Episode 39: Joshua 24:1-2a, 14-18

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What are the gods you need to put away?

Additional texts:
Psalm 34:15-22
Ephesians 6:10-20
John 6:56-69
1 Kings 8:[1, 6, 10-11] 22-30, 41-43
Psalm 84

Transcript

00:00:02.34
nathanpile
Well, welcome back ah this whatever end of the summer day as we are about tending our faith and tending our hearts. um As always, I'm joined with my buddy, Kevin. um We're gonna be looking at Joshua, the 24th chapter, verses one and two, and verses through 14 through 18.

00:00:40.40
nathanpile
ah Kevin and I will be reading from the NRSV updated edition. um As always, we encourage you to follow along with a text that you might have close by or um if you're using an iPad or a computer or iPhone or a phone and you can go to Bible Gateway and follow along with the N-R-S-V-U-E as we go as well. Our three questions, two which are always familiar to us. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text and toward what is God calling you in this text? Kevin, i um I've thought this many times since we've put these questions up, but I don't think I've ever said it before I get to the third question. I've always appreciated these two questions and they've actually really helped me

00:01:31.76
nathanpile
in my sermon preparation um significantly over the last time year and a half, year and how many ever months we've done this, year and eight months, um in that um just in getting that first impression of the text of how important that is for me now, even as I think about and write sermons. so I don't know why that popped into my head today, but it did, so I'm happy to share it.

00:02:01.01
nathanpile
um The third question, yeah yeah no it is it is a significant tool in my tool belt now of what word, phrase, or image has struck me about this text and then toward what do I feel God is calling me.

00:02:02.31
Kevin Shock
That's good.

00:02:16.95
nathanpile
in this text. Those are have been um significant. I always ask a question similar to that second one as I was doing sermon preparation, but because this has become really a um a regular practice for you and I,

00:02:33.07
nathanpile
those questions are always at the tip of my tongue now when I do Bible study plus when I do sermon preparation.

00:02:33.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:41.76
nathanpile
It really has become a part of the way I look at the Bible, which is, I i find to be very helpful. So um thank you to those that um found them and used them and shared that insight with I guess Kevin was the one that knew um that Finney Ridge had used them.

00:03:02.43
nathanpile
And my guess is that there's been some form of these questions for generations um before then.

00:03:06.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. I think that there has been some form of them for generations, but yeah, pastor, pastor Paul Hoffman was, and I don't even know if it was exactly this, these two questions, but something similar to it, um, was, yeah, it was the pastor at Finney Ridge who, uh, did this, the three question format with the adult catechumens, the people who were new to the faith, who were learning about the faith.

00:03:19.38
nathanpile
Yeah, yeah.

00:03:31.60
nathanpile
Now, so the third question for us this week, what are the gods you need to put away? Hmm. Well, that will be good talking.

00:03:47.72
nathanpile
As always, everyone, Kevin and I have been talking for hours before we hit the record button.

00:03:51.53
Kevin Shock
the ah That, that will be good talking.

00:03:53.57
nathanpile
Hours. um

00:03:56.20
Kevin Shock
Yes, it will. Yeah.

00:03:58.26
nathanpile
it's it's ah So having known what we and I have already talked about, that question wasn't on our list, and yet we talked about it in some different ways.

00:04:08.68
nathanpile
So um yeah, and some more forms we should talk about it.

00:04:08.99
Kevin Shock
In some form we talked about it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:04:12.09
nathanpile
so Kevin and I did our end of the summer check-in because it's getting towards me the end of the summer.

00:04:12.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:04:18.04
nathanpile
so

00:04:19.03
Kevin Shock
yeah um Yeah, so here's some information about ah Nathan and myself. ah We are men married to women in financially stable households, white in our late 40s college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:04:46.14
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think as you engage scripture. As Nathan said, we are reading from Joshua 24, one and two, and then 14 through 18.

00:05:06.80
Kevin Shock
Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summoned the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel, and they presented themselves before God. And Joshua said to all the people, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, long ago your ancestors, Terah and his sons Abraham and Nahor lived beyond the Euphrates and served other gods. Now therefore revere the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness.

00:05:35.27
Kevin Shock
Put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river and in Egypt and serve the Lord. Now, if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve. Whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the river or the gods of the Amorites and whose land you are living, but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. Then the people answered, far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods.

00:06:02.39
Kevin Shock
For it is the God, the Lord our God, who brought us and our ancestors up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight. He protected us all along the way, along all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. And the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the Lord, for he is our God.

00:06:30.78
Kevin Shock
If you are reading or meeting with a group or another person, you can ah pause the podcast and ask these questions of each other. um Nathan, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

00:06:49.53
nathanpile
The word was sincerity um it's down in in verse 14 there um and as you were reading um and maybe even revere the Lord, but revere the Lord was more of a negative. I don't know why it felt more like a negative piece, but um revere the Lord and serve him in sincerity. um And that sincerity piece kind of sparked me and got me in my own kind of head thinking about, well, what does you know what does it mean to um you know be sincere? And of course, you know I think about letters, we sign letters,

00:07:29.87
nathanpile
you know Sincerely and your name.

