Dissecting Hocus Pocus vs. Hocus Pocus 2 | Spoiler-free Review

Hello, horrorphiles. In this episode, we dissect the 1993 film, Hocus Pocus, comparing and contrasting it with its 2022 sequel, Hocus Pocus 2 on Disney+. This dissection will be spoiler-free.

Hocus Pocus: “A teenage boy named Max and his little sister move to Salem, where he struggles to fit in before awakening a trio of diabolical witches that were executed in the 17th century,” according to The Internet Movie Database.

This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.

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Transcript

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Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining the anatomy of fear and film, television and literature. In this Halloween special, We'll review 1993’s Hocus Pocus with perspectives on the 2022 sequel. This dissection will be spoiler free. I'm writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. In our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, if you will. I will. And we hope you will subscribe for more, won't you? A teenage boy named Max and his little sister moved to Salem, where he struggles to fit in before awakening a trio of diabolical witches that were executed in the 17th century, according to the Internet Movie Database. Hearing that, you'd never know. This was a lighthearted, family friendly comedy. Yet this is pure 1990s Disney, wholesome and perhaps, dare I say, corny, but in a good way. It's pretty goofy, though endearing at the same time. It's charming and twisted, with its share of genuinely funny and heartwarming moments. Hocus Pocus has been synonymous with Halloween for me for as long as I can remember. It perfectly blends the infectious, childlike wonder of the wickedly fantastical while diving into the darker roots and ethereal power of the holiday, showcasing the resurrected creatures who utilize the veil of the living and the dead. Being at its thinnest, shattering the perceived safety net of modern day Halloween, full of spooky festivities, treats, and make believe. I've watched this film at least once a year, if not more, since it came out in 1993 as a first comer to the witchy Wonder. What was your experience like? I would say I was much more surprised in a good way than anticipated. I thought it was going to be more of, feminist, sort of, like sisterhood kind of a thing that would not appeal to my more manly demographic. But it was actually, quite neutral and, a fun film for the whole family. Like, anybody can enjoy this, and I wasn't bored at any point. I wasn't annoyed at any point. I wasn't checking the time every few minutes. And all those in themselves are thumbs ups for me and very rare, because I tend to have a very short attention span and not really a short fuze, but a low tolerance level for things that just aren't working. And this this worked for me. Great. Awesome. On last year's Halloween special, we discussed the missed opportunity for many horror films not just setting a film on Halloween as an inconsequential backdrop, but truly representing and exploring the inherent darkness and delights of the macabre holiday. For many horror fans, Halloween was an early, safe space that sparked and guided us on our fascination with what lied in the shadows and invited us to celebrate that even if through the facade of masks, decorations, and light hearted treats and fun. While of course this is more spooky light as I like to call it, the film dives into the varying, complex spirit of Halloween from many different perspectives, evolving over time. While never truly losing its pagan roots. Additionally, its Halloween setting offers great significance beyond the esthetic and fun vibes. it is only on All Hallows Eve night. The Sanderson sisters can come back, tying into the significance and power the night has always had for witches and the connections mortals have found with the dead. On this night. After all, Halloween originated from Celtic pagan holiday Samhain, also known as the Witches Sabbath, a night to welcome in New Harvest and honor the dark season. Irish and Scottish pagan cultures also dressed up in costumes, singing to the dead and leaving cakes as an offering. In the days just before Samhain, along with a tradition of pranks and mischief that were blamed on fairies, sounding quite similar to even our modern day practice of trick or treating. So really, a witches story is the most fitting way to honor Halloween's roots, while depicting what it has transcended to and modern day culture among a battle of wits and power. This film even contains a musical number. And in a film that could easily get away with stretching things to include a spontaneous outburst of song and dance, it's surprisingly manages to originate this in a realistic way without feeling contrived. This impressed me, and I hate both singing and dancing and fun. Wow. It's simple. Like some people really don't like musicals or it seems inorganic to them, but I rarely hear people say they just don't like singing and dancing at all. The fun part doesn't surprise you, but yeah, I liked grease and I think there was 1 or 2 others, like maybe The Wizard of Oz or something, but I haven't really exposed myself to much in that realm. Because I'm a man and I'm heterosexual and we don't tend to go for these sorts of things. know, appreciate expression. It's not in our genes. I'm sorry. Sorry. Not sorry. preferences. wasn't there. Oh. I liked, The Nightmare Before Christmas. That was. That was a musical in a way. So, Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'm not that way at all. Maybe I take back everything I just said. Let's need more. More musical numbers. Yeah, it depends on the context and how old I was or whatever. There's. There's a lot of different factors. So I'm not going to just categorically deny an entire genre because of a preconceived notion about, stereotypes and manliness. All right. Speaking of, in the Halloween dance scene, did you feel the party was literally possessed to dance all night until the Sanderson's spell ended? that just a short span of two hours would have killed me because I don't like going to dances. I hated that in high school and all the rest of it. But to be condemned to do that until you literally drop dead is probably one of the worst ways to perish, in my view. And you do forget about that. Oh, they're probably still dancing right now until they show that little clip, near the credits. So, guess more specifically, did you think they were literally possessed or. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that never that never connected for me until recently. I think, I think it never truly dawned on me in 30 some years of watching this film, but I always thought the adults of the town were all just living their best life and feeding off all the intoxicating endorphins of dance and Halloween. Yeah, there's. I feel like in the film school and there's, book adaptation where it's the mindset, I think, and intent is a little bit more clear. Like, I we will hold off a little bit getting too much into the sequels so far, but, it's definitely more clear. Like I think they even say like, literally dance until you die. So I don't know. I guess for me, maybe because watching it initially as a kid and it just didn't dawn on me. So then in Rewatches it just didn't dawn. But yeah, for the longest time I'm just like, wow. They just like really just really embracing and just so consumed with this Halloween party. I get it, it looks like a lot of fun. But yeah, I don't I don't I don't think it connected that it was they were literally under a spell. No, I caught that the very first time. that surprises me for somebody who's seen the movie so many times, like, every single year, that. That would never dawn on you. But yeah, I have no words on that. It's like nothing in their eyes. I, you know, not in me, like glazing over or in trance. And then like. Yeah, like, yes, we know that there's a little bit of in nature, it seems like more, I guess in the first film, it seemed to me more the children they were able to put under their spell through this. And yes, in that dancing, they are saying, cover your ears, don't listen. But I guess I never like, saw that moment of like, oh, they're basically zombies under their control now. Well, I didn't see them as possessed. I just thought they were under a spell. And they're being basically ordered through magic to do that. And were, unaware of what was happening, like being under hypnosis or something. But, yeah, clearly the Sanderson sisters just wanted them to be happy because dancing creates happy endorphins. No. Despite its 1993 release and near classic status for whatever reason, I never saw the film until just last week, Despite its absence from my youth, it still unwittingly manages strong feelings of nostalgia by virtue of its unmistakable 1990s vibe. Perhaps not unlike other works of that era, including The Addams Family films and those of Tim Burton. I think it also kind of, captures that mix of the sort of childlike wonder and just the fun and dressing up and costumes and the like. Just that festive nature of Halloween was still adding some horror and terror element in it. So maybe it kind of like it pulls you into what was fun about Halloween like as a kid, but still having some some stakes. It marries very well the macabre with the childhood fun that is Halloween and a movie that takes place on Halloween. I find this film difficult to review for two reasons. First, it's way easier to pick apart movies that clearly don't work, though certainly not devoid of issues, this film is wholly successful at what it sets out to achieve. Secondly, where I do come upon a critique, I feel like a douche bag for bashing such an enjoyable and whimsical piece. One must consider that this is intended to be silly and for kids, and so should not bear the bloodbath level of scrutiny I would normally unleash. All that to say, I liked it. I've always been a fan of the Fish out of Water Old world meets the modern world brand of comedy, especially when powered by a supernatural spark point. As we get here, there's a certain marvel among the humor, viewing something so familiar to our world with the eyes of an outsider seeing something they only know how to comprehend. In the lens of a long forgotten world. Hocus Pocus handles this masterfully, with great cleverness and tongue in cheek fun and fact considering I first watched this film when I was four, it might even be where my fondness for the niche style of comedy originated. I also feel like this comedy is something that hit and connected as I continue to watch this film into adulthood, and a major driving force for making it such a rewatchable gem. Indeed, the writers here took full advantage of any fish out of water opportunities. A high point of the comedy with the 1600s, which is confusing mundane, modern things with their outdated and macabre sensibilities. The cast nails the balance of going big and having fun with their roles while still giving us dynamic, nuanced, largely realistic characters where they could have easily been so over the top comedic that it became cheesy one note, and unrealistic really. So many moments almost should read as over the top, but with the writing cast, direction, and tone coming together, it just works. There are so many standouts here, both individually and in the dynamics of the actors working off one another. But no question, the Sanderson sisters alone make this film as iconic and memorable as it is. Are witches are starred by Bette Midler, Kathy Najimy, as well as Sarah Jessica Parker years before sex in the city, playing a more goofy slapstick role. And by the way, I've never seen a set of false teeth fits so perfectly and adds so much to a character as with Bette Midler here. And though she does not play a witch in the film, the actress who plays Danny, the little girl, struck me as coincidentally having the most perfect real life. Which sounding name Thora Birch. Doesn't that just give off total witch vibes? Thora Birch. Yeah, I definitely, wand one the Lord made of birch trees. Yeah, I think it has a very woodsy which sort of feel. It's like a name. J.K. Rowling would have come up for a character. yeah. Definitely. Thora Birch is a delight here, and a great representation of the childlike fascination of witches and Halloween thrills, while still having ample fear among her guts, sass and nerve. She also gives us some of the best tender humanity, especially with her relationship with Thackery Binx, one of the more endearing relationships of the film. The teenage love interest Allison, played by Vanessa Shaw. Struck me as a dead ringer for a young Hilary Swank. I can see that Bette Midler offers such a fun filled intensity to Winifred, bringing the right amount of sinister and cheeky snark with dashes of vulnerability and melodrama, making her an electrifying and vivacious villain. Sarah Sanderson is easily Sarah Jessica Parker is best role and performance every second she's on the screen, you can't help but revel in how glorious she is. Losing herself in the character and clearly having the time of her life with it. She's playful, flirty, wonderfully unaware and exuberant in such a lovable way. Kathy Najimy as Mary Sanderson offers the perfect quirky, matter of fact touch. Largely, she is there to be the supportive sister, but there is a hunger and gleeful deviousness in her that powers even the smallest reactions. of course, Doug Jones in this and every role he touches is, well, we're celebrating, and the film greatly benefits from his performance here. His creature work is truly one of a kind. He nails the jagged, foreign, stiff moments of a misunderstood living zombie unearthed perfectly. But furthermore, he adds, the subtle humanity and fire that makes the character so memorable. For a scene with the cordial man dressed as the devil passing out Candy and his wife, We are treated with uncredited cameos by Gary Marshall and Penny Marshall, who, uncomfortably enough, we're brother and sister. In real life, Gary Marshall started his career writing for The Lucy Show and The Dick Van Dike Show before developing other classics like The Odd Couple, Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy, and countless other shows and films. Penny Marshall played Laverne in Laverne and Shirley and went on to direct big with Tom Hanks and A League of Their Own, also with Hanks. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. They were uncredited, but yeah, definitely a very fun seeing that just works really well. And last but not least, this film features some of the best cat acting or acting, if you will, I've ever seen. I have no idea how they got such precise and perfectly cued performances out of what are widely understood to be the dicks of the animal kingdom. But it was Academy Award worthy or Academy Award worthy, if you will. Largely filmed in Salem and the surrounding area, the film never ceases to capture my wanderlust as it brings us into the picturesque Halloween haven of Salem. The quaint, largely preserved historic village represents witchcraft, its history, and a true embracing of Halloween and all things spooky. The bright, crisp, colorful orange and red fall foliage among the utter celebration of Halloween brings the spirit alive, no matter where or when you are watching. I particularly love just how enthusiastic, immersed and prideful the whole town is. Even high school students in class, who normally would be far less attentive, are very invested in the Sanderson history and the legacy of Halloween. While there are some interiors done on soundstages, as well as the occasional California based location, the vast majority of scenes were filmed in Salem and offered their own history beyond the film, many which are still there. One notable was actually in Marblehead, Massachusetts, where over 600 revolutionary soldiers died. And there's always something about that lingering history to a land where supernatural things are said to improve. So I thought that was kind of fitting. You can't buy that kind of production value if it's actually there. It's like when we did, The Innkeepers, they shot it in an actual in that was supposedly haunted and had all this history, and they didn't have to make any of it because the set was just there. It was real. So I appreciate that sort of a touch. And, I was curious if that was actually shot there or not. And you just answered my question. Yeah. The vast majority of the locations, the denizens house, Allison's house, the old Salem Town Hall where they have the dance, the high school. Let me see. Oh, yeah. Then kind of like the outdoor park scenes and, that, that kind of outdoor area was, you know, with probably a few modern touches, but overall was fairly as is since the 1700s. Well, I was watching Halloween John Carpenter's the other night and it was shot in Southern California. You can tell there's palm trees in the distance, but it's, it's supposed to be where like Midwest or something. Illinois. Yeah. Yeah. So I think when you watch a film long enough, you can start to feel like when I watched Mash as a kid, I thought, North Korea looked like that, but it's actually, what, Malibu And so you get a, a warped perception of what these locations actually feel like, and you come to associate, the Korean War with that sort of look, even though it couldn't be more different. And I think the, the it's a nice touch, especially with you, because you, you grew up watching this and you know that, you know, this is what it feels like and it's authentic. those with a keen eye will notice an abundance of Nike merchandise featured prominently throughout. It wasn't exactly subtle, but somehow added to the comedy. I think, though I'm sure unintentionally. I can't say I noticed. I mean, I definitely noticed, like the shoes they definitely reference, you know, the shoes, just because that's like a big moment. But I don't know if I have ever watched it being like, wow, someone was really into Nike when making this. you cannot unsee it. Once I pointed it out to you because once I noticed it, I watched the film twice and the second time I would see these, Nike logos just like in the bedroom prominently, just right there. I'm like, You see that a lot with Coca Cola? that's what it took to get this movie made. Hey, no problem with that. The very ending sets up a sequel or a suggests that life still exists to continue things forward. it would take 29 years for that sequel to be realized. 2022 saw the release of Hocus Pocus two on Disney Plus. I first watch Hocus Pocus two, I had heard pretty poor audience responses. I waited until Halloween night to watch it and did so with low expectations. But I was hoping, at least for some fun and to be able to enjoy the sinister sisters in action again. I was pleasantly surprised and rather loved it. Feeling it hit all the right notes you would expect while bridging into something new, revisiting it several times now, and being aware of opinions less favorable than mine. I can see how it is a little bit more silly, and overall not quite as stark or smart as the original. But I think all in all, the comedy heart and gothic flair are still there, just giving a wider lens offering for the chance for characters old and new to evolve. I didn't hate it. It wasn't obviously and immediately horrible to me. I do feel it lacked the easy, natural charm and wit of the first one. I quite liked the first 12.5 minutes, especially with the Witch Trio back in the 1600s as little girls. However, they are set up here as basically good but misunderstood. While this doesn't really display itself or pay off later much in their older selves, it does serve to add some rooting interest for the witches, at least the adult versions, though not appearing until 28 minutes in. The 1663 setting takes a little more into the early hysteria, religious fears and misunderstood nature of witches, encouraging choice and empowerment without rewriting the Sanderson's and their survivalist self-involved, predatory actions. I also loved how it tackled modern day Salem and New Age magic, both the real connected affirmations of making your own magic and the tourist baiting theatrics with the elements of history and fiction, and are woven. As much as I loved how pro Halloween and a cult, everyone was the original Hocus Pocus, even in a town like Salem, It was a little bit more realistic for there to be skeptics and high schoolers who were indifferent, or even those who thought the occult was weird and unsettling. Even with this, it also showcases different types those who pull magic and intent from the earth, and those who pull it from the devil representing the old and the new. The light in the dark. And so it depicts a wider lens of witchcraft, showing that it isn't inherently dark like many of the stereotypes still hold. I