Nature as Teacher - Embracing Nature Pedagogy with Ros Molyneux (Ep 2)

Nature as Teacher - Embracing Nature Pedagogy with Ros Molyneux (Ep 2)

Kriegler Education is delighted to unveil our latest episode, "Nature as Teacher—Embracing Nature Pedagogy," featuring the remarkable Ros Molyneux. This episode, hosted by Lili-Ann Kriegler, explores Ros's extensive expertise in early childhood education and her passion for nature-based learning.

Ros Molyneux, an experienced Early Childhood Teacher, Consultant, and Coach, has dedicated over 30 years to the field. With a Bachelor of Education, Master of Education Studies, and a Diploma in Children’s Yoga teaching, Ros currently works with Gowrie Victoria as a Consultant, guiding teachers in early childhood programs. She is also the Director of Hearth Nature Play, a wild bush venue near Ballarat, where she fosters children’s connection with nature through Nature Playgroups and Bush Kinder.

In this enlightening conversation, Ros shares her journey from traditional classrooms to establishing Hearth Nature, where she integrates First Nations cultures and environmental stewardship into her teaching. Discover how outdoor play can profoundly benefit young children and learn about Ros's inspiring approach to education.

Recommended Reading List:

Last Child in The Woods (2005) by Richard Louv

Balanced and Barefoot (2016) by Angela Hanscom

Beyond the Gate (2023), edited by Claire Warden and Doug Fargher

Early Years Learning in Australian Natural Environments (2022), edited by Fran Huges, Sue Elliott, Karen Anderson, and Barbara Chancellor

Young Children and the Environment (3rd Edition, 2024) by Julie Davis and Sue Elliott

Inspirational Quotes:

John Muir: “Of all the paths in life you take, make sure a few of them are dirt.”

Edwin Land (quoted by Michael Bungay Stanier in How to Begin): “Don’t undertake a project unless it is manifestly important and nearly impossible.”

🌟 Listen, learn, and let nature guide your educational journey.

#EarlyYears #NaturePedagogy #OutdoorLearning #ForYourEarsFromTheEarlyYears #Education #PodcastRelease #RosMolyneux #HearthNature

Transcript

Ros Molyneux with no music.mp3

00:00:00

00:41:58

Nature as Teacher – Embracing Outdoor Education

00:00:00Speaker 1

You are turned into for your ears from the early years. You'll go to the podcast for all things early childhood education. Join me, Lili-Ann Kriegler, each week as I interview the trailblazers and thought leaders making a difference powered by griddle.

Kriegler Education this is your source for insight, inspiration and innovation.

00:00:28Speaker 1

Welcome to this podcast, ‘For Your Ears from the Early Years’. My guest today is Ross Molyneux. Ross has an extensive career and deep knowledge of how children learn best, which has led to the creation of a unique outdoor learning site.

00:00:50Speaker 1

Welcome, Ross. We're delighted to have you on the podcast, and I know that our listeners will love hearing what you have to say.

00:00:59Speaker 2

Thank you, Lili-Ann. Thank you very much for having me.

00:01:04Speaker 1

I think what you're doing now is so important. Our paths have crossed over the years, many times while you are still in traditional educational settings and we'll get back to that. But to begin with, can you tell us about yourself and your career in early childhood education?

00:01:25Speaker 2

Yes, love too. So I've actually been in the early childhood field for over 30 years, which is always surprising when you say that cause it goes so quickly. I've predominantly worked as an early childhood teacher most of the time, but I've also worked as a preschool field officer, a coach and currently a consultant. I'm a consultant with Gowrie Victoria at the moment, which involves going out and working with services to increase teachers' efficacy and looking at improving practice, which I find really interesting.

Prior to that, I was director of early learning at Geelong College, an Independent School in Victoria, for 21 years, so quite a long stint but a fabulous place to work. I guess this is where I really started to explore my interest in nature pedagogy, amongst many other things.

