Episode 03: Acts 19:1-7

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
How do you deal with not knowing something about God?

Additional texts:
Genesis 1:1-5
Psalm 29
Mark 1:4-11

Transcript

00:02.60
nathanpile
Hello and welcome back to tend a bible podcast. Ah this week we're going to be looking at acts the Nineteenth chapter verses 1 through 7 the translation we're going to read is the common english bible.

00:19.10
nathanpile
And that's what Kevin and I will be reading from again. You can find that on bible gateway or just pull your favorite version off the shelf and follow along in the book of acts are 3 questions this week what word phrase or image strikes you in this text. Toward what is god calling you in this text and the third ever-changing ever evolving question. How do you deal with not knowing something about god.

00:51.57
Kevin Shock
Um, we are Nathan and Kevin and we have a disclaimer about who we are. We are men married married to women in financially stable households white in our late forty s. College and seminaryed we work in the lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania all this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and one another so we want to know what you hear and what you think from your life experience as you interact with scripture. And again we are reading from acts the nineteenth chapter today verses 1 through 7 while Apollos was in corinth Paul took a route through the interior and came to ephesus where he found some disciples. He asked them did you receive the holy spirit when you came to believe. They replied. We've not even heard that there is a holy spirit then he said what baptism did you receive then they answered John's baptism Paul explained John Baptized with a baptism by which people showed they were changing their hearts and lives.

02:11.40
Kevin Shock
It was a baptism that told people about the one who was coming after him. This is the one in whom they were to believe this one is Jesus after they listened to paul they were baptized in the name of the lord Jesus when Paul placed his hands on them. The holy spirit came on them. And they began speaking in other languages and prophesying altogether there were about 12 people if you are gathering together with a group. We invite you to pause the podcast and engage the 3 questions on your own. Ah and. If you are on your own or in a really not talkative group. Ah you can listen to what Nathan has to say about some of these questions and I'll joining one is appropriate Nathan what word phrase or image strike you in this text.

03:06.40
nathanpile
Well, we all know that I like to talk. So if you've listened to the podcast before um I'm a talker. So um I'll be honest as you read it my mind went to Corinth Ephesus

03:22.55
nathanpile
And John's baptism and the thing that struck me in this is how much these people get around like these these things are not close places to each other corinth is in Greece Ephesus is in turkey.

03:36.54
Kevin Shock
He.

03:42.45
nathanpile
Asia minor John's baptism happened down in Israel like these are not close entities to 1 another? Um, so like.

03:46.29
Kevin Shock
E.

03:57.26
nathanpile
So that's I'll be ah, that's where my mind went the the word or phrases were were the cities and the places and it doesn't name where John's baptism happens but we know John's Bapt John's baptizing out in the river in Israel and so um or in what. Today we would call Israel I should say um, but there in the in the Middle East probably in the the river connecting the sea of galilee and the dead sea is most likely but it could be another. Stream or river or or that he was in That's not named but like that's where he's at and so so people were baptized by John well they were down visiting the holy land maybe jerusalem during one of the festivals or something like that and now they've found their ways to ephesus.

04:42.19
Kevin Shock
You.

04:51.62
nathanpile
So and we know this about the the time of the Roman Empire is it's safer and so people do travel and they move around looking for other economic possibilities and so forth, but that was the thing that struck me was.

05:08.13
Kevin Shock
So.

05:10.92
nathanpile
That like I think of that time period that they stay closer to home like they didn't have cars and so in my own limiting way again limiting the people of the new testament because of my own ignorance or my own. Judgment that but they wouldn't like they wouldn't have covered those great distances like yes Paul or or another apostle a disciple that's sent to kind of go and share the message they would travel extensively but but here we're we're yes, we're hearing about. Apollos and we're hearing about Paul who are 2 apostles but these other people are way up in ephesus from down below. Um, so yeah, I'm a geography guy so I like geography and so um. Like I was I always enjoyed the history maps when the teachers pulled them out and said hey you have to label the history map. Yeah, that was I love that kind of exercising class. So um, but so this was interesting to me to kind of as you read them first at corinthon I was like okay Greece and then. Paul took a route interior I'm assuming interior means across the inland waters to Ephesus which would have taken instead of interior being through the land because interior through the land mean he was gonna have to go up I don't have a map in front of me but I'm pretty sure that.

