Episode 08: Matthew 2:1-12

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What do you hope to witness in your lifetime?

Additional texts:
Isaiah 60:1-6
Psalm 72:1-7, 10-14
Ephesians 3:1-12

Transcript

00:01.72
Kevin Shock
Merry Christmas, everyone. ah I hope you've been having a good holiday season.

00:04.27
Nathan Pile
Merry Christmas.

00:07.81
Kevin Shock
Nathan, have you seen any good Christmas movies this year yet?

00:11.37
Nathan Pile
ah no Well, on um yeah, it there's there's Hallmark in my family.

00:16.73
Kevin Shock
Oh.

00:19.21
Kevin Shock
Oh, OK.

00:19.58
Nathan Pile
And so there's that's, there's a lot of so are they new?

00:20.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:25.69
Nathan Pile
Yes.

00:27.95
Kevin Shock
ah But they're the same old thing.

00:29.56
Nathan Pile
Um, Can, is my goal to pick out what the conflict is, um, be within the first 10 minutes. Yes. That's my, that that's how I play the game of Hallmark to try to figure out what's going to be the con, what is going to be the real conflict.

00:48.48
Nathan Pile
um the in the last 20 minutes that's gonna explode and then has to be repaired. So that's what I go for is to kind of give myself a little excitement in that two hour window. um Can I guess the conflict fast enough?

01:05.23
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

01:05.23
Nathan Pile
ah

01:05.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:06.94
Nathan Pile
And um so that's my um that's my thing. and um And so we watch those and some of them are very cute and and and lovely. ah Rachel and I watched Red One on Prime ah the other day, and that was okay.

01:22.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah. You.

01:25.71
Nathan Pile
That was just okay. i was I was hoping it would be more... um So like, Dwayne Johnson has done a couple of Apple things with Ryan Reynolds.

01:38.77
Nathan Pile
and their hysterical action movies like like Red Notice and a couple of those things.

01:41.36
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:46.47
Nathan Pile
um And so I think we were both hoping that... um ah who's in that Who's in with him?

01:56.40
Kevin Shock
Uh, JK Simmons plays Santa and Chris Evans is the, uh, yeah.

01:56.71
Nathan Pile
ah

01:59.39
Nathan Pile
JK Simmons is said Chris Evans. I was like, I was like ah stuck on Chris Pine and I knew it wasn't Chris Pine.

02:05.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

02:05.40
Nathan Pile
um Chris Evans is the other, and so though it's funny, it's not Ryan Reynolds and Dwayne The Rock um Johnson.

02:15.88
Kevin Shock
Right, right. Yeah.

02:17.60
Nathan Pile
so ah But it was it was good, that was okay. ah Rachel and I went back to one of our favorites from last year, which was Spirited, um which is on Apple TV, and that is

02:26.09
Kevin Shock
Oh.

02:30.17
Nathan Pile
wicked good.

02:31.29
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah, we we don't have Apple TV in our house, um so we haven't seen Spirit and we have our we have our favorites that we watch. We've already watched. Home Alone, when I say already, this is this is in the middle of the Christmas season.

02:46.16
Kevin Shock
I think we watched Home Alone maybe Thanksgiving day or the day after Thanksgiving. um We did watch Red One last night, and ah we both thought it was, we like to compare the um our reaction to it with the Rotten Tomatoes ratings.

03:01.73
Nathan Pile
Oh, yeah.

03:03.12
Kevin Shock
We didn't think that it deserved the Rotten Tomatoes ratings it got. It got like a 30% on Rotten Tomatoes.

03:08.21
Nathan Pile
Oh yeah, I didn't deserve that.

03:08.58
Kevin Shock
and um

03:09.89
Nathan Pile
No, I didn't deserve that.

03:09.95
Kevin Shock
No, it it you're right. It wasn't funny, um not like not like laugh out loud on the floor funny, but um but we both thought it was a pretty good movie.

03:15.77
Nathan Pile
All right. Yeah.

03:19.98
Kevin Shock
I was surprised. So anyway, and then, you know, then we have our other favorites that we watched. I I also watched recently um the old Frosty of the Snowman cartoon.

03:32.86
Kevin Shock
It doesn't hold up.

03:33.43
Nathan Pile
Oh.

03:36.89
Kevin Shock
I didn't I did not enjoy it. I was looking for the Rudolph stop motion animation and could not find that. um And then we also watched a Charlie Brown Christmas.

03:50.99
Kevin Shock
ah Which is is good, but also ah as watching it as an adult.

03:56.18
Kevin Shock
It's it's a little strange um There's there's some strangeness to it the way like Charlie Brown definitely needs to be in therapy um But you know, that's I guess that's part of his character ah ah And and then and then I hunted down on YouTube and watched because we don't have cable either the um the trio of

03:58.10
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah.

04:09.34
Nathan Pile
as part of his character. Yeah, ah yeah, yeah, yeah.

04:21.92
Kevin Shock
stop-motion cartoon, uh, ones that they show on, on channel six, the BJ.

04:27.20
Nathan Pile
Oh yeah, hard rocking Jojo.

04:30.19
Kevin Shock
Hard rock, Coco and Joe.

04:31.45
Nathan Pile
And Jo, yeah, ah yeah, yeah.

04:31.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And, uh, and Susie snowflake and, and that frosty, the snowman version.

04:35.70
Nathan Pile
Mm.

04:38.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

04:38.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah, those are classics.

04:39.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Those are great. Yeah.

04:41.90
Nathan Pile
Yeah, classics.

04:42.25
Kevin Shock
Anyway, uh, just some, just some fun little banter about Christmas movies. I was there. They're on my brain right now.

04:48.49
Nathan Pile
It is, it is. We went to, we went to the orchestra recently here, Johnstown's Orchestra, did a big, it always does a big holiday Christmas kind of a show.

