Translation: Common English Bible
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
How does it feel to know you don’t know everything?
Additional texts:
Acts 2:1-21
Ezekiel 37:1-14
Psalm 104:24-34, 35b
Romans 8:22-27
Translation: Common English Bible
3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
How does it feel to know you don’t know everything?
Additional texts:
Acts 2:1-21
Ezekiel 37:1-14
Psalm 104:24-34, 35b
Romans 8:22-27
00:02.49
nathanpile
Would you lend me your ear. It's time to tend. Yeah maybe didn't work as well as us hoping would ah.
00:10.39
Kevin Shock
Now I I was I was trying not to react ah like verbally or orally ah to hear it. It brought a smile to my face.
00:18.38
nathanpile
It's except we got a we got a home now. So I was going for a lend to tend rhyme there Everybody Sorry yeah, you Well yeah, you would You're sharp. So um, welcome back. We're looking forward to.
00:22.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah, ah yeah, no I got that I got that.
00:33.69
nathanpile
To tending our faith today together. We're gonna look at John the fifteenth and sixteenth chapters so John chapter 15 verses 26 and 27 and John the sixteenth chapter 4 b to 15 versus 4 b to 15 we're gonna Kevin and are going to read the common english translation bible. Um, and the you can find that on bible gateway or just pull your closest favorite translation off the shelf and. Follow along as we look at John's fifteenth and sixteenth chapters we're gonna answer 3 questions. 2 are very familiar to you what word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is god calling you in this text and our third question for this week how does it feel to know you don't know. Everything wow that you're making a presumption that I don't know everything Kevin I guess by that question. So ah.
01:33.25
Kevin Shock
Is that too leading of a question. Ah well I Okay I'll go I'll say then that the text makes a presumption that we also don't know everything.
01:42.49
nathanpile
Oh well I think it's absolutely true. We'll all have to live into what is real which is that we don't know everything. So.
01:56.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, okay, well um, here's a little bit of information about your host Nathan and Kevin we are men married to women in financially stable households white in our late 40 s college and seminary educated. We work in the lutheran church and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania all this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture. Is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with god and one another so we want to know what you hear and thank from your life experience and perspective here is a reading from john chapters 15 and 16 when the companion comes whom I will send from the father the spirit of truth who proceeds from the father he will testify about me, you will testify too because you have been with me from the beginning I didn't say these things to you from the beginning because I was with you but now I go away to the one who sent me. None of you ask me? where are you going yet because I have said these things to you you are filled with sorrow I assure you that it is better for you that I go away if I don't go away the companion won't come to you. But if I go I will send him to you.
03:21.63
Kevin Shock
When he comes he will show the world. It was wrong about sin righteousness and judgment he will show the world. It was wrong about sin because they don't believe in me, he will show the world. It was wrong about righteousness because I'm going to the father and you won't see me anymore he will show the world. It was wrong about judgment. Because this world's ruler stands condemned I have much more to say to you but you can't handle it now. However, when the spirit of truth comes he will guide you in all truth he won't speak on his own but he but will say whatever he hears and will proclaim to you. What is to come. He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and proclaim it to you everything that the father has is mine. That's why I said that the spirit takes what is mine and will proclaim it to you if you are meeting with a group of people to study this text. Ah, we encourage you to pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. But since it's you and I Nathan what word phrase or image strikes you in this text.
04:27.18
nathanpile
This was easy or immediate one that that actually caused me to stop listening to you a little bit had to re re-engage my mind by looking at the words but that word companion in the first verse of. Of the reading from chapter 15 ah yep, 3 words in. So.
04:47.14
Kevin Shock
So so you checked out 3 words in is that what you're saying okay all right? that's that's fine that's fine that's why we read it 3 times.
05:00.17
nathanpile
Yeah, it'll be like a new renewed passage to me the second time through um, ah but boy that um that the translation here of the common english bible for me is um well I just it set my mind thinking.
05:03.19
Kevin Shock
Um, ah.
05:17.80
nathanpile
Both that word companion. Um, which ah you know oftentimes is is talked about as an advocate. Um, you know the this idea of a one who.
05:35.58
nathanpile
Companion is a much more intimate word in my mind than advocate So an advocate sometimes make you think of a lawyer somebody who advocates for you or maybe ah even ah, a government representative would would be an advocate but here this idea of a companion comes.
05:54.30
nathanpile
To me. It's a much more intimate word which I like and and a companion also goes with you places where you need that support of an advocate somebody that would be like I think of a companion I think of a friend as someone who will go with me and support me. Um, in.
