, most of the adults shown have fairly innocence and even childlike needs flirtatious costumes, bridging vintage and modern day, showing a tamer yet sexualized version of dressing up and still peeling back the layers to find the predator can still become prey. Additionally, it focuses on all ages that experience Halloween and how they do it from a childlike wonder proved to be more sinister to an older child who is too cool for Halloween's rules. But to reap all the rewards, stealing Halloween candy and wearing a shirt that simply says, This is my costume. Two teenagers using untimely tragic mass deaths of handicapped youth for a scare to another outsider to the 20 year olds ready to have a Halloween party and primal awakening to never forget two parents honoring the traditions and proving to be sinister and out of their league when faced with real evil and the older plagued recluse haunted by what happened on many Halloweens ago and forced to pay the ultimate price, it really covers what Halloween looks like through many different eyes. This was my takeaway from the film before we set out for the podcast episode and looking a little deeper, Dougherty confirmed this was the goal in tackling Halloween through all stages, even in every version of the 18 different variations of this story, that this was always a key aspect. He wanted to focus on. To quote Michael Dougherty, the first story with Dylan Baker and his son is about how you're introduced to the holiday. The second one with the kids is you and your friends roaming around without parents for the first time. This one with Anna Paquin and her friends. Is Halloween in your twenties when it's about sex? The final story with Brian Cox is Halloween. In your twilight years, it's the Scrooge of Halloween, Time for another question. All right. What is your earliest memory of Halloween? Really? Hocus pocus is the first thing I could think of. Like I definitely would trick or treating, but I couldn't. I couldn't tell you what I was that year or don't remember the candy or any spectacle specifically. I remember I got 1993. It came out when I was four, and I just remember watching that and being marveled. And it might have been the same the same year Nightmare before Christmas came out. So, yeah, I just remember kind of being taken by those films and the sort of wickedness and spookiness combined with a sort of whimsical wonder, As sacrilegious as it may be for me to say, I've never seen Hocus Pocus. Is it actually a Halloween based? Is it just more of a scary film for. yeah, it's pretty Halloween based. It's probably the biggest focus is witches. And which is that were you know, around the Salem witch trial era. But of course these were actually real witches who were killing kids and sucking the life out of them. And they come back basically by, you know, something dumb that one of the the characters does, thinking that it's just a bunch of hocus pocus trying to impress the girl and just having fun and not taking it seriously. And then they have these witches hunting them for the rest of the movie and they have to find a way to defeat them. in a lighthearted way. I take it. It's a comedy. it's a it's just yeah, I mean, it's fun, I think. I think the what? It's almost a film that I appreciated more as I grew. I grew up actually, because there's some really smart, witty writing that I think helps more and you understand more the older that you get. But like, like some of the comedy even just comes from there in the, you know, it's 1993, but for them, modern day, for the first time being, I think it was around 300 years that they're they were they were asleep for basically and just like marveling on on how the they view things like they think black concrete is a river of death And I think firefighters come in are witch hunters. And for a while they think all the trick or treaters are really like demonic spirits. And there's, you know, someone in a devil costume who they think is their actual master, the actual devil. And just as they slowly start to understand, this is a trick. And, you know, so the the protagonist, the kids kind of use a lot of that to their advantage to all they do is have to trick them into thinking, you know, it's this is a real threat when half the time it's an illusion and they're not used to these illusions. So most of the comedy, I think, is just that sort of fish out of water, different time sort of comedy. I think I think I would enjoy that. I should check that out. It's pretty fun. I do agree that pacing and format is one of the things that just works really great about it. I think especially as a horror anthology, it really stands strong. It has this horror loving, homage, fun spirit to it that just really makes it shine above nearly all others due to the pacing and just seamless melding of the shorts coming together while they all stand strong as their own entities and journeys throughout one hellacious Halloween night, This film has layers and an unconventional structure. Watching it for the first time, you perceive events and characters in a certain way. The second time you see people and events in a completely different way. not all is as it seems In subsequent viewings. but even on the first time through. One picks up how interwoven everything is as characters brush elbows