Teaching Middle School ELA
Welcome to the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast, where we are dedicated to helping English Language Arts teachers create dynamic and engaging lessons for their students, while also managing the day-to-day responsibilities that come with being a Middle School ELA teacher.
As educators ourselves, we understand the challenges of finding a work-life balance that allows us to pursue our passion for teaching while also enjoying our personal lives. That's why each Tuesday, hosts Caitlin Mitchell and Jessica Cannata share practical and innovative solutions for managing your workload and staying inspired in your teaching practice.
Whether you are looking for fresh ideas to inspire your students, strategies for improving your writing instruction, or tips for managing your time more effectively, this podcast is designed to provide you with the tools you need to thrive as a Middle School ELA teacher.
Join us each week for curriculum and lesson ideas, classroom stories, and interviews with fellow educators who are experts in the field. We believe that with the right support and resources, you can create a classroom environment that encourages students to become strong and passionate learners.
If you teach reading and writing to middle schoolers and want to stay up-to-date with the latest trends and best practices in ELA education, then this is the podcast for you! Tune in every week and let us help you make a difference in the lives of your students and in your own teaching career.
Teaching Middle School ELA
Episode 314:Interview with Deonna Smith: culturally relevant learning environments
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Join host Megan in this insightful episode as she welcomes back Dr. Deonna Smith, an inspiring advocate for educational equity. With experience as both a teacher and an administrator, Dr. Smith now collaborates with educators and school leaders to build vibrant, inclusive learning environments that support students from all backgrounds, especially those who are often marginalized. In today’s conversation, she shares practical tips on bringing culturally responsive teaching into your classroom and teaching in ways that are joyful, inclusive, and impactful. Don’t miss this chance to learn how to elevate your teaching and student engagement!
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Well, hello teachers and welcome back to another episode. In this special episode, your host Megan interviews a returning podcast guest, dr Deanna Smith, a passionate advocate for educational justice, a teacher and administrator herself, dr Smith now works with educators and school leaders to create school communities that joyfully and effectively serve students of all backgrounds, including those that are traditionally marginalized. Today, dr Deanna Smith will be filling you in on how you can implement culturally responsive teaching strategies and bring more joy to your classroom and lessons. We hope you love today's podcast episode. Hi there, ela teachers. Caitlin here.
Speaker 1:Ceo and co-founder of EB Academics, I'm so excited you're choosing to tune into the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast. Our mission here is simple to help middle school ELA teachers take back their time outside of the classroom by providing them with engaging lessons planning frameworks and genuine support so that they can become the best version of themselves both inside and outside of the classroom, and we do this every single day inside the EB Teachers ELA portal. This is a special place we've developed uniquely for ELA teachers to access every single piece of our engaging, fun and rigorous curriculum, so that they have everything they need to batch plan their lessons using our EB Teacher Digital Planner that's built right into the app. Over the years, we've watched as thousands of teachers from around the world have found success in and out of the classroom after using EB Academics programs, and we're determined to help thousands more. If you're interested in learning more, simply click the link in the podcast description and in the meantime, we look forward to serving you right here on the podcast every single week.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast. It's Megan here with you today and I'm super stoked to be back with one of our very favorite guests, dr Deanna Smith. Welcome back to the podcast, deanna.
Speaker 3:Hello, thanks so much for having me back. So excited to be here, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2:If you don't know, deanna was actually originally with us on episode 277, which was such a great episode, and I can just talk to Deanna all day so we had to have her back. But for those who maybe haven't listened to that episode and are already familiar with you, could you just give us a little bit of background on you and the work that you do?
Speaker 3:Yes, so hello everyone. My name is Dr Deanna Smith and I work with teachers and schools to create joyful and inclusive learning environments. I started off as a fifth grade teacher and then I transitioned to middle school and then I did some instructional coaching, I was a school leader, all the things and then I wrote a book all about this work, called Rooted in Joy, that I'm really excited about. That is a toolkit for teachers and leaders just to really lean into creating these joyful, inclusive and equitable spaces so that their students can thrive and so that they can thrive as well.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. So I have the book and I've read the book. I don't have it by me, but it's so good.
