Episode 19: Genesis 15:1-12, 17-18

Translation: Alter

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

To what can we compare the promise of God?

Additional texts:

Psalm 27

Philippians 3:17—4:1

Luke 13:31-35

Transcript

00:00:02.41
Nathan Pile
Welcome back to Tend... a Bible podcast, we're going to be looking at Genesis, the 15th chapter, verses 1 through 12 and 17 and 18.

00:00:18.48
Nathan Pile
So chapter 15, verses 1 through 12 and verses 17 and 18. Kevin and I are going to read it from the altar translation, um which unless you've really gotten church nerdy, you probably don't have a copy of.

00:00:34.84
Nathan Pile
Uh, not to say that you shouldn't be church nerdy. Uh, just saying that, uh, that Kevin, um, Kevin has taught me about Robert Alters translation.

00:00:47.39
Nathan Pile
And so that's what we're using today. Um, and so, you are probably just going to need to follow along with whatever you have close by or, um, go to Bible gateway and follow along with the translation there because, um,

00:01:02.51
Nathan Pile
Those are the, because purchasing Robert Alter's three book volume of ah of of the Old Testament translation is the only way you can follow along.

00:01:13.17
Nathan Pile
And again, it is ah it is kind of a church nerdy thing to have.

00:01:14.43
Kevin Shock
Yes. Yeah.

00:01:19.42
Nathan Pile
um

00:01:20.28
Kevin Shock
It's a very good translation with, with lots of translation notes, which I think is I'm proving your point, Nathan, you kind of have to be church.

00:01:25.47
Nathan Pile
Yes.

00:01:28.50
Kevin Shock
Um,

00:01:29.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:01:29.48
Kevin Shock
but um

00:01:29.56
Nathan Pile
Well, and it's kind of things that we would be excited about as church nerds. Yeah.

00:01:33.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. um And yeah. And as Nathan said, it's not available anywhere online because of copyright and such, but, but it's close enough to any translation that you might be using that you'll be able to follow along pretty easily.

00:01:39.98
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:01:44.71
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. You will be able to follow along.

00:01:46.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:01:47.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Um, so, um, the three questions to are familiar to us, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text and toward what is God calling you in this text? And then our third question today, um, is to what can we compare the promise of God?

00:02:06.00
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:02:08.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that, um, that sounds, uh, that's echoes.

00:02:09.10
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Good question.

00:02:13.34
Kevin Shock
If that sounds familiar to anybody, um Jesus says this, asks those kinds of things when he's getting deep in the parables and the gospels. Um, and as I was reading this, there wasn't, there wasn't and another clear question that came into my head. So that's, that's what we're going with.

00:02:31.08
Nathan Pile
All right. Sounds good. I'm looking forward to it.

00:02:32.04
Kevin Shock
Uh, Yeah. Here's some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

00:02:44.83
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of the none of this makes us a better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:02:57.63
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your perspective and life experience.

00:03:11.73
Kevin Shock
Again, from Genesis 15, the Robert Alter translation. After these things, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision saying, Fear not, Abram, I am your shield.

00:03:25.02
Kevin Shock
Your reward shall be very great. And Abram said, o my master lord what can you give me when I am going to going to my end childless and the steward of my household is damasekk eleazar and Abrams said look to me you have given no seed and here a member of my household is to be my heir and now the word of the lord came to him saying this one will not be your heir but he who issues from your loins will be your heir

00:03:56.18
Kevin Shock
And he took him outside and he said, Look up to the heavens and count the stars if you can count them. And he said, show So shall be your seed. And he trusted in the Lord and he reckoned it to his merit.

00:04:11.02
Kevin Shock
And he said to him, I am the Lord who brought you out of ur of the Chaldees to give you this land to inherit. And he said, Oh, my master, Lord, how shall I know that I shall inherit it?

00:04:24.29
Kevin Shock
And he said to him, take me a three-year-old heifer and a three-year-old she goat and a three-year-old ram and a turtle dove and a young pigeon. And he took all of these and clove them through the middle and each set his and each set his part opposite the other.

00:04:40.60
Kevin Shock
But the birds he did not cleave. And carrion birds came down on the carcasses and Abram drove them off. And as the sun was about to set, a deep slumber fell upon Abram, and now a great dark dread came falling upon him.

00:04:58.50
Kevin Shock
And just as the sun had set, there was a thick gloom, and look, a smoking brazier with a flaming torch that passed between those parts. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, To your seed I have given this land from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates.

00:05:20.21
Kevin Shock
All right, if you are meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. ah Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

00:05:34.88
Nathan Pile
ah It was ah towards the beginning there as you were reading. um I'm going to go back here and look somewhere around verse 2. um Oh, my master Lord, what can you give me when I am going to my end childless?

00:05:50.14
Nathan Pile
It is not... ah it it is not um

00:06:03.16
Nathan Pile
So it strikes me here, the, the, um and, and it was that word childless that, that, uh, that struck me. Um, I don't know if I've ever talked about this on this space.

00:06:14.89
Nathan Pile
Um, but, um, when, so whatever, 13 years ago, um, more than that, uh, now, maybe 15 years ago, uh,

00:06:26.76
Nathan Pile
uh Angie and I struggled a long time to have children and um and we needed actually to needed help with being able to have a child and so eventually we had tried four times we were on the last attempt that we were gonna try and that's when Rachel was born so um so there was a part of this text when you read that phrase um There was a time, it was a short time, just a couple of years.

00:06:56.99
Nathan Pile
But I even had to, you know, in my head, probably growing up as a kid, I always thought that I would someday be a parent. and um And then there was kind of a reality check for a couple of years of maybe I won't be a parent.

00:07:12.91
Nathan Pile
um And I even think I came to peace with the idea as we started the fourth round of IVF. that maybe this one wouldn't work either. And so I needed to come to the fact that I might yeah and that might we that I might be childless.

00:07:30.58
Nathan Pile
And so hearing that phrase here kind of struck up some of those memories in my own life of what that was like and what the thing, what things I thought about and processed through and how that would change an identity that I had envisioned for myself of being a parent.

