Episode 16: 2 Corinthians 3:12–4:2

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How do you not lose heart?

Additional texts:

Exodus 34:29-35

Psalm 99

Luke 9:28-43a

Transcript

00:01.42
Kevin Shock
Good day, everyone. Welcome as we are getting ready to tend our faith through scripture again. Nathan and I are looking forward to this discussion, ah even though we haven't really we haven't really talked about the text yet. So who knows, maybe we won't look forward to the discussion once we start having it, but I feel like we normally do. So it's it's good to be with you and good to be with one another this day. ah Today, as we tend our faith,

00:31.63
Kevin Shock
We are going to be looking at ah Paul's second letter to the Corinthians, that second Corinthians chapter three, verse 12 through chapter four, verse two. And the translation we are using is the new revised standard version updated edition.

00:50.03
Kevin Shock
You can find that translation on BibleGateway dot.com or the Bible Gateway app, or you can use whatever Bible is in translation is easiest for you to use as you listen and engage. Our three questions today. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And how do you not lose heart?

01:15.96
Nathan Pile
Yeah, a light one there, a light one.

01:17.78
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah, our last episode was pretty light too. ah Yeah.

01:23.19
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Kevin's deeply reflecting right now, everyone.

01:25.15
Kevin Shock
oh

01:28.46
Nathan Pile
That's what I get from Kevin's deep questions.

01:29.42
Kevin Shock
all I'll throw you a softball next time.

01:33.00
Nathan Pile
All right. Thanks. Uh, a little information about your host other than that. We like to hit a softballs. Um, we are men married to women in financially stable households white in our late forties college and seminary educated.

01:47.53
Nathan Pile
Um, actually this is the episode.

01:47.83
Kevin Shock
Oh, Nathan.

01:50.26
Nathan Pile
This is it. This is the episode. Everyone. I knew this coming into this. Um, I have to edit.

01:56.42
Kevin Shock
That's why I stopped you.

01:57.00
Nathan Pile
I have to edit this. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we I am still in my late 40s. Kevin is no longer in his 40s as of this podcast, everyone.

02:08.85
Nathan Pile
It happened yesterday um for you as you're listening if you're listening on the day this drops.

02:09.59
Kevin Shock
Yes, it did. It did happen yesterday.

02:15.22
Nathan Pile
um so ah yeah Very, very sad for Kevin. So I am in my late forties.

02:21.06
Kevin Shock
Extremely.

02:21.86
Nathan Pile
Kevin is no longer in his forties. And we are college and seminary educated. We do work in the Lutheran church, and we're born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it.

02:34.07
Nathan Pile
But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

02:47.02
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think from your experience as you encounter scripture.

02:58.61
Nathan Pile
So happy birthday, Kevin.

03:00.70
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

03:01.82
Nathan Pile
yeah ah Second Corinthians, the third ah chapter, verse 12 through the fourth chapter, verse two.

03:11.00
Nathan Pile
Since then, we have such a hope, we act with complete frankness, not like Moses who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside, but their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the Old Covenant, the same veil is still there. It is not unveiled since in Christ it is set aside. Indeed, to this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lives lies over their minds.

03:53.62
Nathan Pile
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And all of us,

04:04.79
Nathan Pile
with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord, the Spirit. Therefore, since it is by God's grace that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. We have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning,

04:33.20
Nathan Pile
or to falsify God's word, but by the open statement of the truth, we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God.

04:48.15
Nathan Pile
If you are meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. ah Or you can listen here as Kevin shares his response to what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text, Kevin.

05:05.10
Kevin Shock
ah Right at the beginning, that um that accusation that Paul levies against Moses, that he was not acting with complete frankness. um I ah I understand what he's saying. I think that um not just this translation, other translations too, ah could it could be read that Moses was being deceitful. um But I think the reality of knowing that story is that Moses knew and that if the people saw the reflection, I mean, Moses had seen God face to face, and if the people saw the reflection of that glory because of their hardened, what does it say, minds, their hardened minds, they weren't gonna be able to survive it. um Yeah, so I I don't think that, I don't think that Moses was being deceitful, but I think he was being cautious and being careful around the people.

06:03.18
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

06:03.05
Kevin Shock
um I do think that the the rest of this reading that uses that veil as ah as ah as a metaphor, as an object lesson really, um i think I think it's important that we remember that um being being in Christ allows us to act with complete frankness, with honesty.

06:33.31
Kevin Shock
And also um being in Christ softens our hardened hearts and minds so that we are not we're not overcome by the glory of the Lord as we witness it. um The full glory of the Lord we we know in the Christian faith is Christ himself.

