Episode 08: 2 Corinthians 4:3-6

Translation: New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What will you proclaim?

Additional texts:
2 Kings 2:1-12
Psalm 50:1-6
Mark 9:2-9

Transcript

00:01.74
Kevin Shock
Do do do do do do do It's time to tend I I I just composed that. Yeah well I thought about it a brief period in my life back in high school. But um, anyway.

00:04.30
nathanpile
Well, that's catchy I'm surprised I'm I'm surprised you didn't go into jingles.

00:19.33
Kevin Shock
Ah, today friends we are going to tend tend and friend rhyme. That's fun, um, looking at second corinthians chapter 4 verses 3 through 6 the translation that Nathan and I will be reading from is the net bible the new english translation. Ah, you're welcome to use. Whatever translation works best for you and ah or find that translation on biblegateway.com or the Biblegateway app. Um Nathan I do have to say a few episodes ago I said something about um, my mother might be getting me. A new Ce study bible and it came in the mail this week I'm so I know I know I was very surprised. It was an early birthday present and I was um I was falling asleep last night reading study notes and stuff like that because that's the kind of nerd I am.

00:59.49
nathanpile
Um, your birthday is not for like another month way to go mom.

01:16.10
Kevin Shock
Ah, yeah, yeah, we do ah so our 3 questions for this week what word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is god calling you in this text and what will you proclaim.

01:16.38
nathanpile
Mama Shot Mama Shock We love you.

01:33.13
nathanpile
All right? a disclaimer about who we are. We are men married to women in financially stable households white in our late 40 s college and seminary educated we work in the Lutheran Church and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania it is still snowy here for anybody that cares all of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of these make us better able to read or discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and one another so we want to know what you hear and think from your life's perspective. Second corinthians the fourth chapter verses 3 through 6 the new english translation. But even if our gospel is veiled. It is veiled only to those who are perishing among whom the god of this age. Has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of god for we do not proclaim ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves.

03:08.88
nathanpile
For Jesus's sake for god who said, let light shine out of darkness is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of god in the face of Christ.

03:29.88
nathanpile
Well um, if you're meeting with a group you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own Kevin what word phrase or image strikes you in this text.

03:43.80
Kevin Shock
Ah I'm grateful to Paul for saying that it is the god of this age who has how does how does it say it in this text who has blinded the minds of those who do not believe um, ah. Sometimes there are there are implications made in scripture that um god so like you know, a big example is an exodus when god hardens the heart of pharaoh. Um, ah and it almost makes it sound like you know.

04:14.63
nathanpile
And.

04:20.83
Kevin Shock
God doesn't want but certain people to hear the good news to know the gifts of God to be a part of the community. Um here. It very clearly says that it's the God of this age and that's since you're listening to this dear listeners. It's. Um God little G in in all the translations. Um, and so you know I mean we might say idle I don't know what the greek word is there but um, it's yeah, it's it's stuff that we chase after ah and things that we put our.

04:41.58
nathanpile
There we go? Yeah no.

04:58.96
Kevin Shock
Allegiance toward that keep us from recognizing receiving the good news that exists from god in Jesus Christ um and Nathan and I have conversations about this stuff all the time about. You know what's what's the what's the barrier that we individually experience toward deeper life with god um, what's the barrier that the church experiences or I should say the barriers. What are the barriers that the church experiences that keep us from. Living more fully into the call that we have as the whole church. Um, it's all stuff that we chase in this world. It's all stuff that we put our energy into put our time into um and as the ah discussion that Nathan and I just had very recently. Um. We even start to do it without even noticing it because it's just how everything operates around us. Um, it's a part of culture right? right? and and in in fact, that conversation helped it to make sense to me as to why you know like god.

05:59.12
nathanpile
Yeah, it's a part of culture.

06:11.29
Kevin Shock
Um, there are certain prohibitions in Hebrew scripture against the people of god the israelites um, intermarrying with people of with the local people quote unquote um, and you know and bringing like the household gods into their households and things like that. Like I I always I think when I was much younger I always thought about you know? Ah, okay, so you bring some like you know some little so little stone icons into your house like what's the big deal. Um, but when you put it in the when you put it in the context of. The idols of this age. The idols of this world. The things we chase after um, then it really begins to make sense as to why ah why god you know warns against that. Um and and and it's that very thing. That that culture as it evolves and culture as we experience it infiltrates our lives in ways that sometimes we can't even control. Um and um or we're not even aware of. And and and any of that stuff threatens to take us farther away from god to in Paul's words to veiling the gospel for us both veiling it? Um, so that we don't.

