Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
Where do you find wisdom and strength in the cross of Jesus?
Additional texts:
Exodus 20:1-17
Psalm 19
John 2:13-22 The cleansing of the temple
Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
Where do you find wisdom and strength in the cross of Jesus?
Additional texts:
Exodus 20:1-17
Psalm 19
John 2:13-22 The cleansing of the temple
00:01.51
Kevin Shock
Hey, everyone I have nothing to say Nathan was doing a countdown as we were about to start recording and I got so engrossed in what Nathan was doing that I completely blanked on what I was going to say so welcome. It's a good time for us to open scripture and talk to one another and hopefully you'll have the opportunity to talk to other people as well about this reading so today we are looking at ah first corinthians chapter one. Versus 18 through 25 I think Nathan we've been kind of on a first corinthians run I feel like we've been I don't know if we've been talking about first corinthians a lot or I've just been thinking about first corinthians a lot. But um, anyway first corinthians.
00:53.10
nathanpile
Well and you and I are in 2 different places and um locations in the state of Pennsylvania so occasionally we see each other but not all the time but I also have been doing um a significant um ah time spending some time with Paul but for. Um, another thing that we just had here at camp and so I too feel like ah Paul I've been I've been working with Paul a lot recently and I know we've read um corinthians a couple of times here together in this but with the other study that we were that I was doing um. I have I've had a heavy dose of Paul that's not bad. It's not bad, not bad, but.
01:28.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, it's not no, not a bad thing at all. No ah Paul can be a lot to unpack. But when you unpack and sometimes you get really good stuff. So anyway first corinthians chapter one versus 18 through 25 ah Nathan and I are going to be using the common english bible translation.
01:32.56
nathanpile
Yes, Nope yep.
01:46.51
Kevin Shock
Um, you can use that translation. Ah, it's available on biblegateway.com or the biblegateway app or use. Whatever translation is helpful for you and our 3 questions today. What word phrase or image speaks to you in this text. Toward what is god calling you in this text and where do you find wisdom and strength in the cross of Jesus.
02:13.24
nathanpile
Um, well we are in lent. So we're walking our way to the cross. So good question. A disclaimer about who we are. We are men married to women in financially stable Households white.
02:17.40
Kevin Shock
We are.
02:29.12
nathanpile
In our late 40 s college and seminary educated we work in the lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania all of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture. Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and one another so we want to know what you hear and think from your experience as you engage scripture. So a reminder you can. Share that with us via email or um, ah on Facebook the reading from first corinthians the first chapter the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are being destroyed. But it is the power of god for those of us who are being saved. It is written in scripture I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and I will reject the intelligence of the intellect intelligent I will reject the intelligence. Of the intelligent where are the wise where are the legal experts where are today's debaters hasn't god made the wisdom of the world foolish in god's wisdom.
04:02.19
nathanpile
He determined that the world wouldn't come to know him through its wisdom instead. God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of preaching jews asked for signs and Greeks look for wisdom. But we preach Christ crucified which is a scandal to jews and foolishness to gentiles. But to those who are called both Jews and Greeks Christ is god's power and god's wisdom. This is because the foolishness of god is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of god is stronger than human strength if you are meeting with a group you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Kevin what word phrase or image strikes you in this ah translation of this text.
05:08.74
Kevin Shock
Um, the end of verse 20 where are today's debaters hasn't god made the wisdom of the world foolish that really, ah, just. Kind of it's ringing in my head I think it was already ringing in my head today that kind that that notion that idea. Um and so I really heard it and latched onto it when you were reading it. The.
05:46.20
Kevin Shock
I just there we human beings so much want to debate everything everything everything and i. I get frustrated because I also want to debate everything and sometimes I'm a person who gets frustrated because I want to I want to change the terms on which we debate. Um I think that a lot of debates that happen in the world are. Ah, missing the miss the Mark um, right? and right now on social media this is of course we record these podcasts ahead of time so this will be old news by the time people listen to this but we're recording this on the day after the super bowl and ah. I finally just had to close my Facebook tab on my computer because I was so sick of seeing people go back and forth about the he gets us commercial from the Super Bowl ah and you know the whole like I can't.
06:59.80
Kevin Shock
I don't know how many how many Facebook friends I saw change their tune when you know oh this is such a great message whenever they found out who the funders of the message were and then suddenly the message became worthless. Ah it.
07:13.48
nathanpile
A a.
07:15.94
Kevin Shock
Because they didn't agree with the politics of the people who are funding the message and and I just saw um people people who I generally agree with and not actually this this is kind of not Facebook friends but something that I saw a couple of Facebook friends share. A blog post that I then read that I will never get that 2 minutes back um where honestly like the person who wrote the blog post is someone who writes blog posts so you know like they do this for a living and ah everything they wrote in the post I like.
07:45.27
nathanpile
Sure.
07:52.10
Kevin Shock
At my core agreed with you know, like like politically speaking and and theologically speaking but also the argument was just not a strong argument because it was it kind of let in with this whole this is a bait and switch. You know that.
07:56.45
nathanpile
Um.
08:11.44
Kevin Shock
People are this. This is a message that's intended to draw people in to an inclusive Jesus and then and then they find out that you know the people who are funding the message aren't inclusive. Well, it's not a bait and switch in my mind because. It's not advocating 1 kind of church or anything like that. It's advocating Jesus so you know whether I agree with the politics of of that group or not I think is irrelevant because I think we human beings.
