Episode 12: 1 Corinthians 13:1-13

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:
What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?
Toward what is God calling you in this text?
What in your life begs more love, in receiving or giving?

Additional texts:
Jeremiah 1:4-10
Psalm 71:1-6
Luke 4:21-30
Malachi 3:1-4
Psalm 84
Psalm 24:7-10 (alternate)
Hebrews 2:14-18
Luke 2:22-40

Transcript

00:00:01.78
Kevin Shock
Hello friends, it's time to talk about holy things.

00:00:06.63
Kevin Shock
So we're going to do that, me and Nathan. And you can either listen.

00:00:11.56
Nathan Pile
Holy things like out like a whole pizza or like what holy things.

00:00:15.06
Kevin Shock
Oh, no, bagels, like bagels.

00:00:17.63
Nathan Pile
Bagels. Oh, donuts.

00:00:20.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah, donuts, but yeah, not filled though.

00:00:20.22
Nathan Pile
Sweet. Donuts and not filled donuts. Only.

00:00:24.20
Kevin Shock
Right, yeah.

00:00:25.66
Nathan Pile
Okay, got it.

00:00:26.95
Kevin Shock
Oh my goodness. um We are going to be ah engaging a familiar text today. ah One that you probably hear a lot when you're going to weddings.

00:00:38.61
Kevin Shock
1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 1 through 13. We touched on that. I don't even remember Nathan in the last episode. um we We kind of, oh, I I was, I was

00:00:50.76
Nathan Pile
we were talking about the end of chapter 12.

00:00:53.79
Kevin Shock
Yes, I was commenting about the reading that comes before this. Um, we didn't do, we didn't engage that reading, but it was in my mind. So, so we are talking about first Corinthians 13 today, and we're using the common English Bible.

00:01:08.91
Kevin Shock
Um, hopefully a little bit.

00:01:09.41
Nathan Pile
I think to help your memory, it was you were answering a question

00:01:14.39
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:01:14.40
Nathan Pile
with a text that we didn't read.

00:01:17.42
Kevin Shock
That's correct.

00:01:17.83
Nathan Pile
yeah know Just, know, just to throw you under the bus.

00:01:18.29
Kevin Shock
I was.

00:01:21.40
Nathan Pile
That's that's how it went down.

00:01:22.05
Kevin Shock
Well, sometimes that happens. um I did I felt like I did talk about the text we were talking about, but then I was also, yes, very much influenced by another text.

00:01:30.83
Nathan Pile
You did, you did.

00:01:35.76
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, so we're going to use the common English Bible and maybe hearing this text in slightly different verbiage than what we're used to ah might help unlock some new things about it. That's kind of why we bounce around from translation to translation sometimes.

00:01:53.78
Kevin Shock
um And we have three questions today that we're going to use to engage this text. What word phrase or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And what in your life begs more love in giving or receiving?

00:02:15.86
Nathan Pile
Wow, Kevin. um Yeah, I'm I'm not even sure if I fully understand what that question says yet. So I'll look forward to when we get there.

00:02:26.24
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:02:26.46
Nathan Pile
Some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white in our late forties for one more month for one of us. um College and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran church and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

00:02:46.74
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we're interested to know what you hear and think from your life experience as you encounter scripture. Today's reading, 1 Corinthians the 13th chapter,

00:03:15.89
Nathan Pile
verses one through 13. If I speak in tongues of human beings and of angels, but I don't have love, I'm a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and I know all the mysteries and everything else, and if I have such complete faith that I can move mountains, but I don't have love, I'm nothing.

00:03:44.50
Nathan Pile
If I give away everything that I have and hand over my own body to feel good about what I've done, but I don't have love, I receive no benefit whatsoever. Love is patient. Love is kind. It isn't jealous. It isn't it doesn't brag. It isn't arrogant. It isn't rude. It doesn't seek its own advantage. It isn't irritable. It doesn't keep a record of complaints.

00:04:14.59
Nathan Pile
It isn't happy with injustice, but it is happy with the truth. Love puts up with all things, trusts all things, hopes for all things, and endures all things. Love never fails. As for prophecies, they will be brought to an end. As for tongues, they will stop. As for knowledge, it will be brought to an end. We know in part and we prophesy in part.

00:04:45.12
Nathan Pile
But when the perfect comes, what is partial will be brought to an end. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, reason like a child, think like a child. But now that I have become a man, I've put an end to childish things. Now we see a reflection in a mirror. Then we will see face to face.

00:05:10.06
Nathan Pile
Now I know partially, but then I will know completely in the same way that I have been completely known. Now faith, hope and love remain. These three things and the greatest of these is love.

00:05:28.57
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. um Well, Kevin.

00:05:39.86
Nathan Pile
What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

00:05:45.38
Kevin Shock
um childish things i i'm i'm a bit thrown off by that just because Jesus tells his disciples that unless they receive the kingdom as a child they will not enter it um so I'm I'm I'm a little bit thrown off by Paul's assertion here that giving up childish things is the right thing to do.

00:06:16.85
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, but I, I mean, I think, I think I understand what he's getting at. Uh, but I'm just, I'm a bit thrown off by the childish part.

00:06:33.78
Kevin Shock
That's yeah.

00:06:35.96
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:06:36.45
Kevin Shock
That's all. Can you explain it to me?

00:06:39.68
Nathan Pile
Uh, no.

00:06:41.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no, I didn't think so.

00:06:42.32
Nathan Pile
I like to read Paul. um I am challenged by Paul at times, but I am not Paul. So I when we get to that word in particularly and why he chose it here, I don't know.

00:06:52.98
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:06:59.21
Nathan Pile
Maybe he was remembering when he used to get bullied by kids. I don't know. because he had long years.

00:07:05.32
Kevin Shock
Or if we're talking about Paul, maybe he remembered,

00:07:06.93
Nathan Pile
He had long years.

00:07:08.59
Kevin Shock
Maybe we were, he remembered when he was bullying people.

00:07:12.66
Nathan Pile
Maybe, maybe.

00:07:14.81
Kevin Shock
I mean, we know a little bit about Paul's history.

00:07:17.17
Nathan Pile
Well, when he was a young, when he was a young Pharisee, absolutely, like he was all about trying to make himself look good.

00:07:27.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:07:27.89
Nathan Pile
um

00:07:28.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, okay. That, that helps me, uh, that yes, that I wonder if.

00:07:37.66
Kevin Shock
I don't want to, I'm not interested in rewriting Paul. I'm just trying to, I'm just interested in making it make more sense for me. And, and what I think about is selfish things more than childish things.

00:07:52.12
Kevin Shock
Um, what you said, what you said there about he, he was interested in making himself look good.