07:42.95
Kevin Shock
Receive it but also veiling it so that we keep it to ourselves and don't proclaim it to anybody else. That's where I'm going to end my reflection right now.

07:51.90
nathanpile
Well and and um I I appreciate um that piece because I do think um that we can um. We can drink the kool-aid would be a phrase that I use often when I talk about how we accept and live into our culture and um I Do it. Everyone does it like oh I'd like a beggar television for my wall.

08:23.54
Kevin Shock
A.

08:29.29
nathanpile
Or um, you know that that that more is better that that some of those pieces of our culture. Um, they are um, they're tempting.

08:30.81
Kevin Shock
Yes, yes.

08:45.81
Kevin Shock
Right? right.

08:46.96
nathanpile
They they pull us into those kinds of things and so um and so like I you know, watch a commercial or or I see an ad in in a magazine that I'm reading and I'm like ooh I'd like to do that or I get an email like vbros like or pinterest you know. Here are some log cabins Nathan we know you love them. Um, and I'm like oh that would be a nice you know and so then then your head goes racing down dreaming about things that I can't afford will never be able to afford and and probably in all reality wouldn't. Um, do but and and so this idea of a god of this age. Um, yes, we are broken and sinful human beings. But sometimes it's. It's and you said it where we just kind of discount it as saying well I can't change anything about that I models of just live in this world. Well but but it I think there is things that we can do about it and I really.

09:48.13
Kevin Shock
Right.

10:02.23
nathanpile
I've I becoming more and more than I believe that it is our generations all of the generations that are alive right now. Whatever you know I'm not into all of the generational breakups Necessarily they're they're helpful but they get ah they can be confusing to us. But everybody. That's alive right now I think a part of our call is to push back against culture. It's what the reformation was and continues to be about.. It's pushing back of culture to the way God calls us to live. And to say we're going to do this differently?? Um, and I think the God of this age um to to to to give it some names would be for me would be um, consumerism.

10:39.48
Kevin Shock
E.

10:58.57
nathanpile
Capitalism the drive for more. Um, you know that that to me is the God of the age. It's definitely money is involved in it. Um, you know so you can say money's the God of the age too for me. Because there there are things that that the rest of us form our lives around to either acquire or to use to get more of to to to build the life that we think it needs to be and I think. That idea of the God of this age which every age can be different for us I think those are the things that kind of fit the spot for me right now of what success looks like um is if you have.

11:48.45
Kevin Shock
E.

11:54.25
nathanpile
You have money and you're able to control it and do with with what you want that that seems like that's pretty much the the the the God of our age. Um, and so that that part of this. So. So for me the the phrase was that God of this age. I Read that in this translation. Um, and and it being all Lowercase letters. So It's not Capital G God So It's not God blinding the minds. It's it's our culture blinds us. Um, and I think that that's you know.

12:19.82
Kevin Shock
Right.

12:32.74
nathanpile
I'm an american and I love everything that you know the access the freedom that we have the the consumer goods that we have everyone will tell you that I'm um, I'm an Apple I love apple things and so I have the newest phone and the newest watch and and the newest computer and um. Um, and so I I want to have you know I have that want of of a part of of me you know I want a pickup truck. Um those those are all my wants and and I have all of those things because I too am a part of the god of this age.

13:02.30
Kevin Shock
Oh.

13:08.10
Kevin Shock
E.

13:09.41
nathanpile
Um, and so how do I How do I wrestle with that as a Christian today. Um and recognize that the God of this age has taken a firm hold of my life.

13:28.29
nathanpile
And that I'm in it. Yeah like I'm I'm planted in it like everyone else. Um, and when I have problems I try to solve them with the God of this age as opposed to other solutions.

13:48.59
Kevin Shock
Um.

13:50.54
nathanpile
Um, and and and the God of this age causes us to think about things from its perspective which is a part of this. You know this veiled piece. You know that it veils the gospel from us because it says.

14:05.30
Kevin Shock
Right? right.

14:08.47
nathanpile
That this is the way that you succeed This is the way that you overcome this challenge. Um, as opposed to what God might say.

