Episode 11: Mark 8:31-38

Translation: New Revised Standard Ver. updated ed. (NRSVue)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
How do you deny yourself?

Additional texts:
Genesis 17:1-7, 15-16
Psalm 22:23-31
Romans 4:13-25

Transcript

00:01.36
nathanpile
It's a beautiful day out there. It must be time to tend. We hope it's a beautiful day wherever you are today. It's a higher 52 is sun here in West Central pennsylvania so we hope it's a nice, beautiful sunny day.

00:05.52
Kevin Shock
We hope it's a beautiful day wherever you are yeah.

00:19.97
nathanpile
And if it's not I hope you get a nice day like this sometimes in but it is time to 10 nonetheless and so today we are going to look at the bible passage Mark the eighth chapter versus 31 through 38 we're going to read it in the new revised standard version updated edition and you can follow along with whatever bible you have there close at hand or you can look it up on bible gateway if you like the 3 questions that we will be discussing 2 are familiar. What word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is god calling you in this text and the third question. How do you deny yourself the whole wow. Um.

01:11.91
Kevin Shock
A disclaimer about who we are ah Nathan and Kevin are men married to women in financially stable households white in our late 40 s college and seminary educated. Work in the lutheran church and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania all of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and with one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your perspective and life experience. So for Mark the eighth chapter versus 31 through 38 then Jesus began to teach them that the son of man must undergo. Great suffering and be rejected by the elders the chief priests and the scribes and be killed and after three days rise again he said all this quite openly and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But turning and looking at his disciples. He rebuked Peter and said get behind me satan for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things he called the crowd with his disciples and said to them if any wish to come after me, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

02:31.39
Kevin Shock
For those who want to save their life will lose it and those who lose their life for my sake and for the sake of the gospel will save it for what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life indeed. What can they give in return for their life. Those who are ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation of them. The son of man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels if you are meeting with a group ah to study and discuss this scripture. Ah, you're invited to pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own Nathan since it's just you and me here what word phrase or image strikes you in this text.

03:18.56
nathanpile
Ah, the word as you read it today was rejected it stuck out to me there at the very beginning of this passage. Ah and and this in Mark Mark is telling us a story um of. Son of man and how this is going to play out but that idea that that this story is going to play out by being rejected and by not just being rejected but essentially being rejected by the. At least the most powerful and influential of the jewish leaders are who the rejection is about or who's going to be the 1 doing the the rejecting and therefore jesus would be suffering so that you know that was the phrase just before the son of man must undergo. Great suffering and be rejected but there was something about that that caught my imagination as you read it and then of course I went into my own kind of thought vortex my own thought cloud for a little bit here and thinking about all of these named leaders. Um. And that we spend a lot of time um not being rejected in in life and society. Um.

04:45.47
nathanpile
You know as as young people and and now as somebody that that oversees young people trying to make sure young people don't hurt each other in ways that they cause each other to like that their one social group is rejecting another social group those kinds of things and so we try to balance that out but here it's it's evident that this son of man must. Live through that very human um, hurtful process of being rejected and so that that stuck out to me today as I as you as you read that like that that this is this is what you have to look forward to son of man.

05:15.52
Kevin Shock
In.

05:22.94
nathanpile
And he's he's teaching his disciples that but but it's that idea of knowing that boy I have to be rejected for this for what is to be accomplished to be accomplished is.

05:35.11
Kevin Shock
Well, um I the thing that you said right there at the end of your reflection is um, made me think of it in a whole new light and I think and that was you said this hurtful thing. Um because Jesus. Talks about his rejection so matter of factly I think it's easy for me to overlook the idea that this is something that was hurtful for him that um I mean it? Um, yeah, ok, he knows about it. He knows it's going to happen. Ah, but he is. He's human and and how how could you not be heard if well ok if if the like if the leaders are you know that you're opposed to and I don't mean you know Jesus was he wasn't picking fights with them but just. The way that they lived versus the way that he lived it was in opposition to each other if they reject him. You know there's a sense of like so what? Um, but but we have to remember that Jesus was also rejected by those who profess to love him and those who were following him. And how could he not be hurt by that. Um, yeah, like like I said he in this reading he talks about it so matter of factly like it's like he's reporting news that I think it's easy for me to overlook that he yeah that he's going to be hurt by this this is going to be a difficult thing for him to deal with.

06:56.48
nathanpile
Right? right.

07:05.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah, good.