08:34.79
nathanpile
Um.
08:46.54
Kevin Shock
Do So we get so worked up about identity politics that we are not even able to see good news Sometimes whenever it is delivered and and and I'm not saying that to say that the he gets us campaign is ah is a helpful campaign I'm not.
09:05.24
Kevin Shock
I'm I'm not judging the campaign itself. But but I do think that we get so wrapped up in making ourselves look smarter or better or or more righteous and.
09:05.74
nathanpile
Sure.
09:23.58
Kevin Shock
I don't think 1 group corners of the market on that over any other group of of christians um that we we just we throw all kinds of veils and barriers on top of the gospel message because we can't get away from just.
09:25.91
nathanpile
Mirror.
09:42.80
Kevin Shock
Fighting with each other and Paul's notion here that you know where where are the whys where are the legal experts where are today's debaters I mean you know he kind of it's kind of like bring bring them on you know like Paul's willing to verbally spar with anybody here because.
09:45.17
nathanpile
Um.
10:02.15
Kevin Shock
Paul has Paul has the message. You know the core of the message and that's what he's relying on. Um the wisdom of the world in the cross is made foolish. And that's just how I feel sometimes is that I watch people debating online and I think this is just sheer foolishness. We are wasting so much time and energy having this discussion instead of just proclaiming Christ crucified and the power of god that is made known in that. So. Anyway, that is what sticks with me today and that was a much longer answer than I wanted to give but there it is.
10:43.27
nathanpile
No, but I think it was a good a good um, a good answer for me I'm I'm just a a verse on' just the next verse after after you there um, but ah, but I do I would be lying if I wouldn't say that. That this translation where today's where are today's debaters that kind of got my ears perked up I'll be honest because that's not the way I'm used to hearing this passage. Um, and so that that phrase caught my attention. Um, but it was I think the the exclamation point for me came in in verse 21 where in god's wisdom god determined that the the world we wouldn't come to know him through our wisdom our wisdom and so um. Which struck me that that piece of god already knows that in our and and and everything that you said is it probably falls into this. Um, but everything god already knows that in our own humanness.
11:55.20
nathanpile
Um, and our striving for wisdom our desire for me first is and that that though I might encounter and I might grow in my own personal wisdom as I get older.
12:04.66
Kevin Shock
Hey hey.
12:14.71
nathanpile
And and live my life. Um, the me First the um, the secular culture of more more more and so forth. Um, like my wisdom is going to be tainted. My wisdom is is not going to be that I that I fully get a loving and gracious God Um, who shows up in a cross and so um and again, my. Especially as an American Christian or American Lutheran Christian Um, my fluency Also Yes I've been blessed to be able to go to college and to graduate school. Um and have done lots of learning and some might call that wisdom. But my affluency and my selfishness also are going to undercut that Wisdom. So So I just found it I found it particularly um, insightful as as I read it this time Through. Um.
13:13.21
Kevin Shock
E.
13:27.80
nathanpile
That God already has determined that God knows we're not going to be able to think our way argue our way. Um, ah out of. Out of this situation or or that we're not going to be Able. We're not going to be able to fully comprehend who God is we're we're going to ask that question our whole lives who is God Um, as young kids as a seminary student as a pastor today you know I've asked that question and in. In my own devotional life in conversation and bible study with others and I will imagine that I will continue to ask that because we're trying to know. Um, we're trying to know the divine which is bigger than our our heads can ever imagine it and. And even though there's been times in my own. Um I guess in my own pride you know are my own. Um my own understanding that I've thought well I know I know more now about God than I did when I was younger, but that's. That's still a small fragment of the divine. Um, and so I'm still learning more about the divine and so you know I can be um, ah be arrogant or or prideful that I know more than I did before but it's still just a.
14:42.30
Kevin Shock
Oh.
14:58.74
nathanpile
Small piece of all that god is um and and recognizing that that as you know as Paul is is writing to the people of corinth here. Um reminding them as well. That. That if we get too too arrogant too prideful. Well, it's not if we get too. It's it's that we're already prideful. We're already arrogant. We're already focused on the me. Um, that those those pieces are going to take away from from my. My understanding fully god and god's way for us. Um, you know god being who god is um and your your example, what was a ah perfect one of that is that we're we're we're more inclined to tear each other down as opposed to say.
15:57.14
nathanpile
Right's a couple of people have a couple of million dollars and they want to put a commercial out there about Jesus? No I saw the commercial there's there's nothing that they're really that they've put out there that like it. It's good. News. This is who Jesus is. And they've done it in a little video and and better than better than watching another dorito commercial. so so I don't have the millions of dollars to buy the commercial slot. But if somebody else wants to do it and put a and it and it not be completely heretical. It was. It wasn't heretical. So.
16:19.75
Kevin Shock
Ah, well or I.
16:31.20
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and that's in I mean I I generally agree with that I All you know I I understand this critique about the campaign and.
16:32.57
nathanpile
Um, you know, let him tell the story of Jesus like okay.
