Dissecting NOS4A2 by Joe Hill | Novel, Series and Audiobook Spoiler-free Review

Hello, horrorphiles. In this episode, we dissect the horror novel NOS4A2 by Joe Hill along with the TV series starring Zachary Quinto and audiobook narrated by Kate Mulgrew.

“NOS4A2 is a horror novel about a woman trying to save her son from a vicious, supernatural killer,” according to Wikipedia. 

This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.

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Transcript

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Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. I’m writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. In this episode, we'll examine the novel NOS4A2 by Joe Hill. This dissection will be spoiler free. We are the horror whisperers, your champions of horror and keepers of the fear scape, if you will. I will. And we hope you will subscribe for more, won't you? Tis the season for demented lead. Delightful Christmas stories that have a way of lingering under your skin long after the last melodic carols fall to icy silence. Nosferatu is a horror novel about a woman trying to save her son from a vicious, supernatural killer, according to Wikipedia, Perhaps too simplistic of a description, but the back of the novel itself has the synopsis at three paragraphs. Regardless, the presumption one leaps to might be that of a vampire tale being that Nosferatu is associated with Count Dracula or some version of the legendary bloodsucker. But as with much of this book, the writing transcends what could be expected in both subject matter and quality. the story actually has as much to do with Christmas as vampires, while still not exactly being a Christmas story either. Which is convenient since we missed getting this podcast out before Christmas this year. Nos4a2 is a true gem and is among my favorites, not only within Christmas driven horror, but modern horror fiction as a whole. It is the most wickedly wonderful time of the year to revisit this gritty, enthralling, supernatural saga, making it fitting for dissecting Horror's December episode. Steve While admittedly the longer read, did you find this a more easily digestible novel compared to the language of our last book, Dissection The Haunting of Hill House? Absolutely. I think fact that generationally he is closer to me helped a lot in itself. But the way he spoke was not just more layman, but also in a language that spoke to me, so to speak. There was more of a flowery approach that Shirley Jackson had, which I think was a bit too divorced from my lifestyle, much less how anybody I've ever met actually talks. It was almost Victorian or something. I've done a lot of screenwriting myself, and in screenwriting descriptions are often reduced to bold information and it's more important to describe what's happening on the screen than to make it sound pretty. But in Hill's writing, there is always an indirect, more clever way of expressing every action that is not so convoluted or flowery as to become indecipherable or pretentious. Each character is expressed with distinctiveness. Everything is so artfully stated. I kept saying to myself, Well, that was a real clever way of saying that. I mean, I would have probably spent a day just trying to think of that analogy that he just sort of threw in there. He's throws these away right and left, and it's kind of amazing how he does that. And it just each one nails exactly what he was trying to communicate. What he is saying is just as profound as how he is saying it. It's not just the words he's using, but the meaning behind those words it's a command of not just the English language, but the art of communication in the same way. If you took the composer, John Williams, he has this technical mastery of music, but it's not just his knowledge of technique, it's how he channels that technique to really imparts emotion and meaning into what he's doing so perfectly. So you don't even notice the technique. And I think for Joe Hill, you think, okay, well, in my mind he's like a young guy, but he's actually looking at fifties now. He wrote this. I think he was in his early forties or something like that. But you think he's too young to have that breadth of knowledge to be so articulate on so many different things? And hopes that as both of his parents are writers, you know, ended grew up with some of that artistry, especially within the horror genre. True. But yeah, definitely. I think he sort of like a gritty realism to his style with yes, still being very layered and profound and like the depth is there without seeming flowery. Nosferatu is a chilling, layered, imaginative and immensely gripping story, driven by a sort of Yuletide macabre version of Neverland. And the idea that we all live in two worlds, one powered by one's mind and one the physicality outside of it, yet both being equally real, even if the former is cloaked in unknown to others. And Christmas land. The childhood joy at Christmas is alive for eternity. But at a hefty cost of losing one's family, humanity and very identity, becoming a