00:07:50.27
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:07:51.06
Nathan Pile
Um, and so, uh, so all of that kind of came up as you read that for me, um, hearing that word childless and, and the emotion

00:08:05.93
Nathan Pile
that would have been tied to Abram, but that I too would have lived at least for a short period of time. Now I didn't, I wasn't in my old age or anything like that when this was going on um in my lifetime. but But, and so here Abram is is, and he was more like, I think for me, it was more about being a parent and less about having an heir um

00:08:30.42
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:08:32.29
Nathan Pile
But I could at least, I could, there's there's at least a part of me that thought, I can relate to a little bit of what Abram is feeling here of getting, you know, moving in life. At least there was something that he thought was going to be the case and it was not the case.

00:08:52.37
Nathan Pile
And so being able to kind of think that through for for myself a little bit as i as I hear this for him. Now, again, was... this is a patriarchal society where having a male heir was important.

00:09:06.52
Nathan Pile
Um, and that was, there's a part of that, that, that is, you know, evident in his, his emotions and, and what he's kind of sharing and what he's seeking from God.

00:09:20.59
Nathan Pile
um I think from for us, it was much more of a, can't we just be a parent?

00:09:31.07
Nathan Pile
ah um

00:09:31.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:09:32.41
Nathan Pile
and Because yeah it's not so much that we were worried about, you know if we were have to have a kid, that kid becomes the heir, no matter what it is. It wasn't something that, it's no longer tied to like the whatever property or whatever is only tied to our male heir. That wasn't a thing for us.

00:09:52.68
Nathan Pile
so So I think that was the piece that, that, that struck me was both a personal connection to that word. um but also some of the feelings that went with that.

00:10:05.68
Nathan Pile
Um, again, i wasn't at the end of my life, but there was for us, we were kind of at the end of our our road of IVF. And so, um, and really the reason we were at the end of the road, cause we were out of money, you know, insurance was kind of covering that for us.

00:10:20.98
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:10:23.26
Nathan Pile
Um, our insurance was helping us do some of that. And so, and, and this last time we, we had depleted our resources and our insurance resources to kind of help make that happen. So, um so like we knew it was the end.

00:10:39.33
Nathan Pile
So that part of it, there's some finality to that. It wasn't so much we that we were worried about that our life was ending kind of a thing. So, so that's what struck me.

00:10:50.86
Nathan Pile
Um, ah about about this pattern was that word and and then the emotions that got tied to it for our for me, but also it allowed me to feel a little bit connected to Abram in his space and time.

00:11:02.85
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm

00:11:07.04
Nathan Pile
so Yeah.

00:11:07.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Um, a couple of things. One, ah I, that the memory of you and Angie coming back from Pittsburgh, because we were, we were all at camp together.

00:11:22.42
Kevin Shock
This was before you worked at camp and we were chaplains and I can't remember if Pricey was there or Will was there.

00:11:24.35
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

00:11:27.81
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:11:30.69
Kevin Shock
There was one other person there.

00:11:30.81
Nathan Pile
I don't know. Yeah.

00:11:33.60
Kevin Shock
and And I can remember sitting on the porch of Boys FAC when you guys came back and ah and just that um sharing sharing in some of that joy that the two of you were feeling.

00:11:41.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:47.86
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah yeah

00:11:49.87
Kevin Shock
Like that's a that's just a, that's one of those memories that's seared into my and into my body.

00:11:54.01
Nathan Pile
sticks in there yeah yeah

00:11:56.14
Kevin Shock
yeah um I remember it was a gorgeous day too.

00:12:00.55
Nathan Pile
yeah it was beautiful day and and you're right that was this was the like we were here as chaplains working with the kids and bible study and worship that kind stuff but we had to go to pittsburgh and it was the did did everything take was kind of the day it was the day um and so yeah yeah that was a um

00:12:01.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:09.63
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:12:18.00
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

00:12:24.78
Nathan Pile
as that we were both kind of full of nerves. I remember that, but to have the good news that it was gonna, that it had all taken place. So, yep.

00:12:32.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Um, the other reflection though, on what you said, I, I really appreciate that you, um, brought up the term identity that, um, this, this struggle that the two of you had, um you, you had to reckon a little bit with how this would affect your identity because having a child or children was always, you said you always felt like that was a part of who you, who you were.

00:12:41.97
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:12:54.89
Nathan Pile
For me, sure. In my head. Yeah.

00:12:57.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Uh, and, um, And the possibility that that wasn't going to be ah part of your life um made you have to reckon with your identity. And and the reason I you know the reason um I appreciate that you brought that up is because that's exactly what's happening to Abram here.

00:13:15.82
Kevin Shock
um it's There are lots of identity pieces at question for Abram.

00:13:21.23
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:13:22.86
Kevin Shock
And in fact, it's only two more chapters in chapter 17 where Abram becomes Abraham.

00:13:32.01
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:13:32.23
Kevin Shock
is His identity changes. um not ah Well, his identity changes because when when he's given... um I'm not sure.

00:13:42.74
Kevin Shock
ah ah I trust that the the writers and editors of Hebrew Scripture... have more wisdom than i do um I I'm almost not sure why he doesn't uh why his identity doesn't change here yeah um but when it changes is when he gets specifics about the promise he's he's visited by the mysterious holy messengers who say by the time we return you will have you will have a child um and that's when Sarai

00:13:57.81
Nathan Pile
At the promise. Yeah. No.

00:14:15.13
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:14:19.53
Kevin Shock
laughs at their suggestion and she becomes Sarah.

00:14:21.77
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:14:22.67
Kevin Shock
He becomes Abraham. Um, o but, uh,

00:14:26.31
Nathan Pile
Well, but yeah, I understand your point too. and And if we, and if you read the notes in this, this is the first time the verb tense is in the perfect as opposed to the

00:14:42.14
Kevin Shock
Oh, the imperfect.

00:14:43.56
Nathan Pile
Was it the imperfect? Yes.