16:45.31
Kevin Shock
And I agree with a lot of the critique about the campaign. You know if you can if you can spend $100000000 which I think it was the price I got quoted on a commercial during the super bowl then you can spend $100000000 ah doing things that will like be meaningful to people who are in need yes, ah that I that write right.
16:51.34
nathanpile
Um.
17:05.35
Kevin Shock
Yes I don't disagree with that. Um, and yeah yeah I understand that and and I will I will be the well not the last person I I'll just say this I recognize.
17:05.83
nathanpile
Sure sure yeah could they have used it in a better way. Absolutely yeah in my opinion in my opinion right.
17:24.44
Kevin Shock
The spiritual trauma that the church has unleashed on people who have been on the margins or outside the generally accepted social core of people in our society. Especially in past generations. Um, but continuing into ours. Um, there are people all the time who I know and agree with who preach a similar kind of message.
18:01.96
Kevin Shock
It's just they don't spend $100000000 to preach that message during the super bowl um like that like the message itself. The message itself is ah is a pretty orthodox incarnational message that means it's it's. It's a message that people throughout the history of the church would be pretty much in line with and it's a message that speaks to the fact that god came and dwelt among us in flesh and blood and so the again the message itself.
18:35.10
nathanpile
Are.
18:38.64
Kevin Shock
Is something that I I would preach I have preached I've heard other people I know preach it and it has been funded by people whose politics have been harmful and who have who have unleashed some kind of spiritual. Or human trauma on other people I recognize that my my thought is if that commercial gets somebody to consider walking into a church where they might find welcome. And that Jesus preached and lived out then that's a good thing and I and I think from that commercial someone might find themselves just as easily ah inclined to walk into a an affirming. Um.
19:23.41
nathanpile
Um.
19:37.50
Kevin Shock
Open faith Christian Faith community as they would be to walk into a ah ah church where they're going to hear that they are sinful or wrong or evil.
19:52.28
Kevin Shock
Both of those congregations exist and I don't think the commercial lifted one up over the other. Um, but yeah so I yeah now I'm now I'm finding myself getting into the debate which I don't like I don't I'm not I I'm getting angry with myself now. Um.
19:54.97
nathanpile
Um.
20:11.88
Kevin Shock
So you can spend $100000000 doing other things aside from buying the super bowl commercial. You can also spend time proclaiming Christ crucified instead of engaging in online debates. So that's yeah anyway, but.
20:30.74
nathanpile
Well, but I think that again I appreciate that you bringing this this scenario up I'm sorry that it that it um brings up ah Anxiousness and in you to do that. Ah because I do think that there's a part of like.
20:42.16
Kevin Shock
Well.
20:48.90
nathanpile
Ah, this goes back to judgment and we've talked about that before in on this podcast. But that idea that that I know what's right? and then I judge someone else and we might consider that wisdom like I'm making that you know I'm say and and so like I.
20:58.96
Kevin Shock
A.
21:08.62
nathanpile
I've i' I'm I'm an advocate for the only person that I can control is me I can't control whoever it is that just spent whatever they spent I can't imagine was a $100000000 for for the commercial spot. But whatever. Yeah, so um, but.
21:16.33
Kevin Shock
Um, sure.
21:23.30
Kevin Shock
Um, that that was the number I heard quoted. Yeah yeah.
21:27.32
nathanpile
Anyway, like whatever like whatever it is. It's millions of dollars of which I don't have ah but ah, you know they they that that's their choice I guess of how they've done this and. My judgment or someone else's judgment about them. Um, and especially putting it into my own. Well I think I know Jesus is way better than they do I they could have done this better like I think that's our that's our own selfish. Sinful wisdom. That gee that god here is pointing out in Paul telling us. Yep, they're just not going to get me and and I think it's true. we're we're we're not going to get god um, and and.
22:15.96
nathanpile
And I say that today knowing that tomorrow morning when a when I wake up I'm probably going to say something that's not humble and be arrogant and think my wisdom is better than somebody else's at that moment in time and and and so um.
22:26.28
Kevin Shock
Absolutely yeah.
22:34.15
nathanpile
And that that I'm going to judge them for because I think I'm wiser than they are ah you know god already understands our human condition here and and Paul is telling us that god has like bring it on god's like come on bring it on I I'll debate. You? um. And that's that's you know I think all of us have to recognize when we when when we look down on the the next person we're in the same boat. We may not feel like it. We may be able to justify our our actions over somebody else's but.
22:54.52
Kevin Shock
Um.
23:13.13
nathanpile
I Think we're in the same boat and maybe we're standing on the seat and there in the floor I don't you know that's why we feel we're taller I don't know but like we're we're so we're in the same boat. So um, yeah, so I don't I don't mean to but to belabor it I just it. It feels like a ah.
23:18.31
Kevin Shock
Um.
23:33.13
nathanpile
A an example that this passage um rings true for helps me to it helps me to see that this passage I guess live down.
23:40.48
Kevin Shock
And I'm glad that you bring that up. Um, just because ah.
23:55.54
Kevin Shock
Ah, it's so easy for us to get into a state of self-righteousness and um and you know I.
23:57.92
nathanpile
Yeah.
24:06.40
nathanpile
Ah, especially in the state of decline of the church like we we want to point we want to point at someplace else. We want to point we want to point our point out our righteousness. We want to show but like that and again I don't think that does us.
