Triangle Review | Hidden Gem or Hidden Meh?

Hello, horrorphiles. In this episode, we take the wayback machine to our very first podcast together, before Dissecting Horror was even born, reviewing the film, Triangle, among other scary topics.

This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.

We hope you find it in your cold, black, withered hearts to join our Society of Grotesquery and Loathing and keep our podcast suffering onward:

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Photo credit: Slevin Mors

Transcript

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Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature. In this episode, we present Steve and I’s first podcast together from May 5th, 2022, before having birthed Dissecting Horror together Out of us that day came Triangle, the review that is, the 2009 supernatural horror thriller. I forgot I wrote that. That sounds painful. I'm writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. and our society of Grotesquerie and loathing, if you will. I will, and we hope you will subscribe for more, won't you? All right. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Nothing to See or Hear podcast. I'm your co-host, T.K.. I'm an entertainment lawyer alongside, as always, Filmmaker Steven Aguilera. Plus our special guest for this episode. Writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. My pleasure. And before we go any further, is our audience probably already knows and is giddy with anticipation. We have a big announcement. We at ENT so H are celebrating our one episode anniversary. That's right friends, on this day. Today we recorded our first podcast and I just want to say Stevie Ray Kelsey. It has been an honor and a privilege to have been down this journey with you to these last several seconds. And here's to one more. And what a one we have for you tonight. I know I say this every episode, but this time I really mean it. Certainly our best ever. On top tonight we have got triangle released about 13 years ago. So if you want to catch it in theaters, you gotta hurry. But it is streaming now on Amazon Prime. We saw it. We have thoughts. I think it's going to be a great conversation. Plus, we'll play one of our favorite games. TK hates horror movies, but first, this podcast is brought to you by our friends at Lockheed Martin, Lockheed Martin, who remind you that the all new F-35 c katama foldable wingtip Joint Combat fighter jet is now out. And boy is it a humdinger. Imagine taking the wheel with a Pratt and Whitney F 135 100 after burning turbofan. As you just sit back, drop a tab and feel those 7.5 G's of force rocky to sleep. The f 35 c k2 bar foldable wingtip joint combat fighter jet now available at Naval Air Weapon Station China Lake. The USS Delaware at stores or wherever combat jets are sold. So with that bit of business out of the way, we've come to our movie review for this episode. It is triangle and this movie answers an old question. If you're leading a government that exports$80 billion of iron ore every year, but only has the population of about half of California, what do you do with all that extra money? Answer. Is you fun? Middling psychological thrillers, financed in large part with a grant from Screen Australia, triangle stars Melissa George is a young mother who goes on a large sailboat with five other folks when they get hit by an electrical storm, capsize and a rescued by a super creepy ocean liner. It's kind of like a humorless Gilligan's Island. If Gilligan was a fully armed, murderous psychopath with a nice rack so I saw this, guys, and I have to say, I sort of wondered, who this was for. And I know we're going to pick this up on our second segment. T.K. hates horror movies, but I personally did not think that this was as scary as it sort of led on to be. Now, of course, I would not have seen it if I had thought that it was scary. I had to reassure you that it was merely a, supernatural thriller, as I recall. Yeah, but then I asked you if there's going to be any gore. Yeah, I just told you a few, gunshot wounds, that sort of thing, Right. And then half a keg of red paint and ketchup later. Yeah, there was, there was a lot more stabby shooty stuff than I, than I thought, but still not really, like super scary. So I don't know, as as someone who, like, hates being scared. I was glad of it. But as someone who might be thinking on behalf of a person who likes scary stuff, I can't think how they would be super satisfied by it necessarily. So, I mean, I throw it to you guys, like, what did you all think? I mean, you're the horror buffs. Did this this satisfy you as a horror movie? I would say yes. And as far as the question of scary, I think a lot of horror above, I don't know, at least myself. I don't really go into horror movies anymore. Really looking to be scared. Like the jump scares and such don't really get me, but in my mind, this is almost a more deeper, personal human type of horror. Because it's really more than anything, it digs into, our flaws as humans and in this case, especially, struggles of motherhood and, you know, things they don't really say specifically what's, you know, going on. But, you know, cases like postpartum depression where you see a mother just snap one day, you know, trying to do her best for her child. But we all have those moments where we kind of are just at that tipping point and just lose it and how, how you can't, like, really go back from that. So I think a big part of it is almost like hopelessness and, being afraid to acknowledge those darker parts of yourself. So I feel like in that way it's the concept, like a what if you imagine yourself in this position and in this loop, I think is very scary. But it's a different type of scare than like your jump scare. Sort of a scary movie. Yeah. I thought it was more like, a Twilight Zone episode. It had, a mixture of feelings for me. The Shining came up a lot. There was even a little homage. Did you guys catch it? To The Shining? Never saw it. And, Was it in the ship, like the hallways? No. Well, because the kind of those some, like, especially with, and all that, I kind of had some, it had that vibe. Especially because it was more, old timey in Yeah. But there was, a cabin, I guess they call it on a ship as opposed to a hotel room. But it was room two, three, seven. Yeah. They that a couple times, and I thought, well, that might be a little bit too. I don't want to say on the nose, but just too much of an homage. did you just nod when I said that? Did you know what I was talking about? No, I nodded, because, when you mentioned two, three, seven, that meant nothing to me. But, just the idea that it, like, hooked into that film made me think, okay, was there something about The Shining that was about, you know, being so upset with oneself that one tries to correct the past through reliving it. Was there anything like that in The Shining? not at all. That was completely wrong. It Yeah. Good try. I think it's more about and your mind kind of degrading over time and probably some old mysterious curse. It's not really explained, that deeply. And I think the. Did you read the book, Kelsey? did, yes. I don't I don't really read much, but, anyway, I think it departs. Quite a bit Yeah. anyway, I guess I kind of has the same, similar aspect of, like, a destructive parent. Sort of. Yeah. draw there. Now, the other thing that, I thought was, the connection to other films was, I felt a little memento in there, or there's some, at least, I'm sure one episode of Star Trek somewhere. That does that sort of, Mobius Loop kind of thing where you have to relive, events and somehow learn from each and grow. And then, was the other movie? There's, Groundhog Day. Well, yeah, that's that's actually one, but I, I almost didn't say that just because it was too obvious. Oh, lost. Lost too. So if you guys watched lost, I did. Yeah. I actually did not know. only saw it for the first time, vaguely recently, but it had a similar feel of things. Never really being explained. keep the, the characters along a certain journey and, keep things interesting and it's mysterious and, there really isn't a whole lot, explained about this, but the fact that it's set in the Bermuda Triangle gives them license, I think, to just make it weird. And you can get away with it because it's the Bermuda Triangle. yeah, it was more like, a Twilight Zone episode. I didn't really feel scared. It wasn't that sort of movie. There was, I got a few chills here and there. I suppose we can get into a few specific scenes, as we go along, but, mostly it was just intriguing and clever to me, and I just wanted to see what was going to happen, and I wasn't. I wasn't feeling like I was watching some generic, premise that was just taking advantage of tropes that could be exploited for horror films. But I felt like, some thought went into this and, there wasn't really too much wasted about it. It was just everything pretty much had a reason. Not all of it was perfectly clear to me, but, generally speaking, I was impressed, because my expectations were probably pretty low, I think, to your point, Kelsey, the crux of the, the conceit here is really towards the end where you see, finally, the main character just