00:07:52.22
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

00:07:58.25
Kevin Shock
and Something I was thinking about as I was reading this, um, to prepare for the podcast. is that um there are there's a lot of interest in in amongst people in the Christian tradition in pursuing righteousness and you know making sure, I mean, different people have different understandings of what that word means.

00:08:31.75
Kevin Shock
But the first five letters of the word righteous are right. And so sometimes when people are pursuing righteousness, we see them slipping into a need to be right about things.

00:08:43.38
Nathan Pile
Knowledge.

00:08:44.88
Kevin Shock
and And what I do take from this reading is I think, you know, Paul talks about prophecy. What what else does he talk about? um Knowledge.

00:08:57.15
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah, those kinds of things. I think we could add righteousness to that list too.

00:09:00.88
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:09:04.65
Kevin Shock
that um you know, righteousness has its place in the life of a follower of God, a follower of Jesus. But if we are pursuing righteousness without having love, it doesn't amount to anything.

00:09:22.61
Kevin Shock
And, um and of course, i'm I mean, I don't, of course, we know, you and I know that the love we're talking about here is not an emotional love. It's a,

00:09:35.83
Kevin Shock
self-giving love, not self-seeking, but self-giving.

00:09:41.66
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Yes. Yeah.

00:09:44.30
Kevin Shock
And um yeah, so if if we are if we are giving if we are showing love, giving of ourselves, then righteousness will have its place, but it won't it it will it will keep the boundaries of its place, I guess is what I'm thinking about.

00:10:06.46
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Well, and, and um, your, um, reflection there of, of talking about love, um, you know, that love is a way that we serve others. Um, a lot of times we think of, you know, like a childish way of thinking would be, Hey daddy, I love you. Can I have a cookie?

00:10:36.54
Kevin Shock
So like, yeah, yeah using using the concept of love to get what we want.

00:10:42.43
Nathan Pile
right Right, and so that idea of when it when Paul is saying, you know, I speak like a child, I reason like a child, I think like a child, um it was much more, you know, as a child, ah as I was a kid, A, the world felt like it was black and white.

00:10:44.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:11:01.85
Nathan Pile
Some of that was created by my parents to give me structure as a child. I've done the same as a parent for my child. I've tried to say, this is what you do. um

00:11:13.05
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:11:13.63
Nathan Pile
And so there's this idea of what's exactly right and what's exactly wrong. The problem is as you get older, you realize the world is a little bit more gray or a lot more gray and definitively of what's right and wrong.

00:11:21.77
Kevin Shock
Mm.

00:11:26.80
Nathan Pile
ah And so that idea of of loving to serve others right and wrong, I think it can be harder to to to to live simply that way. A topic for today could very easily be, you know you know our do are all people loved by God? you know and And there would be some churches and faith traditions that would say, absolutely, that's true. um And there would be others who would say, well, God might love them.

00:12:09.61
Nathan Pile
but they're a second-class citizen or there's there's a right and wrong here. ah They're living in sin or something like that.

00:12:15.14
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:12:16.52
Nathan Pile
So there' you know it gets more complicated when we recognize how different we are from each other and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

00:12:17.82
Kevin Shock
yep

00:12:27.03
Nathan Pile
And so then, well, then then maybe this is a right and I'm trying to make it black and white and its it's probably closer to gray and how do we live into the gray by loving the other person, because the other person is deserves deserves dignity too, deserves freedom and rights and all of those things.

00:12:43.11
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:12:46.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:12:48.64
Nathan Pile
And so our world oftentimes, well, we as human beings oftentimes want a black and white guide guidance um

00:13:05.51
Kevin Shock
Mhm.

00:13:05.86
Nathan Pile
the boundaries that that we provided in youth to keep people safe you know to keep kids safe, to to help them try to understand the world. But then that blurs, I think, a little bit.

00:13:19.56
Nathan Pile
so And I think that would fit with what Paul's trying to argue here, of what that looks like.

00:13:26.17
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:13:29.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah, i'm i'm I'm glad you brought that up because I do think that that is i think that relates directly to what I was trying to say about righteousness. that there there are i mean I agree with you, Nathan, that not everything about life in the world and humanity is so easily defined.

00:13:39.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

00:13:50.75
Kevin Shock
there's a lot of There are a lot of unfocused gray areas. um There are people who I think who would disagree with you.

00:14:01.89
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:14:01.96
Kevin Shock
that that there's That there's truth and truth tells us what is right and what is wrong. But I don't really, I don't think that that's a very nuanced view of what humankind has to deal with, what relationships are like.

00:14:21.89
Kevin Shock
um But what love does in a world where things are unfocused and fuzzy and not easily defined, ah love helps fill in the gaps.

00:14:34.39
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:36.44
Kevin Shock
Well, no, it doesn't help fill in the gaps. Love does fill in the gaps.

00:14:39.07
Nathan Pile
Does fill in the gaps.

00:14:40.47
Kevin Shock
um And love enables us to be in relationship with one another, even if we can't easily define what that relationship should be.

00:14:49.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:14:51.13
Kevin Shock
And so love being the, love being the foundation that we rest on, love being the default that we, or the the the way of living that we default to doesn't necessarily clear things up, but it does give us a way to live into who we are as human beings.

00:15:11.44
Kevin Shock
um

00:15:14.19
Nathan Pile
Well, it allows us to to to value and appreciate the human for who the human is.

00:15:14.42
Kevin Shock
And.

00:15:21.99
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:15:23.62
Nathan Pile
As opposed to saying, you're you're not meeting whatever standard we feel like you should be meeting.

00:15:24.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:32.98
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah. And and so, ah I mean, again, it's not it's not my way of living into being a follower of Jesus, ah but I do feel like if if I were to say to somebody, God loves you,

00:15:53.19
Kevin Shock
and I put any kind of "but" on that, any kind of condition, then then it does not, um ah it it doesn't it doesn't indicate that I'm living in a way of love with that person that I'm engaging with, that I'm talking to.

00:15:57.39
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:16:15.82
Kevin Shock
It indicates otherwise. God loves you, parentheses, theoretically, but you have this thing that I think, no, parentheses, and no, but to be wrong, or you have done this thing, or you are doing this thing. And so God does not love you until you fix that. I think I think that that's what is heard whenever whenever there's like,

00:16:51.51
Kevin Shock
there is a love the sinner, hate the sin kind of conversation going around. ah Because you're you're intermingling the word love with the word hate there. So that creates an unfocused, a fuzzy area about what love actually is. And when you're saying, I love the sinner, but hate the sin, I feel like there's a good chance that you're not loving the sinner.

