The X-Files vs. Doctor Who: A Dissection Double Feature

Hello, horrorphiles. In this exciting double feature, we have each selected one episode from a favorite series to introduce to the other. Steven chose The X-Files: Bad Blood with guest stars Patrick Renna and Luke Wilson while Kelsey chose Doctor Who: The God Complex with Matt Smith and Karen Gillan.

The X-Files, Season 5, Episode 12: Bad Blood
“Scully and Mulder each recount their version of events that led Mulder to drive a stake through the heart of a Texas teenager he claims was a vampire,” according to The Internet Movie Database.

Doctor Who, Season 6, Episode 11: The God Complex
“The Doctor, Amy and Rory become trapped in a hotel of horrors unable to escape and unable to find the TARDIS. The Doctor must save as many people as he can, taking many twists, and seeing his own worst fear” according to The Internet Movie Database.

This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.

We hope you find it in your cold, black, withered hearts to join our Society of Grotesquery and Loathing and keep our podcast suffering onward:

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Photo credit: Slevin Mors

Transcript

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Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. I’m writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski In this exciting double feature, we have each selected one episode from a favorite series to introduce to the other. I chose The X-Files. She chose Doctor Who. We are The Horror Whisperers, your Champions of Horror. in Our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, if you will. I will. And we hope you will subscribe for more, won't you? Fittingly enough, are choices for one another both hail from iconic sci fi series. These particular episodes delve into classic horror lore from their breed of monster myth and haunting settings, but also have a certain tongue in cheek, offbeat wit and whimsy and facing the mystery and terror ahead. The X-Files Season five Episode 12 Bad Blood Scullion Mulder each recount their version of events that led Mulder to drive a stake through the heart of a Texas teenager he claims was a vampire. According to the Internet movie database, Prior to watching this episode, my main experience with the X-Files universe was the film X-Files. I want to believe I may have watched an episode or two of this show over the years, but I can't really recall any from memory. For context, I'm also very picky about sci fi and aliens having much more selective taste in regards to these than I am with horror as a whole. Additionally, while there are some that really work for me, the procedural Monster of the Week style of television usually isn't my preference. Of course, due to how big the series was in pop culture, I had a decent framework and expectations for the subject matter, tone, themes and relationship dynamics of the show. All in all, I was going in with fairly fresh eyes and only knowing the episode involved. My favorite creature of the night Vampires. This 1998 The X-Files episode employs the Rashomon effect, a storytelling method in which an event is given contradictory interpretations by the individuals involved, providing different perspectives of the same incident. The effect is named after Akira Kurosawa's 1950 Japanese film Rashomon, meaning Main City Gate, in which a murder is described in four contradictory ways by four witnesses, and so is used to describe the phenomenon of the unreliability of eyewitnesses and The Rashomon effect has been employed in sitcoms, mostly commonly exaggerating each character's interpretation of the same events to comedic extents. Each typically painting themselves as more virtuous over their counterparts while telling the same story. It has been used in countless shows from The Odd Couple. Malcolm in the Middle, Frasier, and of course, The Simpsons. This episode of The X-Files retains that same comedic tone, in contrast to its usual more dire nature. the style of storytelling is creative and effective in giving us a taste of where we are going while still leaving it drenched in mystery to then pulled the allusive layers back. A large focus of the episode is how memory and perspective can be unreliable and wildly differing, especially with two people who have fundamentally different relationships and responses to the strange and unknown. one of the episode writers, Vince Gilligan, stated it was this. He said she said story delivery that excited him about the story most upon writing it, and it was less about the vampire for him, why he focused last on trying to make that unique vampire portrayal and put more focus on the battle in the retelling of events. Personally, I would prefer the unique vampire story and focus to be on the vampire, but I still appreciate what he did here. Bad Blood plays with this and has fun along the way and difference of perception and how sometimes how what we want to remember things speaks louder. Whether it speaks to heroics or pride, it can alter that memory. There is a entertaining difference in characterization, attitudes and impulses. Scully and Mulder. Stories intersect at times, while at times being at different places and having stories only they can tell. Powering the narrative through to be more than purely comedic commentary on perception, the storytelling style slowly lets us find the truth through their largely consistent, even if slightly differing account of events. Bad Blood was written by Vince Gilligan, writer, director and producer of many X-Files episodes, and later creator of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, along with several X-Files spinoffs. Are you a fan of Breaking Bad? Kelsey I was, but I guess I'm a bad fan because I never finished the show. It was one of those I watched and was into, I think, for about four solid seasons and through no fault of its own, I it was one I kind of fell off with. Again, I think it's just the nature of anything. Horror or supernatural tends to take my focus more. So I think it was just at a time where I watched. I think I like binged a bunch on Netflix and then I just never caught up with it. But I appreciate it was very, very well done. Show very well acted. I still have no idea why Breaking Bad is even called that, but that's probably because I've never seen it apart from the first episode, which I could not get more than halfway through. It's one of those where everyone else has seen it and loves it, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to give a flying rat's ass. Of course, I have said the same thing about The Godfather. So do with that information what you will. also, Bryan Cranston, Breaking Bad Star is an actor who I think because of Breaking Bad, has won the hearts of so many. And when I do see him in something, I always hear people's glowing praise of everything he touches. But I just don't see what the big deal is. With all due respect, I don't know how many other things I've seen him in, you know, post Breaking Bad, but it's probably he does give a very fantastic performance in Breaking Bad. So it might be partially sometimes when there's a really iconic role or character that's so beloved. Not to say that, you know, talented actors are diverse and can bring that to different roles, But I think there is an element of you almost think of that character and that previous work when viewing them in the future. So maybe partially that And Cranston does appear in an episode of The X-Files, by the way, co-written by Vince Gilligan, which probably led to him becoming cast in Breaking Bad by Gilligan years later. I'm a vampire girl through and through while I am always team Monster. Vampires are definitely the supernatural monster I am most enamored by and connected to. So give me vampires and you have automatically piqued my interest. A concern in The X-Files. The dynamic of Mulder and Scully. These differences in mindsets is a driving force in bad blood and offers equally interesting possibilities and who their blood drained victim could be A vampire pop culture enthusiast dabbling in the occult or a true vampire. Scully's logical, rational mindset and Mulder's open minded, bold belief offer wonderful contrasts that establish a compelling mystery and intrigue developing in compelling ways. The highlight of this episode for me was any time Mulder talked about vampire law and possibilities. I appreciated his acknowledgment of there being many different forms realities, weaknesses, Strengths of vampires in different cultures is both interesting to think of how big the scope of vampires are and also potentially deadly. If you put all your stock in one belief or version, that may be nothing more than superstition. That is one of the many things I love about vampires as a subject and the diverse stories they can bring to life, reminiscent of the specific myths, cultures, fears, and even very human struggles they are born from. There are endless possibilities with a few tantalizing constants, such as immense strength, immunity, long lifespans, if not immortal, being bloodthirsty creatures, part man, part monster, and having a certain hypnotic pull. Really, as long as we are not given the mournful woe is me vampires, I can go with it and enjoy the ride. at first glance we are given a cunning, unsuspecting, yet reckless vampire, but one with limited entry who comes off as a bit over the top and comical at times. While this isn't all that serious of a vampire, a character study, I did appreciate one of the later twists that gives us more of the traditional hypnotic, mysterious, predatory vampire that is a little bit more alluring than menacing. This episode does not connect with any overarching storylines. The X-Files is famous for, with its alien government conspiracies, and such is what is termed a monster of the week, also called Villain of the Week, Freak of the Week, etc., where the antagonist only appears in one episode of a multi-episode work and so functions as a standalone, self-contained story requiring little or no understanding of the rest of that show's history. Such are more rare these days, with streaming series geared more towards binge watching and uninterrupted storyline over its season. In fact, you, Kelsey, had a hell of a time finding a standalone episode to suggest, despite the volume of content you ingest. I think I watched about 20 episodes to find my one episode for Steve to watch. To be fair, I initially did not understand the assignment, so I was just. At first I went into it thinking, okay, I just find one really powerful horror episode outside of context and being able to watch that and then what enamored you and make you want to watch more. So, you know, I was watching some that definitely weren't standalones, but even I thought I had a good one and Lovecraft Country, which we decided not to go into. And then once I it was really once I opened it more to okay, it doesn't necessarily have to be a horror series, but an episode that is spooky, eerie, suspenseful. Building kind of this dread. And then, of course, our talks of you loving sci fi and not watching the newer Doctor Who. I'm like, Okay, I got to find one. There's going to be a Doctor Who episode. So we did it. Yeah. Mission accomplished. Bad blood also delivers on the macabre settings largely taking place in a small town in Texas. But more importantly, setting most scenes in the morgue and a quaint, yet creepy town cemetery. there is an entrancing, eerie nature to the visuals in these scenes. But is more about how their simple settings yet intrinsically linked to death and classic horror stories. Mulder details why this cemetery is the logical place for them to find their vampire or human vampire loving and cultist both because a vampire must return to their home soil to slumber, and because it is a nocturnal haven filled with death visited by the living. It is like a siren call. The morgue scenes offer their own creepiness too, with the stark coldness and stillness, with Scully largely being alone, mirrored with the detached yet visual starkness of her bloody dissection of the dead, her lack of belief in supernatural and her unconcern and almost bored attitude builds up a sense of dread and the audience believing horror might be lurking just behind This episode guest stars Luke Wilson and Patrick Renna, the latter perhaps best known for the kids baseball classic The Sandlot, where he plays Ham Porter, the chubby catcher. Now I have a real life horror story with Patrick Renna of my own, which I will get into momentary silly. But The Sandlot is yet another film everyone has seen or grew up with. While I only watched it for the first time, maybe two months ago. As a baseball fan and former little leaguer. I did enjoy it. Did you catch that movie, Kels? I definitely watched it several times, like in my childhood. I've had those that like labyrinth I just watched in the past year and especially being into like, fantasy. I was like, most