04:50.60
Kevin Shock
And, uh,

04:54.89
Kevin Shock
Uh-huh.

05:01.24
Nathan Pile
And so we went and they played all of the Charlie Brown Christmas tunes.

05:07.48
Kevin Shock
Oh yeah.

05:08.54
Nathan Pile
um And I learned a fun fact, which was the composer of that music was from Johnstown.

05:16.24
Kevin Shock
Really?

05:16.93
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I was like, good on, I don't know.

05:18.03
Kevin Shock
What's, what's his name? Uh, the, the trio.

05:21.17
Nathan Pile
I don't know.

05:23.38
Kevin Shock
I can't think of his name now.

05:24.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I don't know.

05:25.65
Kevin Shock
it'll It'll come to me at some point, but anyway.

05:26.76
Nathan Pile
But I was like, sweet, look at that, a little, little something.

05:28.88
Kevin Shock
Oh, interesting.

05:31.46
Nathan Pile
um Or at least maybe it was the arrangement. Maybe that was what it was. But the director was talking about it.

05:35.48
Kevin Shock
Oh, okay.

05:37.35
Nathan Pile
But the arrangement that was played was written by a Johnstown native, which again, I thought was And it's just great music. So, um, so it was kind of fun to listen, even though I didn't get to, you said about seeing Try the Brown Christmas. I didn't get to see it, but the music I did, I did experience this weekend and that was nice. So.

05:56.68
Kevin Shock
I think i think them I think the music is one of the high points of that special, yeah.

06:01.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

06:02.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I do have, floating around in my collection somewhere, I do have a CD, that CD.

06:02.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

06:07.14
Kevin Shock
um Vince Giraldi, that's his name.

06:07.14
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

06:10.37
Kevin Shock
That's the name of the, at least it was the Vince Giraldi trio who did it. But um anyway, yeah, I I'll have to I I like to research that stuff.

06:14.24
Nathan Pile
Mm. That played it. Yeah. Pull it out.

06:18.19
Kevin Shock
I have to yeah to look it up.

06:18.39
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Turned out. Yeah. I can't remember what the name was. um I couldn't even go back and look at my bulletin from that show. But when you said, Charlie Brown, I popped back into my head that it was ah sitting kind of bopping my head around listening because it is kind of jazzy kind of a thing.

06:35.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah, nope. It is, yeah.

06:39.61
Nathan Pile
So, so, so yeah.

06:41.01
Kevin Shock
Well, I knew it.

06:41.65
Nathan Pile
Merry Christmas, everyone.

06:42.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah, Merry Christmas. um The reason for the season is Jesus. So we'll get back to talking about him a little bit. um I don't know why I'm laughing at that. Some people would take that very seriously.

06:53.95
Kevin Shock
But ah yeah, no, that that's our that's our purpose here to talk ah about

07:00.88
Nathan Pile
Maybe you can put that on a bumper sticker.

07:01.00
Kevin Shock
um

07:03.80
Kevin Shock
The reason for the season is Jesus.

07:08.75
Nathan Pile
and then And then sell it in the marketplace on Amazon.

07:08.99
Kevin Shock
I'm sure I I don't I don't I don't know that i don't know anyone has thought of that, putting that on a bumper sticker. um we are Today Nathan and I are talking about, um so ah this is a reading for just when the Christmas season has come to an end and the holiday that we celebrate in the church at the end of the Christmas season is the Feast of the Epiphany.

07:36.42
Kevin Shock
ah Epiphany means a revealing as is used and still used in common language. ah And this is when we celebrate that the nation people of other nations have come to see and recognize the savior of the world who is the newborn king of the Jews.

07:58.06
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

08:00.00
Kevin Shock
and his name is Jesus.

08:02.50
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

08:02.80
Kevin Shock
um So the reading we're looking at today is Matthew chapter two, verses one through 12, which is the the visit the visitation of the Magi, the the three kings.

08:14.16
Kevin Shock
um We're looking at it using the common English Bible and our three questions for today. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

08:24.89
Kevin Shock
toward what is God calling you in this text? And what do you hope to witness in your lifetime?

08:32.10
Nathan Pile
Wow, that's ah that's huge.

08:33.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's a big one, isn't it?

08:36.35
Nathan Pile
ah Wow, I can go all over the place with that one. All right, and um here's a couple of things about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white in our late 40s, college and seminary, educated.

08:52.68
Nathan Pile
We work in the Lutheran church and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read and scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation of life with God and one another. So we wanna know what you hear and think from your experience.

09:19.49
Nathan Pile
All right, Matthew the second chapter.

09:25.52
Nathan Pile
Verses 1 through 12. After Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in the territory of Judea, during the king the rule of King Herod, Magi came from the east to Jerusalem. They asked, where is the newborn king of the Jews? We've seen his star in the east and we've come to honor him. When King Herod heard this, he was troubled and everyone in Jerusalem was troubled with him.

09:54.43
Nathan Pile
He gathered all the chief priests and the legal experts and asked them where the Christ was to be born. They said, in Bethlehem of Judea. For this is what the prophet wrote. You, Bethlehem, land of Judah, by no means are you least among the rulers of Judah, because from you will come one who governs, who will shepherd my people Israel. Then Herod secretly called for the Magi,

10:23.96
Nathan Pile
and found out from them the time when the star had first appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem saying, go and search carefully for the child. When you found him, report to me so that I too may go and honor him. When they heard the king, they went and look. The star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the child was.

10:52.19
Nathan Pile
When they saw the star, they were filled with joy. They entered the house and saw the child with Mary, his mother. Falling to their knees, they honored him. Then they opened their treasure chests and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Because they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they went back to their own country by another route.