00:02:18Speaker 1

Yes. Now, it's great that you are mentoring teachers and educators and sharing the wisdom that you've gained over your career. I think that's just a marvellous thing. So I'm so happy that you're a coach, and I know you as an exceptional educator, you know, in traditional settings, and we've met through Geelong College, several times we've done a project together, but what prompted you to leave the traditional classroom setting and start this? I love the name of your adventure, Hearth Nature.

And to do that on your farm.

00:03:02Speaker 2

Well, it wasn't an easy decision because as I said, I actually really loved my previous position. So yeah, it's not easy to leave, but I guess growing up on the farm, my childhood was pretty much constantly outdoors, and I have probably, in more recent years, been going back to the farm a lot more for various reasons. I think that country has been calling me back, I feel a real connection, and I particularly have been going back in this period of transition where my parents have been moving off the farm, so I've been spending a lot of time.

They're actually downsizing the farm. So I guess, yeah, in recent years, I've spent a lot more time there. Growing up on the farm, we were outside, outside completely all the time. And I think about my childhood—it was completely outdoors. And that's had a major impact on me in my adult life as well as in my teaching.

I think it's interesting when you grow up in nature and meet other people who have also grown up in rural areas or on farms; we have this immediate affinity. I am, yes, I'm always a country person at heart.

00:04:10Speaker 1

I think it's true that in our childhood, we had more access to the outdoors, and it's very, very timely that you have this interest and to try and introduce some of our modern educators, families and children to these very , very special relationships, which I'm sure you're going to unfold for us as we continue chatting. So you said it was a bit difficult to initiate it. I mean, obviously, early childhood is very regulated, as we know, and you know for good reasons. But what was the planning process? What are the some of the steps you had to go through to gain your approval for half nature play and and were there challenges and what did you do to overcome them?

00:05:02Speaker 2

Absolutely. So, I guess initially, yes, that was one of the fears of leaving the teaching profession, I guess because I was leaving a very regulated environment, and you know how things work. In the latter part of my teaching career, I was doing a lot of administration and a lot of compliance.

So whilst you said, as you said, those things are really important, it was really becoming a large part of my role. And I think this is really not where my passion is. This is not what I'm really I wanted to do. I wanted to be with children and

give back to the to the next generation of educators. So I did, yes. I started looking for opportunities outside the regulated system while investigating what I could potentially do with this little Bush block that was on my parents.

I could see the potential, but I also, having organised lots of excursions in my teaching role, knew the restrictions on people getting out of the four walls of the classroom and getting children into nature. So, whilst in my teaching job, I did quite a lot of that. We had a really good outdoor learning programme. We would go to Bush Kinder.

We would have an on-country programme, and I promoted a lot of outdoor learning within the school. It's still very different doing that as an excursion than having children actually on site in nature.

I had to investigate whether I could do it to start with, so that was an interesting process. So, meeting with the Council was the first thing, and the farm is zoned as rural. Of course, there are certain things you can do on rural land as opposed to farming. Beg your pardon, it's actually zoned farming, farming, and rural with the two categories, so I learned a lot about zoning and what people can do in these different zones.

So initially they told me that it wasn't prohibited, so I took that as a win because initially I thought, oh, they're probably going to say no, you can't do this. You can't operate an education setting on a farm. So I was really excited when I got past that first very small milestone. I thought they hadn't said no, so I could pursue it a little bit further. So onwards I went, and they didn't really know where to fit me, and I thought, well, this is a really good opportunity also to be an advocate for other people who might like to do this.

I was talking with planning officers at the Council, people who weren't in the education field and had no idea what I was talking about, so I thought, OK, well, I just need to keep getting this message out there. It just led me down a rabbit hole through lots of consultants, as anyone who's worked with getting a planning permit knows

and would understand. They just send you down this pathway where you have to consult with all sorts of people so.

It wasn't that I was not developing anything; I wanted to keep the block as natural as possible. There were a couple of things that I had to do, like a gravel car park and a toilet block, so it did become a planning development proposal. I just had to fit in with those requirements, and that sent me down the path of meeting with people.