with other storylines, each setting up and paying each other off satisfyingly. And trick or treat. Few people are as they seem. We all wear our own mass on Halloween nights in a spooky, macabre, celebratory glory, making the unsuspecting the most deadly. from the Father-Son segment to the Halloween party in the woods to the teens revisiting the site of Halloween tragedy, seeming to honor the dead, the film does a great job of showcasing an unlikely villain hiding in plain sight, building the suspense and dread seemingly leading to imminent slaughter of the unsuspecting and innocent, even if at times bothersome and annoying and misdirecting you only leading you to a different type of morbid embracing of the holiday traditions and a wonderfully gruesome and primal way, often even turning cruel predator into prey, making all pay a hefty price unless they truly honor the rules and traditions. Even for those that seem to honor one aspect can be given a cruel abandonment in taste of their own medicine. If their character and intent isn't pure. With a $12 million budget. This Halloween gem never saw a life in theaters. Shockingly, originally slated for an October 5th 27 theatrical release. It was announced in September of that year that the film had been pushed back after numerous festival screenings. It was eventually released on home video in 2009 for the days of streaming. This to me is criminal and surely must have been heartbreaking for all those involved, considering its production quality and rare story caliber in this horror landscape. I cannot fathom why a theatrical release was averted. It seemed like it was definitely something. Maybe the studio or, you know, distributors didn't like didn't really fully believe in, you know, enough to let him make the film. But I don't think it was anticipated how well it would have done. And there are, you know, fairly known, respected actors in it, too. So it was not like it was a total unknown names all around. But yeah, definitely. It's a shame that it didn't get that initial theater release, but it's definitely become a cult favorite. And at horror conventions, you still see, well, kids dressed up as Sam and merchandise everywhere. It's definitely become connected and almost a symbol. Halloween, which was the original intent, but probably not what they ever dreamed would actually happen on the the scale that it has. I think it slipped under most people's radars at first, but is ever further finding its rightful place in horror fans. Fans is fans hearts with each passing Halloween. Do you have any more questions to ask me? yeah. Halloween is really the time of the year for a horror fan when the misfits and lovers of the macabre monsters and weird fiction are in full power, so to speak. The season is a celebration of the things we love and honor year round, the things that normally might be looked down upon or questioned by those who haven't caught the horror bug like we have. It's just one more of an ample excuse to dive more fully into all of this wicked and wonderful while we are in Southern California and it is quite hot today so we don't get the full effects of that refreshing and exhilarating, crisp chill in the air and the gorgeous fall foliage. There is something about this season that ignites an excitement and in the horror and Halloween lover unlike any other time of the year whether it's revisiting horror film favorites, discovering new ones, or many of the season's traditions from visiting pumpkin patches to haunted houses erected to facilitate in crafting a safe space for people to experience eerie and heart pumping, suspense, excitement and marble. The Halloween season gives us ample opportunities to celebrate and find our own spooky. Do you have any favorite traditions and has your traditions changed from childhood to adult? They're definitely different. They're less family oriented from when I was a kid, my mom used to construct many of my costumes when I was young, and did you get to choose or She's just like this what you're being? know, I definitely chose. Instead of just buying the Darth Vader costume, she would construct the helmet out of a milk gallon what is it, a milk jug? And then spray painted everything black. She's really new crafts, I think was like she's dead. She's actually still with us. But as far as what stands out now is I find, especially in the last few years, how most people, they gained weight Thanksgiving or Christmas. But for me, it's it's around Halloween. the eating of as much candy as I possibly can is very much a part of the feeling, the vibe, which I feel like I have permission to do around this season. So it has its ups and downs, of course, but that's one thing. And when you talk about the weather here, feeling of Halloween doesn't really happen until like three days before Halloween itself, seasonally speaking. And so I feel there's an urgency to cram in as much Halloween related movie watching and discussion and just whatever I want to do that's Halloween related. Within that few days before Halloween and then it's over. And then I feel like I have to wait another year to experience it again. But I'm trying to extend in my mind the idea that you can enjoy the horror season throughout all of winter so that it's it's it's not so fleeting. See, I just started Halloween