people find that very shocking. So there's there's those like childhood staples that, you know, you kind of just miss and come around to. But yeah, I did watch it. As a side note, I've been watching Moneyball with Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill on a loop, like just in the background all day, every day, whenever I'm home. It's just one of those where I just it's one of those background films that I just love, like Sideways so here's what happens. Around the year 2000, I used to work in Glendale, California, at an establishment called COPPICE Central. There are operated copy machines of various sorts. One fine day, Patrick Renna, of all people strolled into the store. It was just the two of us there. He needed some copies of his acting resume. I immediately recognized him not just as that actor from The Sandlot and this episode of The X-Files, but as someone who belongs to my same church. So while chatting it up with him, I also made the copies. He came in to make. he was very warm and communicative and left a satisfied customer. Great. But maybe an hour later I went to that same copy machine and found to my horror that I had left his original resume on the glass. I was so distracted by our chat that I committed that most unthinkable of rookie mistakes in my former profession. I was and am mortified by this. I don't know if he ever came back for it, but I did put it in lost and found. Hopefully he blames himself. no. The horror I like to think that I have since moved past this sort of fluttering when encountering celebrities, of which I have seen many. As someone who lives in L.A., out and about in public. But when you and I were filming the Frankenstein Monster project, I went up to Bronson Caves in Griffith Park with Jeff, our producer, to do some camera tests a week before principal photography. Did I ever tell you, Jack Black was there? I don't think so. But I love Jack Black. That's great. He was there with his son, and I just was talking to Jeff as we're walking down the trail. And I heard Jack Black's voice and became disoriented, like, where is this coming from? We're in reality. I'm not listening to anything. And there he was. It was the first time I've ever seen him with his big gray beard. So it's hard to recognize him. And a few moments later at the cave itself, I was standing alone in the middle of what's essentially a long tunnel carved out of the mountain, which they call it a cave, but it's more like a tunnel. It's both. But it was dark and I was alone in it with my camera, pointing it around, trying to get readings for light and so forth. And then Jack enters one end of it and walks straight to me. I'm recognizing that it's him, and I'm like, What the fuck do I do? Do I say Hi? I love Jack Black, too. He's like one of my favorites. So I immediately I just freeze up. I don't know what to do. I'm, you know, I'm conflicted. And it's awkward because we're the only two people in this cave, and he's walking straight to me, and there's not like, there's anywhere he could go around. He just walks up to me, he looked like he would have said hi or or had a conversation. He looked very approachable, but I was just so tense that he just kind of like, just walked by and went out the other end, especially in the dark cave, you know, someone seeming a little unhinged. You're like, you Who knows what was going through his mind. But since then, I always thought, wow, you know, if I would have chatted it up and if he was interested in the idea of our film, maybe he could have been in it, maybe been The Wolf Man or something for a shot. So that was another one of those moments where I lost my cool a little bit. Similarly, I was in this hotel back in the nineties when I saw Kirstie Alley coming down the otherwise empty hall right at me. I recognized her and here to immediately froze up. She looked at me to say hi or whatever, and I immediately looked away as she passed. Like, I couldn't see her somehow in this long, empty hallway. I really wish I had said hello. At least she was all gussied up and looking quite stunning, which actually, I think added to my inability to speak anything coherent to her. And I feel like my one of my best, I guess, celebrity interactions was someone who I didn't realize it was them at the time. And I was just like, connecting to them is like a person I got along with. And then this was actually about a year ago at a horror convention and he was actually running his girlfriend's like a Colt booth, like just a little kind of antiquities and creative. Well, you know, morbid bat fixtures and things like that. And just talking to him for like a while, like, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes at least. And I was like, man, you know, I don't know if anyone's ever told you this, but you really look like this actor on The Originals, which is one of my favorite shows of all time. He's like, Yeah, that's because that's And yeah, he was super nice and great. But I feel like if I knew who he was right away and I was just like, man, I loved you on this show, it would have been a brief, non consequential thing, but it was like so much more valuable. Even once we found out who, you know, I would confirm that's who it is. He, you know, talked to us about all this, working with this person and behind the scenes and just things about being an actor and, you know, some of the struggles. And I don't know, it was just like a very real conversation that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily expect to have if you didn't make a genuine connection with him just as a person that you got along with first. So that was kind of cool Was it mortifying once you realized who he was? I, I couldn't believe it. I'm like, No, no. He was like, Yes, Really? Really. That's me, It could almost be insulting to him. It's like, What do you mean? No, I'm right. That's me. Watched him on more than one show, too. He was on originals. And shortly after the CW did a sort of reboot of, blanking the Alien show as well. That narrows it down. Roswell, New Mexico. another one I've never saw, but sounds like it was inspired by The X-Files. Well, there was the original Roswell and like the nineties, it's based on anything. It was based on a book that was based on a book. Then there was the show, Roswell, I think. Yeah, like late nineties. And then this was a reboot of that. okay. Well, still, I'm sure it was inspired by The X-Files. Overall, Bad Blood is an enjoyable episode that explores