demented, bloodthirsty plaything. And this yuletide funhouse controlled by the ethereal monster Charlie makes. While the concept is haunting, especially the wrongness of sinister layers that seem to be prevalent when Charlie Manx as Christmas seeps into the real world, long after Christmas has come and left, it is just as much powered by fantastic, compelling characters, both among the flawed heroes and their sinister nemesis, making you equally invested in them all. And here for the wild ride of dark Imagination made real Nosferatu was begun on the 4th of July 2009 and completed over the holidays in 2011, eventually to be published in 2013. Nazareth, Too, was Hill's third novel, previous works being Heart-Shaped Box in 27 and Horns in 2010, which was later produced as a film starring Daniel Radcliffe. Have you read any of Hill's other works? Yes, I've read both of those books and they're both great. 20th Century Goes, I think was the first thing he did, which is a collection of short stories before the novels. I think those are the main ones. I'm a little I'm blanking now. He had another one that they did a Netflix show of that. lock and key. Yes, You know what? I exactly the same thing. I loved the first season of Lock and Key, and then I could not get through the second or the first episode. There was that one thing that triggers me where people are constantly making out on screen and they had the the lead teenage guy and his girlfriend just just swallowing each other's faces for the first time, like, God. And it just kept going on and on and on and said, Fuck this. And I just bailed and never went back to it again. But I've been curious. I didn't even know that was a Joel thing at the time. But I might revisit that. I might give it another chance. Yeah. I believe it had three seasons and I think I got my I'm somewhat of a completionist, at least in finishing a chapter, unless you know it just giving me absolutely zero enjoyment. But yeah, I don't know. It had this sort of sinister, alluring quality that were and the story was really compelling. And then second season, I don't know, I just didn't have it. And it seemed like less dark kind of to me and less of that entrancing feel. But yeah, I kind of powered through, but I did. And I'm like, Yeah, the season did nothing for me. And then I think they announced the third one was the last one. And I'm like, You know what? I'm good. But yes, I have read a few of Joe Hill's books. Obviously, this is my favorites. But yeah, I think Heart-Shaped Box especially is is really creepy and powerful. So that one was really one. My first introduction to Joe Hill was in the 1982 film Creepshow, in which he played Billy the Little Boy at the beginning and end with the abusive father against whom he unleashes a voodoo doll ordered from the Creepshow comic book, a film written by Stephen King and directed by George a Romero, a personal favorite. Interesting. or you didn't know that Yeah. If I did, I forgot. Well, there you go. You learn something new, even on your own podcast. my only previous attempt at a nonfiction book was The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson, which we dissected earlier this year. That was 233 pages, which took me considerable time and effort to get through with Nosferatu. At nearly 700 pages, I found myself unable to manage the task with my recent schedule, so I resorted to my first experience with an audiobook at 19 hours and 27 minutes. The unabridged audiobook was performed by Kate Mulgrew, best known for playing Captain Kathryn Janeway on Star Trek Voyager for seven seasons. Admittedly, I had initial reservations about a narration by Kate Mulgrew since at times I considered her voice to be somewhat grating on Star Trek. However, quite to the contrary, I found her voice very well suited for this subject matter. There was even something comforting about her, and now I cannot imagine anyone else having narrated it. She fully dedicated herself to every character, every nuance, with no reservations. But this is actually more than just a narration. After all, it's a performance of the entire novel, including each of its characters, complete with their distinct personalities and accents. I wasn't sure if they were going to add sound effects and music. Have you ever heard an audio book where they did all that too? Yes. Audible and their originals are known for that and some of them are totally original pieces. Like they're not. Some of them are, you know, where there is a physical book component, some like they just did one for Slayers. It was like a Buffy sort of reunion piece with a lot of the original actors doing voice work for it. Yeah, that was one where almost like a teleplay or something where, you know, it's it was probably written almost like as a script for them in book form, but that their performance and especially like they, you know, recommend you have your AirPods, you know whatever while you're you're listening it is a super immersive experience like it it really sounds and feels like it's happening all around you with. Yeah, sound effects and sometimes a