07:07.25
nathanpile
Well and and and it's these leaders that are going to turn those who um, were were following or were listening to Jesus just days before it's these leaders who are going to turn. Um. Are going to turn the the people against Jesus. So yeah, like none of us think about in our own lives of like at least I don't and I think I'm somewhat a normal human being like we don't think about.

07:27.50
Kevin Shock
Right? yeah.

07:41.34
nathanpile
Boy I'm going to have to really suffer here to but like as we think about the future like it's not like anything we can do to avoid it that would be great like that that that's our mindset and and he's as you said talking about a very manner matter of factly but but is also going to live through it.

07:50.99
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.

08:00.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah I mean I don't I don't at this point in my life I don't spend a lot of time thinking about rejection? Um, but ah also like I you know I can remember times of my life when I did think about that. Um. I Don't know that I would have voiced it in that way necessarily. But um I you know I think I think like young people you know Teenagers Preteens Young adults think a lot about like I feel like there was at least for me there was a lot of emotional. Ah.

08:35.39
Kevin Shock
Um, what's the word. Ah um, emotional labor that was involved with me like you know, being worried if I was going to be liked. You know I mean thanks like that. Um, and and I would I would like to think that you know Jesus um.

08:43.49
nathanpile
Well yeah.

08:51.95
Kevin Shock
Doesn't I mean Jesus isn't a teenager at this point so I would like to think that he doesn't really you know he's not um, it's not a constant worry on his mind. But also I mean he can't there's no way he can be immune from it entirely. So yeah.

09:03.32
nathanpile
Right? Like when I was 30 I still thought thought about some of the things that I thought about when I was a teenager you know about especially around acceptance and about being wanting to fit in.

09:09.30
Kevin Shock
Sure. yeah yeah yeah I agree well in at that age. You're trying to I know the culture is different now than it was' in Jesus's time but at that age I was still trying to like find you know my circle of people I was still like.

09:25.33
nathanpile
Right down.

09:27.80
Kevin Shock
I was still in the midst of trying to figure out my identity and and at that age I would have been I also would have been in seminary too. So I was being formed in a yeah like into a calling and a career that I still had I still had a lot of work. Figure out what this was going to mean for my life and such yeah and for the lives of people around me. So yeah, well I appreciate that I'm ah that reminder that Jesus is indeed human um, yeah for me, it's um, he said all this quite openly.

09:55.25
nathanpile
No, what word fraser image strikes you in this text.

10:04.12
Kevin Shock
I Just you know there's something about um I appreciate that that kind of it's almost a throwaway line. Ah um, in fact, um, I'm having as I'm looking here at the.

10:04.66
nathanpile
E.

10:20.64
Kevin Shock
Computer screen I'm having trouble finding oh there it is to be getting at 32 yeah he said all this quite openly. Um you know there's not I appreciate the fact that Jesus is not secretive about this stuff. Um I think he does look for the right time to reveal these things to his.

10:21.41
nathanpile
So 32 verse 32 yeah

10:39.40
Kevin Shock
Disciples I I think if you know if he if he called them and then you know gave like a oh by the way. Ah you know? yeah right right? right? right? Um I think they probably would have said. Ah yeah I'm not I'm not so sure I want to follow this guy anymore. Um.

10:45.28
nathanpile
This is all gonna end horribly.

10:58.41
Kevin Shock
But um, yeah I mean he he says it openly and and I was I was looking through a commentary in one of my bibles. Um, kind of not not for this text particularly but in the same area and you know there are there are times in Mark when Mark tells. Um, he tells the demons who know about him not to be open not to speak. He commands them not to speak and they're also I think in mark times when he I know at least in the first chapter There's a time when he heals somebody and tells that person not to tell people. Um.

11:22.13
nathanpile
Right.

11:31.54
nathanpile
Yeah, not to tell anybody no.

11:36.77
Kevin Shock
And I think I think some of it I mean the way that I've always explained that away in my own mind and when I've been talking to people about it is that Jesus he had to be in control of the message in order for um, in order for it to be effective in the way that that he wanted it to be effective. And I think like I said part of that was not being not revealing too much too early so that people wouldn't get turned off or get frightened or you know whatever it might be um, it didn't mean that he didn't want the people to know that because here he's well. He says all this quite openly? Um, but yeah, if if they had heard some of these things too early on it. It would have definitely had an effect on the ministry that he was doing and and I just um I i. Just preached this morning as we're recording this um this morning on mark one and um and it occurs to me in I never really thought about it in other gospels but in Mark's gospel everything happens so precisely so quickly.