07:01.58
Kevin Shock
and We have seen him, or we at least have, you know stories about him, the people who have seen him. ah We have seen him, we have seen we have witnessed the spirit and because of those, because of what God has done, we now, I think it says in Hebrews that we can um approach the throne with confidence.

07:32.53
Kevin Shock
ah not with arrogance, but with confidence, knowing that God god has reconciled us to God's self.

07:47.42
Kevin Shock
So I I think that Moses, Moses was doing his job, but his job was also limited based on his own limitations, the limitations of the people and the immense glory that was shining off of God.

08:08.44
Nathan Pile
Um.

08:14.08
Nathan Pile
So this is one of those sections for Paul for me where I wish he'd get to the point a little bit more clearly. um

08:24.97
Nathan Pile
ah Because I do think as you have nicely articulated, you know he kind of blasts Moses for again, what I would think would be some care that Moses is applying to the people of Israel.

08:42.34
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

08:44.65
Nathan Pile
But Paul just seems to go after Moses, um again with this language of um veiled or being unveiled.

08:56.52
Nathan Pile
um and We know that Paul has no problem with humility. no No, that's incorrect. We do know that Paul has a problem with sometimes being humble.

09:05.33
Kevin Shock
That's the...

09:09.09
Nathan Pile
um he

09:10.13
Kevin Shock
ah

09:11.24
Nathan Pile
and so just there's there's There's more than a little bit of a tick of um arrogance in his writing here. um that that like you've done, I think, a nice job of being able to help us set this up.

09:33.54
Nathan Pile
But if somebody's coming cold into this and reading this text or hearing this text read, I imagine their head is spinning in like what exactly is going on here?

09:43.43
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

09:46.49
Nathan Pile
um And so again, you've given some, so Paul historically, um siblings in Christ,

09:46.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

09:56.66
Nathan Pile
um Paul is a well-read Pharisee, um after a little bit after Jesus' time. And so he knows what he knows.

10:12.16
Nathan Pile
And he assumes that you do too. You know that he what he knows.

10:16.05
Kevin Shock
No, no.

10:17.91
Nathan Pile
um So, um and and in the Jewish faith tradition, those, again, the stories would have been stories that get passed down generation to generation.

10:18.85
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

10:33.71
Nathan Pile
um First orderly, then eventually written um and in Paul's time, absolutely written. um

10:44.08
Nathan Pile
But there's a part for us as as Christians that I think this story of Moses could leave you kind of saying, what in the world is going on here? And it does have, it is reflecting off of Moses having been face to face with God and that glory shining from Moses onto others.

11:03.20
Nathan Pile
And so this idea of a veil is used to protect the people.

11:06.15
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

11:09.75
Nathan Pile
um

11:13.30
Nathan Pile
But Paul seems to have a real problem with things getting be in between us and God.

11:26.15
Nathan Pile
For instance, hear the veil. um And so, like, and I know he says it, but he says it in Paul's kind of roundabout

11:29.32
Kevin Shock
Sure.

11:39.46
Nathan Pile
Let's take 10 sentences to say what we could say in two um way. you know And he gets worse with this, I believe. yeah Some of what Romans is is is some of, the yeah yes, it's Paul's best theological treatise, but whoo, whoo.

11:55.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

11:57.01
Nathan Pile
It's also this. So um there's also some of this in it, that that piece. So I share all of that. I i appreciate Paul's theology. I appreciate um what Paul does for the church. i you know I spent much of my time in seminary studying Paul because of how much I like the mission that he goes about and seeking to complete and be a part of. ah there's Like anybody, when you read something and a lot, you start to get to the place of, could you have could you have done this ah in another way, Paul? um yeah like It feels a little bit like let's trash Moses

12:38.65
Nathan Pile
to proclaim Jesus, um which isn't what God typically does. you know Jesus doesn't typically trash the prophets and the ones that have come before him.

12:50.95
Kevin Shock
No, right.

12:52.93
Nathan Pile
um Though Paul here, for whatever reason, in this moment, because there's other times that he uses the the scriptures to to not do that, but this time,

12:52.77
Kevin Shock
Right.

13:02.69
Nathan Pile
he He didn't like what Moses did. not And I guess I shouldn't say it that way, but um he didn't, he felt as if Moses has put something in between us being able to see God clearly. And so he kind of takes that idea of the veil and then just, as as he does, pounds on it a little bit.

13:29.05
Nathan Pile
um So I appreciated your reflection in those ways, kind of um taking some of that history and and making it understandable for us as we as we understand what what is Paul's argument with Moses essentially here.

13:52.61
Nathan Pile
the

13:56.14
Nathan Pile
the place for me. and And I like that idea of being able to um have frankness, be be clear and honest. um Because I do think you've done a nice job of again of boiling it down a little bit um till we get to the maple syrup, the really good stuff um of what's of what's here.