Speaker 2:So highly recommend. It's so, so good. Yeah, you're just. You're an expert and a gem of a person. We just love having you. So today we are going to be focusing on creating engagement in the classroom and, kind of more specifically, I think, how culturally responsive teaching paired with joy can really help teachers escalate engagement in their classroom. And so I think, to start, I would love to just like talk a little bit about engagement, because I know you and I both know it's a struggle for a lot of people. We've both been there, and so I wonder what you kind of believe are the biggest challenges educators face today when it comes to engaging students in the classroom, and do you feel like those challenges are heightened when you have classrooms that have, like, more diverse students?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, such a great question to kick us off. I would say first, I started teaching before the pandemic, so I'm going to talk about the good old days, if you're listening. I mean, we had challenges then, but they definitely seem a lot smaller in comparison now. So I think one of the things that is the biggest challenge is just shifting from how things have changed since the pandemic. When I really think about what it looked like to have an engaging classroom, to create a engaging lesson plan, it was just very different. And so I think, with the combination of the prolonged exposure to online learning, with the oversaturation of computer time and the inundation of screen time that our students are getting, that is one thing that is a serious challenge to engagement, because it's just more difficult to get our students actually hooked into our lessons.
Speaker 3:The latest research is telling us that we went from having about a minute per year of age for your attention span to about 30 seconds, so at the time, yeah, so I just was reading about this and they're thinking that the attention span is about cut in half for this current crop of students.
Speaker 3:So I think that is a piece of it, and I think the second piece of it as well is. You know, we had a huge flurry of action around like learning loss and getting our kids back on track after the pandemic, and some of that has resulted in an over reliance on standardized testing and just all of these kind of from the top down strategies that teachers are supposed to be implementing that I don't think particularly are well suited to engagement. And then, too, I think a lot of our teachers are leaving their teacher credentialing programs without the skills that they really need to lead a dynamic and engaging classroom. Our teacher credential programs are doing everything they can, but too many teachers don't really have that toolkit and that bandwidth to create an engaging environment. So I think it's a combination of a lot of factors, but those would be three that I would identify just right off the bat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such an interesting point you bring up about kind of teachers not being prepared, because I think we could have said that you know for many years in education. And to your point of how rapidly things have changed since the pandemic, they're really unprepared at this point, so it's just like an even bigger issue.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, and I you know I work with a lot of teachers and before so before the pandemic, I was in school leadership. So when we came back to the pandemic I was a vice principal. But this last year, after working with so many teachers actually said you know what I'm going to go sub.
Speaker 3:So I can get more experience so that I can truly feel what it is like to teach, because I came back after the pandemic and I wasn't teaching, so I was giving advice but I felt like, okay, I really want to feel what it's like and I realized like, wow, there's a lot that I need to relearn post-pandemic teaching and just kind of like staying current. So that's a huge thing that I recommend now. But a lot of our teacher credentialing programs have people that did not teach after the pandemic or have not taught these students that are so, so. So the social media, tablet generation, I mean kids have been having technology, but this is a total different ballgame really. So no fault to those folks, but we have a lot of leaders and folks that are leading the way in best practices that don't have that on the ground experience. So it's not necessarily connecting with our teachers who are living it day to day.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely, Absolutely. So I'm kind of wondering, too, how you feel like in like, different populations of you know education. If there are more diverse schools that have you know more diverse students in the desks, Like, are their engagement being affected more? Is it different? I'd love to hear your kind of thoughts on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And so I think that you know, culturally responsive teaching and I say this all the time is just good teaching, and I think that we have to recognize so many of our students are carrying a lot more cognitively than maybe we were carrying at that age, especially so we're in middle school, right, we've got our middle school, high school, if you're listening, probably. So you're already navigating all of the things, all of the hormones, all the stuff that's hard about being a 13 to, you know, 16 year old. But you have to remember these kids also witnessed firsthand a much overdue reckoning on race. They're witnessing some of the impacts and the consequences of us ignoring what's going on with our climate. They're witnessing all of these changes when it comes to identity. So, on top of negotiating and navigating what it just means to be a teenager, what it means to be a learner, they have all of this additional stuff on top.