00:07:34.79
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:07:35.00
nathanpile
um you know um So that idea idea there of of sincerity and what does it how does it play off in our world, I think um the word we use a lot right now is authenticity. um But I think sincerity can be the same and Play the same way um you know so you ah you know am I being authentic in in the things that I'm saying the way I'm living my life. um All of those pieces kinda stick out to me and so I wonder.

00:08:12.76
nathanpile
about that, but here it's paired with that word, serve Him in sincerity. So serve God in a way that is that is sincere, that is authentic. And um some of this goes to our earlier conversation. um ah the the The real need for that in our lives as God's people today. So how do I live an authentic Christian life? how do i How do I live an authentic life but being informed in the ways of God so that my actions also reflect the ways of God?

00:08:51.84
nathanpile
um And so that part of it ah kind of stuck out to me here today as well as I was listening to you read this passage of of you know how do I live faithfully? How do I live authentically?

00:09:13.25
nathanpile
and And here it's paired with that idea of serve, and so living living into God's ways. um and And what does that look like? and And one of the pieces that I continue to wrestle with in my call, in in the work that I do, is how can I be authentic and sincere, and yet also tell the truth when I think somebody's saying something that's you know, BS. How do I be sincere in that? And loving and caring, if I'm going to say that I'm doing this in and and the love of Christ, of living as a human being with other human beings. so I'm going to live life in a way that I'm doing that. How do I how do I bring truth to a setting set a setting or or an honesty to the setting? How do I be sincere?

00:10:12.68
nathanpile
um

00:10:15.94
nathanpile
and not just be kind in the moment. like I'm not going to say anything. I'll just let it ah just let let kindness be the thing that guides me right now instead of being of saying, I think what you're saying might

00:10:21.39
Kevin Shock
Mm.

00:10:31.73
nathanpile
might have some truth to it here, but I also think some of what you're saying in this area might not be. so And so being able to be sincere in serving God, living out my life with God and with the community that I'm immersed in,

00:10:50.15
nathanpile
um

00:10:54.43
nathanpile
Yeah, there's so there's challenges to that right now. I think in in our world I think we're called to do it absolutely, and I think that may be part of the reason why it has stuck out to me here as you were reading it. um Of how do I? Serve in sincerity, how do I live faithfully in authentic ways?

00:11:15.37
nathanpile
um

00:11:18.15
nathanpile
In the context of our world right now, um because really the only person I have any control over is me, and so um If that's the case, how do I do that? And I'd love but love the people in the community who at the same time sometimes just makes me so frustrated that I What when I scream at the top of my lungs at them and that doesn't that doesn't do it either so Yeah

00:11:49.20
Kevin Shock
I think it makes it more difficult to do that because we don't live in, um, there's just not as much trust in the world.

00:11:58.51
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:11:58.59
Kevin Shock
Uh, and that social fabric has been ripped. Um, I think that, yeah, there are times when someone's saying something that it's just, it's easier for us to just remain silent whenever perhaps we should.

00:12:17.78
Kevin Shock
call it out, ah yeah the language, the behavior, whatever. um and And yet for me, there's also a balance of calling people out that you're not in a relationship with doesn't really do any good.

00:12:35.90
nathanpile
Hmm. That's true.

00:12:38.54
Kevin Shock
I think of I think of online conversations.

00:12:38.57
nathanpile
Sure.

00:12:43.42
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:12:46.05
nathanpile
Yeah, I don't. I yeah yeah I don't.

00:12:47.25
Kevin Shock
trying trying to, you don't, you don't engage in them.

00:12:51.72
nathanpile
I don't spend a lot of time in those spaces.

00:12:53.98
Kevin Shock
No, no.

00:12:55.35
nathanpile
I'm not a good social media person.

00:12:55.56
Kevin Shock
ah

00:12:57.39
nathanpile
Um, as I, uh, I don't necessarily wear it as a badge of honor. It's just a thing that.

00:13:03.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:13:04.84
nathanpile
Like we use social media at camp, but everyone in this office will tell you that I'm terrible at it um because I don't spend time on it.

00:13:10.38
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:13:12.68
nathanpile
And so when I see something on Facebook, which is very rare to begin with. Um, but when I see something, I very rarely, well, never make a comment about it because to me it's,

00:13:26.92
nathanpile
It doesn't seem like a real space. And I know that's not that's downplaying what it is for other people, because other people find community and connection in it.

00:13:36.29
Kevin Shock
absolutely yeah well in a

00:13:37.41
nathanpile
um But for me, there's nothing that gets like face to face. like um I'm an old um an old soul, I guess, in that way. Face to face is far superior.

00:13:51.06
nathanpile
And so I don't spend time in in those social spaces, but I do know that it absolutely it can be a place where we can fly off the handle easily at someone else.

00:14:05.17
Kevin Shock
And I think also, I think that people enter into those spaces not having any intention of learning from other people or or really engaging other people. They just want to throw their opinions down. And so too you know to to call someone out for a comment they make on Facebook, someone someone that is a stranger to you or someone that you don't know very well,

00:14:30.69
nathanpile
no Yeah.

00:14:30.94
Kevin Shock
I don't think it actually solves anything. I don't think it there's a purpose to it. I don't think it changes anything. um Anyway, though, that's, yeah. I appreciate that you struggle with that balance of of living living in harmony with people and yet being sincere with them and speaking the truth to them.