00:14:46.02
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:14:46.46
Nathan Pile
And so your point makes a valid one in is in that now this is as of the, the authors or the people writing this down, at least

00:14:46.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:14:49.21
Kevin Shock
couldn't

00:14:56.71
Nathan Pile
um this is when it becomes definitive that the promise is going to be

00:15:05.56
Nathan Pile
accomplished um before it's the imperfect and so we we're just kind of alluded that it's that it's coming and it's um it's a proclamation of promise that will be eventually come upon Abraham and Sarah but but here this is the first time that it's in the perfect which again for people like Kevin everybody who was a language guy

00:15:07.43
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah

00:15:32.60
Nathan Pile
um that means something for me, for me, and whatever, you know, and somebody has to tell me that it means something.

00:15:36.21
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it does mean something. Yeah.

00:15:40.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:15:42.64
Nathan Pile
Um, hence the notes that I read, that told me that

00:15:45.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. well Well, I'll tell you exactly what it means. ah Not just you, Nathan.

00:15:49.59
Nathan Pile
lay it out, buddy, lay it out.

00:15:50.95
Kevin Shock
Um, that, yeah, well, and more, more so language nerd, maybe, um, that's what makes Hebrew so difficult for a lot of people, myself included.

00:15:51.67
Nathan Pile
Church nerd, church nerd, church nerd.

00:16:02.35
Kevin Shock
Uh, I did not master Hebrew. i have a, I have a basic understanding of it, but I didn't master it by any stretch of the imagination. Um, is that it really just has two verb tenses.

00:16:13.14
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:16:13.20
Kevin Shock
It perfect and imperfect and not, not past, present, future, like we have in English. um So it the differentiation is is things that are, when you're talking about something that is uncertain, so a memory that you can't, something happened in the past that you're not sure about the details, ah something that may or may not happen in the present, an uncertainty in the future, those are all imperfect, but perfect are things that are are solid.

00:16:40.24
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:16:40.39
Kevin Shock
When you're talking about something that's solid that either definitively happened in the past or is is is the state of being right now or is absolutely going to happen in the future. And so it's important from a language perspective that the promise of God is in the perfect tense.

00:16:57.63
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:16:58.16
Kevin Shock
um And I think it's connected to, you know, biblical for biblical Hebrew, ah the the. I don't know, maybe some people who are listening here have seen um in in artwork, in in Hebrew artwork, there are times whenever because the name of God is holy, that the the Alef-bet or the the alphabet is holy in and of itself.

00:17:24.56
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:17:24.76
Kevin Shock
and And there are depictions in sacred Hebrew art where God is represented by the by the Alef-bet. And um and that's yeah, because the word, the the word like not not the word as we.

00:17:43.63
Kevin Shock
In Christian circles, so understand it, although it's related, I think, um but you know the law is the law is written, it's it's given in language and ah and when God speaks.

00:17:58.14
Kevin Shock
Every ah well, okay. In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, God spoke everything into being language. Language was the creator language, both issued forth from the creator and was the the creator in of itself.

00:18:08.93
Nathan Pile
and

00:18:16.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so language nerd stuff aside, two tenses, that's all. um i

00:18:24.19
Nathan Pile
but Thank you. That was, ah but it was helpful. i imagine people listening also found it helpful.

00:18:27.52
Kevin Shock
but But going back to the reason why I'm not sure that the identity hasn't changed here, ah ah what you say, I think, is vitally important.

00:18:28.14
Nathan Pile
So.

00:18:35.12
Kevin Shock
But the other thing is that this is the place where, um and Abram, I'm using Abram, I'm using names here because um it's it's a little confusing when we're reading altar the page, every reference to God is capitalized.

00:18:57.58
Kevin Shock
And so we have a, and he said, and he said, ah when we're reading it verbally and it, it might not always be clear exactly who the, he is. Um, but so, and Abram trusted in the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to his merit, or as we hear in lots of other translations, more familiar to us and, and God reckoned it to him as righteousness.

00:19:22.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:19:23.06
Kevin Shock
um So this is the place where ah we and where Abram Abram definitively trusts God at God's word.

00:19:34.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:19:34.92
Kevin Shock
And and so that's just that's the reason why I'm not sure that the identity doesn't change here, um except that we get some more details. About the promise in two chapters.

00:19:47.14
Kevin Shock
So, yeah, yeah.

00:19:47.14
Nathan Pile
In two chapters. Sure.

00:19:49.65
Kevin Shock
um But for me to answer the question, ah

00:19:52.01
Nathan Pile
Yeah. What's your response?

00:19:54.23
Kevin Shock
I'm ah it To me, it's that that it's that image and the and what God says about the stars of the heavens. ah that just That always captures my imagination.

00:20:06.46
Kevin Shock
um

00:20:06.59
Nathan Pile
Great.

00:20:07.57
Kevin Shock
and knowing that ah I know I've talked on this podcast before about the the scene I experienced in in northern Namibia whenever I went outside at night and And it was just it was like looking at a television with static to see the stars ah because there was no light pollution anywhere.

00:20:27.05
Nathan Pile
right

00:20:27.15
Kevin Shock
um and And knowing that Abram is in that same kind of situation where he's in the desert, ah of course there's no light pollution.

00:20:38.76
Kevin Shock
um and ah And so for that image, for God to take him outside and show him that night sky, and say, this is how many your descendants will be. I what a it's it's It's unfathomable,

00:20:57.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:20:58.00
Kevin Shock
ah the promise that God is giving to him. And um and I and I think the thing that I love about that is that God gives him an unfathomable thing and Abram's response is to trust it.

00:21:16.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:21:16.97
Kevin Shock
And for me, it ah

00:21:21.07
Kevin Shock
I think there's a part of me, the rational part of me says, it doesn't make sense that trust comes forth from something unfathomable. But the

00:21:36.06
Kevin Shock
but the part of me that's driven not by logic, but by love says, that's exactly when it makes sense.

00:21:43.83
Nathan Pile
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:47.03
Kevin Shock
if If God created all of these stars, the whole universe, just by speaking it into existence, then why could not the same God speak a child into existence?

00:22:03.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:22:03.60
Kevin Shock
um Yeah. Yeah. but But it it definitely, i don't know. there's Maybe there's a lot for me to unpack here. It definitely requires that you let go of logic.

00:22:16.54
Kevin Shock
and, and embrace the mystery and embrace the wonder of it all.