little, you know, whatever is happening on that street. And it really it is pretty cool and it really does add to the experience where, yeah, it's everything but the visuals, but then that's where your imagination kicks in. Have you ever physically read the book while listening to the audio book version? I have tried in like the it's not my favorite. I know some people that it really works for. Usually the speed's a little off, luckily are on a lot of different audiobook apps they do have where you can like adjust the speed, but I'm kind of like a one on one or the other or what I'll do. A lot of times I love to have a physical book, an audiobook, and, you know, maybe I wake up that day with coffee and go straight into the physical book, but then, get hungry, I need to make some food. You know, you need to do things where you can't be fully focused on that physical book. So I love having, okay, I'm on this chapter, let's put this chapter on the audiobook. So you kind of go from one to the other and essentially never have to stop taking in the story. Well, it sounds like you're pretty fast at it. Either way, I'm still marveling over how it is you people can find that much time to read. I mean, this book, as mentioned, is 693 pages long, and the audiobook is 19 and a half hours, just the audiobook alone. If I were to just read the book, I'm sure would have taken a lot longer than 19 and a half hours because I'm a slower reader, then it would have taken to just listen to it. But that's a ridiculous amount of time to devote to something. Thank God it turned out to be a good book or else I would have felt very upset by the end. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you liked it, and that, you know, you were able to make the reading journey. And I am a huge proponent of audiobooks, so I'm not too that you gave the audiobook a chance and then ended up really liking the the voice acting and whole experience of it. So a little excited just for that. And then of course, obviously the content of the book. So welcome to the world of audiobooks. Yeah. You say you don't know how you have time for audiobooks, but that's part of what makes audio books an easier process in some way because you can. You don't have to just be setting time aside to read a book. Obviously, if you can, that's great. But yeah, part of the benefit is you can be doing whatever else you need to be doing in your everyday life while having an audiobook and kind of takes you away to that world. But it seems like it would do the book a disservice if you're just washing dishes, listening to it in the background, you should devote more of your attention to it. do you. How focused do you think I am on my dishes? Like it's like a whole mental in shape with the dish? No, like my if it's that's why I feel like it works when it's. Yeah. If you're like we're also like working on something or like answering emails while you're listening to audiobook. Yeah, I get that because then you're not really that focused because even if it's something simple, your mind has to be focused on. Whatever you're saying or whatever other thing you're reading, you know? But if you're doing something where I don't know, like just average menial tasks, sort of a thing, or I'll even put them on like when I wake up, it helps me like wake up because that's more exciting than Well, wow, wake up and start the day. Like, just like. But if you I'm listening to like a horror fantasy or something that's enthralling, that brings out life to me. And yeah, it just makes the parts of life more exciting. Nosferatu as a show was very intriguing and exhilarating in many ways and very flawed in others. So you say Nosferatu. When I say Nosferatu, Nosferatu, which is which is right in my right, it's probably not because it not more of the German it comes from the German pronunciation. Yeah. and I think that's probably Nosferatu. God gave me a shiver. Vic McQueen is a messy, flawed, but very genuine protagonist who among trying to get her life back together after years of being plagued by what she came to believe were delusions she finds herself having to face not only the threat of a powerful, ethereal foe, but also trying to navigate battles of self-worth and the difficult task and responsibility of motherhood. She has some very dark, real moments, especially in regards to her son and her attempts to repair relationships with her estranged parents in different ways. While it's not an easy path for her, she comes to be brave, resilient and full of raw nerve and determination. The main supporting character, who is a key part of the Battle of the Strong creatives, is a wonderfully centric stuttering librarian named Maggie Leigh, who Vic first meets as a child when she takes her bridge, summoned by her own mind across state lines, leading her to Maggie as she can guide her in a way no one else can. And perhaps because of this offbeat and at times reluctant friendship is a fateful power all in its own. There are similarities between Maggie in the book and show, but I deeply love both versions of this character in different