think the biggest issue many had with this film is the ending, with the sisters realizing the value of their bonds was more important than personal gain or power. Many wanted a darker ending. I didn't feel this was out of place at all and added satisfying depth. They were still power hungry and on a murder and revenge hunt for the majority of the film, so it's not as if they change them that drastically. As mentioned, I know some people hate musical numbers, but personally I absolutely love them. Sure, the musical numbers in the original were a bit more gothic and ethereal among the cheeky showmanship and the sisters clearly loving, raising their voices and channeling their energy for the sake of a good show with a dash of mind control. But I think they worked in the sequel. I loved how they acknowledged them, seemingly performing for themselves and putting a literal spell on nearby victims to force them to watch and even do their bidding. Through this hypnosis, both tied into their powers and their love of song, which does tie into the origins of Samhain as well. It's remarkable how similar and recognizable the witches look after 29 years, having lost little pep in their step at her current age. However, the way Kathy Najimy holds her mouth crooked as she did in the original makes it look now like she's had a stroke, which makes me feel kind of sad or something, Oh well. She was still so great, I loved her. Her connection with the Roombas was an emotional tale. Yeah, Yeah, I think even like the scene the more modern day Salem, because yes, it was somewhat modernized in 93, but it's also a place that they've made a point to keep historic, like just its history is such a big part of it and kind of acknowledging the darkness and fear and history of that, but also these, kind of finding a way to kind of embrace and and celebrate, I guess, being different and, you know, these Halloween roots. But, I think, yeah, in recent years it's become, yeah, more of a spectacle and even just the kind of new age perception and being such a tourist heavy town, like it's just this tiny village and especially during Halloween season, just gets completely overrun with tourists and, yeah. So I think they kind of played with a lot of those modern changes and then just our characters, similar to the original, just being smart and cunning and thinking, okay, they care about youth and beauty. This is a way we can escape. And really what our modern day, you know, beauty standards would look like. And, I don't know, just playing with that, I thought offered a lot of good comedy and was really fun. It aligns with the characters nicely. I think. Have you ever been to Salem? No. It's like dream every time, especially the beginning of Hocus Pocus, I put it on and I'm like, I need to be there. But yeah, it's it's definitely on the, the dream list vacations. But, yeah, I guess I've heard like, more early October isn't too bad, but I, I've been I don't, you know, connected with certain certain small businesses and Salem and things like that. And I'll, and I'll just say warnings. Please do not all come this time of year where like a village of 5000 and we're overrun. And, you know, please make it easier for us to, kind of manage all this. So. Yeah, everyone, I think it's become almost like Halloween Town, you know, just this, this town that kind of represents and celebrates this, this, spirit and life, you know? Funny how, an almost amusement park atmosphere would crop up around such horrific events through life events. But, I suppose it's a good thing you're turning something positive out of something that was bad. Something good's coming out of it. But same time, it does make one question one's own integrity or sense of, right and wrong to be so celebratory about such tragedy. Yeah, that is interesting. You know, if you're looking, people who were just ostracized and they were, whether it be that they were different or there was just this religious extremism and fear or for whatever reason, like so many other things throughout dark history is like very consistent with asylums throughout history. A lot of times it's just someone wanted to get rid of someone, you know, as simple as that. And yeah, absolutely horrific things happened. And I think a lot of it acknowledges that, like, I know they have a lot of museums of, you know, kind of in a way, I guess, a reminder of, you know, be careful of, like history repeating itself. And this is what and you honestly, I feel like that all comes from this, this fear and paranoia and not being able to, like, open your mind to other perspectives or possibilities or a lot of times if you can't, if you don't have the scientific facts or reason that you you make up these things, you know in your mind, which is where a lot of supernatural lore did come from. But even so many things modern day, anyone who's usually anyone coming from a place of hate, there's usually fear behind it, you know? So I think in a way it is a good reminder of that. And I do think it is kind of beautiful and amazing to find, like positivity and a way of celebrating and thriving through that. But I, from my understanding again, haven't been there, but from my understanding, even from people who have and have visited some of these places and, you know, just what's out there, it seems like it is sort of a combination of acknowledging the horrible things that did happen and trying to, I guess, revisit that as a little bit of like, I guess, like a don't forget or forewarning. But this is also something within human nature, like it happened at this time for these specific reasons, but something similar can always happen. We can always regress as a society. But then also finding the the fun and festive nature and certain power and thrill within Halloween and the concepts of a real which I guess well, we really got deep there, didn't we? that's all we do. That's us. In the original, our three protagonists, Max, Danny and Allison are easy enough to root for. First off, despite the cliche they're constantly cackling, bullies did generate rooting interest for our mistreated good guys from their. We root for middle class Max trying to get the hot upper class girl who was potentially way out of his league. He and his darling little sister are also strangers in a strange land, trying to fit in, enduring the undeserved misfortune of being transplanted from their home and friends in California to Salem, Massachusetts. The dynamics between each character in the original also generate drama and conflict. Well, the interplay between Max and Allison creates a romantic tension. Max and his little sister Danny have their own sibling, loves, and hates their interactions with the bullies and witches give off their own specific energies. even the cat serves as an important voice in the story and plot, while also just being a cute cat. In the sequel, on the other hand, we have three teenage girls, actually two for most of it, and among them I could