Ecologists, Bush fire consultants, the water Catchment authority building, surveyors—all these types of people I've never dealt with before in my life. This is not my usual place. I've always worked in education. I've never been a property developer or started my own business before. So it was pretty scary.

And I thought along the way I thought, well, come fairly far in now. Should I keep going? Am I actually going to get there? Because every time I got through one consult and then they said, and now you need to give us this and now.

You need to give us this and that and there were little steps forward and lots of steps back. So yes, but then I thought, look what we're asking children to do in their learning. We're asking them to be brave, take risks in their learning, learn from mistakes. And I thought, well, if I'm asking children of that, I really need to, to model that myself. So I thought, I'm going to keep going. So that's the sort of the process that I had to go through.

I guess along the way, I had to acquire some business knowledge. I had the pedagogical knowledge, but I didn't really know about running a business, so that was another thing I had to upskill on.

00:09:13Speaker 1

That's a remarkable journey. I know that at Geelong College, there was also a lot of knowledge about the Reggio Amelia philosophy. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking that they never saw educators in one particular mould. So through this environmental sustainability journey, your relationships with nature, you're offering this space to children. These other people bring exceptional skills, don't they? And so by working with them, you gain new insights and perspectives. That is what education is about. But I love how you stop to think that if you're expecting children to be brave, you, as an educator, need to be brave. And that's an incredible message to pass on to others, because that very first question seems to be almost a threshold moment and things become not only possible but become probable along the way. So I love that story and I it's just so incredible that you had this wide variety of people to jump through the hoops. And plus you've made yourself into an entrepreneur along the way. That's remarkable.

So you have this farm it's in Glenville. Buninyong. Is it near Geelong?

00:10:41Speaker 2

It's closer to Ballarat, actually. Yes, it's alongside of Ballarat. So yes, I go between Ballarat and Geelong in my everyday work.

00:10:43Speaker 1

Ah, perfect. Yeah. And so we're in country Victoria. Yes. And I'm going to ask you to describe some of the activities and the experiences that the children receive when they go to this amazing bushland place that you've created. So while you're talking about

what a typical play-based nature play session looks like. Can you describe, because

not everybody knows what the Australian country bushland looks like, talk a little bit about what they do and what is some of the the vegetation, what is the environment, what does it look like? Because I'm sure people would love to close their eyes and be with you and these children in this unique space you've created.

00:11:36Speaker 2

Absolutely yes. It's a very special place to me. I think as I said, you know, growing up there I have a connection to this, this land. So it's you do have to go down a gravel road for a number of kilometres before you reach it. So I when I'm giving my directions to parents and to groups to come and visit me, I say just keep going.

Just measure the kilometres and you will get there because you feel like you might not be going to get there. You go through farming lands and open grazing land with a sheep and then you come upon this beautiful natural forest which is mainly gums and this gravel road that leads you into this what is a small part of the farm that used to be owned by my family and they, just a bit of context, sold the larger part of the farm and this was across the road, a smaller farm which we decided to keep as a bit of a downsizing farming experience for my parents. But this block has always had my eye on the road and bedise the road and it has quite a lot of old trees there quite a lot of sticks on the ground. Lots and lots of interesting fallen sticks. Fallen leaves, beautiful ground cover. That is pretty much Bracken. And then open space. So you walk in and in amongst the trees, there's these natural clearings. There's a little bit of grass, but there are actually places where wildflowers and mushrooms grow.

There is grass. It's fairly, well… have had sheep on this property, so there's not really long grass in there. So whilst there's a bit of grass, which is I think is really interesting for play, it's quite easy to see and to supervise and there's got what I call these rooms, these nature rooms that are naturally formed by the trees and with a little bit I had to do a little bit of clearing up. There were a couple of fallen logs and things that were sort of in the way. But we've done very little actual change to the space and any sticks and logs and things that we've had to move, we've kept in the area obviously because they're probably habitats for creatures and for insects.