11:19.95
Nathan Pile
And if you're meeting with your group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Or you can listen to Kevin here as he um gives us shares his answer to what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text.

11:35.25
Kevin Shock
ah it's It's the image. It's the um it's Herod. Herod, his um the way that he is trying to manipulate the Magi and the just the the things that are happening in the in the world, the events, um I'm intrigued, um I don't know, I'm intrigued.

12:01.33
Kevin Shock
I think I think what's happening here is I'm being influenced by, aside from watching Christmas movies right now, I'm also working my way through The Wire again, which is one of my favorite television shows of all time.

12:14.49
Kevin Shock
And ah yeah, just, you know, um police, politicians, drug dealers,

12:20.45
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

12:24.63
Kevin Shock
Developers the way that they're all in each other's pockets and and working both both with and against each other at the same time ah That it highlights for me what King Herod is doing with the magi here with the Kings The philosophers whatever we call them um How he draws them in Fain's well doesn't feign interest he is interested but feigns positive interest ah in order to then lure them back so that he so that they can deliver it to him information that will assist him in eliminating this threat that he perceives.

12:54.47
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

13:05.84
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

13:07.48
Kevin Shock
ah but um like in in times when it comes to um Jesus or another servant of God ah fulfilling God's will, ah God steps in in a super supernatural creation-based kind of way and and essentially tells them in a dream, ah don't go back to Herod. He's a he's a swindler.

13:36.63
Kevin Shock
And so they don't, so they leave for their country by another way. They escape out of there in the same way that um Jesus then ah soon escapes out of there, or rather Joseph escapes out of there with Mary and Jesus.

13:51.87
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah, so that's that's just, I'm I like it when scripture doesn't just

13:54.07
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

14:03.22
Kevin Shock
focus on the supernatural, but also is a is a mirror to humanity and reveals things about us and the way that our world works, or rather the way that we we work in the world ah to get what we want and how God finds ways to confound that. So that's what sticks out to me.

14:30.90
Kevin Shock
in this reading. What about you, Nathan? What word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

14:36.03
Nathan Pile
um I was more, a little bit more focused towards the end and um both that that Mary and child are in the house now and um and the gifts, the gifts always,

14:56.20
Nathan Pile
stick out to me and and why we named them and and what the what the meaning of that those names are um or you know what they would have mean in in that time.

15:07.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

15:09.86
Nathan Pile
So um so so the again, because we always think about ah the the Christmas story that we hear on Christmas Eve and the idea that, you know, baby Jesus and Mary and Joseph are just, they're in a manger and they're just there the whole, for however long they're in Jerusalem or in Bethlehem, that's how long they're in this.

15:33.24
Nathan Pile
But at some point in time, people decide it's it's a good idea to move a baby and their its mother inside um into an actual house. And so um to hear that kind of shared here.

15:45.67
Nathan Pile
um So there's some time that has passed. um

15:53.03
Nathan Pile
And so mother and baby are, have been moved inside. The other piece then, as I said, is the are these idea of gifts and um really um smart people. And sometimes I would even feel like, um you know, trying to understand, well, what do these three gifts, gold, frankincense and myrrh.

16:19.38
Nathan Pile
ah mean and why they're given to them as a part of and that they're named like You know, how many of our gifts do we remember from 20 years ago? Let alone You know Luke is Or Matthew is writing this

16:44.09
Nathan Pile
Years and years after and and and is not asking Jesus. Do you remember what you got for your first Christmas?

16:50.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right.

16:51.35
Nathan Pile
You know like like it's like gifts that are shared and so there's there's meaning behind the gifts and and all of those You know again, if you do a Google search, you'll probably find like ten different answers maybe not that many maybe four or five different answers of why these gifts are given but there's You know, gold is, was, you know, the family would have needed gold. And so there's gold there and gold is important, but Jesus is the gift of God. And so therefore it's a, he's a golden gift to, you know, so there's all kinds of meanings around, but like, we don't really know, um, what the gifts were or what significance they had. Um,

17:40.83
Nathan Pile
other than this has been passed to us. And so, and it was passed to Luke. And so Luke wrote it down um because he felt like these were important details. And so um I don't know which one it was. Frankincense or myrrh. One of them is a burial oil.

17:57.24
Nathan Pile
um

17:58.93
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

17:58.97
Nathan Pile
And I don't know which one of those two it is. One of them is. And so that's always talked about that. Here's a gift that is um

18:07.80
Nathan Pile
given foreshadowing what's to come. um

18:12.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I mean, yeah, and I can't remember if it's myrrh or frankincense, but um I mean, yeah, these these are essential oils. They're used for a variety of purposes. But yes, yeah. Burial certainly burial preparation is one of them.

18:26.25
Nathan Pile
And they both could be, they both could be, brutal like I don't.

18:27.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, they could be, yeah.

18:29.21
Nathan Pile
aye um So it's just, again, like why is it here? Why is this important for us to know um and they were brought in treasure treasure chests. So the the deeper meaning for me in all of this is that people from the outside recognize the value of Jesus. The people who are not a part of the Jewish um tradition have come two to recognize the value of the Son of God being born.

19:04.13
Nathan Pile
um So you like that's the that's the overarching piece. like As I get meaning out of this, I don't want to like ask all of these questions and not provide some kind of direction because there there there is meaning to this. It's just when we dig in and and say, okay, well, they opened treasure chests and here we're presented these three gifts. Some of the meaning of those gifts has been extrapolated over the years by by rabbis, by ah Well, i would they they wouldn't have been rabbis anymore if they they were would have been Christian rabbis, I guess, but um people that would have been early teachers in the faith um would have kind of talked about this. Others would have written about it. You get into the church fathers, and that that I'm sure Martin Luther probably wrote about it because he wrote about everything.