06:15.54
nathanpile
Times of trial in times that are are difficult when would be there as a cheerleader and so there there's this idea here. Um that I just loved with the translation because it it brought me all kinds of images of the Holy spirit and the ways. That that the holy spirit lives among us and and of course coming out of this. It also got me thinking that that sometimes I don't I don't personally um, spend enough time thinking about. This advocate this companion who God has sent to be with me. Um, and that that I don't that I don't talk about it enough in in authentic real ways.
07:11.14
nathanpile
So that others understand that like I believe that god is with me every day I believe that god um, and the holy spirit is with me but there's something about that holy spirit piece that that I don't proclaim well enough in my life. I don't believe well enough in my life so that others recognize both that god is is walking with me but god is also walking with them and to help them look for that gift of the spirit that is also a companion in their own lives. Um I think there's something about this idea of. Like we spent a lot of time talking about Jesus god god in Jesus because it was um, a man who walked the earth and was with other people and has these stories and yet the holy spirit also has a story but we we don't see at least again this is me um. I don't seem to hear it and I don't seem to live it in such a way that that helps others recognize that god still is absolutely um, journeying along with with us in our journey together. Um, and being able to articulate that to point out this is the holy spirit and and I think I try to do that more and more in my life but there was something about this passage that just kind of kind of was a waterfall of of thinking about this idea of the companion an intimate and.
08:42.59
nathanpile
Intimate friend an intimate um individual that travels with me in life. Um, and that it that it that it is God that does that. But then how do I talk about it in in such a way that others hear it. And it's not.
09:07.96
nathanpile
Um, because you can't see the Holy spirit Again, we talk about the Holy Spirit a lot of times it camp with the image of the wind and so I guess it can feel a little.
09:20.49
nathanpile
You can't see it but you can see the effects of the holy spirit. You can't see the you can't see the wind but you can see the effects of the wind as it blows on a tree. Um like there's something ah a part of my my lens on the world because it's. Invisible and it can't be seen. It's harder to make it tangible to the world. Um, and yet Jesus goes so that this gift of the spirit comes for all of us.
09:57.32
nathanpile
So it's not that you just have to be 1 of the 12 disciples to be with god but this gift of the holy spirit comes to be with all of us. Um, all of the time and so like it makes perfect sense to me that that Jesus needs. You know that Jesus needs to go so that there's other.
10:17.23
nathanpile
Piece of who God is comes and is and is a part of our lives but articulating it in a way that doesn't feel. Um, so out there.
10:36.30
nathanpile
So that because it's not tangible like I know it I feel it I can you know I will make comments about oh this is a holy spirit moment meaning that the holy spirit has been a part of making this moment happen. Um, but I don't do that like there's a lot of those moments in my life. And I do it maybe 5 % of the time you know and so how do how do I help articulate the companion that that god is in life with me. So that's kind of wear that word in your in your reading of that and I did obviously listened and.
11:13.81
nathanpile
And other places but ah, but the the first word absolutely kind of set me on boy I love the idea of the holy spirit being a companion. Um and and that companion being with me.
11:32.52
nathanpile
All the day. Ah you know all the days of my life. But then I also kind of realized that that in that relationship I don't talk about that often I don't feel like I talk about that often enough with others.
11:50.77
nathanpile
So that they too might witness and have the courage to share with me how the the companion has been a part of their life. We like to talk about each other's experiences and yet.
12:09.65
nathanpile
We'll talk about that around vacation about what our kids do about you know other things but we we in this way, you know that's a part of it that makes me want to talk more about this companion that Journeys with me every day. So.
12:28.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, um, interesting that you put it that way because I I think a difference between talking about our vacations and talking about what our kids do ah is is superficial.
12:42.76
Kevin Shock
Not to say it's entirely superficial, but it's not like that's that's kind of like sharing factual information I Guess um and I think you know who are you going to talk to your who are you going to talk to about your most intimate relationships people that you have. Other people that you have intimate relationships with and so it makes sense to me that people don't just go around talking about how the companion the Holy spirit has an effect on their lives. Um, because that's not it's it's a deeper level of conversation I think um.
13:20.23
Kevin Shock
But I think that everything that you said articulates. Perhaps why we don't talk about that as much or but I think you point out. Ah ah, a problem. That's that's the other thing I Want to say I think you point out a problem in how we talk about our interaction with God that um companion is a different kind of word. But also I think sometimes we just talk more generally about God about God being with us. Um, and maybe not specifically about the Holy spirit The companion. Um, but but I think that the holy spirit makes.