It was very interesting for children to explore that, of course, a large tree did fall over, and my father kindly got the tractor out and just dragged it into a position where I thought this would be perfect for children to clamber on. So there are large trees that you can clamber on.

Not so much tree climbing. They're not really ideal clean climbing trees, but I'm more looking at what children can do on them.

00:14:02Speaker 2

There are lots of logs around, and there's an area with a whole lot of small logs with bracken growing through them, and I sort of call that my small world play forest. So it's a place where children can go and really use their imagination, have imaginary games, etcetera. There are loose parts areas. So I have introduced a few non-natural items.

We have this lovely place where children can build cubbies. I've provided whatever logs and sticks we've gathered there, but I have also put a few other wooden materials there, such as pallets, which will help them with their building things.

I have set myself a challenge that anything that I introduce there needs to be recycled or repurposed. So, in terms of thinking sustainably, I've got a little cooking area where children can do pretend cooking. So I've used all elements from the op shop, just old saucepans, etcetera, and things that when we closed down my grandmother's farm and her country garden. I just gathered things like her pots and pans and things that were still there, which I wanted to keep anyway, and I thought they've got really beautiful play value. So I have some old items like that I’ve included

We have an amazing stick collection. I keep adding to it because, if you're a young child in nature, you can never have too many sticks.

We've got a beautiful, main area up the top of the hill where we play with these nature rooms that I was describing, but we also go on a Bush Walk each day. So the group we've only been operating this term, and the group that I've already got has been very keen to Bush Walk. So we do a bushwalk, which they call an adventure, each session, and we head off, and we're creating a bit of a pass through the forest and what they've really enjoyed and that is collecting bones. 

There are a few old bones there because it has been a sheep farm, so of course that creates wonderful interest and wonderful discussions amongst the children about what these bones could be and lots of possibilities there and they actually seem to really enjoy the terrain. It's not flat, it's flat up the top where they're, but play children don't get this experience, I find, every day now, where they can be on uneven terrain. So they run down a hill, climb back up a hill, and clamber over logs, falling in and out of sort of holes and things that all those things that are so important that we know for children learning their gross motor skills, they're getting a chance to do this. And stamina.  On the way back from our bushwalk, you know, we have a we've discovered a resting log halfway back up, which is just a lovely log in the middle of nowhere. And I can tell them we're nearly back to the resting log. Let's rest there, and then we'll make it back up to nature play. So, that gives you, I suppose, a bit of an overview, although I probably should say too, we're having a campfire up the top two. That's been another experience that's been very, very appreciated in the Ballarat weather. Victorian people will know Ballarat is quite a cold place. So fires in winter will be a really lovely thing to do.

00:17:07Speaker 1

That is a wonderful description. I feel as though I've really been there, and I can feel how the children need to adapt their balance and gear themselves up to initiate the kind of movement that they need to elevate themselves to ascend an area. I can feel them touching the different textures of the different plants and trees. It's a wonderful description, and the campfire, you know, it's so rare for children to have that opportunity to sit around, open fire, especially in the safe environment that you're you're creating now.

You've mentioned, and I love this quote of yours, that ‘Children can't bounce off the walls if you take away the walls’, and so your description of the rooms that are circled by trees just—I don't know—it's fabulous. Now, how does it happen? You mentioned some of it, but what are the key ways that children benefit from being in that environment versus being within the wall of the traditional environment?

00:18:24Speaker 2

I think, well, we all know, as teachers, that children learn through firsthand experience and through using their senses. So, for me, the outdoors is the natural place for this to occur. And when we think about it, you know, pre-colonisation in this country, children have been learning outdoors for thousands of years.

Obviously we're building on that and I think the research actually shows that when children learn outdoors, they are involved in more deeper learning. Their concentration is better, and they're generally more motivated because it's child-led and interesting and exciting. They want to do it. They do quite a lot of problem-solving. So I think what people sometimes look at and say is, oh, it's just free play.