14:23.35
Nathan Pile
um love being able to kind of to do that and share that. the I'll be honest, I was I was disappointed because I read, I try usually to avoid these things.

14:33.03
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

14:36.16
Nathan Pile
I read the title of chapter four and was like, oh, good, we're gonna talk about clay jars.

14:39.79
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah.

14:44.11
Nathan Pile
um And then we don't get there. ah

14:46.40
Kevin Shock
We don't get there. Yeah. Yeah. We don't get the whole way there.

14:49.48
Nathan Pile
um And so so I was left, as I finished chapter four here, just the second verse of chapter four, um with disappointment because one of the clay jars is one of my um favorite images of scripture.

14:49.44
Kevin Shock
Right.

15:05.42
Nathan Pile
And so it was a little saddened um that I didn't, after Paul's tirade, I was um I was looking for some love

15:18.05
Nathan Pile
I was looking for some, some good news.

15:18.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:20.06
Nathan Pile
And so, um, that idea that, um, the clay jars, the treasure, the clay jars was, it is coming.

15:20.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:28.90
Nathan Pile
It's just, we didn't get it in this reading.

15:30.67
Kevin Shock
We didn't get in this reading, you know?

15:32.64
Nathan Pile
So, um, so I was, that, that to be honest is my first response.

15:33.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:37.35
Nathan Pile
I've been a little disappointed in this whole reading.

15:40.19
Kevin Shock
Oh, I'm sorry.

15:42.02
Nathan Pile
No, it's not your fault. You picked it from the, you picked it from the list that is the lectionary. And so I think it's, it's okay that sometimes we read scripture and, and it just leaves us, um, well, today I'm just like, uh,

16:00.91
Nathan Pile
And we're going to talk about what, that there's still gospel to this. I'm not going to go there because we're going to talk about it in the next one and the next question for sure. Um, but I think as I finished this, I was, I was just kind of like, Oh, I wish I would have had more.

16:18.09
Nathan Pile
And probably if it was just me reading, I'd have kept reading until I got to something more.

16:22.52
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm, yeah.

16:23.37
Nathan Pile
You know, it was me just doing a devotional. I'd have been like. the The way this struck me today kind of left me feeling like, oh, I wish there was more. And we know there is, so.

16:34.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am. I think that when we get to the treasure and Clay's jo-, Clay jar is part of Second Corinthians four, we do hear some humility from Paul.

16:48.97
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

16:49.59
Kevin Shock
um

16:52.94
Kevin Shock
humility in the sense that he recognizes that the gift that Christ is ah is the precious gift and um not not fragile, but we but we handle it with care.

17:09.02
Kevin Shock
and we And we utilize it with care, which if I'm being honest, it sounds like he's not entirely doing that in yeah in the in the chapter three part of this reading.

17:17.06
Nathan Pile
And the end of three.

17:21.16
Kevin Shock
yeah

17:21.84
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:23.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think that...

17:24.84
Nathan Pile
Well, and that might have been that might have been here what he was trying to do, like to provoke us, you know, to provoke us in his style of writing here in this, the end of this third chapter.

17:30.02
Kevin Shock
Oh, it could very well have been.

17:37.01
Nathan Pile
and then come to the fourth chapter to kind of say, instead of saying, oh, see what I did, writing about it and letting us make that connection for ourselves. So, yeah.

17:48.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and I think that... um

17:53.44
Kevin Shock
Uh, Paul along, along with Moses also speaks a little poorly about the whole nation, all the people, uh, their, their minds were hardened.

18:06.80
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

18:08.12
Kevin Shock
they They couldn't, um, they, whenever the law is read of veil continues to lie over their minds.

18:16.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

18:16.19
Kevin Shock
Um, and I think that at least in our Christian tradition, that's not something, that's not something we uphold.

18:24.69
Kevin Shock
We recognize that there have been a long there's been a long history of rabbis, commentators, scribes, who pull goodness out of God's first covenant with Israel.

18:39.62
Kevin Shock
And and there's value in it.

18:39.95
Nathan Pile
yeah

18:45.95
Kevin Shock
we don't I think the the danger with a reading like this, when we just read this reading is that it, It can easily easily be used to um push someone towards what we call supercessionism, which is where the the first the first commandment, the first testament ah doesn't doesn't hold weight anymore. It was all there to fulfill the New Testament, the New commandment the new coven or the new Covenant. I'm sorry

19:20.15
Kevin Shock
new covenant um

19:23.88
Kevin Shock
But even Jesus, Jesus himself says that when he has come, he has come not to abolish the law, but to fu fulfill it. So there is still great value in the law. ah and it's in And the law is at, I think if anything, Jesus gets to the heart of the law and the prophets. Jesus lives those things out in a way that had never been seen before.

