Father's Day Special | The Empire Strikes Back and The Shining

Hello, horrorphiles. In this episode, we dissect two Father's Day favorites: The Empire Strikes Back and The Shining.

This is Dissecting Horror: Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature with Kelsey Zukowski and Steven Aguilera.

We hope you find it in your cold, black, withered hearts to join our Society of Grotesquery and Loathing and keep our podcast suffering onward:

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/dissectinghorror
PayPal one-time donation of any amount: https://paypal.me/dissectinghorror
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dissectinghorror
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dissectinghorror
Kelsey Zukowski: http://kelseyzukowski.com
Steven Aguilera: https://www.stevenaguilera.com

Photo credit: Slevin Mors

Transcript

0:03

Hello, horrorphiles. You're listening to Dissecting Horror. Examining the anatomy of fear in film, television and literature. In this Father's Day episode, we resurrect an old, dead recording from June 2022, before Dissecting Horror was brought to life. In that, we dissect both The Empire Strikes Back and The Shining. I'm writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. I'm filmmaker Steven Aguilera. In our society of grotesque and loathing, if you will. I will. And we hope you will subscribe for more, won't you? All right. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to the. Nothing to see or Hear podcast. I'm your co-host, TC. I'm an entertainment lawyer alongside, as always, filmmaker Steven Aguilera. Plus returning as our special guest for this episode. Writer and performer Kelsey Zukowski. Kelsey, thanks so much for joining us again. Happy to be here again. Today is our very special Father's Day episode, where we shine a light on all the movies featuring dads and salute all the dads who took us to see feature movies. They never complained about giving birth to us and we love him for that. For this Father's Day episode, we are going to do a full, legit review of the classic dad flick Star Wars Episode five The Empire Strikes Back. As always, we'll try to guess each other's ratings with perhaps a thought or two about movie ratings in general, and will be debuting a new segment on the podcast. Steve and Kelsey try to convince TC to see a horror movie. all that, plus our dads stories. But first, this podcast is brought to you by our friends at Dollar Sock Club who invite you to experience the ultimate and comfort, style and community. How it works is simple. You put a single dollar bill in any old pair of socks you got lying around, mail it to the name and address provided, and within 5 to 7 business days, you'll receive your very own pair of gently pre-loved socks from one of our other carefully prescreened members. Wear your socks proudly for one week, then put another dollar in there and off she goes. And while it makes for the perfect Father's Day gift, the folks at Dollar Sock Club remind you that this is something you'll want to give everyone for every occasion. Christmas. Hanukkah. Al-Fitr. And can you picture the face on that special someone when he or she sees what you got them for Secretary's day. Signing up is easy just to an internet search for online sock community. Pay the initial monthly membership fee of €42, and you'll be wearing other people's socks in no time. So with that, guys, let's talk about dads. And for me, co-hosting a podcast about movies on Father's Day is perfect because one of my favorite parts of growing up was having my dad take me to see a movie almost every week. so I'm going to take a step back into the Wayback Machine and talk about how my folks split up when I was a kid, because I keep hearing from other people. How traumatic it was and, you know, stuck with them for a long time. For me, it was the opposite, opposite experience. It was. In fact, I even remember I was like 5 or 6 years old and my dad put me in in his car, started driving, and then after, like a long silence, he was just like, I got a townhome in Panorama City and I'm like, no way can I visit. He's like every Sunday and two weeks in the summer, pending judges discretion. oh boy. And that was it. That was everything that was ever said about my parents divorce. So, so beginning then for about like ten years, he took me like, we hung out every Sunday. And I would say at least half the time he would take me to a movie. And I ended up getting, like, super excited whenever we'd be at, like, his house in the afternoon and he'd say, like, hey, hand me the calendar section, because that's I mean, we're talking about the 80s, early 90s. That's how no internet back then. That's how you fucking calendar section. Which, by the way, I don't even to this day know why they called it that. But events. Yeah probably events. So yeah. So whenever he would say like, hey, hand me the calendar section, I knew I got excited. Like I was like, Pavlov's dog. Like I knew, I knew we were in and we were going to have like a good time no matter what it was. In fact, a couple of years ago, I started putting together a list of movies my dad took me to. Just off the top of my head. I came up with 73 movies over like a ten year period, something like that. And and there has to be way more than that. But that's that's what I could remember. And that was like super special to me. So I'm, I'm glad to be able to tip my cap to, to my dad for, for introducing me to, to all those pornographic movies, among others, among many others. Anyways. But Steve, I know you your folks split up too. Didn't they? Yeah, it was, I think I was 11, I was trying to do the math, I'm not sure what age is. When go from elementary school to junior high, that's what, 11 or 12? 12, I want to say. So it was around then. I think it was that summer in between elementary school and junior high, but they call it middle school now, I think. So they don't. dated me a bit, but yes. So I don't have anything funny to say about that, unfortunately. But your dad didn't put you in the car and tell you he's. He just bought a house in Panorama said no, we were actually building a new house and it wasn't finished yet. And then we went to live in it and there were no windows and the walls had no insulation. It was freezing. This was up in the Bay area, my dad is quite the character, and it's so easy for me to just dive off in different tangents about, you know, he's an artist and so forth. you should know, by the way, that like my mom just listened to our first podcast like earlier today and her only comment was, your father let you watch ghost? Everything? we talked about extreme haunts. right? Yeah. That's funny. does get back to them. Just so you know. I met your mother a couple of times. I think she was dropping you off or picking you up from someplace. thought you had, like, a seven season episode arc on. No, I actually met your dad to once. Do you remember when it was, It's pertinent to this podcast. is it? Oh. Oh, were we watching, like, one of the prequel movies? Yes, it was at the Chinese theater. Okay. It was. must have been two attack Yes, yes, I was charged with holding seats for you guys. While this line around the block to see the film on opening weekend was taking place. And good luck with that, by the way. I got swamped within minutes, but you guys showed up okay, well, thanks for not saving the seats or whatever, some sort of comment. And then you go, oh, by the way, this is my dad. And he goes, it was sort of this perfunctory nod and I saw the resemblance, but it was like kind of a less jolly version of you. But he was pleasant enough. And then you guys went off to the front row, I think were the last two seats were. And I never saw either of you again, I think for the rest of the night, I mean, yeah, well, it's true. I mean, I've often said that I look like if my dad fucked my mom. Yeah, that says it all, doesn't it? Well, were you going anywhere with that question to me about my parents? Oh, no. Oh, but I was going to ask you, are your folks split up? They are splitting up right now. Wow. Just wait. Just for this did they give you the speech like, we still love you and it's not really about you? No, I kind of just talk to them both different separately about it, but it was, you know, I definitely support them going their own ways and all that, so. Well, see, I was going to call you a normie, but but now you're you're in our club. Welcome. Actually, I remember a couple that was divorcing. They set down their kids, two of them, I think it was like eight and 12, something like that. And they said, look, you know, this is going on where it was splitting up. and the older one was like, oh, can I get the your bank accounts transferred in my name then. And, and mom was was like, no, you're thinking of death, sweetie, this is. I think it was you, Steve, that came up with the idea of Empire for our Father's Day episode. I have to say that was, like, pretty clever. And I want to set up our review this way. I saw the movie. It was a little bit before my time. I guess as far as seeing it in theaters, I do have a vague recollection my dad taking me to see the next one. Ewoks adventure. Whatever the what was return of the Jedi. Return of the Jedi. Yes, correct. At the center. I'm a dumb in Hollywood. But Empire. No Empire I saw, like, I think on TV or VHS or something like that. Like in the 90s, I was already like, maybe in my teens or 20s or something like that. It was it was later. And so that's when I saw it. Steve, when did you first see Empire? When it came out, actually, about when my parents got a divorce. And then Kelsey, when did you see him fire this afternoon. All So. Yeah, that's kind of what also later for me. Yeah. It's kind of what I wanted to get at. So you are a Star Wars denier or what has been your relationship with a and no no judgment here. This is this is a safe space. Yeah. No, no, I think it's definitely interesting. You know, we had the, you know, two horror fishing and then looking on the outside in. And now now I'm the one So yeah I think it's I think it's a cool conversation for sure. So even though Father's Day episode, my mom was really the big Star Wars fan, she's a big like sci fi aficionados, and I think I'm very, very selective of sci fi I like. And I tend to not like a lot of stuff set in space. So there's just, you know, things about it that just like I had seen. So I never seen this film. I think it was more like some of the sequels. I were like on in passing and I don't know, I wasn't, I was just like, oh, I'm not quite sure that's my