Translation: Alter
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What happens when you get hangry?
Additional texts:
Psalm 107:1-3, 17-22
Ephesians 2:1-10
John 3:14-21
Translation: Alter
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What happens when you get hangry?
Additional texts:
Psalm 107:1-3, 17-22
Ephesians 2:1-10
John 3:14-21
00:02.43
nathanpile
Welcome back. It's time to ten this week we ah will be looking at numbers the twenty first chapter verses 4 through nine. We're going to use translation. Um. Put together by is it Robert Robert Alter um I knew it was alter but I didn't know if it was Robert so um, but will be so you're unless you've gone out and purchased.
00:20.89
Kevin Shock
Robert hip.
00:27.74
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.
00:33.46
nathanpile
Robert Ult's translation. Ah you will not be able to follow along so grab whatever but bible is closest. Um or your phone and maybe you have a bible app on your phone and you can follow along numbers the twenty first chapter verses 4 through 9 3 questions this week what word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is god calling you in this text and what happens when you get angry that yeah that get that h down front of that angry. It's angry.
01:04.50
Kevin Shock
Wonderful. Yeah, it's angry. Ah well, we'll we'll find out what happens.
01:09.94
nathanpile
So hang I'm looking forward to that Kevin I did everybody listening Noah I did ask Kevin if he ate before the podcast and he he has so where we should be good to go. We should be good to go.
01:21.53
Kevin Shock
I have I have I'm I'm not angry right now. Ah, a disclaimer about who we are Nathan and Kevin are men married to women in financially stable households white in our late 40 s college and seminary educated.
01:26.42
nathanpile
You.
01:38.12
Kevin Shock
We work for the lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania all this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience and perspective this is numbers the twenty first chapter versus 4 through nine from the Robert Alter translation and they journeyed on from Hor the mountain. By way of the red sea to skirt around the land of edom and the people grew impatient on the way and the people spoke against god and against moses why did you bring us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness for there is no bread and there is no water. And we loathe the wretched bread and the lord sent against the people. The viper serpents and they bit the people and many people of Israel died and the people came to moses and said we have offended for we have spoken against the lord and against you. Pray to the lord that he take the serpents away from us and moses interceded for the people and the lord said to moses make you a viper and put it on a standard and so then whoever is bitten will see it and live and moses made a serpent of bronze and put it on a standard.
03:12.21
Kevin Shock
And so then if the serpent bit a man he looked on the serpent of bronze and lived if you're meeting with a group you can pause the podcast now and ask 1 another. Why did Kevin and Nathan pick this text to look at. Or he he can engage the questions on your own. Ah or you can listen to what Nathan has to say about this text Nathan what word phrase we'll talk a little bit about that in the first question. Ethan.
03:41.16
nathanpile
Kevin why did you pick.
03:47.97
Kevin Shock
But word phrase or image strikes you in this text.
03:52.14
nathanpile
Yeah, this is when you Um, when you divide things up and and you rely on your colleague to to pick the text you're kind of like Wow this is what we're going after. So nice. Yeah, ah so the the.
04:00.91
Kevin Shock
This is the one we're going after you know.
04:08.11
nathanpile
First thing that caught my attention because there was a lot here that caught my attention. Um, but my my first place because I think we're going to get to the second place eventually in why understanding why we have this passage but um. But the first thing that caught my attention was um, for there was no bread and yet they loathed the wretched bread and so um, so that sent my head in a bit of a vort vortex thinking a little bit about wow we're complaining.
04:44.42
nathanpile
Um, we don't have any bread but we're complaining about bread. Um, and and I wish I could say that doesn't sound human at all, but that sounds completely human.
04:57.77
Kevin Shock
Ah, yeah, yeah.
04:57.95
nathanpile
That that there's no bread to be had and there's no water to be had and we're having this we're on this journey and it's just so miserable and and I hate bread. You know the wretched bread. You know that we would that you know it makes perfect sense that that as human beings.
05:16.57
Kevin Shock
Um.
05:17.29
nathanpile
and and I don't know if this was you and I Kevin last week um or if I was in a conversation with a completely different person. Um, but that idea that of us complaining our complaints in the world. Um.