vampiric law, culture and human nature. Well, while personally I would have liked it to be a tad bit darker and more serious in moments with a larger focus on the vampire itself, the offbeat humor and cheesy moments within the mystery seem to be a staple of the show and largely worked, even viewing this episode on its own merits within the over-the-top and tongue in cheek moments. There was still the dark, morbid subject matter and looming mystery that countered it in an effective balancing of tones. It didn't have me on the edge of my seat, and it won't be added to my favorite vampire depictions. But it was still a fun episode that managed to weave in a lot in its 45 minute runtime. Who do you think was more hunky here? David Duchovny or Luke Wilson? Well, Luke Wilson, but I'm a Luke Wilson fan, so yeah, he was a fun surprise to see and I wasn't really expecting that. And it's kind of like a fun thing of watching slightly older shows. Like, not even that. It's like older, older, but like I didn't totally come around to the fandom, but when I was like bingeing Supernatural for ten seasons, you see, and so many small parts, you see actors then blew up and are like, I know this person from that show. And it's kind of fun to go back and see them like earlier in their career. But yeah, I thought he did very well. He was compelling and interesting. And then where things go, I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense. It was funny to the aspect ratio when originally aired was four by three, which fit the more squarish TVs that existed at the time. This high definition remasters cropped at the top and bottom to make it widescreen the sides expanded out more where possible. Do you have any feelings one way or another about tampering with original material? Kelsey I I'm I'm like, I feel like something has to be very visually distinctive for me to, like, focus on that as the main issue. Obviously. I mean, it's I can have respect for how things were like intended to, to be. But ultimately, I guess if you can enhance it and make it, you know, updated or more visually impressive, if it doesn't contradict like the original artistic intent, I guess like if it's something that was, I don't know, like black and white movies that they then will bring to color. Like I have less desire for something like that because it kind of takes away a little bit. In a way. I feel like it from that original tone and feeling of it, but if it's just like updating the technology. Mostly okay with that. yeah, I'm okay with it being in high definition, Although whenever they have a visual effects shot that's left in low resolution because they didn't want to redo the effects or there's a stock shot of an airplane or something, and that's not the same resolution that stands out. I understand. Buffy. They really screwed that one up. When they remastered it, the color grading was way, way, way off. And you can see crew members on the sides. And they just spent so little care on that one that it's caused an uproar in the Buffy community. But are you into Buffy? I've never seen it myself. I Yeah, I like Buffy. I am. I watch all the series through, and then Angel, and I've recently. There's been a few kind of book. I wouldn't say reboots, but almost like sequels. I continue the story. Like, there was a really fantastic one on Audible with a lot of the original cast was in it. Amber Benson, who's on Buffy, wrote, It was incredible. Fortunately, I only got one season. But yeah, I really I have a lot of admiration for just even like the writing in the world. I have certain it's like a certain quips to like. Like I love Buffy as a character. She's a strong, great character. But there's lot of times throughout the series that I'm like, Buffy, you're being so judgy right now. And like, I'm a Spike fan, first and foremost, which shouldn't be surprised I don't know what that means. No, it means nothing to me. Your words mean nothing then. I'm going to look this up. I get to see his picture. I think I have a theory on who you're talking about. So like, I do have a type. It's the snarky, enticing, embraces nature of vampire. So he fits that. so you're crushing on him, is that what you're saying? I mean that. But he's also just he's my favorite character. He's just a fantastic character. that guy. The blond. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, So there was a times when I was more on his side than Buffy's. I will say that. I see. So vampires, you know, supernatural, there probably could have been elements of that at times. But then there are there are like, I don't know, like, like demon hunter kind of material where I guess it depends like some of them I prefer like, you know, not just blindly killing and hunting them all. Like, okay, we can give this one a pass or we can be on the same side for this thing. But you know that I think that was one. I mean, throughout the whole thing, I didn't want her to kill any vampires. And it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there. I went to high school with a guy who worked on that show for a lot of years, and it was his, I think, his pride and joy. He did makeup effects or worked in that department, that sort of thing. Makeup was pretty fantastic. I think he actually worked on The X-Files, too. Yeah, I think he won a Grammy and a Grammy. He won a Grammy. He was so good. Yeah, He won an Emmy for a Cohen an Emmy for some makeup effects. But I don't remember the episode. But anyway, Small world. Doctor Who Season six Episode 11 The God Complex. The Doctor, Amy and Rory become trapped in a hotel of horrors, unable to escape and unable to find the TARDIS. The doctor must save as many people as he can, taking many twists and seeing his own worst fear. According to the Internet movie database. The show's opening gave me a decent overview of what that universe is and its rules. But for those uninitiated like myself, TARDIS stands for time and relative dimension in space. It's that big blue British looking phone booth slash police public call box that is the fictional time machine and spacecraft hybrid in Doctor Who essentially is a mad man in a box. There you go. full disclosure, it took me quite a while and a lot of TV watching to find the right episode for Steve to tackle in this podcast episode, partially due to needing to a strong standalone horror episode where you could go in with limited or no knowledge of the character's journey and world up until this point, and still experience the chapter