thing. So I'm not really going to look further into it. But then it was maybe just like about a little over a year ago around Christmas, actually watched new Hope with my mom. weights. So last Christmas was the first time you saw the original Star Wars? Probably, like in full. Okay. Yeah. Like yeah. I was going to say in pop culture, it's it's so infused. yeah. Like you're definitely familiar with characters and although I am very, very beginner level, there's a lot of places and people I probably don't have the right terminology for right now. So bear with me on that. But yeah, I had never like, really? Yeah. I was always kind of like, oh, Star Wars isn't my thing. But then admittedly, I'm like, well, you know, the ones that seem to be the films that got people into Star Wars that they really love are the ones that I haven't seen, and probably the ones I had seen more. Are some of the sequels that people don't necessarily like as much, as far as I understand. So I'm like, you know what? Let's give it a chance. So yeah, just maybe a little over, maybe not. I don't think it was this past Christmas, but the year before that was when I had just watched A new Hope. And then, you know, you guys like, let's do this. Let's, let's get this next one. So then I rewatched A new Hope yesterday and oh good for you. All right. That's commitment. Tried freshen myself up on the on the world. commitment to the podcast. So I have a question for you. And before that Steve definitely. You know, do not forget to include the word spoilers on the description. We're going to go deep into Empire here. Yeah, 42 years and I feel like well, you know, I don't really think there should be a time limit. There's always going to be new generations of people experiencing the film, or just people who just haven't caught. I've never seen The Godfather, for example, as we keep going on about. So I don't think there should ever be like, oh, it's been out for ten years, so we can spoil it now. Okay, but but explain to the audience, please, your own personal traumatic experience regarding spoilers and empire. Well, okay, so I had actually a set of spoilers with regards to that film and return of the Jedi for Empire. I was out in this long line. Time was with my parents and my sister was with us, and some of her girlfriends scampered up, having seen the film a couple of times already, and they were all excited, bubbly, just started blurting out the most egregious spoilers for the film. Yeah. Luke Skywalker gets his hand cut off and you see this robot hand and blah blah blah blah blah, and and Darth Vader's Luke's father, you know, it's like, oh my God. And that was before the word spoilers was a thing that everybody just no, don't don't get me spoilers. and by the way, to that point, I have to say, I look at old episodes of Siskel and Ebert on YouTube and I am shocked at like, how cavalier they were about spoiled did not give a shit. Like it wasn't until like very, very late in their run like mid, mid late 90s that they even like mentioned, you know, not giving away too much or whatever, but they, they just fucking threw it out there like, like nothing It's kind of surprising. I was a big Ebert fan especially. And like, I don't know, he's so big on like the experience that each individual has in a movie and but he does. I guess you don't get to have your own experience. You get to have my experience. Yeah, yeah. You've noticed that too. Okay. So so I have to ask you, did you know that the relationship between Luke and Vader before you saw Empire today? Yeah. Okay. So it wasn't when we said Empire was going to be the film we're reviewing for Father's Day. You already got the significance. Okay. I was because we think have gone into my mind from a pop culture. Yeah. Osmosis. Well, TK and I were trying to figure out a way to convey to you why we chose this film, in case you asked. And I think his initial thought was that, oh, it's father a father favorite or something like that. in case you didn't know enough to try that. Yeah, well, I figured, I mean, so the movie Tommy Boy with Chris Farley has that scene where he, he's talking into that electrical fan saying, look, I am your father. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a thing. Yeah, like some of the most, like, big iconic quotes and things like. I definitely know don't necessarily know the full context, you know. But yeah. So and you probably knew who Yoda was and Obi-Wan Kenobi, just through people talking about them, referencing them as the philosophical archetypes that they are in in real world scenarios. I haven't seen that that Disney Plus series, but I know Baby Yoda. Yeah, my four year old nephew knows Baby Yoda, right? So Grogu is his name. His actual name? Yeah. So yeah, that like, we didn't want to spoil you by saying that this is why we chose Empire for this. And and when I actually suggested the film to TK, it was through a text and it was almost a joke, like, what movie should we review for Father's Day? And I suggested Mr. Mom. Yeah, something wholesome like that. But yeah. So anyway, I, in my mind envisioned you watching that moment, and the line is technically, no, I am your father, not Luke on your father. And I expected you to go. Oh, and then laugh out loud. That's why we're reviewing this for Father's Day you wouldn't do a whole time. There was no. It was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, there it is. Okay. All right. Well, that's our thunder Okay. Well, did you like it? I liked it more than a new Hope. So basically where I'm at with Star Wars right now is I appreciate things about it. Definitely a lot of the themes and you know, I am a big like fantasy band. So I can see like where even, you know, maybe some more recent films like some similarities and all that. I think there's something about it that doesn't, like, totally connect to me. Like, I don't know the language or the world just isn't quite, like, totally pulling me in. And I like a lot of the characters, but I'm not like, super invested. So maybe I'm just not there at that point. But yeah, overall I enjoyed it. It's felt a little a little darker. I think Yoda might be my favorite, so I appreciated that. That addition I definitely like, you know, the the wise sort of philosophy and, you know, kind of getting, you know, the background on Jedi and you know what? What is like, you know, the, the pureness of the Jedi and even getting a little bit a hint of where a Vader kind of started and the hint of, I mean, we know what he is now, but it was like, what? Okay. How did he go from A to B and what might have that looked like. So that was kind of like an interesting just to think about. But yeah, overall I think I appreciate it more than I'm like, oh, I loved it, you know. Well that was curious as to your take on what you're just saying. The Dark Side were very much horror fans. And I thought, well, how much is going to appeal to you? Darth Vader is my favorite villain of all time. And I know you've dipped your toes in Harry Potter. Yeah. So you're probably more loyal to Bald Upon or whatever his name is. Don't say his name. Yeah, that's. Do you actually feel a little bit of guilt or shame when you say his name out loud? Like somehow when you were a kid, maybe you you believed the law, that you should never say his name out loud. Or do you Do you know what I'm talking about? Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself, as Hermione would say. wow, mic drop right Well, no. but no, not really. I'll say it. There was a survey. I think it was probably seven years ago online, where greatest villains of all time were ranked. And I said, Voldemort, Voldemort, the silent Voldemort. Voldemort, okay, he was ranked number one. Oh, wow. And I thought, that's very disturbing. It should be Darth Vader, who I think was number two, because I'm obviously just in that that camp. But, smelling a crossover. Well, I part of me wonders. I'm sure fan films have been made. Like if they had a battle, who would win Darth Vader versus Voldemort? And they're both essentially magicians. I mean, if you took the light saber and the wand away, they'd still have magic or space magic. And it's a more crude, simplistic magic that Vader employs where you're just going to choke the shit out of you and, you know, throw at you and, you know, it's more brutal. Whereas there's more of a a flowery approach in the part of world and speaking, you know, Latin phrases Voldemort flowery. I suppose. So know if that quite fits. Okay. Well maybe sort of a like he's kind of like akin to the dark wizard Hitler or something. Yeah. Okay. I Hitler was an outstanding artist as a youth. Let's not forget that. You can cut that out by the way of Noted. But I think there is a very strong esthetic to Vader's look, the shiny, gleaming armor knight. Kind of a thing, like a Dark knight. I think he's he's quite commanding looking. And his voice and his breathing. There's strong. intimidation factor that he has, which I've respected and really loved. I like Vader's overall look over Voldemort. Appearance. The dark alone, the dark Lord. Actually. What the Darth Vader is a dark Lord too. So yeah. Anyway, so you you don't necessarily invest yourself into the dark side of the force in a way that I would, because you're horror background, you're propensity to darkness. I mean, there was definitely like an interesting element there. I again, like it almost interested me more thinking what those like in between years or that transition was of like, I think he's a very good, like you said, very like cloaked mysterious. Like there is like definitely a or of mystery there. But I almost see it as like he just this overall sinister like force works and makes sense and you know, does a lot for the film. I guess I didn't get like the layers of who he is as a villain, which usually is what interests me most in villains, and maybe that comes in future films. I don't know, Well, the one before that, A new Hope. He was more of a henchman. He wasn't really as fleshed out of a character as he is even in Empire. But the prequels, which are the ones I think you've glimpsed bits those are all about Vader. When he Anakin Skywalker, when he was, before he turned to the dark side, and you see him as a little boy. And then the one that we saw, he was a teenager when I met your dad. see, like, I think even some of those later sequels, I was probably, like, maybe a teenager or like it was. And it was one of those things where, like, my mom probably was watching it and I was just kind of in passing, watching some here or there. So even I probably don't