05:34.16
nathanpile
And and how we complain as as as human beings that we that we do complain. It's a part of of being human. Ah, but I wonder I wondered in that conversation and I continue to wonder do we complain. Differently today than and might have been you know two hundred years ago was the person I was talking to um, but like here in this instance, you know five thousand years ten thousand years like like.
06:12.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
06:13.99
nathanpile
Have human beings always have we always just complained have we has it just been is it just a part of what we do like we're We're never satisfied. We were complaining because we were trapped by the in in slavery from the Egyptians and.
06:24.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.
06:33.40
nathanpile
Moses and God frees us from that that slavery and we're not out very long and now we're complaining because we don't got um bread and water and oh that wretched bread. It's just terrible. You know, kind of a thing. So um, so I don't think that it's like reading this.
06:43.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:52.90
nathanpile
Tells me that that that answers that question that I had last week with whoever it was I was in a conversation about of do do we as human beings have we always complained and I would say for 12000 years we have um the least reading. This story in numbers tells me that you know I know we complain today I know I complain today. Um about the world and life and etc. But here we have a passage that also kind of lifts that up.
07:22.58
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.
07:27.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.
07:29.52
nathanpile
so um so I got that that question answered that at least for the last twelve thousand years we we have complained and and and that that it's that it is very. It's all about me. It's it's always been.
07:36.67
Kevin Shock
But yeah, yeah, it.
07:48.16
nathanpile
All about me.
07:49.65
Kevin Shock
Right? right? Yeah yeah, the um I mean hear they're complaining about the sustenance that God gave them in the wilderness. The the manna. Um and that.
08:00.53
nathanpile
Now.
08:05.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah I mean it's It's kind of a it's a shift of perspective. Um, yeah, this isn't the same reading, but there's another reading and I can't remember if it's an exodus or if it's in elsewhere in numbers. But where where the israelites are complaining to moses that they they would rather go back to slavery.
08:23.21
nathanpile
Now.
08:25.51
Kevin Shock
Because at least there they had great cucumbers and when I read that I mean that's that's a slight paraphrase. But that's essentially what scripture says? Yeah, um, you know I'd like I've never had a cucumber so great that I would be willing to go but go to so.
08:33.59
nathanpile
Yeah,, that's essentially what they're saying. Yeah yeah. Okay, there going to slavery? Yeah yeah.
08:45.20
Kevin Shock
Be enslaved for it. But um, but it it is you know like they leave a bad situation and they don't immediately enter into a great situation. You know they're they're wandering and um and this is a this is a hard journey for a lot of them and.
08:52.91
nathanpile
Sure sure.
09:02.15
Kevin Shock
A lot of them that began the journey are not going to be there at the end of the journey um Moses himself included in that and ah yeah, so it's you know I like I I understand that they are like that I I won't take it away from.
09:10.33
nathanpile
Um.
09:20.77
Kevin Shock
From the characters in this story that they they do have reason to complain but I'm with you that one of the things that captures my attention in this is that yes they complain that they have no bread and then almost immediately complain about the bread that they've been given so. Do you have bread or do you not have bread it as I was reading this I was reminded of a time. Um, when I was I was probably I may have even been in high school I was either in in Junior high or high school and it was one morning where I had like I had slept through my alarm I was in a deep sleep.
09:54.84
nathanpile
Um.
09:57.94
Kevin Shock
My mom came upstairs to rouse me out of bed and ah the first thing I did in in the mornings then was go down into the cereal cupboard and get something you know, get myself a bowl of cereal and I looked in the full cereal cupboard and said there's nothing to eat here. Because I was just so tired. I said there's nothing to eat here and I closed the cupboard and I went right back upstairs and got back in bed and my mom came up probably not 2 minutes later it said Kevin what whether you eat or not, you're going to have to go to school to so.
10:22.77
nathanpile
It it.
10:34.13
Kevin Shock
Ah, yeah, it was just I I just remember being like I don't know why that memory sticks with me so hard except that I was like so disoriented with the world at that time that yeah and I yeah it it's it's it's it. It sounds now granted very different circumstances. But.
10:46.21
nathanpile
Yeah, that.
10:53.57
Kevin Shock
But the complaining I sounds the same to me. Yeah, yeah, so.
10:55.74
nathanpile
What's there that was there? Yeah yeah, yeah I can I can recall similar scenarios in my own head of complaining that there's nothing to eat in the house. Um.
11:03.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right? That's it I mean.