19:53.56
Nathan Pile
um ah But again, it's all of us kind of reaching for what might be the meaning behind it. I think for me the deepest meaning that I can take from it as a somebody that proclaims the gospel is that people from the outside world valued God, valued what was happening in this space um and wanted to come and show

20:04.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

20:14.93
Kevin Shock
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

20:20.93
Nathan Pile
to give thanks, to give praise, to give gifts, um to honor. And so in doing so, you know that's the piece I take out of this but this last paragraph, but but it is always interesting that these kind of details fall in there and then it kind of, well, what does it mean?

20:40.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I mean, right.

20:40.75
Nathan Pile
So those are my two cents.

20:41.86
Kevin Shock
You're right. I think an important takeaway is that these important people from some other land ah thought it was important enough for them to follow a star, not just take a trip, but take an uncertain trip with these.

21:02.75
Kevin Shock
I mean, I mean they were I doubt that I don't think that they would have themselves been vulnerable, but I think that they probably would have been a target for robbery or something like that as they're making this trip.

21:12.55
Nathan Pile
Right, sure.

21:14.65
Kevin Shock
ah No, no.

21:14.69
Nathan Pile
It wouldn't have been a completely safe journey.

21:18.50
Kevin Shock
But um but as it says in the text, they they came to honor him.

21:24.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

21:25.17
Kevin Shock
We have come to honor him. And it's and it's obviously a very big honor. It's a It's an honor that took a lot of effort and, um, yeah.

21:36.88
Kevin Shock
And I think that's important to raise up. I think that's an important part of what this story of the Magi is.

21:42.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, nope.

21:43.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.

21:46.91
Nathan Pile
Thank you. Let's do it a second time.

21:49.68
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah. From Matthew two. After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in the territory of Judea during the rule of King Herod, Magi came from the east to Jerusalem. They asked, where is the newborn king of the Jews? We've seen his star in the east and we've come to honor him. When King Herod heard this, he was troubled and everyone in Jerusalem was troubled with him. He gathered all the chief priests and the legal experts and asked them where the Christ was to be born.

22:20.75
Kevin Shock
They said in Bethlehem of Judea, for this is what the prophet wrote. You, Bethlehem, land of Judah, by no means are you least among the rulers of Judah, because from you will come one who governs, who will shepherd my people Israel. Then Herod secretly called for the Magi and found out from them the time when the star had first appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem saying, go and search carefully for the child. When you found him, report to me so that I too may go and honor him.

22:50.46
Kevin Shock
When they heard the king, they went, and look, the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were filled with joy. They entered the house and saw the child with Mary his mother. Falling to their knees, they honored him. Then they opened their treasure chests and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Because they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they went back to their own country by another route.

23:20.59
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

23:26.00
Nathan Pile
Um, I, one of the things that I felt in your reading, there was a couple, but I'm going to just pick one, um, is that idea of searching for the Christ child. And so that idea, again, epiphany is one of my favorite seasons of the year. Probably if you've listened to the.

23:45.98
Nathan Pile
this podcast for the last two years. Every year when we come around to this season, I probably say that that this is my favorite season and it always is. ah But there's something about this idea of searching for the Christ, searching for um that that is in in who I am as a human being, um that I appreciate in value. So I'm ah I'm an inquisitive human, I guess, in that I love to be out of nature and kind of curious about

24:19.40
Nathan Pile
why why creation nature is made the way that it is and and how it connects to each other. And so they're I'm always searching and asking questions in that space and place. And that that rolls over into my study of theology in the same way. And so there's this idea of being able to search and ask questions. And so these magi, um not in the way that I think of myself as a great scientist and or a,

24:45.76
Nathan Pile
um revered court person because that they kind of had these these kinds of positions in um in society back then. I don't think of myself in either of those places, but but that idea of asking questions and searching out, going and searching and being a part of things. you know I find that one like when we do our canoe trip in the Adirondacks, there's something about that trip, they're the about the exploring in that place that that kind of hits um the spirit for me, you know that my that I feel like I connect to the Holy Spirit and in some new ways um when those kinds of things happen. and so

25:23.29
Nathan Pile
that idea of searching and asking questions is is really a part of who I am as ah as a Christian disciple and so um As I hear this I hear that like keep searching keep asking questions keep searching for God in the world today because God is Alive and and um Working on on things and so how am I?

25:36.51
Kevin Shock
Mm.

25:52.15
Nathan Pile
um

25:54.77
Nathan Pile
searching for God in my in my own um life. i can you know you can We can come be a little complacent in saying, well, God things are happening here where I'm at. and Yeah, sure. um Are we looking for,

26:08.73
Nathan Pile
you know as opposed to just, well, I'm just following tradition. And if I'm following tradition, then God is here. Well, sure, like that can can be true. um I also think that God works beyond our traditions.

26:21.43
Nathan Pile
um because we've created them and they have limitations to them. They're human traditions. And so those limitations, sometimes God just says, well, I'm gonna work beyond those those lines that you've drawn in the sand, humans, because ah sometimes we've excluded people in our work, not sometimes, all the time as human beings, we're excluding people um in our work. And so,

26:49.72
Nathan Pile
So thinking about how we do that. So that searching, those asking questions, I think that's a piece of this passage for me of how do I, I feel called to keep doing that as a part of who I am, a part of my nature is to be continuing to seek out new ways that Jesus is breaking into the world.

27:19.49
Nathan Pile
How about you, my friend? For what is God calling you in this text?

27:23.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's it's similar. but And I think I'm answering this question in an unfair way just because it i was I saw another image or was considering another image as I was rereading it a second time. ah But it's related to that searching.

27:41.69
Kevin Shock
ah The thing that caught my attention the second time through was considering the star. And, um you know, we don't know a lot about the star, but we know that it was some kind of astronomical event.