Of course, this can happen in kindergarten, both indoors and outdoors. As early childhood educators, we're always advocating to the wider community about the learning that goes on in play, but I think this particularly applies to outdoor play. When you look at the different types of play, sometimes it's easier as a teacher to justify what we do indoors, because it looks a bit more like traditional learning. So I've always been a big advocate for getting children outside and for explaining what the learning is that's going on out there.

Yeah. Interestingly, in my role as a consultant, one of the most common things I get asked by educators is guidance on guiding children's behaviour. And I think, and this isn't a real issue, it's certainly things like children's self-regulation, you know, something a lot of educators are challenged by. I just think sometimes we're perhaps approaching it from the wrong way, and we're asking children to behave and learn in an environment that's really not natural to them.

So, although the indoor environment is something that we've created, perhaps it's not always fit for purpose for young children, even though educators do an amazing job creating these wonderful, rich learning environments. I actually think if you take children outside, they're going to have experiences that are more developmentally appropriate. We're not expecting them to sit and listen as much as we would indoors.

And perhaps not to do some of those fine motor tasks that they're just not ready for. They'll still do those fine motor activities outside, but they'll do them with sticks. They'll pick up a stick and draw in the Earth, or they will use their gross motor skills to clamber on to logs. I think it's as an educator. We need to perhaps reframe that a little bit.

And so getting back to behaviour. If you take children outdoors, whether in a centre or in nature, you'll immediately notice the change in their behaviour when they go from indoors to outdoors, and I think it's about getting that different sensory experience input. They have the freedom to move their bodies as they should. As we know, young children really should and they also have that choice of where to play, so they will follow their interests and their learning will come from that.

00:21:21Speaker 1

There's a high level of trust in what you describe there, and I mean trust comes from people who you know are going to behave in the way that you have, in a sense, agreed to. Is there are there some protocols or some, I hesitate to use the word rules, but rules about how they go, where they go, etcetera. So you know those are the guidelines that the educators are asking you about. So, how do you put those in place?

00:22:02Speaker 2

That's a great question. It is certainly different out in nature. And I think if you're taking your own kindergarten group, for example, out to Bush, Kinder, they're a group of children that you know. And I think your educators know them really well, and they will know which children they need to spend a bit more time with, etcetera. Perhaps in my context here, it's a little bit different.

I'm getting new families and may get groups of children coming in with their educators. So yes, I do have a time at the start of the session where we will sit down and talk about the expectations and the guidelines. I call them guidelines to keep safe. 

Basically, the group that came last week, started around the fire. It was the first week we'd had a fire lit, so obviously we were going to have a discussion about that and as much for the parents as for the children setting those safety expectations. But yes, we do definitely. And I think it's really important for everybody to feel confident, particularly in nature.

Not all parents and carers are confident in nature too, so I think they need to know that, yes, I have considered all of that. Whilst I'm not operating a regulated surface, I have all the same policies you would if you were operating a regulated service. So I need to know that I am running a safe program, but that will have a certain amount of acceptable risk for children. Risk is a really interesting word, Lili-Ann, because when I was working through the Council to get permission, basically all the consultants said do not use the word risk because when you're in a planning environment, it's got the completely different meaning, it's something that you have to absolutely remove. It's a hazard. Whereas educators, we know that hazards and risks are actually different. As it is, you know, the hazard is the thing that could happen, the risk is the likelihood of it actually happening. So I have to change my teacher language. When I was writing those policies and working with the Council. But essentially, we do want children to be taking some risk, but it's very much managed risk.

I really believe in children's potential to manage their own risk. It doesn't mean you're supervising them any less closely, of course. I'm always nearby, but I do trust that children know how they feel in their own bodies. It's about standing back, being very aware of what they're doing, and then asking questions at the right time. Do they need a little bit of support? Would you like a hand with this? How do you feel in your own body? So really. Yeah. Getting children to assess their own risk, I think, is a really important skill that that we can promote when they're outdoors.