00:14:59.42
Kevin Shock
yeah Also, I think I think we have to be humble about what this truth actually is. If we if we think that we corner the market on truth, we the more we think that, the more I feel like we probably are relying more on our own self-righteousness than anything else.

00:15:08.63
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:15:18.19
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:15:20.25
Kevin Shock
But yeah, this this kind of speaks to one of the things that I'm struggling with, frustrated with now, and that simply is how we...

00:15:29.82
Kevin Shock
ah People who, people who have a sense that they know what's right, uh, how do we do a better job of saying that our, what we sense to be right, what we perceive as being a just actually comes from our relationship with our faith than it does from some other social platform or some other kind of ideology. So.

00:15:59.29
Kevin Shock
Actually, now that I just said that word, this that this may touch on my answer to the third question. So I will refrain from speaking anymore. um

00:16:10.36
nathanpile
What about you? what What word phrase image struck you?

00:16:11.72
Kevin Shock
yeah Honestly, I'm throwing a curve ball in here because it's a curve ball that's thrown at us in this reading. And the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land.

00:16:24.29
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:16:25.97
Kevin Shock
Sometimes I just struggle with things that happen in the Bible.

00:16:32.97
Kevin Shock
i love I love the Bible. I appreciate the Bible. I i i trust in the Spirit's work, um both in forming the Bible and in interpreting the Bible through my ears and my heart. ah I think this is just one of those questions that I'll never stop asking. Why? Why did why did God have to drive out other people in order to give?

00:16:58.43
Kevin Shock
these enslaved people a land. They're formerly enslaved people. they ah There may be a very good reason for it. I just don't know the answer to it.

00:17:15.86
Kevin Shock
So I don't have a lot more to say about that, Nathan. that's just what It's just what strikes me in this text. If I'm being completely honest, I could say something else, but this that's what stood out to me as I was reading through it.

00:17:27.95
nathanpile
No.

00:17:30.80
nathanpile
Well, there's a part of, of know you your comment, yes. and And I think a part of the comment that that strikes me as recognizing or or the question of God drives these people out. And yet why does God let us use language of like,

00:17:56.52
nathanpile
did they really all move out? Or did it just become that the Israelites ruled the area? um

00:18:03.54
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:18:04.16
nathanpile
And so the minority lost its voice. you know and And we note that you know through history, the winners write history.

00:18:07.38
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:18:16.66
nathanpile
right Like the minority doesn't get to write that we that they lost the battle.

00:18:20.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:18:22.18
nathanpile
even We're still here and this is still our trying we're still trying to hold on to our way of life. Instead, it's the victors that it write most of the history books. I'm not going to say all of it, but most of the history. But there's still that selfishness of us as human beings.

00:18:34.70
nathanpile
And I guess some of this plays off of the sincerity piece for me. of Like if i'm being if I'm truly serving God in sincerity, how do I get

00:18:50.21
nathanpile
Like I have to give up the me. And so there's a piece of, you know yes, you know we're gonna claim this victory, this is God's victory, um which brings up another whole host of things for me, um having just watched the Olympics, or some of, I didn't see all of the Olympics, I only saw a little bit.

00:19:14.00
nathanpile
um

00:19:16.68
nathanpile
But this idea that we're going to, give God that glory. Okay. Does God need that glory? I don't know. But okay.

00:19:32.16
nathanpile
um

00:19:33.15
Kevin Shock
I don't know that you're, I know what you're referring to in the Olympics, but.

00:19:36.35
nathanpile
Well, there was somebody that I had seen that it was, ah you know, God made me, God helped me accomplish this thing.

00:19:47.13
nathanpile
So it was all God.

00:19:47.26
Kevin Shock
Oh.

00:19:48.20
nathanpile
It was all God that did this. and

00:19:51.77
nathanpile
Though I like the humility, I'm not positive God needs to be an Olympic gold medalist. um

00:20:00.11
Kevin Shock
Oh.

00:20:02.58
nathanpile
And I don't know.

00:20:05.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:20:06.67
nathanpile
It's like the same thing here.

00:20:06.67
Kevin Shock
All right.

00:20:07.59
nathanpile
did that Does God, you know, God provided a land. to did we Did God's people live into the way God wanted them to live into that land? I don't know. um But the Israelites saw it as their job to take over the land and be the rulers of the land, um to be the people in control and power and and all of that. And so there's a part of that there.

00:20:36.98
nathanpile
yeah so um youre yourre your Your words also bring up for me a ah bunch of of baggage there that that we as human beings give credit to God sometimes for the things that we've done.

00:20:52.37
nathanpile
And I'm not always positive that they're the way God would want have wanted them to go.

00:21:01.77
nathanpile
But we do that.

00:21:01.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, i don't I don't know that I'm, well, yeah, I don't know where I am in in this kind in the context of this story.

00:21:13.51
Kevin Shock
I mean, it's pretty clear.

00:21:13.67
nathanpile
Sure.

00:21:17.46
Kevin Shock
ah you know The Exodus is a the exs is a great story of liberation. There's also a lot of violence in it.