14:12.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah there there are things that our call our our culture presents as givens that we're not to question that don't aren't necessarily Givens I mean you know there's.

14:29.17
nathanpile
Right? because culture says it's given doesn't mean that it's given.

14:31.38
Kevin Shock
There's a lot of things about art right? right? Yeah yeah, and and and because it's cultural. We are. We are certainly um um I don't want to say we're entirely bound by culture but it can be hard to. Ah, live into an alternative reality. Um, but I think when we are thoughtful about it. There are ways that we can push back against culture and I'm not and I'm not saying like culture wholesale is bad. But I am talking about the things that get in the way of us living out the great commandments of Jesus to love god with our whole being and to love our neighbors just as well. Um, there are things that we can certainly do to push to to. Allow that force to drive us more in our life than all of the other forces that are are around us. So but but there's a lot There's a lot implicitly that the forces around us cultural forces. Do to say.

15:35.71
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

15:46.38
Kevin Shock
It's not important for you to love some so some God um or important for you to love the people around you you know you are your own God That's something that our culture says and it doesn't.

16:03.45
nathanpile
Um, yeah, there it is yeah.

16:05.35
Kevin Shock
Um, and it doesn't say it explicitly in that way but it certainly does like our whole our whole striving for success you know and and making your 5 year plan and um, taking looking out for number one that that all points to you are your own god.

16:22.11
nathanpile
Yeah, no.

16:24.88
Kevin Shock
And um, what you know what? how the church might talk about that differently or the people of God might talk about when I say the church I mean the people of God might talk about that differently is to say you know you have you have a calling in your life. Um, you've been given certain gifts.

16:44.81
Kevin Shock
Ah, to serve the world and the people around you and and let's help you explore what those gifts are so that you can live into ah being who god made you to be and that's not to say that there's a specific plan for you. But you know there might be a variety of ways that you live into your gifts and and you know your job. Might not even be 1 of the ways that you live into your gifts but it might enable you to to share your gifts with others. Um because it you know supports you and your household and things like that. So yeah I mean that's just that's just a small hypothetical. Really general example. Um. But I think it's good for people to think about the fact that the world tells us you are your own god and what what you what? you think is best for you is what's best for you and anyone who gets in your way is a problem. And anyone who anyone who a distraction Yeah yeah, right, right? right? It's it's more important that you take care of yourself than it is that you take care of the people around you which which that statement is antibiblical paul

17:41.72
nathanpile
Or and maybe and maybe not a problem but ah, but matter less yeah or distraction right? that they matter less. Yeah.

17:56.30
nathanpile
Right? absolutely.

18:00.88
Kevin Shock
Who wrote second Corinthians writes very clearly in Philippians that it's more important for you to look after the needs of others than it is to look after your own needs and and the reason for that is not so that you become a doormat. But to create a world where everyone is looking out for everyone else's needs and so no one goes without. I Know we live in a world where it's you know, put it I'm I'm making a metaphor out of something that is ah that is a logical ah necessity and that is the whole like um, put put your oxygen mask on before you put it on the passenger next to you.

18:39.23
nathanpile
Right.

18:40.94
Kevin Shock
You know when they drop out of the airplane. Um, but we expand that to so many other things in life and I think I think the reality is you know if you if someone comes and knocks on your door and again this is a big hypothetical.

18:45.62
nathanpile
Right? right.

19:00.66
Kevin Shock
And is hungry and you already have dinner made like like you're ready to eat you are going to. There's something within us within our God given beings that says.

19:05.20
nathanpile
Perfect.

19:18.30
Kevin Shock
It makes sense now that you make sure that that person is is filled with what they need to be filled with and and your needs like your needs will be taken care Of. So Don't worry about like whether you get more food or they get more food in this meal. Like they're here before you now like I I Truly believe that there's something inside of human beings that says it's more important for you to feed them right now and your needs are being taken care Of. You will be taken care of so you know that. Again, That's ah, that's like a specific hypothetical though I I think for us to extend that to all of life is much much more difficult because because we're told if you don't if you don't take care of yourself like. Someone else is going to swoop in and take what you need. That's the other thing is that the culture makes everything a zerosum situation and it's not God God Talks about you know, there's an abundance for everybody. It's not.. It's not if someone else gets something then you can't have it. No, it's that there's enough to go around for everybody but ah.