06:26.91
Kevin Shock
Um, oh.

06:36.40
nathanpile
Water body of water goes up and so they would have to go up and around it to get down to ephesus. So.

06:40.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah I assume I assumed that's what they meant what it meant that they did it says he took a route through the interior. It.

06:47.99
nathanpile
Yeah, but I wonder if the interior is the interior waterways. Um, there's like there's a there's water there and so I would think that it wouldn't be as violent as out in the Mediterranean sea would have been. They'd have been. It would have been a little bit more sheltered so they could have gone across that interior water but I don't know that either.

06:51.38
Kevin Shock
Oh.

06:58.52
Kevin Shock
M.

07:06.34
nathanpile
There's so there's a question there for me Anyway I got I got caught up in the geography of it all and thinking about how these people really like as much as we think we know them this passage struck me as I don't really know as much about them as I think I do because they they they get around. They've traveled.

07:06.59
Kevin Shock
Well, but.

07:19.14
Kevin Shock
E.

07:24.58
Kevin Shock
Are.

07:25.34
nathanpile
Significantly here. So and I think of that for Paul I don't always think of that for apolllos but I do think of it for Paul but like the people in ephesus to say no, we were baptized by John well John wasn't traveling up in Asia minor.

07:40.25
Kevin Shock
Right? right? It means they were yeah right? they were traveling ah either they were traveling or the word was traveling or some combination of the 2

07:42.76
nathanpile
Least We have no evidence of that. Yeah.

07:51.71
nathanpile
Right now? Yep Yep! So what about you? What what word phrase or image struck you by this passage.

07:56.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah, ah.

08:05.17
Kevin Shock
Um, also not a ah not ah, not a like really deep thought but um, altogether there were about 12 people which um I think ah twofold one you know the book of acts.

08:13.65
nathanpile
Oh.

08:22.52
Kevin Shock
Um, not just the book of acts but the book of acts and does a lot of mirroring of things that happen in the gospel according to Luke ah scholars believe that they were both written by that or compiled by the same person at least um and ah.

08:34.59
nathanpile
M.

08:39.30
Kevin Shock
So the things that you see Jesus doing in the gospel according to Luke Jesus ' disciples do in the acts of the apostles. Um, so yeah, my my first thought was like oh yeah, of course there were about 12 because that's the number of disciples that there were in the Gospels. Um, but also the other thing that strikes me about this is that John Ert Notcha um Paul Paul is spreading the word um to small groups of people. Um, it's not It's not only that we hear a lot about Paul. Like preaching in the synagogues and such um, but he ah you know and he and he might he might kind of influence or or convert you know multiple people at a time or we hear about the day of pentecost in the acts of the apostles. When there were like 3000 people who were added to the number after they heard Peter preaching. Ah but it's not just big crowds that are joining the movement. It's um, it's little groups of people too and I think that that's. Think that's important for us to hear because um I think sometimes we get wrapped up I know we get wrapped up in the contemporary church with ah numbers numbers of people and I um I would love to get the message across. Ah.

10:06.31
nathanpile
E.

10:14.90
Kevin Shock
At least to the listeners of this podcast that ah you're not, you're not called as ah as a disciple or an apostle to convert hundreds and thousands of people ah to the way of Jesus um, but. In any case. Ah yeah, it. It makes a difference if you affect 1 person um in your life with you know how the way of Jesus is um and you probably have already done that without even. Knowing it necessarily. So I think you know I think I think the the Jesus the jesus movement is not a by leaps and bounds kind of movement it continues even a couple thousand years later to be um, a 1 person at a time movement. So yeah, that's what kind of.

11:10.61
nathanpile
Yeah, well and I appreciate that reflection um both reminding all of us that it's not about big numbers. Um, but it is you know the ministry is always you know they teach us this at seminary ministries about relationships.

11:12.49
Kevin Shock
Strikes me.

11:27.51
nathanpile
And relationships are one at a time and Jesus did it in his ministry Paul is doing it in his ministry and yet today we have these these ideas that we have to like it's not good unless it's big I don't think that's true. Um.