13:57.64
Kevin Shock
Um, makes herself manifest in so in certain ways I don't want to say specific ways. But I mean specific in the sense of like not to exclude other ways. But I think that there. Yeah, there are interactions that I've had that I know that the holy spirit has been present. And why? why do I know that because I know that by certain markers that might happen in that interaction. Um like I'm moved to compassion or or I um hear something and ah take a step back because it challenges. Something that I have believed or thought for a long time. Um, but it's ah but it's a healthy challenge like I think in those situations that's the companion um exerting some influence on the relationship and. And guiding us teaching us but also continuing to accompany us. Um, yeah, yeah, so I think I mean I can think I can you know like your image is good of the you can see the effect that the wind has on trees. Um I can see the effect that the holy spirit has had on my life. Um, and maybe I maybe I'm not as good about talking being forward about that in the same way that I might talk about god in general or Jesus or yeah, yeah.
15:30.56
Kevin Shock
Um, the other the other word that some you mentioned advocate The other word that some translations use is helper which again does not have the same kind of connotation that companion does. Yeah yeah I think Helper an advocate.
15:42.45
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:48.64
Kevin Shock
Um, advocates as I think of them have an important role in ah in the world but they but I don't I don't think of them as having an intimate relationship with um with the people that they're advocating for and sometimes they may not even know.
15:51.43
nathanpile
Sure.
15:59.56
nathanpile
Yeah.
16:08.40
Kevin Shock
Personally the people they're advocating for but other times they will yeah.
16:16.61
nathanpile
Well, what about you? What word phrase or image strikes you in this text.
16:20.13
Kevin Shock
Verse 12 I have much more to say to you but you can't handle it now. Ah it it evokes for me. Um Jack Nicholson in a few good men you you want the truth. You can't handle the truth.
16:38.78
Kevin Shock
Um, and of course that's a you know that's ah that's a negative connotation. Ah that that line from that movie. Um, here it's a for me I receive it as a word of care. Um.
16:56.47
Kevin Shock
There's there's a lot that you have to learn but you're not going to understand it now or there's a lot that you have to learn. But um, you're not prepared to receive it like you know, emotionally spiritually you can't you can't wrap your mind around it. And that and that will be damaging to you. Um, and so Jesus here is choosing not to share everything and I think for me, the reason that this verse stands out also is because it comes right after that section where he talks about. Um, when when when the companion comes he she will show the world. It was wrong about sin righteousness and judgment. Um, and then it lists all of those things. Why.
17:51.33
Kevin Shock
the world was wrong about sin why the world was wrong about righteousness why the world was wrong about judgment but I confess that like Jesus's explanations here. Do not make much sense to me I mean they they kind of do but and and I understand what it I understand.
18:08.16
Kevin Shock
In general why the world is wrong about those things because the world makes assumption. You know human beings make assumptions about those things based on what they know and if they don't know the truth that Jesus has come and lived out and if they don't know what the companion is going to guide them in then they have. Then they have wrong understandings about saying righteousness and judgment. Um, but the specific explanations he gives don't like I don't know like I read over them a lot and I'm not sure exactly why you know i.
18:46.57
Kevin Shock
I don't know exactly why Jesus chooses the words he chooses there. So I read those things and then I hear verse 12 that is all you know that says you can't handle it now and I think yeah I can barely handle. Things that you said in those last 3 verses. So if there's a bunch more that you have to say like just give me time to grow into it I guess and I think that's exactly what the companion does I think the companion gives us time to grow into this stuff because um, that that. Holy spirit work of repentance or renewal um metanoia the the reshaping of the world in light of the of the death and resurrection of Jesus it. It's ah you're relearning. Ah. Whole new way to live and you're relearning a completely new perspective of how the world actually is through the lens of how god sees the world and what god created the world to be so you know you can't It's not instantaneous like suddenly you know these things and everything changes for you I mean it does but but you're going to keep living the way that you know to live until the spirit teaches you a new thing and then you might alter the way you live a little bit and slowly do that.
20:15.92
Kevin Shock
Ah, until until you know at some point in Eternity we will understand everything that God has to teach us to show us the the whole truth. Um, but it but it takes time. It It takes time.
20:40.55
nathanpile
As you as you share about truth and and obviously the scripture passage talks about truth here. Um, we live in a time where truth seems to be.
20:57.83
nathanpile
Often articulated as whatever my truth is that this is not speaking of that kind of truth.
21:02.10
Kevin Shock
Yes.
21:12.56
Kevin Shock
No I and I mean I think of this as ah I have to think of how I would define how I would define this truth. It's holy truth. It's.
21:27.95
Kevin Shock
All that there is to know about the reality of the world and everything in it the whole universe the whole cosmos as as God made it to be and and and included in that truth is who God is.