12:51.57
Kevin Shock
Jesus really had to have like a like a pr strategy for how he was proclaiming this message um or else like like there was so much that would endanger the good news if it weren't.

13:11.24
Kevin Shock
Spoken and lived out in just the way that Jesus did it. Um, and and I mentioned Mark one because that's when that's when his fame begins to spread and everyone is looking for him and and and part of what I preached on this morning was just that.

13:13.49
nathanpile
Me.

13:28.50
Kevin Shock
People want to make Jesus into who they want him to be not who he actually is and and I think that this is this is more evidence of that for me that he had to be in control of the message for it to be as effective as it was is so.

13:32.46
nathanpile
In.

13:39.24
nathanpile
Yeah, well on this time. It's not just general public here. It's specifically Peter it's a disciple who is trying to make Jesus into who he wants and who he thinks Jesus should be.

13:47.16
Kevin Shock
It's disciples. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:57.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah, exactly right? Yeah yeah, and so ah, although I feel a little bad for Peter that um, that ah that Jesus gives him a pretty public rebuke. Ah um, it's it's necessary so that the not to shame Peter but so that.

14:06.81
nathanpile
Right now.

14:14.90
Kevin Shock
It's clear what Jesus wants the disciples to know. So yeah, well, um, let's look yep look at it a second time. Oh you're up.

14:22.18
nathanpile
Yeah, limit. Let's do it a second time.

14:30.13
nathanpile
I'm up then he began to teach them that the son of man must undergo. Great suffering and be rejected by the elders the chief priests and the scribes and be killed and after three days rise again he said all this quite openly and Peter.

14:46.50
nathanpile
Took him aside and began to rebuke him but turning and looking at his disciples. He rebuked Peter and said get behind me satan for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things he called the crowd. With his disciples and said to them if any wish to come after me, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me for those who want to save their life will lose it and those who lose their life for my sake and for the sake of the gospel. Will save it for what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life indeed. What can they give in return for their life. Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation of them. The son of man. Also be ashamed when he comes in glory of his father with the holy angels toward what is god calling you in this text text. Kevin.

15:57.54
Kevin Shock
Um I.

16:03.54
Kevin Shock
Ah I I feel like I answer this too much too often lately? Um I don't I don't really know I the whole the whole last the last 5 verses of this reading. Um.

16:20.51
Kevin Shock
Really is a lot for people to think about I feel like I mean I think you know it like intellectually speaking it's I think it's somewhat easy to summarize all that Jesus is saying here. Um.

16:37.82
Kevin Shock
Using the um the verse 33 The the verse that comes right before it that you know maybe this is my answer here. Um I'm being called to set my mind on divine things not on human things. Um, but there is There's so much in here about you know denying themselves. Taking up their cross following me ah those who want to save their life will lose it Those who lose their life for my sake will gain it um like that's just a lot to unpack I feel like especially when we're trying to live that out. Um, so I Yeah I I guess my answer is simply I feel like I'm being called to set my mind on divine things and not on human things and and what I interpret that to mean is that god. Is calling me to see things the way that God sees them and to respond to them the way that God responds to them um to to leave my own will out of it. Which is I mean is is pretty much impossible. Um, but at least maybe then to be aware of how my own will the way that I want things affects how I live in the world and how I.

17:57.11
nathanpile
Sure.

18:11.19
Kevin Shock
Interact with God and interact with other people. Um, that was a long answer that I don't even know if I really gave an answer. But.

18:19.66
nathanpile
Well I appreciate it and and the long list of things that kind of feel like they're after 34 that that Mark kind of lists for us. Um, how do how do we? as. As followers of Christ. How do we make this not a list of of that we gotta do these things. Do you get a sense of that here like.

18:49.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:52.80
nathanpile
You know, unless you really deny yourself then you're not following me unless you're really given everything up, you're not. You know we have this tendency in the Christian faith and and that's true for lutheran denominations. All all denominations. Nondenominational.

18:55.56
Kevin Shock
And then.

19:11.27
nathanpile
Think we have this tendency in because of our secular society to say well give me give me what it looks like that I have to do to company be. It's a little bit like the the ah the the lawyer who comes to Jesus with the good samarit you know during.

19:20.54
Kevin Shock
Oh.

19:28.60
nathanpile
Jesus does his response is the good samaritan the story essentially like how much do I really need to you know honor love my neighbor kind of a thing like who's my neighbor really you know and so we have this this tendency of us as human beings that.

19:37.90
Kevin Shock
Um, right.