19:54.60
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

19:54.54
Kevin Shock
And so that's yeah it doesn't um doesn't do away with the law. it If anything, perhaps it gives a particular focus to the law to see the way that Jesus fulfills it.

20:13.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:16.59
Nathan Pile
Well, and the law falls within what we, by tradition, we consider it to be the books of Moses.

20:26.12
Kevin Shock
Right, yeah.

20:26.67
Nathan Pile
So it does refer to this down in 15, it says whenever Moses is read. And so if you're thinking, boy, I didn't know there was a book of Moses, there isn't one called Moses.

20:38.81
Nathan Pile
There's not one of those.

20:39.07
Kevin Shock
but Right, there's not a book called Moses, right? Yeah.

20:41.63
Nathan Pile
um what What often tradition is talking about, what Paul is talking about here, is those first five books are considered to be the books of Moses. So Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy are the book of Moses, kind of a thing by tradition.

20:59.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

21:01.22
Nathan Pile
so And so the law is in there in the midst of those readings.

21:06.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

21:08.46
Nathan Pile
so

21:08.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. What Jewish people call the Torah.

21:13.04
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

21:13.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

21:14.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Good. Sorry. Just a little history there too.

21:17.65
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. I think it's helpful.

21:20.69
Nathan Pile
All right. Anything else here for the first time through?

21:22.30
Kevin Shock
Okay. I don't think for the first time, I'll go ahead and read it again.

21:26.20
Nathan Pile
All right. I can't wait.

21:30.42
Kevin Shock
From 2 Corinthians 3 and 4, Since then we have such a hope we act with complete frankness, not like Moses who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day when they hear the reading of the Old Covenant, the same veil is still there. It is not unveiled, since in Christ it is set aside.

21:54.29
Kevin Shock
Indeed, to this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

22:21.43
Kevin Shock
Therefore, since it is by God's mercy that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. We have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God's word. But by the open statement of the truth, we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God.

22:42.32
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

22:46.30
Nathan Pile
um I think, again, with the imagery here in the first part of this at the end of the third third chapter,

22:57.29
Nathan Pile
um the the to be seeking the truth, to be seeking the truth about God. So the the God revealing God self, both in the law and in the um and in the gospel, but seeking truth. And so, um again, as you read at this time, I was I heard, maybe I felt like maybe I was being a little harsh on Paul, um in that here he talks about that um it is not unveiled since in Christ it is set aside.

23:36.25
Nathan Pile
um And though he's he's he's not he's making a big claim in that half of a sentence in saying that Jesus doesn't come and erase the law.

23:52.21
Nathan Pile
um

23:53.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

23:53.71
Nathan Pile
And so, so he's making a big claim in a half of a sentence compared to all of the other verses. And so, ah you know, having, but that all of that kind of strikes me that Paul, is he wants, he wants people to seek of the truth. And I think we are called to seek the truth about who God is um and what that looks like. And so being able to,

24:22.38
Nathan Pile
um recognize, love, forgiveness, mercy in who God is. um is ah you know thats That's all part of us coming to realize, coming to to understand ah the nature of God. and that that that piece that that As we learn that, that's part of what gets you know the Israelites have a hardened head about, a hardened mind about, is being able to see the true glory of God, um the truth about who God is.

24:55.42
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

24:58.40
Nathan Pile
There's something that is keeping them from seeing that full splendor. um And so to be able to, um the thing I feel called to to in this passage is to be is to be seeking the truth of that revelation.

25:19.68
Kevin Shock
Okay.

25:23.25
Nathan Pile
What about you?

25:23.10
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Uh, I'm really those, um, I guess maybe I'm also a bit troubled by the first two verses of chapter four.

25:34.34
Kevin Shock
Um, not the first one, but, um, the second one, uh, because again, I think that, uh, we have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways.

25:45.97
Kevin Shock
I'm not sure whether Paul is referring to somebody there.

25:47.41
Nathan Pile
Yeah. yeah

25:51.63
Kevin Shock
or if he's just speaking, of giving writing a statement.

25:57.35
Nathan Pile
Right.

25:57.30
Kevin Shock
um but Like the statement by itself.

25:58.48
Nathan Pile
is it's Is that something that the people of Corinth, he's lived through with them about somebody that's been shameful or underhanded? you know Yeah.

26:06.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um I think that, I think the statement by itself is a good statement and something to strive for. I think if if it comes down to, yeah, we're not like those people,

26:21.86
Kevin Shock
Uh, then it, then it becomes, it becomes easier when we do the, we're not like those people. It becomes easier for us to assert that we are right and other people are wrong.

