Episode 38: John 6:51-58

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Additional texts:
Proverbs 9:1-6
Psalm 34:9-14
Ephesians 5:15-20
1 Kings 2:10-12; 3:3-14
Psalm 111

Transcript

00:01.95
Kevin Shock
If you are hearing this, you get a gold medal in tending.

00:08.48
nathanpile
oh da da da da da da da um ah ah

00:19.03
Kevin Shock
I think that I think that we should tend our faith with the intensity that a, that an Olympic athlete trains for their events.

00:24.15
nathanpile
da da da 

00:30.06
Kevin Shock
I mean, that sounds that sounds facetious when I say it like that, but um I don't think it's a bad idea.

00:35.93
Kevin Shock
So anyway, um Nathan and I are here again to talk about scripture and for you either to listen, but I really hope that you um have the opportunity to talk with someone else about scripture ah or at at the very least ah spend some time thinking, writing, drawing, ah whatever helps you to process what we are,

00:58.67
Kevin Shock
discussing together. So today we are looking at John chapter 6. This is coming toward the end of the Big Bread chapter verses 51 through 58, and the translation we're using is the Common English Bible. You can find that on BibleGateway dot.com, the Bible Gateway app, or simply use the translation of your choice that's nearby and follow along with that. Our three questions today.

01:31.25
Kevin Shock
What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text? And how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Mm, that's good stuff, Nathan. That's gonna really...

01:45.95
nathanpile
That's going to be a good, we're going to talk about that.

01:47.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I, I had, I had very, I had very good reasons for why I picked this text. So we'll see how that goes.

01:54.73
nathanpile
All right, we'll see see where it takes us today in our conversation.

01:57.74
Kevin Shock
Yep.

01:58.40
nathanpile
ah Some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white in our late 40s, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you think and hear from your experience as you engage scripture.

02:39.26
nathanpile
John the sixth chapter, verses 51 through 58. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. And the Jews debated among themselves asking, how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, I assure you, unless you eat the flesh of the human one and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day. My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.

03:31.09
nathanpile
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them. As the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me lives because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It isn't like the bread your ancestors ate and then they died. Whoever ate whoever eats this bread will live forever.

04:03.64
nathanpile
If you're meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Or you can listen to Kevin here as he shares his his reflection on the first question, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

04:23.83
Kevin Shock
ah Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them. but um I'll confess, Nathan, there's a not a lot about this ah passage that I really understand completely. um there are I think this is one of those passages that have, that has led to ah millennia of theologians and other church people trying to figure out exactly what we are supposed to believe about how Jesus comes to us in flesh and blood and bread and wine.

04:58.08
Kevin Shock
um

05:00.79
Kevin Shock
And ah so I know what I've been taught and I know what I trust, ah but this really is a difficult passage to hear. And I say all that to say, what I like about that verse is it reveals how intimate Jesus's relationship is with us That we are he is he is physically a part of who we are Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them um Yeah, so that ah

05:27.62
nathanpile
Hmm.

05:40.38
nathanpile
Yeah.

05:52.54
Kevin Shock
I don't, I don't even know how to expand upon it because ah I would think I would just get confused myself about all of the things that there are to say or not say, or yeah, get right or get wrong about this. But that's, that's the, that's the verse that sticks out to me.

06:08.54
nathanpile
Yeah.

06:09.83
Kevin Shock
What about you?

06:10.98
nathanpile
um ah the The words were the two words, the human one. and When I read them, um I actually paused a little bit because I felt like, so in the translation that Kevin and I are are looking at, human one is capitalized, capital H for human and capital O for one. um And it is ah common in the, it is it is the way the common English Bible um often translates the son of man or the son, well, the son of man is the way that they typically translate the son of man is is human one. ah and like And again, it's trying to show that singularity of ah um that Christ is human, is of the flesh, but also

07:01.79
nathanpile
um is one that has been set apart. um It is singular. It is the one. um And so so when I read it again, we've read it many times over multiple times that we've read from this translation. um But this is the like, ah again, when I saw it, I just kind of felt like, oh, ah this is something I should talk about a little bit. um because it does strike me every time I read it, um all of the other weeks that we've read it, the human one has kind of stuck out to me. But again, I think because of this reading, the this translation sticks out that that the one who is ah both human and holy, the one who is the Christ, is the one making this

07:58.52
nathanpile
this statement about himself and how he will feed the world. um And so this idea of the son of man or um the human one um being being the source of life for us. I even As I was reading, I even thought about

08:24.52
nathanpile
years and years ago, my daughter watched a, I can't even think of what the name of the full show was, but there was like a school bus, a cartoon and the the teacher was like a science teacher and she would take field trips every every week with kids. And I can remember one of the cartoons that I watched with Rachel was, it's like maybe maybe it's called Magic School Bus or something like that. Anyway, they shrunk the bus down and it went into your blood vessels.

08:47.81
Kevin Shock
That sounds that sounds right Yikes

08:52.60
nathanpile
And so i as I read this, I had this idea or like ah this image in my head of chunks of bread and wine floating next to me in the blood vessels of our body. Like as I read this passage of that idea of um of this of of the bread and wine of Christ being consumed in us. I know that's not exactly how nutrients get into our bloodstream, but that was the cartoon image in my head that I had um that kind of popped in there of was me kind of floating by on on a raft and there was bread and wine floating next to me in the bloodstream.

09:21.72
Kevin Shock
yeah

09:36.45
nathanpile
It was kind of the the image that I had. so yeah but

09:45.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

09:47.37
nathanpile
Yeah. So human one was my word.