have that good of a memory of, like what? Everything that went down in them. Well, when you say all that, I think the fact that I've never had a cup of coffee, for example, and there's no I know I'm still I'm trying to process that that. It's true. Like, like never, never have had cup of coffee, never been curious, like, what is this substance? Well, okay, so I love the smell of coffee. Yeah. Same I love coffee ice cream. No. I love the smell of coffee ice cream. But I've chewed on roasted. What do they call coffee beans? Yeah, they're not nuts. They're being so. And they're, they're tasty they originally nuts? And then anyways. will you shut up and let me tell my story, please? So after a while, people would say to me, wow, you haven't had a cup of coffee? And then it became sort of a running thing that I would just maintain that because it was just creating such a fabulous effect every time I brought it up. Yeah. And I was wondering, well, have you not seen Star Wars just because of the shock value it creates when you say, I never saw Star Wars, know what? But if it was just a game that you were playing in yourself, it's more like I've seen bits and pieces and I'm just like, I don't think this is my thing. But then eventually I'm like, yeah, maybe I should give it a full shot. Okay, of espresso, which you should? I did have a cappuccino. Well, all Cappuccinos are very good. It's my favorite. That was in the mid 90s and it was delicious. Coffee is very much an acquired taste. I feel like I used to be disgusted even by the smell of it. And then slowly you. I think it's almost like psychological. Like your body is like, oh, this is doing good things for me. I like this. And of course all the, you know, tasty things you can mix in and all that. The trendiness of it is off putting to me how people they like their special shot of blah blah blah in their mix and they give their long list of stuff to the barista. when I was in my early days of having a job, my coworkers, they would have to have their cup of coffee in the morning. And I saw that as something beyond just the pleasure of enjoying their fine brew. It was an addiction and it was intense. And they were different people before and after they had their coffee and I made. I saw that as a red flag. You know, I'm just I'm not going to go there. It'd be a lot easier for me never to try it, and then to have to live through that degree of being. Dependent on that beverage to get through your morning and day. So it was it started with that. And then eventually I I always thought that, like, if I ever met Angelina Jolie or somebody and she said, you want some coffee? I'm like, okay, that's the moment I'm going to try. Yeah. try it Saving yourself for a hot actress who invites you to have a cup of coffee at Something special like that. Okay. No, but you're right. You do definitely. Once you once you get hooked, you need it. Fair enough. Where were we? Empire. Yeah. How did you like it, Steve? Well, we'll get into ratings, but as far as all the Star Wars films have their pluses and minuses, that is my favorite one. And I think is widely considered the best Star Wars film ever and ever will be. I think I will at least watch one more, wrap up that shot, or at the least, yes, see where I'm at with it. I think you really should, because that that's a trilogy and Empire. It ends off of a cliffhanger. We don't know what's going to happen with Han Solo, and it's the darkest chapter in all the Star Wars ones. As far as the the original films go. you at least have to find out what happens to them. And there are some very memorable characters in return of the Jedi. throw? I mean, I liked a big coming of age fan, so I liked that chapter of like, Luke's journey to and trying to figure out what is past was who he is. Okay, this is what his father is. So that's what I should be, but still kind of peace and everything together and figuring it out. And it definitely felt like he's still at an early stage of that. So I was interested to see like, okay, now where where is he going to go from here and who's going to be is it is it fair to say that you're more intrigued to find out what happens after Empire than you were after Star Wars the first? Yeah. for sure. Yeah. Because because the stuff you're bringing up now is like. I mean, if you loved Empire for that, you're going to really like revenge of the nerds, which, sorry, return of the Jedi. the Jedi. Great. I'm glad they go further there. Yeah, yeah, I when I first saw it, I actually thought it was the weakest of the three. Partially because I felt like there wasn't enough of a story to propel me through that whole movie. There wasn't enough of a through line, and it was a little bit disjointed in the sense that you had, like, different factions of our favorite characters off on different adventures, and one of them featured a very annoying C-3po constantly giving like the odds of, you know, survival or whatever. You know, the math guy. he might be one of my favorite characters. C-3po I like this guy. Yeah. I mean, overall, yes, but but when he's he's doing math. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not. I'm just not down with that. You don't want all the probability odds. Yeah. That's very much Star Trek's. Mr. Spock used to do that all the time. And I think the main reason I an issue with that same C-3po point is because it was done before by Spock I thought, well, that's not very original. And there was some other movie I saw more recently where they did the same thing. I'm like, still doing kicking. gosh, I even know what you're talking about. I've seen it to and it was so blatant and yet I can't remember. Yeah, it'll probably occur to me before we're done here, was it Mr. Mom? No, but I'm laughing to myself. When going over your critique of having first Phoenix, I imagine you being like four and a half years old and your checklist of, you know, what's proper for a, you know, the structure of a film is already there and in place. And there's also an aspect of we'll get into this a bit later, but there's an aspect of everything that the rest of society would naturally draw as a conclusion about a film, whether it was good or bad or whatever, you would have some completely different take on it. And as long as I've known you, like I remember, was it Star Trek First Contact, the one with the the Borg? If you see that that movie, you're not even Star Trek either. Okay, well, it's considered kind of like The Empire Strikes Back and being like the best of the movies for Star Trek The Next Generation. TK was like, yeah, I don't know. I didn't really like it. It and I'm like, why? And I expected him to say, oh, you know, that whole, time travel paradox. It doesn't quite, logically work out because one thing would cancel out the other, you know, something logical like that. And he's like, no, it's because in the beginning, when the Borg go through this wormhole to go back in time, Captain Picard said, follow them in or something. And I didn't think that's something a captain would ever say. And they lost me at this point, and I never would have imagined anticipated anybody using that point as the pivot to which to tune out of a story. it's very much I mean, he's quite a bastard, actually, when it comes criticisms. But, you know, society has uses for everyone, and I use him as like yourself, Kelsey, somebody to bounce my screenplays off of because he will just completely shred it and give me notes on things that like, wow, I don't know how anybody could have approached that as a note for this point in the story, but God bless him, I you know, I yeah, it's there and it helps me to assess what the most critical minds on the planet would do to my story if if I had sent it out to the world before filtering it through to catch these things. I think not surprising to me that the best Star Wars film ever made would be, like analyzed by him initially as being initially, though, but I've seen it a few times and I've come to appreciate it more, especially the last third. And in this case, I kind of admire the movie for breaking with structure, because the third act is not any type of positive resolution. It's the opposite. And they went for it. I mean, they they knew they were doing a trilogy so far. Fine. Fair enough. But nevertheless, to have a standalone movie like that with kind of a downer of an ending like that, where you completely subvert expectations is, I thought was like pretty, pretty courageous and and yeah. And praiseworthy. I ended up liking it about as much as the other two. I think each one of them has like really great, you know, bits to it. Whereas like the prequels don't get me started on the prequels. And really, I think the only other Star Wars movie I liked was episode seven, although you were the one who pointed out when we saw episode seven for the first time, it was it was you who said like, yeah, I like it too. But did they have to make another like a third Death Star, basically. And that didn't even occur to me, Right? Well, I can recall after we actually saw almost every star, actually, we saw the first few Harry Potter films together when they came out too. So we saw the yeah, we we were working on a streak there as well, but that didn't. Well, first of all, you moved to the Bay area, so that made it very difficult. We did see the first one together. Ask me anything from the first Harry Potter. I won't be able to answer you. I don't remember anything from it. It was like 21 years ago or something. Yeah. And then the second one I think we also saw together, and then I think the third one, you had it on DVD maybe. No, I was, I saw it this woman. I was dating Liz at the time. And I remember I told you I saw it with Liz and you were like, oh, yeah, betrayed or something like. Yeah, well, when I knew that Steve had left me for. Right? So I felt marginally bad about that. And I kind of when I said it, I felt like I'd been treachery or something. we did miss, like the third of the fourth one. and I continued that tradition. I also missed the fifth and the sixth and the seventh, part one and the seventh, part two. I have no idea. I mean, so did you only see the first two, then the first two, and I don't remember anything from it. it's so frustrating. People stop then because three is like, really is the perfect combination of a representation of what it kind of becomes. And it kind of goes into that. It's really kind of like the adolescence, like kind of he's kind of breaking out of that. And just a lot of it's probably the one that breaks the mold as far as like the format for sure. And