20:12.66
nathanpile
Bright break right.

20:29.48
Kevin Shock
I'm getting way off base. So do you have? um, do you have other ah words phrase or images that you want to speak to Nathan oh okay, okay.

20:38.36
nathanpile
No, no mine was the God of this age and so when you when you articulated that that was my the way that that this this translation is ah is built was kind of what.

20:54.48
Kevin Shock
Okay, all right great. Well let's read it a second time then from second corinthians 4 versus 3 through 6 But even if our gospel is veiled. It is veiled only to those who are perishing.

20:54.90
nathanpile
Kind of stuck out to me there.

21:10.26
Kevin Shock
Among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so that they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ who is the image of god for we do not proclaim ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus' ' sake for god who said, let light shine out of darkness is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of god in the face of Christ Nathan toward what is god calling you in this text.

21:43.20
nathanpile
Ah, to be looking for light to be looking for the face of Christ. Um, though I also hear in this what you and I just talked about. Ah, is that um that at times even in my own life. The veil of society can cause me to perish. Um.

22:18.42
nathanpile
And and so so that that piece of getting caught up in um, any of the slogans. Um I had to focus on myself first or um, make myself the god.

22:34.37
Kevin Shock
M.

22:38.15
nathanpile
Or um, you know that that when I get when I get caught up in cultural um directions or currents. Um, they can be a part of why I perish.

22:57.65
nathanpile
Um, or why I'm perishing why I don't why why? think things don't feel right or the direction where like I don't feel like life's going the way that I want and so to be reminded that I need to be seeking I need to be seeking um or I need to be looking for. Christ's face I need to look be looking for god in the world. Um, so that I that that that brings that message of the of a different way of a different way of living.

23:36.46
nathanpile
And and I think a part of this passage says to me that that I can see God and so maybe I need to hear that too that I'm that I need to be reminded that I can see God Um, maybe not in the way.

23:55.73
nathanpile
Of some of those pictures on um on Italian Church domes of a a man with a big white beard um reaching down you know that I'm not going to see god in those ways but I'm going to see god in the world. Um, because of Christ and so being able to know that that is happening and is occurring but that I need to be to to practice seeing god seeking god in the world. Um, so that I don't get tied up and lost in the veil um of of of the god of this age. So I think that would be my short. Um, that's not really short, but that would be my short.

24:45.40
Kevin Shock
Um.

24:52.91
nathanpile
Ah, to what I feel God calling me in this passage is is is recognizing that I too can be blinded. Um and so away through that time. Period.

24:53.49
Kevin Shock
Um.

25:09.30
Kevin Shock
Me.

25:09.33
nathanpile
Or those those phases of life is to to be to be seeing or seeking to see God in the world and this passage tells me that that God is in the world as that light that that that image that God is.

25:20.83
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.

25:29.70
nathanpile
In in Christ and in light in others um in the holy spirit that continues to speak to us today but that I can I can become lost seeking the way of the world as opposed. To seeking the way of Christ.

25:48.49
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah.

25:55.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's um I mean I think that that's good ah good counsel um that I yeah I mean Paul the thing that Paul does here and I think necessarily so in his writing that it's you know it.

26:12.78
Kevin Shock
The god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe and you know he necessarily gramatically uses well he uses Greek but it's translated as those people those people and ah.

26:27.82
nathanpile
Ah.

26:30.20
Kevin Shock
And um I know we've talked on here before about believe and believing and trusting and how you know believing is ah is a head thing and trusting is like a whole being thing. Um, which is what.

26:45.72
nathanpile
It is.

26:49.45
Kevin Shock
Biblical writers are more interested in. Um, so there are times in our lives when we do not trust God or we do not believe in God We do not put our trust in God because we're putting our trust in other things in the world. Um, and.

27:05.50
nathanpile
No.

27:09.12
Kevin Shock
So I think it's It's not just those people who are in trouble here. It can be us who fall into that trap as well. Um, my answer for this is ah to work on taking down the veils that exist in our world that.

27:25.96
nathanpile
M.