00:22:16.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:22:20.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:22:21.99
Nathan Pile
Well, and that's a, that's a great, um, a great piece for us to think about and reflect upon, I think as, as, as, as believers, um, I was going to say as Christians, but I, it can be as simple as just simply being a believer in that, um, we just had a retreat here at camp and and we were, um,

00:22:38.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:22:43.93
Nathan Pile
talking about Richard Rohr's book on the second half of life, first half and second half of life.

00:22:49.00
Kevin Shock
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

00:22:49.11
Nathan Pile
And that a part of the second half of life is that we have to become comfortable with the mystery that is God. um And the only way that happens is really when we fall down.

00:23:01.89
Nathan Pile
Like, the The first half of life is about building ourselves up and building a life and finding a career and finding a family and people or or or friends and people that we're going to spend time with, where we're going to live.

00:23:10.40
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm

00:23:14.14
Nathan Pile
All of those pieces is the first half of life. But when when that container breaks, when it falls apart, because... you no you get fired from your work or you'll or um your marriage ends, you separate, or maybe a loved one dies.

00:23:32.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. yeah

00:23:36.69
Nathan Pile
All of a sudden, that thing that we've carefully created falls apart. We thought we could control it. um A big piece of this as as believers is there's a mystery of who God is and how God works in our world.

00:23:51.96
Nathan Pile
and and And until we realize that we really can't control anything, that we need to embrace that piece of mystery of of of the of of how God is working in the world and and even out of death brings life.

00:24:09.96
Nathan Pile
You know, again, as Christians, we believe that we celebrate Easter, we celebrate resurrection.

00:24:16.70
Nathan Pile
But when you're in the first half of life, it's hard to... it's hard to understand everything crumbling because we're so but we spend so much time building up what this thing is.

00:24:28.36
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm

00:24:28.37
Nathan Pile
doesn't mean that young people like a 20 year old or a 30 year old, when they have something traumatic or tragic happen in their life, they too can be in that second half of life because now they feel helpless.

00:24:38.98
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm

00:24:41.59
Nathan Pile
they They don't have control. And so it's not just about, you know, being, you know, before 50 and after 50. That's, it's not about age.

00:24:50.59
Kevin Shock
Why did you choose that number specifically?

00:24:50.57
Nathan Pile
It's more about,

00:24:53.68
Nathan Pile
to because somebody in this group is firmly in second half of life.

00:24:59.28
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:24:59.71
Nathan Pile
Um, and another member, another member of the group is still clinging to the first half of life.

00:25:00.32
Kevin Shock
That's right, he is.

00:25:07.04
Nathan Pile
Um, clinging is the word I will use clinging desperately holding on. Um, so that's why I picked 50. Um, and if you, uh, if you listen at all, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

00:25:18.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, of course, of course.

00:25:19.05
Nathan Pile
Um, um,

00:25:24.11
Nathan Pile
so yeah so So that piece of mystery, when you use that word mystery, it kind of sparks me to to remind me that that that Abraham

00:25:36.88
Nathan Pile
is trusting the mystery.

00:25:39.86
Kevin Shock
Yes. Mm

00:25:41.78
Nathan Pile
um and And that's where the phrase that you kind of used there in chapter six, he reckoned, so he God, God reckoned it to Abra- Abram's merit um it's because we use he twice there but um but to to kind of so so god this this promise is happening because Abraham trusts god ah trusts the mystery um something about the stars something about this encounter with God

00:25:57.29
Kevin Shock
hmm.

00:26:21.56
Nathan Pile
um now has Abram trusting that this is, this is going to be the case. Um, no, doesn't mean he's not going to question it again.

00:26:34.19
Nathan Pile
um

00:26:34.96
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's a bumpy road after this.

00:26:37.27
Nathan Pile
cause Abram is Abram is human. Um, but in this moment in time, Abraham trusts his faith and trusts the, you know, has faith, um, that God's going to do what God promises to do.

00:26:41.56
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:26:45.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:51.16
Nathan Pile
Um, But that mystery piece is just so powerful. and And we can't talk enough about it because um because there's because God is bigger than you and I can and ever imagine.

00:27:10.65
Nathan Pile
And so, yeah. So, I yeah, I appreciate your your reflection, your thoughts.

00:27:14.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, and and I appreciate your flushing it out because it it now now it makes me think, and and also bringing up that this that things were not just perfect from here on out, that you know there there were there were some bumps in the road.

00:27:26.51
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:27:29.27
Kevin Shock
um is is the nicest...

00:27:33.15
Nathan Pile
and And Abram tries to control the situation and Sarai, tries to control the situation.

00:27:35.76
Kevin Shock
ah yeah Right, right, right, right, right.

00:27:38.70
Nathan Pile
We as humans tried to, to make the container, you know, so they, they fall back into the first half of life things.

00:27:39.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:45.44
Nathan Pile
They fall back into that. They try to make it happen. Yeah.

00:27:48.81
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

00:27:50.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:27:51.00
Kevin Shock
Yeah. so that's, and and I can't remember exactly what I said before you last spoke, but about letting letting go of logic and embracing the wonder, um mystery, the wonder.

00:28:00.97
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:28:03.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um But what, what you reflected on, and then bringing up that things did not go perfectly is because um the the trust falters, whenever Abram starts saying, Well, how is this going to happen?

00:28:21.45
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah

00:28:23.08
Kevin Shock
It there's a there's a sense whenever he and the Holy One are alone out there on the deserted plane in the middle of the night looking up at the stars of the sky that Abram in his heart of hearts says, yes, this is it.

00:28:42.85
Kevin Shock
This is going to take place. and And then, you know, after he after he sleeps off the wonder, And goes back saying, but wait, how is this going to take place?

00:28:54.22
Kevin Shock
That's when he starts to falter.

00:28:55.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:28:56.63
Kevin Shock
and that's when That's when he loses trust. And as as you said,

00:29:03.85
Kevin Shock
so accurately, and tries to take control of the situation. That's exactly it. and And the whole time, God is...