27:57.65
Kevin Shock
ah it And people from the ah beginning of humankind have looked to the skies for some kind of sign or

28:08.15
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

28:08.89
Kevin Shock
um have tried to interpret things that were happening. ah but But the line that really caught me was the um the the star they had seen in the East went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the child was. um it Stars never stand anywhere.

28:34.08
Kevin Shock
I mean, they keep moving. that That's the whole, and it just got me down this rabbit hole of thinking about the Magi and following the star. And and they went to Bethlehem and lo, the star appears again. um But what what does it mean really? um i mean I mean, how are we to take that text is what I mean. ah Not what does the star mean, because if you're If you're just looking you know if if you're looking up and this this astronomical wonder that you've been following has appeared again and it's directly above you, like for a city the size of Bethlehem, that you could stand anywhere inside Bethlehem and interpret this as the place. um

29:21.31
Kevin Shock
I

29:21.29
Nathan Pile
yeah

29:22.03
Kevin Shock
just and then and

29:23.06
Nathan Pile
They have to come lower in the sky to be able to designate.

29:25.25
Kevin Shock
Right, right, and then if you're and then if you're you're going from Jerusalem where Herod would have been to Bethlehem is, I don't know, it's not a long distance, it's a short distance, what, seven miles or something?

29:36.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, it's under 10 for sure.

29:38.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah, um but but to walk or to ride a camel seven miles takes a little bit of time, so the whole time that's happening, the star is moving, or rather, the earth is moving in relation to the star.

29:52.50
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, I don't know. i just ah it To me, though, it's it's not just the logistics of it. it's um I think for me, what this calls me toward is a a greater sense of wonder of of the ways that um not just that God works in specific situations, although although certainly that's true also, but just the wonder that is inherently present in creation

30:23.66
Kevin Shock
because of, as nature of a being, a creation of God.

30:28.75
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

30:30.79
Kevin Shock
the the god it is It is of the substance that God is, or or it or rather, god God made it to be God-like, I guess, only in the sense that can God make something that is not like God?

30:45.02
Kevin Shock
I don't think so. um So yeah, so there's this this just this inherent wonder that's present in creation, and I really feel like that's something that in this season of life, in this season of the year, ah is is good to pay attention to. ah Yeah, and and so i do think I do think it's related somehow to um so what you were saying about being constantly searching.

31:15.66
Nathan Pile
No.

31:16.37
Kevin Shock
for the presence of Christ, but but this is just a different way to look at the same answer, I think.

31:21.72
Nathan Pile
Well, your comments make me think about, so um again, we don't know a ton about the Magi, but one of the things that we did think that they might spen have spent some time looking at the stars um and that that looking at those stars, um like they would notice when something else shows up. Whereas know many of us might walk outside and not notice a new star in the sky, unless it was really big or it was moving um ah like a drone or a satellite across the sky. when we um you know sometimes and Even during summer camp, it gets so busy here that I forget that like if I stop and look up

32:05.38
Nathan Pile
Like there's amazing things to see up above us and in the night sky. And because it's camp, we don't have a lot of light light pollution.

32:10.59
Kevin Shock
Oh my gosh, yeah.

32:12.63
Nathan Pile
And so like there's things to see. And so um like how often are we paying attention to the sky? Well, these these Magi, part of one of their tasks that they had done was that they had watched the sky.

32:27.42
Nathan Pile
um And so when something different what occurred, they were so intrigued that they said, um let's journey.

32:29.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

32:37.60
Nathan Pile
Now, did they take camels and all of that jazz that our nativity scenes show us? Maybe. um maybe they didn't Maybe they didn't have camels, I don't know.

32:48.44
Nathan Pile
um But they they did take a significant journey from the east to move into this space. um you know endanger like like this that They had to be driven to do this. um It was so intriguing that they they said it it's time to leave our our home and make this significant journey with the risks that will be involved with that journey.

33:17.27
Nathan Pile
um of being mugged, of of starving, of getting sick, of getting law, you know, all of these different things. So, um like the many of those things are not concerns for us today.

33:29.51
Nathan Pile
Like if we take a journey, we're just gonna stop at McDonald's or Burger King and get something to eat and then we're gonna fill up and we're gonna keep moving. um For them, that there was a lot more questions in the journey of this sort.

33:40.22
Kevin Shock
Sure.

33:40.92
Nathan Pile
So there's just something about their, as you say, their awe of what what they're noticing that that drives them to to kind of ah seek more more answers.

33:58.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, your your reflection there reminds me of ah you said you said there's not any light pollution at camp. um probably the place where I have been in with the least light pollution ever in my life ah was in northern Namibia ah when I was on a trip to southern Africa and um as a part of a seminary group. And we did we did what we what were called rural homestays. And but we were at ah we were at a homestead, a family's homestead that was probably about 10 kilometers away from the nearest town, um who which means that would have been how far away electricity was for these people.

34:53.87
Kevin Shock
And you know they we we were staying with the rich people because they had a they did have a compound. I mean, in the most basic sense of ah the term, they had a compound. They had a house. They had servants' quarters. They had outhouses. ah And they had um room for their goats, to like pens for their goats around their house.

35:17.66
Kevin Shock
um and um So there was an electricity nearby anywhere. And one night I they had they relied on like their their referred.

35:28.92
Kevin Shock
They did have a refrigerator. It was propane powered. I'd never seen such a thing. um But and they have like they have like gas lamps and things like that, like fuel lamps. ah But I went outside to use the house one night and I stepped outside and I was in such awe.

35:46.56
Kevin Shock
I have never seen anything like it in my life.

35:48.52
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

35:49.83
Kevin Shock
because also there weren't mountains around. And so you were looking out on the horizon and you were just seeing billions of stars.