19:44.36
nathanpile
There's a list here and and this obviously is a pretty significant so and and I think you put the way you phrased it I appreciated is in that it's not about me but it's about striving to live into God's ways. But again I Still think that there's a temptation here Of. Of us as the church to be able to say well if you're not doing these things if you're not behaving this way then you're not good enough.

20:10.68
Kevin Shock
Yeah I I hear I hear what you're saying um I mean ah the way I would respond to that is first of all, um, being not good enough is um, like taking care of that issue. Is completely up to Jesus and not up to us I mean that's that's our tradition teaches that but I believe that with my whole heart. Um I cannot I cannot by my own accord or will or strength save myself from the power of sin and death. I can't do it. There's I will never be able to do it and so I have to rely on Jesus to do that for me now since that is a given that Jesus takes care of that for me then I am free to live. The way that Jesus would want me to live and and and live um in to to borrow a ah phrase from you know and an ancient Christian writing to live in imitation of him and I think that's what I think that's what following is here. So so the question is. For me is not you know are these these are not things on my this isn't a question but in my mind these are not things on a checklist because where I can where I can check it and say oh okay, I'm done like I got that out of the way you know.

21:36.90
nathanpile
Um, it's not a one. It's not a 1 time deal.

21:36.36
Kevin Shock
And I denied myself. Um, you know I'm never gonna have to do that. It's not a onetime deal. No it's in in In fact, our in our tradition. Um in in the in lutheran theology lutheran christian theology. It's talked about as um, a daily. Dying and rising. Ah this. So for me this is not a list of things to check off. This is a this is like a an ongoing ah and I don't want to say litmus test but but like a guide for how. We really live into the people that to being the people that god has made us to be and that is denying ourselves taking up our cross following living in imitation of Christ following Jesus um, not not having regard.

22:30.71
Kevin Shock
Not having our chief concern be our own life because god already holds that in god's hands. Um, so it's not so much a checklist as it is like a um, a a a guide I think I mean that's that's what I would. And it's not a guide for how to be saved. Um, it's a guide for how we live into the life that Jesus has given us.

23:04.77
Kevin Shock
I don't even remember how we got there. But that's yeah, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay well I'd I'd like to hear Nathan what? what is god calling you toward in this text.

23:07.60
nathanpile
Well because I I I was I asked you a question and you just answered it very very thoughtfully So well, it's It's to follow me to follow and. And all of the pieces that you've talked about um are a part of that and so being able to um to seek to live into the way of the christ. Um, that. That that sacrifices is a part of his life living among us. Um, and I think living at being a Christian in our current culture Today. It's hard for me to.

24:00.66
Kevin Shock
No.

24:04.25
nathanpile
Envision being a Christian without there being some sacrifice not necessarily that I am killed but that I that it's not always about me and my things. At some point I have to put some of my own things down to be able to follow. Ah, the christ to to to live into the the path of love that God calls me to to forgive others like I have to put down my own things.

24:24.10
Kevin Shock
M.

24:40.26
nathanpile
So that I'm able to um to be on this path and so to do that. Um, my sacrifice will never be what what? Christ's sacrifice has been for us. But there's there's in my mind or in my way of.

24:41.90
Kevin Shock
Um.

24:58.90
nathanpile
Of of understanding in my system of of belief. Um, as I live into or as I live into following Um, that means I will need to give up something you know and and um.

25:18.22
Kevin Shock
Um.

25:18.85
nathanpile
And to do that in such a way. Um, that mirrors that reflects um the love that Jesus gives to me so there's things like that I make sacrifices for my daughter you know you know that would be an example here as a parent.

25:34.76
Kevin Shock
Um.

25:37.41
nathanpile
Simple example for me to kind of say there's things that I choose not to do for myself because I know I have to go pick up Rachel in an hour. You know that's ah that's a very very simple thing but like if I know the thing that I'm gonna do is gonna take 2 hours and then Rachel's not gonna get.

25:46.27
Kevin Shock
I Yeah yeah.

25:55.85
nathanpile
Picked up and I would be a terrible parent. Um, you know and so I would make that you know that's a small idea of sacrifice. But I think when we talk about Love Love has sacrificed as a part of it. Um and and or in this.

26:12.14
Kevin Shock
Um.

26:14.84
nathanpile
Passage deny like that I deny what if I'm going to sit and watch a 2 hour movie um yes I could turn off the movie and come back and turn it back on. But oh you know we live in that kind of a day and age now unless you're still watching it on you know on your cable television. Um, but recognizing that there are there are you know? and and I'm using something pretty pretty small there but there are other sacrifices. There are other choices that that we that I make in my life as a parent. Um. So that I might be a better parent to my child. Um, and I think the same is true for us if we're going to live in love loving the other means that it's places in our journey. We deny ourselves. Um.