21:41.14
nathanpile
Well, and.
21:47.97
Kevin Shock
And so ah, you know some people will say that um I guess I guess a complaint of ah or a critique of postmodernism is that truth has become relative but I Also um I'm not I'm not sure if I.
22:05.39
Kevin Shock
Necessarily agree with that critique because I also see it in the way that truth is complex and so the way that I see something through the lenses that I've been given and the lenses that I've constructed for myself. And the way that someone else sees something through different Lenses. We might be looking at the same thing and we might come to different understandings about it. But again it doesn't mean necessarily that either of our our understandings is wrong. Um I mean it could mean that but I think it. I'm also open to the possibility that it could mean that each of us is only seeing a portion of what the whole truth is and and none of us knows the whole truth and so it it might be where I.
22:46.68
nathanpile
Mm, yeah.
22:55.67
Kevin Shock
The the reason I don't like the critique that truth is relative is then it so easily is turned into while anything that someone else says is true that I don't agree with I can reject. It's wrong when in reality that other thing.
23:05.00
nathanpile
Right.
23:12.37
Kevin Shock
That you don't agree with or doesn't look exactly like the truth as you see it may be a way that the companion is teaching you what the whole truth is or or showing you a different perspective about the truth. Yeah.
23:21.36
nathanpile
Yeah.
23:30.44
nathanpile
Um, well and I think that the best way that everything that you've shared I absolutely am nodding my head along people at home can't see me doing that. But um, it's part of why Kevin and I feel so strongly that we tell you about who we are at the beginning of.
23:50.30
nathanpile
This podcast every time some of you easily fast forward it for 10 or 15 seconds so you don't have to listen to it every time and we get that. But but part of it is to say that we're we recognize we're only seeing our piece of the truth. And and the important part of being community and and engaging scripture together is that we might broaden that piece of truth that we might see a little bit more of that truth um, when we put all of our our. Interpretations of what scripture is saying to us together and that's why we advocate for you to talk with other people and and to share with us your thoughts. Um, so that together we're building that bigger sense of truth which your critique of. We. Absolutely today say well truth is relative and so it just allows us to push it aside. Um I don't think that's that's um, that's what we should do with it. We have to deal with and wrestle with when somebody else says something that.
25:05.21
nathanpile
Doesn't feel true to us. We need to wrestle with what what's making it feel awkward is it does it mean that we have to deconstruct some of our lens the way that we look at the world because we don't have it right? Um, and so that's a part of.
25:23.45
nathanpile
It's easier to ignore it and to say well truth is relative truth is is changing I think there's certain things about our world that that absolutely aren't don't change like none of us would say that. Um.
25:41.63
nathanpile
That torturing a baby is a good thing like that. It's it's not relative that doesn't change like we can we we can all agree that torturing babies would be terrible now. There might be some that unfortunately that that. That's a part of the way their mind is and but we as society say that the part is broken. Um, but how do we together we have to be able to see the truth and so that means we have to talk together that means republicans have truth and Democrats have truth. Um.
26:02.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
26:20.40
nathanpile
And and and when we just disregard each other the things that we hold to be true when we just simply disregard it. We're not seeing the fuller picture of truth that God intends for the world to see and so.
26:38.60
nathanpile
Um, so I appreciate this kind of bunny bunny bunny trail of talking about truth because we do hear it here. We do hear about this idea of truth and so and unless we as as people today. Wrestle with this idea of truth and and push back a little bit on on what that means in our world in our conversations with 1 another this will continue. We will continue to kind of disregard each other.
27:13.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, and there's a there's a line there. Um, first thirteen when the spirit of truth comes you he she will guide you in all truth. And I think that that's where we I think that's where we as human beings fall short is that we we don't ah you know that the funny thing is is that sometimes the people who accuse other people of ah living into their own truth upholding their own truth. Are doing the exact same thing just because their truth doesn't mesh with other people's truth Um, they're all truth I don't know that that probably that phrase would or that word would take some unpacking to.
27:47.84
nathanpile
Yeah.
28:04.58
Kevin Shock
As to what that might actually mean but I don't know that I understand what it actually means? yeah yeah I I mean I can think of ways that like I you know I just had an experience this past weekend I was on vacation visiting family and um, my. My sister um married into a family who ah who you know has planted churches and um and I don't know exactly what I don't know what they would say that their theological tradition is um, but you know it's It's more um, what? what we in our tradition would call nondenominational. Um, perhaps more evangelical I I don't know but ah I find I found this weekend that I go into that experience of like going going to worship at that church. Um, and this is the first time I worshipped at this particular church which is a long established church plant that is I mean ah you know there were hundreds of people there on on Sunday morning. Um I go into it with a much more open mind than I used to. Um. I'm I'm looking for I'm looking both for things that resonate with me as as someone who's a pretty dyed in the wool lutheran and um, and even my sister's brother in-law Eric is the lead pastor of this church and he even.