35:52.40
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

35:57.52
Nathan Pile
Start.

36:00.75
Kevin Shock
like and Like not just, you know, we think where I live, I think you have to look straight up or you have to look up in the sky to be able to see stars really well. And we live in a place that is fairly low on light pollution, even though we're in a town.

36:08.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

36:14.25
Kevin Shock
But this, you could see you could see the brilliance of stars straight ahead from you. and um And of course, this was also in the southern hemisphere. So I didn't recognize any constellations or anything like that.

36:26.15
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

36:27.30
Kevin Shock
It was it was all unfamiliar, but brilliant. And so your your reflection makes me think that it would have been somewhat similar for the Magi. I mean, they would have been much further away from electricity than I was at that point.

36:42.05
Nathan Pile
Sure, sure.

36:42.44
Kevin Shock
um But um

36:43.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

36:47.21
Kevin Shock
i It just got me thinking, how how wondrous, how amazing, how um how brilliant would that astronomical sign have been for them? in order Because in a in in the in the night sky as I'm envisioning, as I saw it in Namibia, you would have to have something that was breathtaking in order to distinguish it from the rest of all of those stars.

37:18.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

37:20.72
Kevin Shock
It's one thing if we have a, you know, we can easily, where we live, pick out a planet because there's nothing else in the sky so bright. But but in a situation like that, you would, you just have, it just looks like television fuzz all around you, you know, ah like static, essentially, like you're in a snow globe or something.

37:35.77
Nathan Pile
Alright.

37:39.85
Kevin Shock
And ah And for that that, whatever that body was in the sky would have had to have been so bright and so powerful in order for them to stand up and say, let's go journey many, many miles to see what to see what this is.

37:57.32
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

38:01.59
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

38:02.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:03.66
Kevin Shock
Now granted, they were we also think that they were that they were perhaps, or at least one of them was ah ah of the zo Zoroastrian tradition, which is a a monotheistic religion that prizes the presence of God in creation.

38:21.74
Kevin Shock
um And so they would have been probably more attentive to creation and would have been, um astronomers Astronomers or astrologers, like early astrologers, ah in and looking for signs in the night sky.

38:38.69
Kevin Shock
So they would have been tuned to that stuff. But I just can't imagine how brilliant that body would have had to have been for them to say, let's pick up and go.

38:45.45
Nathan Pile
let's Let's leave where we're at and go on a trip that we have no idea where it's going, right?

38:49.87
Kevin Shock
Let's let's take let's take things that are very valuable to us and travel a long distance in order to deliver them to this newborn king.

38:50.12
Nathan Pile
Like, right, right.

38:58.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:58.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah. like and when when that When something like this comes, when you get to one of these situations, I always kind of say, well, what would it take for me to do the same thing?

39:07.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right.

39:08.00
Nathan Pile
Me as a human being, what would it take for me as a human being to do the same thing? like the other thing The other time I ask this question is around the disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection.

39:13.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

39:18.88
Nathan Pile
What would it take for me to become a teacher of people in other countries about Jesus. like There has to be some something significant happens um here.

39:29.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

39:33.46
Nathan Pile
again it's not we don't have it This isn't a history book, but this has been the story that's been passed down. and so something significant brings um visitors from afar, which again, what what could it have been other than we know that it was in the night sky and they call it a star.

39:51.25
Nathan Pile
So.

39:52.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

39:54.66
Nathan Pile
All right. You ready to do this a third time?

39:56.30
Kevin Shock
Yep.

39:56.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Thanks for that conversation. I do enjoy this story.

40:05.46
Nathan Pile
Okay, third time through. After Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in the territory of Judea, during the rule of king King Herod, Magi came from the east to Jerusalem. They asked, where is the newborn king of the Jews? We've seen his star in the east and we've come to honor him. When King Herod heard this, he was troubled, and everyone in Jerusalem was troubled with him. Oh oh my goodness, the whole everyone was.

40:32.49
Nathan Pile
ah He gathered all of the chief priests and the legal experts and asked them where the Christ child was to be born. They said, in Bethlehem of Judea, for this is what the prophet wrote. You, Bethlehem, land of Judah, by no means are you least among the rulers of of Judah, because from you will come one who governs, who will shepherd my people Israel.

40:59.00
Nathan Pile
Then Herod secretly called for the Magi and found out from them the time when the star had been had first appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem, saying, go and search carefully for the child. When you found him, report to me so that I too may go and honor him. When they heard the king, they went. And look, the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the child was.

41:28.02
Nathan Pile
When they saw the star, they were filled with joy. They entered the house and saw the child with Mary, his mother. Falling to their knees, they honored him. Then they opened their treasure chests and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Because they were warned to dream in a dream not to return to Herod. They went back to their own country by another wrath.

41:51.70
Nathan Pile
Well, Kevin, what do you hope to witness in your lifetime?

42:22.48
Kevin Shock
Uh, I, the ah this question, why, why are we talking about this question? This is a big question. Um,

42:32.20
Nathan Pile
Because the guy that did the prep sheet wrote down this question.

42:35.17
Kevin Shock
I know, I know he did.

42:35.48
Nathan Pile
That's what we're talking about it, Kevin.

42:37.26
Kevin Shock
I know he did, what't what a jerk.

42:37.59
Nathan Pile
um

42:38.92
Kevin Shock
um Anyway, um um ah hi yes yeah um I um I really think, I I don't know, it keeps shifting the more that we read this.

42:44.74
Nathan Pile
it's For anybody that doesn't listen, Kevin prepares the prep sheet.

42:56.46
Kevin Shock
i I think where I was at the beginning, where I was when I put that question in the prep sheet is, um i would love to I would love to see a return to, um well, but ah return, I don't know.