11:43.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

11:47.80
nathanpile
So so keep a keep at it the faithful 5 ten twelve. It's worth it.

12:01.43
nathanpile
Um, so I think we're gonna do this second time.

12:07.53
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, we are. Ah yeah.

12:13.43
nathanpile
I figure Burton could do some editing here. Um, so I think if we cut you if we if you go off and come back in I'm not sure what it's gonna do you see what I'm saying.

12:20.72
Kevin Shock
Okay. Oh I see I see Yeah okay, all right.

12:29.23
nathanpile
It's it's looking down below in the recording like you're solid and now you seem to be Okay, it was like right there at the very beginning as you were going I was like and you were just I was getting like ah ah like I could piece it together but I was really having to listen to make sure I I got what you were saying.

12:45.76
Kevin Shock
Oh well? Well and there are times when you've been like freezing on my screen too and the first time I saw you do it I thought oh shit I forgot to change. Oh I mean Burton cut that out. Please um, editing.

12:47.57
nathanpile
Um, but you're better. You're better now than you were so.

12:58.60
nathanpile
Ah, still editing Burton still editing.

13:03.60
Kevin Shock
Um I forgot I forgot to switch the router. So anyway, um yeah, okay, all right? um.

13:07.45
nathanpile
We just wanted to make sure there was a message in here for you burton someplace so make you know so it's just a personal personal touch all right? So we I said let's do it a second time so we're ready to do it a second time.

13:20.94
Kevin Shock
All right? We'll give it a bit of silencing then go.

13:32.31
nathanpile
Acts nineteen while Apollos was in corinth Paul took a route through the interior and came to ephesus where he found his disfound some disciples. He asked them did you receive the holy spirit when you came to believe. They replied. We've not even heard that there is a holy spirit then he said what baptism did you receive then they answered John's baptism Paul explained John Baptized with a baptism by which people showed. They were changing their hearts and lives it was a baptism that told people about the one who was coming after him. This is the one in whom they were to believe this one is Jesus after. They listened to paul they were baptized in the name of the lord Jesus when Paul placed his hands on them. The holy spirit came on them and they began speaking in other languages and prophesying altogether there were about 12 people so Kevin. Ah, toward. What is god calling you in this text.

14:45.36
Kevin Shock
Um I think god is calling me to be aware of ah people are in different places in how they've interacted with god um in their lifetime and I think that probably you know in the in the early church. There were. Yeah, there were tons of people. Well these these apostles included or these disciples included who didn't know about Jesus and I think that more and more in our contemporary society. Um, you know as we.

15:22.70
Kevin Shock
Live our life of faith and I hope that included in that life of faith is some sharing of the good news about Jesus we're going to encounter people who have never stepped foot in a church before and they know nothing about it and they maybe know nothing about him. Um.

15:34.21
nathanpile
What.

15:41.34
Kevin Shock
And I think that it's ah it's important for us to adopt that ah adopt that that way of being where we are understanding of the fact that people have had different experiences and different levels of interaction with the church. Or faith communities or ah god or jesus or the holy spirit 3 and 1 um yeah I just that that kind of that captures my attention because um, you know I can hear I can hear this. Conversation going a different way than what it did um you know verse 3 then he said what baptism did you receive then they answered John's baptism Paul responded to them you idiots don't you know that that's not the right baptism you know I mean I mean I say that tongue in cheek.

16:25.17
nathanpile
Um.

16:36.30
nathanpile
Ah, right? No absolutely sure.

16:39.77
Kevin Shock
but but I can but I can totally envision that happening both in I mean Paul Paul was pretty good at you know, like being open to people who didn't really know what was going on. Um, and I feel like in our.

16:42.21
nathanpile
Today.

16:55.28
Kevin Shock
In our current Era. We're not as good at being open to that although there probably are people who are um yeah I think I think I've I've heard the church people in the church too often. Ah, kind of berate people for not getting it right or not having the right Understanding. Instead of gently guiding them and yeah you right? right? Yeah, yeah, how right? How could you not have heard about this? Yeah right? I guess you hear that too. Yeah, when I Well I think about sometimes when I you know tell.