27:07.38
Kevin Shock
He.

27:11.80
nathanpile
All all of the things that we want whereas in secular society. It's like do whatever you want, You're the you're you know you're the but we have to recognize that that that's not completely a true. Ah, it's not completely true I Think if we're going to true to try to live in. Love that that. That there's part of us that lives into um that you have to give up some of the things that I want so that I can be attentive to the needs of others. So.

27:49.24
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah, um, yeah I Just think about how many times you hear phrases like ah you need to take some me time where I need to take some me time and and we and we talk about. Um.

28:00.34
nathanpile
Yeah, okay.

28:05.41
Kevin Shock
You know people definitely have different um ah different ways of engaging in self-care and and I and I acknowledge and recognize that taking care of oneself is an important thing. You can't just you can't just give and give and give and give and give. Um, without any you know any attention to your your own needs if someone else is not meeting those. Um I mean you know very simply speaking like make make sure you drink enough water and and don't. Don't forget to eat a meal. You know I mean I mean simple stuff like that get enough sleep. You know those kind of things. Um because even Jesus ah you know and it happens more than once in Mark where um, he he's doing a ton of ministry and then he.

28:46.92
nathanpile
Me.

29:01.43
Kevin Shock
Ah, he sneaks off and goes to a deserted place a place where no one else is around and um, any any prays you know he sits there and he prays and and I don't I don't know what his prayer sounded like um. But I can imagine that you know echoing that the scripture from romans chapter 8 um that his his prayer might have had just a lot of deep breathing and sighing with it and trusting that the holy spirit was.

29:28.98
nathanpile
Can interpret that.

29:35.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah, was interpreting and and communicating between between god his father in heaven and and and Jesus um, yeah I mean he had take care of himself so that that's a long roundabout way to say that. Ah you know those things are important. However I also feel like I see people. Um. Using those phrases and taking those ideas and and abusing them like like um, you know, caring caring for myself I feel like I've seen people say that you know that means I'm not going to I'm not going to have any regard for people around me and that's not that. Like that's just not healthy. It's not healthy. Um I think about I think it was in this podcast last season sometime or maybe it was somewhere else but I'm pretty sure it was in the podcast we were talking about the the four happiness hormones. Um, ah and.

30:29.16
nathanpile
Ah, yeah, we did talk about that. You're right? yeah.

30:31.38
Kevin Shock
And and thinking that like you know, 2 of them like dopamine and I can't remember which one the other one is but um, 2 of them are like you know when I when I accomplish something you know like like when I get something done. Um, when I cross something off my list that like gives me a ah dopamine you know or or like or I get you know i.

30:46.56
nathanpile
Um, now.

30:51.33
Kevin Shock
I go back to the Facebook post that I posted um 10 seconds ago and see that 7 people have liked it already. You know that's that's like a dopamine kind of thing. Um, but then the the other two are um, are hormones that are released whenever we are um. Building community and and recognizing the connection that we have with other people and I feel like that's the kind of stuff that you know that we can we can receive even physiologically speaking we can receive um, ah. Confirmation affirmation and and a good feeling by or even when we deny ourselves and live in love for the sake of somebody else. Yeah, so well. Denying ourselves. Why don't we why don't we move into the third question because I think this is a good time to segue all right from Mark chapter 8 then Jesus began to teach them that the son of man must undergo. Great suffering and be rejected by the elders the chief priests and the scribes.

31:51.20
nathanpile
Yeah yep, yep.

32:08.45
Kevin Shock
And be killed and after three days rise again he said all this quite openly and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him but turning and looking at his disciples. He rebuked Peter and said get behind me satan for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things. He called the crowd with his disciples and said to them if any wish to come after me, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me for those who want to save their life will lose it and those who lose their life for my sake and for the sake of the gospel will save it. For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life indeed. What can they give in return for their life. Those who are ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation of them. The son of man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his father. With the holy angels Nathan how do you deny yourself. It's a scary question.

33:16.14
nathanpile
Um, yeah, sorry I got stuck there this time with the the end of that reading I guess I was in my own thought vortex I guess I was in my own thought vortex the first 2 times we were reading it in the deny stuff.

33:21.43
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, that's yeah, that's a whole other.

33:28.90
Kevin Shock
But you can talk about the end if you want.