00:17:20.24
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:17:21.07
Kevin Shock
And I understand I understand the comeback to that of, well, if you love someone, you're not going to let them persist in something that separates them from God. um

00:17:35.51
Kevin Shock
First of all, to know the mind of God and what what separates whenever god when Paul tells us elsewhere in the letter that ah that nothing in heaven or on earth could separate us from the love of God.

00:17:48.86
Kevin Shock
ah That's a dangerous, so right there, there's a fuzzy that scripture creates, that put fit that we know that one author in scripture that we know creates.

00:17:52.52
Nathan Pile
Right. Right. Right.

00:18:01.98
Kevin Shock
Well, I mean, he's perfectly in line with what he's saying here. He's not he's not contradicting himself in those two things. ah

00:18:12.63
Kevin Shock
I just I think that we we have to be, We have to be really careful about how we deal in things like righteousness and truth, because as Paul says here, if we do them without love, they mean nothing. They mean nothing. We we are never we are never going to, I don't even wanna say, we're we're never gonna convince, and that's not the word I like to use for it, but we're not gonna welcome someone into the love of Jesus if we're not operating with love ourselves.

00:18:47.87
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:18:48.85
Kevin Shock
if we're If we're not working on building relationship, but just defining relationship, you're not welcome here if you keep doing this. Or in order to be welcome here, you have to be this way. um that's not That's not love. It's just, it's not love. And again, ah allowing, you know, loving someone isn't allowing them to persist in sin.

00:19:18.33
Kevin Shock
Well, ah ah yes, I understand that sentiment.

00:19:24.83
Nathan Pile
And yet Jesus came to us despite of our sin, like, like.

00:19:25.15
Kevin Shock
And right,

00:19:30.66
Kevin Shock
right, right. and And Jesus transforms us. and And you and I, I mean, to break it down in a very ah unfuzzy Lutheran way,

00:19:43.53
Kevin Shock
it's not It's not the law that saves us. It's the law and the gospel together.

00:19:48.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:19:49.14
Kevin Shock
and And so if someone can point to something in the law and say, you have to change this about yourself before you're in God's good graces, completely misunderstands what the gospel says.

00:20:03.48
Nathan Pile
correct, yeah

00:20:05.36
Kevin Shock
um The whole point of the gospel is that the law is by itself is insufficient.

00:20:13.56
Kevin Shock
um But as Jesus says, if we are loving our neighbor, if we're loving God, it fulfills all of the law.

00:20:26.72
Kevin Shock
And I think that's what Paul's getting at here, too.

00:20:30.96
Kevin Shock
Okay, I'm going to stop talking because I feel like I can just talk circles around this for

00:20:35.41
Nathan Pile
Well, but a part of this is, again, for us to remember, Paul was a Pharisee. And so the law meant something to Paul.

00:20:44.71
Kevin Shock
Was everything for Paul.

00:20:45.19
Nathan Pile
Like it was it was everything at the beginning of his ministry and and and living out every possible ah comma period ah word of the law was was his goal.

00:20:48.89
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:20:58.62
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:21:00.43
Nathan Pile
And and he's transformed with his encounter with the Christ in such a way that now he's saying to the world, you gotta to have grace, folks.

00:21:12.95
Nathan Pile
This has to be, it is law and gospel. It it is together.

00:21:18.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:21:19.08
Nathan Pile
um But our God is is a God of grace. And so um God, you know, yeah, so yeah, it's good.

00:21:35.00
Nathan Pile
ah I'm so entwined in your reflection.

00:21:37.08
Kevin Shock
What about you, Nathan?

00:21:38.93
Nathan Pile
I have to go back and think about what my word was now. um

00:21:45.52
Nathan Pile
um

00:21:48.53
Nathan Pile
So part of my personality and you as my friend um ah probably can

00:22:01.79
Nathan Pile
say that this is true about me. Maybe maybe you won't, but um in my, as I think about myself, as I do some self-reflection, one of the things that I strive to do or that is like somehow become a moniker or value for me is that when when I die, I want to be all used up.

00:22:21.81
Nathan Pile
what I want God to have used up all of my um love and service and and all of that as a part, it's like a value for me, right?

00:22:24.72
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:22:29.98
Nathan Pile
And so that's kind of the way

00:22:30.31
Kevin Shock
ah've I've heard you say that.

00:22:31.98
Nathan Pile
Yeah, and so it's kind of a way that I live my life. So this third verse of, if I give away everything that I have and hand over my my own body to feel good about what I've done, but I don't have love, I receive no benefit whatsoever. So that today, as you read are as as I read it, it was kind of like, hmm, okay, so I have to watch my own, it's like everything that we talk about.

00:22:58.16
Nathan Pile
um like too much of a good thing, it also corrupts us. And so if serving it in the this way, but I forget to love my neighbor, I forget to love the staff that I work with, if I forget to um love my family, my friends, you know if I forget those pieces, if I forget to love the stranger, then

00:23:29.42
Nathan Pile
than striving to live out this value of service as a disciple of Christ. If I haven't been loving to others, then than it really hasn't been worth what I'm doing. Now, I hope most days that I try to be loving.

00:23:48.49
Nathan Pile
um that ah you know that that value of trying to live out my life. So it was just that verse, the way, again, the wording with this different translation, just just maybe a different word or two words that made me feel a little bit about like how I have to be cautious of, oh, I feel good about how I serve today. Like the next question should be very quickly, was I loving everywhere with everyone?

00:24:14.78
Nathan Pile
you know um and what that looks like. And so um as some kind of a barometer for myself of being able to kind of say, again, we can get caught up in our own to-do lists, our own hum our own agenda.

00:24:31.50
Kevin Shock
Uh,

00:24:37.21
Kevin Shock
ah biases? Yeah.

00:24:42.16
Nathan Pile
Lost sound.

00:24:44.05
Kevin Shock
Oh, Nathan. Yeah, I'm going to talk while Nathan figures out what's going on. Uh, our own to-do lists, he said, but also, uh, I think our own biases, biases and our own opinions. Uh, that's a word that I find myself coming back to over and over again that we, we value.

00:25:09.60
Kevin Shock
We as human beings are in a place in our society where we value more what we think than how we act. And I think that that gets us in a dangerous place of if someone doesn't agree with me, then they're not worthy of my time. ah If someone doesn't share the same values that I do as I define them, then I'm not going to waste any time engaging with them.

00:25:36.78
Kevin Shock
And that doesn't allow us to grow. It it keeps us, it's it stunts our growth as a society. And I'm I'm I'm fearful about the way that I see those things happening in our world right now.

00:25:53.95
Kevin Shock
All right. So let's look at it a second time and see where the, where things lead us. From 1 Corinthians 13, if I speak in tongues of human beings and of angels but I don't have love, I'm a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and I know all the mysteries and everything else, and if I have such complete faith that I can move mountains but I don't have love, I'm nothing. If I give away everything that I have and hand over my own body to feel good about what I've done but I don't have love, I receive no benefit whatsoever.