of the story fully. I was also looking at purely horror focused material initially until I turned to the possibility of a Non-Horror show with an episode that dove into eerie, unsettling atmosphere, like in the God complex. While I only answered the Hoovers in the past few years, I became a fast and ferocious fan. I'm very particular about sci fi, most of it not being my ideal story vehicle. But Doctor Who is the exception for me is really exhilarated, enamored and connected with me and the lasting way being that Steve is a sci fi fan and had never experienced new who, and while it is a largely whimsical, hopeful show, it's monsters and lingering darkness are constants as well. I became a bit determined to find the right episode and the Hoovers for us to dissect. And this seemed to be fitting, you mentioned once in an earlier podcast an episode of Doctor Who about Vincent Van Gogh was there a reason you didn't go with that one? I think that would have appealed to me. Being an artist myself, you should definitely watch it. It's fantastic. I did rewatch it when I was. I rewatched a number of the, I guess, spookier episodes of Doctor Who, and there's a lot like a lot of the episodes contain monsters and battling them, so there's some inherent darkness. But Doctor Who is a largely whimsical, hopeful, colorful show, I think as a whole. So it's a kind of bridges, you know, with that darkness. And I watched a lot of episodes like that. One has a monster and there darkness that they're battling and there is a definitely overbearing creepiness to it for, you know, elements of of who the monster is and why. But yeah, ultimately it's emotional and beautiful and tragic and dark. And I think the overall tone was a little brighter then felt fitting to cover for this show. And especially I was really trying to find one that had like either suspense or area foreboding atmosphere that kind of dug more into some essential themes of horror. So this one that I was between a few but ultimately chose this one, partially because it seemed to have that like its roots a little deeper into, you know, fear and suspense and the setting I thought might appeal to you with the old classic haunting, mysterious location. Well, I think. I think you did good. Well, I did it only my 10th try. Yeah, we got there eventually. Now It was a bit odd to me that you would pick a sci fi show here, whereas that's more my camp. I chose a vampire tale. Which is more your camp. Not sure if that was a semi conscious decision. Each of us going with the most likely candidate to appeal to the other. But perhaps more puzzling is how each of us have gone this long without significant exposure to that other material. as valid. Yeah, I think again, like I as it not being my go to I've you know really come to love Doctor Who and yeah I think partially with you mentioning that you had never seen it I, I didn't want to find a episode that you're like ooh this is good, I'm in, let's go into the fandom. But also having one that had solid, you know, either horror elements or roots or at least a creepiness to it to, to be fitting for the show. the God complex gives us a very compelling, classic horror setting each subject, finding themselves imprisoned in an eighties hotel full of personalized paranoias and fears with no real inclination on how to check out with their life intact. The hotel itself is seemingly alive and praying, morphing and changing based on its victims and how ripe they are for its appetite. likewise the evil itself is shown to have many forms, not only the illusions used to terrorize and taunt those who face their doors, but in the monster itself, at the heart of the hotel, it goes even deeper to the source of its motivations, revealing even more of the face and intent on the darkness, commanding it all The God Complex airing on September 17th, 2011, stars Matt Smith as the doctor. Arthur Darvill, Darvill as Rory and Karen Gillan as Amy. I had first seen Karen Gillan in Oculus, which came out two years later, a film I rather admire, but I didn't know she was Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, which says something about her excellent acting. I suppose she has gone on to have quite the career with 77 acting credits thus far from Jumanji to the Avengers franchises. I do love her. She's fantastic I think I actually did watch Oculus first as well as it was about it was during the pandemic, I think around 2020 when I just binged all of Doctor Who. But yeah, she is fantastic and of course enjoyed her in here as always. And of course I'm a big fan of Matt Smith as well as the Doctor. Beer itself is both at the core of horror and is a deeply embedded human response, even to the less fantastical. But still formidable foes in everyday life. having something that appears to cultivate fears looking into its victim's subconscious and personal core feelings is both invasive and terrifying. It challenges you to stay strong and face your fears, but at the same time lets you know that won't be enough feeling even more daunting and maddening. there is an interesting correlation and discussion of fear and faith and how to combat fear. Using that faith or belief in something, whether it's religion, principles, another person, or even in ourselves. It is our shield that defense and strength than being contorted into a weakness can be shattering. As a newbie, I feel I should refrain from asking a great many questions like Why is this name Doctor Who? Why is he routinely replaced with different actors? Or What's that gadget he keeps blaring and so forth. My only prior exposure to Doctor Who was watching a marathon of old episodes from the seventies or eighties at my Aunt Jean's house when I was a kid, I remember a bunch of scenes with kind of R2-D2, like robots chasing and shooting lasers at our heroes. Despite not understanding the significance of most of it, I'm sure I was still riveted for many years after that. I wondered what the hell the name was of that show I had watched way back then. At least 15 years went by before concluding, it may have been Doctor Who, after seeing a picture of those robot things again, have you watched any of the episodes from the sixties, seventies or eighties? I have not, and I it's something I think I should probably try and see how it kind of connects with me. I've heard kind of mixed feelings, obviously, total respect to the origins and what they created. I have heard, you know, with some fans that feel like the the newer series kind