ways. They tone down the almost needy centric, pure hearted wit of Maggie in the show, but keep many core elements such as being an orphan librarian whose scrabble tiles prophesies, giving her the ability to enlighten while also taking a toll on her that is more than skin deep. She's also perhaps the most valiant, bold, true to herself character in both versions, Sort of the mentor character. While much is still a mystery to her. Of course, Vic's ex and the father of her child, Lou, is also an incredibly endearing character that works as a middle ground between the strong creatives world and the world most people can see. He is an homage to the fanboys out there with a love of Star Wars and Batman even naming their son Bruce Wayne. In many ways he is an underdog and certainly not the typical leading man. Yet he is portrayed in a positive light. While he's still holds realism and fears of what the magnitude of what they're up against can mean, but also fears for his own worth and capabilities. He has fierce love and fight within him, especially when it comes to his family, enabling him to open up his mind to this world. Many couldn't get space to exist Vic's parents as well ride this line of imperfect and human showing how people can be loving and well-intentioned while still having their own shortcomings and reckonings to deal with, especially when it comes to parenting where your decisions directly affect another life. She is estranged from them for many years, so there isn't sugarcoating. But there is a certain human quality in trying to navigate these relationships as adults, especially when it comes to her son being taken from her and having to take a look at the difficulties and at times plaguing quality of motherhood. Charlie Manx is an incredibly interesting villain. There is an elusiveness to him. He tells us Nosferatu is a sort of joke inspired by his ex-wife, commenting on his life sucking nature. He is vampiric and more ways than just his personality gaining power and control by the children he kidnaps, claiming he's freeing them to realize every child's dream. He also happens to give them a certain appetite for human flesh. While this is mostly implied, like Vic and Maggie Leigh. He has a strong creative meaning. He can manipulate elements of the real world into being from his mind. His car, the Wraith, is his vehicle for manipulation and sucking the lifeforce will and memory out of these children to bring them over to the side of a fantastical, yet ferocious Christmas fantasy Mecha. While he mentions a few things from his past and why he wanted to create a place like Christmas Island, his origins, or the true nature of his breed of monster aren't really gone into this could have been a way to add more layers and understanding to the character. There are a few origin story moments of this in the show, which were interesting and effective, but I also don't feel like are truly needed. Manx is a fearsome and deliciously twisted villain. The mystery and true scope of his power and shape of the puppeteer he is. Makes it more compelling as we don't really know what our protagonists are up against. Being Manx is desperate and almost too eager. Apprentice is probably the least likable character, but still a very interesting one, full of his own dark delusions and toxic mentalities that were present in him since childhood. The perfect sponge for Manx. His heroic claims of saving children who are certainly doomed to be unhappy if left with their parents. He had a very dark home life ending in disaster, but still remembers the joy of one particular Christmas morning where all was perfect with his family, wishing they could have stayed in that forever. He brings forth a gingerbread gas that helps, makes kidnaping all the easier, often keeping the mothers for a time and bending them to his wills and twisted fantasies. He is very childlike and naive in moments, but also the bringing of some of the most twisted darkness in the story, a derangement in him that he convinces himself is his purpose in the world. Since I don't have Apple TV Plus or whatever it's called, I only watched a few trailers for the series AMC and Shudder two is it? I did a search for it on Just watch Tor.com and it said it's not available except for one or two episodes on Pluto TV or something like that. Maybe they took it off, but there's a lot to seasons, correct? Two seasons. Did they finish the whole book or did it get canceled before they gained completion? Essentially, they go a little. Most most of it follows the book, but it's there as they kind of start to go their own path, essentially, too. So, yeah, I would say the story from the book is completed in the show. Zachary Quinto plays our lead villain, Charlie Manx, a.k.a Nosferatu himself. another notable Star Trek actor who played Mr. Spock in the J.J. Abrams films. As much as I admire his acting, he was great in American Horror Story as well, by the way. And without having seen the Nos4a2 show, I can't help but consider him as perhaps miscast here. The character JR of Charlie Manx. My mind should more closely resemble