09:50.05
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Good. Well, I don't have a lot to add to that either because this is a confusing text. Yeah.

09:59.69
nathanpile
yeah I'm glad you picked such a confusing text for us this week.

10:05.64
Kevin Shock
Well, I, yeah, no, I mean, I, that is the reason I picked it is because it's confusing.

10:10.96
Kevin Shock
I mean, there's a lot of, ah ah and there's a lot that's open to interpretation here and, and, um,

10:18.49
nathanpile
There is, there is.

10:22.61
Kevin Shock
and And some of our theological language even presses up against that, you know, I mean in our in our tradition The Lutheran tradition we don't believe in.

10:33.29
nathanpile
Transsubstantiation.

10:34.25
Kevin Shock
Oh What is it consubstantiation or transubstantiation? transubstantiation the where where the Bread and wine become the actual physical body and blood of Jesus um but how we talk about it is even ah more mysterious I don't know that we believe that that we believe that Jesus Christ is in with and under the bread and wine that's Martin Luther's terminology for it so that that he is fully present in the bread and wine so it doesn't taste like meat doesn't taste like blood but he's very much there and it is him when we take it in for communion when we ingest it

11:21.07
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

11:21.30
Kevin Shock
um So that's, yeah, I, right. This.

11:25.99
nathanpile
Do you think the transubstantiation debate is Lutherans just trying to make ourselves separate from the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Catholics?

11:37.58
Kevin Shock
ah

11:45.50
Kevin Shock
I mean, i don't I don't necessarily think so.

11:48.54
Kevin Shock
I mean, I don't know. I Because we get our language from Luther and Luther was very much in the thick of it.

11:54.15
nathanpile
Yeah.

11:54.40
Kevin Shock
I think i think it was just, I mean, i mean he was Catholic. ah I mean, he be can he probably considered himself to be Catholic until the day he died, even though he would have been excommunicated.

11:58.63
nathanpile
Right. Yep. He absolutely was.

12:07.37
Kevin Shock
um I I really think that, ah

12:07.73
nathanpile
Yeah.

12:11.52
Kevin Shock
I think that his language was his language and it wasn't necessarily in response to anything. It was just his way of helping to explain what you know what what what Christian people believed to be going on in the meal.

12:20.94
nathanpile
Yeah.

12:28.64
Kevin Shock
so

12:31.16
Kevin Shock
yeah I yeah Yeah, so I mean, that's where I am. I'm I could be wrong. I I don't I'm not ah enough of a historical scholar to know all of the ins and outs of and all of the ah details and factors that wade into why Luther talks about the way he does or why the Roman Catholics talk about it the way that they do.

12:44.45
nathanpile
Sure.

12:51.13
Kevin Shock
um But I do know that we ah we're called as Christians to take verses like this seriously. um And it doesn't mean that we have to understand them completely, but it does mean that if Jesus says that we are ah eating his flesh and blood, and if he says that that's what's necessary to remain in him and he and us, then well, we should at least pay attention to that.

13:22.38
nathanpile
Yeah. Well, and and again, it goes back to the piece of the mystery.

13:27.96
Kevin Shock
It is mystery.

13:28.13
nathanpile
Like this, this is a mysterious, there's mystery in this passage. And I think when we as human beings, like we want to be right, it's a part of our, our, our selfish human pieces that we want to be right. And so, oh, the Roman Catholic said this, it's a we as the Lutherans have to say that it's a little bit different. um But we don't, it feels a little bit like we can't let there be space for mystery. Yet at the same time, we say, this is mystery. um Like we use it to talk about that that the communion, that that this holy meal is um is um is mysterious.

14:13.40
nathanpile
And yet then we still try to make it fully explain it and put all the words in its place. And sometimes we just don't let the mystery be part of the mystery, I guess. I don't know.

14:24.53
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

14:24.87
nathanpile
That's just kind of the, you know, like as Lutherans, as, you know, yes, we need to explain this.

14:25.21
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

14:31.15
nathanpile
It's not transubstantiation, but it's, but Christ is, you know, is in it, is through it, is with it. um And so, again, recognizing that our our words sometimes, even despite the number of words that we have in our dictionary, there's still limits to to them.

14:55.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

14:56.41
nathanpile
and And I think part of me growing up in faith is that I that i had to accept that there's some mystery to all of all of faith, um and just to be okay with the mystery.

15:12.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, be be okay with the mystery. um I don't think that that means we don't wrestle with the mystery, but I do think it, yeah.

15:19.48
nathanpile
No, no, no, no.

15:21.25
Kevin Shock
But but I think, yeah, being okay with not, um not having all of the answers that we want is definitely, ah yeah, an integral part of it.

15:27.95
nathanpile
Yes, yeah.

15:31.75
nathanpile
Part of it, yeah.

15:32.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Back at the beginning of this chapter, um, I can't, I can't remember if we talked about it on this podcast or not, but it was the, is John's version of the feeding of the multitude.

15:44.46
nathanpile
Mm-hmm.

15:44.64
Kevin Shock
And, um, and John's version is the one that has the, the young boy who has his five barley loaves and two fish and, um, the

15:52.96
nathanpile
Mm hmm.

15:54.86
Kevin Shock
place where I was where I was leading worship this past Sunday, um the the I was talking about that for the you know for the kids who came up for the children sermon. And we were talking about you know how many like how many how many pizzas do you think it would take to feed all the people in this church?