00:26:07.66
Kevin Shock
Love is patient, love is kind, it isn't jealous, it doesn't brag, it isn't arrogant. It isn't rude, it doesn't seek its own advantage, it isn't irritable, it doesn't keep a record of complaints, it isn't happy with injustice, but is happy with the truth. Love puts up with all things, trusts in all things, hopes for all things, endures all things. Love never fails. As for prophecies, they will be brought to an end. As for tongues, they will stop. As for knowledge, it will be brought to an end.

00:26:38.65
Kevin Shock
We know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, what is partial will be brought to an end. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, reason like a child, think like a child. But now that I have become a man, I've put an end to childish things. Now we see a reflection in a mirror, then we will see face to face. Now I know partially, but then I will know completely in the same way that I have been completely known.

00:27:06.24
Kevin Shock
Now faith, hope, and love remain, these three things. And the greatest of these is love. Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:27:15.74
Nathan Pile
I feel like the right answer is love.

00:27:20.12
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. Great. We can, we can move on then.

--------------------------------- 5 Min Change

00:27:27.50
Nathan Pile
um I think the place that that strikes me the most of that is that those verses four through seven um as as Paul is trying to tell us what love is. um It's a pretty um

00:27:46.97
Nathan Pile
and it's it's a It's a very good list of what love is. um I think it's a little intimidating um to that as a disciple, I'm trying to live this way in my community. And I've said this before, um I think it was last week or maybe two weeks ago when I talked about, and I am just going to absolutely fail at it.

00:28:12.84
Nathan Pile
um because of of of the the the length and the description of what love is. Like I know, even the first part of verse four talks about love is patient and like, I know there's days I'm not patient enough.

00:28:31.94
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:28:33.16
Nathan Pile
you Like I'm not even gonna, it's not that I'm gonna fail.

00:28:34.02
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:28:36.25
Nathan Pile
I'm gonna I'm I'm failing on the first sentence of what, um of what love is, and yet that is something that I do feel like we're called for, called to, um

00:28:50.95
Nathan Pile
for for all of the things that are there. um Seeking truth, hoping for the future, um recognizing that there are gonna be certain things that we have to endure. ah you know and And being able to,

00:29:09.38
Nathan Pile
ah

00:29:13.25
Nathan Pile
to be humble enough to live in relationship with others. and and um And this goes back to the childish ways things. I think about a baby and like when a baby wants a bottle, what do they do?

00:29:26.86
Nathan Pile
Cry. When a baby wants their diaper changed, what do they do?

00:29:28.22
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:29:31.60
Nathan Pile
Cry. And and um and you already talked about this that maybe and a better word for childish would be selfish. um and And my selfishness, my selfish sides will get in the way of love more than I want it to. And so how do I keep trying to love? How do I keep practicing love? Recognizing that there are gonna be some days that I am gonna fail miserably at it and that I need the people around me to forgive me.

00:30:07.09
Nathan Pile
because I failed miserably at it yesterday. um But I'm gonna try again tomorrow. I'm gonna try again the day after that, you know, that to to be more in line with this definition of love.

00:30:22.98
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:30:25.81
Nathan Pile
So love is what I feel called toward Kevin, love.

00:30:31.02
Kevin Shock
Okay, yeah.

00:30:32.94
Nathan Pile
How about you, my friend? what What do you feel God calling you towards in this passage?

00:30:41.31
Kevin Shock
Oh boy. um Love.

00:30:48.81
Nathan Pile
All right, we got the same thing from it. This is the first time ever.

00:30:51.64
Kevin Shock
oh but No, it's not. um Also, ah yeah, um I'm gonna try to nuance that a little bit. The thing that really stuck out to me as I heard you reading this, or no, I'm sorry, as I read it, um i I didn't have it up when I was trying to listen to you read it, and now I'm looking at it, ah is that first line.

00:31:19.89
Kevin Shock
I, fwoo

00:31:26.86
Kevin Shock
where Where I feel like I get in trouble, and I won't speak for every human being, is if I'm talking about someone else, or or I'm or I'm talking about God from any position other than love.

00:31:38.49
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:31:49.84
Kevin Shock
and and either that I'm um filled with love for the people to whom I'm talking about God, or if 
I or I'm talking about God as love. you know God is love. We hear that in 1 John.

00:32:10.76
Kevin Shock
um

00:32:14.00
Kevin Shock
but if i'm If I'm talking about somebody else or I'm talking about God and I don't have love, I'm gonna get myself into trouble. so So two things I feel called towards. Stop talking.

00:32:31.01
Kevin Shock
it's if I mean you know you were You were talking earlier, Nathan, about ah the the tiny little things that the rights and wrongs we learn when we're kids to try to define us into a good way of living.

00:32:44.76
Kevin Shock
ah if you If you don't have anything nice to say about anybody,

00:32:46.74
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:32:50.27
Kevin Shock
don't say anything at all. i i My generation learned that. ah i I have to be on Facebook for all of 30 seconds to see how my generation has completely forgotten that.

00:33:03.83
Nathan Pile
Mmm

00:33:06.22
Kevin Shock
I mean, really. i you know the i i think that I think that a good example of this for me is the amount of times now that I realize that I see someone

00:33:17.77
Kevin Shock
hosting things or commenting things on social media, someone that I might completely agree with their standpoint, but I cannot get behind them. Because the the method that they're using just alienates other people. It doesn't do anything to change the world or even to change one person.

00:33:42.96
Kevin Shock
And I think that that's the problem that we get into as, as followers of Jesus too. And I think that this is Paul puts spiritual language on that problem. That if, if we're talking about other people or we're talking about God, but love isn't a part of it, then we're, no one's going to listen to us. We're just, we're that, we're that clanging gong or that clashing symbol we're going to be.

00:34:08.99
Kevin Shock
We're going to be Charlie Brown's teacher. We're going to be blah, blah, blah. No one is ever going to hear anything that we have to say, even if it's something good, because we're not saying it from a position of love. We're not having love as our foundation. And so yeah, I feel called to stop talking. If I'm not, if I'm not certain that I'm speaking from a position of love.

00:34:33.13
Kevin Shock
and um And so then the second part of that is to make sure that I'm speaking from a position, a foundation of love if I'm going to say something to or about somebody. And that's, I mean,

00:34:51.66
Kevin Shock
I'm going to be honest. I think, uh, I think it's probably would be, uh, a better, a better way for me to go through, through the world to just, uh, just keeping silence the rest of my life.