Mr. Burns from The Simpsons and actually envisioned specifically Mr. Burns while reading the entire book. And it was still scary. It didn't it didn't ruin it. So. Zachary Quinto He feels too young to me. I know there's a younger version of him and they need to be able to show both a younger and an older version somehow. But he just did not look to me anything how I imagined him. Maybe that's just a personal thing, a subjective thing, that each person will have their own vision in their mind of what that character should look like. But it sure wasn't Zachary to me. yes, I was. That's shocking. But I get it. Like I knew of the book, but I actually watched the show first, and I just immediately loved Zachary Quinto in this character. But I also wanted more because I it was one of those, you know, sometimes you see an adaptation where you're like, there's something really compelling and interesting here, but, you know, certain flaws or limitations or are not resolved well. And at least with me personally, it makes me just want to dive deeper into that source material. So I believe I watched the first season of the show first and then read the book and then I think the second season and then the book again, of course. But yeah, it's interesting that they do the aging make up and there might have been some digital effects added in the show. But yeah, he's definitely different ages and different times and it looks convincing and real. Yeah. Zachary Quinto is really just made for dark, complex villain roles like this. I also absolutely loved him in American Horror Story, especially Asylum. That's such an amazing portrayal, but will not rabbit trail into that in Nosferatu. He thrives in this complex character in his frightening, commanding, mysterious and thrilling. Most of the material was true to the book Source material and characters. So a lot of what I liked about the book has moments of coming to light in the show as well. But it really got caught in this trap between the brat and Minx battling it out again and again, one seeming to bring the other to their demise. But the show had to continue. So it was temporary. They would both be fine. Eventually and continue the battle. It was too circular and limited the growth of either character and also got to the point where Vic had been through about all she could stand where you just wanted to let her get some rest in peace before she was totally driven out of her mind and numbed to nothing. The most promising turn among the cancellation of the show would, in my opinion, to give Maggie Lee a spin off finding and battling strong creatives with the sociopathic and dangerous nature like Manx as this world was far bigger than the three of them. There were endless other entities, some well-intentioned, some utterly vile and out to destroy the world, passing the baton to Maggie. So to speak, would have given Vic and Minx the chance to rest and bring us away from the formulaic repeating cycle, opening endless new potential through someone who was ready to take a bigger adventure and sense of purpose to go along with the draining darkness and consequences her gifts used. While there are little areas where the show expanded on origins and characters growth, largely it is a case where this story works most powerfully in a singular story, and dragging it out in show form simply hitting the replay button did not serve the depth and strength of the material as well as it could have. I have this thought What if someone took a book and actually shot everything? It contained word for word Granted, it would have to be a pretty short book. But can you imagine and unabridged movie, Has anybody done anything close to that that you can think of? I wish for that all the time. so I'm not that's not an original thought. No, it's a very. I've definitely heard that among the Potter fans. Yes. Give us a version with every single moment taking nothing out. There are people I don't know. I was like, It'd be nice if you could do like the average viewers cut who probably wouldn't be in that invested and wouldn't want a super long, in-depth version with everything included. And then like the super fan version where they would just absolutely love scene every detail realized on screen. my cursory impression of the trailers. It looked unremarkable to me. It looked like there was some semblance of care and quality attempted, but it didn't match in any way what was in my head that the casting at first. Just a glimpse. Just a second. that's I can recognize that that character. But a closer look made me feel like, that doesn't quite. It's like they didn't quite get someone with that level of depth and sharpness in their eyes. You go, wow, that's a distinctive person. It was more like they fit the mold, but it didn't quite take that next level of performance or casting that would have really nailed it. So I don't know. I haven't watched it, but I felt like it was a slightly blander version than it could have been yeah, I can see that. I mean, I, I overall really liked the cast, but they are different versions to an extent. And yeah, you