it's definitely one of my favorite of the books and films. But it's I feel like a lot of people are like, okay, first two. Yeah, they were nice, but like kids movies. But the third is the one that's very much not a kid's movie. Like, it gets darker and more complex than what it's going to be. Yeah, So you should really watch that third one. My my memory. In fact, it's kind of in keeping with what we're talking I think it was the first one where the Phoenix comes in at the end as a deus ex machina and just kind of rescues everybody somehow from that big snake. Is that bad? Oh, that's the second one. Second one. Okay, so there was a very slipshod setup for the Phoenix, as I recall, and I didn't catch it. And I know he didn't catch it, but I remember Harry Potter saying something like, of course the Phoenix is always something, something. And TK went. Nobody listening to this. We'll know what I just did. But he just looked at me like, right, that was the most stupid thing I've ever seen in my life. And but I did that non-verbally, right? Right. And I'm looking at the screen. I didn't make eye contact with him. I just remember thinking, stop. Just just go with it. Just just watch the fucking movie. And you had that look in your face, like. Like he looked at me like, oh, shit. Okay. Sorry. And then he went back to watching it. it was funny because I remember every time I see that film, and I have watched it since, I remember trying to look for that setup, which they weekly set up, that should make that moment like, oh, ha! Of course we should have anticipated that the Phoenix would come and rescue whatever. But you were right. And ultimately, I find to my dismay, that many of his criticisms over the years are correct. And I hate him for that, because there were so many times where he was so down on a film, and I thought he was just being just a wet blanket about it. And then over time, I've come to agree with him on most points. And so, yeah, I guess fuck you for that. as you know. But that reminds me of of watching the first Mission Impossible in a theater. When I was in undergrad, a bunch of us went and I thought it was so cheesy and dumb, but I didn't say anything because, you know, I was with a bunch of friends. I'm not going to be like, you know, whatever. Just tear it apart. Yeah. Like, you know, we're trying to have a good time. I'm not going to like, you know, ran on anybody's parade. So I just sat there unhappy watching this really dumb action movie, and we all left. And like my friend Mandy, who was, like, sitting right next, right on my left was like, oh, you're so annoying. And I'm like, what? Like, you hated this movie and like, it brought me down. And I'm like, how? I didn't say it word. And she's like, I felt you. I felt the whole movie. So yeah, I guess I guess I have that sort of like vibe that I give off. I thought we might have saw Mission Impossible chew together. Or at least we talked about it, It's possible. I hated that first one. we saw I shouldn't it possible to was like one of the worst fucking movies. I remember we saw Spider-Man, the first one, Sam Raimi, we were with Michelle, our friend or my friend came with us, I remember just being really annoyed with you because you were like, yeah. Is that right? And she and I were really like, this is really good. I think I made a comment to you something. He goes, I don't hate all movies. I'm like, well, name one. And he was like, oh, I liked I don't remember the movie, but there was some some points about that film which I agreed about. But I certainly have always felt like there's something overly critical of something like, you were traumatized as a kid or something, or you went to some prestigious film school when you were, can I can can I actually let you in on a secret? And I'll explain exactly why I am the way I am. Please, do Most movies suck. That's that's the secret. Yeah. So, I mean, with respect to Spider-Man, I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember it being okay, and Spider-Man two is okay. And speaking of Roger Ebert, he loved Spider-Man two. Yeah, I remember his review on that. Yeah, was all over that. And I remember, you know, that was with Doc Ock, who was played by an actor. His name escapes me, but very good actor, good acting dude. And so I, you know. And what's his name, the other actor, Tobey Maguire. No. Oh, the guy from sideways. No, he wasn't from sideways. This is the greatest movie That's the third one. the one guy plus the other guy. All right, we all have phones. I'm just going to look it up, but it's like the guy with the Danish name or whatever. Or the Dutch name. Oh, I turned off my phone. But anyways, like Willem Dafoe. Oh, so Willem Dafoe is in there. And just the first one, right? Yeah, just the first one. Oh yeah. It was like, wait, I remember him. Demons. All right, all right. And whatever his name is, this who played Doc Ock was in number two. Great casting, all that kind of stuff. But for me, Superman the movie, the original 1978 is just the superhero movie that cannot be topped. And for me, it's like Superman and then nothing like I don't really like, you know, like Thor. The last like, Thor movie was kind of like, you know, at least a little funny with Taika Waititi writing and directing and stuff. It's hard to go wrong with anything he does. So. And have you seen the what We Do in the shadows of the dark or whatever? Yes. I love the movie, the show, the other shows. There was another spinoff, Wellington Paranormal. That's really good. But yes, I love all those. so with at least Thor was watchable. I felt for the most part. But at the end of the day, these superhero movies, it's just like, I'm going to punch you so hard. Oh my God, that was painful. And I'm now going to punch you back so super hard that it's really going to be painful. Oh my God, yes you did. And now I have to punch you back and on and on and on. And everybody punches each other very, very hard. That's the thing the original Superman was my gold standard for superhero films as well, and still is. the fact that John Williams have scored, like almost every movie we've talked about, and they have something good, but it's amazing. It's when they did Superman, not Superman Returns, but the one The fuck was no. Yeah, well, the three villains with the black Lycra. it was the one. The first one with Henry Cavill. Oh, yes. Actually, that's a great example of exactly what I'm talking about that came out in, I want to say 2010, 2011. Yeah, yeah. That was that's a great example of I'm going to punch you hard. I'm going to punch you harder. In the meantime, lots of collateral damage and nothing gets accomplished. Right. And you don't really feel any stakes because they're all indestructible. And they took it to a point where You have, let's say, in the first one, Margot Kidder falls into the crack and she's going to suffocate. And that's like the most amazing, powerful gut punch that you feel. And he just so enraged, he spins around the planet and does whatever. And this one, well, we need, you know, some sort of giant beam, extending up to the sky. There's one of those in every other superhero film, and or like even in Star Wars, one of the more recent ones, instead of just a Death Star, we need 10,000 Star Destroyers coming out of the ice, and each one of them has the ability to destroy a planet. They up the stakes to the point where nothing means anything anymore. It's not realistic. So I think we've lost that human element. Or just. Nothing even matters anymore. There's no heart. And it's just, how can we make it all bigger? And that's somehow going to make a better movie and it never works. Yeah. And not only that, but now that you've reminded me about that, that Henry Cavill movie. It was also that movie was also sacrilege because it tried to set up the whole backstory of Superman all over again, including the time on Krypton and all of that. Basically tried to remake the original Superman, which, just like that, was offensive. And Spider-Man, I mean, that's just a thing in itself. Where do we have to really see the backstory? Every single time they reboot one of these with a new actor? I'm just so tired, I don't care. Let's just get to the action or get to some interesting stories beyond how they came to be. Have you seen Kelsey? Have you have you seen the like, a bunch of Marvel movies? Like, I've not seen a bunch of Marvel movies. Yeah, I'm not a big superhero fan. And what I do like, I feel like I like things more like, I don't know, The Dark Knight that's, you know, kind of a little against the norm, where it's not just like, okay, there's a villain and we save the day and all that more kind of getting into, you know, examining corruption and darkness and humanity. And I love the villains and Batman. I did like that. The Spider-Man series a lot with Tobey Maguire. I think I watched the first Andrew Garfield one, and that's the last Spider-Man movie I've seen I haven't seen your gold standard. I haven't seen the I haven't seen much Superman, to be honest, overall. But yeah, I haven't seen a lot of the more recent. Like, I didn't even really see The Avengers or any of that. So yeah, I'm saying most up to date on this, but I don't know. I tend to be pretty picky. I haven't seen it yet, but I was planning on seeing WandaVision and getting into I did see that. Yeah, How was it? a few people told me it's a little more psychological. So I'm like, okay, that kind of appeals to me more. there is that element of just being more human. There's there's emotion behind. It isn't just trying to stop somebody from invading from some other dimension or whatever. So I think I think you'll like that. I mean, I don't have Disney+ anymore, so somebody said earlier this week, a list of all the different Star Wars series hitting Disney Plus the next like eight months or a year. And there were dozens of series. It's just overload. And I think the superhero fatigue is the same thing. You just and they all dovetail with each other. And so you can't really even distinguish who's movie is who because they're trying to pitch the next one with each one. And it's too much for me. Yeah. That's kind of how even when I'm like, okay, I'll give that show a shot, I'm like, but I'm okay not knowing everything going in. I'm not watching the entire Marvel Universe Yeah. one show. too much. kind of expect you yeah, the investment is just too much. there's there's even a part of me where I don't want to watch or learn sports. It's kind of like the coffee thing, where, like, this day, I've never watched a foot. I don't know how to