blow up, her kid in a really disturbing way. And how that is sort of the impetus for everything else, because it's it's that destructive behavior that, that you mentioned that sort of forces her to accept the ride on the yacht, which in turn results in a catastrophe that lands them on this ocean liner, which in turn, you know, results in all this havoc, where she's basically carving up and shooting at the whole fucking ship and, you know, and doing it again, and that part is interesting. And I also will give credit, to Melissa George. She was like, amazing. I thought she was the best part of the movie. She played, for the Jess. Yeah. Yeah. She looked a lot like, Angelina Jolie and a few shots when she got more demented. I don't know if you noticed But I should mention that we are going to be getting into spoilers. So if you don't like spoilers, then you've been warned. If you've got, like, a 15 year like cat on movies that you refuse to get spoilers on, you might want to watch out because this is only 13 years old. So just check. Check out the movie. Wait, pause this, check out the movie and come back. And then you can, I'm sure you'll you'll want to be like, wait, what did I just watch? Okay, then we can go right into or stick your fingers in your ears and say, la la, la for the next maybe seven. I would say seven minutes or so. Well, that's a weird point in itself. You, Kelsey, mentioned that you did not, hear of this movie. Yeah, like I wasn't, actually, I recognize, like, the movie poster once. I was like, okay, triangle, let me go. Look, I was like, okay. Yeah, I've seen that. Also, it was on shudder, which is an amazing platform for horror movies. So I think it's the one that I had kind of just scan past, but never really quite watched. So it was definitely well worth the watch. Well, I noticed that it's not technically on Amazon Prime, it's on time. which I had never heard of. it plays with ads which were very jarringly based like, yeah. some coming of age rom com, woman or women to just pop in the screen in the middle of Yeah, it was a little disappointing. I actually watched about the first half hour on, Amazon with the IMDb TV. And then I was like, this feels like the type of movie that would be on shudder. And I looked it up and it was on shudder without ads. So I watched the rights that way, Yeah. I've been meaning to get shudder, but, don't I don't think they really show you what films they have on there at the moment. Maybe that's too much to update on the website, but, it's only about 50 bucks or something like that. But, what struck me as odd is that Amazon, they, own IMDb. So why is there a separate IMDb TV, streaming service when it's all Amazon anyway? And I've never, so it just seems like an odd, choice, but also, a failed one since it existed, and it looks like it's been around for a while and they keep promoting during these ad breaks, different shows that exist. but. Well, you'll be pleased to know then, that in fact, they are shutting it down or not shutting it down, but they're rebranding, so it's not going to be IMDb that TV any longer. It's going to be Amazon. Freevee you are joking. I'm not joking. This this podcast is not a joke. Yeah. No, it's it's rebranded. Yeah. I mean, it will be soon from a, lame title to an even lamer one. All right. originally I heard about this film, only about a week ago. There's, a channel on YouTube that I follow. Lady McCree star, who posted something on her Instagram about this movie she saw, and she prided herself about, seeing all these horror films and being in a fishy narrative about it and so forth. And she never heard of this. And, she was, I mean, she rarely post anything on Instagram at all. So the fact that she would post this movie as something worth watching, was intriguing. So I watched it that night and I thought, wow, the same thing. what? Where did this come from? come I never heard of it? And, here we are talking about it on her own podcast, a week later with two other people who have never heard of it. So, but something of a, a mystery about that to me. Like, why how did it slip under everyone's radar to the degree that it had? I mean, initial distribution must have been pretty poor. I didn't check out who distributed it in the U.S. But I mean, you know, it's an indie, indie, low budget film. So it, it might not have gotten wide distribution in the U.S at the time. I mean, I certainly don't remember it. Yeah, well, it has, Liam, Hemsworth. Yeah, yeah. Don't call me Luke or Chris Hemsworth. Yes. He did what? What was that movie you would know? Oh wait, we have to take names, right? Yeah, yeah. Sorry. We have to take that again. Because you said Liam. In fact, I think it's Luke Hemsworth in this one, isn't it? I think oh, and I, is it Liam? Oh, no. I'm sorry. Right. It probably is. Liam. You think it is. Liam. And I insist you not cut out anything. I'm sorry, guys, go ahead. So I think, confirmed Liam Hemsworth. I go boom. a side note, I found it interesting how, the other characters would keep referring to him as the boy or the kid, and then this, six foot 12 Step. obviously looks like 28 or so. Yeah, I think maybe there was, an original point in the script that it would be a more of a teenage kid or something, and he probably was 18. He's just that manly. But, the fact is, they probably should have went back and just changed it to 24 or something. Was he supposed to be the brother? Not the brother. I think he was supposed to be 18 though. And they said like, I guess the guy with the boat was, kind of saw him, didn't have a home like he was homeless. And then he kind of just, like, picked him up and was like, oh, here's a job. the, the ropes and, and rig the yacht and all that stuff. Like, I thought they grew up together. I thought they were brothers, but then they don't look anything like it. thought he kept reminding me of, like the main yachtsman, reminded me of Dave Foley, I can see that a little bit. Yeah. I think the main line that Liam had throughout the film was, hello? Just Oh, harsh hallway. That's hilarious. I would have loved to see the script, like five pages of hello? Oh, yeah. I think, the yachtsman, I'm really bad with names, but, the guy that I thought was going to be the main protagonist, but then, dies off relatively early in this. I mean, he had his place, but, I think his main line was. Are you all right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. a woman is horribly killed and drowned. In the white squall. The boat is overturned. They're all sitting there waiting to die, slowly and horribly. And he steps up. You're right. And they say yes. Like, oh, yeah, you know, like, what the fuck in that? That line itself. Are you okay? It's always been something of a I don't know, it's a personal bug when people would ask me that. You're right. Yes. I'm fine, you know, and then just keep asking that over and over. It's like when you sneeze. Bless you. Bless. Okay. You don't have to keep saying that over I only, that's why I only do one. Bless you. You get one and then whatever happens to you after that, you're on your own. But anyway, I think that's the end of that. Ramble on on that. I think the only other line that keeps getting repeated was, Heather. Yeah. the woman that drowned wasn't that, like, kind of disappointing. Like nothing. Nothing happened with that. Yeah. That's true. Didn't really get her addressed. I don't think she needed to be in the film at all. I mean, she was there to, I suppose, make other characters look less, cunty. She was a bit, Well, no, the redhead was like the the the biggest B-word. Well, she got on my nerves just for being that woman that screams hysterically. And there's a constant state of panic, which makes me not want to like horror films, but we can probably get into that a bit later. But, Yeah. Those are like, the only nit picks as far as dialog. That's just some of the repetitive points that could have been more creatively expressed in terms of, you know, trying to find other people and, I think there's something about, plot hole in trying to justify why a woman would be screaming for her friend on a ghost ship and why she would even be there, even though they watched her drown. Never mind. Why did she drown? She had a life so why was she the one that drowned? And the two people up there trying to fight the storm were not wearing it. Somehow they didn't think to put on life vests and they were thrown overboard too. But, little things like that can really ruin a film for me. Yeah, I like in a lot of ways I think it was very, you know, very unique premise. I mean, granted, there's been other similar time loop sort of things, but in a lot of ways, it had very good intentions. And I think the core of it was, pretty intelligent, but their word for sure, things that were kind of erratic, messy and consistent. I think this is definitely spoiler territory, but, especially if were to believe, like these different versions of Joss or different time loops, especially with the lock ups, you see, like, you know, I don't know, 30, 50 lockets. Obviously she's done this again and again and again trying to get it right. Which that is one of those kind of interesting things going back, knowing the ending, that you kind of look