16:19.10
nathanpile
Mm hmm.

16:19.33
Kevin Shock
And you know and and ah some kid came up with number 17.

16:25.48
Kevin Shock
why do you know how he came up with that number but uh but he said 17 and I said okay so then the the number of people that Jesus fed was about a hundred times at least a hundred times more than what we have here in the in the um in the church so um so we would need you know 1700 pizzas to feed all those people and you know can you imagine what 1700 pizzas is like no I can't imagine so

16:49.10
nathanpile
Ha ha!

16:55.97
Kevin Shock
And then I said, but Jesus, as we hear in the story, fed all those people with just five loaves of bread and two fish. And, and the, the, the, the kid who said 17 pizzas got this wide eyed look on his face. what you Like, like he just couldn't, like he couldn't understand how could that possibly happen?

17:12.50
nathanpile
Hahaha! Couldn't fathom it, yeah. Yeah.

17:18.93
Kevin Shock
And, um, and And I kind of said, yeah, I you know, I like I can see by the look on your face. That doesn't make any sense. And I said, it doesn't make any sense to me either. But all we know is that Jesus had the power to feed all of those people, even with a very little bit. And there were a bunch of leftovers, too. And um yeah, I think sometimes you just have to be OK with mystery. And well, like, yeah, yeah, like like we don't understand everything.

17:40.13
nathanpile
Yeah.

17:44.33
Kevin Shock
And and yet it doesn't. ah For me, I think the thing is that mystery doesn't change how God is with us and how God interacts with us. there there is There's a mystery about how certain things happen.

18:01.48
Kevin Shock
There's mystery about things that Jesus is talking about. But where there is no mystery is the amount of love that God has for humankind and the lengths that God goes to to show that love to humankind.

18:16.20
nathanpile
Yeah.

18:17.52
Kevin Shock
That's not mysterious. And that's even evident here right in this reading is that, you know, ah he's giving his flesh and blood so that his followers can remain in him and he and them.

18:30.79
nathanpile
Yeah

18:31.42
Kevin Shock
Like that's, yeah. It's pretty powerful.

18:35.74
nathanpile
Yeah, and and and for me, as you were talking, the thing that came up about about mystery is awe, like the the young man, as you were describing.

18:44.21
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

18:47.33
nathanpile
There's a piece, I think, of mystery that helps us to be in awe of God.

18:51.92
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

18:52.48
nathanpile
um and And so that I don't want to take that out of out of mystery either. like I want the awe part of the mystery in the midst of our our own questioning and trying to understand, and but I want that awe piece of mystery as well.

19:11.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

19:11.37
nathanpile
All right, do you want to do our second time?

19:19.07
Kevin Shock
Yes, I would. All right, ah from John the sixth chapter. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. Then the Jews debated among themselves asking, how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, I assure you, unless you eat the flesh of the human one and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day. My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them. As the living Father sent me and and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me lives because of me.

20:08.46
Kevin Shock
This is the bread that came down from heaven. It isn't like the bread your ancestors ate, and then they died. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

20:21.66
nathanpile
um Because ah of the the mystery of this passage and the the parts of it that I don't fully ah understand of what's the depth of all of its meaning. um I think the two words that came out to me as as you were reading it this time through um was, I'm gonna eat to live. um

20:54.72
nathanpile
And I think the other word was remains. I think you said somewhere in there that that um also kind of struck me of of, but eat and live and remain.

20:58.50
Kevin Shock
Mm.

21:04.91
nathanpile
um were And so to say that is that ah that if if this meal the the that Christ has set aside for us, um this meal has been set aside for us so that we can partake, be a part of the, of the the you know, again, um here at camp, we do family style. So there's something about sitting around the table together and sharing a meal um that's important. And a couple of weeks ago, one of the kids put on the evaluation that he loved that we sat at a tables and ate family style.

21:44.59
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

21:44.79
nathanpile
Like he's like, this is something my family doesn't do anymore.

21:46.30
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

21:48.89
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah.

21:49.21
nathanpile
Um, yeah, right. It breaks your heart to read it, but it, but it was, um, but there's something about coming and eating together as community again, where two or three are gathered together in God's name.

21:52.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

22:01.66
nathanpile
So it can be a small community. It can be a big community. Um, but something about eating, um, nourishes us both in the, um

22:12.99
nathanpile
calories, caloric intake physically that need to happen, but also there's something that happens in the meal as the community gathers. um

22:20.53
Kevin Shock
Mm

22:22.82
nathanpile
And that in that nourishment, all of it that happens, there there is life that comes from it for me. And so um recognizing than those that those practices of of of eating together um and specifically eating the meal that is being set aside here, being lifted up and saying, this is this bread and wine is a part of this meal, but eating the meal and and and and then allowing that nourishment to to

22:49.67
Kevin Shock
-hmm.

23:02.96
nathanpile
Send me out to to live life ah You know and and last week we talked about um That living of life over that you're living in love that practicing well, you know, that's that's the piece that that then comes out of that that nourishment That I'm I'm led to go out and live in that love um That I'm seeing that I've watched God do be a part of kind of a thing so um yeah, I think that listening this time those were the where the two words that kind of really stuck out to me was that I do need to be a part of the meal.

23:39.33
nathanpile
and need to be and Eating is a part of the of of what Christ is calling us to.

23:44.85
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

23:47.64
nathanpile
and um you know and and you're In our lifetime, Kevin, um the Lutheran Church has gone through a shift of moving from um only holy days do we have communion to all Sundays do we have communion.