00:29:10.67
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:29:12.51
Kevin Shock
um um

00:29:17.79
Kevin Shock
God I think God is attempting to keep putting the wonder in front of Abram um so that Abram remembers that, oh, yeah, this this is what I'm trusting. not the Not the details, not the logistics, not the the how of it, um but but the wonder.

00:29:39.04
Kevin Shock
and And actually, that brings to mind you know some... Uh, you know, everyone talks about, we stand on the shoulders of giants. The, the, some of the giants in the faith for me are, uh, people who may be known to people who listen to this podcast.

00:29:53.31
Kevin Shock
And that's, uh, two pastors, uh, now retired in the Allegheny Synod, Scott and Carol Custead, uh, who were my confirmation pastors, amongst other things.

00:29:59.67
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:30:04.73
Kevin Shock
They, they, they played many other roles in my life as well, including ordination sponsors.

00:30:09.32
Nathan Pile
sure

00:30:11.66
Kevin Shock
Um, But I remember, I still remember from when I was in confirmation class back in 1980, whatever, um Carol Custead saying that the talking about the point of the Bible, the point of the Bible is who, not how, who, not how.

00:30:28.67
Kevin Shock
That was the big chant.

00:30:30.52
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:30:30.58
Kevin Shock
And um and that's that's what that's what Abram's problem becomes, is that he becomes more interested in the how, not who.

00:30:38.65
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:30:41.17
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:30:41.80
Kevin Shock
When he's just focused on the who, that is the Lord, ah no problem.

00:30:41.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:30:46.18
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:30:48.02
Kevin Shock
Trusting. Everything's going to turn out exactly as God says it's going to turn out. um When he starts getting worried about the how... that's That's when it becomes problematic. Yeah.

00:30:58.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:30:58.42
Kevin Shock
and that's And that was that was Pastor Carol's, um that was her whole point is that if if we start getting into the weeds about, well, how did God create, make creation? How did this happen? How did that happen?

00:31:11.37
Kevin Shock
The Bible is not intended to answer those questions. It's, um and well this is, yeah, I'm kind of surprised that I can like recite some of this stuff.

00:31:23.39
Kevin Shock
the The purpose of the

00:31:23.40
Nathan Pile
She pounded it into your head, man.

00:31:25.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, the purpose of the Bible is to awaken and sustain faith. That's, and, and, and that's what happens to, that's what happens to Abram in this passage.

00:31:39.04
Kevin Shock
His faith is awakened by, by the wonder and the promise that God sits before him.

00:31:40.65
Nathan Pile
Wakened. Yeah.

00:31:45.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So, so thanks to the pastors Custead for, um, for etching those terms into my into my brain. And they still apply today and will until the Lord comes again.

00:32:00.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:32:01.56
Kevin Shock
ah Nathan, let's look at this a second time.

00:32:01.80
Nathan Pile
No. We definitely need to move on to a second time.

00:32:07.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that was good discussion, but yeah, let's move on.

00:32:07.62
Nathan Pile
We definitely need to move on. Yeah.

00:32:13.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah. 15th chapter. After these things,

00:32:20.27
Nathan Pile
the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram. I am your shield. Your reward shall be very great.

00:32:33.95
Nathan Pile
And Abram said, O my master lord, what can you give me when I am going to my end childless, and the steward of my household is Damasek El Elizer?

00:32:49.76
Nathan Pile
And Abram said, Look to me. You have given no seed, and here a member of my household is to be my heir. And now the word of the Lord came to him, saying, This one will not be your heir, but he who issues from your loins will be your heir. heir And he took him outside, and he said, Look up to the heavens and count the stars, if you can count them.

00:33:18.48
Nathan Pile
And he said, So shall be your seed. And he trusted the Lord, and God reckoned it to his merit. And God said to him, I am the Lord who brought you out of ur of the Chaldees to give you this land to inherit.

00:33:40.10
Nathan Pile
And he said, O my master, Lord, how shall I know that i shall inherit it? And God said to him, Take me a three-year-old heifer, and a three-year-old she-goat, and a three-year-old ram, and a turtle dove, and a young pigeon.

00:33:57.81
Nathan Pile
And he took all of these and clove them through the middle, and each set his part opposite the other. But the birds he did not cleave.

00:34:09.24
Nathan Pile
And carrion birds came down on the carcasses, and Abram drove them off. And as the sun was about to set, a deep slumber fell upon Abram, and now a great dark dread came falling upon him.

00:34:26.97
Nathan Pile
And just as the sun had set, there was a thick gloom, and look, a smoking breezier. and a flaming torch that passed between these parts. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, To your seed I have given this land from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates.

00:34:53.12
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:35:01.24
Kevin Shock
Um, it not to be too reductionist, but, uh, to embrace the wonder, um, we, we live in an information age and, uh, well, they,

00:35:09.15
Nathan Pile
All

00:35:16.04
Nathan Pile
right.

00:35:23.94
Kevin Shock
I would, I would love to say the that logic rules, but I don't believe that to be the case. Um, what I do believe is that the, um, the desire for logic rules and, um, who and I, yeah.

00:35:33.02
Nathan Pile
all right

00:35:44.60
Kevin Shock
And I think that there, that people would do better to embrace the wonder.

00:35:53.30
Kevin Shock
Um,

00:35:56.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah. A couple of, couple of things I'll say about that. One, um, just part of, part of my call in the office of the Bishop right now is to provide some factual information for congregations that are been, are being given, what they're told is factual information from another denomination.

00:36:20.13
Kevin Shock
And, uh, And I've come to the conclusion after having some conversations with people about this, that um the facts don't matter. um ah I can, you know, you can give me the charges or the accusations that are being brought about the ELCA or the Allegheny Synod.

00:36:41.86
Kevin Shock
And and I can I can take you to a primary source online, you know, like our church constitution and show you exactly where that is not true. the things, the complaints that are being lodged.

00:36:54.11
Kevin Shock
Um, but it doesn't matter because if you already believe it, you already believe it. and And all that, all the facts will do is it will throw you off your game for a little bit. So I have come to realize that what is, what is ultimately at stake is whether people embrace wonder and mystery or people embrace fear and suspicion.

00:37:22.36
Kevin Shock
And if you're going to embrace, if if you're, if you're hell bent, I guess, pun intended hell bent on embracing fear and suspicion that will be your end.