at everything earlier differently. so at the end, she's going on this boat and, how it's perceived when we're first watching it is that she doesn't know what's happening when all this is first going on. She's just trying to figure it out. And it seems genuine, not just her acting to kind of pull other people, even with her comments of like, I feel like I've been here before. This feels like deja vu. so it kind of is like weird. Like at times she's supposed to be know what's going on and at times she doesn't. So if this is, like, are they different versions of herself? that seems a little messy. Either she should be in the know or not. I think one of the most interesting aspects is that these aren't different versions of herself, that it's all the same person. Like even when she's telling her kid, oh, that was the bad mom. That's not who I really am. But I think it's a little part of it. I kind of missed that. An opportunity to kind of go go full circle and fully, fully admit, those kind of flaws or bad parts of herself or, you know, those instances of losing her temper. Because it seems like what what she's in this time loop is she's not beating it because she's not, fully admitting those things. You know, like, oh, I can beat this, but just the way that, like, her not fully accepting these other parts of herself, it seems like, is what's keeping her there, which is an interesting, you know, forewarning. But I think the film could have gone a little further to really explore and dive into that a little more. I agree. I mean, they, they did kind of, I thought, maybe explained a little too much too early when they had that clunky exposition. Looking at this sign on this creepy ocean liner, when they're first quote unquote rescued, saying that the name of the boat is an homage to the parent of Sisyphus, who has to push up a boulder to the top of the mountain, only to have it fall down to the bottom and push it up again the next day as sort of a punishment for cheating death. And that sort of tipped me off right away where we were going with this. And indeed, you know, that does sort of help explain, like why she didn't die in the car wreck at the end, why she, you know, felt compelled to go back and do it again. I'm thinking maybe the electrical storm is what reset her memory so that she doesn't remember. She knew what was going on throughout the first part of the yacht yachting sailing expedition. But once the electrical storm hit, that wiped her memory. Maybe in concert with her almost drowning or whatever. And so when they're rescued, the only thing that she has remaining in her memory is sort of vague deja vu, but not a real recollection of what was going on. But I think if you're sing 70 lockets and 150 dead pigeons and 52 dead redheads, you know, you're, That was great imagery in that scene, though. really well all I could think of was the costume designer going like, we're going to need 52 white blouses our department. Make sure they all have a bloody gouges in the rain. Well, I think, for me it was, a sensation for her. Not unlike waking up and just having that dream you just had. It's sort of slipping away. You can't quite piece it together. Think about it. there was that one scene where she actually does fall asleep, and she wakes up on the yacht, and, she says she doesn't, remember what it was that she was just dreaming, and, I just took it to be like that, and I don't know the mechanics behind it, but, there was a recurring theme of the Seagull from the very beginning. I don't know what that symbolized. Does anybody have any theories? Because it just it would show up and it would it almost be like the the feather on Forrest Gump and just kind of floating around like, okay, is it supposed to be like, some sort of foreshadowing of something? But it was always there, and there were plenty of other seagulls munching on dead carcasses and so forth. It was somehow distinguished Yeah, that notice that? yeah. I mean, it's a it's a motif for sure. And, you know, it could represent, you know, the, the need to, fly away from the situation. Also, you know, they're scavengers and, the just the fact that they recur, you know, sort of invites, invokes again that, idea of the, of the repetition of it, I just made that up. Now, I love that the fly away. I think I could be, convinced for because it seems like a lot of it, it's her again, like her, her flaws are very human, understandable. They make her sympathetic. But also, it seems like she's flying away. So to speak, from her. From her past. What she's done, the effects of it, and not fully. Not fully addressing it. And, so I then I guess one interesting thing about the film is kind of at the end, it's pretty clear, but you could still kind of take it in a few ways, like, is this is this a game that she can beat and defeat, or is this just, her personal health, like, she's in hell and this is just that little bit of hope will keeps her going, but it's it's, in the end, just sort of a miserable kind of joke. Well, is there any reason why she couldn't have just, instead of running away whenever she saw herself or the others couldn't? She just explained to them like, whoa, I know this is weird, but you can't say I'm crazy because there's two of us right here. Let me just tell you what's up. Instead of just outright murdering each one to reset things somehow. Yeah, explanations like that are movie killers. You can't. Yeah, you can't do the, like, reasonable thing, or else you'd ruin everybody's good time. But couldn't they find a justification, like, figure out some reason why she had this? Like, maybe if they, they, they would cancel each other out and explode the universe if they got no, explain I mean, it would definitely subvert expectations. I would be more interested in something where it went completely off the rails halfway with it, like, okay, wait a minute. Let's like sit down and just reasonably think about put down the gun and the machete and let's talk reasonably about what's going on here. You know, at least on one of the loops. I mean, there's so many different Yeah. Do it. one of the options could have been to do that. It could have been kind of interesting if they didn't see two, if they were together and they only saw one person because they are the same person, they're just different, you know, different, sides of the same person. That could have been interesting. But, you know, we didn't make this film. Well, the there's a good point about films like this and that they give us, a rewatch ability factor. I went back and watch it a second time and you can see. Oh, okay. That's that's why she did that. Because it led to her, yada, yada, yada. I watched it a third time and I thought, no, okay. I'm understanding it more with passing and things tend to make sense a bit more, but, even considered buying it on Blu ray just so I could have it, but, just one of those where I think I looked it up and it was, hard to get $68, and it's in a region that doesn't work in North America or something like that. anyway, would you guys watch it again? Absolutely. I definitely, I agree, it's it's one that like, once, you know, that ending and, you know, even even as the credits roll, you're still kind of like thinking about, like, okay, well, so if, if we're to believe this is what it was and that affected, you know, these things in this way, everything earlier on reads differently. So I think that is a really that's something the film does really well. I think of it is it is one that kind of, kind of compels you to think about it. And okay, this works because this is how this connects to this and all that. So, yeah, it definitely, seems like it would be valuable on repeat viewings. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I am appreciating the movie more now sitting here talking it over with you guys, because until then, I've been sort of like hating on it because it was like, is that all right? There's a lot of unexplained things, stuff that, you know, they don't get into. They sort of leave it to you to think about and then throughout, you know, the movie was to me, it was a lot of like sort of interesting central conceit, but also a lot of repetitive, you know, stabby shooty stuff that I was less like, man, okay. But talking it over and, and, you know, focusing in on what's going on internally, which was your first point, I think, you know, makes me give it, you know, a little bit more of a, of a second thought, but it's not my genre. So I just I would probably give it a pass. I mean, on a repeat viewing, although I would be interested in a sequel, maybe quadrilateral or pentagon or something, but it could, but it could go into more of like the, you know, who else this is affected and the rest of her story. I mean, she we really are rooting for her to, like, break the chain, especially at the end. And she does not, which is kind of curious. Frustrating for me at first. But again, talking it over with you guys, I think, you know, more understandable and more intriguing that way. But still, there's still a rooting interest here. You know, I think there's there's grounds for a sequel. And I say this not as a huge fan of the film, but I think there's more to be told. But I would I would probably