convention and late July but that's the other way you can extend it for me especially like November 1st. I'm like it's like I guess some people have like seasonal depression. That would probably be when I'm at most risk of that. I just it's like difficult for me to accept that Halloween's over. So I usually just continue the movie watching and things I need like a slow, a slow exit out of it. So I'm probably still watching things like Corpse Bride or, you know, things that kind of like slowly ease me out of it And plus my birthdays also too, weeks after Halloween. And I usually just use it as an excuse to do something else like Halloween related. So I'm I'm a little stubborn and moving on. Do you think it's perfectly okay for anyone to display Christmas products prior to October 31st? All right. I personally don't like it, but I also try not to be a hypocrite because, again, I go to a Halloween convention every summer. So doesn't really work out great until because also, even even just going out workplace, everything is very Christmasy, if people wait at least until after Thanksgiving. Okay. Really until December for me, really me personally, when I will be watching Christmas movies or more like getting into the Spirit is like Christmas Eve, maybe know but I also I'm also like a big believer in if something makes someone else happy and isn't hurting you. Like if someone puts on Christmas music in their car and June and that makes them happy. Well, if I don't, if I'm not there and I don't have to listen to it, then okay, great. Like that makes you happy. Awesome. Make Christmas cookies, celebrate, put on a Christmas movie if that works for you. But I just I personally don't like it. But also you got to let people have their happy, which is better. Halloween or Valentine's Day? Halloween, obviously it's the best day of the year. correct answer, nothing is more disturbing to me than February 14th. Where the fuck the day is? usually try to do something a little spooky, like I believe it might have been the original Dracula film that was actually released on February 14th. there was one year where we just had like a watch. The film had like a Dracula celebration. Like, that's more what I would do on Valentine's Day. I'm Halloween, always. yeah, I like the idea of a second Halloween and it should land on that day that would that would definitely redeem the ickiness of that date. Trick or treat. Currently holds a respectable 82% critic score and 72% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes in October 2022, Michael Doherty revealed that he was in active development for Trick or Treat two with legendary pictures. Although the film had not yet been officially greenlit, IMDB currently listed as being in development with no other information available. Do you think it will ever happen? Kels I don't see why it couldn't happen. Who knows? The reason why it isn't is maybe he's busy with other projects, but again, this is something he's said he was developing and then seemed ready to go forward for over ten years now. So I mean, there's so much so much love for it and as we said, it is kind of his best film. he seems to want to do it and the fans want him to do it. So is it. Yeah, something something holding it up behind the scenes. Yeah, it does. It's a little it's a little odd. It's taking this long and hasn't and hasn't come out yet. I don't know budgetary limitations even that there's so like there's so much merchandise like that there has to like they have to be making a lot of money just on the merchandise you know I spirit Halloween has a whole trick or treat line you know a lot of different companies do have officially license so yeah it's a little odd. I wonder the real reason behind that, because it doesn't seem like there's any real reason it couldn't well considering how many sequels are churned out on the flimsiest excuses for horror franchises these days, I don't see why something of such quality as this isn't jumped on by studios, aside from the fact that it doesn't hit a more generic formula that they feel more secure with I think Hollywood is just very risk averse and someone who comes along with a very creative IP intellectual property. can feel a little bit unstable for them or uncertain to the point where they'll actually put off something of higher caliber to go with something that seems more predictable. Yeah, that's probably the most likely reason. That may be just because it's it doesn't have your typical story structure that their stories are fully explored and come to a conclusion. But kind of this merging of different many stories to make one bigger story. I mean, that was the format of the first. So I would imagine it might do some things similar with the second. So yeah, and that's, you know, I guess it's the sad reality. Just they once it becomes a Hollywood film, they don't want to take any real risks with that. And really it doesn't seem like it would be much of a risk because there is a pretty healthy fan base and probably most of people who went to see Krampus were because of him as well. So it's like it's kind of been proven again and again that the fan base is there. So hopefully they take a chance on it one day. I mean, I would like to see more of the story in one form or another. I would love a film, but even if