29:39.90
Kevin Shock
Even quoted Martin Luther is certain this week so I was like okay there we go well like I felt like the holy spirit had given that to me and I and I said ah I kind of when Eric did that I kind of leaned over to my sister and said oh did he know I was coming this week or something like that and and. Kelly said um, actually he's been quoting Martin Luther a lot in this series and I and I thought to myself he was he was teaching on Galatians so I thought well ok, it's not entirely It's not entirely. Yeah, um, ah.
30:08.22
nathanpile
Oh ah.
30:14.14
Kevin Shock
Foreign to me or you know it doesn't surprise me so much that he is quoting a lot from Martin Luther because that's that that pauline tradition feeds right into the lutheran tradition. So um, anyway, but I should have taken a notebook I didn't because I was finding all these ways. During the worship service of thinking. Oh this is an advantage to worshiping in this tradition or this culture this church culture like you know I looked around and there were boy there were there were children and young adults.
30:51.50
Kevin Shock
Everywhere and news flash lutherans it's not because just because they had praised music. It's because they encourage a culture where people are thinking about scripture thinking about god Twenty Four seven and um and like to the point where you know there there are certain things that there are certain parts of broader culture that people including myself consume that um, they would say it's not helpful to consume that. They don't have like rigid rules about it. But I think there is a culture that like you when we when we speak when we talk when we act when we think we're thinking of it through the lens of what god is teaching us and and how god is leading us and ah we in our tradition. that's ah that's a pitfall of our tradition. We we do teach it kind of you know, open questions open to other viewpoints and I think we perhaps haven't done a good enough job of saying you know god is in the middle of all of this and so consider how god is speaking to you in this situation. You know in what you're hearing and what you're receiving at all kinds of stuff but that's just 1 example. Um, so I mean I kind of left there that church with a oh these are the these are the good things. These are the things that made me struggle or.
32:27.61
Kevin Shock
Or challenged me and and came to pretty quick conclusion that I wouldn't do it that way. Um, or we don't do it that way in our tradition but I also left with the same list of oh these are kind of the problems with our tradition and and um.
32:46.33
Kevin Shock
Oh this is also this is what's good about our tradition. What what we uphold and um and ways that we can talk about things that there might not be the same freedom to talk about them in this tradition but but in any case I like I was able to make a list of of good and I don't want to say bad. But. You know for me personally problematic things in both traditions in the one I was experiencing on Sunday and in the one that I've been a part of my entire life. Um, and I think that that is I think that the companion has gotten me to that point where.
33:24.39
Kevin Shock
Don't just go into a place and think like oh well I'm I'm going to be hearing stuff. That's a lot different from what I'm used to hearing and so I better just brace for it and then I'll then I'll go out afterwards and you know go to lunch with my mom and just complain about it because um, ah yeah.
33:42.71
Kevin Shock
I'm I'm just not in that place anymore and I think that ah and I think that that's holy work That's God has done that in me, um, and and frankly, it's much more helpful for me to think about things this way because because it it helps me to.
33:55.66
nathanpile
Sure sure.
34:01.18
Kevin Shock
Um, Alter or or live into the the witness and the religious leader that God wants me to be more than it helps me to tell other people how they might fix their own tradition to better suit who I am.
34:20.60
Kevin Shock
Thinking that my my truth is the truth for everybody. So yeah, anyway, that yeah, that was a long kind of ah yeah, truth is a big thing I'm I'm appreciative that you kind of brought that forward in this ah conversation.
34:39.29
Kevin Shock
But I think that maybe we should move to our second question because we're like 35 minutes in here. Maybe we covered some of question 2 and 3 in question one? yeah.
34:42.12
nathanpile
Ah, we should because we hey is we we we might have we may have we may have so let's read it through a second time.
34:56.47
Kevin Shock
You're going to have to pay attention beyond 3 words now because you're reading it.
35:01.33
nathanpile
I will ask for the companion to be with me So when the companion comes whom I will send from the father the spirit of truth who proceeds from the father he will testify about me, you will testify to.
35:07.12
Kevin Shock
Amen.