Speaker 3:And so sometimes, when I work with teachers that are like, oh, my kids are just so disengaged, they don't care. I'm like they're thinking about all of the things. They're thinking about the presidential election. They're thinking about if you know if marriage equality is going to get repealed. They're thinking about like a hurricane. You know that there's just so many things going on in their brains and so I think culturally responsive teaching really tells us that we have to understand and work with, not against, the diverse brains of our learners, and that's why it's just good teaching and that's why we really need to embrace that if we want to see the engagement.
Speaker 3:Because it is different. This generation is different and it is different when you have kids coming from a variety of different contexts and navigating experiences that you know. Even even if I share and identify with my kids I've never been 13 in 2024. Right, right, it's just all of the things that we really have to kind of recognize and and address first, as opposed to you know just engagement tips and tricks. Just you know doing a kahoot every day, which is fun, but like that's not. You know that's not exactly. You know what we, what that's not going to cure what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:And that's you kind of answered it, but that was going to be my question like around, how do we even define culturally responsive teaching? What does it actually look like in the classroom? And I agree it's good teaching, but I'd love to just hear kind of you tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I love this stuff. Teaching really comes out of asset pedagogies, which is just a shift in thinking. Instead of thinking about, like, whatever your students are bringing to the classroom as a barrier, think of it as an asset. So if your kids are neuro spicy, you're not overcoming their ADHD, you're working with it. If your kids come from you know a different racial background, they're not overcoming the fact that they're, you know, an English language learner or a black student. You know, we're working with that, we're celebrating that and seeing it as an asset.
Speaker 3:So culturally responsive teaching specifically engages this idea of just activating the brain and using neuroscience to understand that really culture and our backgrounds are the software of our brain. So Zaretta Hammond has this fabulous quote that is a culture is the software to the brain's hardware and so some of people. I would like to clarify this because I know we've got a lot of like Gen Z teachers who have never used like a computer tower. But if you're an old OG like me, you buy the computer, right, and then you buy the software used to come on a CD. I'm aging myself here. But basically, like you think about you know the hardware is your phone and then the software is iOS, whatever 27, whatever iOS. I'm not sure what we're on.
Speaker 3:Yeah wherever we are. So the brain, you know, is working, and then we understand culture as how the brain works and all of these things firing together. So when you do culturally responsive teaching, you're seeing that culture as an asset and you're working with it to liberate the student's potential and really help them thrive academically and socially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure just making it more relevant to them so they can start making connections and activating all of you know those buzzwords higher knowledge, knowledge, all, all the all the buzzwords, yes, but you have to get to them first to get you know, make the connection. Absolutely. I love that. So what role do you feel like then? Kind of student identity and we've talked about this and cultural background, kind of play in their level specifically of engagement in the classroom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, especially when you get into, like older kids in middle school, that is their frame of reference.
Speaker 3:That is what they're drawing from, that their culture is their first language, their baseline programming, right. So for a lot of students that are getting older, they're feeling like they have to exchange one for the other. They have to almost learn this new language of how to be at school and learn all these different things and it adds another kind of layer and another barrier, as opposed to letting kids bring their full selves and their identity and their backgrounds to the classroom and really working within that and just recognizing that you know, so many things are cultural and relative. A perfect example is that I always say when I do this training is you know if I tell you that the party starts at five o'clock, what time are you showing up? Some of you listening are like oh five, that's me.
Speaker 3:Right Me. Anybody come like, do not come to my house at five o'clock, if I tell you five, you, if you come at five, honey, you are helping set up, like you know, which I'm happy to do right right, I, you know, but I've got one eyebrow like my hair isn't done, like you know.
Speaker 3:So it's also relative. So things like timeliness are relative, things like noise level or relative things like conversation style or relative. All of that is culture and so that's how it shows up in a million little ways in the classroom. You know you're talkative students. Some cultures value communication over others and that's just how kind of it is as a baseline and I see a lot of teachers that kind of you know struggle with things like disrespect or disengagement. But it has more to do with a misalignment of cultural understanding. The teacher is using their frame of reference for what they think it should look like and the student is using their frame of reference for what?