26:34.86
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

26:35.97
Kevin Shock
And so we don't perhaps do the hard work it takes to search for the truth.

26:36.93
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

26:44.30
Kevin Shock
Because we might more easily assume that what we already have and believe is the truth.

26:48.28
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

26:51.05
Kevin Shock
Um, You know, I, I just think of, I think of the number of times in the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years that I've heard accusations one way or another of people falsifying God's word.

27:08.98
Nathan Pile
Mm.

27:08.77
Kevin Shock
Um, and that's something that Paul tells the Corinthians that we refuse to do. We refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God's word. Uh, yeah. And I think that.

27:21.87
Kevin Shock
I think that we're all guilty in some regard of falsifying God's word, or practice cunning, or finding finding things that will speak to what we want to say.

27:39.80
Nathan Pile
yeah

27:39.62
Kevin Shock
And that becomes ah becomes a problematic way of being, way of living.

27:49.49
Nathan Pile
ah You might have heard it referred to as proof texting sometimes.

27:53.44
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

27:54.34
Nathan Pile
People find texts that prove their point and then they they recite that verse.

27:55.03
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

28:01.93
Nathan Pile
um And maybe not the verse before it or after it that that might make it less clear or more gray. Instead, they just give you the verse that they feel casts that um level of judgment upon others or something like that.

28:19.09
Nathan Pile
And and we do do it.

28:19.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

28:20.01
Nathan Pile
like If you're trying to make a case for whatever your current theological system or current thought is,

28:32.99
Nathan Pile
where we can all, you know, what better way to prove our point than get a verse from scripture that tells it exactly the way we think it should be told.

28:44.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

28:44.92
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

28:45.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

28:48.92
Nathan Pile
You I'm trying to think where was I at? Oh, I know what I was reading. I was reading Nadia Bowles-Weber recently put a blog up. She was in Jordan.

28:59.47
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

29:03.12
Nathan Pile
recently talking about Christian Zionism um and and talking about how we as Christians have have done just this, of of the this war that has happened in Israel and Gaza and um and the different peoples, Christians, and um

29:33.98
Nathan Pile
Christians and Jews have taken scripture to kind of say, this is our right to do what we want. um

29:42.54
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Yeah, it's a complex situation.

29:44.81
Nathan Pile
So it's a complex issue. It was an interesting, and so if you're, if you, I don't know if you, any of you listening, ah read her blog.

29:47.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

29:53.81
Nathan Pile
She says that she needs more time to think about everything that she has consumed, but that the part of being an American Christian has been that that we have some some things about our own Christian Zionism, what we think about who belongs in that Holy Land space. And and that the conversations that she's had there, need she needs to kind of wrestle with that a little bit. But it's interesting, she uses the Friedrich Schleiermacher. I'm sure that's a name that many of you do not know. If you do, great, amazing.

30:30.56
Nathan Pile
um I had to read Schleiermacher in a couple of my classes in seminary and it's the only place I've ever encountered Schleiermacher is a seminary. um Or conversations with other pastors. But he talks about what heresy is.

30:48.27
Nathan Pile
in and she gives that quote and it's a really interesting um really interesting quote about heresy heres heresy and and I think something that we do,

31:03.31
Nathan Pile
that that idea of proof texting falls right into the the realm of what that the definition is.

31:10.30
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

31:11.61
Nathan Pile
and that we have that temptation today of being able to say, well, look here, it's right here in the Bible.

31:11.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

31:17.36
Nathan Pile
God says that that's the way it's supposed to be. um

31:22.79
Nathan Pile
So yeah, um something that we all need to be mindful of. And again, um when we when we claim that we're on the side of God,

31:38.99
Nathan Pile
um Boy, we've put ourselves in, in um I would say not good company, because that's what the Pharisees and the Sadducees do.

31:50.53
Nathan Pile
and And so when we're trying to do that, when we're trying to to to to put God on our side so that so that we're right and we can make judgment about others, we're, we're probably crossing an invisible line that we don't necessarily think is there.

31:50.23
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

32:08.68
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, that may be something that Paul himself does.

32:13.78
Nathan Pile
Yes, yes, yeah.

32:15.00
Kevin Shock
Sometimes, but as you. Said earlier. Paul is, ah his background is being a Pharisee.

32:23.08
Nathan Pile
right

32:23.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah i I was just looking up here. I can't remember the name of the, there's there's a there's group, not just one group, but there's a name for this belief that um that Jesus or that Israel has to be restored before Jesus can come again.