00:21:24.76
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:21:25.96
Kevin Shock
And um and I'm not saying that that's

00:21:26.14
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:21:31.75
Kevin Shock
I'm not saying it's wrong. not ah i can't I can't make a judgment on it. it's It seems as though at least some of this is, I mean, it's it's all attributed to God. And I understand your struggle of sometimes we attribute things to God that are perhaps less than divine.

00:21:52.19
Kevin Shock
um

00:21:55.45
Kevin Shock
I do think that God is interested in liberating people from slavery what in whatever form it comes.

00:22:01.42
nathanpile
Mm-hm.

00:22:04.05
Kevin Shock
So I trust that this is a good story of salvation. ah Again, though, going going back to, and this is the this is the tail end of the Exodus here.

00:22:15.54
Kevin Shock
This is when ah this is when they're about to enter into the promised land. So a lot has already happened, and this is quite a ways into the book of Joshua, too.

00:22:20.30
nathanpile
Great.

00:22:25.71
Kevin Shock
ah Moses has already died, and this This is a long way away. ah But there, you know again, the ah why questions, why why did the Egyptian firstborn have to lose their life in order for the in order for the Hebrews to be liberated? ah

00:22:51.29
Kevin Shock
it's just It's just something I struggle with. And it's something and and it's something that ah

00:22:53.77
nathanpile
Sure.

00:22:59.61
Kevin Shock
is not as we get even even into other parts of Hebrew scripture and and some parts of the New Testament, it's not really the the violence is not a is not reflective of the God that people speak of.

00:23:23.66
Kevin Shock
And and maybe there that's because this is

00:23:24.38
nathanpile
Oh.

00:23:29.63
Kevin Shock
This is the God of the Israelites. this is yeah The God of the Israelites has acted on their behalf. And I know that that's something that I myself have said in a justification that I've used is that um in Hebrew scripture, God has a very, God has a focused ah focus on the particular people that God is trying to save.

00:23:54.89
nathanpile
Mm.

00:23:55.72
Kevin Shock
And so God does whatever God needs to do in order to save those people. And um as we get farther into the prophets, as God's people begin to turn ah and serve other gods and do things in even in God's name that are not holy, um God makes it clear in some of the prophets that the whole purpose of saving the Hebrew people, the Israelites, is so that they could be a beacon to the other nations, that other nations could look at them

00:24:30.33
Kevin Shock
and see what God has done for them and see how they live and emulate those same things. ah

00:24:35.78
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:24:37.34
Kevin Shock
And then that becomes, for us Christian people, that becomes, so literally the word becomes flesh, takes on flesh in the person of Jesus. um And so in whom it's clear that god God's mercy is not bound to a specific group of people or ah specific yeah or and or any kind of focused nation or anything like that, that God's god's mercy is for everyone. so but yeah I feel like I've just been rambling for a little while, ah but that's that's what sticks out to me. it's not really It doesn't really help in taking apart the text in the way that I would like to, but

00:25:27.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it but it did stick out for me. So let's read through it a second time.

00:25:31.02
nathanpile
Yeah, let's do it. Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summon the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel. And they presented themselves before God. And Joshua said to all the people, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, long ago, your ancestors,

00:25:57.09
nathanpile
Terah and his sons, Abraham and ni Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates and served other gods. Now, therefore, revere the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river and in Egypt and serve the Lord.

00:26:20.93
nathanpile
Now, if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods, your ancestors served in the region beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But as as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." Then the people answered.

00:26:42.59
nathanpile
Far be it for us that we would should forsake the Lord to serve other gods. For it is the Lord our God who brought us and our ancestors up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

00:26:55.82
nathanpile
and who did those great signs in our sight. He protected us along all the way that we went and among all the peoples through whom we passed. And the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the Lord for he is our God.

00:27:20.97
nathanpile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:27:28.03
Kevin Shock
I don't oh really know, Nathan. i the like The easy answer is serve the Lord. um But i don't I don't know what that means in the context of this text right now. ah i I do think that there is a... I think that Joshua puts forth a very good argument as to why the people should serve the Lord.

00:27:59.52
Kevin Shock
And I think that part of what think part of what gets lost in a lot of people's lives, but I'll say myself, for for myself too, is the reason why we follow God in the first place.

00:28:19.24
nathanpile
Mm hmm. Hmm.

00:28:22.92
Kevin Shock
And I think that it it's important for me to, and and perhaps it's simply ah recall recalling the um the blessing that I have found in a life ah with God, um so that I can continue then to pursue a life with God and and grow and be challenged in, or not necessarily in that order, be challenged in and grow ah into greater life with God. ah So that, in my mind, serve serve the Lord as a nebulous command or phrase. What does that actually mean? It could mean a thousand different things to a thousand different people. ah For me,

00:29:19.00
Kevin Shock
It means being turned, having my heart turned fully to attention of God's presence and God's word with me, and then as a result, living out that word and presence.

00:29:41.81
Kevin Shock
um But I think before I do any of that, I have to recall why it is that I have stuck by God and the church in the first place. And it wasn't like a one-time thing. I grew up in going to church, being part of a faith community, and um and yet what what the what the meaning of being in a faith community is for me has evolved over the course of time. And it continues to evolve.

00:30:18.94
Kevin Shock
It's not as though, it's not as though now that, you know, now that I've been a pastor for ah how long will it be? I don't even know. 18, 18 years soon.

00:30:31.65
nathanpile
Mmhmm.