17:15.60
nathanpile
Or even being shocked even being shocked by what you haven't heard about this.

17:25.92
nathanpile
Well.

17:32.51
Kevin Shock
Tell Congregations or church leaders or whatever that you know you have to consider the people who've never stepped foot in a church. There are still people who are like who hasn't stuck put in a church I mean lots of people. Lots of people now.

17:43.70
nathanpile
Right? Yeah, yeah, well and and I appreciate your reflection in that that it takes on our part we have to shift a little bit in that we have to give up that judgment give up.

17:52.46
Kevin Shock
Are you.

18:02.35
nathanpile
Ah, up that shock. Um, we might be shocked by it but like in no way should we communicate that because we don't want to make it make the the person that we're talking with feel outside like you know.

18:16.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:20.70
nathanpile
So there is a part for us and and you and you've said all of that. So like that's the part I Appreciate of this is that this reminder for us that we are all coming at this differently and and we see this at Church Camp a lot anymore. Um that we have kids that.

18:33.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah, bet you do.

18:38.76
nathanpile
Don't know the bible don't um, don't know the stories of the bible and so like we have to introduce those stories and we have staff that are at that level like so you're talking about you know, high school college age that haven't encountered.

18:50.20
Kevin Shock
You are.

18:56.29
nathanpile
And so when you say the new testament they're what do you? What do you mean to the new testament. You know what? oh you're looking up up a gospel. It's one of the 4 first books of the new testament I don't know what that means? well it means the back third of your bible is what it means? um you know and so we have to be able to be to be.

19:07.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

19:15.88
nathanpile
More open to kind of share and and not cast judgment and be like how do you not know where this is um because because that shock Conveys a level of judgment because of the words that I've I've selected there. Um.

19:24.47
Kevin Shock
Are absolutely absolutely it sent it sends a message of what's wrong with you? Yeah, yeah.

19:35.46
nathanpile
Right? Yeah, so so I appreciate that that that again we're we're in a different era of the church and being able to. The only thing I can control are my own actions and my own words.

19:50.18
Kevin Shock
Fast.

19:53.35
nathanpile
And so being able to make space for these new individuals who are coming to believe and not to cast that judgment is I think a powerful piece. An example both of Paul here but also something for us to continue to recognize that we are in a post. Christian culture. There might been there might have been a time or there was a time in our american society culture where christianity.

20:13.58
Kevin Shock
A.

20:20.73
Kevin Shock
Is money.

20:25.28
nathanpile
Everyone everyone or felt like everyone It wasn't that everyone was a Christian but it felt like everyone or most people were christians that is no longer the case. So so thank you for your your piece there.

20:38.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so yeah, you bet? Um, what toward what is god calling you in this text. Nathan.

20:43.76
nathanpile
Um, for me, it was ah this idea of that word believe ah that we're called to believe and and ah and um and to break that down in. Trust. So for me that idea of um trusting god trusting the the the good news that Jesus is this one? um that we're to put our trust in. Jesus the Christ that Jesus that Jesus of Nazareth was Jesus the Christ Godson and and what that means for us and so to trust that to believe that. Um, that's what I this passage feels like. To me as ah, not the only thing but it's a piece of of what calls us to that and baptism as a lutheran christian baptism is one of the ways that we encounter god's gifts that helps us to believe and so we're we're having this conversation. You know that. Paul and these believers are having this conversation of baptism but that our and so that baptism is god's gift of blessing of the holy spirit coming upon and so that idea for us of coming to believe.

22:13.71
nathanpile
Is the piece here that sticks out to me and not that it's the prerequisite not that you believe to be given the gift but that it is that the baptism gift of Baptism is simply that a gift which.

22:19.11
Kevin Shock
Um, um.

22:33.90
nathanpile
Which is also about the giving of the holy spirit but it is a part of the journey of belief of trusting that Jesus is the 1

22:40.79
Kevin Shock
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and again, even with John the Baptist. It was not um oh well, you're not supposed to believe in me, it. It was clear to John the baptist that when he was when people were coming to him for the baptism of repentance that they were. They were putting their trust in something outside of themselves in god in in some kind of holy spirit movement that was happening at that time and John the baptist was pretty clear about saying okay but I'm not the one that you're supposed to trust the one that you are to trust is coming after me.