32:43.33
Kevin Shock
And that's in in our tradition, that's not something that we really uphold, but it is upheld in other Christian traditions. And and even for ah Messianic Jewish people, they they uphold that.

32:59.40
Kevin Shock
I don't know if they all do, but at least some of them do.

33:01.93
Nathan Pile
some of them do oh

33:02.40
Kevin Shock
there's that That belief exists in that strain. Yeah.

33:11.50
Nathan Pile
Thanks, Kevin, that was a good conversation there.

33:13.83
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

33:15.85
Nathan Pile
a Third time through.

33:18.82
Kevin Shock
Yes.

33:23.92
Nathan Pile
Since then, we have such a hope. We act with complete frankness.

33:32.54
Nathan Pile
Wait, is it my turn to read?

33:33.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah, mm hmm.

33:34.32
Nathan Pile
I don't even, oh, okay. We act with complete frankness, not like Moses who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day,

33:55.44
Nathan Pile
When they hear the reading of the Old Covenant, the same veil is still there. It is not unveiled, since in Christ it is set aside. Indeed, to this very day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lie lies over their minds. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

34:19.78
Nathan Pile
and all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord, the Spirit. Therefore, since it is by God's grace that we are and deign engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart.

34:44.40
Nathan Pile
We have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God's word. But by the open statement of the truth, we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God.

35:02.44
Nathan Pile
Well, Kevin, how do you not lose heart?

35:06.62
Kevin Shock
Um, I don't lose heart because I know that I'm right about everything.

35:11.61
Nathan Pile
Wow. That is a simple answer. Um, Paul, a Paul, since you're here on the podcast today, could we, uh, get you to, no, no, no.

35:13.89
Kevin Shock
No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

35:22.53
Nathan Pile
Um, go ahead.

35:22.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no. Um.

35:24.47
Nathan Pile
I know you jest, I know you jest.

35:26.42
Kevin Shock
I think I think actually when I when I read this. Um. They can be easy to lose heart ah because they're.

35:36.40
Nathan Pile
ah Yeah.

35:37.48
Kevin Shock
there's there's There's more coming, as you pointed out earlier, there's more coming in this reading and and it is some of that stuff that's coming that really does give us hope um that this ah work that we have been we've been given everything we've been given through Jesus by God's mercy.

36:00.90
Kevin Shock
um God has shown mercy upon us and

36:01.75
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

36:07.89
Kevin Shock
Therefore we we we have been given this treasure um And and freedom a freedom is used in this reading to somewhere um verse 17 chapter 3 verse 17 Now the Lord is the spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom ah And I you know, we interpret that as Lutheran Christians that this is this is freedom not to do whatever we want but freedom to

36:15.89
Nathan Pile
It does. Yeah.

36:36.92
Kevin Shock
live out the law and the prophets and the new covenant in Christ ourselves. um That we are, as as as Luther, I'm greatly paraphrasing here, but Luther said that we are, we're we're set free to love our neighbor and to serve our neighbor. That's that's where our freedom is. um And and when we're set free because we don't really have any control over whether Jesus gives us this treasure or not, he has done it. And I think on a day-to-day basis, it can become difficult to remember that this we've been given a great gift, and not just a great gift, but multiple great gifts.

37:33.57
Kevin Shock
and um And those gifts enable us to live out the the life and the calling that Jesus has given us.

37:43.51
Kevin Shock
So that's that's a way to not lose heart. I do think that it it takes some practice. It takes some practice not to be overwhelmed by in shameful, underhanded ways, either those of others or those of ourselves.

37:52.99
Nathan Pile
Oh.

38:02.18
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

38:02.10
Kevin Shock
um by practicing cunning or falsifying God's word, again, either by others or by ourselves, ah because we have we have simply been given this great gift that cannot be taken away from us because the one who has given it to us has promised that it is an unbreakable covenant.

38:24.84
Kevin Shock
It exists. That's the reality we live in. And um there's nothing we can do about it, thanks be to God.

38:36.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

38:39.86
Kevin Shock
Uh, okay.

38:40.32
Nathan Pile
yeah you you haven't really left me a lot of places to go um with my answer, um ah other than to say amen to Kevin's answer. and um and But like the the way that I do not lose heart, because there are you know there are days that I do lose heart,

39:04.44
Nathan Pile
um But the way that I find my way back onto the path um or that i is is to seek that spirit, to speak to to seek ah that God who loves us and is merciful, that God who um has forgiven um and done all of that without condition.

39:31.42
Nathan Pile
um

39:34.72
Nathan Pile
but has done it because of that love. And so being able to, when when I do lose heart, because that you know I wish I could tell you um everybody, and and I think those of you listening probably already know this too, like we we do, we lose heart.