33:33.43
nathanpile
Ah, just the idea of those who are shamed of me and of my words. Um, so that that's just startling to me. Um.

33:47.32
nathanpile
Like I wonder about what kind of people that looks like like those who are ashamed of Jesus and of Jesus's words but just the son of man will also be ashamed of them.

33:58.42
Kevin Shock
M.

34:05.38
nathanpile
You kind of a thing and so you're like do we do we are are we ashamed of who this Jesus is and maybe we maybe some are gets. It's just not a response that I think about having are on jesus' actions and words teachings. Um.

34:05.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

34:14.63
Kevin Shock
Well.

34:22.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but I think um I mean I I'm not trying to it like too quickly explain but ah but I do think that? Um, what what? Jesus ends up doing especially around these things. Um you know? ah.

34:27.91
nathanpile
Sure.

34:40.54
Kevin Shock
Undergoing Great suffering rejection um, being killed those are all things that um, the world. The forces of the world would tell us to avoid those at all cost and and so.

34:52.25
nathanpile
Absolutely yeah, but.

34:58.80
Kevin Shock
I think it's entirely plausible that there are going to be people who look upon Jesus and think that it's what he goes through is humiliating and disgusting and not in a sense of like um oh I can't believe he's done that for me this humiliating thing but in a sense of like.

35:18.46
Kevin Shock
You know, like why didn't Why didn't he do something to save himself. He had this. He had this whole group of people there who would have risen up and and fought on his behalf and and he certainly could have you know if he had power over the demons. He certainly could have had power over all of the elders and Chief priests and scribes.

35:19.44
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

35:37.61
Kevin Shock
Why did he let himself be killed I mean I think ah yeah I think it's I think it's for for those of us who live a life of faith. It's hard for us to think that what Jesus does is humiliating but but I'm sure there are other.

35:57.39
Kevin Shock
Um, there are other places in our life that if we are called to live out the way of Jesus we might be ashamed of living that out. Um, because of how the world encourages us to be and to act.

36:16.10
Kevin Shock
I think maybe I'm starting to answer the question instead of you Nathan I think even the the question is I posed it. so yeah so anyway let's go back to what your reflection. Yeah.

36:19.86
nathanpile
that's okay, that's okay sure yeah so um ah my reflection. How do you deny yourself. It's interesting because just this morning as I was reading the. I don't read. Ah I don't have a newspaper but essentially I was reading the news. 1 of the articles I was reading was talking about. Um how it was it was it went really deep into psychology. So I was talking about Freud and the super ego. And how with our super ego we make judgment of others and when we make judgment of others. It takes away from the the little voice in our heads that tells us all the time that how we're not good enough and all of those pieces. Um and and so it was interesting. Your question. Um.

37:06.47
Kevin Shock
Oh.

37:14.30
nathanpile
Has me thinking of you know of of how do I deny myself. Um I would say that I'm probably not very good at it. Um, and and and times when I might be trying to do it or struggling to do it.

37:33.80
nathanpile
My super ego jumps she jumps in and helps me out and I just judge others for like I don't need to that say I don't need to deny myself to do this these people over there. They're not even doing what I'm doing kind of a thing and so um.

37:40.30
Kevin Shock
M.

37:52.23
nathanpile
And so there are times. Um.

37:59.39
nathanpile
There are times. Um, but I would say my that idea of denying myself I I I am not good at that.

38:15.97
nathanpile
Um, in that my own head and judgment is is I'm able to convince myself pretty easily to um to.

38:33.60
nathanpile
Go back. You know I might make a commitment early and then kind of slide on it because I can convince myself I can talkck myself out of it like Wow This is really harder than I thought it was gonna be um, but that's not the voice I hear instead what I hear is.

38:37.49
Kevin Shock
He. E.

38:48.39
nathanpile
Um, well you did that for a while um but doesn't really make you a better person or did it did it. How did it help you in some way shape or form. Um as I think about living as a follower of Christ um and and making sacrifice for others. Even if I do that for a short time like so like let's say for summer like I make a lot of sacrifices in summer in my schedule both with my family with my downtime but boy by the end of the summer I've ah I don't feel good about that sacrifice or to now now I'm like. Exhausted and angry that I've done it ah kind of a thing and so so then I talk myself out of of that in those ways and so that idea of how do I deny myself my answer would be that I don't do it? Well um.

39:27.20
Kevin Shock
M.

39:41.61
Kevin Shock
And.