00:30:31.80
Kevin Shock
Uh, it doesn't mean that I don't, that I always stay the course and don't need to remember, uh, the, the good things that God has done in my site previously.

00:30:45.11
Kevin Shock
I still need to remember those things on a regular basis. in order to continue staying the course or being brought back to the course after I after I drift away from it.

00:30:59.43
Kevin Shock
So I think that that's what, what did I say to begin with? Remembering why remembering why it is that I follow God and and live in a life in the church.

00:31:11.99
Kevin Shock
That's what God's calling me toward. What about you, Nathan? Toward what is God calling you?

00:31:15.39
nathanpile
I think i think my my response to yours would is gonna echo what my thoughts would be. um Like the word i would like I hear in what you're saying is motivation.

00:31:26.97
nathanpile
What motivates me to be a child of God?

00:31:33.35
Kevin Shock
a Yeah, that's that's probably a better way of saying it.

00:31:34.55
nathanpile
And I think in some ways, well, but but it's only because i you said it all first and then I was able to kind of summarize it. the The part of this, really when I read it, maybe it's the translation.

00:31:51.44
nathanpile
I don't want to say that it that it's just, but like like, it almost feels a little over the top here in 16. Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods.

00:32:04.34
Kevin Shock
here Yeah, yeah,

00:32:05.56
nathanpile
You know, like just the first part of the sentence kind of made me as I read read it was like, do you really mean it? do you really do you really you know and so that led me to why you were talking open up Joshua 24 so I could see the rest of the what happens here in the rest of these verses that are not the hand-picked verses of the lectionary and and this is the this is right before Joshua dies Like this is the the the end, like twenty verse twenty chapter is the last chapter of the book of Joshua.

00:32:43.36
nathanpile
um And before the announcement of Joshua's death. And so like I can see a teacher or a leader trying to say, but live live for God.

00:33:00.56
nathanpile
and and but But again, going back to that word sincerity, do it sincerely, do it do it in honesty, do it in in and truth, be true to who you are, that that your motivations are the things that that it's driving. you um If you're doing it for your own selfish reasons, yeah,

00:33:23.04
nathanpile
it's not there. If you're, if your Your reason that you're serving on the church council is to to make sure that the church building's front door stays open because of your commitment to your grandparents or your parent that was also that kind of an advocate. like yeah Yes, there's a greatness to your faithfulness of your family, but is it really like behind your faith? like what What's your faith in then?

00:33:57.69
nathanpile
um you know, what's what's motivating you to have this relationship with God. if yeah And so you could say, oh yeah, absolutely. I want to do this because this is what God wants. But like, is it what God wants? Like, I think that part of it is the harder the the harder searching.

00:34:20.18
nathanpile
Like, there's a there's a there's a a depth of of analyzing and wrestling with scripture that helps us, I think, it discern God's ways. Again, when we do that in community, when we do that together, um again, that promise of the Spirit being with us and guiding us together in that process um gives us a fuller sense of what God is.

00:34:48.29
nathanpile
really at, but if my motivation is to simply keep the doors open because I think it would be what my my ancestors told me I should do, or I think that's what they would want me to do, that's one level of commitment. But there's a whole 'nother level of commitment that I think is missing. And and it goes to some of the pieces that you're talking about here of of how do I get at what is what what's inside of me and living that out? and and I think Joshua here is trying to, two his one last ditch effort to get his his the people that have our fault you know that are that are his listeners, that are his community to kind of say,

00:35:42.99
nathanpile
be authentic in your, in living this out. Otherwise, it's it's not really, and and that authenticity needs to come from its source, which is God, and not other other other influences, which we'll get to in this third question when we talk about other gods with a small g.

00:36:12.00
nathanpile
kind of a thing, these other things that could be the thing that motivates us. So yeah. um

00:36:21.11
nathanpile
So motivation would be the thing I think God is pointing us to.

00:36:24.08
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:36:25.72
nathanpile
And and when I say toward what God's calling, not just to be motivated, but to be motivated by who God is and not who I selfishly want God to be or or the way that I want the world to unravel or unfold. I think typically when when when I have a sense of what the next steps are and I'm uncomfortable with them, that makes gives me some reassurance that God's in it and not just me. Because if I was 100% behind it, that it's Nathan's agenda,

00:37:02.15
nathanpile
that's Nathan's agenda here, that that that then then i' and I'm 100%, yeah, this is what God wants, um then then I feel like it's Nathan's agenda. Yeah, yeah, I know that this is the right way.

00:37:18.71
nathanpile
you know i I think there's still mystery in who God is and there's still room for an openness and and there's still some tentativeness or should be some tentativeness on my part on how we how I continue on because I have to leave room for God to to to change me in that.

00:37:44.55
nathanpile
because God is constantly seeking to change me because Nathan is pretty focused on Nathan and what I want and what my motivations are and and how I want things to play out. And so um when I'm uncomfortable, not excessively uncomfortable, when but when I'm uncomfortable, that tells me, at least in my own, in my rational brain to kind of say,

00:38:13.57
nathanpile
then this might be a but the better path. This might be God's path that God's calling us to be on because because I, that because I am uncomfortable. um And it's not all about me. like I'm I'm not The Uncomfort comes from that there's ideas and and there's new ideas and there's new um new things that are kind of taking me out of my comfort zone um as I move forward.