not detect a single significant character trait between the three, much less anything to root for. Aside from one of the girls being a bit dorky, there's nothing really charming, endearing, or interesting about any of them. Our lead character, Becca, displays many characteristics of a Mary Sue beautiful, naturally talented, beyond reason, lacking any detectable weaknesses or flaws, and who earns none of the powers she gains or her abilities to use them. I do really enjoy some of the heart and relationships in the original film. The sisters dysfunctional yet connective dynamic is rather amazing. The unlikely bonds Danny forms are some of the strongest, both her and Binx and her and Billie. There is a fun mix of playful banter and sarcasm, but ultimately fueled by a rare connective Karen Bond, Alison and Max's relationship works, showcasing that growing hope of what seems so out of reach. Even if it takes being hunted down by vengeful witches to be able to talk to a girl. But I guess for a teenage boy, especially one feeling extra angsty and in a difficult transitional point in his youth, that is pretty accurate. I have no real problems with it, but I would definitely say the core platonic relationships and Hocus Pocus two focusing on the bonds, power and value of sisterhood is more powerful to me. for whenever it comes off as self-involved at times and often undermines her sisters there being a deeper bond and love there seems true to the characters, and I love them. Digging deeper into that, especially with the magic has a way of uniting things that ought to be together. Sentiment. I also found deeper value in the friendship of our new heroines. In the film, there's something special about reconnection of a lost friendship. The friendship between Becca and Izzy is fantastic. they're individually clever free thinkers, determined and very much beat to their own drum while still being realistic enough to have vulnerabilities and fear. They have known and been there for another most of their lives, growing into who they are with someone who intricately understands and celebrates them. I rewatched Hocus Pocus two twice prior to this podcast, the first time being with a friend who had a lot of issues with the film, to say the least, liking it much less than I did. But one gripe was that he found the romance in the first film better than the friendship between our leads. Here, I can appreciate a powerful, poetic, well crafted romance. And like I said, I think it worked well enough in the first film. But for me, a teenage crush seemingly just based on looks, with the possibility of something more among two very different people who may or may not be compatible long term compared to a decade long friendship, a deep acceptance celebration, laughing, learning and bonding doesn't compare. I think the sisterhood aspect will appeal more to women. I know you said that was something you were fearing with the first film and was happy it wasn't there, but I would feel the same if it was an affirming friendship bond around unique outcasts, largely misunderstood males to romance, and even the hope and excitement of its possibility has its appeal and value. But I actually rarely think it's more valid than other types of relationships. Now you're a bit of a romantic comedy fan. So how, I guess, like, how did the two very for you? As much as I liked the tension caused in the first film, I don't if you want to call it sexual tension, I'm calling it romantic tension between Alison and Max. It was a bit on the cheesy side to me, but it worked. It it was almost a device just to make you root for him and keep the tension going along. So in that regard, it was consistent with the rest of the feel of the film, which was a bit lighthearted and you don't take it too seriously. mentioned earlier about people being perhaps disillusioned with the sequel because the ending wasn't dark and, dealt more with, I got to be careful about not spoiling anything, but, it's more like the sisterhood aspect, the warm heartedness there. That was my favorite part of the film, frankly. And really loved that sort of, literal sisterhood in that sense. So I'm okay with, emotional relationships and, feel personally that the characters and their relationships are the foundation to any good story, even if it's Star Wars or something. You know, that's, it's got special effects or any kind of film which has perhaps even as it's a genre, Harry Potter or something that's, got in its forefront more of, environmental or world building, sort of, fantastical nature. You got to have good characters and people who, play off each other, very well. And this, that aspect, in the ending really what saved the film for me. But I didn't feel that at all with the new trio of, teenage protagonists. I didn't I felt nothing for them, but maybe mild irritation they in my mind were the one thing that really dragged the film. I, I feel like the witches, because they were written by someone else a long time ago who wrote them. Right. They were able to, bring those characteristics, those character traits forward into this film, and it was able to, stand on those legs. But everything else that was newly introduced in the film that wasn't already pre-established, even the concept of that fish out of water, scenario for the witches in modern era, nothing else really, struck a chord for me, and it might just be down to a guy thing versus a female thing, I don't know, but, I think if it worked, it should have worked universally. And, it felt a bit flat for me. Yeah, I think I could see, but like, the estranged friend, because we're spending less time with her and it's less from her perspective until it's kind of at the end and coming back into with her friends and, you know, fighting the witches, and there's just all these other bigger things going on. So I could see what you're saying about her because, yeah, we we detect less elements of who she really is. What do you care about? What are her traits? You know, I felt like I had a pretty good sense of Becca and Izzy. And again, it might have just been Phil. Like, they're probably fairly similar. So to me, and just like how I am as a person. So it might have just been like, you know, any time there's, I guess outcasts or just kind of, you know, unique in their own world, sort of not necessarily total, I guess somewhat underdog characters, but, you know, not, I guess, against the norm kind of. They have their own way and their own path and, you know, just the ethereal, weirdo centric spirit girls like, and and guys do like, the movie ParaNorman absolutely love that movie. And he's totally that character type too. So I tend to just relate to the outcast. But I also thought that they were smart and capable, and they had fears and vulnerabilities. So they weren't just like sort of these relentless like, okay, we're ready for this. Like it was still kind of alarming. But they I think they handled it in kind of like a smart, smart way