24:02.93
Kevin Shock
Oh, gosh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

24:06.46
nathanpile
And a passage like this, I think reinforces that you eat the meal.

24:14.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

24:14.64
nathanpile
When you're in community, you eat the meal. And and so, you know, um Sister ter Teresa's community had meal every day. There are communities that can that are that live together and are able to do that. um We don't do that at camp at Sequinota. We do try to do communion um at the end of our of our weeks together, but we don't do it every day. We live in community. We could probably think about ways that we might do that in other ways. but

24:43.72
nathanpile
But there are intentional communities that make sure that it is a part of, ever like they wake up and maybe it's the first meal that they have is that meal, I don't know.

24:52.89
nathanpile
Depends on the community, but that there are communities that have made it a part of everyday life.

25:00.80
nathanpile
You know, and I don't live in those kinds of communities, but but it is important for me to to have communion weekly. um It has become, you know, when I was a kid, it wasn't a thing, like it happened again on on holy days only and not on every Sunday. And slowly the church over my lifetime has has been able to kind of adopt more fully that idea that communion every Sunday is acceptable. And and it is acceptable. It's that our traditions had to be.

25:37.29
nathanpile
Some people had to be convinced of it. and others Others were on board. you know just ah It's a part of human change.

25:41.98
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

25:43.06
nathanpile
We had to make change within our tradition that that that change could occur.

25:45.55
Kevin Shock
Right.

25:47.27
nathanpile
And so in my lifetime, that has been something that has that most of our Lutheran churches have kind of lived through to do to accomplish.

25:56.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and there's and there still is a varied um belief and practice on, yeah, on on how often it's supposed to happen and when it's supposed to happen and how it's not how it's supposed to happen, but yeah.

26:12.48
nathanpile
yeah

26:13.07
Kevin Shock
um

26:16.97
Kevin Shock
Well, right. And that's that's the other thing that's mysterious, Nathan, is that we realize that different people believe different things. even even people who are um Even people who are raised in the same tradition, you know it it it all depends on who they learn from and what they learn and

26:34.04
nathanpile
Yeah. Mhm.

26:40.07
Kevin Shock
their own, kind of the other factors that influence the way that they think, and yeah.

26:47.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's it's different in different congregations, so.

26:56.46
Kevin Shock
I Yeah, I my my answer actually, I pretty much already talked about it, I think. I this is This passage is leading me toward sitting in the mystery of God a little bit more. um it's ah yeah it I mean, I'll you know I'll be honest, this this passage and makes me a little bit uncomfortable.

27:16.13
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

27:24.36
Kevin Shock
And um and if we keep if we were to keep reading, which all of you listeners can keep reading, We learn right after this that um there were many of Jesus's disciples who decided it at this point that they weren't going to follow him anymore.

27:44.13
Kevin Shock
And and the 12 still remain ah because ah Simon Peter speaks the famous words that if you're if you're in a tradition like ours, we sing pretty often. ah Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Or in this translation, it says um it says something more along the lines of where are we supposed to go? ah Because Jesus asks them, do do you also want to go away?

28:15.08
Kevin Shock
Do you also want to quit following me?

28:17.18
Kevin Shock
And Simon Peter responds, where where are we supposed to go? Yeah. you're You're the one who is talking about eternal life.

28:27.06
Kevin Shock
You you have you have these words for us. um We can't find it anywhere else.

28:32.80
nathanpile
yeah

28:32.87
Kevin Shock
so And you know it maybe be ah maybe it would be helpful. We don't read that part in our in the way that this reading is split up. I don't I don't know if we read it the following week or not in for the gospel, but in any case, um we I mean it you know I I think it would be good to have that context because Peter hones in on, at least for him, what is important in in all that Jesus is saying. There are times whenever Peter says, well, how are we supposed to do this? Or how is this going to happen? or

29:13.91
Kevin Shock
Um, why do we have to do this or, you know, or I'm not going to let this happen. This thing that you're saying has to happen. I'm not going to let it happen. Um, but here Peter backs off of all that how and why kind of wondering to simply a statement of faith that Jesus is the one who is about eternal life.

29:40.93
nathanpile
Mm.

29:41.80
Kevin Shock
Jesus is the one who's offering something that no one else can offer them. And um and and and they're seeing by the signs that he has shown them that ah that he's the one who can uphold this promise. So so Peter, in this scenario, and for and and thanks be to God that he does this, Peter doesn't doesn't focus on the things that are not helpful to focus on.

30:14.42
Kevin Shock
He just, he, he simply rests in this, in the idea that this is, this is what this is. I know who Jesus is. I know what he's telling us. And even if I don't understand everything, it's good for me to cling closely to him.

30:34.36
nathanpile
Yeah.

30:35.23
Kevin Shock
So yeah.

30:36.62
nathanpile
Um, and we do the week after this reading will, will go from 56.

30:39.34
Kevin Shock
Oh, it does.

30:43.13
nathanpile
So this week is 51 to 58. Um, next week we'll do 56 to 69.

30:46.13
Kevin Shock
Okay, okay, all right.

30:49.07
nathanpile
so

30:54.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah, we get into some stuff there too, where Jesus starts to talk about how there's gonna be one who betrays him. But even but even that one is the, ah Jesus has chosen.

30:59.44
nathanpile
Mm. Right.

31:05.53
Kevin Shock
and and ah And even though Jesus knows that someone's gonna betray him, He still feeds them all with his flesh and blood at the same meal.