00:35:05.62
Kevin Shock
Cause I know as you, as you said, I know how much I fail miserably at not employing love when I'm talking about things or people or God or yeah.

00:35:07.56
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:35:17.61
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah. Yeah. and And I have a relationship with someone in my life, ah ah ah a primary relationship where um I I even noticed that I I say things from a position from what I feel is a position of love. And um there are people in the I've come to realize that there are people in the world who have

00:35:52.39
Kevin Shock
I don't know, who who are so used to hearing things from not a position of love that even things that are said in a loving, in what I think is a loving manner cannot can come across as not being that. And so um I'll I'll be honest, there are times in my life where I think, why do I have to be so careful about what I say? Why can't I just speak freely?

00:36:20.29
Kevin Shock
um And this this reading today is convicting me that um you can keep asking that question, Kevin, but you're you're going to learn one day that it's it's not healthy to just speak freely.

00:36:36.94
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:36:39.22
Kevin Shock
And unless unless you're speaking freely about good and holy things, then then do it all you want. But if you're speaking freely because you're ticked off at somebody else,

00:36:53.04
Kevin Shock
and you want to tell them what you really think about them, or or you're um you're you're saying things, not considering how the other person might receive them, then it's probably best just to be quiet.

00:37:07.47
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

00:37:12.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah, you say some powerful things um for us all to consider and and to think about because we do seem to in in our day and age um that what I would consider to be grandma's wisdom or you could say grandparents wisdom that gave us that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

00:37:38.00
Nathan Pile
um

00:37:42.00
Nathan Pile
we we have We seem to have put that on the back burner. And and um and how do we how do we humble ourselves enough to hold our tongue a little bit more instead of um laying down criticism or um judgment upon others when we don't really know, haven't really experienced what the other has. You know, ah you know your example of having having individuals who,

00:38:31.36
Nathan Pile
who

00:38:35.45
Nathan Pile
struggle with hearing things that you might say in love, it's still not loving because they don't have enough experience of what love is, even in their own lives.

00:38:46.92
Nathan Pile
um Because love isn't, are not the same, right?

00:38:48.23
Kevin Shock
Or not, or not the same, not the same experience. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:52.26
Nathan Pile
But but that there's that idea of, well, love isn't just about, you know, we were talking about this a little earlier about, you know, love of holding somebody accountable

00:39:04.93
Nathan Pile
for their words, right? You know, yeah I'm just not gonna let my loved one live that way. Okay, but is this really about their comfort or is it about your comfort?

00:39:16.72
Nathan Pile
You know, kind of a piece.

00:39:17.83
Kevin Shock
Oh, well, that's the other thing.

00:39:18.21
Nathan Pile
And so, you know, yeah, that other piece that we were talking about earlier of, of um i'm I'm saying that I'm responding to you in love and yet, is that really love or is it about

00:39:19.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:39:32.84
Nathan Pile
you feeling more comfortable being in my presence kind of a thing.

00:39:36.64
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:39:38.78
Nathan Pile
And so, yeah, how do we, because we all experience love differently from our from our our families, from our friends, from the context and communities that we grew up in, all all of that's gonna be a little different.

00:39:57.84
Nathan Pile
And so how, you know, as we live into love, It's allowing that there's enough space,

00:40:11.36
Nathan Pile
um slack in the line, gray area, um so that so that someone can be who they are in that space and place that you're also in. Because we're gonna be different in in ways that that I don't know about you now. You and I spend a significant amount of time together. So we've wit we've whittled into each other's lives in ways that help us understand each other a little bit better. But for people at the local basketball game that I go and sit next to, unless I spend the same amount of time in relationship with them as I do with you, I don't necessarily

00:41:00.06
Nathan Pile
I don't have that same understanding of them and who they are as I do with you. And that comes with time, that comes with living in love and practicing love and trying to get to know them because you know my first response might be, I don't need to spend any more time with that person.

00:41:06.83
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:41:18.84
Kevin Shock
Right. Mm hmm.

00:41:20.94
Nathan Pile
but But if I do, it will help me envision what God intends for me to be in a loving relationship with them. I will get to see more of them as an individual and who they are and see that they have some really amazing parts of who they are that I might not have given if I if I make judgment about them.

00:41:49.58
Nathan Pile
um too quickly or or decide that they're you and not good friend material, then then I don't really get to know who they are and value them for in the way that God sees them.

00:42:05.20
Nathan Pile
And so being able to live that way, um this idea of love calls us into that.

00:42:05.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:42:12.46
Nathan Pile
and and And not just once, but over and over and over again, which can feel exhausting.

00:42:17.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:24.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:42:24.49
Nathan Pile
You know, I think being honest as an, as an adult, it's harder to like the idea of making friends seems harder than it was when I was a kid, even though making friends as a kid was hard.

00:42:25.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:38.00
Nathan Pile
Like, do I really want to put the time and energy into it? The answer needs to be yes.

00:42:46.45
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:42:46.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. It takes time.

00:42:49.89
Nathan Pile
it takes time.

00:42:50.23
Kevin Shock
It takes time. It takes intention.

00:42:51.39
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:42:52.78
Kevin Shock
um I um I I remember, I'm sure I've talked about this on an episode before, but um I'm trying to remember the author's name.

00:43:05.37
Kevin Shock
Henry French, I think is his name. wrote a great little book on prayer. um I don't know when he wrote it, but and I haven't read it for many years now, but um but the one thing that I do remember among several things from that book, the one thing I do remember is the section on praying for your enemies. um And come and but I like the way that French writes the book because He talks about things, but then in the back of the book, there's kind of a, there's a work section.

00:43:40.47
Kevin Shock
It's a, how do you enact these practices in your life?

00:43:41.86
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:43:43.92
Kevin Shock
And um and he talks about the prayer, um but the it it doesn't even come from the Christian tradition, although he puts he puts Christ into it in the book.

00:43:44.14
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:43:54.87
Kevin Shock
um

00:43:57.43
Kevin Shock
ah the The prayer of loving kindness, maybe. um I think is more like a Buddhist tradition kind of thing.

00:44:04.00
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:44:07.00
Kevin Shock
ah And and I'm not I'm going, I'm not going to quote it well here, but um you know may may I be happy? May I be healthy? ah may the yeah I remember, may the love of Jesus flow in and through me or something like that.

00:44:24.97
Kevin Shock
it It's something like that.

00:44:25.94
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:44:28.60
Kevin Shock
French talks about employing that prayer for yourself and then employing it for other people, especially people that you don't like.

00:44:34.48
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:44:37.90
Kevin Shock
And I can remember one time I was i was using using that book with with people in in a congregation and and man, there was like there was a guy I encountered nearly every day at the gym that I just like, he just annoyed the heck out of me.