35:19.24
nathanpile
Because you have been with me from the beginning I didn't say these things to you from the beginning because I was with you but now I go away to the one who sent me none of you ask me? where are you going yet because I have said these things to you. You are filled with sorrow I Assure you that it is better for you that I go away if I don't go away the companion won't come to you. But if I go I will send him to you when he comes he will show the world. It was wrong about Sin Righteousness and judgment he will show the world. It was wrong about Sin because they don't believe in me, he will show the world. It was wrong about righteousness because I'm going to the father. And you won't see me any more he will show the world. It was wrong about judgment because this world's ruler stands condemned I have much more to say to you but you can't handle it now. However, when the spirit of truth comes. He will guide you in all truth he won't speak on his own but will say whatever he hears and will proclaim to you. What is to come. You will glorify me because he will glorify me because he.
36:51.44
nathanpile
Will take what is mine and proclaim it to you everything that the father has is mine. That's why I said that the spirit takes what is mine and will proclaim it to you Kevin toward what is god calling you in this text.
37:10.81
Kevin Shock
I Think it's to um, listen pay attention ah receive the the all truth that the compete that the companion ah speaks. Delivers leads me in. Yeah um, yeah I don't know what much more to say about it that that's that's where I am.
37:43.91
nathanpile
And and ah for me. Um I would I would say the same thing and I guess I would share a story um, in that again, kind of building off of what you talked about in in the the phrase that caught your. Attention here in the first question but as I as as we read that that idea of truth like there's definitely times in my life that that I'm not ready for the truth all of the truth. Um, not I can't handle it I'm not prepared for it last week I was at in meetings with our ecumenical partners with from camps and retreat centers across the country from so mainline protestant denominations and one of the pieces that we. Talk around about about at that table is living into god's dream of that. We're all one so how do we get away from our own silos and recognize that we're far more similar than we are different, especially as camp and retreat centers like. 99% of what we do at camps and retreat centers are pretty similar. Maybe I would say 98% the the 2% difference is usually either is usually one theology and the other part. The other percentage is is because of our theology. Our denomination set themselves up structurally differently.
39:16.73
nathanpile
And so that structure also comes into how we as camps form. Um, but the thing that struck me last week about our conversation together was my recognition that that as we try to live together. It's going to be messy. Um, and.
39:32.49
Kevin Shock
Yes.
39:36.34
nathanpile
And I sitting at the table wanted to create structure around that messiness. So It wasn't messy and and and and the realization finally after sitting around the table and talking for for some time was that I. I Have to be okay with the messy I have to and and it goes back to your story of of recognizing that that in that sermon you heard things about the nondenominational tradition that you appreciated and about the lutheran tradition that you appreciated.
40:12.98
nathanpile
There was challenges of of their tradition that challenged you and there's challenges about like that is complex. That's messy, um and black and white. That's what we want but but I think some of the truth for us as God's people is that it's going to be messy and we have to be. We have to be willing to live in the messy to get through to the next piece there. You know we talk We think about scriptural examples of that Moses and wandering around in the wilderness that was messy time for the church. Um, it wasn't they didn't know what to do. They wandered around for 40 years. Um, and so recognizing that a part of the truth being revealed to us is us feeling um, uncomfortable and messy. Um, and so recognizing that in this passage. Like it doesn't say that we're going to be that it's going to be messy but but God revealing God's self to us and the things that we've gotten wrong like we're not going to like the feeling of that and so we're going to want to push back against it. But. Like again part of my sitting in that room last week was recognizing that I I have to be okay with that I can't control this and I can't create a structure in which it's not Messy. There's There's no way that we move forward. Um.
41:51.24
nathanpile
Into God's big dream of living together that it's not going to be messy and and that that God needed to inform me um, last week in ways around Sin and Righteousness um and Judgment. That I that I had that was keeping me from the truth that God is calling us towards um and so how do I You know how do how do I live into that. How do I deal with my own anxiety about.
42:29.41
nathanpile
How uncomfortable I am that I can't control it or that I can't put bylaws and structure in place that helps. Um you know because I'm there at the table advocating for.
42:47.33
nathanpile
Lutheran outdoor ministries that allows lutheran outdoor ministries to continue to control the outcome. That's not trusting the the truth to reveal itself and for us all to walk together in that way. It's the lutherans trying to control it or Nathan trying to control the outcome.
42:59.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.
43:06.50
nathanpile
Ah, so that so it's about us and so so I wanted to kind of bring that to a little bit of a practical place where I experienced this passage not knowing that this was our passage this week but as I was reading at that time boy that it doesn't feel great to be called toward.