of connection is maybe more relatable in some ways. But I don't know. I was looking even in looking into what were supposed to be some of the, I don't know, more gothic or scary episodes. There were some from the original series that came up that did seem intriguing, but since you had dabbled in that one a little bit and not at all in the newer one, I decided to focus on the newer series. But yeah, I mean, I'd give a try and and see. I guess it depends kind of the subject matter because one thing I think it's partially just like the spirit of the doctor and the tone and this fiercely imaginative and curious and it's very it's full of like a lot of heart and emotion, but ultimately, like optimism and hope. That's kind of just like exhilarating. So again, that's like who? The doctor is at its core, kind of. So I would assume that that would be there from the beginning. But I think one of the things that initially got me to like get into it a little bit is because like each episode, like there are episodes that are like 3000 years in the future in space. And then there are some events in Van Gogh, and then there's some that, you know, the Queen of England and even more modern day England. And each episode is kind of its own thing. So if you have like sort of one creature or monster or genre that's a little less, you know, up your alley than the next one, you know, might very well be one that's, you know, very specific to you and speaks to you more. So I don't know, maybe that's the case with the original one, maybe it's not. But I guess I've been a little hesitant in if it will manage to engage me the same way, but there's no harm in trying, so I might as well check it out. Well, for me, my primary reluctance about watching the show stems from a consideration that because it has been on for so many decades, it feels too daunting to sort it all out or even know where to begin. And if I like it, how much of a time investment do I really want to devote to watching all that at the expense of so much other content out there? I think it's worth it. It's a pretty, pretty fantastic show. Yeah, I think I'm going to I'm going to give it a shot for sure. But I'm curious about those older ones because I kind of like those. Those airs is a feel to the seventies, the eighties. Each decade has its own distinct. Yeah, I know. Look to it and I don't know, maybe I'll end up seeing some of those same episodes I watched my Aunt Sheen's house and might re invigorate me as to what was so intriguing to me in the first place. Yeah, I did one of them that I don't remember the episode name right now, but there was, you know, in looking of some of over time, all of the more horror elements in Doctor Who, there was one that seemed pretty reminiscent of like classic horror, like even sort of universal monster based and experimentation and things like that. So yeah, there might be something very up your alley there. I'll definitely plan on checking it out too. And my hope is that there's still a balance, I think, of the sci fi and whether it be darker elements or emotion or adventure like it was. I think the newer ones are a very good mix of a lot of different things. So yeah, I guess, I guess we'll see if it gives me that same thrill and adventure. While there is some very haunting, bleak and even suffocating terror at play here, the tone balances it out with the creepy but bizarre and imaginative alongside snappy, witty and whimsical finding hope even among hopelessness. It's genuinely eerie and tackles deep themes of fear, strength and flaws both in humanity and even those in the doctor. It's a fine balance between making something too silly or all darkness, but it nails it even with the fun flair, one of a kind characterizations and a wondrous nature. At times, it doesn't lose the genuine suspense and fear that drives the episode and links the Boris Hotel tenants together. This did have a distinctly low budget feel to it. The monster costumes bordered on comically bad, especially that gorilla at the very beginning, which was supposed to be terrifying. Yet there can be a definite charm and even delight to such imperfections. These often lend a certain character to a show or film. when you're on board with the story and characters, One could turn a blind eye or is just okay with such shortcomings. We can suspend our disbelief enough because we want to like it. It might even make us root for it. More like the down and out boxer or the undeserved misfortune of the penniless orphan. the reverse, however incorporating expensive high production value while lacking good story and characters will never garner that same enduring effect, a lesson Hollywood seems doomed to never learn. Yeah, I think with, you know, maybe because it was so, so many fears that they were representing. I don't know. Maybe, they did max out on their budget. I can't say it's something I like. Really notice in the episode of like, wow, these are a lot of cheap monsters here. But I think there's also it was an element of paranoia and like, I think a lot of them were kind of based on like childhood fears. So maybe it was an intent of like it being okay if it was like not very realistic or silly because there's things that can be very creepy when you're a kid that like as an adult, you're like, that's pretty comical. I can't believe I was scared of that, You know, I don't know, maybe just to throw that out there and give them some credit. Well, that's a good theory. But that initial shot of the gorilla coming out of the bedroom or the bathroom in the hotel room, it was cringeworthy. And I think if I showed it to you right now, you'd go, yeah, okay. See, I see what you mean. But my point is I give it leeway and I'm okay with it. And there's something kind of oddly cute even about it. And whenever I see somebody that doesn't necessarily have all the resources, but they're trying real hard, I'm okay with it and all is forgiven. Now, you kind of mentioned like, be already knowing or loving the characters kind of can potentially make you more forgiving. So how? I'm just curious, how was your connection? Understanding opinions, really. I guess it's the doctor and his companions that are the core characters here. Everyone else is newly introduced. But yeah, how did the kind of the characters resonate with you? Well, I didn't know who they were. There was sufficient back story described by Guillen. character about being a little girl and somehow him taking her under his wing, So I got the gist of