00:38:46.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah, i think that's a I think that's a struggle that um but you take seriously, that I take seriously, that I see not judging anyone because I'm guilty of the same offense, but I i see people not taking it seriously.

00:39:05.00
Kevin Shock
ah

00:39:05.15
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:39:06.08
Kevin Shock
that There's just an assumption that if i if I read, if I know my Bible or I listen to what my pastor says about my Bible and I just take that wholesale and I think that I'm living in alignment with everything that God wants me to live in alignment with, that I just think that's a dangerous scenario. And what you say, I think is true that we then end up confusing our own will for God's will.

00:39:37.60
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:39:40.96
Kevin Shock
And I, I was just, I was thinking this morning about um I'm going to taking a colleague to see a friend later on today.

00:39:52.46
Kevin Shock
And ah he he owns he and his wife own a restaurant and they're involved in the community. I mean, they do a lot of stuff in the community.

00:40:04.86
Kevin Shock
And recently in they they're in a very rural part of central Pennsylvania. and they had a they had a fundraiser for AIDS research that was a drag show.

00:40:19.84
Kevin Shock
And so you can imagine the comments they've gotten, the things that people have said online about them.

00:40:21.61
nathanpile
Oh.

00:40:24.93
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:40:29.84
Kevin Shock
ah And it it amazes me to see that these are Like when I, when I look at this event, I won't comment about any other event or any other thing. What I see is I see people who are dressing up extravagantly and yes, it's a drag show. So they're dressing as people of a different gender. Uh, and they're performing, but it's theater and

00:41:02.14
Kevin Shock
And you know when you think about drag, that's been in theater for thousands of years. but there There have been people all throughout time who have dressed up and performed ah as people with different genders.

00:41:08.34
nathanpile
Yeah, yep.

00:41:15.78
Kevin Shock
but So like at face value, that's what it is. And and it was a fundraiser or to to help support people who in this part of the world are not well supported in the situation they find themselves in.

00:41:31.92
Kevin Shock
And ah so to me, I look at that and I think, this is a this is a loving community-minded event. And then there are other people who, because of the faith they ascribe to, look at it and immediately call it an abomination.

00:41:49.62
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:41:54.33
Kevin Shock
When there's no there's no abominating happening,

00:41:55.56
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:41:58.71
Kevin Shock
There's nothing, like there are a lot of assumptions being made about the people who are performing it and you know, that that aren't aren't necessarily true.

00:42:11.02
Kevin Shock
Because someone dresses up and performs in front of people, you can't make assumptions about what their sexual behavior is.

00:42:21.32
nathanpile
Alright.

00:42:23.28
Kevin Shock
I don't think you can. And if you are,

00:42:25.88
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:42:27.17
Kevin Shock
why are you so focused on that? So that's what boggles my mind is that there's, I think that sometimes, and again, I'm probably guilty of this in some way or another, I think that sometimes we get so confused between our own will and God's will, or more pointedly saying what what disturbs us or sickens us and what we think disturbs or sickens God, that we make assumptions about people. We do all of these things that do not reflect any of the attributes that God's people have talked about God possessing throughout generations. We're not patient with people. We're not loving with people. We're not kind with people.

00:43:27.53
Kevin Shock
None of the fruits of the spirit that Paul talks about are are evident whenever you have people who are making uninformed comments about other people.

00:43:40.88
nathanpile
Yeah

00:43:42.76
Kevin Shock
And it's I think it's just a huge problem in our world. And and and um I don't think that it's, is it a new problem? No, not at all.

00:43:54.55
Kevin Shock
But I feel like I feel like we have gotten, we've gotten over some very bad things about humanity in the past that maybe this is an issue we could get over to.

00:44:05.99
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:44:06.81
Kevin Shock
So um I'm kind of bleeding into the third question now.

00:44:11.34
nathanpile
You are. Why don't we do it a third time and and then because that my comments are only going to take us deeper there.

00:44:13.50
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:44:17.09
nathanpile
So let's do this for a third time.

00:44:17.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Joshua 24. Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel at Shechem. He summoned the elders of Israel, its leaders, judges, and officers. They presented themselves before God. Then Joshua said to the entire people, this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says. Long ago, your ancestors lived on the other side of the Euphrates. They served other gods. Among them was Terah, the father of Abraham and Nahor.

00:44:46.28
Kevin Shock
So now revere the Lord, serve Him honestly and faithfully. Put aside, oh, I'm reading the wrong translation. Put aside. I just realized, because I remembered you saying it sincerely was the thing.

00:44:59.80
Kevin Shock
I i looked up the CEB to see something else to see what it said. Okay, now therefore revere the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and in faithfulness.

00:45:08.53
nathanpile
There it is.

00:45:10.35
Kevin Shock
Put away the gods that your ancestors serve beyond the river and in Egypt and serve the Lord. Now, if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods of your ancestors served in the region beyond the river or the gods of the Amorites and whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

00:45:28.94
Kevin Shock
Then the people answered, far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods. For it is the Lord, our God, who brought us and our ancestors up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight. He protected us all along the way that we went and among all the peoples through whom we passed. And the Lord drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the Lord, for he is our God.