31:16.15
nathanpile
Same meal, right?

31:18.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't, he doesn't withhold it from anybody, which in some way is much more important than what exactly, you know, what happens to the molecules of the bread and wine whenever it, you know, whenever the priest or the pastor says the words over it.

31:21.90
nathanpile
Right.

31:35.82
nathanpile
Sure.

31:37.61
Kevin Shock
So, well, and there's, and there's even,

31:38.49
nathanpile
Right.

31:43.16
Kevin Shock
There's even difference of opinion it among Lutherans as to what, is it is it the saying of the words that makes the bread and one communion? Is it the gathering of the people? Is it all of those things combined? I mean, this, yeah, it's, there's there's some difference of opinion on that.

32:03.67
nathanpile
There is, and um that's why I live in the woods.

32:08.97
Kevin Shock
Nah, no.

32:14.02
Kevin Shock
That's not why you live in the woods.

32:14.08
nathanpile
No, I love the woods too, but but some some of it is.

32:18.00
Kevin Shock
I know, I know.

32:21.03
nathanpile
Because like I do think it is, for all of those reasons um that you've kind of talked about, like we debate about things, and to me again, it's part of the mystery. Who does mr mysterious things? God does. And when God does things that are mysterious, yes, we should be in all of them and and be amazed by them, but we don't have to, like, we can wrestle with them, but the idea that we have to get everything right just seems like, and I know there's other people different than me, and so they like to have that debate on and on and on and on, and I'm glad they want to have that debate. It can be their debate.

33:00.82
nathanpile
um

33:03.58
nathanpile
Like I eventually I get lost in the debate.

33:07.48
Kevin Shock
yeah

33:07.83
nathanpile
For me, for me the mystery um um and the practice is enough.

33:07.99
Kevin Shock
yeah

33:16.10
nathanpile
yeah There was definitely a time when I wanted to have the, to to you know dig down deeper and deeper and deeper and have deeper conversations around it. I'm now of the age that I'm I'm I am content in my own understanding of faith

33:31.15
nathanpile
that I trust that if God is doing something, God is going to do it.

33:37.68
nathanpile
However God needs to do it, whether it's through somebody's words or through the elements or through the community or through all of those things added together in one moment in time.

33:39.90
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

33:48.49
Kevin Shock
Right.

33:48.99
nathanpile
um So it's mystery, it's mystery.

33:49.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

33:52.66
Kevin Shock
Right. It's mystery.

33:57.90
nathanpile
Um, there was something else that you said that I wanted to, um, come back to, it but I don't remember for the life of me now what it was. Um, because in the midst of our conversation, I unplugged my headphones and then became silent.

34:12.51
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

34:14.41
nathanpile
Every, the world got quiet.

34:16.07
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

34:17.05
nathanpile
So, uh, no,

34:17.70
Kevin Shock
I don't know how I should feel about that. So did you purposefully unplug your headphones in the middle of what I was saying?

34:22.53
nathanpile
no, no, my, my, um,

34:23.02
Kevin Shock
Oh, okay. Okay. Good. Good.

34:26.10
nathanpile
my Belly caught the cord on the desk and pulled them out of my head, ear, my ears, my earphones.

34:30.47
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

34:33.56
nathanpile
So, so maybe it's God's sign of saying, eat less, Nathan. Um, I don't know.

34:45.73
Kevin Shock
but But not of flesh and blood.

34:47.67
nathanpile
But, well, but, but Jesus is flesh and bud.

34:49.79
Kevin Shock
I mean, Jesus is flesh and blood.

34:52.57
nathanpile
Maybe, maybe there's, I'm supposed to eat more of that. I don't know. So.

34:58.22
nathanpile
We'll add We'll add it to the unknown. so

35:03.57
Kevin Shock
It is your turn to read.

35:04.28
nathanpile
ah um Is it my turn to read? All right, my turn to read. Third time through. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

35:31.67
nathanpile
Then the Jews debated among themselves asking, how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, I assure you, unless you eat the flesh of the whole human one and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day. My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in them as the living father sent me and I live because of the father. So whoever eats me lives because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven.

36:20.41
nathanpile
It isn't like the bread your ancestors ate, and then they died. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

36:32.75
nathanpile
Well, Kevin, um how can this man give us his flesh to eat? Let's join the debate of the Jewish people. And how can how can this man give us his flesh to eat?

36:43.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

36:49.86
Kevin Shock
I I don't know how helpful this question is, but it was the question that I i wanted to ask. um I think um I'm just going to say simply, be ah how can this man give us his flesh to eat?

36:57.80
nathanpile
And I'm glad you get the answer it first.

37:04.67
Kevin Shock
Because he has the will and the power to do so.

37:09.76
nathanpile
Hmm.

37:09.96
Kevin Shock
That's how. I' and that's Again, I'm not I'm not getting caught up in the like the the details of how sacrifice or molecules or any of that other stuff works.

37:22.43
Kevin Shock
um' I'm saying he has he has the will and the power to do it. he can As Jesus says elsewhere, is it in the Gospel of John? I think it is that I have the power to lay down my life and I have the power to take it back up again.

37:37.93
nathanpile
Pick it up. Yeah.

37:39.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah. and um So he can do it. and And it's clear when we read this that he wants to do it. He has the will to do it.

37:49.12
nathanpile
Yeah.

37:49.19
Kevin Shock
um The bread that I will give, and I think that that's the um ah the bread that I will give is my flesh. I think that that's what the people who are debating, I think that that's what they're focusing on. the Perhaps the better place to focus in that sentence is what comes in between those two statements, and that is for the life of the world.