11:09.00
nathanpile
As ah as a teenager. Granted I was eating ridiculous amounts of food at that time. But um, but I was definitely like there was definitely food in the house but my complaining was over the top.
11:25.48
Kevin Shock
Yep yep.
11:27.20
nathanpile
How about you my friend. Ah what word phrase or image strikes you in this passage.
11:32.31
Kevin Shock
Um, and the lord sent against the people. The viper serpents and they bit the people and many people of Israel died it I there's like 1 reason I chose this text for today is because it's not.
11:40.60
nathanpile
Things.
11:51.26
Kevin Shock
It's not an easily digestible text I mean we come across stuff like this in scripture and this is just 1 example I mean there are some that are in I guess depending on who you are and in your own life and experience and background. May come across as even more offensive than this? Um, but the relationship between god and the people is not always so harmonious I mean I think that that like that's an obvious statement but it's hard for me to reconcile a.
12:20.81
nathanpile
Um.
12:28.62
Kevin Shock
Loving God with this with this sentence right here. Um, and and like I get that like my take on it is that God in order for God to to complete the saving act of the exodus.
12:31.70
nathanpile
Yeah now.
12:45.79
Kevin Shock
And get the people into the promised Land God has to make sure that they stay focused on what they're supposed to be doing on the journey and here they are losing focus and so God finds a way to get them back into focus. Um, because I mean you know right away that happens and and as soon as it happens the people the people came to moses. Um it you know repented ah asked Moses to pray to God on their behalf. Um that something could be done about these serpents. And um, so God's tactic God's tactic Works If That's the reason why but it seems like needlessly violent I don't know I Guess that's the word I Want to use for it. Um, yeah, it just it. It. I Guess it it leaves me asking Why why?? why? that way and yeah and it's not because I mean it's much easier for me to reconcile that you know people people complain to easily human beings. Make some bad decisions. We don't stay focused on on what's important very well. Um, like you know I understand that God would need to get our attention and that God Ah yeah I don't know and and you know.
14:23.87
Kevin Shock
God would want us. This is the season of repentance. So you know this this is again God is getting the people to turn back to God Um I I just it lingers in my in my gut. Um why why this way. So.
14:39.45
nathanpile
Now now.
14:41.98
Kevin Shock
I don't have a good answer I don't have I don't have an answer for why? Ah, but sometimes as I said to you before we started recording this episode Nathan ah it sometimes I think it's important for us to sit with the difficult texts sometimes and maybe not find all the answers. But um. Continue to meditate on them and and discuss them because they're not They're not going anywhere. They're not going away. So yeah.
15:08.28
nathanpile
Right? Yeah, yeah, as an ancient text This is again been around for a long time. Ah and and I like what you had to say there the idea of a it's not going away. But but that we need to wrestle with it.
15:16.57
Kevin Shock
Yeah.
15:27.80
nathanpile
Um, I think a lot of times in our world and our society today um getting the getting the right answer getting the the solution like that's what we want. We want it all tied up with a neat bow. Um.
15:44.78
nathanpile
But life but life really isn't that it's It's why we find it entertaining to see see that happen on the movie screen or in a good storybook or a story that we read but bible is the bible is. Ah, book of of of stories for generations of people walking with God and God walking with people. So um.
16:15.58
Kevin Shock
Right? Yeah, yeah, for some reason, um the you know the editors the early editors of of scripture of Hebrew scripture in this case ah saw it fit to leave this part of the story in there. So.
16:33.37
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah I I did I did notice that ah Robert Alter in his commentary does try to give ah a possible reason as to why? Ah god reacts with this punishment so quickly. Um, and that is that the the gift of sustenance that has been given to the people is being denigrated and so um, you know I don't I don't know if it's his theory alone or if he's gathering that from other biblical scholars as well. But um, but.
16:59.30
nathanpile
And.
17:10.28
Kevin Shock
The difference here is that the people the people have been given the manna to get them through this journey and that now they're like to read his whole commentary and and now they're pretty much they're like they're acting like they have to throw up whenever they whenever they eat it like you know we we.
17:26.19
nathanpile
He.
17:29.55
Kevin Shock
What does it say we loathe the wretched bread and and he says in the hebrew. It's possible that the people like it gets translated that way into English but it's possible that the people are actually retching whenever they eat the manna like there you know like like.