Speaker 3:it looks like to them. And when you have those two things clash, you know you can have some disengaged students and some really reluctant learners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's great. I think it gives that's a way of reframing it, right. So, like you know, you have moments and I'm I was telling Deanna I'm teaching music part time and so I actually have little kids. So I taught middle school, of course, and now I'm like working with kindergartners and it's a totally different thing. And so being able to reframe it from like what I consider to be respect versus what this five-year-old, who has totally different background from me, considers to be respect, is we just have we get to think about it differently, right, right, beautiful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I really love to encourage people to not think about it as right or wrong. It's just different. Another example that I always use that I get teachers all the time really frustrated with kids talking over each other or just being very animated. And I explain. You know, in my culture it's called a conglomerative conversational culture, which means we interrupt each other.
Speaker 1:It's not rude.
Speaker 3:Like talking over each other is like adding fuel to the fire, you know, building off each other. We don't really take turns in conversation, and so that's why my report card always said you know, like overly socialized Right right, right.
Speaker 3:I was like I was totally that student. So and I and I like to tell people you know it's not necessarily wrong. I know and I know our dominant culture says you wait, you raise your hand. You know it's not necessarily wrong. I know and I know our dominant culture says you wait, you raise your hand, you take turns, but that is not necessarily the frame of reference that all of your students are actually bringing to the table. So absolutely. In a myriad of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. I love it. So let's kind of get into some nitty gritty examples here. So how might educators, for example, begin to just integrate students' cultures and backgrounds into their teaching Right?
Speaker 3:I would say the first thing to think about is, you got to remember, when you're thinking about culturally responsive teaching, there's kind of two prongs to think about, right, you're thinking about the materials and you're thinking about the way that you're actually engaging the brain. So culturally responsive teaching has an arm that really talks about neuroscience, about activating schema, about putting the cognitive load on students. Sometimes people don't realize that's a part of cultural responsive teaching, right? Making sure that students are carrying the cognitive load in the lesson, making sure that your classroom discussions are truly discussions and not just you going back and forth with one student, right? So that's kind of the engaging the brain side. And I have an acronym that talks about this, called READ, and it stands for Relevant, engaging, accessible and Driven by Inquiry. And so the brain side is that accessible and driven by inquiry part. Then the other piece is the relevant materials. So that's the relevant and engaging piece and the relevant materials.
Speaker 3:Sometimes people really struggle with this because they say, well, deanna, I have to use this, or this is what's in my standards, and I know that y'all are huge on this too, about customization and making things your own, and so this is something that I'm really passionate about and I think you can do this in a culturally responsive way.
Speaker 3:And so if you have to read something that's in the canon, you know that's not the most culturally responsive. Put it in conversation with another text that is not in the canon, but it's super culturally responsive If you're, you know, if you have to do Shakespeare, you know maybe they're talking about music and like hip hop and Shakespeare, there's so many different ways to put things in conversation with each other. So I don't like people to feel like they have to be limited by you know their standards, because I know the standards can feel a little constraining. So it's really just about bringing in those relevant texts and thinking outside of the box. And then the engaging piece is really letting students dig in and lead the work and and having multiple means of engaging. You know, for us it might've been, when we think about our experience in middle school ELA. Maybe it was as simple as you know you popcorn read and then you go to your small group and then you answer the questions.
Speaker 3:That that's one way to do it, but that doesn't have to be the only way that you do it right. So I think there are plenty of ways for you to start thinking about how can I make this more engaging, how can I make this more inquiry led. And also, when you're looking at your, you know you're looking at your scope and sequence. Don't get overwhelmed, feeling like every single lesson has to be like your gold star national board certified teacher lesson, right? Just, I like to start with one day, or maybe start with one unit and say like, okay, this one unit that I'm doing is going to be I'm going to knock it out the park, I'm going to make it really engaging and fun, and then you can kind of start to build from there. Or you can start with one day. Then the kids will start to realize, oh, thursday is the day where you know we're doing a jigsaw, we're doing a dramatic reenactment, we're watching a video. Like you know, we're bringing in a different text.