38:11.55
Kevin Shock
The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

38:11.60
nathanpile
Hmm.

38:15.17
Kevin Shock
Jesus wants us to have this so that we all may have life. And when I say all, I mean all, cosmos, the whole, the entire universe, every human being, every living creature, every plant, and and the waters, the oceans, the the mountains, the valleys,

38:21.32
nathanpile
Yeah.

38:28.54
nathanpile
Yeah.

38:38.13
Kevin Shock
everything that God has made. Jesus wants life for everything.

38:47.57
Kevin Shock
So that's that's my simple answer to a difficult question.

38:53.75
nathanpile
Well, and but I appreciate um ah ah A, the the simplicity of your answer.

38:59.22
nathanpile
um my the you know My answer to it was is is the same thing. It's just you know you got it boiled down to like six words, which was great. um mine Mine was not going to be six words. mine My answer to your question or to the question ah was because he desires to do so, which is the same thing as what you're so talking about, Hill. here is that he has the will and the ability to do so.

39:27.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

39:28.63
nathanpile
um Because he is the human one, the Son of Man, the Son of God, um he has the ability to do anything um that is that is in union with with that is and with with union with God.

39:38.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

39:47.52
nathanpile
the

39:50.61
nathanpile
and so like but But he has this deep desire for the world to have life.

40:01.65
nathanpile
And so that is where the the the why, I guess, or the, you know, ah yeah To me, the more important question is, ah why does the why does the man want to give us his flesh deed as opposed to how can he give the... Because you know you know I get the how, what they're asking there.

40:17.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

40:21.16
nathanpile
But but the you know why is is is the peace that God wants us to have life.

40:21.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

40:30.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

40:31.34
nathanpile
And again, a part of John to have it abundantly. um to to be to be rich and full and going back to last week's readings ah that it be about and and centered in love because that's what God has for us and that is what is at the root of why Jesus wants this meal, this flesh and blood to be ours is to give us life. And so

41:07.47
nathanpile
you know, God, because of God's desire, because of Jesus's desire, is why this is that this the thing is has been brought forth, why this meal has been shared with the disciples, and then will be shared with all of the generations of of of God's disciples that will follow hereafter.

41:37.98
nathanpile
as a part of that, whether it's happening weekly or on holy days in Catholic churches or Lutheran churches and Baptist churches, you know, like this meal is intended for all and for the living of life and for this gift of eternal life, which again has its own

41:52.91
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

42:06.42
nathanpile
obscure mysteries to what that you know Yes, it means being with God forever in life, eternal life. ah But what does it look like and feel like like, the number of movies and books that have been written about what that is what eternal life is, is countless, as creative as anyone can be.

42:15.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

42:25.04
Kevin Shock
Mmhmm.

42:27.53
nathanpile
Because I don't think we know that mystery still is something that is being kept from our eyes. We don't know what that is yet.

42:38.30
nathanpile
but that it is, we're told that that is a part of this gift, is that that that mysterious gift of eternal life is also a part of this gift of of flesh and blood.

42:56.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah, um yeah I had had some and some thoughts as you were talking, but I think you either wrapped them up or my mind moved on to different things. and yeah yeah Yeah, this is, I mean, i yeah, one one place that people have debated

43:07.59
nathanpile
Mm

43:16.30
Kevin Shock
throughout the centuries is whether this meal is for everyone. um and And I think that you know the the church will, like our church practices um what we call open communion, but does not practice radically open communion.

43:33.76
nathanpile
-hmm

43:36.49
Kevin Shock
And that we so we say, we uphold that this meal is for all baptized Christians. It doesn't matter what their

43:43.89
nathanpile
Yes.

43:46.03
Kevin Shock
what their religious affiliation is, it doesn't matter what their denomination, they're they're they're welcome at the tables that we preside at. um But that's ah that's a limit when we say all baptized Christians. It it excludes people of other faiths or no faith. it you know i mean it So anyway, that's and I'm not advocating one way or the other, I'm just saying that there's the human the human rules for how to uphold order in the church, and I don't think it's bad for us to uphold order in the church in a general sense,

44:26.81
Kevin Shock
um

44:30.05
Kevin Shock
do exclude some people, but that doesn't necessarily, well, now I'm talking myself into a corner. Even though we do that, I would say that most people in, Most people that I know in our tradition would say that God's love, Jesus's life is for everyone. So I guess that's another question of how do we reconcile the two?

44:59.50
nathanpile
Hmm.

45:02.51
Kevin Shock
I mean, I certainly believe that. I believe that God's life, God's love is for everybody.

45:06.73
nathanpile
Right.

45:07.23
Kevin Shock
um I don't think of that as particular. I I see the communion meal as something that sustains the followers of Jesus um and keeps them in him and he in them. um So I don't know what good it does for someone who is, who does not trust in Jesus to partake in the meal. But then I also asked the question, would someone who doesn't trust in Jesus even want to come to the meal? I mean that, you know,

45:44.67
Kevin Shock
but That's a question for me. I but that That's also to say, and I know you're this way too, Nathan.

45:47.17
nathanpile
Right.

45:51.06
Kevin Shock
I don't like, people I don't know, I don't ask for their baptismal credentials whenever they come up to the table.

45:56.70
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

45:57.25
Kevin Shock
If someone comes up with a hand open, it means that they want it. And if they want it, they must at least understand that there's some value in it because all the people around them want it too.