do like my 15th viewing of back to the future before my second viewing of triangle. There's a particular character, is the taxi driver that comes in towards the end. He walks up after the car accident and says, hey, no one's going to save that kid. And then, hey, do you want to ride? It was just Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was really weird. somehow the mastermind behind all this. And who's going to provide some. do something? right? Just just happened to be a guy that pulled over and just Well. Or is it like. Like if there was a sequel, I think I think you're quite right. I think that would focus on that guy. And, you know, Jeff Probert, I believe, is his name. You might remember no, he, Yeah, I think you're right. I think it would focus on that guy because there is a real break with reality when she gets into the car accident at the end, but she survives without a scratch on her. She's lit differently. So I'm thinking she's dead or in some kind of like, you know, middle ground, whatever that's called. Yeah. Seems like it's either a purgatory or like personal hell. Like it's just tormenting her. And she's she's still holding on to that hope, but, she's still not admitting the, you know, the past and these other parts of herself, which is keeping her from this. So it could be like, yeah, maybe he's, I don't know, some key player in the afterlife who's, like, pushing her on this cycle almost as a torment sort of thing. Yeah. I think, there was something definitely creepy about the guy to begin with, I do agree, though, that he could have had maybe in one more significant line, I kind of I clicked things into place to seem a little less random. And also at the very end of his scene, he says, I'm going to let the the meter keep running or whatever the term is, and you're going to come back and she goes, I promise. oh, right. Oh, if that was a nod to, okay, we're going to play this loop, a few more times. And she kind of knows that on some level. But assume that the reason he would say that, logically in the real world is because she didn't have any money on her and she was going to go grab some money and come back, or she was just going to take another trip. I don't know, I was a little bit confused by that. Yeah. And a lot like a in a realistic everyday scenario. If she's going on a boat trip, like how long is the planning on keeping that meter running? He's dropping her off at the yacht club. doesn't Yeah. there was, a number of little plot holes like that which, I have a couple of convenient notes on, on. the first which, there's a point where she, Well, someone else, Liam, I believe, locates her keys These are my keys. She's trying to convince them. Wouldn't she still have her keys? Because it's the later, version of her that drops the keys so she could just pull out of her pocket the keys that she should still have. And show. See, these are my But that wasn't a thing for some reason, so that confused me slightly. What else? There was a guy obviously dressed to be her with the hood on for a couple of shots. You can see this conspicuously hairy hand and, wrist when he's in the foreground just right there, and they show the same shot twice. Why couldn't they just put a woman Yeah, that, to play herself? But that was, I mean, it couldn't literally been a hairier hand Oh my God. Yeah, maybe it wasn't a good choice. Just use her. Her double. Yeah. No. For reals. But yeah, I noticed that, too. I didn't notice the hair as much, but it was definitely man hands holding that shotgun that was supposed to be hers. So yeah. And was supposed to, look more manly. So it would throw the audience off that it wasn't her or something? I don't Probably. But as I can, I can really appreciate a good twist. But that's the one thing I hate with twist when they're like, it was really this way all along. But then things that they showed were not this way. Like, you have to have some element of reality. Like if it's just this one character who's losing their mind, it's okay to an extent if it's her perception of things, but when it's everyone else seeing this too, there has to be some consistency, right when the movie itself is telling you. Like, no, we decided it's different now. Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah. I'm, I get off the bandwagon at that point as well. I'm assuming that, there were no sequels. I mean, there could have been because we never heard of the first one. Maybe I did look up a guy, Christopher Smith. Yeah. There was one movie that he did that I've heard of, Black Death with Sean Bean. I remember it was on Okay. queue on Netflix for a long time, and to this day I've never watched it. has anybody ever seen any of this other I have seen, severance, which was really good. I actually, like a lot is more of a horror comedy, but it's kind of like a workplace trip and sort of slasher. Very bloody, probably with, like, it. But it was kind of like a fun, smart, kind of critique on, you know, kind of greed and trying to get ahead and lack of empathy and stuff. So I think he, he does try to make like, smart horror, kind of reflecting on maybe flaws, in, you know, humanity and society and such, which I appreciate a lot in my horror. I love horror with depth. Was there a double meaning for the title severance? Was it something to do with, no severance pay? Yeah, I believe so. I saw it a long time ago. Was at the, Cleveland Film Festival, like before it was even released. I think it was like 2007 or something. But yeah, I did enjoy that one. I have to look that. I think he, did some, TV or some streaming, series of something, I don't know, but, he's still working, and, I, I'm definitely into what he writes and directs, so I'd like to see more of myself. Yeah. I mean, he seems like, like a talent. I actually looked up severance as well. And I got kind of jealous because, some of the quotes from people who've seen it are just like, oh, in fact, I, I have a couple. I went on my, Netflix DVD, website. I have that service. I'm not ashamed to admit it. It still exists. And I get DVDs and I enjoy them. And I'm not being defensive about it at all. Okay. But it it was helpful because I looked up severance, and we had the, the people who've seen it, you know, give their reviews. He was one. It says, what can I say? This is a great little horror dramedy with a fair amount of action and a little something to say. There is a cheeky wit in this movie that you don't see every day in horror, going to your point about, you know, it being sort of like it's bloody, but it's funny and, you know, I would have, I would have appreciated a little bit of humor. I noticed that the main character is as brilliantly as she is played by the actress, spends 0.03 seconds of the entire film with a smile like a genuine smile. She is miserable the whole time, and there's not a single funny line that I can recall. Can you guys recall anything light? Well, the the guy, he has a funny name. Downey. I think his name. He was my favorite character. he was funny, maybe that's why Comic relief is so important. You should have somebody there doing something because it just gets kind of, tedious or, just too much tension. You need some sort of, release, Yeah. She was definitely a lot of despair. She carried with her even I think maybe if she didn't fully remember at that time. It's understandable if a, this really is just this eternal hell that she's living in and trying to break out of. And maybe some of the guilt is sleeping in that she doesn't want to admit. And knowing what she is, you know, potentially done to her kid. I get, I get the having wanting a little bit of, fun in your horror. I'm okay with both, though. I'm okay with horror. That's fun. And I get some things are just bleak and brutal. And she was definitely, very much haunted by her own ghosts and whatever this bigger thing that was happening. So, like, it worked for me, but yeah, not she's not having a good time. Yeah, you know, for sure. Was there a particular character that you could relate to more than any other? I guess not so much. I guess. I probably, I guess one thing that was interesting was with Jess, even when she's having these brutal kill scenes, she was still kind of sympathetic because you kind of get an idea that she's gone through this whole ordeal and she's trying to save them. She does place her, you know, getting back to her child above others lives, which is, you know, definitely interesting too. But it wasn't like you're normal watching a killer kill sort of a thing. Because a, we're supposed to believe this isn't permanent. They're all going to come back and everything. Maybe it's going to be okay. But also, I think you saw how much she went through and her determination and resilience and trying to beat these odds. And she was still felt a lot while she was doing all this and, you know, seemed to, you know, feel sorry, but like, oh, this is to me, this is the only way out. So I guess I probably felt the most for her at least. Was she, your favorite character, regardless of how empathetic she might have been to you? I would say probably only like, I didn't like the other characters. They were interesting enough, and they worked for their roles, but it wasn't like, oh, I