could definitely view it as like the, the more Hollywood glossed over Polish I guess representation. But for me the bigger issue was the writing. And even with saying that there are things about the writing of the show that I did really like, but it was it was kind of a frustrating one because there was I mean, for me, Zachary Quinto alone in that character was just so enticing and so interesting. And I love him in just dark material, and especially given a complex role like that, like that would have been enough to keep me watching. But it was a little bit of a frustrating show as again, I think it's partially just this repetitive. It was just kind of like they're just going to keep on going at it forever. Like they never found ways to grow beyond that. And so, yeah, it was sort of a missed opportunity and a as I mentioned, it kind of felt like dragged out like a like a really strong story sometimes is better and just I mean, it's yeah, it is like a longer book, 700 pages. But yeah, the show just had a way with I think it was still maybe like 1013 episodes per season. But even so, it had a way of just feeling really dragged out rather than just nailing that powerful impact and letting it be. That's interesting because as you say, it's such a long book. How should it possibly feel? Anything but like they've got more material than they need to to cram in. There should feel like, the pacing should be the opposite of dragged out. Yeah. somehow they managed to miss the mark. While the idea of holding on to the bliss of Christmas is a driving factor for Manx and what he coaxes the children with much of the novel takes place in Summer Vic, already plagued by Christmas time, haunting thanks to Manx comments on hearing Christmas music in June and how it feels all the more unnatural and haunting. This is dark Christmas law, but it goes beyond that, showing there is sometimes too much of a good thing. What was once embracing a childhood innocence and Mary Jane becomes contorted, savage and fatal. That is the true impact of Manx and his Christmas land. A Christmas song coming on the radio or ringing in your ears near your demise is all the more taunting, distorting and terrifying, especially when powered by a vampire like monster who uses it to condemn and reward in his own personal winter land labyrinth of games and allusion, you expect a certain level of darkness with the storyline and concept here, and there are many wonderfully macabre moments, but the darkest moments that really take you back actually are not that focus on Christmas Island or Charlie Manx is power lust. The more grim and heavy hitting moments are more character focused and reflexes of the human condition and the world we live in. Things such as they struggle with motherhood at times feeling like it is a curse, that she can never be selfish or feel her sorrow and pain with another life dependent on her. She could be cursed to or the mature realization and fear Wayne has among being kidnaped, his mind accepting atrocious assaults as inevitable and working out the best way to survive it before it even happens. Not to mention beings entire character, particularly his drugging and sexual assault of the mothers of the kidnaped children and how he uses them to live out his fantasies. There is a lot of heavy material here, much of it wrapped up in childhood dreams, the fear of growing up and dysfunctional families. This works to add a grim but real element to a more fantastical, yet menacing horror story without seeming to over the top, but finding a way to intricately balance and challenge the other while still having moments of brightness, bravery, love and ownership of shortcomings of weaknesses, and how sometimes perceived weaknesses can reveal our strengths. We have been too afraid to claim as our own. Born Joseph Hill Strong king it cannot be ignored that Joe Hill is son of Stephen King, a writer who needs no introduction but no less significant. He is also son to Tabitha King, author of eight novels, and to whom Nosferatu was dedicated, quote to my mom. Here's a mean machine for the story, Queen, unquote. Now it would be too easy to say he gets it from his father or his mother. And I don't want to dismiss that influence. I personally find it rather invalidating to attribute someone's ability to another by way of genetics. I always resented it when someone assigned credit for my skills in drawing, for example, to my father based on the fact that he happened to be an artist too. I can't deny this influenced and even inspired me in some ways, but I question that artistry is even a gene to be passed down. Let's give credit where credit is due. Joe Hill is the creator of his own works and achievements. Absolutely. I mean, he is a very talented writer. You see some of the similarities, but Yeah, you could It doesn't mean that it's given because your parent is a certain profession or has this talent, even if they try to influence you, you know, you could he could very well have been like, I want to be a horror writer and not have been any good at it. You know, maybe he might have got