00:45:58.19
Kevin Shock
Nathan, what are the gods you need to put away?

00:46:06.37
nathanpile
Umm...

00:46:10.79
nathanpile
I need to put away my my God of Nathan probably is the easiest way to to to say that.

00:46:15.14
Kevin Shock
Hmm, hmm.

00:46:18.10
nathanpile
um and and And I say that tongue in cheek knowing full well that tomorrow morning um when I get up, I'll pull the God of Nathan back out and it will dictate things that I, my actions and my words and the things that I do um in ways that um Yeah.

00:46:44.43
nathanpile
are um Are... Yeah, not easy. um like like um Nathan will always... The practice of trying to put my um my wants and desires aside doesn't make it any easier the next day to put those wants and desires aside.

00:47:17.25
nathanpile
um

00:47:17.58
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah

00:47:18.68
nathanpile
um ah you know it's ah It's a practice. it it it's It's being aware of it. it's It's being humble enough to say when somebody calls you on it to apologize and say, you're right. My own wants took precedence today and that maybe it hurt you, it affected you, you know, whatever.

00:47:40.67
nathanpile
However, they're bringing it to me, but being able to recognize that my own ego is a part of every day's decisions.

00:47:43.16
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:47:50.61
nathanpile
And and some days i don't I don't separate that ego well enough from the decision so that the decision can be made, hum you know, in a sincere way with the hope of serving God. Instead, it has been made because it serves me completely.

00:48:14.40
nathanpile
and so um And so the God probably most frequently that ah is is myself, is my own ego. And and being able to um know it and be mindful of it and keep looking in the mirror after it,

00:48:32.12
nathanpile
um but also recognizing that there's going to be some days that I'm so tired that I'm not doing that self reflection.

00:48:40.43
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:48:41.73
nathanpile
And so, and maybe some days, ah yeah some days I can blame it on being tired.

00:48:43.51
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:48:47.31
nathanpile
Some days it'll just be that I'm so selfish that I, this is what I want. This is the way I want it to be.

00:48:54.62
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Interesting.

00:48:56.47
nathanpile
And and as a as a supervisor of people, I know a warning sign for myself is that when I say when i say the phrase, because I said so.

00:49:11.15
Kevin Shock
Oh boy.

00:49:12.29
nathanpile
That's a great time for me to self analyze and say, what's going on?

00:49:16.49
nathanpile
Nathan, that that's your answer to that question. To that, to their, to their, why do I have to do this or why I don't think this should, you know, my, my split second response of because I'm the boss.

00:49:33.94
nathanpile
Um, isn't that's a, that's an, that's an ego response in a, in the moment.

00:49:41.48
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah. Yep.

00:49:43.47
nathanpile
And so I would love to be able to say that in those moments, I catch myself and say, let's go back and let me help explain the why to you and and all of that, that doesn't happen.

00:49:45.11
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:49:55.12
nathanpile
Typically that that ends the conversation. Or I say, if if it didn't, then I say, I escalate, want my ego escalates one more time and I say something even harsher.

00:50:06.74
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:50:06.98
nathanpile
And so then it's the time afterwards that I can then process and say, OK, now I need to go back and apologize um about that.

00:50:07.90
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:50:16.70
nathanpile
And so, yeah, so so that the putting putting my putting the Nathan Ego and um the Nathan Idol in in the in in putting that away is a constant struggle. And um some days I'm able to self differentiate better than others. and um and other day And some days I'm not able to self differentiate and the ego and the Nathan is the thing that wins out, um unfortunately.

00:51:01.63
nathanpile
So what about you? what um What are the gods you need to put away?

00:51:05.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah. i i think i think I mean, I think my answer, all it just boils down to the same. I need to let go of the God of Nathan. I just worship you so much that I know.

00:51:21.39
Kevin Shock
a No, I think that

00:51:23.71
nathanpile
Well, everyone can't see the giant poster behind you um that is me. um So, yeah you know, I agree.

00:51:30.01
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:51:31.44
nathanpile
you know

00:51:32.02
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah. All right. Let go of it now. um i I mean, I really do think it it it boils it boils down to self-love.

00:51:36.66
nathanpile
and

00:51:42.60
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:51:44.33
Kevin Shock
If the commandment of God, if Jesus, God made flesh, summarizes the whole of the law in love love God with your whole being,

00:51:59.78
Kevin Shock
and love your neighbor in the same way, then than anything than anything that takes love away from those two objects and directs it back to the self is is an idol.

00:52:15.78
Kevin Shock
and And idols can range you know, from anything to, you know, from, from money, you know, and anything, anything that we, any tool that we use to serve ourselves also is, it easily becomes an idol or a God, a false God.

00:52:30.82
nathanpile
No, no

00:52:32.26
Kevin Shock
ah So, you know, money, ah position, um and any kind of privilege that we may have Um, I think for myself, one, one God that I'm still working on letting go of, uh, is my own sense of accomplishment. Um, and I think, you know, I, uh, we use that phrase at the beginning of our podcast. Um, you know, all of the, all of the things but that we list when we're giving information about ourselves are things that we could turn into Gods, I think. Uh, and.

00:53:12.87
Kevin Shock
And we say that, you know, none of this, what we describe or how we describe ourselves, none of this makes us better able to read and interpret scripture than anyone else.