22:58.96
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

23:15.56
Kevin Shock
And and you'll know him when you see him. Um, you know here here. This is you know that I mean the thing that really really got me about this reading is the whole. We've not even heard that there is a holy spirit. Um, so these are these are people who are like.

23:34.13
nathanpile
Yeah f.

23:34.47
Kevin Shock
Really new to it. Um, and um and so you know it doesn't take much for Paul to say well you know you you came to this point you came to the point where you are because you're trusting in god in the way that you've learned to trust in god. And now I'm here to tell you there's more to it and so you know they don't like it's not like they go well I don't know if I can go that far. You know I mean it's none of that. It's like oh well. Okay, if this is.

23:55.90
nathanpile
Now.

24:08.46
Kevin Shock
If this is the natural next step or this is or this is what we're really called into then let it be so for us as well and you know Paul does it and and the holy spirit descends on them and that's you know that's the there they are. They've they've arrived um because god has brought them to this place. So yeah I I think that the um I think that's something I believe is a believe is a ah. How do I want to say it. It's a. It's a touchy word for me because we in our society put so much. Um, put so much stock in believing. Um, but we talk about believing like it's just head knowledge. Um, and and so.

24:58.42
nathanpile
Um.

25:00.23
Kevin Shock
A lot of times when we say things like we believe in god what we mean is we believe there is a god but but it's clear that there's not any any recognition of the god who's actually presented to us. In Jesus Christ or even in Hebrew scripture. Um, it's it's kind of a god of our own making and gosh there are people that you know I ah would hear me say that and say what the heck do you know you know I mean just because because i.

25:18.75
nathanpile
Yeah.

25:33.39
Kevin Shock
I see and hear the name of god invoked um in a variety of ways in our society in public. It's clear to me that the invocation of that name of god is sometimes done. Apart from any actual knowledge about who god is because the things are you know it's the whole. Um Jesus tells his disciples. Whatever you ask in? my name you will receive and um I've always interpreted that as or at least I don't know always I I interpret that now as ah. If you ask Jesus for something that is in line with who Jesus is and and is a request according to his reality then you know then that's somehow going to come to fruition. Um, but it doesn't it's not a magic name.

26:27.87
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

26:28.45
Kevin Shock
It's not you know it's not in the name of Jesus I want a brand new red corvette jesus doesn't care about what car you drive. Ah, you know there. There are many other things that Jesus you know Jesus might care that you have reliable transportation for you know for your own. Well-being um. But he doesn't it doesn't have to be a bright red new corvette. Um, that's you know Jesus has no interest in granting that wish so there are there are other things that are more consequential than a bright red new corvette that I hear people invoking god's name about um.

26:53.97
nathanpile
First right.

27:06.99
Kevin Shock
In public and I think oh yeah, that's not really, that's not really what God's about. But so I I say all that to say ah Belief is a head thing for us and when we hear about believe.

27:26.25
Kevin Shock
In scripture like you say it's ah it's about a trust thing. It's about it's about entrusting our lives to someone outside of ourselves and in this particular case Jesus so yeah.

27:46.39
nathanpile
Alright, let's do it.

27:46.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah, good. Um, question number 3 again again from acts 19 while Apollos was in corinth Paul took a route through the interior and came to ephesus where he found some disciples. He asked them did you receive the holy spirit when you came to believe they replied we have not even heard that there is a holy spirit then he said what baptism did you receive then they answered John's baptism Paul exclaimed Paul explained. John baptized with a baptism by which people showed they were changing their hearts and lives it was a baptism that told people about the one who was coming after him. This is the one in whom they were to believe this one is Jesus after they listened to paul they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus when Paul placed his hands on them. The holy spirit came on them and they began speaking in other languages and prophesying altogether there were about 12 people Nathan how do you deal with not knowing something about god.

28:57.96
nathanpile
I would say that as I reflected on this question. Um, ah, prior to your arrival here in the recording studio. Um I I thought of it like.

29:09.10
Kevin Shock
Okay.