39:43.14
nathanpile
You know, like've ah for a month I've tried to stop like doing caffeine and watch my portion sizes because you know I'm getting closer to 50 so I'd like to lose a couple of pounds but you know it's not like a new year's resolution or anything because I always fail miserably at those anyway. Um. But when it comes to denying myself like last night I made dinner and and I was like thirsty and I was like oh I should drink water because I've been really doing a good job of just drinking waters kind of staying away from soda getting away from other snacky kind of drinks. Um.

40:20.40
nathanpile
But there like I knew out in the garages. There was a gingerra and I wouldn't even say Gingerrail is my like my favorite drink but it was out in the garage and so I was like yeah I'll just go out and get a ginger drill So like my own head is working against me all the time. So like I I can.

40:25.95
Kevin Shock
And.

40:33.57
Kevin Shock
Um, you know sure. Yeah, yeah.

40:38.32
nathanpile
Deny myself for something for a little so how do I do it? Yeah I don't do it well ah, but um, but I do think it's a constant like if you're if you really want to work at it then you have to keep doing it like so again this week or today like you know as as my as the.

40:43.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

40:57.52
nathanpile
Thing that's helping me to kind of be more disciplined around what I'm eating and so forth says you're gonna fall off the horse just get yourself pick yourself back up dust yourself off try get so I'm drinking a full thing of water again today you know, kind of a thing but that's ah again, the beauty of who god is.

41:06.16
Kevin Shock
Open.

41:16.10
nathanpile
And god knows that I'm going to fail miserably at this? um and so that's god's love and Forgiveness god's grace that comes into play that god promises to be that's how god is going to interact with me. Um, and so I don't need to feel I don't need to beat myself up I still might but i.

41:35.92
nathanpile
But just because I can't deny myself doesn't mean I can't try again tomorrow to do that and so again, that's the beauty of of this gift that god gives us in god's love in the person of Jesus the Christ god knows that we're that I'm not going to do this. Well.

41:42.71
Kevin Shock
Um.

41:55.83
nathanpile
Um, but that that that if that that if that if in that denial in some way shape or form I've um, hurt god or hurt someone else. Um. Like I and I need to ask for forgiveness I need to be vulnerable as as Christ does in this passage here. You know what was your phrase was he's completely open about it or quite openly he kind of says these things quite openly.

42:29.65
Kevin Shock
And.

42:31.53
nathanpile
That idea of being able to be vulnerable also frees us and being able to see that. Yeah okay I didn't do this Well you know I'm sorry let I'm going to start again tomorrow Um, and and though God gives that to us Sometimes we don't give that to ourselves and we don't give it to other people either. You know that's part of us being human.

42:39.38
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

42:50.45
nathanpile
Hold on to these kinds of things. But so how about you? How do you deny yourself.

42:50.85
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, well I I'm just going to kind of answer the question by reflecting on your reflection. Um.

43:02.89
Kevin Shock
Because ah in my mind what I was thinking about is I mean you gave you gave some pretty clear concrete examples that I think people can relate to you know like um, you know, ah like like physical self-care kind of stuff you know, like like how how your how your mind and your body are working against you. Yeah, you know.

43:15.39
nathanpile
Chair chair.

43:21.48
Kevin Shock
I should drink water but I'm craving this other thing you know, um, and yeah, yeah, even even last night yeah I was I was driving somewhere late and ah and ah leaving the the office and um, you know thought? Well I really.

43:24.72
nathanpile
Um, right? What up the sweet.

43:40.54
Kevin Shock
Like I was tired I was a little thirsty I had water in the car. But I you know, kind of thought. Well I'd really like like a pop or something like that and there's a burger King right next door to the office. So I I went over there and pulled it into the drive through and like 1 of the first things I see is.

43:51.90
nathanpile
Um, there is yeah.

43:59.29
Kevin Shock
Chocolate Oreo milkshake So I was like oh yeah, no, that's definitely what I need Yeah, that was not my that was not my conscious mind speaking that was my Reptilian brain saying eat the milkshake just get the milkshake. Um, but what I was going to say is ah I mean it.

44:07.75
nathanpile
He.

44:18.59
Kevin Shock
It was not the best milkshake I've had but it was it was worth it anyway. Um, just extend that like that way of being to our relationship with other people and think about how like um, there's someone that you that that I need to repair a relationship with.

44:27.73
nathanpile
A.

44:37.98
Kevin Shock
And and how my mind says Yeah, but they were really wrong in what they did or you know or like you know the ways that we like are are it almost feels like we're working against ourselves to talk ourselves out of doing the right thing.