43:07.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:25.70
nathanpile
Toward mess and and and being able to control. But I think that's a part of this piece of truth. Um, as as we try to live into the truth that god continues to reveal because I felt around the table. There was a lot of truth being shared. Of how we do how we how we live together as these mainline denominations. So the episcopals methodist united church of Christ Lutherans um like I can't think of presbyterians the United Church canada like there was 6 of us around the table like there's. Everybody's bringing their own view of truth and yet being able to embrace their truth meant I had to let go of control to be able to allow for for us to continue to communicate and and to live into this. This greater vision of god's truth together.
44:26.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's um, that's a helpful practical example of what ah of the of why we can't handle all truth. Ah.
44:35.14
nathanpile
And I wish I could say that I left feeling this but this was all processed after I left when I left I was still really uncomfortable with the way things went so like like I'm not done working on like on myself because of this experience.
44:42.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. Yeah, and what and what you say makes me think that like that that isn't that the it's it's hard for human beings to exist without some kind of set of I don't I don't even want to say rules but some kind of set of. General understanding that we can all agree On. Um, so that we operate within certain constraints or or operate in a certain way so that we can all be in agreement about the way that we're operating and and I realized that um, as.
45:38.00
Kevin Shock
I've just been thinking about this a lot. Um, in regards to our own denominational structure and how there are there are ways that people are currently talking about how to how we might alter our current denominational structure to help. Feed ministry in healthier ways. Um, and 1 thing I'm just thinking about is that conversations have come up that made me realize oh it would be really easy if we just altered if we amended the constitution to say this and we could just do things this way. However.
46:13.85
Kevin Shock
Anything that we do with that means that we're giving something else up it it like you never change something like that and it just alters. 1 particular thing that you're working toward it might alter ah several things and and maybe even things that you can't.
46:18.14
nathanpile
Yeah.
46:32.39
Kevin Shock
You can't yet see that it will alter. Um, and you know what? what you said is true is that um our different theologies result in different polities ways of operating. Um, and so you know we might we might say something about well we just want to make this amendment to the constitution. But we we might not be thinking about the theological implications of the message. We're sending whenever we do that? Um there's just. In any situation. There are more more things to consider than what we are considering in face value and and I think that that's where you know thinking about thinking about the disciples here in John's Gospel Jesus has told them that he's going away. You know they they had come to rely on him to teach them everything about who he was and who god is and the way the world is and now he's saying I got to go and and and I'm going to send you a companion.
47:46.50
Kevin Shock
Will continue to guide you in all truth um but I think that that's got it that has that has to be uncomfortable for the disciples and and it's it's uncomfortable for me in some regard to that. Ah.
48:04.69
Kevin Shock
Like I can I can say that I'm going to listen to all sides of something or I'm going to you know I'm going to be open to the way that the holy spirit's guiding me but the truth is there will always be something that will be like a bridge too far for me and and then and then that will be. Not that I can't not that the holy spirit can't change me in the midst of that. But it's not going to be comfortable it's not going to be comfortable and and I think that that I think that's a lot of behind what Jesus says about you can't handle it now. Because when we're uncomfortable then we start to get uncomfortable about lots of things when something challenges our viewpoint or our worldview then we start to think then we start to get anxious about other things around us too and before we know it, we're not able to be open to anything. We we just want to circle the wagons so to speak and and cling to the things that we really rely on and things that we really believe in whenever the holy spirit might be telling us you need to let go don't cling tighter. You need to let go. So.
49:20.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's not. It's not as simple as just being open to things ah as much as I would like that to be the case. It's just not that simple. Yeah.
49:24.68
nathanpile
Right.
49:32.81
nathanpile
Well we're we're already talking about that third question, why don't we read it for a third time and and we can keep keep talking about that a little bit.
49:38.50
Kevin Shock
We are ah okay okay I will read through there. Um, John 15 and 16 when the companion comes whom I will send from the father the spirit of truth who proceeds from the father he will testify about me. You will testify too because you have been with me from the beginning I didn't say these things to you from the beginning because I was with you but now I go away to the one who sent me none of you ask me? where are you going yet because I have said these things to you you are filled with sorrow I assure you that it is better for you that I go away. If I don't go away the companion won't come to you. But if I go I will send him to you when he comes he will show the world. It was wrong about sin righteousness and judgment he will show the world. It was wrong about sin because they don't believe in me. Will show the world. It was wrong about righteousness because I'm going to the father and you won't see me anymore he will show the world. It was wrong about judgment because this world's ruler stands condemned I have much more to say to you but you can't handle it now. However, when the spirit of truth comes he will guide you in all truth. He won't speak on his own but will say whatever he hears and will proclaim to you. What is to come. He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and proclaim it to you everything that the father has is mine. That's why I said that the spirit takes what is mine and will proclaim it to you? Nathan.