29:14.13
nathanpile
If you asked me that question at 3 different time periods in my life I think I would have answered it 3 very different ways. Um because of where I myself was at in my own faith journey like these people in this story.

29:22.30
Kevin Shock
This here.

29:32.66
nathanpile
Um, there like when I was younger when I was a kid and even like when I was in the seminary when I went to seminary those 4 years in seminary I was really interested in reading as much as I could trying to get as. Much knowledge as I possibly could about knowing more or knowing something about God and and there were even times in that journey parts of journey where I would ask very specific questions and want to know something from the teacher or the or the pastor Or. Or the professor of so that I could know more about that. So I think in those ways um like there was a thirst for knowing more about God I Also then think that there's been times and and. And these overlap you know all of these time Periods overlap in my life. Um, when ah when not knowing something about God also made me feel insecure and so. How did I deal with it. Well sometimes I tried to cover it up that I didn't know it or other times I would have pretended like I knew it and just kind of gone along with whatever the person was saying and been like oh yeah, really? okay, um.

30:58.77
nathanpile
Ah, there would have been times in that time period when I felt those different kind that I had lots of questions in my own head I wouldn't have said them out loud but have been like really is this true can I can I fact check this someplace like is this?? Um, and then there would have even been times when. Like I'd doubted what the person was saying like I've never heard that I that can't be right? Um, So I think that too would have been a part of how I dealt with it so there would have been some judgment. There.

31:34.31
nathanpile
Or judgment saying and and and maybe sometimes not even being a question just me flat out judging them saying you're completely wrong. You don't know what you're talking about or your theology isn't right that there would have been times like that. The absolutely I can think of and.

31:42.37
Kevin Shock
E.

31:52.15
nathanpile
In college times and and um, um, even probably after college. Um, as like a camp director a young camp director not and thinking that I had it all figured out but kind of feeling like I had. Had ah understanding between my lutheran Christian Beliefs and understandings and some other denomination. Maybe a nondenominational or a fundamentalistic church or something like that that I would have had very very um. Judgmental attitudes tour and so somebody's telling me something and and I would just discount it making judgment about that. But I I think ah and I and and both of those ways that I deal with knowledge in my past would I would say. Still at times show up in my life today. But I think as a pastor one of the things that I've learned and and and this is an over and over again, kind of learning is that and it in it. And it gets lived out in this Podcast. We talk you and I talk about it. A lot is being able to hear other people's experiences of God helps me now see a bigger God and so I am much more open to.

33:16.13
Kevin Shock
And.

33:21.94
nathanpile
Allowing someone else to share something that they know about God that I might not know about than I was at other times in my life doesn't mean that those other 2 parts of of knowledge and God don't still creep in to my life. But I Think. Now of of all of the phases of where I've been into my life now I'm much more open to dealing with oh I didn't I've never thought of it that way I've never considered that way and that helps me to see God in a bigger Way. So There's much more excitement for me. In not knowing and hearing somebody else's perspective So That's a lot to say but that's my that when I when I saw that question earlier and and this passage our interpreting of this passage is time through kind of fits with with that in that that.

33:58.72
Kevin Shock
E e.

34:17.73
nathanpile
I would say that there that's been an ongoing development of my own in being able to as I'm learning about God and being open to what other people have to say about God and and then how do I How do I deal with that new knowledge as I encounter it.

34:37.85
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah I think that ah there were definitely Yeah, there were definitely times in life when I would have answered this question differently.

34:49.80
Kevin Shock
Then I do now as well and and probably in pretty in pretty similar ways to how you've answered the question. Um, but the things that you say that resonate with me now one is I'm I'm much more Okay, not knowing everything about God. Now and and ah and maybe it goes back to actually what I said in the last question and that is that um my interaction with God is not not about what not about head knowledge but about um.

35:27.79
Kevin Shock
About my relationship with God and so you know you get to a point where you you feel much more secure in any relationship whether it's with God or with another human being. Um.