really love this character. I guess they didn't connect to me like, they weren't. They weren't necessarily one note, but it wasn't enough that I was, that that really made me connect to them. I like the the driver. Because I also drive. So I felt like a real kinship with him. Based on, that Did, you guys want to come up with ratings? I noticed, though. Yeah. We didn't we didn't just decide how we wanted to, I, I sort of assumed that we would all just have our own, like, three out of five pancakes or whatever. Like, I mean, for me, I, I, I probably just wouldn't recommend it if you're. Yeah, I, I would I still am slightly on the side of not recommending it. Well, I noticed IMDb has a 6.9, and I thought that was low. I thought it should be higher than that, but, I personally think, okay, if we were to do a rating system, it would be probably, in line with that to where we can compare it to IMDb's or somebody else's. But, I would, I would give it. The production value wasn't epically great, but it was adequate, visual effects wise and otherwise they, they tried and it worked pretty well. Well, it worked well enough for me. a for a low budget 2009 pick. I would say that it's pretty good. Yeah. especially with water. Is your visual effect. That's tricky to do. So I would, I would just based mostly on, story and the cleverness of it all. I'd, give it more like, 8.7 on my shit. 8.7. Where would you put, fucking The Godfather or whatever that was off. Podcast over here. So. All right, well, maybe when you see some some of those, it'll re refresh. I'll press refresh on your rating. All right. 8.7 is that is that, is that on an 8.6 to 10 scale or what is that. Yeah. It's like no no no no. You guys had me on the European. No no no you you definitely. And I don't say it for purposes of the podcast. You for sure. Even if we were just like chilling, hanging out or whatever, I feel a lot better about the movie talking to you about it. I feel you guys appreciation makes my appreciation go up. So I'm I'm definitely more down with the film because literally before I was just like, Matt, whatevs. But I can I can see how now that there's more to it. And the fact that you guys who are like horror aficionados are not disappointed by this as a horror movie makes me sort of, you know, look at it different because my point of view was I don't like horror, and it wasn't particularly scary. So I figure if I was a horror buff, I would hate this movie. But your appreciation for it has increased mine. So I'm definitely more like leaning towards like almost recommending it, but 8.7 or whatever out of you're saying this out of ten, right? Not out of 100. I mean, okay, well cool. Good for you. So Kelsey. Well, I, I do, really appreciate that comment because that, you know, being a big proponent of horror and that it's not always the typical of what people view is horror. So it does make me happy to, to kind of talk about it and be like, oh, yeah, there are these other layers or these other aspects. And so much in horror is metaphorical. Whereas if you're watching it strictly, this is really exactly what happened, nothing more. I can see how it'd be like, okay, that was that was all right. And again, I think it's an imperfect film. It has its flaws. But that's, that's cool that this other conversation was like, okay, I can see how it has this other work that I didn't see at first. Yeah, for sure, but but I, I need to hear. I need the number now. All right. So little in between, I'd say, I want to say about a seven Okay. For me at seven, 7.5. Somewhere in there. To me, yeah. Like there are points that are a little, a little messy, some things that kind of don't make sense. And I think I had a really good potential, a lot of really good insight. It was very intriguing throughout. I loved the kind of even just like the Ghost Ship creepy atmosphere, but I also like that type of stuff. But yeah, there was a lot of things that were really interesting. I love psychological, so that aspect was interesting. If anything, I wanted them to go a little further. But overall, like, I think very solid. And I'll give them extra points for, you know, being unique and trying to do something powerful and relatable through horror. And, and to that point, I have to say that I really do love it when a movie is able to show how someone could become completely irrational, and yet in their own mind, be rational. That is a real trick to do for a movie to do with an audience, because we see, unfortunately, headlines in the real world about people doing crazy things and very violent things, destructive things, things that we just have no idea how it could get in their head. So when a movie is able to show someone getting into that headspace and you can see how they could get there, I really do appreciate that. I don't think it 100% worked in this one. I could see them working. I could see the writer director really, you know, pushing it and trying to get us there. I don't think it was 100% successful. Speaking of lost, which you mentioned earlier, I, there's, I think it was in season three, if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while since I've seen it. And it's been infinity since you've seen it. You should check it out. It's not. It's also not super successful. It takes. It takes a long time. And it does get worse season by season. But sometime in season three, it really showed us how, the Hugo character, the big guy, how he could how he could become mad, crazy and, and, and do some destructive things when, when a movie or TV show really does that, that that's really great. It's a great trick. I wish I had more examples off the top of my head, but, I like the fact that this movie tried. And, I think I got part of the way there. So, so yeah, if I had to give it a number, 4.99. Wow. That's weird because I, I was tempted to write down what my prediction prediction. Oh, we should have done that. Well, next time, from now on, we'll do predictions. I was like, 4.5. No, 4.7. But I think if you averaged out all of ours, right, 6.9. So I guess that makes sense. Yeah. So yeah. I think IMDb's, rating system tends to be, harsher than most others, anyway, Do you have a closing statement for the segment? The statement is the segment is over All right, guys, it's time to play our favorite game. T.K. hates horror movies, and I wanted to start off this segment with the trip down memory lane. I think it was like 2003 or 4. 2002, 2003, when the ring came out. American version. friend of mine at work. Friend of mine at the time. She, She took me no longer. Friends. You know, like. Yeah. A little bit of foreshadowing here. She is, in fact, no longer my friend, but she she did take me, along with a bunch of other friends to see the ring. And, in fact, there was enough of us that we were on two rows, and she was in the row in front of me. And I had not wanted to go in keeping with my longstanding policy not to watch horror movies. But it was rated PG 13, and, and I thought, what the hell? So get there. Within about, I guess, 5 to 7 minutes of the movie, you guys remember it? Oh, yeah. You got the Blu ray? I do. Okay. So within about 5 to 7 minutes, there's a scene with a couple of parents or whatever, and they're talking about maybe their kids or something. And then there's a smash cut to interior closet. This girl super fucked up. I don't know something. You know, she got, like, hit by lightning or whatever. Hit by the by the witch of the ring or whatever it is. She was, like, charred and blackened or whatever the fuck. Super fucked up. And her head falls off and then smash cut back to the parents. And it was at that moment that I was like, and I'm out. And I just ducked my head down. I did what I used to do when I was a little kid. I ducked my head down and I kept it down for the remaining running time of the film. Wow. And, the next day, my friend, is talking to me at work. Is like, remember, the scene at the end where it seemed like everything's cool, but then, like, this girl, whatever did whatever. And I was like, I don't remember that now. She said, we just went last night and I'm like, we did go last night. That's the part where you're right. However, I did not see the film. As I was, just looking down 95% of the movie So what I wanted. The reason why I bring it up is because I want to start off this, segment by asking you, What the fuck? Like, why why does the MPAA don't call us MPAA, give out these PG 13 s like they're fucking candy to, like, pretty scary movies. Like, would. Let me ask you this. Did that moment when the first time you saw it freak you out? I was, I think I was around 13, just the age I was getting super into horror right when that came out. So I think I was still that was still the point where I could be, like kind of spooked or affected, but I still loved it. Well, it definitely was very jarring. It was one of those where it hits you and you feel this, rush afterwards. It's stimulating. But I think it was more of the the dinger of the music, just like, this piercing, whining sound that they give whenever something like that happened. The score was done by Hans Zimmer, which, had some very beautiful, melodic piano in it, but, I don't know if I've heard anything else he's done that