play football or basketball or hockey or tennis because I have a feeling if I started watching it, then I would get sucked into it. It would just kind of take over my life or somehow be too much of an investment. And definitely the same applies the cannon that you have to learn when getting into superheroes and so forth. But are you still into baseball? consciously cut myself off from it that's just too much time that I could be spending doing other things. Same thing with video games. I just stopped playing them 20 years ago because you don't produce anything at the end of it. You just it feels like you accomplished something to get to that level. But you've really there's nothing that you've left as a result of that for, for posterity. It's just it's just kind of gone. It's very much a false feeling. I think. I'm not really knocking it. I mean, you could say the same thing about watching a movie or whatever, but I would see myself just getting too invested in it and just wasting too much time on it. So I said no. well, anyways, I've got a pretty good bead on where you're at. Ratings was on Empire and I and I can take a sort of stab in the dark. So how do you how do you want to do this? Shell shell? Kelsey and I guess your rating. Steve. And then we'll go around. Around the horn. Okay, I should mention a bit of a spiel about ratings in general after our last one. Yeah. So never having actually rated a film officially, but just thought to myself if it was something I wanted to see or not see, or just looking at other people's ratings. think I've had a bit of a misconception on what it actually means to rate a film, and I think the general consensus is to watch the film and then assess its quality compared to all other films that existed. And there's so many different factors. How well the production value went, the quality of the acting, whatever, whatever the different factors are. And you look at that and you go, okay, this is this is how good it was, this is how well it was made. And then you can say, it was really well made, it's a ten. And if it was really badly made, it would be like a 1 or 2 or something. Well, that's not what I did, and that's not really how I approached ratings. Instead, for me, it's not how good was it or how well it was made, it was how much I liked it, and that you would think, oh, it should be the same thing, but it's not. It's like. I was going to say crack cocaine. That would be a bad example. Let's go with pizza. Okay. How good is it for you or how well it was made? It's usually like a 4 or 5. But then I'm really glad. Now you went with pizza. How much did I like it? Or how much do I like it? Pizzas at ten. So the quality of it and how much you like it can be two very different things. There's a famous bad film called troll two. Have you seen it? Oh yeah. It's got to be a 1 or 2 in terms of how bad badly it was put together, but it's totally a nine. It's a lot of fun if you're watching with the right people and the right It's the most entertaining thing. Exactly. It's it's how much do I like it? It's nine. when I was rating triangle, I tried to factor in a little bit in terms production value and whatnot. But ultimately I think your assessment was probably in keeping more or less with IMDb's what everybody else seems to do in terms of its quality. And I was just basing it more on how much I liked it, which was more than the quality of it in itself. And so I gave it an 8.7. I guess this is this is out of 58. And so if I were to look at it in just in terms how it compares to, well-made movie in terms of just the production value and all the acting and stuff, it probably would be like a 7 or 7.1. But when I think of the purpose of a rating, I don't think of it as I want to hear that because I want to know the craftsmanship. I just want I want that rating. It's going to tell me whether or not I'm going to like this movie or not. And so when somebody gives me a rating, I'm thinking, oh, they're just telling me how much they liked it, and then I should rate a film based on how much I liked it. And then that would be helps them or guides them into seeing it or not. So in a way, I think I should have two ratings. One is how good I think the film is and the other is how much I liked it. And that's what I'm doing from now on. You guys can do however you want, I think what you just described, I do a combination of both of those things I take into account. Yeah, like if it were cinematically story acting, you know, on a more technical scale, like analyzing it. How good of a film was this, but also how much I liked it definitely comes into play because you can have a technically, oh, this is a great movie, but it didn't do very much for me then. It's hard not to rate it a little lower or vice versa. Okay, maybe this or this could have gone better. I can knock that down a few points, but it, you know, connected to me and made me feel so much. I'm going to rate that higher because part of storage job is to have an impact. So if it has an impact on me, that's a little that's a better film, you know? So I kind of do a combination. And I think that's probably the wisest course. For simplicity's there's one channel I follow on YouTube where this woman gives something like four different ratings, oh, wow one for scares, one for originality, and two others. I don't know, but yours is probably the approach and what most people would do, I would think. that's part of the whole thing. I went on about TK, being unpredictable in his criticisms. Was the genesis of me coming up with predictions, because I want to predict or try to predict the game of trying to guess what the fuck he's going to say about a movie that we all saw. We also have the exact same movie, but he's going to do something way out there that I never would have anticipated. And I'm comically into this game of trying to guess what that could be, and knowing that I will lose every time. But there's something fun about that, but also in a way that makes him wrong. It makes me make fun of him in a in a good natured ribbing kind of way. So here we are. And this is, this is where it takes Do we want to dive into our predictions at this point, or do you have more to expound upon? Well, I, I should say that I rate based on how I like it. You do. So it's the same thing. Okay. I think yeah. I think that's I don't know, like your experience with the movie says a lot, you know. So I mean, The Muppet Movie is one of my top 20 favorite films of all time, to give you an idea. Okay. It's just a, you know, for for me, when I think of back to the future or Forrest Gump or Fargo or Election, all I'm thinking about is those really, really fun scenes that I can't wait to see again. So that's all that goes into triangle. Just was just shitty movie. I mean, and Oh come on, we got farther than that. you warmed up beyond shitty. Yeah I went, I went I stand behind 4.99 for, for triangle because there was more to it. You know, based on our discussion and stuff, I felt like I could I could see more in it than, than what I saw for the first time. And I actually enjoy. That's one of the things that I enjoy about chatting about movies, is being able to get people's different perspectives and having that augment my own, and that's part of the fun of it. And so I definitely stand by that for triangle. But what what I don't get is like, you know, if you're giving trolls to and and triangle, you know, all of these like eight point whatevers and we are talking about out of ten, it just doesn't give you that much room. Well there is an inherent problem with the rating system in that it's so opinionated, yet we put these precise numbers. It's a this movie was a 10.6, indicating there's some sort of scientific value that we can assign some technical mathematical process to be played. there's a lie in there because you can't really do that because it's different for everyone. If it was that scientific, every single critic who was professional and knew how to criticize films, there was a science there. There would be a uniformity just like any other science. They would all observe the same phenomenon and come up with the same number. But it's not that way at all. scratch my head as to why you think triangles only 4.99, but you scratch your head about me liking it to be an 8.7. It's I see. The thing is, I don't have necessarily a problem with you liking triangle in a vacuum, like, okay, this was a good movie to you. Every person's going to have their own reaction. I just, I just don't understand how you can say that triangle is an 8.7 and Empire is a ten, for example, and have only that that difference because it's true. Everybody has their own scale. But once you get to know a reviewer and know what they like, then the scale becomes meaningful. If they're able to rate it consistently in such a way as to say that, you know, they like this movie that much more than the other movie. So for for me, and I understand like criticism going back decades has always had this problem. And since we were talking about Siskel and Ebert earlier, I know that from watching them back in the in the late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s, and now watching them again on YouTube, they've always had this problem of rating. And that was especially true for them because they had, you know, a black and white binary Thumbs up, thumbs down. That's so yeah. So black and white. Either it's great or it sucks. And in maybe one out of every three episodes of the show, they would have this debate about what exactly are they rating, are they rating for themselves or are they rating for the audience? Are they rating? You know, if the movie is successful at what it's trying to do, and they were not 100% consistent across the board. And so that that laid complications. But when you when we're talking about a ten point rating, there's, you know, the full scale of ten available to us, I would imagine that after some point if as long as the review is being like consistent in how they feel with each movie, then that would give us some helpful information. But if we're if we're if we're giving Triangle and trolls two and eight and Empire 9.8 or 10, what's what's a two. You know, I got what you're saying and there is a logic to that. But I mean every movie is going to be so radically triangle. It's such a different movie from Empire or from shining. They're also unique. It's hard to compare any of those two and give a number based on. I mean, each one is like better at what I mean, each one has different strengths. So again, it goes back to how much did I like it? I kind of