Speaker 3:I like to tell my ELA teachers everything is a text. A meme is a text. What is a meme, if not an analogy? So I mean these kids should be amazing at analogies, because they're always, you know, doing TikTok videos that are analogies of the same situation and memes, right? So if you're engaging different you know videos, whatever that looks like start small and then start to build it, but it can. You will truly realize like it feels good for you too, because I think sometimes folks look at it and they're like, oh my gosh, gianna, okay, I have to make it relevant, engaging, accessible and driven by inquiry. Those are so many things. But what you'll find is that when the kids are engaged, when you're putting the cognitive load on the students and when they're actually, like, invested in their learning, it is a lot less work for you Because, I'm willing to admit, most of you are running the entire show.
Speaker 3:Most of you are probably doing all of the work in the classroom. I mean you're delivering thespian level performance. I know y'all are working hard, so the more that you get the students to do the work it's actually easier for you. It might be more on the prep side, but you're in the long run for sure.
Speaker 2:That's so true and I was going to kind of reiterate what you were saying there Because it long run for sure. That's so true and I was. I was going to kind of reiterate what you were saying there because it's like and especially with our materials at EB, cause we do really strive for the engagement piece. So this is such a good conversation. But you know, I would just notice with my eighth graders when I taught eighth grade, like the less I was up at the front chatting at them, the more they were doing and the more I didn't have to handle behavior problems or redirect them. It's like when I gave them the chance to collaborate on something, they just did it because they wanted to do it. You know what I mean and so, yeah, your point is perfect because it does take a lot of that off of us.
Speaker 3:And the best classroom management is an engaging lesson. That is the classroom management strategy that you have, because if they're doing something, they're not doing all the other things Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I love what you said about kind of starting small. And maybe you start with one unit and take this one unit that you've taught for 10 years and just take chunks and pieces of it and make it more culturally responsive, make it more relevant to the kids, you know, and it doesn't have to be an everyday thing. Maybe you do popcorn read one day and then the next day you're doing something that's a little more relevant, you know, yes, yes, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, I love that. What advice would you kind of give and you know we kind of just touched on this, but what advice would you give teachers who feel overwhelmed by the idea of starting to kind of implement culturally responsive teaching, these kind of engaging strategies, or finding ways even to bring more joy into their lessons?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say the. You know, the first thing to do is sometimes it's helpful to stop and slow down and think about what you're already doing, because you're probably already doing something you know that's working really well or that's going really great or really engaging. So, in the same way that I have an asset based mindset about students, I have the same mindset about teachers. I'm sure you're doing something that's already working and so sometimes it helps to start there, like reflect at the end of your Friday, you know, before you put everything away and take your tote bag full of things to grade that you might not actually grade We've all been there, right. Just stop and think like, okay, what really went well this week?
Speaker 3:Like, where did I really see my students come alive in an assignment this week? Where did I? Where do I think my students really saw themselves? Like, where did something really feel good and relevant? Where did I create opportunity for the curriculum to not just be a window into another experience but mirror my students' experience back to them? And so stop and think about what you're already doing and if you aren't coming up with things, think about what somebody down the hall is doing your co-teacher right and start there and then kind of start to build in. Okay, where can I do more of that?
Speaker 3:And that might feel better than feeling like you have to do a whole different other additional thing, but just building on the momentum that you already have, even if you have like, even if it's only one class. You know, sometimes they get multiple or single subject teachers that are like third period, I got it. Like every other period, it's a hot mess. But then I'll start to like strategize, like okay, so what is going on in third period? How could we pull out some of that Like what is working there? How can we pull that out and apply it to a different class? So I would say, start, you know, start with what you're already doing. I know you're already doing some, even if you're, if you're listening to this podcast, if you're invested in these materials. I know you care about it, so I'm sure you've done something. So just start with that and then move forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Okay, I hope this doesn't put you on the spot, but I'm like a question just came to my head. I wonder if you have like an example and it could be like an example from your classroom, or like I know you work with teachers kind of currently and do PD and stuff. Do you have an example of like a teacher who is really struggling with engagement, struggling with like making things relevant for her kids and something that he or she did that we were just like that's it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I'm usually like, especially for my teachers, cause right now I have a lot of first year teachers, so I have a lot of like straight out of you know, um, the program teachers, um, and I love, and I love working with first year teachers because I really I wanted to make this a good year, because I know for a lot of people that like that's the make or break, the tipping point. Yeah, if it goes poorly, I know, and like we already have a teacher sorted, so I'm trying to correct that shortage. So I have, you know, a teacher who and she's eighth grade, ela and like a bunch of other subjects too, because the school is understaffed, you know how it is Sure. So, and you know, I obviously we have the acronym, which is READ, relevant, engaging, accessible, driven by Inquiry, and I, you know, kind of we started off with trying to like how can we bring in this material, bring in that?