while still, kind of like honoring their unique personalities. But again, I think characters, I agree, are a huge part there. There can be, you know, films or stories as a whole where, okay, there's something like the atmosphere, the story, the themes. There's just enough other really compelling things that draw you in. But more often than not, if there's not at least a couple characters that are either like, intriguing or interesting to you, even if you like, you don't necessarily have to personally like, really like them as a person. But if they're not at least interesting or connective to you in some way, then yeah, it's really easy to check out and not care about what's happening, which is definitely not a great recipe for, connected film. After immediately watching the sequel after the original, it is remarkable to witness how much filmmaking has advanced as far as image resolution standards for costumes, props, sets, and, of course, visual effects in 29 years, especially for a straight to streaming production. Despite that, I do find the modern result less gritty and more sterile. Somehow, the excessive use of CGI lends to a more artificial and less immersive experience, which feels more disappointing. I think one of the things that made the original feel so magical was its use of practical effects with minimal CGI, which was in its early days back then. It makes the magic we see feel more like classic animation, or in some way grounded in reality. And I swear they made Bette Midler's teeth in the sequel smaller and less prominent and thus less effective, which bugged me. Yeah, it's lame. Yeah, I think definitely the the newer film has a little bit more of like a glossy, artificial look. I would say. I liked the overall style. I was still kind of like enchanted and taken in, in this kind of mixture of Old world and new world. But yeah, no question, I think the original has more of a gritty rawness to it. And, yeah, it just feels like maybe like a little more authentic. And I'm always for more practical effects. Again, use, use the CGI effects when you need to, only to enhance what's there. I can't say like there was anything like super distracting, but yeah, I would say overall it looked more Disney artificial kind of like I was kind of almost reminds me a little bit of the show Once Upon a time, which I really liked, but honestly, the CGI was like like I'm like, literally nothing in this world looks real So it I still was engrossed in like the show, but it was kind of like that style where the more I guess. Like CGI and artificial looks, I can get to a point where, okay, this is cool, that this is capable, but it actually makes it seem less fantastical and true to this, this world and these authorial beings that you're trying to create. more like stage sets, soundstage, that sort of thing. Do you know if they shot the sequel in Salem as well? Not 100% sure, I think. I think at least part of it I would yeah. I'm not sure if it was like as large of a portion, Before the movie sequel, there was a book retelling of the original film with a bonus Next Generation story focusing on Max and Alison's daughter and the daughter of Jay Taylor, the bully turned witch captive from the original film. It's a worthwhile alternate, bigger view for the fans of the film, especially in offering perspectives and just a little more meta moments we had before adding more context. One of these moments was having Winifred's inner and spoken monologue during the Halloween dance of 93 offering more clarity, intent, and an inner look. There's also more insight from Max, especially leading up to him pursuing Allison and why he lights the Black Flame Candle. He isn't one note or unlikable in the film, but for me, this context added a lot more dimension to him and showcased how we don't always say or portray what we are thinking, or immediately reveal what lies within our heart and character. Jay's perspective as an adult, I think, adds another alternate perspective that's valuable. he was a misguided bully. But he was also left there for dead with no acknowledgment. Even as the years went on, having to live through the ridicule and misconceptions the rest of the town had about that night. I always feel like that look of how did this change them after the horror dissipated is always interesting. The sequel story in the book has its merits and bigger perspective, but I think overall the film school does a better job at drawing parallels and honoring the tone, characters and the world of the original while still adding fresh characters and relationship dynamics in an even more changed world. I do want to acknowledge the jubilant and fantastical music of John Debney, who, incidentally, scored one of my favorite Christmas films, elf with Will Ferrell, in addition to the first Hocus Pocus. He returned 29 years later to score the sequel. On Rotten Tomatoes, Hocus Pocus garnered a low 40% critic score, but a respectable 72% audience score. Hocus Pocus two achieved nearly the reverse, a higher 65% critic score, but much lower 47% audience score. Hocus Pocus three has been confirmed to be in development, slated for Disney Plus, with a release date as of yet unknown. 30 years and many viewings later, Hocus Pocus stands strong as an homage to All Hallows Eve of the Old and New World. Hitting the right balance of clever comedic flair, enticing thrills and chills, and compelling, dynamic heroes and villains. For many like myself, the film first hit as a nostalgic childhood favorite, but is turned into a forever Halloween staple that continues to work. What is a memorable non candy Halloween item you received while trick or treating? Ooh. I have like a really bad one. Oh okay. A little box of raisins. Now raisins for me are the thing which poison any delicious baked treat like a, chocolate chip cookie. Like, why would you fuck it up by putting raisins? Like, a very, like grandma thing to do. Like, before they made candy in her day, raisins were the candy, And so to find a little box of, sunmaid raisins, which I'm sure the good intentions behind them by whatever mom, I like. They need to be a little healthy. All this sugar it was well-meaning. Yeah, but, yeah, that's the bitter disappointment. I mean, I never had fruit. Nobody ever gave me fruit. When I was trick or treating, I didn't grow up in a particularly creative or, upbeat sort of neighborhood, so I don't think I really got anything in that regard. Just like a random one I had one time, I think, like they were just out of candy, to be honest. And they gave us, frozen waffles wow, I like that. You don't know whether to be thankful or offended or just puzzled. That's just straight up funny. Yeah, Now. Kels, are there any lines that should not be crossed when it comes to celebrating or decorating for Halloween? What would be taking things too far? I think the only thing for me, I'm very big on honoring the dead, especially like recently dead. And if it's like a specific person