00:37:36.38
Kevin Shock
Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. and And I by no means am saying that the ELCA has the corner on the market of, ah you know, corners of the market on wonder and and ah um ah want wonder and mystery.

00:37:52.27
Kevin Shock
ah But um because there are plenty of ways that we don't do that and screw things up. um But I think I think that individuals can...

00:38:06.92
Kevin Shock
make those decisions for themselves. And I also think that, um, when individuals make those kinds of decisions for themselves, the the community is changed or the community reflects what the, and what the individuals are embracing.

00:38:27.80
Kevin Shock
And, um, and in communities where everyone is embracing fear and suspicion, but for different reasons, that's when it gets really volatile because then it just becomes, then, then everyone is held bent on fear and suspicion, but they're being fearful and suspicious about different things, which just makes the, makes the wedge of division that much more powerful between them.

00:39:02.97
Kevin Shock
Um, Yeah, so that's that's one thing. The other thing is that, man, Nathan, I have had this earworm in my head for the last, I don't know how many days, but I was reminded of this song. When I was a little kid, my you know we always went to the Lutheran Church. We always grew up in the Lutheran Church, but my, my mom, when I was a little kid, and and her ah her life of faith really,

00:39:31.76
Kevin Shock
like started to grow, started to blossom in a different way. Um, it, it was because that she had been introduced to like some different faith perspectives.

00:39:42.85
Kevin Shock
And, uh, and I think of that core was always there for her, but there were there, she was hearing some new things and being involved with different communities and things like that, that, um,

00:39:55.21
Kevin Shock
that really made her look at faith in a new way. And I think part of it was related to whenever, uh, my aunt, her sister, um I mean, to use the terminology of that day in the early 1980s, uh, became born again.

00:40:10.42
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:40:11.01
Kevin Shock
And, and, and I mean, what that really means is that, uh, she, she rediscovered God through the church in a, in a different way than what she had known before.

00:40:22.35
Kevin Shock
And, um,

00:40:26.18
Kevin Shock
And so there were some, uh, there were some songs and music that were played in the car. This was before i was old enough to have control of the radio, uh, that, um, that I just remember, like, you know, there, you hear things as a little kid, do you see things as a little kid that you're, that just stick with you.

00:40:46.09
Kevin Shock
And I have never been a fan of like contemporary Christian music. Um, But there was one artist that my mom used to listen to that she got from my aunt, whose name his name is Leon Petillo.

00:41:01.03
Kevin Shock
And he was a contemporary Christian musician, but he had come through like I think that he played for Santana back in the 1960s and 70s.

00:41:10.52
Nathan Pile
no

00:41:11.10
Kevin Shock
So he had like he had like rock and roll Latin rock like bona fides.

00:41:15.14
Nathan Pile
Roots. Yeah.

00:41:16.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I mean, he yeah, he he was a he was a musician. He wasn't just like, he he wasn't just faking it. um but But he has he has a song that it it got stuck in, it like the name came to me a few days ago. And so I looked it up. And of course, there's a video on YouTube that is just like,

00:41:36.23
Kevin Shock
laughable because it's so 1980s and, and the song, the song definitely has some like early nineteen eighty s elements to it, but it is, it's at its core though, like a driving, like pop song and like, and like has a kind of funky baseline to it and stuff, but it's, it's called love calling. And the whole premise of the song is that, uh, this, this love is coming from somewhere beyond earth and contacting the earth people and saying, i want you to embrace my ways.

00:42:10.65
Nathan Pile
Thank you.

00:42:11.71
Kevin Shock
And, and honestly, like it's, I think the lyrics are pretty powerful because it's not just about, it is not, it is not the early eighties contemporary Christian, like ah Jesus is your friend. So embrace Jesus. So you don't go to hell, you know, accept Jesus into your life. It's not that kind of stuff. It's, it's it's a real kind of like,

00:42:35.42
Kevin Shock
love, you know, embodied love is contacting us and saying, I've been here all along. And like, at times you have embraced me at times you have tried to communicate with me, but this is like, this is the answer.

00:42:50.52
Kevin Shock
and And there's one verse that talks about like, uh, scientists have been searching for immortality and astronauts.

00:42:50.65
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:42:57.50
Kevin Shock
I can't remember exactly what he says, but astronauts go to the skies to, to find our destiny. Um, But the end of that verse is love holds the key to all life's mysteries.

00:43:11.06
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:43:13.61
Kevin Shock
And I mean, I I feel like that's what we're talking about here, that that as long as Abram is embracing the wonder. He's trusting. He's good. Like he he he's righteous.

00:43:26.19
Kevin Shock
And then but then when he tries to, like, control things and and and get the right facts, the right information ah um about how this is going to happen, then then he starts to stumble.

00:43:39.22
Kevin Shock
And um and the answer for him all along is that is God's love and God's promise for him.

00:43:48.85
Kevin Shock
Nothing, and like nothing ever changes from that.

00:43:51.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:43:52.14
Kevin Shock
Um, but, but he tries to find the answer through other means. And, and that's where he, that's where he loses his, uh, loses his focus. So anyway, um, embracing the mystery and the wonder that's the, that's what I'm being called toward. What about you, Nathan?

00:44:12.39
Nathan Pile
Um, I never heard the song, but I would say ditto. Um,

00:44:20.73
Nathan Pile
the, this piece of, no, I'm not saying it is.

00:44:21.58
Kevin Shock
it's not a bad song. yeah

00:44:24.34
Nathan Pile
I'm not saying, no, not saying it is.

00:44:26.04
Kevin Shock
I'm just surprised that I don't think it's a bad song 40 years later, but anyway.

00:44:26.43
Nathan Pile
Um, it's, well, it's going to, uh, 40 years later, right now, the, the, the parts of the song that you remember, have come full circle for you.

00:44:30.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:44:36.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, absolutely.

00:44:36.71
Nathan Pile
Um, as I am sure when you were in the backseat of that car, you were like, this song is terrible, mom.

00:44:37.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:44:41.57
Kevin Shock
But that was the thing.