have to ignore all these different points of John or whether it be the strong acting or the writing or whatever, and just just how much did I like it? And it does seem like it would be a weird draw to have triangle around this. About the same level as well. Let's just say troll two is about the same level as one of my favorite movies, RoboCop. Or maybe back to the future or something. They're just so radically different. And it's just it's frustrating. There's no answer I can give you that will make sense of it. it makes me wish there was some way to invent a new rating system that would make us all be on the same page, but you're just never going to like that movie as much, because it's not your and everything else we talked about in the review. So I don't know what to tell you. I mean, at the end of the day, the way that Siskel and Ebert, quote unquote, solved the problem is just by talking about the movie and explaining what they liked and what they didn't like, and that was the information that everybody could take from it. Yeah, it's more valuable than the thumbs up. And that's my favorite part of ever watching those shows was their discussion about film. And I really loved that. And that's why I never really minded the sort of binary choice, because at the end of the day, whatever, I heard what they had to say, and that's much more important. Yeah. I came around to, you know, if if I was writing reviews, giving it a rating, but for a while I wouldn't even include a rating because I'm like, everything you need to know about my thoughts and analyzing this movie and what the experience was and whether I would recommend it, read it. It's right here, this I can't the rating is not going to say it better than I'm going to say it right here. But I also get a lot of people just want bottom line, Yeah. how good is it? Should I see this movie or not? But yeah, I kind of again, it's a mixture of technically how good of a story and movie and everything. And then how much should I like it and how much would I recommend it? I kind of view it as a yeah. And I rate very few like full, I guess like full stars because it's to me that's like this movie blew me away and connected to me on this deep level, which a lot of movies are like, very good for me, but not quite that. And right, obviously it's going to it's going to vary. You know, person to person, some people tend to just rate lower, some people. And I totally get that too. Like there's like, I love killer clowns from outer space, but like, I wouldn't quite. I love that movie. Can not love it more. But I'm not calling that a perfect movie, you know, know, so I probably would rate it a little lower. But, you know, there's not really any wrong answer either. There might not be a right answer, but there's not a wrong one. You know, it's whatever what ever much you liked it. How that's your overall analysis of this is how good or not good this movie is to My my dad actually had a pretty tidy rating system of his own that he used. And he would he would give his rating at the at the end of every movie that he took me to see. And it was pretty simple. It was three tiers. If he really liked the movie, he would say that was a good movie. And to my knowledge, I only remember a couple times that he's ever used. I think he's used it more, but I only remember Thelma and Louise and The Commitments. That's musical, kind of, but but the vast, vast majority got his second tier, which was. It's a cute movie. That's all he said. That was his. That was the full rating and review That would be everything from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs to Point Break whether it was Predator or Pinocchio, cute movie that was. And then and then if it was really, it was really a terrible movie. Very rarely he would go to the third tier, which was its kind of boring movie, that was I remember him saying that, yeah, you cannot get cannot get lower than kind of boring. And for that one, I only remember him using it on The Accidental Tourist, which I'm going way back here. This is like Geena Davis. John Hurt from my think 1988 or 89, 90, something like that. And bonfire of the vanities. And God forbid you should go. Yeah, because he rarely used that one. But that was it. That three tiers now, now, recently, I think I heard him say pretty good, which really like that almost like broke me because because I didn't understand. Like, is that, is that replacing cute? Is that now a fourth tier between cute and good? I don't know, but that was that was the way my dad did it and it worked for him for 40 years now. Well, all this makes me rethink how we should go about rating our films. I mean, we're doing the one point or the one through ten, and I've got my numbers predicting what you guys thought of Empire. and, I guess like, five stars is a little more simplistic. What it's like, hated it, didn't like it, or it was pretty flawed. Three would be liked it or really liked it five this was an amazing But then they do half stars too. Yeah. True. Sorry. What'd you they do half stars two like three and a half and so forth. So we're back to ten. Okay, so I've been like. Puzzled by this for a very long time. So this this is like the Netflix. Yeah system where they give you five stars and three stars is liked it. So you're not even halfway through the fucking stars and you're already liking the movie, which to me seems like bullying. Like they're pressuring you to like a movie. And so there's so many movies that I ended up not rating at all that I would have liked to have read because they were they were okay. They were two and a half or whatever. Three is like me to liked it. For me. There's a where no, but that that's that is the rational way to look at three stars. But I'm not going to play Netflix's game. They're going to come in with three stars. As I liked it. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not rating your fucking movies. Netflix. Go. I think they actually changed it. Now did they up, thumbs down. Yeah, I used to actually There was a period where I was very much admiring Netflix because when I saw their ratings, it very much aligned with how I saw that movie. Wow. This is the first time a rating system really works for me. And then they took it all away, and now they just give you a recommendation on you're going to like this 93%. What the fuck does that even mean? And let you do a thumbs up or a thumbs down, I think. And maybe a double thumbs up now is a new one that I really liked. It is what it I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, that's just, you know, three stars is what it It's just, do you like it one, 2 or 3 down, up or double up or all the way up? Yeah, that's the confusing and pointless. no sense. It's just a three point system. It's hard when there's that movie that like, oh, this had really good potential or like this or that about it, but there's like X, Y and Z was super flawed and kind of ruined the movie. You're like, I don't know, I didn't like it or not like it, and let's not even go into YouTube and how they took out the thumbs down button. So all you can do is give it a thumbs up. And that's not even a can give it a thumbs down. They just won't They don't special app installed to to read it. But yeah, so that was quite a rabbit hole and I would probably go on it. Ratings. Let me just start by going on with what I thought you guys thought of Empire. Okay, So for Kelsey, well, you know, this is kind of awkward because she's already told me now about everything. She thought about the film, and now I'm looking at my ratings. Oh, shit. You know, I probably miscalculated a little bit, but I can probably guess, you know, just from what you just Yeah, it's like now I can. I feel like I want to just lie and just change my numbers. But I thought as far as quality of film and bear in mind, this is a film from 1980. It was finished in 1980. It was made in the 70s, so we have to gauge how good it was, technically speaking, in terms of what they could attain before CG and all that. So there were definitely cutting edge back then bleeding edge. for Kelsey, for the quality of the film, like how well it was made, regardless of how much you liked it, I predicted she would give it a 9.3 but how much he liked it. I predicted an 8.2, so not really that into it, but she still admired it and hopefully become a new lifelong fan. But none of that happened. I'm of the school that believes that if you are well into adulthood without really having checked out a certain type of movie or specific movie, there's probably a reason for that, and your instincts are probably going to be good on that. Every once in a while, you get a very pleasant surprise, and you watch a movie that you've been avoiding thinking it's going to be terrible and it's not. It's actually quite good, but by and large that's not the case. So if it was yesterday and I hadn't heard any of your comments, I probably would have said that you would have thought Empire was a solid like five or something like that. And then, you know, listening to your comments today, you know, maybe, maybe a 5.5, 5.7, something like that. I think it's just interesting how I think our ratings are like just so different of like opinions because you said for you eight was that was kind of like, not that great, Right? for me, eight is like, this is a really good movie. right? I think eight would be very good, but not, not, Not like a masterpiece. right? not like trolls. One I really appreciated it. Kind of a rating. first troll. So you're probably closer. I Steve, I would say how much taken into account how much I personally like it taking into everything account how well it was made, what type of movie it is. I'd probably give it about a seven, but if I was judging, just taking kind of my opinion out of it a little bit and more, just like for for the time and the John and everything that it did. Oh, I guess I didn't really get into acting too much, but I did really, really respect the acting in it a lot and thought that everyone really played their roles really well, which added a lot to again, it's partially probably seen it this many years later to and knowing like the icon that these roles and these actors were. But that was definitely like a highlight to. But yeah. So I'd say like overall for me with judging it as a film and my personal opinion, I'd probably say about a seven out of ten if I was just judging it. Like I'm a technical stand of like, how good of a film is this? Technically, I'd probably say eight. Wow. Okay, good, good, good. And for TC, the quality of film I put 8.4 and then