35:43.94
Kevin Shock
You know if the if the relationship is evolving in a healthy way and I think that that's where I am now I feel like I'm secure in my relationship with god um doesn't mean it's perfect. It doesn't mean that you know I'm not always chummy with god or I'm you know I'm not like. Um, things aren't exactly the way that I would want it? Um I think being secure and being having having a secure relationship or a trustworthy relationship and having a perfect relationship or 2 different things. Um, so I do think that I don't. I don't worry as much anymore about not knowing something and part of the reason I share that is not so that people who are hearing this say. Um, oh geez well Kevin and really has a better relationship with god than I do um I'm really sharing that in order to say. Ah, if you don't know everything about god not you Nathan but you who is listening to this. Um, it's probably okay, you'll probably um, yeah like you'll you'll probably get through it and god will continue to be faithful to you and um.

36:49.25
nathanpile
Yeah.

37:00.97
Kevin Shock
You might be overthinking it? Um, but also I recognize that there are some things that we really want to know about God things that will affect our relationship with God in either positive or negative ways that we really crave knowing and I think for me, um, The. The additional answer to this question is I I have trusted people in my life that I can go to and say what do you think about this and I think that that's an important. That's an important part of being in Christian community together because if there's something that I that I feel like I need to know about God and I don't know it someone else Out. There has an answer for me. Um, and sometimes it might just be. I Might not even get the answer I I think I'm looking for but it may just be through conversation with somebody else I arrive in a place where I'm either. Okay, not knowing that thing or ah or I get some kind of new revelation About. What that thing might be so I Yeah I mean that that's my encouragement to people who are listening to this as well is like there are there are plenty of people out there out in the world and and I think for the listeners of our podcast. You can consider.

38:32.90
Kevin Shock
Ah, me and Nathan to be 2 of those people that if there's really something you're struggling with um, we're happy to have a conversation with you about it. Um, that's just part of I think that I I feel like I I feel confident that I can speak for Nathan in this regard. That's just part of who we are in what we feel our call to be as just Christian people as as human christians right? right? Not even necessarily no well it it? Um, it.

38:59.70
nathanpile
Humans Human christians. Yeah, it has nothing to do with being pastor has nothing to do with being pastor. It does but but.

39:09.29
Kevin Shock
I Think it has to do with being pastor in this and only in the sense that we feel comfortable being those people for other people and so and so um, having some level of comfort in having discussions around mystery or difficult topics. Um I think that that is a gift that is useful for pastors. But you're right our our ability to do that does not come from us being a pastor. It's really the other way around. Um so and and that's also to say that ah that person that you ask these questions about does not have to be a pastor. It can be you know. I mean I have people I have people in my life who ah are in a in a kind of mentoring relationship to me I think I could say mentoring or they're they're people that I look to for guidance and. Um, sometimes they are younger than I am and they have less experience and they are in a different place when it comes to their faith. Ah and they're and more most importantly, they're not church leaders or or they're not pastors specifically. Um. And I gain a lot of wisdom from discussions with those people too. So I can yeah I mean I can think of a couple of people right off the top of my head.

40:39.48
nathanpile
Oh and there's I again this goes back to to um to what I was what I was sharing is is.. There's There's a richness of how God is interacting in our world and it's. Far more than I can take in as one human being and so the the the collective knowledge of all of us the connected collective experience of all of us sharing. Um.

40:57.87
Kevin Shock
He.

41:12.70
nathanpile
you know, thinking about you know just thinking about the last year the number of new interpretations and I wouldn't say that they they probably weren't drastically new but they were new to me and that's why it gets the word new, but it was ah it was somebody that somebody something that someone said I was in ah in ah, an inner. Conversation with or and or maybe this is an ongoing conversation but that someone reflected about something that they were reading in scripture or something that they were wrestling with in their own faith and I thought boy there's something that helps me see god um. And when I was younger I would have probably been more likely to do one of the other things of cross it off as not not something I need to think about or that doesn't really fit with the with the the system or frame of reference that I use and so just kind of put it off to the side now i'm. Much more willing to kind of take that in and say okay now what is god trying to teach me or tell me about that I that ah that my lens has been too limited on how do I need to expand or update my my prescription so I can see more clearly what it is that god is doing in the world.

42:27.38
Kevin Shock
I.