it. And I just took for granted that because I hadn't watched any other episodes, that I wasn't going to understand exactly everything about their backstories. The guy was more of enigma to me. I didn't know who the the guy was played by Rory. Well, that is Rory And that's he is one of the companions. So he's he's dating Amy. I gather they've had a lot of adventures in time and space with the doctor. Okay, well, I figured the show probably goes in cycles where they adopt certain characters for a season or a bunch of episodes. And then at the end of this one, they part ways, it seems. So I didn't know the usual procedure for this series, but I felt like they had good chemistry and they had some history together and it didn't feel awkward. I didn't I didn't really pick up on the fact that they were dating. I had no idea that until you said that. So maybe that point was a bit missing. But yeah, I mean, I'm talking about how one forgives flaws because they're really into something. And here I am never having seen the show until just now. Yet I still felt that sort of rooting interest for it. So it was doing something right. I don't know if it would really hold up today. I think in even the last 12, 13 years since that came out, the standards for production value have gone way up. And we're seeing in streaming series effects that are certainly up there with the caliber of major motion pictures that are released today. So maybe it's a British thing. Maybe they just have less resources in Britain because it's a BBC thing and they have to stretch their budgets. But it kind added to it for me, it's like the old original Star Trek series are kind of campy and the sets were a bit cheesy, but everybody is deeply in love with all that stuff. Yeah, definitely. Obviously it's good to be taken into these worlds are adventures and have them seem real, but I definitely the main, I think appeal is the doctor and the different companions. I kind of it's it's definitely a very character rich show. So there's a certain spirit, I think, that really connects to a lot of people. But yeah, it's more of course there might be certain, you know, adventures or things that they do that you're like, this is really up my alley. But yeah, I think it's I think it's more about that kind of connection or Enigma or fascination with the characters that they build. So yeah, hopefully they connected with you a bit. At least they did. Now, anyone who has ever met you, Kelsey, knows or learns very quickly that you are a Harry Potter fanatic. You're crazy for Quidditch. barmy for Butterbeer. Likewise, is there something about the Britishness of Doctor Who that lends a greater appeal to you? If it were an American based show, do you think you would still like it? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I like British things and even just the London setting and that they have a lot of episodes where yeah, they it's definitely a lot in British culture even, you know, going through time and different, you know, like there's episodes with like Queen Elizabeth and, you know, different parts of their history. But I don't think it being British is like, why I like it. I think more than anything it's the spirit for one to tie back into Harry Potter. It is the most Ravenclaw thing I think I've ever experienced in my life. it is just which, you know, if you if you don't know I'm Ravenclaw, you probably don't know me in real life because I use it. But yeah, there was a lot I think when I first wanted to watch the show again, I was on the fence because specifically things that take place in space, I'm usually like never into even if it's like a drama or, you know, whatever it might be or just not as into it. There's, there's always like a little bit of a detachment, I think even in the language, a lot of times for me. So I was a little on the fence for years if I would like this show. But there was like certain quotes that I would hear that would just like speak to you like a part of my spirit, where after a while I'm like, okay, I think there's something here that that would really, you know, connect to me. And I think more than anything, what I love about Doctor Who is it just has this like infectious, uplifting spirit There were a few quotes that I think initially got me to be curious about it. One example of the Ravenclaw ness. There was one episode this is during David Tennant's doctor where he says, You want weapons, We're in a library. Books are the best weapons in the world. So, for example, and this is another one that I think speaks to like the overall spirit of it a lot. I am and always will be the optimist. The hoper of far flung hopes and the dreamer of improbable dreams. Now we talk a lot about a lot of like grim entrapping in things within the horror context on this show. But like at my core, I'm definitely this dreamer, optimist, believing spirit. So I like I like how there's always, you know, monsters and foes. And I think it tackles a lot of things, flaws or darkness and and humanity. And even though the doctor is alien, he is kind of obsessed with humanity. He, he and that's they, they even kind of go into it a little bit in this episode of with this whole God complex thing is a little bit pride in wanting a companion or human to maybe worship is a little, you know, a little too far. But it's partially his own loneliness. And usually he gets to a point of knowing these humans who are with him, and he goes on these adventures forward and he ends up, you know, having this, you know, connection and emotional bonds to at one point either they will be done with their adventure and want to have some stability and see their family and live a normal life or die are usually the the two things, you know, And I guess, you know, for context for you, I don't know if he's old. Okay. So his lifespan is much larger than those that he is creating these emotional bonds with. So it's a little bit selfishness that he knows at some point he'll have to leave them and at some point he could be endangering them or sending them to their death. And he has moments of being like, okay, I'm just going to be a lone traveler, but that's you So just craves human companionship that he'll he'll always go back to it. So it's a little bit of a battle within him. But even it the show kind of tackles a lot of whether I guess aliens and Darkness just, you know, any life forms as a whole, like how there can be this darkness and depravity there. But it's like in the doctor's eyes, it's