00:24:32Speaker 1

You've introduced the idea of parents being along. So yeah, I know that a lot of parents are less likely to allow their children to embark on this risky thing. I mean, I ran a child group of seven children many, many years ago. And when a mum arrived, the child was in the garden up on a climbing frame.  She nearly literally had a heart attack and said he couldn't do that. I said, well, he's been doing that all morning, so stand back and have a look and genuinely observe what he's doing to keep himself safe and how he's manoeuvring himself on this piece of equipment.  I was not a tree-like, you know, like yours would be, but they're very wary of it. But your parents are also participating and involved in what you're doing? So just, just explain a little bit the rationale around that.

00:25:28Speaker 2

I guess going outside the regulated system was something that I had to do, and I also wanted it to be done that way. I wanted it to be a family, a place for family and community, and I wanted to develop a community. I guess if parents are making the effort to come or a little bit out of town, it is a bit of an effort to get there. They're generally committed to their child having this experience. So I have met some really beautiful families in our first term and they are generally very supportive of what I'm doing, but I think they have been really appreciative that I am a teacher and that I do know what I'm doing and I think it's that like we always do, you know, in early childhood as teachers, because we work so closely with parents, we're always modelling that the way we can talk to children, the way we can show them that we're supervising, but allowing enough risk. So I think it's very much a partnership.

Also, I'm very respectful of my parents’ expectations and understandings, and I think that's why it's lovely when they come for a whole term because you actually get to know them, and the children get to know the space. Week by week, it's been so lovely seeing them get a little bit more comfortable with the space, a little bit braver with the different experiences, and so on. And the parents have been fantastic so far. So yeah.

It's been really lovely.

00:26:41Speaker 1

Oh, and then everyone's learning about your amazing biodiversity there. 

So, there is a growing body of evidence. This hasn't come out of nowhere.

Which sort of? Were they international or national programs to give you some direction in what you've achieved?

00:27:06Speaker 2

Yes, definitely, yes. I've always read quite a lot about nature play and was very interested in it in my teaching. So I guess initially, I was reading international research from people like Richard Louv, who wrote The Last Child in the Wood. 

He talked about nature deficit disorder, which, for those who don't know his work, is about children's decline in connecting with the outdoors over one or two generations. 

Angela Hanscombe is also a US author. She's set up Timber Nook, and she's a paediatric OT. I found her work fascinating because she talks about the use of baby devices and children becoming containerised, a phrase that I wasn't familiar with before. But just really, when you think about it, young children now have so many devices; they spend a lot of time in other cars.

Prams, baby walkers, bouncers, high chairs. They could go from one to another all day and spend no time actually on the ground or moving their bodies as they actually need to develop the skills that we know children need to develop. So I found her very interesting. 

And as far as the outdoor programs go, of course. Claire Warden is in Scotland, and she's come to Australia a number of times have been fortunate to attend some sessions with her. But what I think is really exciting now is there's lots of Australian research and lots of Australian programs, so I guess that's where I've been reading more recently, particularly in Victoria; there's the Kids in Nature network, and they do a state of Nature Play survey which has done every few years, I think there's a one coming out shortly, but what they do is work out how many children are accessing nature, what programs are available around the state, what are the barriers to children accessing programmes. So they're really collecting some excellent data locally.

And finally, I should also mention Sue Elliott, of course, who many people in our field will know, who's just an academic who's written extensively on sustainability and nature play in Australia. So there's lots of great, great work out there. And in Victoria, we've got people like Doug Fargher and Karen Anderson from their Eco Learning network.

They've pretty much started Beach, Kinder, and Bush kinder in Victoria. So they've developed some great models for early childhood services to follow, and they're extremely generous in sharing their knowledge, too. So there are some wonderful things happening in Australia.

00:29:40Speaker 1

That is incredible. Would you please list those references and send them to me? I'll add them when we describe this podcast so that our listeners can find out, read up, and gain knowledge.

00:29:45Speaker 2

Yes, yes.

00:29:59Speaker 1

What these incredible researchers have put in place, it'll be fantastic for them.