depiction. So I think something where someone recently died and making like, I probably wouldn't even do like a zombie version if it's like a real person, and especially if there was something like tragic, you know, that happened that, in their death. But I mean, there's probably like, I don't know, there's there could be I can even think of, like political, like a dictator if you like, I don't know, had a depiction of them brutally murdered and like. No, like, yes, I have less empathy for someone like that, but I don't know, I kind of feel like depictions of real people, and I would probably just kind of like, leave it, leave it out of that. If you're especially if it's, I don't know, coming from a brutal or, I don't know, hateful place. Yeah. It would be in poor taste. I remember after, Steve Irwin, the crocodile hunter, died, 20 some years ago, bill Maher, dressed as him for a party with, stingray. Barb coming out of his chest. I'm like, oh, that was really, not okay. Yeah. And I remember there was a TikTok I watched, I think last week where there was a mother who was complaining, and I kind of see where she's coming from, but she's saying how houses are decorated a bit too far, too much gore and death and blood and guts and, you know, their children in the neighborhood. And she was worried that it would upset her kids, who are, you know, in the vicinity of that. And I guess I can see that, you don't necessarily need to go so far that you're being so graphic and offensive, but, personally, I would revel in any such decorations and whatnot, and I can't think of much beyond that. dead person, topic we discovered that would really be, crossing the line for me anyway. Yeah, I definitely agree, I think. I mean, I don't know, it's just, like, more censorship. And yeah, I agree, you don't need to have something like, extremely graphic, like body horror level intestines kind of being ripped out and, you know, decomposing body beyond, just like, you know, your classic zombie or something like that. So yeah, you can be a little mindful, but there's also I've definitely heard of things that were like pretty much just good spirited, maybe a little spooky, sinister Halloween decorations, but like, nothing even really that gory or graphic where you know, I think there's a lot of the mentality from some people, you know, mostly for religious kind of viewpoints of like, you know, this is demonic. Again, you're, you know, just kind of making it something that it isn't, you know? Yeah. So definitely, unless it's something just very intense live and not the right timing and all that. Yeah. Decorate to the fullest extent of your spooky heart. the over. Commercialization of Christmas is annoying to many. Do you think the same could be said of Halloween? Kelsey no, not Well. I mean, I just want as much Halloween for as long as I can possibly get it. So if it's, like, profitable to, businesses to have Halloween stuff for, like, and, you know, launch their Halloween line in like, July or August. I'm not mad at that also because by like October you get places like Michael's that I recently visited their Halloween I'll and 60% off and it was like early October. So it's like they're already trying to get rid of it to make room for Christmas, which is perfect for me because most of my rooms in my apartment are have a specific spooky themed year round, like my my kitchen is mostly which focused and kind of classic Halloween vibes to an extent. So, like when Spirit Halloween has their big sale, I actually have a hocus pocus like decor and, you know, old witch bottles and things like that. And some of these are like, you know, hire like look to be higher quality. So I mean, I love yeah, I just really want as much Halloween as I can possibly get. So yeah, there is an element of over commercializing. And I think even with, even in our in the 1993 hocus Pocus, like, I like they're kind of focus on that where first they just think, oh, this is literally like a goblin. And the little which kind of running around. And then even when they dawn on, they've like, what have they done to our holiday? Like now it's just about frolicking and getting candy. And I love like even the reactions of they're like, well, it's just chocolate. Why would I want that for? And I don't know, just kind of so it in a way, there is an element of not always, but in some aspects, getting away from maybe kind of the darker roots and even just this kind of connection of the living and the dead and just this night where this ethereal kind of connection and magic can happen, but really anything like, even if I just see a pumpkin or I see like some little cheap skeleton kind of decoration, kind of hanging somewhere just makes me happy. So, like, I like I like that the more of it that is around, the better. But yeah, I guess it kind of depends on your taste. Because yeah, Christmas is a bit much for me. I feel I feel like it's so I can appreciate it, like the week of Christmas or like when it's Christmas time, but it's just so there's just Christmas everywhere. And I think with Christmas it's like, I don't know, it kind of feels like a force fed commercial cheer. You know, where there is, there are the good Christmas material and stories that kind of do kind of dig into something more. But I think those are more rare. And even just like Christmas music is mostly just largely horrible. There's, you know, better varieties. again, so but if you're someone who absolutely like, if you get the joy from hearing the Christmas song or you know, anything your peppermint mocha or anything, you know, or seeing a Christmas tree, if that brings you the joy that I get from seeing spooky things kind of sitting around like, I get it. It's just it's just like, not yeah, we all have our own things. Christmas is it has its roots in more religious significances, which I think people take very seriously. And I understand that. And if something were to demean that through a cheap, more commercial, greed based, approach, I could see how that would be offensive. Or like, discounted and so forth. But Halloween doesn't really have that. I mean, there are its dark roots, but it's not like our lives were or like we're normally going to go to some sort of, you know, church or religious sort of, based Halloween thing that the holiday that's commercialized is mocking. This is really all we know. And most of us, our exposure to Halloween is through the commercialized aspects of it, and that's how we fell in love with it. And I rather enjoy the fact that the commercial industry or any kind of, American socioeconomic, circulation or centricity about my favorite holiday takes place and they're participating on the corporate level and societal level and the familial level, like all these different levels of everyone, playing out my favorite Halloween, I think the more the merrier. And if we can all boom the, the economy a bit at the same time, I'm happy to partake. Which Halloween centric character do you