his first book published with some connections. But yeah, I think he has more than proven himself as a very talented, nuanced writer. Still, we do have this term Napo baby. Nepotism means favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, It comes from the Latin word nipost, which means nephew. And so Napo baby refers to the children of celebrities who have succeeded in careers similar to those of their parents. The implication is that because their parents already had connections to an industry, the child was able to use those connections to build a career in that industry. It is unfortunate that this will always hang over the career of Joe Hill because regardless of his famous father, he really is a next level talented writer who, if anything, has worked to establish a career without taking advantage of his father's name. Regardless, he has undeniably benefited from having that resource of such accomplished parents. Either way, it does strike me how statistically improbable it is that a son would have the same level of talent as his father. And on the subject of nipple babies, there are many whom I appreciate as much or more than their parents, such as Jamie Lee Curtis, Michael Douglas and Bill Skarsgard, to name a few. Yeah, I mean, I think with anything it's not. I don't, at least for me. And I think a lot of people, they don't think that they're any less talented. I think it's just the term just comes from acknowledging that you probably had a few more connections, whereas maybe there was someone in the next room who was just as talented as you, who didn't get that second look. You know how many talented people are there who never get their shot, you know? So which is a reality, you know, that's probably going to be true in almost any most part of like a lot of professions. You know, if you have a parent very successful and well respected, probably if they have a kid who is pursuing that same path, there's going to be some opportunities and connections open to them a little more easily. So I don't you know, I don't know. I don't view it necessarily as bad things. Just they got a shot and they were talented and people responded to it so great. I think most people in any industry, especially in entertainment, are there because of who they know, whether they're related to them or not is, you know, another thing, But it's those connections that you can make, those communication lines that you establish or what are going to get you ahead. If you happen to be born with those in your family, great. But otherwise, even those who don't have that advantage still make their way forward through people that you know. I love Christmas horn. Anything that digs deep into the dark potential of the law and entities man or myth who might shape it to their will or delusions. Still, I'm not that big on Christmas itself, especially a forever Christmas. That sounds absolutely dreadful to me. The Christmas season is already stretched out a bit too much for my taste. I I am definitely much more partial to Halloween but would absolutely volunteer as tribute if given the chance to live in a forever Halloween. I can admit as a child Christmas had a higher level of magic and wonder and represented that childhood bliss. What about you? If Manx visited you as a child, do you think you would be taken by the idea of freedom from parents and an eternal, scary little Christmas if given a taste of his power and dark nature? No, I've gone through that scenario in my mind, but with the lens of Star Wars. And when I go to the dark side or be a Jedi, and I think my my footing is firm on the the side, which is perhaps less sexy and less filled with easy gains. Part of me finds life to be more gratifying when you can actually overcome things and win because of you. You did things the way you're supposed to, that the right way, ethically. perhaps that's more too much to expect from a child 2 to 2 way. But I don't know. I never when I was reading the book, I didn't feel like Christmas Land sounded that great to me as I want to be able to, you know, be a man. I want to be able to, you know, you know, have women in my life. And I don't want to just perpetually play hopscotch and shit like that. I want to I want to do shit. I want to grow up. And I think that's one the things that children are always thinking about is like, what am I going to do when I grow up? And if you can ever do that, that would really suck. Yeah, that's fair. So you're not you're no Peter Pan. No, definitely not a Peter Pan. Nobody has ever accused me of that. Now, between Joe Hill and Stephen King, who do you like better? Who is better Stephen King? Sorry, Joe Hill is great. Partially just because I. I have read so many Stephen King books that were just incredible in different ways. And maybe Joe Hill will be there one day. Not to say he's like not far along in his career, but it's just insane how many great novels Stephen King has written, probably more so than the vast majority of writers. And there's been some of his that I didn't love as much. But there is always, I don't know, just this atmospheric, just