27:28.40
Kevin Shock
The the veils that that um will veil the gospel from from other people's recognition and and the way that I think about doing that this is a very ah church lutheran theology answer. But um. In our tradition Martin Luther talks about what he calls the theology of the cross. Ah and that is that you know it's not um, ah a theology of glory focuses on you know the resurrection which of course the resurrection is a. Glorious thing. Um, but kind of sweeps death under the rug. The theology of the cross um shows names Jesus's suffering and death for the sake of others as the most important thing that happens in scripture. Um, it's not the resurrection. That's the the resurrection is a part of it but but the the giving himself over so that others may have life is is the central thing and and so one way that we talk about the theology of the cross in our tradition. Is that um 1 thing you do is that you name a thing for what it is you you call a thing a thing there's no kind of like tiptoeing around stuff if someone is suffering you name their suffering that's theology of the cross. Um.

29:02.62
Kevin Shock
And so how this relates to what we've been talking about in this episode for me is that if something if there's something that our culture Upholds as being important or priority but it is not helpful for all people. I Think it's good for us to name that um you know I think um, you know we kind of we we have lived in ages you and I have grown up in ages where there's ah, there's a deference to the people who have um.

29:22.19
nathanpile
If.

29:39.98
Kevin Shock
The most money and I I think as you know as we've gotten older you and I and and others that I know have become a little more cynical about that that myth that you know the more you have the better off you are um, the reality is. Ah, when someone has so much money that they can't possibly do ah do with it in their lifetime. You know, ah, it's it's hoarding it and hoarding wealth is harmful to all of society. It's it's something that our culture tells us is a good thing. Um, but. In reality is not actually good. It might be good for 1 person but we could probably even come up with reasons why it's not good for that one person but it's definitely not good for um for all of society. So that's just 1 example I think. I think there are things that we take for granted that we take as truth and that we that. Ah um, live into the myth that this is a good thing but it's really not good for everybody and um i. I feel called to like I don't think I have to be on a street corner saying you know look I don't think that'll be helpful but when I hear people talk about these other gods in our world. Um, maybe I could be a little more emboldened to say this isn't actually a.

31:13.25
Kevin Shock
Ah, helpful way for us to think you know if if if we are at all concerned with honoring the God who gives us life and loving the people around us. So yeah.

31:27.30
nathanpile
Well and I I deeply appreciate what you say there because this is removing the veil and and you've done a very nice job of not naming it. But I'm going to name it removing the veil of Capitalism is one of those hard things. For me to be able to help us as God's people um invision dream about another way of living um and and and and I say that also admitting.

31:58.97
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah.

32:06.38
nathanpile
That capitalism has brought great wealth and freedom to the United States of America of which I am a citizen of um and I'm not positive that there's another financial economic system that would.

32:12.67
Kevin Shock
Sure sure sure.

32:25.84
nathanpile
Do it as well as it has done it for for us in the United States however the pushback is just what you said. It's not a perfect system. There are still people that that that suffer and are.

32:43.97
nathanpile
That the people that the rich getting richer means that everyone below the rich are suffering in some way or form.

32:59.82
nathanpile
Um, and that's the part that I think is like how how do we talk about this.? How do we live into removing this veil from a part of our culture. Um I don't. I'm not smart enough to know another economic system that we can put in its place I guess I'm hopeful that we could simply make some changes to capitalism that allows it to be a better system for all.

33:18.85
Kevin Shock
Well.

33:35.63
nathanpile
But again, it's a human-made system. So it's not going to be perfect. There's going to be problems with it. But I do feel as you you know as as you were talking boy that is a veil that weighs heavy and and I feel inadequate at being able to address it.

33:37.12
Kevin Shock
Well. Well.

33:55.57
nathanpile
Other than being able to locally again with my own dollars and in the communities that I live in be able to be an advocate for those who are in need and being being somebody that can help. Um, bring them a life of dignity in the midst of where they're at um, but also to be able to look at the system and to be able to name it as you said and and and to to help others see. Um. the brokenness the injustice whatever it is in the system in that moment in time because it's not perfect. Doesn't mean I want to throw it out but I do want to figure out how do we do it? How might we do it better. Is there a way to do it. Better. Um, as opposed to just letting the system be the system and say oh there's nothing we can do about it. Um, so so I appreciated your that idea of um of how do we remove the veil.

34:58.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

35:08.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well and um, well and I think I think um, if if anyone if any for the people who are. Um, shaking their fist at us and um have not yet turned off the podcast I will say I think I think it's important I think it's important to name like I think I think just a wholesale criticism of capitalism is is going to turn people off I understand that and and you and I kind of.