00:53:24.48
Kevin Shock
And I think that that is a, that to me is a sentiment that has come with the wisdom of time.

00:53:37.79
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:53:39.60
Kevin Shock
I don't think 15 years ago, I would have said that.

00:53:42.31
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:53:43.51
Kevin Shock
I think that 15 years ago, I would have said my, my education, my calling does make me better able to read and interpret scripture than anyone else or not anyone else than, than someone else, not anyone else.

00:53:57.10
nathanpile
yeah

00:53:58.02
Kevin Shock
but Um, but I don't, I truly don't believe that anymore. And I think that there's, I think that God's, I, I spent a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of energy.

00:54:13.34
Kevin Shock
um preparing for my position in the church. And I think that my position in the church is an important one. But I think that there are all kinds of other people who are able to do similar things to what I do and who also are or ah hold other equally important roles in the life of the church that don't have the education that I do.

00:54:41.17
Kevin Shock
but

00:54:41.41
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:54:42.23
Kevin Shock
They may bring other things to the table, and I know that they do. And so I think I should take great care in how I interact with those people and and not automatically think of myself as more important or more worthy or even more prepared.

00:54:52.09
nathanpile
Hmm.

00:55:06.55
Kevin Shock
Um, I, and, and I guess one reason that I say that that's a God or has been a God for me is bottom line. I think that way of thinking easily turns into a denial of what the Holy Spirit is able to do.

00:55:24.90
nathanpile
Yeah.

00:55:24.97
Kevin Shock
And that, and that is, I think that that's what clearly makes it a false God.

00:55:34.17
Kevin Shock
the whole The Holy Spirit does not have to work through a Master's of Divinity degree.

00:55:39.79
nathanpile
Right.

00:55:40.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:55:45.34
Kevin Shock
Again, that's not to that's not to minimize. The people who have done that, and I am one of them, ah the people who have accomplished that, that that's not naysaying that accomplishment. And that's not... um

00:56:00.56
Kevin Shock
it's It's not saying that anyone could do what we do. It's not saying that either. But if i if I go the extreme opposite direction of saying that only I can do it or only people who have been trained like me are able to you know do certain things, then I think that gets... I think it's easy to turn that into a God. That's the easiest way to say it.

00:56:28.18
nathanpile
Mm.

00:56:32.94
Kevin Shock
But again, that's all, and anything that anything that enables me to show love of self over, and I'm also not saying love of self is not important, but love of self over, love of God and love of neighbor, I think has the potential to become a false God, an idol.

00:56:59.57
nathanpile
No.

00:57:04.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so that's that's where I am on the third question.

00:57:14.18
nathanpile
um Well, and and I don't have and a whole lot to add on top of it, um other than to say thanks for sharing that. they the I do i love ah love that idea of that anything

00:57:29.64
nathanpile
that we try to put ah above that love of God and love of neighbor can become of a false God because any of it can be. It can be technology. It can be cars. It can be you know it can be me. it you know It can be anything for all of us. it can be It can become theology. Theology can become that thing that we put above.

00:57:55.00
nathanpile
God and the love of our ah love of God and love of neighbor and then then we think well you're you're don't believe ah the you know you're not you're not believing correctly you're not doing enough um in those ways you're not authentic enough you're not sincere enough in your faith like any of those things can become that that replace the ultimate that being love of God love of love of neighbor

00:57:56.29
Kevin Shock
Sure. Mm hmm.

00:58:18.85
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:58:23.15
nathanpile
um So i I appreciate you boiling that down for us here as we get down to this the end of this question and the end of our conversation, but that that idea of um that we can make we can put anything, we can make anything a God.

00:58:42.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:58:42.18
nathanpile
Anything at all can become a God um for us and and that we do have to be mindful of that.

00:58:53.43
nathanpile
um Additional texts if you're ah curious to kind of dig in a little bit more this week. Psalm 34 verses 15 through 22, the eyes of the Lord ah are upon the righteous. um Ephesians the sixth chapter verses 10 through 20, put the armor of God, put on the armor of God. So this idea again in in Ephesians from Paul.

00:59:19.00
nathanpile
um of the armor of God ah as we go into battle. ah John 6, 56 to 69, the bread of eternal life. And so this is the, we're still in the deep, deep

00:59:38.87
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:59:39.63
nathanpile
bread for the world see a session of of John um um There and then a Text there from the Old Testament that would be continuations week to week um We've shared that ah as well as alternate readings first Kings chapter 8

00:59:42.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah, we are.

00:59:56.86
nathanpile
ah verse 1 through 43. There's lots of verses there um and they pick and choose a couple of them, um but I would just say if you're going to read through there for the whole context, I would read 1 Kings chapter 8 verse 1 through 43. That's Solomon's prayer at the temple dedication. So the dedication of the temple and and King Solomon's prayer that is said are shared at that point. And Psalm 84, how dear to me is your dwelling, O Lord.

01:00:30.62
nathanpile
ah Kevin, thank you for your reflections again this week. ah And ah those of you who are listening along, we hope that you've had someone to share your own reflections with, or you can share them with Kevin and I um on ah social media or email um as we um as we continue to tend together. So we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:01:00.80
Kevin Shock
and peace.