39:38.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

39:50.82
Nathan Pile
There's a part of life when, um you know again, I very much appreciate Paul's um theology in all of the different books that he writes. This section of this book, however, as I said at the beginning, is a little is very disappointing. It makes me lose heart. ah I'm like, what are we doing here, Paul? um And so it does happen for us. And so being able to find our way back onto that path yeah is, is again, for me, knowing who God is, and being adhering

40:34.24
Nathan Pile
um reading reading about the that reminder of who God is in places where I do hear and feel the gospel message, maybe more clearly than this passage, um or to be in community with a group of people that helps remind me

40:41.18
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

40:47.98
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

40:54.20
Nathan Pile
of of that this is who our God is, that God comes and finds us on when we're off the path and confused and lost and and our hurt our heart is aching um and helps us to kind of know again um the deeper truth of who God is. And so,

41:23.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's, um

41:29.17
Nathan Pile
I wish I could say that I don't ever lose heart, that my faith is always enough to get me through, but that's not ah not really honest for me. And so there are times when when I do lose heart and and i and and knowing sometimes i you know it may it even be that I'm a little,

41:55.10
Nathan Pile
I'm so confused that I'm not even that I'm even aware that I've lost heart.

42:00.18
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

42:00.65
Nathan Pile
You know, sometimes it could be even that bad.

42:00.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

42:03.65
Nathan Pile
um But knowing and trusting that God is who God says God is, and that um God finds a way to help get me back on that path, whether again, it's so through some spur of the moment devotion that I happen to do that kind of helps.

42:22.24
Nathan Pile
It's a conversation with a buddy around a text um that I didn't know we were going to cover that week. And all of a sudden we do and I'm like, Oh, okay, God's talking to me here.

42:32.91
Nathan Pile
um Kind of a thing.

42:32.67
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Yeah.

42:34.94
Nathan Pile
um Or some other group or gathering. that helps me to kind of say, or some other experience, because sometimes it's not revolves, sometimes it doesn't revolve just around scripture or even like the community of faith.

42:49.41
Nathan Pile
Sometimes it can be being out in the community and I encounter somebody that is so hope filled that it is inspiring to me, um despite ah the people that I might've encountered within the church that's making me feel ah like I've lost my heart.

42:54.91
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

43:08.80
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

43:10.11
Nathan Pile
ah so um So it can be in in many places, but recognizing that God works um through all of those spaces and places.

43:10.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:17.63
Nathan Pile
And so um I think it's an important reminder.

43:23.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, something I was ah thinking about as you were talking, um I realized that. um This is as of this recording, I haven't been in a congregational setting for more than a month.

43:43.01
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

43:43.82
Kevin Shock
and um

43:46.03
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

43:45.93
Kevin Shock
I and don't think ah and don't think I've spent a lot of time reflecting on how that's affected me.

43:49.37
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

43:54.80
Kevin Shock
But I do i do know, and maybe this is proving to me in some regard, that that i need I need to be around the people of God and here hear the word and share fellowship um in order to... Yeah, I i think you used the phrase at one point. I think you said something like, my own faith isn't enough. And that instantly took me to none none of us on our own. ah For none of us is our own faith enough. it's it's the

44:33.64
Kevin Shock
Faith is a communal gift that God gives through the Spirit, and and we need one another. We need one another, not not just to fulfill the life that God has called us to, but also to, um well, to to to see this with unveiled faces.

44:57.99
Kevin Shock
We, um yeah, that the line, verse 18, and all of us with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another.

45:11.97
Kevin Shock
That's that's a verse I like, ah for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

45:16.03
Nathan Pile
Sure.

45:17.00
Kevin Shock
um But when we read that verse, it also makes me contemplate, um and forre if we're seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, It only makes sense to me that in some regard, we're seeing the glory of the Lord as reflected in the people we look at when we're gathered in faith community.

45:36.01
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

45:40.13
Kevin Shock
I think that's a pretty and's a pretty um traditional standard belief in the church, that we and we need one another, um not just to, like I said, not just to live out God's will, but also even to discern it, to see it.

45:48.34
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

45:58.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

45:59.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:00.40
Nathan Pile
Well, and I appreciate your insight into, um, not being able to be with the people of God.

46:12.10
Nathan Pile
That's something, you know, you recently had surgery, so you can't be out and about in the same ways.

46:12.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:18.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:19.74
Nathan Pile
um Yeah.

46:20.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I've I've tried, but the one but so one week when I really felt up to it, um there was ice and snow. So worship got moved to ah online only in my home congregation, which I totally understand.

46:29.40
Nathan Pile
Right, right. Right.