they needed to, you know, it has a very comic book style to it, even if they did like a graphic novel showing more of whatever story that they wanted to tell, I'd be down for that Well, an anthology by definition, is a series that presents a different story and a different set of characters in each different episode season or segment. These usually have a different cast in each. With that said, being something of an anthology within itself, with its five intertwining stories, I could totally see this as a successful Netflix series. Kels Would you prefer that? Or a trick or treat sequel? I'd say yeah, like a series. I think anything with even if it's a mini series or one season, there's just more time and more that you can do and explore with characters. So yeah, I would always, I would always say, Yeah, unless there are certain ideas that you're like, there isn't that much to explore or expand on. They're like, Just keep it simple, make it, you know, a 90 minute feature film. There are some things that that is true for. I, I don't see why they couldn't make an effective find interesting in a version of this in TV format in one way or another. Because I mean, there's so many going into different people's stories. As long as you have strong characters and writing and there's more that they could have gone into with like the Law and Roots of Halloween with Sam as a character, there's still a lot where you assume but don't know about him. So I think there's a lot of potential that could be really well done. You brought up Sam earlier, like, of course that relates to Sam, something that I've never I have no idea what you're referencing. that's like with the basically Samhain is Halloween So him So Samhain is just the character in the story, was what the holiday was called. Really? Yeah. But it was You're not condescending, but just like assumption that I would have any idea what Samhain. And it was like I have no I've never heard that in my life. That made me think that people listening to this will probably think or ask the same question. Why is that a person or is that just a word that happens to be Sam himself is a good iconic sort of reference and essence of Halloween itself. being named Sam after Samhain, which is a holiday observed from sunset on October 31st to sunset on November 1st. it a celebration of the origins of Halloween. Samhain was first observed by Celtic Pagans, which marked the Celtic New Year the end of summer and the of the harvest season. It also signaled the beginning of winter, which they associated with death. On this day. the Celtics believed the veil between the living and the was especially thin. This allowed spirits of the dead to visit the living. When first watching this years ago, my expectations were quite low, frankly. Sam, the little character wearing the burlap sack over his head on the poster, shares that similarity with a character in the film The Orphanage, which coincidentally was also completed in 2011, seven. this alone made me scoff. But since then I have come to recognize how radically different these characters and films are. regardless. I was quite taken aback by how fresh, entertaining and thoughtfully made Trick or Treat was. I almost had to come to terms with how far off my initial expectations were and admitting to it being that good. I wish I were made wrong in this way more often. Actually. Yeah, absolutely is definitely a beloved and favorite film of mine. Even going back to it. And I think I don't know if I ever really reviewed, this film other than like, man, this is great because of X, Y, and Z. You know, I never really, like, looked into it as fully and in much depth as I did for this podcast. And it's one that, you know, some films you're like, man, I love that. So it was an amazing, perfect film. And then the more you kind of look into or and dissect it or even some films that you're like, okay, that was pretty good, but it has some flaws. And the more you look into it and really think about it, you're, you realize it's, it's worse, you know, at least on a technical level, that there's things, you know, there were some flaws or plot holes or things that they could have explored better. And this is agreed a refreshing the opposite, that the more I think about it and the more I look into it, the more in depth and connectivity and images and just tightness. It just, it's just a really well-made film. question which Halloween candy is the tastiest? So you had your comment about just loving and eating all the Halloween candy and and I so I probably had obviously a more candy as a kid. I have a lot of health issues and one of them is very low tolerance to sugar. So I really can't eat much candy. And I also have tons of allergies and dairy and gluten and all kinds of things. So I am quite limited. I would say like really for me, like this seasonal thing, I just love pumpkin, pumpkin, anything. I absolutely love. I mean, I'm a big fan of like apple cider, too. That's really great. But I think I'm bigger on Halloween beverages, to be honest. Like, really, pumpkin? Anything but a good, I have a pumpkin oatmeal, coffee. That's delicious. And I love any type of spiced cider, especially with, like, a cinnamon stick. Amazing. For if I had to pick a candy would probably just be like a dark chocolate. Honestly, when