17:47.47
Kevin Shock
Like a kid who you know who makes that face you know whenever they put something in their mouth that they it's not that they don't It's not that they dislike it. It's that they don't want to eat it and ah you know So yeah I'm I'm I'm fascinated by alters commentary here about how.
17:48.25
nathanpile
Face. Sure.
18:08.82
Kevin Shock
There are there are words in Hebrew that have different meanings like the word for being nefesh also can be used to talk about like the gullet like the the throat specifically. Ah or the appetite and so this is the like.
18:28.78
Kevin Shock
But I get pictured in my head that they're eating this manna that God has given them for sustenance and then like making a face and like you know, coughing it up like petulantly like like you know, ah like a little child who's being difficult and um and so God's response is.
18:37.49
nathanpile
Is.
18:46.89
Kevin Shock
To send viper serpents to bite them. Oh my gosh and so again I'm not yeah I'm not condoning it. It's just what happens It's so anyway.
18:55.30
nathanpile
Right? right? right.
19:02.83
Kevin Shock
Well.
19:04.30
nathanpile
Now you have my head you have my head thinking there a little bit about about that that both your your um your discussion before and then and then specifically around this quote of the idea Of. Um, that God is that that that is the the vipers this vipe but viper serpents are in response to the way we treat the gift that's given.
19:36.86
Kevin Shock
Oh.
19:39.82
nathanpile
Kind of a thing. Um and I agree with you that it's hard to reconcile a story like this with a a God of love that we've talked about many many podcasts. Um, but I also think about.
19:57.83
nathanpile
Um, like when when we got when I got to my mom or my dad's the end of their patience with me he and and unfortunately it didn't always it wasn't they weren't always like what I would consider.
20:10.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.
20:17.56
nathanpile
Ah, loving parents I would consider it love now. But at the moment in time when it when the ah their response to my um, my angry words or or my my action. Um.
20:35.30
nathanpile
Wasn't they they weren't always able to be patient with me. Um, and so again we have so because we are human beings. We tell the story from our perspective.
20:53.19
nathanpile
Um, and so it's a vengeful God or an angry God Um, and it.
20:58.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not It's not even like I mean yeah, yes, you're right? We absolutely we spend a lot of time talking about a loving god and and there is tons of evidence in scripture all throughout scripture that point to that. But. Um, but specifically you know we we see all kinds of evidence in scripture that god's mercy manifests itself as patience and here god is being impatient. Um, you know this is a this is a this is a.
21:29.56
nathanpile
And there.
21:38.70
Kevin Shock
Quick fierce response to the complaining of the israelites and it just seems out of character now again you know I I immediately start doing mental and spiritual gymnastics.
21:41.80
nathanpile
Response? yeah.
21:57.47
Kevin Shock
To try to you know, reconcile it and and give the answer that well okay God had to keep them on track. Yes, there's also a part of this for me where I wonder oh gosh I couldn't figure out that noise was can you hear that on my mic.
22:11.41
nathanpile
Love up. Yeah, it sounds like 1 of your dogs is snoring is that what it is.
22:17.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he is snoring really loudly. Oh my gosh I was like what am I bumping here on the Mike and no, it's just heath is snoring. Okay, sorry everyone? um I got distracted there. Ah god's god's impatience is. Ah, reflection of the impatience of the israelites which again, that's that's not meant to explain it away but I can relate to that how sometimes I you know in relationship that kind of stuff happens. You know you you have a.
22:37.52
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.
22:48.58
nathanpile
Now.
22:53.25
Kevin Shock
You have an argument with your spouse or something and someone gets heated and then and the next thing you know both of you are heated even if you weren't originally because you begin to mirror one. Another's attitudes and and you know that's ah, not that I know anything about that I'm just saying maybe that happens. Um.
23:00.19
nathanpile
My my.
23:11.96
Kevin Shock
But but as as I'm thinking about a patient a God that we normally lift up as being merciful and patient. Ah it it's still it remains ringing in my ears that the people became impatient on the way and that's what caused their complaining.
23:26.66
nathanpile
No.
23:31.35
Kevin Shock
And then God immediately heard the complaining and became impatient with them. Ah I'm I'm just stating the narrative I'm not again. This is not a justification for how God acts. It's just and and then and then God again excuse me.