35:56.46
nathanpile
Sure sure Yeah, that.

36:01.35
Kevin Shock
We we can't throw that around like you know, but but but we also both know what we're talking about so what you named is true is that capitalism has that system has made us the pretty much the wealthiest nation in the world at least at 1 point.

36:17.11
nathanpile
They have yep to.

36:20.35
Kevin Shock
Um, so I live in the wealthiest nation in the world and I constantly see people around me who need government assistance to pay for food and and every town that that exists around me has a church that is distributing free food to residents on a weekly basis.

36:38.40
nathanpile
Um, weekly basis. Yeah.

36:40.90
Kevin Shock
And um, and and you know we all I don't know the exact statistics but you know how many how many what percentage of children go to bed hungry in this country. So I think we can look at those 2 things wealthiest nation in the world.

36:59.42
Kevin Shock
Lots of people who aren't getting what they need to say there's something wrong. There's something wrong and and um and you know and thinking about like the whole you know I mean I've heard all of the tropes that you know well. Ah.

37:04.11
nathanpile
Right? friend.

37:16.74
Kevin Shock
You know? Well you, you'd be able to buy food if you didn't have a cell phone if you didn't have cable Tv if you didn't smoke cigarettes. You know, just just live a better life. Well, first of all who do any of you know who doesn't have a cell phone and and having a cell phone is. Is for a lot of people a necessary thing for them to maintain a job. Um, you know and and having cable Tv or Internet Internet is a necessary thing for people to have to maintain a job nowadays. Um, so this is not like you know.

37:36.29
nathanpile
That yep.

37:52.95
Kevin Shock
There are all kinds of situations where people have things um that they can't just easily let go of or that the entire world around them is saying just buy what you need and so like the world has done a job of convincing them that they need things that perhaps they don't need I don't know. But um, and and it's not to say that they're powerless against it. But I think you and I have already talked Nathan about some ways that we are powerless against you know, certain influences that tell us what we need to buy and things like that I mean that this is part of the the. Money is one of the gods of this age. That's we cannot deny that you know the yeah the um, our our our paper money. Well and our and our coinage in this nation say in god we trust on them. but it's it's not talking about the judeochristian god ah look let's I think people think it is but it's not it's not I mean it might as well say in this god we trust on it? Um, but anyway that's something else entirely. I just say that to say that I think I think that we can you know we can actually we can actually name like specific criticisms that I think people can generally agree on the world should not exist in this way and it's not just about money.

39:19.60
Kevin Shock
It's about Information. It's about Politics. It's about all kinds of Stuff. You know there are there are numerous themes that we could look at and for me, the big thing is becoming is is this stuff that I'm buying into not not financially, but this stuff that I'm kind of. Taking as an assuming as a given is this stuff helping me to live ah in ah, a deeper life with God and to love my neighbors better and if it's not then it's probably not worth my time and energy.

39:58.49
Kevin Shock
Now there? Um, we're going to have to make certain concessions because they're going. You know I mean well right now our system is not set up to to fight the notion that like I need a job to live I I do need a job to live one day I would like us to get to the point where people. Don't people could have varying ah paying jobs and still be supported in who they are and and I'm not talking about you know like people I want people to be as lazy as they want to be I'm not talking about that I'm talking about people being able to share their gifts with the world. In a way that where they are financially and socially and ah provisionally supported. That's that's all I mean that's all I mean.

40:52.67
Kevin Shock
Everyone has something that they're passionate about but um, but how many people actually get to live out their passion as a part of their career. Not many I'm very I'm very privileged that that I'm that I'm able to be in the career that I am ah.

41:00.51
nathanpile
Right? right? Yeah me too.

41:12.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, even on the days when I don't like it ah very privileged to be in the career that I am yeah even on the days that I think about doing something else entirely I'm very privileged to be in the career that I am I recognize that even though I'm still paying off debt from you know. My my education to be in I still will say I'm very privileged to be in the career that I am it. It helps me to it helps me to live into um, a greater understanding of who I am who God is and who the people around me are.

41:51.67
Kevin Shock
So that's a privilege. Okay, ah should we look at this a third time Nathan.

41:56.60
nathanpile
I say we do it I say we do it a third time.

42:03.92
nathanpile
But even if our gospel is veiled. It is veiled only to those who are perishing among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ. Who is the image of god for we do not proclaim ourselves but Christ Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus' ' sake for god who said, let light shine out of darkness. Is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of god in the face of Christ.