was horror, but it was definitely very haunting and effective. And whenever something like that happened, they might even be the score so much as sound design as they call it. Or just Closer to a sound effect than than score. But, it's the jarring ness of that which I think, unfortunately, is leaned on a bit too heavily by horror films as a substitute for a story when they can just build up tension with, sounds and music. But, it definitely freaked me out. But, in a way that was oddly pleasant at the same time. Right. So you is there some type of is it true you people get endorphin rush, like when they see, like, these super scary moments that are jumpy? Not anymore. I think I'm too. I'm too like, I guess not just maybe desensitized, but, like, I don't I don't know, I know I'm watching a movie, so I don't know, maybe it's just like knowing it's not real. Like if I go through a haunted house, for example, I'm a little I still I'm just smiling most of the time. But occasionally, you know, if you're not expecting it, you'll kind of jump a little bit. But yeah, I don't know if it's like, kind of like a safe space to explore fears in a way. So I, I view it more as from a storytelling perspective and kind of just deeper things about the human experience and, you know, metaphors, I guess I'm, I do have very high standards for my horror. I wanted to do a lot and there's just there are the horror films that are just cheesy, bloody fun. And those can be great, too. But yeah, I don't know. I don't really go into them looking to be scared anymore. If anything, it's more disturbing or, sort of. It's more like imagining yourself in that situation would be horrifying. And how effective they tell that story. You know, it's an interesting you mentioned, haunted houses. I'm actually okay with haunted houses. I have no problems because I know as a legal matter, they can't touch me. It's when it's when they make you sign waivers. Oh, yeah. I've been to some of those where you're basically signing your death away. You're like, all right, let's go have some fun. I mean, even just the action of signing a waiver and having it put in front of you, meaning like, you know, you you you have no recourse. Yeah. I mean, first of all, when. So you've been to those kind of haunted houses. I have, so I believe it was. I think it's kind of. Yeah. The 17th door. That's the most extreme I have been to. And that is the most extreme. I will go to, there are some that are straight up legal torture and those I don't even find appealing. I mean, it's that's you can make a whole movie about that. That would be very interesting about the mindset of, I think both the people. I mean, no, no shame to anyone if you if you if that's your thing. But, I think just the mindset of wanting and signing up for that and the actors who want to do that to other people, but that's a whole other, conversation. But that's at least 18 doors. Yeah. 17th door. What? A lot of it was just like an immersive play, almost that you were a part of. The acting was really great. The story, it was really great. And my favorite thing about that one is that it was really, meant to be like a positive, uplifting experience, believe it or not. Because it was all about trying to get you to, like, face your Fears. It was a lot of stuff that was like common, fears, like claustrophobia. I don't know, bugs, you know, different things like that. And each room is a very short amount of time, like a minute. So I think it's like giving you a taste of those fears. And, the actors that are out there kind of encouraging you, you're like, yeah, you're a badass. You got this. We can freak out. Like, like the year that I went, it was set up as, like, this kind of, like, experimental, fucked up, prison. Asylum. Sort of a deal. You know, where all these, like, very horrible things are happening behind the scenes and very entrapping. And it was you, this main girl who you're seeing brutalized, you're all, like, in it together and breaking out. So in a lot of ways, I, I feel like it was meant to be like a positive experience about facing your fears. The one thing is, I did get electroshock, and that was not okay. I had literally had welts on me, and, that was not planned, right? So. Yeah, like, they they did. So I've been to some where it's like you get like a slight little shock. It's not a big deal. Kind of hurts for a second. You move on. That it was there. Voltage was too high. And the one I was sitting in, for that room, it was sort of like, sort of like a jigsaw, sort of a thing where everyone's hooked up to chairs and there's these lights that go off and you're each supposed to choose a light, and we don't really know. Basically, they told us, oh, if you if you see a light go off, hit it. So I'm thinking you're just like choosing. And there was I guess other people in the group was like, you know, almost like memory. Make sure you hit every single one. And the people that hit as many of those buttons as possible did not get shocked. At first I wasn't shocked, and I hear the people across from me just screaming bloody murder. And I'm like, what's going on there? And then I felt it. It was very bad. It hurt quite a lot. I was like shaking at that point and I was I'm room like ten, 13 somewhere in there out of 17. And I'm like, damn, I hope it doesn't get more intense than this. But I kind of just kept on going. And, that was for sure the worst of it. That was the only one for me that was like too much. And there were rooms that were, like, fun where you, like, the room is spinning and, yeah, it was more about the acting and immersion and everything. But yeah, that's that's definitely as far as I would go. I don't need to like, pay to, you know, induce, kidnaping torture scenario. I, I'm not like, I like, I like my horror fictional Oh, right. And that actually, that's another good point is, like, it's more fun when you know it's fictional if you're watching, like, whatever faces of death or like, when we were in high school, Steve, like, what was the what was like the big thing where they had like actual death stuff? Was it like Faces of Death? Yes. Yeah. And that was like, nobody had a good time with that, Right. Unless you're depraved and got off on that sort of thing. Right. Yeah. But that's, that's been I've, I've been over that phase for weeks now. No. But like, you know, as long as because that that's sort of ties in with how come I'm okay with most haunted houses is because I know that it's fine. Yeah. I'm gonna jump out. And the worst that they're going to do is kind of get in your face for a moment and then back away and then keep doing their job. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's it's, it's probably, like, maybe more fun to see it when you know that it's just just a movie. But I don't know, what horror movie would you, each of you think is like the most effective horror movie that you've ever seen? I mean, I'm just going to go with my favorite. I'm not claiming it's the best. I mean, it's hard to say what is the best horror movie ever or, you know, because there's so many different layers and you can say, oh, cinematically or story wise or, you know, whatever. My personal favorite is A Nightmare on Elm Street. No. Okay. Classic. Ooh. So don't want to make it more complicated than needs to be, but there was, do it on a three tiered basis and, divide it up by production value. I have this whole category of, like, when I was a kid. And when you're a kid, things are more effective on you. And, I can think of some haunted house films which, like The Legend of Hell House, which is my favorite, haunted house film. Where it was just so terrifying to see the characters walking through a mansion with just a flashlight and it just black, and there's nothing happening but the flashlight might shine onto some old statues or some paintings or whatever. And it just it was like, what's. I just wanted to to contract my body into a little ball and bring my feet up from under the couch or whatever. So nothing could possibly touch me because I felt like anything could be in that darkness, and my imagination would go crazy. But now watching it, I would think, oh yeah, it's it's kind of, an inexpensive way to, shoot something spooky is just turn off all the lights and just have a flashlight. I might think of it in other terms, but it really freaked me out. And if I were to try to show this film the same scene to somebody now as an adult, they would just. Okay, I'm waiting. For what? What's supposed to jump out or do I miss it? You know? So, the mindset of a child is much different, and it's hard to recapture that level of apprehension, when seeing something now. But I try to put myself in, I suspend reality to the point where I can be immersed in something and give it a chance to have that effect. But you're laying yourself open to, a more pronounced, jump scare or something like that. You're you're more vulnerable that way. And maybe that's the point. As we get older, we tend to put up our defenses more so we don't get jarred or just like, protective mechanism of some kind, but, I think alien, where the first chestburster scene happened, I in my mind, I don't know how I came up with this, but I thought it was supposed to be