I was younger, I loved sour candy, so it would have been all that sour, sugary coated candy that I would not be able to handle now. Well, you turn my lighthearted question into the most depressing. You know, you're not the first person who's asked me this, like, recently. So I'm like, it's hard to say. All okay, you mentioned your big you enjoy the Halloween candy. do you have any favorites? Either candy or other seasonal fall Halloween treats? I enjoy all Halloween candy equally, and I make it a point to eat as much variety in quantity as possible. You have these bags of candy which may have four things in it. I wish they had one with 12 different types of thing. And it's always like a chocolaty based pack or a fruity based pack they always put in the greatest quantity that thing which is the least delicious as filler, like rolls. There's like it's 90% Tootsie Rolls and then a few. Or if you get Tootsie Pops, it's mostly the Tootsie Roll flavor, which is the most uninteresting, uninspired. And you want like the red ones. When I was a kid, occasionally you get like some sort of a popcorn thing, something special, something different, and everybody else just gets like butterscotch or something funky. You'd probably like butterscotch. It sounds like it'd be a your, your cup of tea kind of in tune with Butterbeer, which is one of the most delicious things I've never tried it. It's really only they only have like the official butterbeer at Universal. Okay, so I'm going to ask you another question question Kels, is there anything about Halloween that you feel inclined to get to keep about from inappropriate costumes to practices or snacks Drink anything that is not okay? Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely sensitive to, I guess if there are, you know, like insulting depictions of cultures, like, I can see that like native American, you know, being like a stereotypical character or something like that. I would respect that culture. And if, if they find it to them, I think it really kind of depends on that group of people, because if they don't find it offensive, they're like, Yeah, whatever. Then okay, then it's not an issue. But if it is something where people have spoken out that this is harmful or disrespectful to my culture, it's not your costume. I would respect that. There's enough. Like just fun movie characters. You could be or create something yourself. Like there's literally endless options to not have to go there. for a holiday revolving around fear, death and suffering. Why do you think Halloween is so popular? Even with the smallest of children? I think because there is something very fun about it. Maybe it's. Maybe it's become exploring this spookiness and the suspense and knowing something's around the corner or someone's going to jump out at you or little theatrical sort of coming alive of whether it be demons or ghosts, but like in not in a way where most people think this is really happening or they're in real danger. So in a way, maybe similar to horror films, that it's sort of a safe space to push yourself a little and be on edge and be as more of that exhilaration of maybe knowing something's coming, but not really thinking your life is truly in danger. Just something that is a little unknown and and McJob and is unsettling. But also you kind of have this side of it where it's sort of fun and you're outside of yourself because you can maybe be something that you wouldn't be every other day of the year. So it's kind of a fun little mix and, partially because of certain traditions and decorations and even films that kind of celebrate sort of that fun aspect of it, but still kind of honor the unsettling dread and wickedness that kind of goes along with it. So I think it's just how the holidays has kind of become a melding of those two things. Most people don't. I mean, you never know what might happen, but I think most people aren't like in fear for their lives on Halloween. It's just sort of a fun celebration of the living and the dead and kind of exploring a little bit of the in-between. I guess it does add to the variety of holidays you've got Christmas and the festive ness of all that and Birth of Christ or the rising of Christ on Easter and all these things that are going in positive directions to have one that emphasizes the darkness in a still fun way, I think is kind of generous of society to give us actually, considering how strict so many people are. But it can be expressed in a number of different ways, Yeah. Is there anything else I keep saying health with? I think I'm doing it I've been doing it to annoy you specifically in the hopes that it would trigger you and you just blank each time, Yeah. Go on with the question I have. It's part of my name. and God dammit. All right. Is there anything you dislike about Halloween? It's not every day of the year. It's the only thing I dislike about. I want I literally want to live in Jack Skellington Halloween Town. Even. There's a few, like, fantasy novels, Dark Phase series where not necessarily specifically Halloween, but it's like an eternal fall. And of course it's like supernatural. So there's this like kind of otherworldly quality to it. And just even how everything is described, like, even, like the, the smells and the colors and yeah, I would just eternal