42:29.35
nathanpile
Um, and that really has you know that's really just come with time which I always hated that answer when I was young of people said whoa. You know it comes with time now and that now can I just have it all right now but it does I do think being able to have your own.

42:39.69
Kevin Shock
Here.

42:47.92
nathanpile
System and be able to edit that system. It takes time being willing to kind of do that, Especially when we talk about and think about God and that and that we have these rich this rich cloud of witnesses with us to kind of help us. Um, see God and God's love in in the world and to mold that into our lives to make it a part of um of our hearts and the way that we live our lives going back to that idea of trust you know we have trust in the one.

43:26.50
nathanpile
Um, which is to and and that trust leads us to live life differently. So.

43:29.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:33.90
nathanpile
And that's really why I take that's why why we can't do this in in mass production. This is why ministry is a 1 on 1 time honored tradition ministry is is that kind of living together and.

43:42.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:53.35
nathanpile
Practicing our faith.

43:55.38
Kevin Shock
Right? right? Yeah and and and I think that's because I mean this I feel like this fits in with things other things we've said in this episode um Ministry It is not about information sharing. It's about relationship building.

44:08.71
nathanpile
The.

44:12.10
Kevin Shock
Um, god is not about information sharing but relationship building even even in the reading we have today you know it surface level. It seems to be about information sharing like you know, ah you know we haven't heard that there's a holy spirit.

44:26.11
nathanpile
My.

44:31.58
Kevin Shock
But it's interesting to me when looking at this this text when they said we've not even heard that there is a holy spirit Paul never tells them about the holy spirit. He explains that they were baptized with a particular baptism that pointed to a new baptism and then when Paul placed his hands on them when he after he baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus he placed his hands on them and they received the holy spirit there. Yeah that they experienced it for themselves. Yeah, yeah, there was no well let me tell you about the holy spirit. No, it was just let let's let's engage in this relationship and.

45:10.61
nathanpile
No, they experienced it for themselves.

45:24.91
Kevin Shock
And and you'll learn who the holy spirit is and I think I I know that that's how that's how faith works among people how the gift of faith is transmitted and communicated. Yeah that's just the way it is. There were other things I wanted to say but they're probably not important up. Oh well, no the 1 thing right? I well mostly I couldn't just couldn't remember what I wanted to say I just want to lift up. That's why Nathan and I do this podcast. It's it's not. It's not about you know sharing I mean we could you know I mean Nathan Nathan did do a little bit in telling you about the geography of the region and this podcast but um, it wasn't because that was the topic necessarily um I mean we could. We could lecture you know about scripture we have that ability.

46:12.45
nathanpile
Right? right.

46:19.99
Kevin Shock
But that's not it. It's not going to do what we hope that the spirit does through this podcast. Um, this is about engaging with scripture. It's about engaging with other people and I think Nathan and I can both testify that. Um.

46:39.70
Kevin Shock
You know our our relationship has grown changed through doing this podcast and through having these regular discussions with one another. Um, it's just it's worthwhile. It's worthwhile. Ah I don't know how else to say it and I don't know how to make people believe that. Um, but I suspect that if you're listening to this, you probably already believe that in some regard. So yeah.

47:10.68
nathanpile
Well, Ah, well your face looks pensive. You have something else here all right? all right.

47:14.30
Kevin Shock
Now you, you're you're right I was contemplating things but there's nothing else to add? No I was just kind of resting with it for a minute. Yeah.

47:21.37
nathanpile
All right? Yeah, all right additional text that you can look towards genesis one the the story of creation god creates light so genesis 1 versus 1 through 5 is an additional text. Um, connects to this passage psalm 29 the voice of the lord is upon the waters and Mark chapter 1 verses 4 through eleven the revelation of Christ as god's servant. Um, so Kevin thank you for your reflections. Happy New Year to everybody as we launch off into 2024 here. But thank you Kevin for your sharing of your of your thoughts here on the on the passageo and acts. And if there are ways that you would like to share your reflections again. The social media and email are in the outro or and the and the post role that you can listen to and contact us there and we would be. Happy to engage with you in those either on social media or in email and to kind of dig deeper. We hope to tend our faith again. Are we hope to so tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

48:50.49
Kevin Shock
And peace.