a comedy. And then my dad somehow informed me, no, this is, I'm it's not a comedy at all. And, when that chestburster scene happened, it was just so terrifying. And, I want to say that's my film that really, is the most powerful. And it still holds up today, actually, effects wise and, story wise, the grittiness of it all. And so for the realism of it, for being a sci fi horror, kind of astonishing how effective it was and still is. So. All right, that brings up another question, because to me, I would think of alien, as a sci fi movie, not a horror movie. And then, you know, horror. Yeah. I mean, what what would you consider to be a horror movie, period? I mean, is horror defined as, as something thematic or is it something specific, like if there is gore, it is horror, or if there is a jump scare, then that counts as it being at least partially a horror movie. I mean, what What would you consider a horror movie to be? What? What would be the factors that would make you think that, oh, this is at least partially a horror movie, I would say doesn't necessarily need gore or jump scares. I think really fear is the core of it. Fear. And I guess, looming threat of death, whether that's, you know, supernatural, it can also be like inner demons is of a especially maybe more so I mean, for a long time, but definitely in a lot of recent horror that sort of like strong aspect where some of it could even be, you know, metaphorical. I mean, I even to me, I guess you, I get it as like a crime thriller, but I would even consider seven a horror movie. It's just. Yeah, yeah. I've seen silence of the lambs. I was I like the movie very much. There was one shot, I think, about maybe two thirds, three quarters of the way through where, the, the cannibal character Hannibal, escapes and he has to do something or feels he has to do something kind of gruesome with, I guess the police officer or something like that that I didn't care for. But other than that, you know, I felt like I was in good hands. I didn't feel like I was going to, you know, jump out of my skin at any moment. I felt it was more like a crime procedural, and that it wasn't, you know, it wasn't too bad, but you would both consider that at least partially to be a horror movie. Yeah. think there's some debate about that one being just more of a thriller, leaning more towards thriller, and technically not being horror. But I think most people, when you ask them, they will categorize it as a horror film, just, I mean, the body horror in it. The, cannibalism. the themes are definitely there both full time with serial killers. I would usually place it in horror. I mean, I guess there's some that are maybe more dramas if they're more just focusing on maybe the early life or how they got to that point or whatever. But I think anything with like, killer or, you know, constant threat of, you know, survival is, I would usually consider horror. Agreed. what? What movie, what movie would you guys consider to be a horror that would surprise most people who would think of it as not a horror at all? Well, there's certainly scenes and films that have been very scary. Even Willy Wonka with Oh my God, people were very terrified of certain scenes and that, but the like, what the fuck was up with that? Like that, that really like that pissed me off more than just scaring me. Like, what are you doing? Like. What is going on there? You guys saw it, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, first time you guys saw it, were you scared by it, or were you, like, too old for it or. I don't remember, but, I can see, it just coming out of nowhere and just being, we're talking about the same scene. I would think where they're going through the tunnel in the boat. Yeah. There's a beheading of a chicken in there. Like a real one. And other just shocking things. It's actually quite a famous scene for that reason. And, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang had a scene with, I think it's the kid catcher or child catcher or something, but he would go around with a big net, and he had this weird pointing, prosthetic nose. And that guy just scared the living hell out of me. When I was a kid. And I don't I don't think I've ever heard anybody mention him, I can only really think of little snippets of films. And that, again, is probably just because I was a kid, like I was talking about earlier. I was 19 years old before I could even watch a commercial for horror movie. I thought you were going to say that because your parents wouldn't let you, but Actually. actually that much of a chicken shit. Yes. Correct. Yeah. No, I, I mean, yeah. Growing up, I just in fact, I had a very weird period of time, when I was a kid, when I was hyper sensitive, and I don't remember exactly why. It probably was some type of, you know, very scary image that I happened to catch in the TV or movie, that, you know, really introverted me and triggered something within me. But from about, I would say the age of 9 to 11, or 12 even, I was hypersensitive to the possibility that there could be something scary, to the point where my, my dad would take me to PG movies or, you know, whatever. And I would still, like be looking down for most of it, thinking that something surely must be coming around the corner. But that was, that was like my mindset for, for years. I was like that. It's almost like the fear of fear. It's interesting. Yeah. I mean I mean it writes itself people. I mean you can just yeah. But that's so, so I've been like that for a long time now. I got out of that, you know, phase. I got out of that phase actually right around the time the movie ghost came out. I remember that with Patrick Swayze movie about a so well, that one actually had a different aspect to it. So this is a movie about Patrick Swayze. He married to Demi Moore, and, Patrick Swayze is, killed, I guess. And he comes back through a medium played by Whoopi Goldberg. And so, the movie is about how Patrick Swayze, his character through the medium, tries to, direct Demi Moore's character to avenge his death or or, you know, finger the guy that did it or whatever. That's a common theme. For ghost, based stories is somebody who dies and is trying to reach out to the living to, you know, bring justice Yeah. killer. And I find that a very tired theme, but it can be done. Well, I thought ghost was fantastic. I don't know what you thought. Yeah. No it was a very good movie. It's definitely a romance at its core. And and that was really the problem I had gone I'd gotten out of my horror ultra sensitivity phase by then. But I was still very, like, shy when my dad would take me to see movies that had romantic themes in them, to the point where my dad noticed that every time there was any type of partial nudity or anything like that, a love scene in a movie that he took me to, my head would go down like, sort of like automatic, like drop, like an anchor. And he noticed, and so, he even brought it up to me at one point, we were driving in his car is like, how are you with, sex in movies now? You, you know, can you watch it? And I'm like, oh, no, are you kidding? I, I, I opened my eyes even wider when I said, like, I'm. And, he's like my boy. No, nobody's like okay, cool. And so I think either that weekend or maybe the next, he took me to see ghost packed, house packed. I'm saying every single seat taken and, sitting next to my dad and then the famous scene comes up. In fact, you, Stevie, might even remember, seeing this scene. The Clay, right. And Patrick Swayze, his hands go over to me more, and they they make love. And, you know, true to form, my head drops down and my dad, like, gives me, like, an elbow to the ribs and is like, hey, watch, learn in a fucking packed house. And he's like, he does not lower his voice. And he, he doesn't do the movie whisper thing. He's, he hasn't gotten that done yet. and I was just like, so mortified. I'm like, all right, I guess I'll be watching Demi Moore fuck Patrick Swayze. He now, anyways, so that was, nothing to do with horror at all. That story is not connected at all to everybody in that. But so, I mean, your your definition is pretty expansive. So you're saying, like so many subgenres. Yeah, I would say pretty expansive. It has to be pretty upside of horror to not be horror. I think a lot of psychological stuff, yeah, it's like, oh, it's actually, you know, has character development or they're exploring things about the character that's not horror. Where if it's related, you know, a serial killer or someone's killing or, you know, fear or monster or something, and it has those elements, usually my instinct to be like, yeah, I would consider that horror. And if someone is like, oh, this is a thriller, I can give them that, okay. But overall, yeah, I would, I would be it more is, just another subgenre of horror. Even I guess you could argue either point for this one. But like Shutter Island even, for example, I find that one horrifying for sure. It was. Did you like Shutter Island? Oh, I loved it. And that and that's a twisty one. I didn't see it, but that's a. yeah. Okay. Well, we'll avoid details, because it that's one where the ending makes a lot of difference to. And things aren't what they seem to be and all that stuff. But