24:07.56
Kevin Shock
Right? right? Yeah right right.
24:21.63
nathanpile
We're not living in the way.
24:25.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, I just I I had to look up another verse here quickly from Matthew from Jesus' ' sermon on the mountain Matthew 5 um, you know I just I'm guilty of it. You're guilty of it people I agree with are guilty of it. And people I disagree with are guilty of it to try to you know say this this is this is what god wants and and I will I will say that I believe that god is throughout history. Ah on the side of the oppressed I I do believe that like that's part of my that's a. Ah, foundational statement of my theology. Um, we get so worked up about. Um when I say we I think people who ah politically and theologically I agree with we sometimes get so worked up about. Um, pointing that out to other people that we lose sight of the fact that we are not doing a good job of exhibiting the love that Jesus has commanded us and called us into um I just you know as we're talking about this i. It was Matthew five is what popped to mind you have heard it that it was said you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say do you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be children of your father in heaven for he makes his son rise on the evil and on the good.
25:55.44
Kevin Shock
And sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous Um, just a simple word there I'm reading that from a place of privilege. Um I would I would never ah for people who are being persecuted I would never pastorally tell them. That they need to love their enemies and pray for the ones who are persecuting them but I'm current I'm not being persecuted and so this speaks to me and um, a lot of people I've seen debating this online are debating it from a place of Privilege. So and I recognize that and I will say again.
26:18.40
nathanpile
Name.
26:31.62
Kevin Shock
That spiritual trauma exists people have been harmed by the church and I think that sometimes people like me waste time debating stuff and not just proclaiming Christ crucified and risen.
26:47.28
nathanpile
E.
26:49.39
Kevin Shock
I think all of those things can be true at the same time anyway, thanks for ah I think maybe I got up on a soapbox there a little bit so let's yeah, let's do that all right from first corinthians chapter one.
26:59.21
nathanpile
No, it's good. Why we do a second time.
27:06.99
Kevin Shock
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are being destroyed but it is the power of god for those of us who are being saved. It is written in scripture I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and I will reject the intelligence of the intelligent where are the wise where are the legal experts where are today's debaters hasn't god made the wisdom of the world foolish in god's wisdom. He determined that the world wouldn't come to know him through its wisdom instead. God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of preaching jews asked for signs and Greeks look for wisdom but we preach Christ crucified. Which is a scandal to jews and foolishness to gentiles. But to those who are called both Jews and Greeks Christ is god's power and god's wisdom. This is because the foolishness of god is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of god is stronger than human strength. Nathan toward what is god calling you in this text.
28:09.78
nathanpile
Um I think it's okay to be a fool for God like um, we don't have to have it all sorted out. We don't have to um.
28:27.38
nathanpile
You know I can remember back in seminary I don't I can remember who the professor was but I can't remember the class because I took a couple of classes from this professor. Um, but Dr Christensen was what would have been something around history theological history kind of a thing. And we were talking about. Um, how do you know? you're saved. How do you know it was what and I don't even know if it was about um salvation itself or some piece of it but I kept pressing the the part that I remember of it is I kept pressing him I was like well how do we know. how do I know that how do I know that that that I'm okay um and and his he finally just you know he he tried to answer a couple of times and and and finally you know when I pressed him the last time he just kind of said know that if you're worried about it. Nathan. You're probably okay and and then and so I'm like sitting back there like that's a terrible answer like that's not an answer to my question but like it's a reminder to me that I don't need to have the the right answer.
29:32.93
Kevin Shock
Ah.
29:42.51
nathanpile
Around Whatever this whatever it was exactly I was trying to so nail down on of salvation was that that if that if I was if I was concerned about it I had knowledge of it of of sin and and recognizing that it's a part of my life but that I didn't need to worry. About being in because it was you know and that part has always made sense to me that I was always in you know you're in because of who God is not because of the action that you do um but it was like how does how does a person house person Certain How do you really help them understand that Well like again I think what christiansen. He didn't say it to me in that way but like sometimes it's okay to to not know it all. Um God's gonna love us and God's gonna give us.. It gives us a gift of faithful of of being faithful. Um.
30:26.10
Kevin Shock
A.
30:37.10
nathanpile
Both in the example of Christ but also gives us the gift of the holy spirit so that we might have faith um like and it's okay to be a complete fool for god um I you know I make a lot of apology sometimes when I preach about being a church nerd or ah, a you know Pastor nerd because i'll. I'll share something in Greek in the sermon or something about the history. That's really obscure of the church because I think it helps you to make a point in the sermon. Um, but I probably ought to just apologize for being a fool for Christ like because I believe I'm in like that that's ah that that's where I'm at. You know and and in our world that would seem you know here in this passage Paul um says that that can feel foolish to the secular to the secular age. Whatever a secular age or in in Paul's time two thousand years ago in my secular age today. Um. We can feel like as christians that we are on the outside and people can look at you can feel people look at us and think no, they're what a fool who would believe such a old story. Um, but there's now. Don't need to go into all of my justifications of why I believe what? I believe but in the giant universe. There's one planet that has life on it right? right? now there might be more maybe one day we'll find it. Yeah that we know of but still like of all of the planets that we that we do know of There's a lot of them.