for how much he liked it and 8.35, pretty close for a average of 8.3 75I think, unless C3po wants to correct me on that. I want to say like a seven is just what I would guess you would say. So I feel like you're really picking up what I'm putting down. Kelsey, I, I normally would have a critical. As a matter of fact, Empire happens to be one of my top 3035 movies of all time. I'd put it right there at about nine, 9.2, something like that. It's definitely grown on me over the years. I maybe would have had a 6.57 the first time I saw it, but I really come to appreciate it. And like I said, it's it's a top movie for me. Wow. So I undershot you. I actually shot low, assuming you'd be a little bit more critical about it, but you. Well, you actually. Yeah. I can forgive a lot if, if they do, if a movie does certain things really, really well and, and for me like the last third of Empire and, and and I'm going to mention some technical aspects, but I don't mean to separate that out from how I liked it. How I liked it is very much founded upon some technical aspects, especially in the third act, with set design and set decoration and lighting. I mean, the scene where we first see Vader come in into that room, you know, for the and to see, you know, our, our heroes interact with them for the first time is just like amazing on a technical, technical level and story level. So I and the and the fight scene of course, at the end which, which is very different from what I was mentioning earlier, the I'm going to punch you, I'm going to punch you back with nothing ever happening. This time something does happen. So I think for for all those and other reasons, give it very high marks. Great. What did you guys think I rated it as? Oh, gosh. Again, we're at a ten. Do I have to do the thing that you did with the technical and the how you liked it? No. So I'm going to go with a 9.8. I was going to say 9.5. So I said quality of film 9.8. How much I liked it. 9.80 okay. All right. For an average of figured it was going to be pretty close to ten. And I did write that, just so you know. Yeah, yeah. I'm not making that up so You somehow better than me because he knew what I would like and I didn't know quite what he would like. So his analytical. Yeah. You didn't give me enough credit on that one. Although to be honest, I mean, I think both of you have a pretty good sense of where I'm at. I'm very critical of movies and by the way, only more so as time has gone on. I'm rewatching some things now, both movies and TV shows that I used to love as a kid, and in a lot of situations, heartbreakingly so. They just don't hold up for me. All kinds of, you know, even a show like Night Court and guys remember Night Court from the 80s. So it was so you had this thing called the TV, TV. I have so many warm feelings about Night Court now. I've only watched the first couple seasons recently, but they does not hold up. And same thing was true of Mash a few years ago when I started watching that again. One show that bucked the trend was Newhart. I still loved Newhart. Great TV show. If you're looking for a comedy that's sort of light on horror, you might want to try Heart. But I do want to start doing a segment where we review movies in a new unit of time that we saw at least, say, 8 to 10 years ago or earlier, and ask ourselves if, you know, still holds up or if or we can do the opposite, where is it? Is it still crappy or whatever? I think that would be fun to to revisit and see. Anyway. So speaking of segments, Steve and Kelsey try to convince TC to see a horror movie. And here we take one horror movie that I have not seen and have no intention of seeing, your guys job is to try and convince me to see it. I guess under the theory that it's really not as scary as I'm making it out to be, it's not as gory, it's something that I could handle and it's worth my time. So the the rule basically is you can say pretty much anything you want. The only thing you cannot do is say an outright lie about the movie's contents. But other than that, than an outright lie. You can use whatever powers of persuasion you have in order to make me see the light and why I would want to to to to watch a movie. By the way, in future. I think going forward, I think it would be fun if I didn't even know what movie it was. If the two of you brainstormed it out and then just brought it on the day, day, so are we just to assume you haven't seen any horror movies? If we're just going to pick one at random Oh, that's. Yeah. No, it's a good point. Yeah. No, it's a good point. You just give us a list of the horror movies you have seen. Yeah, that's true, a smaller That's true. Well, we actually We almost did a switcheroo. I asked her a couple days ago if there was some other film that might be more of a slam dunk or, you know, maybe there's some other options before we jump into The Shining. But because we already discussed that in our last episode and it's such an iconic father figure type of film, we just stick with that. But we almost pulled the rug out from under you and just gave you something completely different. I also fear that you maybe did a bunch of research and you were going to have this big list of things and we're like, nope. Yeah. No, I do know. So. So the movie is The Shining. I do know, I think a fair amount about it. I know, for example, about 20 years ago, in the early days of the internet, before social media took on a huge role, there was there was an editor who did a parody trailer for The Shining. Yeah. Have you heard of it? I think I've yeah. Like the one that makes it look like like a nice romantic comedy. Yeah, yeah. yeah. They just called it shining the Power of editing. Yeah. So, so, so I'm, I'm pretty familiar, and I have to say, you're definitely going up a very steep hill here. I have my defenses built up over The Shining. But. But over to you guys. What you got? Well, let me just start with a fun fact. a fun fact. The Shining technically has fewer stab wounds than some other features like Spider-Man. And No, actually could be true. The Shining was released in theaters the same week as The Empire Strikes Back in 1980. kidding. Well, look at that. That is something I did not know. It would have been even more poignant if it were Father's Day weekend somehow, but it would only be poignant to us because we're doing a podcast on it. they were released two days apart. Empire. And The Shining. I suppose there's something almost spooky about that, because we. Because we happen to be talking about those two. spooky, then? Yeah. You're already frightened, I can tell, I think. Okay, so I rewatched the film on Saturday, I didn't really come up with any new information or thoughts about it, except that the era in which it was made had a couple of points, which I should bring up. One, the pacing is a lot slower than the ring or something, whatever that would have been made more recently. there's not like a lot of intensity. That's not like a lot thrown at you, a lot of jump scares. It's more atmospheric, it's more just settling in with this family and just watching things deteriorate. I can't say that there's no blood in it. If you've seen the trailer, there's a shot in the film that contains literally more blood than has ever existed in any movie. Right? A river of blood, like the elevator. The elevator. Yes, but it's more like almost artistic and beautiful, says the horror fanatic. But I'll say that that that does not put me off I didn't think it was river of blood. I mean, it could be like. Yeah, it's just like Yeah. Red paint. Yeah, but yeah, you're definitely not a ton of jump scares. I agree there, and there's blood, but mostly you're not. It's not like a lot of attacking or death scenes. You know, it's more just seeing scene of you like almost after the fact of, of the carnage and just haunting history of this place. Well, I think, I adding to that point about the era in which it was made, there is an element which I don't think they ever would have considered while they were making it as a point of interest for me. But if you watch, let's say North by Northwest by Hitchcock, have you seen that film, Cary Grant? Well, seen Vertigo. Okay. Well, even that one works. There was a lot of attention paid to the fashion of the era, and the way people talked at the time was different from now. And I have a fascination with watching older films and seeing the formality of their language and etiquette, addressing people as Mr. Grady or something like that, instead of just Bob like they would now. And so I watch Albert Molina. Go ahead. Spider-Man two dogs. out. So anyway, this aspect of just watching an older film, in this case from 1980. I feel a certain charm or or fascination with watching people interact with each other, which again, nobody while making the film would have considered that, because that's just simply how people behaved at the time. So you might look at that older film and just gain a sense of nostalgia for how people lived and acted back in 1980. This is going to be a point that means nothing to anybody but me, but the bathroom that they are in in the beginning of the film has the exact tiles that my mom's bathroom has today. So I really, whenever watch this film it brings me back to to that era. anyway, so if I'm thinking about stuff like that watching it, then there must not be a lot of other distracting, horrific elements being thrown at me. So it's take your time and more of a psychological deterioration of a man with his family. And I think you're more keen on those than you are with horror film. So for sure. let me give you two questions then. Number one. Scarier or less scary than triangle. It's so different. Yeah. And you're also like you're not really scared by horror films either, right? Not really. You're asking two people who I think creepy is maybe a better word. it's more haunting, like literally and figuratively. I would say about this, it's less God. Is it less violent? Yeah, I mean less. There's less carnage in blood, for sure. I mean, except for the, you know, blood River. But yeah, more it's definitely very atmospheric. It's about kind of building that gripping suspense. Honestly. I think, again, it's a little hard because I've also I think I did rewatch it as well, and I think this was the first time I watched it with a little bit more of a critical eye, because I've read the book and, yeah, I kind of was like, oh, wow, they did simplify. It's like, it's like it's a really good movie, but it's still the tip of the iceberg. So if ultimately you decide you're not up for these visuals, highly recommend the