23:35.61
nathanpile
No.
23:43.99
nathanpile
Friend.
23:50.55
Kevin Shock
Gives them an immediate like out.
23:52.36
nathanpile
Right? right? There's there's again Mercy is present.
24:00.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, right, right? right? mercy that you ask I find myself asking the question. Why um, why couldn't the mercy just have come first you know, but um, but god does eventually yes god does end up being merciful in this situation anyway. But um, why don't we look at it a second time Nathan I'm I feel like I'm babbling now. But.
24:20.43
nathanpile
Let's do that? No, you're good second time through.
24:27.99
nathanpile
And they journeyed on from Hor the mountain by way of the red sea to skirt around the land of edom and the people grew impatient on the way and the people spoke against god and against moses. Why did you bring us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness for there is no bread and there is no water and we loathe the wretched bread and the lord sent against the people. The viper serpents and they bit the people and many people. Of Israel died and the people came to moses and said we have offended for we have spoken against the lord and against you pray to the lord that he take the serpents away from us and moses interceded for the people. And the lord said to moses make you a viper and put it on a standard and so then whoever is bitten will see it and live and moses made a serpent of bronze and put it on a standard and so then if the serpent bit a man he looked. On the serpent of bronze and lived.
25:46.20
nathanpile
Toward what is god calling you in this text. Kevin.
25:53.34
Kevin Shock
Um I think ah to the best of my ability to stay focused on the on the good things that God gives um not I don't want to say out of out of fear of Punishment. Um, because I don't I don't believe that that happens. In quite the same way. We read about it here. Um I Do think that there are consequences for our for a poor attitude or or or bad decisions or whatever it may be um, not necessarily God given but I but I do think. Like I don't want to be the person. Um, who stands either before God or before other human beings and gets impatient and complains about all the good things around me if that makes sense. Yeah.
26:41.88
nathanpile
Yeah, well tough.
26:47.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's not.. It's not a like I want to be I want to be thankful. Not so that I don't get bitten by snakes. But so that I can be someone who focuses on the good things that God has given and ah and and and have a a grateful attitude for.. What God has done and is doing.
27:13.82
Kevin Shock
Not always the easiest thing to do. But yeah, that's that's why we ask toward what is God calling you this text? ah.
27:22.15
nathanpile
That's right, right? Not that you're doing it What what are you doing from this guy from this text but what more what we're called toward. Yeah um, and and what well mine is ah similar as I was um.
27:27.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right? Yeah, what about you? Nathan.
27:39.47
nathanpile
Thinking about your response. Um because what stuck out to me this second time through is that they asked for god to get rid of the serpents and god doesn't do that. Um, and so ah like as I was thinking and and about what are we called toward I agree with you that it's.
27:49.37
Kevin Shock
Oh oh interesting.
27:59.20
nathanpile
It's um, looking at what God has given it and God gives a solution to having been bitten. Um, but God doesn't like so my response would be that that um that as I.
28:11.80
Kevin Shock
In.
28:18.38
nathanpile
Trust and communicate with God Um, that I trust that God is working. Um you know in God's ways, but they're not always going to match my ways. They're not going to match what I Want. God To do again I think I've used the image of God isn't a vending machine that I put my prayers into the slot and hit the hit my the right number code and God delivers down in the bottom of the bending machine. Whatever it is that I've asked for because God knows something.
28:36.13
Kevin Shock
Sure.
28:55.48
nathanpile
God Goes knows a lot more than what I know and so in my in my prayer in my response to God or my my here for them the repenting the turning back to god. Um, recognizing that that it's that as I pray I'm praying for the divine one to to engage me? Um, but it's not a. It's not just about like. My my expectation can't be that God's gonna only do what I want God to do? um and so there's a reminder of that being called toward that as you've put it to being called Toward looking at what is um what is good that is present. Um.
29:34.51
Kevin Shock
Ah.
29:52.20
nathanpile
That I miss but also recognizing that God God provides good out of my prayer but it's not necessarily ah directly what my prayer might be but there's still something worth giving Thanks for and being um.
29:59.63
Kevin Shock
Is.
30:11.60
nathanpile
And sharing gratitude for um, because of God's response does save everyone. That's been bitten. Um, so so that was that would be my long answer for that. But it was in.
30:21.11
Kevin Shock
He.