00:44:42.29
Nathan Pile
Um, you

00:44:43.00
Kevin Shock
those two Those two albums that my mom had of his, I did I did not mind those.

00:44:48.47
Nathan Pile
didn't, you didn't mind the part.

00:44:49.84
Kevin Shock
No, like they were like they were decent pop music, which, ah again, I can't always say for contemporary Christian music.

00:44:57.92
Kevin Shock
Anyway, not that I have any biases or anything.

00:45:01.30
Nathan Pile
Right. um No. So for me, it's the same thing. It's, it's that piece of how do we hold on to the mystery and, and you've done a nice job um before. And, and in this response, that idea of our control, when we, when we try to take ownership for, um,

00:45:25.85
Nathan Pile
for doing for for having enough faith or um or whatever it is we think needs to happen when when we try to take control and make it ours um when it comes to this relationship with god um we've lost sight of the God who gives the God who loves the God, who is that mystery, who sustains us when we don't know that. And so

00:45:57.10
Nathan Pile
um

00:46:00.29
Nathan Pile
when we're, when we try to, to, to hunker down and make it happen, we've lost, we've lost sight of this, this loving God who,

00:46:15.32
Nathan Pile
sustains us, embraces us, guides us, you

00:46:21.05
Nathan Pile
you know, and and the and and and we get into the place of what do I have to do

00:46:29.36
Nathan Pile
to make to live in right relationship or what, or how do I make this happen? Those are the wrong, quite like we're on the wrong, we're on the wrong trail. We need to back up um and, and recognize that, that, that it's not about our doing, um but it's about embracing that this, this part of mystery that is God and recognizing

00:46:38.99
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:46:57.81
Nathan Pile
that there is something ah in our own curiosity that drives us to to learn, to want to know um

00:47:10.69
Nathan Pile
this this mystery of who God is.

00:47:14.95
Nathan Pile
but when But when we stop seeking in curiosity, when we stop um seeking the mystery and and are more about um making the plan or or the how and and that we're the one doing those pieces, we've we've lost sight of who of this relationship that that God is intending for us.

00:47:41.70
Nathan Pile
So yeah but how do we how do we live in that mystery? how do we How do we sometimes not know?

00:47:46.57
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:47:49.81
Nathan Pile
How do we, you know, can we

00:47:56.07
Nathan Pile
Can we be okay in the gray instead of black and white? um You know, and I think those are, those are challenges that I live with. Like there's there's definitely times, that you know, I, I've, I've said, boy, God, it would really be helpful if I got a big flashing sign right now.

00:48:11.58
Nathan Pile
Um, be helpful to know God, what this, what this is. And, and those, those prayers, uh, those prayer petitions often, you know, make me feel like, boy, God's not listening right now.

00:48:25.18
Nathan Pile
um

00:48:26.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:48:26.25
Nathan Pile
but I'm probably not looking in the right places either. you know um I'm wanting I'm wanting something tangible to just tell me what I need to do. um And and the the mystery of God is usually, it is it is present and it is usually usually deeper than I give it credit for, but I but I have to I have to back off, slow down.

00:48:50.15
Nathan Pile
I need to listen. I need to pause. I need to do things to recognize the presence of God is is surrounding me in whatever that is, whatever that moment is, what I'm trying to to control or do or whatever that would look like.

00:49:04.20
Nathan Pile
yeah.

00:49:07.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:49:07.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:49:08.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Thanks. All right.

00:49:10.66
Nathan Pile
we're the third time.

00:49:10.85
Kevin Shock
We're going looking at time. We're going look at it a third time.

00:49:13.10
Nathan Pile
Yep.

00:49:14.68
Kevin Shock
um From Genesis 15. After these things, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision saying, fear not, Abram. I am your shield.

00:49:25.86
Kevin Shock
Your reward shall be very great. And Abram said, Oh, my master, Lord, what can you give me when I'm going to my end childless? And the steward of my household is Damasek Eliezer.

00:49:37.96
Kevin Shock
And Abram said, look to you I have ah Look, to me you have given no seed, and here a member of my household is to be my heir. And now the word of the Lord came to him, saying, This one will not be your heir, but he who issues from your loins will be your heir.

00:49:54.58
Kevin Shock
And he took him outside and he said, look up to the heavens and count the stars if you can count them. And he said, so shall be your seed. And he trusted in the Lord and the Lord reckoned it to his merit.

00:50:07.57
Kevin Shock
And he said to him, I am the Lord who brought you out of ur of the Chaldees to give you this land to inherit. And he said, Oh, my master, Lord, how shall I know that I shall inherit it?

00:50:18.65
Kevin Shock
And he said to him, Take me a three-year-old heifer and a three-year-old she-goat and a three-year-old ram and a turtle dove and a young pigeon. And he took all of these and clove them through the middle and said each set his part opposite the other.

00:50:33.33
Kevin Shock
But the birds he did not cleave. And carrion birds came down on the carcasses, and Abram drove them off. And as the sun was about to set, a deep slumber fell upon Abram, and now a great dark dread came falling upon him.

00:50:48.88
Kevin Shock
And just as the sun had set, there was a thick gloom, and look, a smoking brazier with a flaming torch that passed between those parts. On that day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, To your seed I have given this land from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates.

00:51:09.72
Kevin Shock
Nathan, to what can we compare the promise of God?

00:51:15.79
Kevin Shock
I'm glad you're answering this first.

00:51:17.42
Nathan Pile
Yeah. yeah ah um there's

00:51:19.47
Kevin Shock
I don't have a good answer for it.

00:51:21.42
Nathan Pile
Well, I have a bit of an answer. It is um it is a ah because we've been talking about the stars.

00:51:23.98
Kevin Shock
Great, good.

00:51:30.84
Nathan Pile
My mind went to some phenomena in nature that connects me to God.

00:51:35.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay.

00:51:37.26
Nathan Pile
And so um so here it is. My answer to this question, um in behind our retreat center, um we cleared a bunch of trees several years ago now.

00:51:52.32
Nathan Pile
and um And a part of that reason was because there was a bunch of water damage to the trees. And so I knew when I got, you know, 75 yards behind the retreat center, there was water that was, had come to the surface and that I could see it.