00:44:55.88
Kevin Shock
I mean, just this whole demeanor, you know, that kind of thing. and but ah But I knew it was somebody,

00:45:00.39
Nathan Pile
Did you have a conversation with this person or is it just his body language annoyed you?

00:45:04.76
Kevin Shock
ah just just the just the way he interacted with people, like he came across as arrogant to me. And you know I just like, I just, and and I say I encountered him a lot because he was on staff there.

00:45:15.32
Kevin Shock
So it wasn't like someone I just bumped into.

00:45:16.42
Nathan Pile
oh

00:45:17.93
Kevin Shock
It was someone that I saw every time I went to the gym and I would just like look at him and and see him like, you know doing stuff and roll my eyes. And so I, it it was during that time that we were going through this book and I thought, I'm just gonna pray for this guy using that prayer. And it was, geez, Nathan, it was like it took like five days before I saw him in a completely different light. And no longer saw arrogance, but saw um insecurity and a need for love.

00:45:57.88
Kevin Shock
So it doesn't take long, but if I were to do that with every person that I encountered, that would I could spend my whole day doing it.

00:46:05.79
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:46:06.82
Kevin Shock
And um there's a part of me when I read this reading that thinks maybe I should be doing that.

00:46:06.89
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:46:13.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:46:14.18
Kevin Shock
Maybe I should spend my whole day doing it.

00:46:16.74
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's something about this passage. I was in a conversation yesterday with some colleagues around, you know, what is the what's the what's what's the central um part of the gospel that you want to make sure people know? And boy, this passage really makes me want to dig in deeper to that idea of of of God's love and um becoming a more loving person in all aspects of my life.

00:46:55.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:46:55.71
Nathan Pile
um that that That might be the thing that I want people to know the most. This conversation today, you know, if of what is the gospel, the gospel is that God loves you completely unconditionally and and because of the gospel,

00:47:01.35
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:47:05.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:47:13.30
Nathan Pile
you're called to try and reflect and live into that love in the same ways that you experience it from God.

00:47:20.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:47:23.78
Nathan Pile
And that's powerful.

00:47:25.70
Kevin Shock
Yep. Yep.

00:47:27.23
Nathan Pile
um

00:47:30.69
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so.

00:47:34.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about.

00:47:37.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah. We've got to do this one more time, I think, right?

00:47:40.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah, we do. We do.

00:47:41.97
Nathan Pile
All right, let's do it one more time. If I speak in tongues of human beings and of angels, but I don't have love, I'm a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and I know all the mysteries and everything else, and if I have such complete faith that I can move mountains, but I don't have love, I'm nothing.

00:48:03.36
Nathan Pile
If I give away everything that I have and hand over my own body to feel good about what I've done, but I don't have love, I receive no benefit whatsoever. Love is patient, love is kind. It isn't jealous. It isn't it doesn't brag. It isn't arrogant. It isn't rude. It doesn't seek its own advantage. It isn't irritable. It doesn't keep a record of complaints.

00:48:29.29
Nathan Pile
It isn't happy with injustice, but it is happy with the truth. Love puts up with all things, trusts in all things, hopes for all things, endures all things. Love never fails. As for prophecies, they will be brought to an end. As for tongues, they will stop. As for knowledge, it will be brought to an end. We know in part and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect comes,

00:48:56.81
Nathan Pile
What is partial will be brought to an end. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, reason like a child, think like a child. But now that I have become a man, I've put an end to childish things. Now we see a reflection in a mirror. Then we will see face to face. Now I know partially, but then I will know completely in the same way that I have been completely known.

00:49:28.53
Nathan Pile
Now, faith, hope, and love remain these three things, and the greatest of these is love.

00:49:38.36
Nathan Pile
what is your What in your life begs more love in receiving or giving?

00:49:48.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Does this question make any more sense for you at this point? Or, I mean, it, it, it was, it really just means where do you need more love in your life?

00:49:58.54
Nathan Pile
There, yeah, that's that's the way I was taking it, but I wasn't exactly certain that was what I was, um ah that I should be taking from it.

00:50:02.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. I was just trying to stick with, I was just sticking with my what and how questions. That's so, um, I.

00:50:12.12
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

00:50:16.49
Kevin Shock
i I feel, I don't know if I feel bad. I feel bad for saying this publicly. um No, I don't feel bad about it. The church. The church is where I see the most gaps of love. And it's probably because I'm entrenched in it. um But I learned a lesson about myself ah about a month ago.

00:50:46.12
Kevin Shock
where I realized that um if I walk into a meeting or if I don't know what a phone call or an email is about, I have begun to brace myself for the vitriol that I might be facing.

00:51:07.72
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:10.72
Kevin Shock
And it saddens me that that's my current experience of the church.

00:51:16.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:18.95
Kevin Shock
And and the lesson I learned about myself is that I i braced myself for a conversation that ended up being a very loving, uplifting, appreciative conversation.

00:51:34.71
Kevin Shock
And then I felt like and i felt like a ah jerk for, you know, ah quote-unquote, assuming the worst. But I also realized there's a reason I assume the worst.

00:51:44.17
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:47.39
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:49.11
Kevin Shock
And and I and I as I think about it, I think that um i know i know that I know that everyone in the church is anxious about one thing or another.

00:52:03.99
Kevin Shock
I know that we are, in our tradition, we're We're not in ministry mode. We're in survival mode. It means we make bad decisions. It means we make decisions for the wrong reasons.

00:52:18.49
Kevin Shock
um And it means that there are a lot of gaps that could be filled by love that are not because we're trying to be right or

00:52:33.33
Kevin Shock
or we're we're trying to survive. but're we're trying We're trying to survive and we try to do it at the detriment of other people. like if no one wants Everyone wants their congregation to be around forever.

00:52:51.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:52:51.67
Kevin Shock
um

00:52:55.16
Kevin Shock
But we don't have the, it's not a sustainable model. And and so,

00:53:04.56
Kevin Shock
I learned early on in this call that um that people agree that we we have too many buildings for the amount of people that we're currently serving and that no one wants to close their own building.

00:53:20.76
Kevin Shock
They all think that somebody else should close their building.

00:53:21.47
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:53:25.37
Kevin Shock
And and closing a building does not mean closing a ministry, but we ah we somehow equate those two things.

00:53:29.68
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:53:32.37
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:53:37.52
Kevin Shock
Uh, and I, you know, I know places in our Senate where I, you know, I, I think to myself, if, if we could, if we could combine these communities, these two communities here and divest of one of the buildings, we could have a really thriving ministry. But I'm, I, I don't, you know, kind of like what I said earlier, um,

00:54:08.65
Kevin Shock
ah around When I was talking about the ah love the sinner hate the sin thing, um I go into conversations with congregations knowing that they don't want to close their building. And I know that if I present that, they're not going to be able to hear anything else that I have to say.