30:29.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, um.
30:30.94
nathanpile
Was interesting to me that idea as I read it this time I didn't pick that up. Um, when you read it but I did hear at that time of that I'm praying for you to take these snakes away and that's not what God does.
30:46.70
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah, um, no I'm I'm.
30:56.62
nathanpile
So There's something about the snakes that that that cause us maybe it has causes us to to refocus that God is God I don't know Um, but there's something about this text now that makes me feel like. This the snakes are are doing something in the relationship of helping the israelites focus back on god.
31:26.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm glad you noticed that distinction in the text and because um and and that your your reflection on it. Um, really does it I'm just kind of lost in thought about.
31:42.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, how many the the expectations that we put on God The things that we ask of God and how much of them are really just what we want I feel like I In. In my line of work I feel like I encounter that a lot. Um, and um, you know without without going into specifics I mean there's there's an element in the church and I and I don't mean I don't mean like there are.
32:18.13
Kevin Shock
Particular people who think about this I think that everyone in the church to to varying degrees thinks about this that wouldn't it just be easier if God solved all our problems for us. But if if God just um, you know.
32:30.80
nathanpile
Yeah.
32:35.12
Kevin Shock
Brought back the times when we were prosperous and you know we had lots of people coming and didn't have to worry about how we paid our pastor. Our staff and you know I mean again to varying degrees. Um, but. But I think that they're sometimes it's it's easy to get wrapped up in that. Oh yeah, just in that mentality in that line of thinking and it's and it's a downward spiral too that once you.
33:10.65
Kevin Shock
Once that line of thinking gets its hooks into you. It's so hard to get it get out of thinking that way. Um, so anyway, yeah.
33:21.15
nathanpile
You know, well and and again I appreciate that you're you bringing that up because we really do wouldn't it just be easier for God for you to just do this like we justify our our desires and wants.
33:23.14
Kevin Shock
Pen.
33:36.71
Kevin Shock
Um.
33:40.37
nathanpile
Because it's easy God Just do it? Um, yeah I appreciate that insight.
33:44.46
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.
33:49.57
Kevin Shock
Okay, well a third time all right from numbers. The twenty first chapter and they journeyed on from Hot the mountain by the way of the red sea to skirt around the land of edom.
33:51.18
nathanpile
All right? The third time.
34:07.95
Kevin Shock
And the people grew impatient on the way and the people spoke against god and against moses why did you bring us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness for there's no bread and there's no water and we loathe the wretched bread and the lord sent against the people. The viper serpents and they bit the people. And many people of Israel died and the people came to moses and said we have offended for we have spoken against the lord and against you pray to the lord that he take the serpents away from us and moses interceded for the people and the lord said to moses make you a viper and put it on a standard. And so then whoever is bitten will see it and live and moses made a serpent of bronze and put it on a standard and so then if the serpent bit a man he looked on the serpent of bronze and lived okay Nathan ah what happens when you get angry. So. But I apologize for that question.
35:06.88
nathanpile
Ah.
35:12.80
nathanpile
Ah, well when I get angry and to be honest I don't know if I would have known um like I think back when I was younger you know twenty years ago I don't think we well twenty years ago probably 27 I think I I became aware of it I worked with a colleague um who I still still dearly love. Um, but if um, but if he didn't get an apple sometimes we'd be in a meeting he would turn angry. Um, that was like my first experience of what he was like every idea became a bad idea even if like for the last twenty minutes we had been talking as a team of like this is a good idea. Okay this but all of a sudden it just became a terrible idea and we'd be all like like initially we didn't know what was going on. Um, but.
35:51.54
Kevin Shock
Oh my guys.
36:01.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.
36:07.79
nathanpile
Ah, but like we get something get. Let's let's get something to eat and and then we'll come back to the topic. Um, and so that was like my first experience of it. Um, and until that moment in time I don't know I probably was angry at different times in my life and just didn't know it. Um, but that was the first time recognizing that you could be hungry in it completely change your attitude. Um, and um and so you do do I get hang angry I I do get angry. Um, of course now that I'm aware of it I can I can tell that the.
36:27.23
Kevin Shock
Um.
36:31.17
Kevin Shock
Oh.