00:30:05Speaker 1

Now, in our sector, we have also become very conscious and aware of inclusion and of learning from diverse cultures, in addition to environmental sustainability. I heard you talk earlier about, you know, pre-colonisation. How do you integrate the learning about the First Nations cultures and environmental stewardship in your program?

And why is that important for young children?

00:30:37Speaker 2

Well, I think this is something that's very much encouraged in Australian programmes when we're talking about overseas research and Australian research. I think perhaps it sets our programs aside as something a little bit different. So when children are outdoors, they really do develop a sense of place, and this will naturally connect them to the country that they're playing on.

So I think our role as educators there is to foster their awareness of this, and that means for us to be culturally responsive and to have this, you know, to educate ourselves so that we can answer their questions honestly. So, in my particular case, I'm in Wadawurrung country, and I've been really fortunate in my teaching role to have had mentoring from Wadawurrung traditional owners; so what we do in our program is we acknowledge the country, we use the Wadawurrung names for the birds and animals that live on the site. And I respectfully include stories and songs that have been shared by the the Wadawurrung people with us to use.

So I just think that's something probably in the last 10 years, early childhood services in Victoria have become much more aware of this, and there's a lot of support out there for services to gain this knowledge. And I probably I'm very fortunate too because my husband is a Gunditjmara traditional owner. So his country is in South Western of Victoria which is down near Portland, so I'm particularly grateful for the sort of cultural experiences that we have in our extended family and that's really helped me to understand First Nations perspectives and probably also really made me realise the importance of passing this on to this next generation.

I think those influences in my teaching are embedded in pretty much everything that I do. That will lead on to your question about environmental stewardship. I think the children come to love the country, and then they will care deeply about preserving it.

So we might talk to children about how Aboriginal people have looked after the land sustainably for thousands of years, and there are some beautiful picture books to support us in that learning. Things like cultural burning, those types of things. There are really accessible children's books that we can use. And I really like the definition of sustainability and the updated definition in the learning framework because it talks about environmental sustainability, which is often what we think about first. But it's also talks about social sustainability and economic sustainability, which are really big ideas, but I think they're things that we can definitely introduce to children and to model these. So I've been thinking a bit about modelling those values to children, things like not taking from the land, acting sustainably by reusing and recycling any of the non-natural items that we're using for loose parts. I've been thinking a lot about reducing waste.

And then moving on to things like modelling, living peacefully in local communities, talking to the children about the community that we're creating, the people coming out to play with them, and also thinking about the equal needs of the animals and plants as well as the humans that live on this land. So I think the best way that you can model that and teach that to children is to be on the country with them.

00:34:03Speaker 1

Fantastic. Now, you also often quote David Attenborough. I don't know if you've got the quote available. I have it here. I will read it because I've got it.  He says, If children don't grow up knowing about nature, they won't understand it; and if they don't understand it, they won't protect it.

00:34:27Speaker 1

That is a quote from him. You have to be invested in something and know it really to protect it, so asking children to be sustainable. And I love how you've broadened that because, yeah, human capital and the economy grow when people understand one another and when they are educated. So you've taken us on a long journey. Well, I just love it. So we, you know, I love the process you went through to get where you are. You seem to have taken us through these stepping stones.

Your awareness of and our current awareness of biodiversity is great. I love how you spoke about the mushrooms on your farm, and you know there'd be bugs and birds. And then integrating the language of, you know, the Children's home language plus the First Nations’ language, and there is a real cross-cultivation of the pedagogy. So the loose parts are very, very well-known, and I love how you brought complimentary materials into your nature space but very thoughtfully. It hasn't happened randomly, and you know, going into the op shops and getting the old things, that's one thing. But using your grandmothers, old crockery and pots and pans.

That intergenerational awareness is fantastic. It's so lovely. It brings history and culture together.

Taking children on adventures and, you know, allowing them their imagination to go wild as they do that you're creating provocation sometimes, you know purposely, sometimes by mistake when they pick up a jawbone or something. And while they're doing that, they are developing their proprioception of where they are in their environment to integrate all their senses.