43:09.50
Kevin Shock
I I only say return because I experienced it when I was younger. It doesn't necessarily mean it was true for everyone. I would love to see ah communities um coming together for great events more.

43:25.10
Kevin Shock
ah and And I think that, you know, this is, a

43:25.71
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

43:31.04
Kevin Shock
there's There's just so much so much behind this that I i don't know, it says, you know Matthew actually says their, their own country, which does make it sound like they were just from one place. um And their magi, which you know loosely means teachers, not entirely dissimilar to rabbis, ah but we also famously call them kings.

43:58.94
Kevin Shock
ah they They were people who had important position in the in wherever they were. and ah And yet they didn't say to one another, well, you you can, here, I'll give you some frankincense.

44:14.78
Kevin Shock
You go on my behalf.

44:16.40
Nathan Pile
right

44:16.92
Kevin Shock
um they They all saw it fit to go and honor him. They wanted to see him. and um And I think it's just related to this whole yearning in my heart for um a greater focus on ah being rather than doing.

44:37.72
Kevin Shock
ah they they could have if it were If it were just about delivering the gifts, they could have found someone else to do that.

44:40.38
Nathan Pile
Right. Hmm.

44:44.92
Kevin Shock
But it's about them being present in the presence of this king. and um And yet this king also who, you know, it is not old enough to make a deal with them or or broker some kind of alliance or.

44:59.26
Nathan Pile
Right. so Trade agreement.

45:01.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right.

45:02.01
Nathan Pile
I can't do any of that.

45:02.49
Kevin Shock
There's no there's there's there's nothing that they can gain from this king.

45:03.34
Nathan Pile
There's no power yet.

45:08.54
Kevin Shock
um And still they go and and I just there's a there's a longing in my heart that we will. We will have that shared value again at some point.

45:23.59
Kevin Shock
um, that will, that will be willing to take time and, and exert energy just, just to be present for important events and to be community with one another. So, yeah, I guess that's where I, I guess that's where I landed anyway. There's just a lot of, there's a lot of ah wonder in questioning swirling around in my head around this reading right now.

45:49.96
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

45:50.57
Kevin Shock
having engaged it again. It's one of those readings, and I think that this is why we, part of the reason why we do this podcast, Nathan, it's one of those readings that we always, we just always presume to know what the story is.

46:03.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

46:04.15
Kevin Shock
until we then start reading it again and see these little details that pop out to us that maybe we had forgotten about or maybe had overlooked earlier when we learned about it or maybe someone else told us the story and that's what we remember about it and not exactly what's in scripture. So yeah, there's a lot of wonder and questioning swirling in my head. ah What about you though? what's What's something that you long to see in your lifetime?

46:33.67
Nathan Pile
Well, um I would say my my answer now, again, is is always curious to me. when When you read the three questions, because I hadn't looked at the third question um before we started today.

46:45.74
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

46:46.12
Nathan Pile
So when you read that third question, I was like, boy, there's all kinds of things I'd like to witness in my lifetime. um You know, like a a renewed

46:51.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:54.97
Nathan Pile
um

46:58.22
Nathan Pile
or renewed emphasis of the church and all of you know all of those pieces um kind of thing.

47:02.99
Kevin Shock
Sure.

47:03.16
Nathan Pile
And that's still true. you know There's still those pieces. But um I think from this conversation, the thing that um that has me in awe um is to continue to find or continue to see or witness um new magi moving in our world.

47:29.24
Nathan Pile
um So being able to see, and and sure, I guess there's in some some regard, I would wish to be a Magi. um in that i And when I say all of that, it the things that's the actions that you and I have spent time talking about, being able to have been a searcher and and recognizing that that God is doing something different, and then and and then those Magis being brave enough to leave everything, to go,

47:58.51
Nathan Pile
um and to have that in-person encounter, as you say. like They could have sent their interns, but they didn't. um They went. And yes, they brought gifts, but really the bigger piece was them being present in that space. And and I love the piece when you said you know that they they're they're they're not in hopes of trying to negotiate any kind of trade agreement or some kind of financial gain for their country or anything like that because um when they show up in the place of power and and the newborn king isn't there, like, well, we should just go home. We're not going to get anything out of this um that we were hoping to in traditional sense of power and and control or money. um But they keep journeying. They keep going to Bethlehem and eventually come to, you know, a home.

48:54.17
Nathan Pile
um near probably where the stable was that they stayed in, the manger space. So there's a piece here of, of um I think the thing that I hope to witness is future magi, magi that continue um seeking God in ways and then um pointing to God, but also that their story helps us see God.

49:26.83
Nathan Pile
um and And so being inspired by buy those pieces, because you and I spend a lot of time talking about that the church you know God is pruning the church, God is doing some um things to bring about new

49:41.91
Nathan Pile
um new birth, new new life in in the church. And so it's going to take people who continue to trust, who continue to search, who continue to ask questions, who also are so committed that when they see something, when they see that early glimpse of God in the world, they're willing to say, we're going.

50:04.57
Nathan Pile
And then when they get there and point at it for the rest of us to kind of say, oh, wow.

50:05.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

50:09.91
Nathan Pile
um you know, those those individuals are are are brave and are courageous and and leading us in and seeking God. And so, ah yeah, there's a part of this in my lifetime that I hope to be able to see many Magi. ah As I said, you know, selfishly, maybe one day I'd like to be a Magi, but I don't know, you know, again,

50:39.33
Nathan Pile
Like that's not one of those things that I feel like I can just say, well, I'm going to be a Magi. I'm going to be somebody that's looking for, um, it comes because of who they are. It be these, um, Zora Austrian, you know, you know, again, I'm not Kevin and I struggle to give you clear definition around what a Magi is because.