36:46.19
nathanpile
Um, what happens for me. Um I Wish I could say that as soon as I recognize that I'm angry I Just stop everything that I'm doing and get something to eat but that is not true. Um, and so I can't even I can't like. I'm affluent enough that I have plenty of food like there should be no reason that I'm angry. Um, it is that I've been at poor time management or I didn't plan very well and so I didn't bring a snack along um that I get Angry. So like it's my own fault that I'm angry. Um, you know the.
37:08.78
Kevin Shock
O.
37:24.14
nathanpile
The israelites here in our story. Don't they're wandering around the wilderness and and they they have manna but they don't have a lot of food and so like there's some sense of sometimes you're angry and it's not really your fault. Um, because you you don't have the food to take but for me.
37:37.29
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.
37:43.56
nathanpile
Um, as a American Christian Typically if I'm angry. It's it's my fault that I have allowed myself to get to that state. Um, but when it happens um like no idea is a good idea and complaining is a big part of my life.
38:00.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, ah.
38:02.99
nathanpile
So the things that we've talked about already of you know I absolutely would get um um, added to we get added to this um that that if I'm angry I'm I'm just miserable and.
38:21.99
Kevin Shock
Um.
38:22.26
nathanpile
And I'm probably making people miserable who are around me um it would it would be better that I would stop what we're doing but and oftentimes like you're just trying to push through and get through but it would be better if I'd stop and get something to um to eat. Ah. So that I'm less annoyed and can because like ah like my communication like I'm not listening as well because I'm distracted I'm hungry. Um, you know, um, and so that's a part of it. My judgment.
38:57.64
nathanpile
Level because I'm tired has has escalated so I'm even more Judgmental. You know it could be a fair idea and if I wasn't Angry. You know, hungry and angry at the same time. Um I Would you know be able to we could I could Okay, there's some positive things here. Let's But if I'm angry. A lot of times I'll just. Like this is not good. Let's let's get rid get rid of this idea or let's change this idea completely. Um, so I don't have the patience So I'm a little bit more judgmental I'm not listening I'm more impatient. Um, you know all of the pretty much the negative things that we see and experience here with these israelites in this story. Um, ah, showing up and so I would say that that pretty much summarizes. All of my what happens when I'm angry.
39:46.35
nathanpile
And it's not like I'm doing any of that intentionally some of it. It's just because I'm so distracted because of the hunger and that I'm I'm angry about it and so it's it's not like um yeah so how about you.
39:46.39
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah, um.
40:03.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah I yeah well I mean a lot of the same stuff I I suppose um, for me though I've been thinking I mean I thought of this question um, almost 24 hours ago and ah.
40:05.11
nathanpile
What happens to you when you get angry.
40:21.97
Kevin Shock
Just thinking about it as I was reading through this text. Um and and has me thinking about um well the ah you know I said I said earlier that the the hebrew word for being. Nefesh is can also mean like throat or appetite. Um, ah, but the thing about that concept of being the neesh is that it. When the Greeks came along. They're the ones who separated it into mind body and spirit and um and so I just think of of the way that the hebrews thought about it and if there's something not complete in your in your physical being then your whole being is not complete.
41:00.16
nathanpile
He.
41:14.59
Kevin Shock
Like there are ramifications for that in all in the in the the entire way that you you as a person as a as a sentient being operate in this life. Um, and so you know I have. I Think about I was talking to ah a friend who has a family member. Um, who went through recently went through a serious health crisis it continues to go through a serious health crisis but is on the path of recovery now. Um, but.
41:53.22
Kevin Shock
You know I said to this person. Ah how are their spirits and because I already knew like that like the physical stuff that was going on. Um and and even when I asked the question I thought.
42:03.38
nathanpile
Now.
42:10.79
Kevin Shock
It's not I mean it's a usual question that people ask, but it's not a question like it doesn't really ring true for how I think about people I guess I mean of course of course their spirit is damaged right now because their body is so damaged right now. Um.
42:20.92
nathanpile
Me.
42:27.17
nathanpile
No.
42:30.50
Kevin Shock
And and I think what I meant was you know more like how's their mood I think that's more what I meant to say but um, yeah I I Just I think that if we often. I Think maybe human beings are becoming more aware of it now because we have a word like hang is at least in English Um, but but there's there can be serious implications if you're not getting the sustenance that you need and and you know and we hear studies about like how? um. You know kids kids who go to bed Hungry. Ah don't perform as well in school things like that because their brain is not getting the nutrition it needs and they're and they're tired and they're not you know? Yeah, it's It's angry but in a different form. Um.