So, you know, I think that what you're doing, besides creating a sense of is a play you understand that there's a genuine pedagogy behind it.  A lot of the time, people think that when there's a child-centred pedagogy, the educator steps back; in fact, they are many ways an educator needs to step forward because you have to really think about what is in that space, and you've just done that so incredibly well.

Now, I'm sure that, listening to us, many people would be very interested in enrolling their children or schools would like to bring groups. So how do they contact you, and how might they secure a place in the upcoming terms to share this experience you've created?

00:37:23Speaker 2

Well, I have a website, so that's the best place for them to get the information, hearthnatureplay.com.au, and I'm on Instagram. So again, this is a new skill I've had to learn. I'm not really a marketing person, but yes, I can learn that skill as well. So I do post, and it's a pleasure to share. It's not hard to share images of the things I'm trying to create there, so Hearth Nature Play is my handle on Instagram. Families definitely need to jump on, have a look, and choose a day. We only operate on the middle days of the week because I do have all my other other commitments as well.

So, all the information is there school groups? Definitely. I make time for them to come out. And so the best thing is for them to speak to me individually and work out what their needs are. We have room for buses, which was a whole other story in itself. When we built this gravel car park, we just thought we loved this natural mossy area inside the gate. We thought that'd be fine  for the car park, but no. The Council had a few more restrictions.So we had plenty of room for buses and cars to turn around and that, but it's all done very nicely in in the trees and you wouldn't really see it unless you were looking for it,

?

00:38:35Speaker 1

Fantastic.

Now, do you have a favourite quote? I love to ask my interviewees if they have a favourite quote they'd like to share with their listeners.

00:38:46Speaker 2

Gosh, it's hard to pin them down. Lili-Ann, you did use one of my favourite ones. We were in the chat, which was about children not jumping off the walls.

But, I have. Can I give you 2? 

Sure. 

I've got a nature one that is very, very simple. It's, ‘Of all the paths you take in life; make sure a few of them are dirt.’ This is so simple but beautiful and grounding. And then another one. Because I've been thinking and reading, this is from Michael Bongo Stadium. I should let you know where I've got this from.

This was a book that got me started. He's written a little book, which I can share with you, too. It's about ‘How to Begin’. When I was really deciding whether to take this journey, there's a lovely quote in there. That said, ‘Don't undertake a project unless it is manifestly important; and nearly impossible’.

00:39:40Speaker 1

So. It’s a lot.  That's a big ask. Sounds like you took it on!

00:39:46Speaker 2

It's a bit like you know do you really want to do it or not?

So yes, I'll leave you to choose which quote you prefer best.

00:39:54Speaker 1

Ohh no, I think. I think that that'll stay. That'll all stay in.

Now.

What? What message or sort of summation would you like to leave with our listeners today, Ros?

00:40:10Speaker 2

Look, I just want to give a big shout out to the early childhood educators in our sector. I think it is such an important space to be in, whether they're working in traditional services or outdoor learning. I think we know now that the research into the first five years is compelling.

It's great to see governments around the world actually investing in that now. It's a pretty exciting time to be in early childhood because the research is being recorded.

Most are invested in it, but it's also a very challenging time for staffing in so many industries and professions and other real challenges.

So, it's, but it's still an amazing space to be in, and I just love to see, particularly in Victoria, the growth in Bush, Kinder and nature play programs.

I think it's a really exciting place to be at the moment.

00:41:03Speaker 1

Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you, Ros. I think I agree with you. It's the hard times, but it's also the times of opportunity, and there's so much in the. We talk about going back into nature, but it's also about embracing the future and some of the technology, as you must share these ideas.

It's been a wonderful experience interviewing you. Thank you so much for giving us your time today.

00:41:30Speaker 2

Thank you, Lili-Ann. That was a pleasure.

00:41:32Speaker 1

Thank you so much for listening, everyone. Next week, we are having ‘Pioneering Education’. Claire Bartlett will discuss the Woodline Primary School's unique well-being approach to working with young children.

Do what you do best to bring your unique spirit to early education. See you next week.