31:59.93
Kevin Shock
That that we know of yeah, right? but.
32:09.41
nathanpile
None of them can can hold life and so why wouldn't it make you know my and my my biology my biologist and me like we don't need to be the only planet to me to believe that God exists but but there's the miracle of of everything that happens on this planet So that.
32:21.54
Kevin Shock
A a.
32:27.31
nathanpile
Life is sustained not just my life but life for the tiny little insect outside my window. Um, and for me inside the inside this building and so there's ah you know there's a lot that has that makes up life in the world and and so and. And the gift of love and what it does for us and the gift of community and what it does for us all of those things to me have the imprint of the creator on them. Um, and because of that ah it allows me to be.
33:03.40
nathanpile
No I should feel like I don't need to know everything about God or the bible or faith I don't need to spend a huge amount of time um, continuing to ah understand the um. The fine details of theology. At this point I have enough of ah of a lens that helps me to see God in the world. Um, and that's probably why I didn't go on and get my Ph D was because I felt like it was I was I felt more called to being engaged with God's people where God's people were At. I had enough of a lens to be able to talk about or to be a fool for God that I didn't need to have more detail to be able to you know there was a lot of time in college being a biologist I spent a lot of time digging into the why of the science and Understanding. You know.
33:44.49
Kevin Shock
E.
33:59.68
nathanpile
The the the environmental area around me the ecology of the of the land and the plants and the and the animals and how they interact and and and behavior of animal. You know I had took lots and lots of classes on all of those pieces but like as I got towards the end of my time at seminary. Didn't feel like I needed to go any farther in my in my academic you know study to go on and get something else. Another degree I thought about it I looked into it and explored those options but when it really came down to it I was like you know what I would rather. Tell this story now rather than still be in school for another four or six years um you know, kind of getting more wisdom so that I can teach better so yeah so I think this idea of of being a fool. Um.
34:40.33
Kevin Shock
A a.
34:55.94
nathanpile
For myself for like I I can I can feel like a fool for God I don't have to have it all ironed out I don't have to be and so I think part of this passage tells me that or reminds me of that. Um that I don't have to have. God figured out to trust that God loves me.
35:16.85
Kevin Shock
A a.
35:24.50
nathanpile
So and again I say that from a place of privilege that I've had all of the education that I have had and and the experiences that I've had to be able to to be where I'm at so you know some would say well you're not complete full. You spent you know 8 years in school trying to learn more and that's true, but um.
35:41.91
Kevin Shock
Someone say you're more of a full for spending that long in school but ah and.
35:43.52
nathanpile
Well, that's true. It's that's true, having spent all of the money that I spent to do it and I could have just you know, read the bible and probably read the bible and read the bible and talked about it in community and talked about it in community and.
35:53.41
Kevin Shock
Well. Yeah, but yeah, sure of course there is I think I feel like we're given a lot of disclaimers I'm given a lot of disclaimers on this episode but that's I mean there are certainly people who are called to that academic pursuit and.
35:58.98
nathanpile
Picked up those pieces. There would be there would be knowledge to that.
36:14.68
nathanpile
Ah, absolutely I Loved my professors. Don't take you know my it was just wasn't for me.
36:16.26
Kevin Shock
And and they have and they have particular callings in the church and they add to the gospel proclamation that's happening in the church I know plenty of people who who are in that boat. Um, and ah and and I myself. Um.
36:24.48
nathanpile
Ah, yeah, absolutely.
36:35.92
Kevin Shock
Although there were probably some foolish things about me going to seminary I I greatly value the education I got there and and and the education there helped to form me into a better pastor and preacher. Um and I've learned a lot since then too. So.
36:47.19
nathanpile
E.
36:53.58
nathanpile
Sure.
36:55.33
Kevin Shock
Ah, yeah, yeah, your interaction with Dr Christiansen reminds me of Dr Wengert's go to response ah in in reformation history class and that was why do you ask. That question. There were so many times that people would ask a question in class and he would just pause and everyone knew it was coming. Why do you ask that question and it became so ubiquitous that someone at some point actually made a.
37:16.33
nathanpile
Ah, what's behind the question.
37:22.99
nathanpile
Yeah.
37:31.87
Kevin Shock
Bumper sticker for him to put on his his Suv that said, why do you ask that question. Ah, but um, um yeah I I feel like that's you know that's that's a really.
37:34.35
nathanpile
Ah, ah.
37:48.20
Kevin Shock
That's a really smart response when you're when your concern is getting to the core of the good news. Um the core of the Gospel I just you know hearing hearing your interaction with Dr Christiansen I was you know. The hypothetical situation of someone kind of accosting me on the street and you know do you know where you're going when you die and just Dr Weinger's response. Why do you ask that question but I feel like that would be a great response. Um, a response that hopefully would lead into. Ah.
38:11.50
nathanpile
Ah.
38:20.59
nathanpile
Ah conversation. Yeah.
38:22.72
Kevin Shock
You know some real some real basic conversation about what actually is good news and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I Um I had a response and then I just.
38:26.63
nathanpile
Now. How about you? My friend towards what is God calling you in this passage.
38:42.47
Kevin Shock
Got listening to you and was interested in what you were saying that I don't know if I don't know if I can remember my response. Um, maybe that's okay, ah yeah I I Really can't remember if I'm being honest with you I but I should say something. Um, but yeah, no I I think throughout time. Um as I've had more practice at being in the call I'm in and um and had more.