43:06.66
nathanpile
Right now.
43:22.79
Kevin Shock
So Yeah I Just I think about how the people here they had everything they needed and and and actually it kind of happens in reverse here. You know, not not that they're not getting enough to eat and so their attitude becomes bad. But. They develop a bad attitude because they get impatient and then they the next thing they know the stuff that God has been giving them to help get them through the wilderness. Um they're they're just like they're like they're choking on it. You know they're yeah they're yeah, that's not enough they're coughing it Up. It's disgusting.
43:51.97
nathanpile
Yeah, it's not enough to not enough.
43:59.12
Kevin Shock
You know makes me want to throw up. Ah that kind of stuff. Um, so I mean there in my mind is an example of their spirit is not whole and their body suffers because of it. So yeah, anyway, all the physiological stuff.
44:17.28
nathanpile
Well well, but again I Really appreciate that idea of yes, there's the the physiological Um, but there as you've captured it here or helped helped us to hear that. Um.
44:18.22
Kevin Shock
You know happens. But.
44:33.64
nathanpile
The Hebrew had a ah little bit different understanding than the greek of how we divide those pieces off of us and so that idea of wholeness for all of us. Um, is important and and and the attitude of the.
44:53.22
nathanpile
Israelites changes and therefore um, they're in their own impatience for getting to the the promised land and and um and becomes a lack of gratitude for what they do have and the food that they do eat. Um, kind of spirals their relationship with God to a place where you know both Both are are um, acting in ways. That disrupts the relationship so much that that they that you know they just they're not thinking and they just both respond God responds Quickly. You know they they they shout out in in Contempt for God and God responds quickly and.
45:28.34
Kevin Shock
And.
45:48.80
nathanpile
Um, and now people are being bitten and dying and um and the israelites you know repent come back to Moses apologize and say hey can can you help us with this situation and and God responds. Um, so um. But that idea of our our own wholeness. Um in that in in the in as we live life. Maybe that's what I would go back and say my towards what is God calling you that idea of of listening to our own. Um, mind Body spirit. Um as the greeks would say mind body spirit listening to all 3 so that we can. We can respond to God and and recognizing um that if something is. Is unbalanced in that or or out of balance that's going to cause us to be um, that anger to to well up in us.
46:54.64
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah.
46:58.83
nathanpile
Um, ah no I'm glad you ah you picked this one. We weren't I wasn't sure why it's beginning but it was a interesting conversation together.
47:07.92
Kevin Shock
Ah.
47:10.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well like I said I think it's worthwhile to sit with these texts a little bit wrestle with them talk with them. Yeah yep.
47:18.23
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah, ah some other texts that you might ah look at and engage with psalm one zero seven verses 1 versus 1 through 3 and 17 to 22? um you deliver your people from their distress. Um, so similar themes here as this reading from numbers ephesians two go ahead.
47:42.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and I was I was just going to say actually that psalm. Um, though it doesn't at least in the commentaries I've read does not say that it's specifically about this incident it. It relates very very closely to um. Yeah to what's going on here numbers as you already said. But yeah.
47:59.91
nathanpile
no no ephesians 2 verses 1 through 10 saved by Grace through faith for good works. So Paul writing to the people of ephesus and John third chapter verses 14 through 21 the lifting up of the son of man. So this idea of connect from from the this story here in the old testament of ah the serpent being on a standard that the son of man will be placed on a standard and lifted up.
48:36.40
Kevin Shock
And.
48:39.50
nathanpile
As a symbol of of John is very christological. Very um, cross focusedcused in John's theology and so picking up on this story that happens and um and also connecting to um, the part of Christ's life and how the christ saves us.
48:44.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.
48:58.57
nathanpile
Um, by looking at the cross we see Christ so um, well thank you Kevin for your reflections. We hope those of you listening have um, have had a conversation with someone else. Um, that might be close to you or. As you've listened to ours that you've also been able to kind of reflect a little bit about what this passage means for you from your experience. So again, if there's ways that you can share those reflections with us. You're happy to do that via email or in person when you see us or. On social media. So I hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.
49:42.41
Kevin Shock
And peace.