00:54:28.77
Kevin Shock
So I do feel like I'm called to love them toward a good and faithful way of living. Um,

00:54:43.10
Kevin Shock
and, and so the, like, the, the struggle for me then is that sometimes that means allowing them to languish in an unsustainable model for years and years and years and years and years.

00:54:51.24
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:54:53.91
Kevin Shock
Um, like I can, I can go in and I can make suggestions and I can hear, hear them out and I can do all of those things.

00:55:08.21
Kevin Shock
Um, But the decision to make a big leap of faith has to be their own. I'm never going to convince them of that. And, and if I don't continue at least attempting to love them, I'm I'm useless to them and to the church.

00:55:31.21
Kevin Shock
So that, yeah, I, yeah, it, yeah.

00:55:39.40
Nathan Pile
But I think where you've come down there is ah is a is a um as this passage would proclaim,

00:55:52.22
Nathan Pile
that's all you can do. Because in the Lutheran church, in the ELCA, the decision to close the congregation, that that decision resides in the people and places, that resides in the congregation.

00:55:55.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:56:09.54
Nathan Pile
the The office of the bishop doesn't have that,

00:56:09.92
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:56:12.69
Nathan Pile
um that power to do so, I think, A, sharing from a strategic place, I think I think looking at closing a building makes sense, folks.

00:56:16.48
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:56:25.25
Nathan Pile
But know that I'm here to love you in whatever process this is until you until you make the decision for yourself. Because you trying to convince them of it doesn't make any sense.

0:56:36.76
Nathan Pile
So loving them where they're at and and and continuing to say,

00:56:42.78
Nathan Pile
um sharing the truth in love, whatever that you know whatever that is. you know the Being able to name the reality, a lot of times the outside person coming into a space, our job is to name what we see as the reality.

00:57:02.55
Nathan Pile
and And being able to do that is as lovingly as as can be done, and then loving them and saying, you're the ones making the the choices here, folks.

00:57:13.25
Nathan Pile
um I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna love you through whatever that is. And if you ask my opinion, I'll give it to you honestly.

00:57:24.41
Nathan Pile
But I'm not the, you know, and so I think where you've where you've kind of talked about where you're at, i think I think that's the only place that you can be because of this matter that because of what this um these verses of Paul is saying to to a community.

00:57:41.02
Nathan Pile
Because he's not saying it to a bride and and to a a groom. got Paul is speaking to the community in Corinth. This is how you live as community together.

00:57:50.49
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Right, right.

00:57:53.04
Nathan Pile
This is how you do that.

00:57:53.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:57:54.64
Nathan Pile
And as as the leader of the church,

00:57:54.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:57:57.23
Nathan Pile
um

00:57:59.83
Nathan Pile
apps absolutely from a strategic perspective or from from a financial perspective, this is what looks like the truth is.

00:58:11.12
Nathan Pile
Otherwise, I'm gonna live in the best loving relationship that I can with you and and you'll live that out.

00:58:21.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:58:21.84
Nathan Pile
But boy, doing all of those things that we've talked about in the last hour makes it but you know it it makes it hard, makes it hard to um to do that.

00:58:31.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, it yeah, yeah, it it's exhausting. And, and it, and it would, it would be less exhausting if I didn't see so much of the stuff that

00:58:49.73
Kevin Shock
Paul talks about as being different from love in in action.

00:58:52.71
Nathan Pile
yeah sir

00:58:54.44
Kevin Shock
I mean, you know I I know like I go into some meetings knowing that I'm going to encounter impatience, rudeness, jealousy, braggadocia, arrogance, seeking our own advantage or our own survival, irritability, and and a big one.

00:59:15.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:59:18.29
Kevin Shock
in in the call where I currently am, ah having a conversation was I had a conversation with someone yesterday where I said, you know, one thing I realize is that I'm, I mean, they they said to me, this person said to me explicitly, ah you you bring a lot of baggage with you.

00:59:18.94
Nathan Pile
sure.

00:59:37.52
Kevin Shock
And, um

00:59:38.87
Nathan Pile
Just by your presence because of the office you represent.

00:59:40.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just the office. Yeah. Yeah. And I I kind of I kind of chuckled. I mean, it was it was said in just the like, ah ah I appreciated it being said, because it was said in a like, I recognize this kind of way. um Because I asked, you know, someone, they were talking about someone in their church who was to had certain feelings about the office of the bishop and, you know, from something that happened And they told me when it happened. And I said, I was not even in ministry whenever this happened. And for some of these, for some of the baggage I carry, I carry it from people who were maybe not even around whenever I was born.

01:00:36.00
Kevin Shock
And, um,

01:00:38.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it just, uh, that, that baggage gets heavy. Gets heavy. Yeah. So it, it, it does, uh, sometimes, um, people keep a record of complaints and they're not complaints about me. Um, but it doesn't mean that I don't hear the record.

01:01:02.96
Kevin Shock
So I just, I, it like it, ah my, my hesitation to even talk about this, like it, it hurts me that the church is the place where I see love lacking.

01:01:04.31
Nathan Pile
Sure.

01:01:16.06
Kevin Shock
It's, it, it's hard for me to see that. I love the church. I love the church's people. Um, some days I feel like I'm falling out of love with it, but I bet I don't know another way.

01:01:32.18
Kevin Shock
I don't know another way. And, and I certainly don't know another way than what Paul is talking about here. So that's where, yeah.

01:01:41.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01:42.78
Kevin Shock
What about you though?

01:01:44.31
Nathan Pile
Well, but I think you're your reflection piece is um your reflection piece is is a good one in that your I recognize you live in the church and you lead in the church.

01:01:46.26
Kevin Shock
I want to hear your answer.

01:01:57.03
Nathan Pile
And so you you spend all of your time in the church. um

01:02:00.90
Kevin Shock
I don't spend all my time in the church, but yes.

01:02:02.89
Nathan Pile
You spend a ah large majority of your time in the church.

01:02:05.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:02:06.12
Nathan Pile
The other times that you don't spend in the church, you're spending around friends. where love already exists um and mutual respect.

01:02:14.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah

01:02:17.24
Nathan Pile
I think our world is broken and it hurts to be a part of a church that feels just as broken as the world um because there's plenty of not love outside the church.

01:02:27.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:02:34.42
Nathan Pile
um

01:02:34.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah, there is, there is.

01:02:35.22
Nathan Pile
there's There's plenty of, you know, just read a newspaper and there's plenty of not love um and and and people making judgment about one another.