39:01.86
nathanpile
It's okay, if you don't remember it. It's all right.
39:18.62
Kevin Shock
Experience being a follower of Jesus a poor one at that you know at that in that regard. Um I really see the value of learning to.
39:36.60
Kevin Shock
Preach the message of the gospel in plain terms both for myself and for the sake of other people. Um I like I'm versed in all of the churchy language I'm really well versed in it. Um. Probably not as well versed as some other people but you know if if I wanted to give a 45 minute exposition on you know the ah the the power of the crucifixion and the um and and what exactly happens in the crucifixion and things like that I could do that? Um, like I feel pretty confident that I could do that. But I don't think that a 45 minute exposition about what? ah actually happens in the crucifixion is going to um, get anyone more curious about the good news of Jesus Christ I could be wrong.
40:23.87
nathanpile
Now.
40:29.80
Kevin Shock
I It might it might get some people more curious I you know it might raise interest but curiosity I don't know that it and it would inspire curiosity. Um I think you know the things that are important to me um, are that.
40:37.80
nathanpile
No.
40:49.20
Kevin Shock
You know Jesus Jesus lives for us a better way gives to us a better way and um and the spirit enables us to live into a better way than what we currently see.
41:08.59
nathanpile
Now.
41:08.81
Kevin Shock
In this world and there's just there's something I was talking about this with someone else earlier today. There's something compelling to me about that notion. Um, and and I think I think in a world where we see so much injustice in and. Unrighteousness. There's something compelling about knowing that we don't have to be resigned to this being to this world being the way things are there's there's more and and not more in the age to come not more when we die and go to heaven and i. But that term in quotes ah but more for us right now because we have been given a way of love and a way that um, that. Calls out to everyone who is seeking and hurting and and and that is that way is it's easy for me to see how Paul would name that way as being foolishness to the people who have power. And wealth and privilege and status in this world. It's just you know to let yourself be nailed to a cross is dumb. It's the it's the the opposite of the definition of success you failed.
42:39.28
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.
42:42.90
Kevin Shock
And it's just not because because of because I have received good news I don't see it that way at all. So anyway, yeah.
42:57.17
nathanpile
Well I want to make comment about your stuff but it's going to bleed into my so third answer. So I I say we do let's do the third one and then we can we can play in and around love a little bit.
43:03.70
Kevin Shock
Let's do the third time that because I I I stopped I I stopped the next sentence that was coming out of my mouth because it was an answer to the third question I realized so ah.
43:16.29
nathanpile
Ah, so all right? a third time through first corinthians' first chapter the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are being destroyed but it is the power of god for those of us who are being saved. Is written in scripture I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and I will reject the intelligence of the intelligent where are the wise where are the legal experts where are today's debaters hasn't god made the wisdom of the world foolish. In god's wisdom. He determined that the world wouldn't come to know him through its wisdom instead. God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of preaching jews ask for signs and Greeks. Look for wisdom but we preach Christ crucified which is a scandal to jews and foolishness to gentiles. But to those who are called both jews and Greek Christ is god's power and god's wisdom. This is because the foolishness of god is wiser than human wisdom and the weakness of god is stronger than human strength right? Kevin where do you find wisdom and strength in the cross of Jesus.
44:49.25
Kevin Shock
Um, um, wisdom wisdom I don't I don't know how to comment on right off the bat but strength I think I I have heard critique criticism of the. Christian way of life and especially an an inclusive welcoming loving Christian way of life that um, it's that it is weak. Oh you just love everybody. You know that kind of thing. Um. That you know if if you love everyone. You can't hold them accountable for things or you can't you know or you can't point out where they're where they're going down a wrong pathway or making wrong choices. You know that that that but when I hear people say that. Goodness. It makes me think that they don't understand what real love actually is um, love is so hard. Love is so difficult. Um.
45:42.52
nathanpile
E.
45:57.11
Kevin Shock
Thinking about my relationship with my spouse. My friends, my family sometimes the hardest thing in the world is for me to swallow my pride and admit that I was wrong. Um, and from the cross we see Jesus exhibiting.
46:16.12
Kevin Shock
Strongest wisest version of love that there ever could be in my mind. Ah you know, um for him for him to promise a criminal who is seeking him that. Today you'll be with me in paradise for him to pray from the cross father forgive them for they do not know what they're doing you. You can't tell me that that's weak i.
46:48.68
nathanpile
Yeah.
46:50.97
Kevin Shock
Like I can't be convinced that that's weak. Um I think I think that this world constantly people in this world constantly make the choice that if they that.
47:07.43
Kevin Shock
They live in. We live into a ah might makes right mentality that you know we we can show someone who's boss if we just bomb the heck out of them. Um, which you know in short term we might. But.
47:11.86
nathanpile
Um.
47:24.70
Kevin Shock
Long term. It's not going to get us anywhere and long term. It's going to cause more problems than it solves. Um I mean I think we have evidence for that in our history. Ah, but I have like I have never done anything.