46:07.21
nathanpile
Right.

46:07.54
Kevin Shock
I think that's how it is with kids.

46:09.26
nathanpile
Yep.

46:09.58
Kevin Shock
ah So if they want it, There's nothing that Jesus says that makes me think that it's up to me to deny it to them if they wanted.

46:21.54
nathanpile
Right.

46:22.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:23.40
nathanpile
Yeah.

46:24.50
Kevin Shock
So I don't think we're called to be gatekeepers necessarily.

46:24.86
nathanpile
Yeah, I definitely, I'm the same way. To me, it feels a little bit like I'm a gatekeeper. If I keep it away from somebody that opens up their hand, um, like, and I don't want to be a gatekeeper. That that's something absolutely.

46:38.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:38.20
nathanpile
Yeah. Yeah. And so, but that, again, that's part of our tradition. You know, I couldn't have communion until I was in second grade or something like that when I was a kid.

46:47.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I was in fifth grade.

46:47.60
nathanpile
Um, So, um you know, had to have first communion classes and and and so forth before. and there And then there was a special service that we did that in. But at the same time, I'm i'm with you.

47:01.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

47:01.50
nathanpile
If a little kid puts their hand out, boy, it's it's hard for me not to say, for them to see, hey, everybody else is a part of this. I want to be a part of it too.

47:11.62
Kevin Shock
yeah

47:11.70
nathanpile
um And, and what that looks like. Um, like I want to be a part of whatever one else is having. And like for me to say, sorry, I can't give you this. Um, it's a hard thing for me to do. So, um, you know, and, and, uh, because it is, it is gift gifted to us.

47:25.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

47:32.25
nathanpile
It is gift. Therefore. Why, why aren't we giving it it away lavishly? Um, so.

47:42.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah we I mean, we talked in last week's episode about ah love is a gift. ah The way that Jesus lives among us is a gift. Yeah.

47:54.52
nathanpile
No.

47:59.18
Kevin Shock
Well, any ah any other thoughts, Nathan, about this wildly confusing text?

48:03.81
nathanpile
No, I, um...

48:09.58
nathanpile
No, I don't have any, the the the piece that you had also kind of mentioned is also a struggle for me of, of and and as I, in the community that I serve in, we welcome staff of different traditions. And so there are times that they feel like they can't eat because of what they've been taught in their tradition.

48:29.07
Kevin Shock
Mm

48:29.38
nathanpile
um And even some that don't believe um like because they don't serve as they they don't live as Christians. um They live as a in and a different faith tradition community. um And so, you know, a tradition that communion has always been about for me of is that we are all together when we have this meal.

48:55.29
Kevin Shock
-hmm

48:56.26
nathanpile
Now there's people that don't want to be a part of that meal. And so how do we find that unity again together? Because it's not around that meal.

49:03.33
Kevin Shock
Mm

49:04.21
nathanpile
um And so how else what are other ways that we can find unity together um and what that looks like? And so the this summer, more so than any other summer in the years that I've served at camps, it's been something that I've wrestled with and will continue to wrestle with well into the fall, probably, I'm thinking about um this thing that has always been a sign of unity to me in our tradition.

49:29.33
Kevin Shock
-hmm

49:35.98
nathanpile
has felt like it's been something that has gotten in our way as a community, a staff community this summer. And so what does that look like?

49:43.35
Kevin Shock
Oh.

49:44.29
nathanpile
in in Despite that, I still do a blessing for those individuals that meets their faith, where their faith is at. It still doesn't feel like it is something that brings us together.

50:04.67
Kevin Shock
So it's their their choice to not commune.

50:08.40
nathanpile
Sure, yeah, absolutely it is.

50:09.84
Kevin Shock
Because of because of the way that they grew up the way the faith the faith tradition that they were raised in, yeah.

50:14.32
nathanpile
Yes. Yeah, yeah, so I've got a, we have multiple faith traditions on staff this summer.

50:20.68
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

50:21.07
nathanpile
um And so that has made it, like ah it, it feels like the only time it is on display of how different we are from each other is when we would gather for communion.

50:41.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

50:41.45
nathanpile
not that Not that we don't see it in other places and spaces, but to me it has been profoundly distracting of of the thing that i that I have held as sacred that has helped to be a unifying thing for for years as a community. It feels a little bit more separate.

51:06.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yep. Yeah, I get that.

51:09.80
nathanpile
so

51:10.17
Kevin Shock
I am ah The question that also raises for me is when the community is more homogenous, do people just do it because they're just going through the motions? And so there's ah there's a unity that it may not be true unity, it may be

51:23.05
nathanpile
Well, sure, sure.

51:28.58
Kevin Shock
you know, just unity, uh, surface level unity. So, so this, this, I, yeah, I mean that, yeah, i don't I don't think that that's a, I mean, I see why it feels like a shortcoming among your staff or your community there.

51:32.83
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

51:45.25
Kevin Shock
Um, but it's also like it, it points out real differences that exist in the world, probably in, in a way that, um, that people don't often get the chance to see because we are in,

51:51.27
nathanpile
Sure, it does, absolutely does.

51:57.68
Kevin Shock
We're in silos.

51:59.42
nathanpile
Right, right.

52:00.38
Kevin Shock
So, so if it, yeah, I I mean, I hope that I know that you will continue to wrestle with it.

52:02.37
nathanpile
Yeah.

52:09.57
Kevin Shock
And I hope that there might be other people on staff who will continue to wrestle with it too. I mean, it would be good for them to do that, I think.