51:06.80
Kevin Shock
Ah, how does it make you feel to know that you don't know everything.
51:11.83
nathanpile
Who are we've already kind of said about this of this idea of uncomfortable. There's a uncomfortableness. There's an anxiety a piece to that of of recognizing that we don't know that I don't know everything. Um.
51:27.83
nathanpile
As a part of it and I think and the way that I walked through last week that that I found helpful for me was to recognize the things that I. That that allowed or that I helped to seek compromise around was because there were values like it was important that everybody's voice that's around that table continues to have voice around that table those organizations not necessarily just the individuals but those organizations. Have voice around that table is more important than than my my personal motivation of of control and so being able to recognize to allow ourselves a to feel vulnerable.
52:22.28
nathanpile
Like I I tried to take advantage of every time we had a break just to kind of walk and and stretch my legs and and um, yeah, talk to myself talk to God a little bit um to give me the the space that I needed within the midst of my own anxieties around. The loss of control um to be and to be open to to the pieces that others shared because there were things that that we were learning from each other in this. Like it was hard work it like I came home after the four days we were there I was exhausted like super really Tired. Um more so than than I can remember in in other times when we've gathered together and had conversations and so like it took a lot out of me to. To recognize what I know to be a a a truth which is we're better together than we are apart so recognizing that truth was a value. Um, but that meant I had to do some. Personal inward working that I didn't know everything and I didn't and I and I Absolutely don't know what the what the the future actually is all I can do is hold on to some of those truths that God has revealed.
53:54.42
nathanpile
And that God is continuing to reveal to me because even after this meeting I recognize there will be other meetings and those meetings will also help me to see more fully. God's truth that I don't see today. But I think walking into this meeting I envisioned that I knew. What the next steps were and though I think I have some of those steps still continue to be probably steps that we will take in the future. There was also new steps revealed to me and some of it was being able to let go.
54:29.60
nathanpile
Of the control of what the next steps will be.
54:36.59
nathanpile
So so I would say how does it feel to not know everything. It's it's uncomfortable. It takes energy. It's it's It's a lot of work and and I think unfortunately for us. Um, we're in that kind of a paradigm.
54:52.70
nathanpile
as as god's people today like it's going to being vulnerable takes energy and work. But I also think it's the way forward I also think it's the way forward.
55:03.20
Kevin Shock
Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's energy and work that people don't feel like they have and and I understand why? um I wonder if there's room for us to let go.
55:09.18
nathanpile
Yeah.
55:20.50
Kevin Shock
Some of the energy and work that we put into keeping things exactly the same the way we want them to be all the time and and translate that into being vulnerable before other people. Um, so that we might grow together. Yeah, it's not.. It's not an easy thing. It's not an easy thing but I I think I've already answered this question. Ah, but I will say ah I'll echo what you said that it makes me feel uncomfortable. It makes me feel frustrated it also for me and I know this isn't the case for everyone. Ah. Lens Toward freedom. Um, if I if I don't have um if I don't know everything that really minimizes the um the Hills that I feel like I have to die on in order to keep something exactly the same.
56:17.20
Kevin Shock
Knowing that I don't know everything frankly if I'm being theological about it allows me the space to put more trust in God about the things that I don't know and and and I think that that's um.
56:28.19
nathanpile
Yeah, that's great.
56:35.50
Kevin Shock
If we want to go back to the second question. That's probably also a part of my answer to the second question is to be able to trust god I feel like I'm being called toward more trust in god and I know we've talked before about like that's not something you can just well up inside of you but it does. But being open to the holy spirit will result in that now. Yup well that was a lot of deep conversation. Um.
57:06.16
nathanpile
Was thank you for for your sharing an additional text if you're looking for other things to kind of dig into this week x two acts chapter 2 verses 1 through 21 filled with the holy spirit to tell god's. Deeds so this is this is the early apostles talking with followers specifically this is Peter but being filled with a spirit to go and tell about what god is doing in the world and we touched on that here a little bit today. Ezekiel 37 thirty seventh chapter verses 1 to 14 and life into the dry bones. We have a song about that at camp dem bones gonna rise again ah psalm one ah 4.
58:03.84
nathanpile
Verses 24 through 34 35 be send forth your spirit and renew the face of the earth and romans 8 verses 22 through 27 praying with the spirit. Kevin thank you for your reflections and you the listener we pray that god's truth continues to make inroads in your lives and for you to share some of that truth with us either through. Social media or through an email some of you continue to do. Thank you Susan for your recent email and sharing the the way that scripture is impacting you. We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.
58:53.24
Kevin Shock
And peace.