a well, well crafted, very full of depth and so many different perspectives from commentary on things, you know, in our world. And one thing that he does, he like a kind of a common theme of his that I really love just exploring the possibilities of evil and the different forms it may take. And sometimes that's a place is almost evil itself. And like it is just such a interesting, intricate, just really discovering and looking at fear and from the powerful entity that could control it to, you know, in a child and how it manifests in conquering it and just so many great characters. So I think it's just the depth of his work and just having one after another that just really hit with me. So I absolutely love and admire and will continue to enjoy checking out Joe Hill's work. But yeah, right now, right now it's King Are there writing styles similar? I would say. Yeah, I think they're fairly similar also, you know set they both grow up or live in you know I know Stephen King's main but you know even you know sort of that small town east coast where I think they kind of, you know, there's some variety, but they tend to have characters and that sort of local and more often than not, I don't it's kind of weird is that like average, you know, like the average man sort of a thing. And, you know, sometimes that's outcast characters, sometimes it's not. But I think that's sort of pocket of their America, you know, that the type of setting and characters that they they tend to cover is definitely a similar, similar area. I did recognize, interestingly enough, a number of locales referenced in this book that are used in other Stephen King stories such as Derry, Shawshank and Castle Rock, creating in Hill's work an extension of the Stephen King Universe, Which was kind of cool. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how you can get away with that because it's like a different, you know, different person. But I guess if anybody is going to get away with it, it's going to be Joe Hill. Yeah, I would kind of view it as his way of honoring his father's work while still kind of bridging his own path. I know he mentioned and I think it was in the show that there was a character he named after his mom, Tabitha as well. So, you know, maybe it's a little a little love letter to the parents. I did watch both seasons of Castle Rock, by the way. Yes, me too. I enjoyed the I think the first one better. You said you like the second season. And my God, I love the second season. I love what they did with the first one, and especially Bill Skarsgard performance. I love him in a lot of different, you know, different sort of horror characters depictions. But and he's coming out with the Nosferatu. I know I'm very excited about that. But yeah, that one, that performance in that first season of his, it was just so multifaceted from like just at times being so hollow and not even understand who he is. And then, you know, without saying too much certain darkness and maniacal aspects kind of taking over him and how he just played like Bolt total polar opposites in this one character, what with it still seeming very like natural and authentic. And even just like his eyes, I swear, like you could just see that like that hollowness in his eyes. But yeah, I've loved a lot of different performances of his and that might be his best performance that I've seen. Wow. Okay. I really love the second season more for, I guess like more for the story. And it was a very different pacing. They were they just had so many different elements that I loved. Like I loved the Annie Wilkes character and how they kind of brought this different perspective to her at a different time and really all the characters. And then there was sort of this other dark magic cult sort of aspect intertwining with it. But yeah, I feel like it would have could have done something really special to continue to build that world, because Castle Rock in itself, you know, he will use in a lot of Stephen King will use in a lot of his books to kind of show this, you fictional towns, but kind of overarching and how they kind of the you know adjacent towns touching each other and different stories existing. So close together. And that seemed like that was part of the point of the show was to slowly build that and have this almost like bigger horror universe of his. But who knows, maybe it'll get revived one day. Well, let's hope for the best. Nosferatu is a perfect winter seasonal read and must read Modern Horror triumph that is equally fantastical, supernatural adventure and true to life. Messy character exploration. It is immensely haunting and captivating from start to finish and worthy of a place on every horror fans bookshelf. If you would like to join our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, subscribe now and give this podcast to like. and be sure to comment your wretched thoughts below. Keep our podcast suffering on by finding it in your cold, black withered hearts to support us on Patreon. A link to our PayPal is also below for one time donations of any amount. It was nice knowing you