47:44.27
Kevin Shock
More difficult in my life than asked for forgiveness or given forgiveness or have in Paul's words looked to the needs of others before I look to myself. And that is all is all of that is what's happening on the cross. Well not the asking for forgiveness but but the other stuff. Um the the not taking advantage of of the power that I've been given. Um. You know that's what that's what's happening on the cross and I cannot I cannot imagine any any stronger force in this world or in any world than that it it takes so much strength to to really love someone.
48:39.53
nathanpile
E.
48:40.46
Kevin Shock
Selflessly and it takes so much wisdom to recognize that love is the way to win someone over that rather than violence or might. Or debating or whatever it might be I I just see so much strength and wisdom in the cross of Christ and and I'm and I'm grateful for it. What about you? Nathan.
49:17.13
nathanpile
I was going to say amen because um, ah ah my my reflection is is is the same as yours again I would not have used the same eloquent words. Um, but I think as as I as I read the question to you.
49:19.61
Kevin Shock
Um, okay.
49:28.51
Kevin Shock
Stop.
49:33.83
nathanpile
The word that came across um and and you've kind of summarized it nicely. But there that word of compassion of the compassion of Christ being able to be vulnerable.
49:50.70
nathanpile
Because of God's love for us and and and and you kind of articulated all of that piece of of if we're really going to love somebody else. The best examples I have in my life. Um of people who who have loved. Were able to put aside their own anger and frustration when I would do things that easily could cause them to um to put me in my place.
50:25.63
Kevin Shock
A a.
50:28.29
nathanpile
And so that image of Jesus on the cross and looking out over that crowd that is standing and gawking being entertained by someone else dying. Maybe not everyone's being entertained but the the reality television effect of. But we gotta at least see what happens to them. You know, kind of a thing. It's the gawking alongside of a accident along the road. We all so hit the brakes and slow down so that we can see what happened? Um, so it it becomes maybe maybe entertainment is too callous a word but it it becomes something that we want to.
50:46.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.
50:53.30
Kevin Shock
He.
51:05.28
nathanpile
We want to watch and see Jesus seeing those looks could have easily have lashed out and said you're all dead. You know the the son of god could have if if was truly a human being.
51:16.52
Kevin Shock
Um, right right.
51:22.10
nathanpile
Yeah, like the better side of me would have just been angry and lashed out in some way that would have but that's not who God That's not who this God is that is the God of Love God Sees that and says forgive them I I know who they are. And they're not you know I'm going to forgive them of this because I know know who they are and so that idea of um of the the strength of being able to be compassionate um because it is all of the things at our secular age.
51:47.10
Kevin Shock
A.
52:00.90
nathanpile
Doesn't value. You know, um, we have people that are writing trying to make us understand and value vulnerability and authenticity and and love and and these things that are um, that have their that can have their being in us. But. The over or the over large majority of us that live as a part of our societies. Um, don't like to and to to encounter that or to be to put so make ourselves vulnerable. You know we're able we're willing to be compassionate. But probably compassionate to the people who are like us and that we get along with and not so much compassionate with the person that's not like us and and here god is saying all means all um, you know everybody gets this love Um Jew and Greek you know.
52:45.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:58.00
nathanpile
Ah, Roman Soldier jewish leader um everybody's everybody's loved um and so the the um, the wisdom and strength of the cross shows us this thing that that our society. Not just in our age but in every age has seen is seen as weak but is as you say um as you as you were articulating love is the way to bring others around and that takes a tremendous patience and time and.
53:29.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah.
53:35.16
nathanpile
And God is willing to do that for us to say um, forgive them and ah and send the Holy spirit.
53:36.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah.
53:43.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and I think what you name there is vital to it and another reason that love as we see true. Love holy love is we see Jesus living it out and. Dying it out I don't know that that's a term but I mean we see it as much in his death as we do his life. Ah, and there are theologians that talk eloquently about that. Um, ah Henry now and has this section of his book life of the beloved where he talks about um.
54:07.86
nathanpile
Yep.
54:19.69
Kevin Shock
Have more to offer people in death than we do in life and it like I don't think I'll ever figure out what he means exactly by that. But but there's something in my core that really gets it. Um anyway, love is transformative love is not acceptance. Love and or love is not equal to acceptance. Love is not equal to tolerance. Love true love is transformative and true. Love is humble. True love does not say. I'm going to show you the right way to live true love is going to be self sacrificial and let it become evident to the recipient of the love what the right way to live is I think that I think that we all. Every single one of us. even even christians who um proclaim their own inclusivity and kind of universal nature of salvation and things like that every single one of us gets hung up. On who is worthy and who is not worthy to receive the love of Jesus we might not articulate it that way but we live it out. Ah that's just that's the reality that I have observed in this world. Um, and we really have problems with.
55:36.56
nathanpile
M.
55:53.42
Kevin Shock
You know it's just it's it's it's scandalous like Paul says here the cross is scandalous and it's foolish when we look at things from a human perspective. Um, but it's transformative and it's true. Wisdom. When we see it through the eyes of god I you know I just can't like it's it's so hard for me to imagine how did how did Jesus just hang there on that cross and listening listening to his own people who were deriding him and saying. If you are the messiah if you are the son of god save yourself but like it's clear to him. They just don't get it they just don't get it and and at the same time. How could you possibly have a report of. The Roman Centurion 1 of the people who was involved in nailing him to that cross look at him at the moment that he gives his last breath and say truly this man was god's son not not only from a jewish perspective. But from I mean talk about transformative from a Roman perspective if his commanding officer had heard him say that he would be the next one up on the cross because caesar there is no god or son of god above caesar and.