always worth fighting for or persevering against. So I think it's more that spirit, both the adventure and the knowledge and and just like the undying hope in the doctor that I think I love most about it. So that could I could be an American who could do those things, too. Wow. That's that's that's a lot for one character. I didn't even know he was an alien. I thought he was just, you know, a human. Maybe. Maybe he's another form that he's just taking on human form now. And for our benefit. Or is it is he actually looks like that he has different forms and that's partially with the different actors and relating to call it regeneration has different life spans which is also another thing I really love because it kind of speaks to like different chapters and even a person's life like they're all the same person. But there's different versions of this doctor in each one. He's like evolving and expanding while still having the previous part as a part of him. So it's just kind of like an interesting sort of beautiful thing of of growth. But it's still like holding on to your roots. They have an alien in this episode, and I didn't notice any sort of translation device. He just spoke perfect English. Is there something that justifies that in the show? Yeah, there are certain episodes where like a character will be like, how? Or even like French. There's one where that's sort of like a portal thing where the characters are there, but they're talking to someone who's in France and it automatically, you know, is English. And they're like, How am I understanding them? And then another character says, well, it's basically the the doctor and his kind of tools will automatically because he can understand, like pretty much every language ever created in time and space. Well, I wouldn't expect them to have to explain that every time they had an alien. Yeah. Star Trek has their universal, which apparently do that as well, but doesn't justify why their mouths are moving differently. But it's a conceit and we we go along with it as the audience because it just makes things a lot simpler to follow, I guess is also like this manufactured alien portal and the intent and what it wants is for people. I mean, if they don't understand, maybe they'll be extra terrified. But it's a little bit of trying to, you know, dig into their fears and the other things that that brings out. So I would think that likewise with if the TARDIS can translate languages, then this device could make sure everyone as well. could well be getting back to the Britishness. It For some reason, I've always held a very powerful fascination with and affinity for all things British, especially any period before 20 years ago, I even toyed with the idea of us performing this entire podcast with British accents. boy, I'd be a mess. probably best we didn't. Yeah. What I love about this show's premise is that it allows for almost anything to be possible. They can go anywhere in the universe to, any time they want to, with any mix of characters that will make for a fun story. It could be a blend of anything it wants to be with notes of science fiction, comedy, adventure, horror and fantasy. The variety this provides lends to endless possibilities while still its own voice. No surprise, they haven't run out of ideas since the show's inception in 1963. in conclusion, I have to say I quite enjoyed this Zu Koski. The humor really clicked with me. It had of mystery and I don't know if I would call it scares, but certainly dark content while still being fun for the whole family. You may have awakened, awoke and awoke to a new fan of Doctor Who. All right. Did it. What did you think? Like the overall, like atmosphere and theme concept? Did that all kind of intrigue you or how did that work for you? Have you ever watched the Back Rooms series on YouTube? Well, it has to do with this colony of how you explain it, but it's like a bunch of empty rooms in office spaces and so forth, which has this eerie quality to it. And there's a word for it I can't remember. But it's this feeling when an area, for example, has been abandoned like you go to an empty amusement park or something, there's some sensation that makes you feel creepy. Yeah. And this hotel captured that. It felt like there are signs that life has been there and it's been there for a long time, but it's like a different dimension. There were clues that. Lots of species have been there, and I found that fascinating and creepy. Like I wanted to be in that space while also being combined with that classic haunted hotel vibe. So I really enjoyed the environment and the atmosphere and. There's a feeling I remember that my mom watches a lot of British procedural crime shows and there's a video ish kind of quality to the productions, especially when they're done on a stage. And even though this is maybe decades after what she watches, there's still a weird sort of video ish quality that speaks to the Britishness of production to me, which I like. I don't know why maybe it's a nostalgia thing, but it had a lot of layers that really clicked with me I think it was a good companion piece to The X-Files episode in that there was humor, but it wasn't necessarily all out comedy, and I think this makes for a good double feature. Yeah, it definitely wasn't initially like my goal of finding something that kind of mirrored the episode that you had picked, and I think we did try to pick something that was in, you know, shows that we both love that the others hadn't seen. But we also know what each other like. So vampires and aliens in a creepy, abandoned hotel, you know, makes sense. But yeah glad that glad that you enjoyed it and hopefully will be a future movie and Also, one correction I'm not that big of a fan of Quidditch. I'm not very sports. See, even in the magical world, It's for me, it seemed like a set piece that is just there to add like an exciting moment because the pacing required it. But I never really felt much 40 that I just still honest in how the fuck you play it. But Your point is well taken. Yes. You'll find me on the restricted section of the library. Not at the Watch. If you would like to join our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, subscribe now and give this podcast a like and be sure to comment your wretched thoughts below. Keep our podcast suffering on by finding it in your cold, black withered to support us on Patreon. A link to our PayPal is also below for one time donations of any amount. It was nice knowing you