Speaker 3:But honestly, her management was not where it needed to be, that it was really like we would bring in a TikTok and that would just totally derail the entire class. Because we're on it, because now we're having a whole conversation, right, right, yeah, right. So she had a lot of management issues. So I was like, ok, what can we do? Because you're already a first year teacher, that's not going to overwhelm you and that's not going to totally like send the management crazy crazy. We just focus on the first 10 minutes, and this is something that I do a lot with my coaches. I just want to focus on the first 10 minutes of class and how we can set ourselves up for success in that first 10 minutes and how we can make sure that within that first 10 minutes, students like are activated and engaged and they understand, like, okay, we're here, we're ready to work and we're ready to lock in, but they're actually thinking and not not completing, not waiting, not lollygagging, but actually thinking.
Speaker 3:How can we get like an inquiry or really interesting question to get their brains going, to get them thinking within that first 10 minutes? And they're thinking and they're sharing within that first 10 minutes. So they're not just coming in and listening to you for 10 minutes and they're thinking and they're sharing within that first 10 minutes. So they're not just coming in and listening to you for 10 minutes, they're thinking and then they have an opportunity to talk right in those first 10 minutes and use that to kind of build momentum and set us up, and you would be surprised how much that totally changed the dynamic, because before they were coming in, she's getting attendance. It's a hot mess. We're here. We're there, coming up to the desk asking her to go to the bathroom. She's taking cell phones. It's chaos, right, yeah. And then she's trying to settle them in to a 20 minute direct instruction Right, they're not trying to do that? No, no.
Speaker 3:So, we're like okay, first 10 minutes. How can we get an opportunity for thinking, get an opportunity for thinking and how can we get an opportunity for discussion? Because these kids love to talk. They've got a lot to say. Sometimes they're not saying anything, they're just talking and that's fine, like I get it, you know yeah, right, everybody, I'm the same way, you know.
Speaker 3:So, um, you know. So we really focus on that first 10 minutes and it really set the tone. She found that when she put that time aside and and let it go hurt, she was able to get through the direction instruction quicker, cause I think that's something that we always struggle with. We're like, oh, but I have to get through it. And it's like, babes, you're getting through it, but nobody's listening to you.
Speaker 3:Like but it's pointless, we are not with you. So I said let's take 10 minutes away, let's have a thinking task, let's have a discussion, so they're actually interested in it and they have to like kind of get it going and then we will go into the direct instruction, like it's to your point, like it's about management, but what?
Speaker 2:you did was. You took that 10 minutes and now the whole class is set up for what could really be super engaging for them, because they weren't able to necessarily do the things she wanted to be engaging because she hadn't set the tone right. And that's so great, so great.
Speaker 3:Right. And a big thing is because I know there's probably someone listening that's thinking like, oh, I have such a talkative class, that is an asset. We have to really repackage how we think about our high energy so-called talkative classes, because when you get that going in the right direction, you can have some very lively, very engaged students. I actually take that over the you know dead in the eye stare. I mean, it's definitely energy, but you know, when you have that talk at a class like that could be an asset.
Speaker 2:So about reframing that yeah, and I think that's great because there probably are some teachers that are listening, that are thinking like they're intimidated by something like bringing in a TikTok because of you know what could happen. But it's like if you take that moment to take your chatty class, give them a question, because they do. You know kids at that age especially like, especially if it's like a really controversial question, they want to chat that out.
Speaker 3:Oh my God. Yes, they want to debate you. Yes.