book or audiobook. But I think more than anything, it's it really is a cinematic, just haunting, gripping, fascinating masterpiece. And how it's even just the camera movements and the, you know, Steadicam looming shops and just a lot there's a lot of good imagery and metaphors of, you know, from like, I, I don't think it's any big spoilers here of anything, but, you know, of how far that, like, predatory sort of deterioration happens, even kind of, you know, little, little things pointing to what's, what's I mean, it's not pretty much from the point he gets there pretty early on. He's already kind of losing it. But yeah, it was just a great a lot of great imagery, shots of showing that, you know, kind of looming down that predatory gaze and how, you know, he's his family's going to be prey to to the horrors there. But yeah. And just acting like they really all, all the actors are so spot on for their characters and play so well even it's hard not I know you don't like scary, but it's hard not to not enjoy Jack Nicholson in his just he's just total idyllic man losing his shit and kind of enjoying it, you know? Yeah. He's just like so fantastic in the role. And even Shelley Duvall is really, you know, shows that that timid sort of afraid to speak out against someone she loves, but also total mother bear of, well, you know, face against terror to to protect her child. And so let me pick up on that point. Talk to me about Shelley Duvall in the bathtub or whatever. What's what's happening there? I've heard that that's kind of a creepy scene. that's a difference. And you're thinking of room two, three, seven, right? With the, Yeah. Yeah, that's That's okay. Well, Shelley Devall, but it's an iconic scene from it? Yeah, it's a random it's not really a character that we it's again, mysterious. We don't get what's happening necessarily. But I want to bring up a point. Last episode we talked about how much I dislike screechy women who just scream hysterically when we should ideally have them be more proactive or just given more credit as characters than just being that victim. this film was Shelley Duvall. She's hysterical, like in real life, had something of a mental breakdown I think had to be committed for a while or something afterwards because she was pushed so hard behind the scenes. But she doesn't annoy me at all in this film. I just her her performance is just so believable. I mean, I there are points where I was like, okay, you don't need she's being a little bit too over protective of her son. And I think, okay, I can't relate to that because I'm not a parent and I'm not a mother, but I can still extend an understanding that, okay, I could see how she would actually be that protective and fearful for her son's safety, especially her son's kind of flipping out and so forth. So I'm actually okay with the performance. I admired a great deal. And for her to get to that place of just hysteria even before I knew what pressures she was under behind the scenes, I think she just did such an amazing job. So I just wanted to say that she doesn't annoy me in this film at all. I like her despite her doing everything that I said that I hate. Yeah, it's very real and even a little heartbreaking at times, but yeah, yeah, great performances and normally I, I pretty much want to say I hate all children, but that's perhaps more broad than is true. normally like little boys usually kind of gross me out. Like for some reason I don't like if I, if I had to play catch with them or something, then I feel like, okay, we can play catch. And I sort of warm up to them and I can break down that wall and just relate. But I'm not really a kid person. this kid, as much as, you know, he's got snot and spit and everything coming out of his face in some scenes and he's not even really I don't think he's done any acting before or since then. He's just that one time thing. He doesn't bother me. I feel for the kid, so that must mean it was written well. Or maybe I just watched enough times to where I can I don't know, go along with it. But it is a Stanley Kubrick film. Don't you like 2001? Isn't that one of your films? Yeah. In fact, Stanley Kubrick is one of my favorite directors, not just 2001, which for sure is one of my top 1520 films of all time. But also Barry Lyndon and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest. That's, Was that Kubrick? Oh. I'm sorry. Clockwork orange. okay, there you go. That sort dialog that 2001 has, they're all sitting around talking coffee on the moon or something. And it's all very formal and classy. That's the kind of talk that they do in The Shining when they're doing an interview for the job. And that's what I was talking about. It's like that's really engaging somehow. part of it's also like there's this 1920s sort of throwback to it to as well. the hotel was built in 1907 or something like that. And they keep flashing back to characters from the Roaring 20s and 30s, I suppose. for me, there's always been something creepy but cool about seeing vintage photographs like sepia toned or just black and white pictures of people that, you know, like, these people are all dead now, and there's pictures on the walls of the hotel and stories described from the manager and so forth that stir my imagination. I find it fascinating to think about, like normally ghosts are from like Victorian era there that cliche sort of. But these are slightly more modern, I suppose. And I just like the feel of all of that era the whole contrast of them being party animals, basically from the 20s and hearing some of the music that was played in the ballroom, and you see them all interacting as sort of figments of the past or whatnot, and contrasting that liveliness and formality with the fact that they're they're dead. They're talking about dead people and death itself. It I like that juxtaposition. So it's more of an artful perception that I have of it that comes across in a way that transcends just being. Scary in you're being attacked sort of way. It's wow, there's there's an esthetic to this, and I you'll respond to that more closely as a, as a horror theme than ax murderers. So speaking of ax murders, where does that ax end up? That would be spoiler territory. Do we want to. you want to know the ending? Is that what you're saying? like, does it wind up in somebody's eyeball? No. Okay, good. Well, as long honestly, like, it's aside from. Yeah, that blood river and then kind of seeing you, you probably seen the Grady twins. That's a pretty iconic shot. There's really not. That's what's on your shirt. Yes it is. Yeah. There's not really a ton of, like, there is an attack scene. There's that chase, that cat and mouse sort of suspense. But yeah, it's more, it's more the atmosphere of and kind of overall spirit of this place kind of slowly infecting this mind. And some of it is, I think, taps into, you know, the real world pressures that he had before he got there. Like, you know, he's trying to make it as a writer. And if, oh, if I just had the peace and quiet and he's, you know, quickly starts to snap at people and, you know, the pressures of fatherhood and, you know, of this family, man life and of course, things. It's not gone into a great detail in the movie, but there is no comments of alcoholism and whether there might have been some, you know, I don't want to say quite rage issues, but there's there's things that are outlined about him that, you know, he might have already had his demons. And then it's like, then he gets into this place that represents demons, ready to pray and bring out the worst in a person. And just it's not even really a slowly degradation. It's pretty quickly. And then, yeah, just kind of kind of losing it and, and going over the edge and then from the family, and how graphic, how graphic are we on the demons and all this kind of stuff. Oh, it's all just more spooky than jumping at you. There's nothing like somebody said falls off or something like that, but an aspect you might be able to relate to with Jack Nicholson. He's a writer and you're a writer, and so you might share some common ground there and what he's going through and trying to get his novel written, or come up with ideas and people interrupting him and shit like that. and grabbing an ax. there are a lot parallels, even with Empire Strikes Back in that she had not seen the film, but she knew certain elements of it because it's just bled into the culture so much. I think when you see The Shining, you go, oh, that's why The Simpsons spoofed this scene there's a lot of cultural references will make sense if you saw the film, But I think because it's a Kubrick. I don't know if it's Kubrick or Kubrick, but you're an admirer of his. We have top tier actors in it, and it's a classic film that it's like me, I feel. like I'm less of a man because I never saw The Godfather. It feels like one of those where you just have to see it just for the sake of being a credible film lover whether you like it or not. All right. Well, I have to say very close call. You guys did a great job. I was totally prepared to say no on this one, but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm going to give it a shot. I'm probably going to hands you the Blu ray. Hands me the Blu ray with fucking Jack Nicholson. You know, looking like he's about to eat someone. So I immediately regret my decision. But I'll probably watch it during the day outside. And. But take a take a flier on it. Why not? It's a it's a classic, as you said. And I'm sure you didn't fail to mention any of the creepy, gory, scary shit in there and we'll give it a shot. So good job. So that's a that's a yes. You guys get a yes on that one. The inaugural horror movie Steven Kelsey tried to convince TC to see a horror movie, The Shining score one for Steven Kelsey. Good job. And with that, on behalf of Stephen Aguilera and Kelsey Zukowski, I want to thank all of you for checking out the Nothing to See or Hear podcast. If you like what you didn't see or hear, please take time out of your day doing our job by promoting the podcast to your friends, family, colleagues, classmates and neighbors. Even though in most circumstances that would be extremely awkward. Till next time friends. This is n't so. Signing off. if you would like to join our Society of Grotesquerie and Loathing, subscribe now and give this podcast a like and be sure to comment your wretched thoughts below. Keep our podcast suffering on by finding it in your cold, black, withered hearts to support us on Patreon. A link to our PayPal's also below for one time donations of any amount. It was nice knowing you.