51:04.25
Kevin Shock
I'm I'm looking it up on on Wikipedia right now.

51:06.55
Nathan Pile
there's there's lots of there's lots of there's well there's lots of There's lots of people that that have weighed in on it. and and Again, this isn't a history book. and so they They weren't written about like faithfully about who that this group was. that you know We think that they would be in a privileged class.

51:24.45
Nathan Pile
not at the top of the the the hierarchy, but high enough up there, they're not in the middle and they're definitely not in the bottom end.

51:25.56
Kevin Shock
Sure.

51:31.91
Nathan Pile
um They have enough resources that they have gold, frankincense and myrrh. Frankincense and myrrh were two of the most expensive oils of the time, um essential essential oils of the time.

51:43.68
Nathan Pile
um They had the ability to travel and finances to travel significantly. ah but they also would have had some knowledge. And so these are all things that we know about them.

51:54.83
Nathan Pile
So that they have some knowledge and and the financial piece isn't so so important other than it gave them the freedom to go and explore.

51:55.84
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

52:03.65
Nathan Pile
um And somebody trusts them enough to let them go do this. whoever they're Whoever they reported to, it was above them said, yeah, go find out what you see.

52:11.34
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

52:12.85
Nathan Pile
So they do their job well enough that they're trusted to do those kinds of things. And so, um You know, to have those, what you know, again, some of the other words we use for them are are wise men.

52:27.42
Nathan Pile
um

52:28.68
Kevin Shock
Mmhmm.

52:29.75
Nathan Pile
And so these wise, knowledge-filled, but I would also venture to say risk-takers are courageous enough to to kind of put themselves out there to kind of see, we had we we we've noticed something, now we need to go and and and find out more about it and and essentially honor what we find. um And it's not about, again, as you said, not about power, not about any of those pieces. and so So for me it's witnessing that. It's witnessing God at work in the world and and and God and inspiring it and encouraging others to be those wise individuals of today that go and

53:13.40
Nathan Pile
and um say here, this is God and this is important, um and brings honor to that moment, but also is ah is a guide for the rest of us who are seeking God. And I think today more and more people are seeking to be in touch with with God, but just seem lost and confused of how to go about doing it. And so we need we need Magi to lead us again.

53:46.57
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, I I mean, I'm, yeah, hearing you talk about that. There's, it's an uncertain term, although there are certainly um things that we are

54:00.81
Nathan Pile
ideas and concepts around it that we have.

54:02.07
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, concepts around it. I think it's even more uncertain in our kind of maybe what adds to uncertainty is our scientific age that we live in. um But ah on Wikipedia, again, it's Wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth.

54:11.98
Nathan Pile
yeah

54:17.34
Kevin Shock
But I think that for stuff like this, that could be pretty helpful. um it It simply it simply like says a magus or plural magi is the um is a Zoroastrian priest.

54:30.91
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

54:31.26
Kevin Shock
um but But related to that is all of the like the star stuff that you and I were talking about.

54:36.84
Nathan Pile
No.

54:36.88
Kevin Shock
um Magus magi is related to magikos, the Greek word for magic.

54:42.03
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

54:44.25
Kevin Shock
um you know they're They're magicians, they're they're astronomers, they're astrologers, they're alchemists. they're um they yeah they they have a um They have a history of working

54:52.15
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

55:02.17
Kevin Shock
looking for signs and working with the natural world. But there's also a sense of wisdom about, you know, they have a sense that there's something greater than just what we perceive, ah ah which, of course, we get that from this reading, too. um But even it's, set you know, there are looking through all the stuff on Wikipedia, there's um in the in the Talmud, in the in the Jewish ah commentaries and teachings off of the Torah, it talks about how rabbis and magi had discussions with one another, um that this that they were, you know, they talked together, they they divined together, so to speak. um Yeah, but it is there's it's wrapped up in wisdom, it's wrapped up in teaching, it's wrapped up in priesthood, that terminology.

55:55.40
Kevin Shock
um Right, so again, You can usually just send one priest if there's some need that needs that has to be addressed, but three of them go.

56:06.90
Kevin Shock
so And there may be significance in that number too.

56:11.99
Nathan Pile
Right Holy yeah in the Christian Church yeah or well not in just a Christian Church in the Hebrew faith as well Jewish faith

56:12.48
Kevin Shock
Of course, three is a three is a number of significance in in scripture, sure. Yeah, yep. Right.

56:22.71
Kevin Shock
right there were the it it It brings to mind for me the the three holy messengers who visited Abraham and Sarah. and said they would give birth to a nation.

56:33.98
Kevin Shock
And here's a yeah here's the here's the newborn king receiving three holy messengers as well and and in and in a different form, but yes.

56:41.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

56:47.89
Kevin Shock
All right, good. So um some additional texts as you're thinking about Epiphany and that revealing of ah Christ to the to not just his own nation, ah but people of many nations. And in fact, in this reading, it seems like he's he remains hidden to those in his own nation for a little while because they're freaking out that he's been born. And and ah and the one in charge wants to want to kill him because of that.

57:20.66
Kevin Shock
um So Isaiah chapter 60 verses 1 through 6 nations come to the light ah from Psalm 72 verses 1 through 7 and 10 through 14 all kings shall bow down before him and Ephesians 3 verses 1 through 12 the Gospels promise extends to all and So I hope that you all have some end of Christmas season, beginning of epiphany reflections um that you are willing to share with us on social media or email.

57:56.21
Kevin Shock
um But certainly we um we have our own reflections that we'll keep reflecting on as time goes on. And I thank you, Nathan, for the discussion.

58:03.88
Nathan Pile
Thank you, Kevin.

58:05.28
Kevin Shock
And ah friends friends, we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

58:10.32
Nathan Pile
And peace.