fall and eternal Halloween would be amazing. But I guess, you know, you could argue you appreciate it more if not always there That is true. And I have considered transforming like my fantasy is to get a house that I can make into something of a haunted house. Feel so I can be in that environment all the time. But if I were to ever get married or have kids or something, But I have to find somebody was definitely on the same page. And anyway, though, yeah, that's true. But yeah, I definitely would. I see things like in movies or maybe there's a documentary with castles or something. man, I just. I just want to be in that space. That's much of what I like about horror and haunted house films is this feeling of, like, what it would be to be in that space. And I enjoy that sensation, that that feeling that it gives of being cold and old and creaky and all that. But even the original Dracula I watch and I'm like, Wait, what? What's the issue? Think gothic, beautiful castle, probably with a beautiful library as well. You get those vampire endorphins, Like, it sounds like a great deal. Yeah. What's the problem? As I mentioned, trick or treat did begin as a short film called Seasons Greetings. In 1996, after the feature film came out, they were later a few additional shorts. It looks like one was called Father's Day and the other one making friends and thousand 11 and 2012. Did you happen to see any of these versions? I believe there were some of those included on the Blu ray and I watched them, but I have no memory of them. All right. So I only watched the first one or just earlier today. Just see where it all started. It is an animated film and has a similar sinister dread and whimsical beauty akin to a Tim Burton style, yet a style that is Dougherty's own signature and shows the roots of the feature film. There are glowing jack lanterns, winding eerie moonlight roads, glowing eyes, menacing shadows, attacking the seemingly innocent. And of course, the true force to be reckoned with is Allie, suspecting and seemingly oblivious innocence, offering a fun twist and win among the seemingly doom and suspense built up. The film nails the wonder, horror and cost of forgetting that you never know The true being under any mask still is very much an introduction to Sam and this idea, so it is cool to see the origins and then what it became trick or treat is deep snow Marsh's two other Halloween and horror material that came before one of the most noticeable being things like Tales from the Crypt and Creepshow with its comic book style and multiple stories intersecting their inspirations from other genre and Halloween fare as diverse as John Carpenter's Halloween and the Great Pumpkin. Charlie Brown, particularly Halloween with Anna Paquin, Laurie the virginal and unsure but ultimately mighty capable and ferocious final girl of sorts, which seems to be a nod to Jamie Lee Curtis as Laurie with perhaps a bit more bite. Additionally, even Sam being a murderous, seemingly innocent dressed up child on Halloween to the suburban unlikeliest serial killer in the neighborhood, tapping into some commonalities and themes that evil can be lurking anywhere. I appreciate the film, nails a dark comedy tone, but it never a sacrifice is the horror. This can be a pretty difficult feat. It manages to balance the two styles masterfully. I think a part of this is most that the comedy is laced with twisted and sinister intent, not sacrificing the horror, an eerie, foreboding tone for the sake of a laugh. Even the villains are masked and a mistaken innocence. It plays with perceptions and darkness and light very well displaying Anyone has the potential to have an inner darkness just below the surface, hungry and waiting to unleashed. many horror anthologies have a good connecting piece or one or two particularly strong shorts that make you love them. But I think this film burns a little brighter for how well it crafts together. These stories all happening in the same town on Halloween night, with the characters passing one another in small but significant moments. many might have their favorites. But nearly all of these stories are equally strong, with a mix of chilling and fun escalation building suspense, dread and a morbid sense of exhilaration as they explore what Halloween can look like to different people, both the joys of it and the terror of it. From the core roots of honoring the dead to the chance to wear a costume and be someone else for the night. many anthologies also have shorts that don't all truly align in their themes and subject matter, and these are all tightly matched. They explore Halloween as the day, but also as a cautionary tale of what not honoring the day and the cost of showing the undeserving cruelty. It stands up as one of the stronger horror adaptations and definitely one of the best examples of Halloween set horror that truly embraces and explores the spirit of Halloween itself. if you would like to join our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, subscribe now and give this podcast a like and be sure to comment your wretched thoughts below. Keep our podcast suffering on by finding it in your cold, black withered hearts to support us on Patreon. A link to our PayPal is also below for one time donations of any amounts. It was nice knowing you.