52:15.76
nathanpile
Sure, sure. Absolutely. and And there's been some decent conversations with people, because again, from our from from my Lutheran Christian lens,

52:17.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

52:28.38
nathanpile
the way I look at the world, um it's gift. And so I'm happy to give it.

52:34.77
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

52:35.61
nathanpile
But at the same time, I don't want to make you uncomfortable to receive a gift that's, that you've don't, you know, because of the the traditions of where they're at, they have been taught not to take it or, or whatever.

52:52.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yep.

52:55.07
nathanpile
So, um,

52:55.71
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

52:58.08
nathanpile
Yeah, so it is. I um This conversation actually I think is helping me to recognize that we're gonna do something different this week. So, know because this will be our last Sunday together coming up.

53:11.54
Kevin Shock
So, um...

53:12.36
nathanpile
And so I wanna make sure that we have, that we end in unity and not, which my Lutheran Christian side kind of is like, oh no, we're not gonna do this thing that is,

53:25.40
Kevin Shock
Mm.

53:26.17
nathanpile
But at the same time, it's not about me, it's about this community. And there's other ways that we can talk about God's love and being a part of God's love than sharing in this meal.

53:35.16
Kevin Shock
Mm.

53:38.68
nathanpile
So I do think that there's a part of that that, like I still want them to partake of God, but I don't want our traditions to be the thing that divides us on that on that morning.

53:55.25
nathanpile
So, yeah,

53:55.84
Kevin Shock
Yep, yep.

53:59.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, that's I. Yeah, it's this is I think you just gave a real life example for how this the struggle in texts like this lives is lived out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.

54:10.44
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

54:11.44
Kevin Shock
it is ah It's a struggle, but I think it's good. Again, like mystery, it's good for the community to sit in it and not. Yeah, but it's also I appreciate. um I know that you have you have a way with your staff that is very caring and meets them where they are, um which I think is invaluable when it comes to supervising staff in a in a of that age and in a role like that, um because it models for them how they're supposed to be with the people that they're taking care of.

54:44.05
nathanpile
Right.

54:50.38
Kevin Shock
ah

54:53.09
Kevin Shock
so So I appreciate that this is you're you're considering how you might take on a little bit of that discomfort for yourself ah this last Sunday in order to in order to yeah give give other people who may have been experiencing some discomfort a little bit of space to be more fully themselves or or who knows, maybe they will be challenged too.

55:03.42
nathanpile
Yeah. Yeah.

55:21.85
Kevin Shock
you know that yeah

55:22.75
nathanpile
Sure, sure, sure.

55:23.86
Kevin Shock
Do you never know?

55:24.68
nathanpile
Well, I know some of them have been challenged because we've had conversations about, well, what does this mean?

55:27.47
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yep.

55:28.53
nathanpile
And and this is what I've been told, but you're saying something different. So what does that mean?

55:34.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right. Right.

55:35.76
nathanpile
And so just to be able to say that, you know, I'm not too here to say that one tradition is better than any other.

55:36.14
Kevin Shock
Right.

55:43.71
nathanpile
It's, it's a human tradition that is is trying to make sense of God. And so unfortunately in our traditions, we divide ourselves up a little bit more than God, I think even intense. And so, and so how do we, how do we find the unity together? as this as this community for the for this last the service together, time together.

56:10.55
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

56:11.78
nathanpile
so um yeah yeah yep but There is a living in mystery and doing it within community is is tough and well has been ah probably a struggle for ah

56:22.66
Kevin Shock
Yep, yeah, yeah.

56:28.91
nathanpile
millennia and will continue to be as we because we are different. But as you said earlier, all means all. And so I have no doubt God god has already envisioned what the last final feast looks like um and has made preparations for it um because of our humanness

56:47.82
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

56:55.04
nathanpile
and fracturedness of how we fracture ourselves from one another. We yet can't see that that that mystery that is to come.

57:03.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

57:06.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and I and I'm glad you said that too, because that that vision that we get from, particularly from Isaiah, um that all nations will gather around this feast. um that's it's it's It's nice flowery stuff to talk about, but when we consider the reality of what it will what it will take, it takes on different meaning.

57:26.28
nathanpile
Right.

57:27.56
Kevin Shock
so yeah All right, well, let's ah give other people some easier texts to think about.

57:27.81
nathanpile
Yeah, it does. Yeah.

57:35.60
nathanpile
ah

57:36.19
Kevin Shock
um while they're considering these these, maybe these aren't easier, I don't know, but ah in any case. ah Additional text from Proverbs chapter nine, verses one through six, invited to dine at wisdom's feast. That's a good one, wisdom calling out to the townspeople. ah From Psalm 34, verses nine through 14, those who seek the Lord lack nothing that is good.

58:04.03
Kevin Shock
That's a good sentiment.

58:05.38
nathanpile
Mmhmm.

58:05.45
Kevin Shock
ah Ephesians 5, 15 to 20 filled with the spirit, saying thanks to God. And then we have our semi-continuous readings, our large part of ah Hebrew scripture from 1 Kings chapter two and chapter three. So it's 1 Kings chapter two, verses 10 through 12 and chapter three, verses three through 14. That's Solomon's prayer for wisdom. And then Psalm 111, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. ah I hope, I know that I will continue to reflect on this conversation and on this text in the days to come. And I hope that ah you listeners and you Nathan are able to do the same. And we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

58:56.31
nathanpile
And peace.