relate to most? Ooh. Not just horror, but specifically Halloween. Yeah. Has to like, some connection to Halloween. Like, it could be like a film that maybe takes place around Halloween. But like, isn't the hugest part of it, but is in some way connected to Halloween. Or admire if you don't see yourself in them. But you kind of like admire what they're all about and that could work. I've always appreciated the it's not really generic, but you have, classic what we consider universal horror characters like Frankenstein and the Wolf Man and Dracula as that trio. And I associate them so thoroughly with Halloween because when I was a kid, and I'm sure when my parents were a kid and even perhaps my grandparents, they were all able to dress up as those three characters. And everybody knew that those characters were those characters, and there was no mystery and there was nothing weird. It's almost kind of bland or generic, but it's like, I don't know, a good analogy, but it's like chocolate, you know, everybody likes chocolate or pizza or something. And they go, oh, the good old standbys that everybody's going to like and appreciate. And there's even a style of costume over the years, over the decades where you see all these variations of those same characters and the eras in which those existed, you can sort of feel, a layer of like the past or a creepiness of almost like a historical level of change. As these characters evolve, kind of like how Mickey Mouse has evolved as a character over the decades. Those characters, they change and they might get more graphic or whatever, but they're also, I don't know, they warm my heart to see people know and love something that's been, a part of our culture, like a, an iconic cultural character for so long. And something about that just makes me feel, that teary eyed. But I really love that, esthetic and that sentiment. Yeah, it's kind of amazing how even I've seen, like, really young kids 4 or 5 years old see a costumed, you know, Frankenstein's monster and just totally elated Frankenstein. And, you know, even probably in most cases, you know, you might have the occasional, you know, where maybe their, their parent had one of the classic, you know, films on. But a lot of, they really have stood that test of time and being just very interesting layered, connective and very, very appealing to like sort of gothic and suspense fueled stories that while still having these kind of like layers and something likable and relatable about them, where they have, you know, even like Hotel Transylvania, I think has all all of the classic universal monster characters just kind of weaved into a slightly different, you know, perspective and tone. So yeah, I definitely think those have it's amazing and and great that those characters have. They do have a certain classic feel. But, have evolved and and lasted. and which one specifically what did you say? You're like, this is the one I'm, I really feel that connection with most. I'm going to say Frankenstein. And I acknowledge that none of those three characters are intrinsically Halloween based, but I think they've transcend did whatever their original characters and settings were into embodying Halloween for me, to the point where you can't have Halloween without those characters. And it is interesting how you can show any of those to a four year old. And I'm sure they haven't watched the originals, but it's it's just omnipresent or through osmosis. They're somehow in their short spans of lives, able to pick up on specifically who those characters are. That's interesting. Yeah. and our last Halloween special. You mentioned the very worthy dream home ambitions fitting for a haunted house and horror lover. What are a few essential things that Macomb Crypts could contain? I actually had this little fantasy. A couple days ago I was thinking about if I could, let's say, reconstruct the facade of my dream home to look like the psycho house or something iconic. And then I thought, you know, do I really want people slowing down and taking pictures of my house? I grew up in a house that my dad built that was, a dome. So it was. It was a wood house, but it was, a dome house. And it was so out of context, for any other house that anybody had ever seen in my neighborhood or in most people's lives. But it was always a thing where people would drive by and take pictures or gawk and like, what the fuck? And my dad was an artist and he had, Jesus Christ nailed to a cross. Life-Size sculpture in our front yard. Oh wow. And it was so old and deteriorate because it was made out of plaster. And so every year the rain would dissolve it a little bit. And then you see this almost like a skeletal Christ melting away, nailed to a cross in front of our dome house. It was, I don't know that I'd want that level of attraction yet. I still want that, feeling of darkness and almost, a distressed look, like the house is in a state of decay, though I'd want it to be structurally sound, and I don't want it to be leaking on me or anything. When it rains. I really love that cold, damp, almost musty smell of an attic. Or, how I imagine Salem being like the weather there. There's a house, a few blocks from here that they painted black. I don't know if it's that kind of black, that for them, it absorbs the light and it's like super black. I think that would be too expensive to paint your house, but I thought that was cool, though. I think with the heat we have in Southern California, it would probably be unbearably hot in that house. Most of the year. Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining first word you've already realized. in this Halloween special where we're. We're doing great. In this Halloween special, we'll review 1990s three. We're fucked. You got this. Despite its 1993 release and near classic status status is one more annoying than the other? Somebody I've heard recently say process versus process. And I just kept annoying the shit out of me. Let's move on. Despite its 1993 release and near classic status status, for whatever reason, I never saw the film until just last week, despite its absence from my use. Despite its absence from my youth, I do want to acknowledge the jubilant, jubilant night saying that right. Yeah. Jubilant. Sounds Okay. I do want to acknowledge the jubilant doesn't sound right. I do want to acknowledge the jubilant and fantastical music of John Debney, If you would like to join our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, subscribe now and give this podcast a like. And be sure to comment your wretched thoughts below. Keep our podcast suffering on by finding it in your cold, black, withered hearts. To support us on Patreon, a link to our PayPal is also below. For one time, donations of any amount. It was nice knowing you. And let's throw in and Happy Halloween and happy! were going to do Oh yeah, that yeah, let's do that one sentence. You're right. It was nice knowing you and Happy Halloween. All right.