57:07.80
nathanpile
None yeah.
57:22.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he he was putting his own life in danger when he uttered that statement of faith and and and and this is not someone who was in the synagogue listening to Jesus's teaching this was just someone who simply saw him die and participated in the execution i.
57:37.82
nathanpile
No.
57:41.25
Kevin Shock
I Just can't fathom how that's not a force greater than what we could ever generate or understand in this world.
57:56.59
Kevin Shock
Wow. Okay I'm just I'm kind of I'm just kind of overcome by yeah, ah it it's yeah.
58:05.58
nathanpile
Kevin will be preaching this easter at local congregations if you'd like to make sure you follow him on Facebook to find out where he's goingnna be because hell obviously he's gonna have a very powerful Easter Sermon which is always.
58:11.31
Kevin Shock
Ah, ah, ah.
58:19.31
Kevin Shock
Ah I don't know about that I don't know about that. Well whatever. Thank you? Nathan that's very kind of you to say? um I I mean it's just it's it's my life's work to figure out how to make this more. no no I don't make it anything.
58:22.35
nathanpile
Always the case. So yeah, yeah.
58:37.16
Kevin Shock
How to how to how to burn off or allow to be burned off all of the baggage that I hang on the gospel and just let the gospel be the gospel. Yeah, so if you want to read some different things about how God is ah doing some.
58:43.99
nathanpile
The gospel. Yeah.
58:54.76
Kevin Shock
Crazy things in the world crazy good things in the world. Um, there are some ah yeah okay ah ah exodus 20 versus 1 through 17
58:59.13
nathanpile
Hey before you beat your and give us ah a text. Um, no go ahead. Good. You give us the text get us text.
59:11.17
Kevin Shock
Ah, which is the handing down of the commandments. The law at the at Mount Sinai ah psalm 19 reminds the people that the commandment of the lord gives light to the eyes and then oh boy if ever we saw a great example of righteousness at work that just gets ah. All of us in a flurry. Ah Jesus um, is wait that can't be right? Oh I wait is that it's John is that the right? um.
59:34.96
nathanpile
And I'm going to look at the word here or what the words are that the.
59:44.81
nathanpile
Let them I'm looking I'm looking.
59:47.89
Kevin Shock
It it has to be because I I cut and paste this stuff from someone else somewhere else does it happen that early in John.
59:59.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it does oh wow well very chapter 2 Yeah yeah, okay so anyway, ah John chapter 2 versus that's because Jesus is talkative in John John should
01:00:00.70
nathanpile
Yeah matters.
01:00:09.67
nathanpile
He hid. There are some long chapters. Yes.
01:00:14.20
Kevin Shock
There is some long talkative chapters. Um John two versus 13 to 22 is the cleansing of the temple. It's when Jesus turns over the money changers tables and all that kind of stuff to to.
01:00:23.75
nathanpile
Yeah, remember John Jesus visits the temple a couple of times.
01:00:32.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, that's true I Just didn't think that he cleansed it this early in the gospel. But I I mean I'm sure I knew that it just seemed really early anyway. Ah so um, no, he doesn't waste any time. No, that's very true.
01:00:35.46
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:43.43
nathanpile
Hit ah in in in John Jesus doesn't waste any time.
01:00:49.43
Kevin Shock
Um, so anyway Nathan um you were were is there something else you were going to add.
01:00:53.69
nathanpile
I was just going to say I received a very kind note from ah 1 of our listeners and wanted to say. Thank you to Cindy for um, for reaching out and and sharing um a little bit about her story and how. Um, our conversations Kevin and I conversations um has touched her but also her words have touched me. So. So thank you to Cindy for um, for your note this past week that was great. Thank you so much yeah.
01:01:24.60
Kevin Shock
Oh great, good I'm glad to hear that um I also wanted to um I I offered up to Nathan something a podcast that I heard recently that I just think is great and is related to a conversation. Ah, that he and I had a few episodes ago on our ash Wednesday episode and ah, um, and the podcast is the pocket The show itself is called rumble strip and the podcast episode is called fin and the bell finn is a. Is a young man's name Finn and the bell and it is about you might remember from the Ash Wednesday episode we were talking about the horn sounding out and we were talking about oh fire whistles and at other kinds of things that sound out. Ah this is a ah a very touching story.
01:02:06.20
nathanpile
And.
01:02:16.99
Kevin Shock
About the a community in in their grief. Ah who um, who return a bell to its place and then begin to use it as a as a um as a proclaimer of good news in the community. Um.
01:02:31.21
nathanpile
M.
01:02:36.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so anyway it made me want to go out and get a big bell of my own.
01:02:45.31
nathanpile
I'm looking forward to listen into a day. Kevin highly recommends it so I looking I'm looking forward to listen and do it. So.
01:02:45.83
Kevin Shock
Ah, yeah, yeah, ah so as always, we are extremely grateful for your comments your reflections all the things that you bring to this podcast behind the scenes and um. We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.
01:03:05.27
nathanpile
And peace.