Speaker 2:So bad yeah, and if you're kind of playing devil's advocate a little bit, they love it even more. So what a cool way to kind of set the tone and just like prep them and also build relationships with them at that same moment. Absolutely, yeah, very cool, very cool. So I'm curious, kind of looking into the future as, like more of this becomes we hope becomes more popular, more common in classrooms, how do you kind of see culturally responsive teaching, engagement, this idea of joy, how do you see this all evolving in the next few years in education?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think one thing that what I hope will happen is two key indicators. I hope to see less chronic absenteeism.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:This is a challenge that a lot of schools that I'm working with, at least in my area. It's huge in California and it's a lot post-pandemic. I think that's part of it because people just were like we're home, we go stay at home?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:So there's some of that. Yeah, I think that what we're not asking the right question when it comes to chronic absenteeism, because we're all motivated on like come to school, come to school, but it's like, why would you want to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's nothing going on, we're sitting in desks. It's more fun to be on my couch.
Speaker 3:You know exactly, they are not thriving. So I would love to see chronic. I think when we build more culturally responsive and joyful practices and we see chronic absenteeism go down, I think we see teacher burnout decrease dramatically because we're going to bring a lot of the fun back into teaching. I think a lot of teachers before the pandemic just had a love of the we call it love of the game. They just had like a passion for instruction, like that light bulb moment, like getting your students there. I think we've lost a little bit of that just because we experienced so much collective trauma as a profession, and so I think we'll see a lot less teacher burnout.
Speaker 3:And then my kind of unpopular one this is like a little bit of my controversial opinion is, I see, I know, and I apologize if it upsets anybody, but I think we need less technology use and love really, because this is something that like I'm really working and really pushing on, because and I'm kind of like you know, I'm sure anybody who works in the district is like rolling their eye at me right now because the computer is like the solution apparently to like differentiation and I just don't think that it works. I'm going to be honest with you. I've worked in ed tech. I've tried all of the things. I mean I taught in the Bay area, where we are like the ground zero for all the technology.
Speaker 3:If you, if there is a program, I've tried it, I promise you. But nothing will differentiate in the same way as a human being yeah, I hope. When we get engaged in more culture, responsive teaching and more joy, teachers realize like, oh, this is, I don't have to set you on this program and push you away. I can engage with you and really help you learn. And I think we'll see more of that and I think that'll also get kids more engaged, because I I think that the you know as much as they think like, Ooh, can I have Chromebook time?
Speaker 3:They're tired of it, they're on it all the time. Yes, their entire life is Chromebook time. They put on that Chromebook. It's not exciting anymore. They have a nicer iPhone than you at home.
Speaker 1:Yes, correct.
Speaker 3:This is not exciting, so I think we'll see a little bit of a change in that, hopefully.
Speaker 2:Well, I agree with you and to your point, like they are literally on it all the time and so it's like, if you can get kids, kids doing some kind of activity like an escape room, like that's novel, that's something different. The TikTok, you know that they're on all day long. Maybe isn't the program, that's like giving them all these new questions, maybe isn't, but there are other ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that human connection piece, I think, is what so many of us are missing and it's what the pandemic changed and probably is one of those factors. That's right, you need to go back to a little bit.
Speaker 3:And and I think you know we, whether or not it's right or fair it is also encapsulated in our responsibility to teach them those social skills and I'm sure y'all know that our babies are lacking social skills and so having them you know. So sometimes, you know when I, a lot of times, when I talk about culturally responsive teaching, a lot of it is putting the cognitive load back on students more groups, more discussions, more you know, and and sometimes teachers are like, oh, it takes up time. You know there's all these kinds of resistance to it, or they don't have the social skills. Exactly that's what we have to put them in these classes. Yeah, they have to practice. So I think that you know that is another huge win that you will see is your classroom not only will be more engaged, culturally responsive, and you'll hopefully start to see some of those gaps close, but you'll be churning out, you know, better humans, because you'll have some experience connecting with each other.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Another little fun bonus. I think, yeah for sure, and think too, what I keep hearing you say is like we don't need to do this perfectly the first time, like it's going to take practice, it's going to take reps, and you just kind of have to get your feet wet and start putting your toes in there. You know, trying different things.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, and I and I think you know we, we want some. A lot of teachers are perfectionists or really have this vision of your classroom. Realistically, if you have 30, 14 year olds in a room, you need to let go of the idea of some sort of quiet library. That's not, you know, and I also don't think that the quiet classroom is always a learning classroom.