42:51.79
nathanpile
Oh what will you proclaim? Kevin.

42:55.94
Kevin Shock
There is greater life for this world than what we can currently envision not just not just the age to come. But right now there's there is that there are.

43:03.89
nathanpile
And.

43:15.13
Kevin Shock
There is greater I don't know a better way to say it. There's greater life for humankind and all of creation that is available to us right now if if only if only the the gods that we. The gods of this age that blind our minds to seeing it are removed I think we can envision it and um I I I will say I have to say that though the though.

43:53.66
Kevin Shock
Um, the way the the truth in the life that I envision is made known to me through god in Christ um, and I know that that that language um i.

44:10.65
Kevin Shock
I guess I guess I phrased it the way I did it because um, talking to a stranger and saying um I don't know saying saying something. Pithy or trite about Jesus might not necessarily mean anything to them. Um, the way that the way that I live toward them that Jesus informs me to do might make a very big difference in their lives even right from the get go.

44:44.30
nathanpile
Now.

44:48.55
Kevin Shock
Um, but I think I think speaking hope to somebody proclaiming that. Um there's that there's a better life in store for all of us is some is is kind of is basic human language that I think. People can understand and and I say this because I know that this is not the kind of thing that I would proclaim ah just in in bits and pieces here and there to complete and total strangers. This is the kind of thing I'm going to talk about with people that I'm either in or going to be in relationship with so I'm not I'm not um, Jesus will not be excluded from my proclamation over time. Ah, but I but I pray. Jesus will be evident in how I live with them and not just the words that I say had a I had a great I had a great conversation yesterday with a couple of people. Ah someone who's going through candidacy in our synod toward ordained ministry and ah. And 1 of your former professors Nathan Gil Wald Koenig um and and we had a we had a really good conversation around. You know you you can say a thousand times to somebody god loves you but they'll really get it whenever you show them.

46:17.14
nathanpile
Yeah now now.

46:17.44
Kevin Shock
God loves you whenever you live it for them. The word the words the the specific words themselves are meaningless without the the love lived out behind it.

46:32.79
nathanpile
Now.

46:36.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so anyway, that's what I would proclaim what about you? Nathan what will you proclaim.

46:44.23
nathanpile
Um, well I my my answer was simple but complex in that my answer is that that that I would I will I do proclaim and and try to continue to do so. Um, that that we are loved that that god's people are loved by god the the challenge of that is in our culture and and and and um, you know I I was a little bit more flippant and you were. Um, more compassionate maybe in in my conversation around capitalism um, but recognizing that we need to talk about the hard truths of capitalism and how do I do that in a loving way. So that we can see that there are problems with the god of this age. Um and see them together so that we can work in tearing those down because just of what you just said because it's important for everyone else to know. That they are also loved. But it's hard to feel loved when you have a problem living a life of dignity in the world and so how do we today? Um I think the thing that makes me nervous about your question is how do we proclaim.

48:03.81
Kevin Shock
M.

48:14.81
Kevin Shock
M.

48:16.37
nathanpile
Like I I have a sense of what I will proclaim. But how do we do it in a way that we that I can get others to join with us and seek ways to make our systems better so that others feel the same Love. The the love that we're we're talking about and naming for Them. How do we help them claim it if our world makes them feel like that. They're not loved and so for us the church.

48:46.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:52.23
nathanpile
And and and and when I say the church I mean the people of God Um, how do we? The people of God begin to critically look at the world in which we live and that we are a part of and how do we deconstruct it in ways.

49:11.19
nathanpile
Um, so that so that all of god's people can can live that life of dignity that that is so important for us to to feel like we're um to feel like we're loved and so. Um, we are the hands and the feet of and the voice of Christ in the world today I believe that the holy spirit works through us while god is present in doing things in today's world and so um.

49:50.22
nathanpile
I Want to proclaim God's love but I want to do it in some radical ways that that are going to scare us that are going to challenge us to to put down the things that where how we've gained security to put those down to sacrifice those things again, you talked about the way of the cross. Sacrifice Some of those parts of our lives so that we might build a something um that helps lift up others in that. So I think that's where I'm that's where I would fall with the the what I brought what what I will proclaim.

50:20.86
Kevin Shock
Um.