46:35.82
Kevin Shock
But also I, I mean, I could watch it, but it's it's just a different experience. For me, it's a different experience.

46:42.45
Nathan Pile
Sure.

46:44.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

46:44.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:47.61
Nathan Pile
Well, for all of us, when when we're having those, when our heart is heavy,

47:00.83
Nathan Pile
how do we, how can we, or how do we seek to be surrounded in that community so that reflecting of the glory of God, that image of God is all around us.

47:15.44
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

47:16.92
Nathan Pile
You know, that's that's intentional community. that's

47:23.56
Nathan Pile
we're We're all here reflecting that light in that space.

47:26.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

47:29.45
Nathan Pile
You know, it's like that promise in scripture where two or three are gathered in my name, I promise to be there. um And how often ah when we are two or three that we forget to say, hey, God, come and be with us in this space and place. But like, there's there's that idea of, there's that invitation from God of when we're, when you're together, you're reflecting the light of Christ and and and Yes, we can see it in a mirror, but we can also experience it from everybody else that's in that community and the ways that, you know, it's well like when you haven't been someplace for a while, you come back and people are like, oh, it's so good to see you.

48:12.88
Nathan Pile
You know, your spirit is just lifted by their greeting.

48:15.70
Kevin Shock
who

48:17.50
Nathan Pile
They're not even coming up and saying, oh, child of God, you are loved by God. Like, sure, that too would fill our, fill our hearts. um

48:25.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

48:27.48
Nathan Pile
But them just noticing that we're present in their space also does the same.

48:33.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right.

48:35.50
Nathan Pile
All right.

48:35.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to, um, it doesn't have to be an explicitly religious message in order to, uh, in order to speak the gospel to somebody else.

48:48.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:48.84
Nathan Pile
Yeah, ah yeah.

48:49.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:51.48
Nathan Pile
By you sharing your heart, you inspire theirs.

48:55.58
Kevin Shock
Yes. Right. Right. Yep. All right. Anything else you want to lift up Nathan?

49:05.15
Nathan Pile
think so.

49:06.80
Kevin Shock
All right, then a few other, um this is the, these readings for this week. This is the last Sunday in the season after Epiphany, what in our tradition, we normally celebrate what we call the transfiguration. And that is the, that's the reading where Jesus, his appearance is transformed on the mountaintop.

49:28.23
Kevin Shock
ah mos Moses and Elijah appear alongside him, and Peter, James, and John, but the chief disciples are on top of the mountain with him. I won't go into all the details that happen there, but if you're not familiar with that story, I'll give you in just a minute here the scripture reference for that from Luke.

49:48.49
Kevin Shock
but um if you're looking at other texts this week, and ah one one that might be helpful to read is ah Exodus 34, 29 through 35. And that is that's the account of Moses coming down from Mount Sinai and his face shining. That's where he puts on the veil.

50:06.84
Kevin Shock
ah Psalm 99 is proclaim the greatness of the Lord worship upon God's Holy Hill and then Luke 9 verse 28 through 43 a is Jesus is transfigured on the mountain um and I don't know the I'd have to look it up, I think that we stop with Luke 9 43a because 43b is where Jesus ah starts talking about going down the back down the mountain.

50:31.46
Kevin Shock
um

50:31.88
Nathan Pile
Right.

50:35.39
Kevin Shock
Well, no, actually, it's not it's not quite that, but ah he does he starts talking to his disciples at this in 43b. And then Oh yeah, and then 44 is the ah passion prediction. Let these words sink into your ears. The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into human hands. So in any case, um Jesus in insists on coming back down the mountain because that's where his, even though the glorious stuff happens on top of the mountain, that's where his mission is, down amongst the people. um And it's it's the case with Moses too.

51:13.59
Kevin Shock
Moses goes up the mountain to receive the law, but then also has to come back down to deliver it.

51:17.98
Nathan Pile
To deliver that law.

51:18.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

51:20.98
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

51:21.00
Kevin Shock
Well, Nathan, I appreciate your willingness to engage with a text that, uh, is not the easiest to talk about. Um, maybe not even our favorite, but, um, I think it's always good conversation.

51:27.91
Nathan Pile
Sure.

51:31.87
Nathan Pile
Definitely, definitely not close to my favorite.

51:33.77
Kevin Shock
Uh, it's always good conversation to be had. I think even around texts that we don't particularly like, um, that can, give us some insight into the whole of scripture.

51:47.18
Kevin Shock
ah And um yeah, so I appreciate your reflections.

51:47.57
Nathan Pile
Mm hmm.

51:52.29
Kevin Shock
And again, friends, if you have any reflections to share with us, do that via email or social media. And we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

52:02.47
Nathan Pile
And peace.