44:50.53
nathanpile
Now.

44:56.50
Kevin Shock
Because doing the right thing is often the harder thing and and so like I think about you know relationships that need to be repaired. Oh you know? Um, you know my my neighbor just you know had surgery and so I really I should really make some food and take it over to them. Ah, well you know I'm busy today I'm busy tomorrow you know I you know I mean there are all these kinds of things that like will I mean you know on on a good day. We might go ahead and do those things. Um, but it's very easy if we are worn out and world weary. Just say now I'm I'm going to do what feels comfortable to me and and I think that that's where the denying myself comes in um is like it's okay to be comfortable. It's certainly ah but again I think.

45:40.97
nathanpile
Um e.

45:50.20
Kevin Shock
We Kind of alluded earlier. There are different forms of Comfort. There are different ways to be comfortable. Um that there's the there's the being comfortable that like that involves isolating yourself just doing what you want to do doing what feels right? What seems right? um. Or at least you know for the moment and then there's comfortable of being like secure in your identity and in your place in the community. Um, and and ah and doing something that that involves human connection that really gives fulfillment ah to you and to the other person.

46:15.60
nathanpile
Me.

46:27.87
Kevin Shock
Or the group the group together. Um, so I think you know I think denying how how I deny myself and again like you said Nathan I'm I'm not really good at it I feel like I'm maybe a little bit better at it than I used to be just because I've had a lot of time to well. Apply those guide that guide that we were talking about earlier. You know the am am I denying myself am I taking up my cross am I following Jesus you know those kind of things those kind of questions. Ah I I'm not great at it. But I also.

46:54.82
nathanpile
My me.

47:03.98
Kevin Shock
Know that just sometimes it is the better thing for me to stop that circular thinking that allows me to to just persist in my own will and in my own way and to move into the life that Jesus is inviting me into.

47:14.48
nathanpile
Um.

47:22.92
Kevin Shock
And that is a life of human connection. Ah holy good news work. Um, forgiveness reconciliation. Ah. It's it's not an easy way to live but it is a it is ah it is a whole wholesome way to live ah, and yeah and and like you said earlier ah love involves. Some form small or great of self-sacrifice. Love love means at its core that you are regarding someone else more highly than you're regarding yourself to to borrow a phrase from Paul even if it's as small as um.

48:01.96
nathanpile
Yeah.

48:12.32
nathanpile
Are.

48:17.65
Kevin Shock
My daughter will be happy if I'm not late in picking her up. Yeah, even if that you know I don't want to I don't want to get off this couch right now. But if I don't leave now I'm going to be late and I know that that my daughter will be happier if I'm not late. So.

48:19.74
nathanpile
Right? sure.

48:36.93
Kevin Shock
That's just a small thing. There are much greater things all the the whole the whole way up to Jesus giving himself on the cross. Yeah yeah, so that's what I think of as far as denying self.

48:37.10
nathanpile
Much bigger, much much bigger. Yeah.

48:56.55
nathanpile
Well um, as we wrap up here. There's some additional texts also to kind of ah look at we have genesis the seventeenth chapter verses 1 through 7 15 and verses 15 and sixteen as well.

48:58.53
Kevin Shock
Me.

49:11.45
nathanpile
Here. God is blessing Abraham and Sarah for um, living yeah go ahead. What are you saying that they will have many descendants.

49:18.82
Kevin Shock
Tell Well I was gonna say telling them that they're that they will have descendants as numerous as the sand. Yeah, yeah, right.

49:29.10
nathanpile
Because of their faithfulness ah psalm Twenty Two Ah Twenty verses 23 through 31 all of the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord. So this this piece again of ah of turning to god looking at. What god is doing and and following in that way and romans the fourth chapter verses 13 through 25 here the promise of those who share Abraham's faith so to to. Again, reflecting the faithfulness of of Abraham is what Paul is advocating to the people of rome as he writes here the fourth chapter Kevin as always thank you for sharing. Um.

50:25.68
nathanpile
Your thoughts here around these 3 questions on this passage. It's always it always helps my faith to to tend and and chat together on a piece of scripture. So thanks for.

50:39.71
Kevin Shock
No, no, thank you.

50:42.59
nathanpile
Prepared me for another week. Um, for you listening if you would like to share thoughts with Kevin and I we'd be happy to hear those you can do that via our Gmail at 10 to bible podcast at gmail.com

51:01.52
nathanpile
Um, we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

51:06.15
Kevin Shock
Peace and peace.