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't think so either, you know, so, I think, let you know, let your vision of what your ideal classroom change, and it will probably include ups and downs. It'll probably include chaos, it'll probably include interruption, it'll probably include bottle flipping every once in a while, you know it'll probably somebody you know shouting and throwing trash and saying Kobe, like that will be there and that's okay. It's okay for those things to be present.
Speaker 3:So you're also middle schoolers, so at the end of the day, you know you gotta give yourself some grace for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I love it so much. Is there any other last thoughts you'd love to just share with, with our teachers listening today, on kind of this topic or any other? Anything else you'd like to say?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, I would say you know two things a classroom is only as joyful and culturally responsive as the leader leading it, and so think about this for you personally as well.
Speaker 3:Like we had again, we had a lot of awareness and reflection in 2020, with people really diving in to like understanding their own frame of reference, their own identity, and I think some of that is tapered down and so, if I'm using terms that you're not familiar with or you haven't brushed up on your culture, responsive teaching in a while, still do that, still still, you know, give, give yourself the benefit of you know, reflection and know that you are valuable enough to invest in yourself and your own identity, work, and that will help you as you're leading this work. Because I could get, I could write a lesson plan for you right now, and it won't be necessarily culturally responsive unless you are doing the your own work along with it. And that's the same thing for joy, you know, I think it looks, it can feel really forced when you're like, okay, now we're going to do this fun activity, but like you're hating it, it's going to do this fun activity.
Speaker 1:But like you're hating it, it's going to be fun.
Speaker 3:I know like you better have fun and then you know, and then you're like taking you know, you're like writing people's name on the wall because they're not having fun. Don't, don't turn it into another compliance thing you know like that.
Speaker 3:So you really need to tap in with yourself and make sure you're pouring into yourself and doing your own. You know your research and your learning. We are lifelong learners and I think, if you're listening to this podcast, you believe that as well. So that's great. So just continue to invest in yourself and a lot of that will start to pour out and come through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such great advice. Well, before you go, tell us again the name of your book, because that is a great resource for teachers looking to do some of this work. I think yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. It's called Rooted in Joy. It's available at Barnes, noble, amazon, target and, if you'd like to support a Black business, it's Mahogany Books and they ship nationwide. And it's, yeah, rooted in Joy creating a classroom culture of equity, community and care. And it is really just I like to say it's a love letter to teachers and students just about pouring more joy and equity into this work and it's meant to really kind of be your field guide, your companion, and so I hope that you'll take an opportunity to take a peek through it. And then I'd also love to connect with you all on social media, because I do. I give out tips all the time. I have a newsletter and maybe we can put that in the show notes Okay, perfect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you can. You can connect with me there. I send out tips every Monday and then on social media, it's just my name, deanna Smith, and I share tips as well on there and I share a lot more. If you're, if you're interested in hearing about, you know, other teachers across the country. I share a lot of my journey with my teachers that I'm doing instructional coaching with this year and so, yeah, I'm really excited about collaborating and learning more from folks, because I think that's the other challenge with teaching. We're in our silos, we're kind of in our own schools, but there are people that are dealing with the same things that you're dealing with, that have fun and exciting solutions, and so the more we can kind of connect and really find joy in that community, the better it'll be.
Speaker 2:Agreed, 100% agreed. Yes, everything you do is so wonderful, so we're just thrilled to have you and we'll share all of your things because you're doing such good, important work.
Speaker 3:And I do have a little freebie for as well, so I'll make sure that that goes in the show notes, but, yes, a joy freebie that I created for you all so you'll be able to download that. And now I'll bring a little link because I love, I think, people when they say you know, I want more joy. I'm giving you more tangible tips because I know someone's like, yes, writing it down, be joyful.
Speaker 3:I'm going to break it down and give you some concrete steps and things that you can do in that freebie as well. So that'll be there to check that out. And I also, you know, do instructional coaching and do professional developments across the country. So you can find out more at DeannaSmithConsultingcom.
Speaker 2:Fabulous, all things, fabulous, excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time, deanna. This is just going to be so valuable for our teachers and we just love and appreciate you.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you so much for being here. Love chatting with this community so.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks everybody for joining us and we will see you all next week on another episode of the Teaching Middle School ELA podcast.
Speaker 3:Bye, everybody Bye.