yeah, I think also a lot of something about a in particular is like, so entrapping. And if someone decides you're crazy, that's it. You know, and I think that's like one of the most, like, kind of hellish scenarios. Because nothing, nothing you do or say and especially, you know, if you look into like the past where there's been some more, like, violent, experimental approaches and it can get into some pretty fucked up material. Not that it always goes that, you know, that direction, but, I think even just the psychological, the element, it's just like being trapped in in a different way, you know? So, yeah, I could see, like, how you could, say that's horror, but then, you know, if you're like, oh, no, it's a dramatic thriller. It has those elements too. So I would give someone that, but yeah, even for something like that, I would probably argue it. And there was, a time Steven and I, we saw The Sixth Sense together and in theaters, and we sat right next to each other. And I remember, like, jumping out of my chair like maybe 3 or 4 times in the movie. That was probably the scariest movie that I really enjoyed. That's about as much as I can take, I think in fact maybe a little bit more than I can take, but I really liked it. But what I remember the most is sitting there and like jumping and you had zero movement like whatsoever, like no change in disposition for any jump scare at all. That's the usually me too. Is that right. Yeah. I'll be with like someone they'll be like jump in freaking out. I'm like, oh that's nice. That's a nice moment. I mean some people love horror because they love the scary stuff. Like they love to be jumping or whatever. That that's that friend that I was telling you about earlier that brought me to the ring. You know, she loves horror, but she loves it because she likes the adrenaline. She likes getting jumpy, scary and scared and all. That Plus, if you're with a crowd that energy, Yeah. toxic as well. But, there are so many different subgenres of horror that, don't appeal to me at all. I tend to be kind of specific. I like more atmospheric type stuff, like haunted houses and graveyards but I don't necessarily want to see anyone, really So So nice. When people. I can, the movie, triangle that we just saw where somebody just hysterically screaming all the time, it gets very screechy to me. And, I don't really admire cowardice, even though it's something understandable, but I don't relate to somebody because they're hysterical. And sometimes I feel like, filmmakers show someone, particularly terrified. Not because, what they've written is actually that scary. But as a, a method of convincing the audience that this is a scary movie. I would rather be in a film or watching a film that, puts me in an environment that makes me feel threatened and, creeped out. But, doesn't necessarily have anybody there having a panic attack. I, I really just want to slap the shit out of anybody who's doing that, whether they're male or female. But the female voice is particularly pitched in a way that just it's like, and I really don't care for that. It doesn't entertain me, and I don't see how it would entertain anyone, frankly. But, beyond that, it is a, a far back reaching, cliche of just having a screechy woman. And I think, more credit should be given to women than just having them just screaming whenever the slightest, thump happens. I'd rather just see more depth to a character something less cliche happens. So, that's perhaps more of, a quibble. Is that a word? Can I say that? Yeah, yeah, according to Scrabble. Well, let me, comment on that real quick. Yeah, I think that was maybe kind of how maybe the Roots of Horror started out with you know, the, I guess the, The Scream Queen then was just someone screaming in terror who needed to be rescued. And I, we've definitely moved away from that as a genre a lot. But there can still be some of it. But yeah, I, I definitely whether. Yeah, female or male, you don't want someone who's just a total victim the whole time, like, it's not really if, you know, horror films are a metaphor for, you know, this hunger and fight in life. It's, that's just giving up, you know? So, yeah, I definitely you can have that moment of fear and vulnerability and not knowing how to fight because that's real. But then get into gear, start fighting for your life at some point. Yeah. There's, there's a futility to it. I can see how somebody who is being attacked might have as a, a knee jerk reaction, like a yelp or something, or a gasp, but, there are much more productive things you can do to promote your survival than to just scream at whatever's staring at you. It just seems kind of like a stupid thing to do at the time when you're, being threatened. So I kind of wanted to end this segment by asking each of you, do you have recommendations for horror films that somebody like me could appreciate without getting nightmares? Are there really quality horror films that are not that scary? Not, super gory and don't involve unhappy torture things? Well, you're a comedy guy, right? That's your your thing. Yeah, but I can appreciate, you know, a humorless movie that's done well, okay, well, I was going to I mean, The Godfather is not a barrel of laughs. Ghostbusters has both comedy and, scares. Okay. Ghostbusters is pretty mild. I can I can go I can take it up one more notch from Ghostbusters, Yeah, I think so. A lot of horror comedies are really bloody. I've not. I've noticed that too. Like, I'm like not watching them obviously, but but in their description. And I was, telling Steve earlier that, that, you know, I'm the type of guy that would actually read and have read plot summaries on Wikipedia for movies like saw, for example, that I'm really interested in, but would never, ever watch them. to your point, I agree, I've read so many summaries of movies that are quote unquote comedies, but yeah, they're really like gory. they make it gory over the top and it's like fun in tone. Or they'll be like a lot of, like kind of snarky, fun, witty banter, but they are really bloody and almost, I feel like almost made for people who love the genre and like a lot of them, like a lot of 80s throwback sort of stuff. So it kind of helps if you already love some of those films in the first place. also put in, interview with a vampire. There's some, just lovely, scenery and, actors and it's kind of funny and, but also, it just has like a dark humor to it and also that atmospheric element that I was going on about. I just like being in that setting it does have, some moments. It's obviously vampire based. You're going to see blood there too, but, I just like the, social commentary that it has. And, I just like the feel of it. And I think it's probably deal with it. Cool. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I dealt with triangle. I mean, triangle had a lot yeah, that's true. And I didn't I wasn't repulsed by triangle. Should shoot he stabby stuff is, you know, so blood is something you're actually okay with, or is it just the means by which blood, is extracted? So, yeah, Like over the live. It's like more over the top. That's where it's too much. Or maybe that makes it more comedic, where it doesn't seem real. right? Yeah. More cartoonish. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that when I saw triangle, the parts where I felt the most uncomfortable watching it, and not in a good way, I don't, you know, if I don't feel comfortable watching a movie, then I'm not enjoying it. But the parts that I felt the most uncomfortable were the scenes in the hallway where I could picture, picture, a character maybe coming right in front of the camera. And I felt that that was kind of actually, if I was into horror, like a missed opportunity, like for a jump scare there, like, they I don't feel like movie is really, Take advantage of the opportunity for characters to come right in front of the camera, in front of your face. I mean, am I wrong? I mean, is that is that a trope that that is used very often? Is it already like passé cliche, like nobody does it anymore because it's, they usually come from behind more than it. I think the fact that it is such, it's so overused jumpscares nowadays, they probably expect it to be more earned than just, a movie filled with jump scares, People for of the camera. But, it's still just very prevalent. I'm sure it's, it's it's funny, that we're talking because I feel like since I haven't seen almost any horror movies at all, only the very, very gentle ones. Gentle ones, that my sense of what would be a good horror movie is very, like 50 years ago. Like, hey, guys, wouldn't it be cool if there was a guy that, like, totally came in front of the camera but didn't work? Okay, good. So this is a good start. So thank you guys. And I think we'll we'll we'll end our our hates horror movie segment there. And that brings our podcast to a close as well. Stevie Ray, as always, from the moment I first met you, you've been my guiding star, Kelsey, thank you so much for doing this with us. Yeah, thanks for having me. Had a great time. Really, really appreciate it. Fantastic stuff. And, from both of you and especially me, if I don't mind me saying so. 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