01:02:43.15
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:46.77
Nathan Pile
And and so it it is a part of our overall culture that we're all doing this.

01:02:48.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:55.20
Nathan Pile
The breaking of my heart, it matches yours, is that we can't seem to, as the church, provide a different way when that I believe is why Christ came is to teach us another way.

01:03:10.89
Nathan Pile
um We haven't been able to separate ourselves from culture to create that other way.

01:03:11.16
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, go ahead.

01:03:18.35
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and what you say right there, Nathan, I think that's at the, that's at the root of it. That that's, that's at the root of the problem is, you know, people always ask me, why is the church in decline?

01:03:36.29
Kevin Shock
We do not differentiate ourselves from all the culture around us.

01:03:41.92
Kevin Shock
we don't we're the we're the We're the people who have been given this gift of love and we do not use it. We don't show it.

01:03:51.51
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

01:03:51.87
Kevin Shock
I think I think if the church were able to enact love with all of their neighbors around them, we would be in a completely different space than we are right now.

01:04:03.29
Nathan Pile
Yep.

01:04:03.72
Kevin Shock
But we don't make decisions based on love. We make decisions based on our budgets. We make decisions based on our buildings. We make decisions based on the people who've been members for a long time. We make judgments about the people who come to us. We make judgments about the people who don't come to us. ah And it it's it stifles it stifles our ministry.

01:04:27.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I I guess, yeah, I you're right, you're right. It's it's the culture. I I guess that like, you know,

01:04:39.93
Kevin Shock
um I I guess I find myself asking the question, why do I brace myself for vitriol when I'm interacting with people in the church? And I don't brace myself for vitriol whenever I go to Trader Joe's.

01:04:59.41
Kevin Shock
I have lovely conversations with people at Trader Joe's or, or I don't, and again, it's a different kind of thing, but I don't brace myself for vitriol whenever I'm, uh, whenever I walk into center County pause.

01:05:05.89
Nathan Pile
thank you.

01:05:15.79
Kevin Shock
And there are people there who have strong opinions about things and people there who, you know, who think that there's a right way to do something.

01:05:19.71
Nathan Pile
Sure.

01:05:23.62
Kevin Shock
There are people there who have differences of opinion about how we should operate and

01:05:31.12
Kevin Shock
not perfectly, but but sometimes it seems like um the the purpose and the fulfillment of that purpose is more more focused, more defined there than it is in the church. So that's, yeah. What about you? ah where Where do you need more love in your life?

01:05:53.33
Nathan Pile
I'm going to keep it simple because we're a little over our time today, but um it's going to depend on my day, Kevin. ah There are days that I need love as I'm giving to others because maybe I have burnt the candle at both ends.

01:06:00.49
Kevin Shock
Okay.

01:06:10.09
Nathan Pile
um And there are days that I need um love in in in receiving.

01:06:10.18
Kevin Shock
Mm.

01:06:21.92
Nathan Pile
And so it I think it just depends on, um

01:06:29.02
Nathan Pile
you know, and and in receiving, I see it as somebody doing something kind for me, something somebody coming in and like I have to be open and vulnerable to accept their assistance, their help, there um their kind words, their hug, whatever it is. And so,

01:06:48.29
Nathan Pile
um I wish I could say that, that i but you know hearing this question, the thing that that um it depends on on how how I've been doing living life, um because it's we all need love, um both the reminder of God's love for us, but also the love of of of one another.

01:07:17.05
Nathan Pile
But I would say that there are seasons of of time, seasons of my life, seasons seasons of my year, of my week, where I need um where i need love either in in giving or receiving.

01:07:34.21
Nathan Pile
And it doesn't usually feel like they're together.

01:07:41.60
Nathan Pile
Maybe that would be considered burnout if I if i needed all of it.

01:07:41.75
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

01:07:45.97
Nathan Pile
Maybe that's burnout.

01:07:46.23
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

01:07:47.30
Nathan Pile
um

01:07:50.50
Nathan Pile
But it does feel like there would be times that that that I would need love to help me do one or the other. um The love of of the reminder of the love of God and the reminder of um of the love of of those who are around me, whether they be staff members, whether they be family or friends.

01:08:22.50
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So just to try to can kind of keep that without going much deeper than that, that kind of feels like where I would land with this.

01:08:31.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. And because each, each day probably feels different to me too, if I'm being honest about it.

01:08:40.14
Nathan Pile
Right.

01:08:41.25
Kevin Shock
So, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think we both land at the place where we need more love in the world. and And we know where that love comes from.

01:08:53.84
Kevin Shock
So then the question is, how do we do it?

01:08:58.57
Nathan Pile
Right

01:08:59.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah. All right. Well, ah some additional texts. There are a lot. And you can choose what you want to use and what you don't want to use. um Jeremiah chapter 1 verses 4 through 10. I appointed you a prophet to the nations ah This is Jeremiah's call story Psalm 71 verses 1 through 6 from my mother's womb. You have been my strength And Luke chapter 4 verses 21 through 30 Jesus says that a prophet is not accepted in his hometown ah Some other readings if you choose to do them, this is a ah February 2nd is also a

01:09:39.15
Kevin Shock
Uh, uh, a Holly day, Holly Holy day. I don't know why I said Holly day, the whole, because I was thinking holiday, but wanted to say holy day, um, holiday in the church.

01:09:44.36
Nathan Pile
Holly day. Right.

01:09:52.23
Kevin Shock
Uh, it's a candle mass. Um, it's groundhog day, uh, which also falls on candle mass. Um, I mean, it is a groundhog day is candle mass.

01:10:02.51
Nathan Pile
this It it is, it is.

01:10:03.49
Kevin Shock
Uh, but, but what we, the, the official ah term for candle moss in the church is ah the presentation of our Lord. It's the day, this is 40 days after um after Christmas when Jesus would have been brought to the temple for purification. um and And we hear the, um we hear the the Luke The text from Luke two where Simeon's song, ah all things have been fulfilled because Jesus, the savior of the nations has been brought to the temple. um We also call it candle moss, Groundhog Day, ah because this is when we are celebrating light. And so a lot of congregations or some congregations will bless all their candles so during this during this day.

01:10:52.90
Kevin Shock
But there are some readings there, Malachi 3, 1 to 4, Psalm Psalm 24, 7 through 10, Hebrews 2, 14 to 18, and Luke 2, 22 to 40, if you want to learn more about that holiday in the church. ah ah We hope that this episode, like all of our episodes, has caused you to reflect a little bit, think about love. Nathan, I really appreciate that we are able to talk to one another freely.

01:11:19.59
Kevin Shock
um in a loving way for you about some of these things. And friends, we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:11:30.19
Nathan Pile
And peace.