50:29.40
nathanpile
I Don't think it's you know it's right with everything you were saying um I think the thing that your question pulls up for me is is how will I strive to do that in such a way that helps others. Um.

50:47.68
nathanpile
Live into God's way which is which is different than money's way.

50:50.69
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.

50:59.31
Kevin Shock
Um, well I Ah I'll I'll confess that I I struggled over whether to use this question or to start the question with the word hal. What will you proclaim or how will you proclaim.

51:10.39
nathanpile
I know.

51:14.78
Kevin Shock
I thought that I thought that ah what would be a more basic question that would you know allow um allow us and allow our listeners to think about it more deeply but I think that that other question that you raised Nathan is just as important. Yeah, how how how.

51:27.70
nathanpile
No Yeah, and I think for me would be how you know as ah as a as a one called to preach as a pastor doesn't mean that only pastors can preach but but as one that that's my I feel that calling. And and trust that calling. Um I need to have more conversations with um with other christians of figuring out. How can we talk about this in ways that can bring about. Um, change in our in our in our day and age or as you said it how to to help us remove veils that that are that are getting in our way of living more fully into God's way.

52:12.58
Kevin Shock
Is.

52:26.80
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah I'm I mean what? what you say all comes back to where I went and that is I Really I Really truly believe that.

52:38.41
Kevin Shock
There's There's a better life in store for this whole world and and and that it's that it is right before us it is right before us. Um, when all the veils are removed um and you know and sometimes I think I've gotten to the age or.

52:39.53
nathanpile
A that's.

52:58.43
Kevin Shock
Or this the state of my faith I don't know how to say it. But um, where I Ah, ah. I Don't know sometimes I'm I'm listening to things on the news or reading things and and I think to myself it doesn't even matter which side of this argument I'm on because this isn't even the right argument to be had.

53:23.29
nathanpile
No.

53:25.87
Kevin Shock
Do you know what? I mean I you know hear people go back and forth about stuff and this is you know there there either. This isn't the root problem that we should be addressing or or this isn't really an issue and people are making it into an issue. Um. A lot of that stuff happens in our world because we are following other gods and ah and I I think I'm just at a point where I'm I'm most interested in us figuring out how to love God and God's world with our whole being and. And to love our neighbors in the same way now. Yeah, it's it's It's more simplistic The older I get. But yeah, anyway, it's good things to talk about um because I do think that sometimes.

54:22.13
Kevin Shock
At at its best discussion of it can can influence action that happens after it so all right? Well let's ah you know if if there are other things that you're interested in um, addressing in scripture here are some texts related to this one. Ah, that you can you know at least do the first 2 questions on if not the third um second Kings chapter 2 verses 1 through 12 elijah is taken up to heaven and succeeded by elishha the Prophet ah psalm 50 versus 1 through 6 out of zion. Perfect in beauty god shines forth in glory. It's really a beautiful psalm 50 verses 1 through 6 is a really beautiful passage of scripture and I almost chose that one but then got wrapped up in Paul um, ah, Mark 9 verses 2 through 9 is the revelation the revealing of Christ as god's beloved son. The veil is removed in this passage. Um, this is ah um, the the readings. Ah, for this week are the the church that we're a part of our tradition and many other christian traditions observe the what's called the transfiguration of Christ on the last Sunday before Ash Wednesday and it's always a reading from the gospel where Jesus is on the mountaintop with Peter.

55:54.94
Kevin Shock
Ah, Peter James and John and um and his appearance changes and they come to realize that he is indeed the son of god um and moses and and ah Elijah usually show up in that vision too and.

56:10.77
nathanpile
And.

56:13.90
Kevin Shock
So anyway and then Jesus you know after after things are revealed and Peter says hey let's ah, let's build some shelters and stay up here a while. Ah Jesus kind of says. Nope we have stuff to do down there with the people so we're going back down there. Yeah, which is also a great part of these readings.

56:30.38
Kevin Shock
So we hope that our reflections um help ah prime the pump for some of your reflections and that scripture really is you know that all of this is even though Nathan and I talk about lots of stuff that we have opinions about a lot of it comes out of you know the readings that are that we. Present the readings that we that we study together so we hope that our reflections like I said help prime the pump for your reflections and that your reflections lead you into a deeper a deeper exploration of your life with god and with other people. And we as always hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

57:09.90
nathanpile
And peace.