00:52:08.61
Kevin Shock
Thank

00:52:10.91
Nathan Pile
and and And it was a lot of water. It was a spring. It was water from a spring. And and it and essentially was so wet and damp that it ruined, killed all of the trees below it.

00:52:21.91
Nathan Pile
There's just too much water. So after we cut all the, cleared out all of the dead trees, we worked our way back up. And so we're almost directly behind the retreat center now.

00:52:34.71
Nathan Pile
And I'm with a guy with ah an excavator. And I said, dig right here and he puts and it's perfectly dry ground it doesn't like you can't tell anything is there um but we had and it started right here around right here He took one scoop of dirt.

00:53:05.88
Nathan Pile
Now this was a big excavator, so it was a big s scoop of dirt, but he took one scoop of dirt and boom, water came up out of the ground like it was nobody's business.

00:53:08.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:16.31
Nathan Pile
and And so then we he had him dig a a trench. So we du dug a stream bed to put all of the water in. And so this question of to what can I, can we compare the promise of God?

00:53:29.87
Nathan Pile
The promise of God to me is like that spring. It's there. It's, and it's plentiful, but it, but when I was standing on top of it that day and and many other times, didn't know it was there.

00:53:35.43
Kevin Shock
and yeah

00:53:44.12
Nathan Pile
Didn't, didn't, couldn't, couldn't fathom that it was right in that moment or in that place in space. But one scoop of dirt, you know, essentially and and and all of the time all year round now that stream runs there's so much water from that ground spring that that essentially it moved down through the woods slowly wherever it could find its way to the surface so that down down 50 yards 75 yards it found its way to the surface and then created a bit of a

00:54:18.09
Nathan Pile
you know water I wouldn't even call it a stream because it kind of just spread out ah across several several area feet of so it this big long kind of wet area became a wet swamp kind of space and that's what killed off all of these trees but it all had it comes back to that one singular place and

00:54:26.02
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:54:41.26
Nathan Pile
where you were standing, you wouldn't have known it was there. But for us to have just taken one scoop of ground, maybe two or three feet deep and boom, that spring wasn't a geyser, but it shot up out of the ground that you're like, boom, here it is.

00:54:55.04
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:54:57.01
Nathan Pile
And so this idea of God's promise, the thing I love about this image is that it's that it's there, it's always flowing. Sometimes it's beneath the surface and I don't see it.

00:55:08.49
Nathan Pile
I can't experience, you know, I'm I'm struggling with it. Just like in the story of Abram, here he sees it, he's reminded of it, but a couple of verses, he'll forget about it because it's not right in front of him. He doesn't, he's not reminded of that promise until so God says it again or visitors remind him or whatever it is.

00:55:27.23
Nathan Pile
um So I think, so that's what I compare this to, that there's, there's God's got this promise that is bountiful and and never stops.

00:55:31.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:55:37.80
Nathan Pile
ah but in reality, sometimes i can lose it within the lay of the ground, the lay of the land.

00:55:46.04
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:55:47.49
Nathan Pile
And so um when I read your question, I again, I was thinking of the the the image of the stars. And so I was trying to think about, well, how do how do I convey this idea of oh abundance of presence of, you know, of eternal presence that it's always there.

00:56:06.77
Nathan Pile
And so this idea of this spring kind of pops into my head.

00:56:13.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah, what a great image. ah Yeah, I I appreciate it.

00:56:15.95
Nathan Pile
So, yeah.

00:56:18.18
Kevin Shock
And I too was trying to think of something from the natural world and was, was ah again, because of the stars and was having trouble. But but as you were talking, the i the thing you said about something being hidden, um but there,

00:56:33.93
Kevin Shock
ah ah I think a thing that's relevant for me right now that answers this question is, um, you know, having had a milestone birthday, um, and having, have, having spouse who, uh, in, um, don't want to make this, I don't want to make Lisa sound.

00:56:57.38
Kevin Shock
and She, she surprised me the level that she went to, to, um, to invite people to celebrate me, um, on this birthday.

00:57:04.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:57:06.00
Kevin Shock
And it was very meaningful, but, but there are some, you know, I received some cards and, uh, and had some people at a party who, you know, we're, I mean, we're, we're open about how they, how they felt about me and how they appreciated me.

00:57:22.37
Kevin Shock
And, uh, it, um,

00:57:27.57
Kevin Shock
you know, it's, it like, it was, it was the event of the birthday that, ah that gave them permission to be open about it. And, uh, and it, you know, I, I'd spent a lot of time this past weekend thinking, oh gosh, I don't deserve this.

00:57:34.83
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:57:42.15
Kevin Shock
I don't, I don't, I don't deserve, you know, having someone feel that way about me or, or, um, you know, the, the, the kind words that people are sharing, like, I don't deserve it.

00:57:43.39
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:57:53.46
Kevin Shock
And I don't, you know, um, but To me, the promise of God isn't isn't about getting getting something that you deserve.

00:58:02.88
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:58:03.80
Kevin Shock
It's just about embracing embracing the love and the wonder that's already present. so

00:58:10.11
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Nice.

00:58:11.66
Kevin Shock
So that's my example.

00:58:12.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:58:13.81
Kevin Shock
ah

00:58:14.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:58:14.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it was um yeah it ah a little a little mysterious and just something that I yeah I feel like I'm I'm not...

00:58:27.27
Kevin Shock
It's not my place to question it, but it is the invitation I've been given to embrace it. So, yeah.

00:58:36.02
Nathan Pile
but Nice.

00:58:36.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:58:38.39
Nathan Pile
Nice. Well, thanks, Kevin, as always, to for sharing your thoughts. um

00:58:44.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah, thank you.

00:58:45.96
Nathan Pile
Additional texts, if you're looking for something else to kind of chew on this week, Psalm 27, in the day of trouble, God will give me shelter.

00:58:57.98
Nathan Pile
Philippians chapter 3 verses 17 through chapter 4 verse 1. Our citizenship in heaven. um Our citizenship is in heaven from where we expect our Savior.

00:59:11.64
Nathan Pile
and And then Luke chapter 13 verse 31 through 35. I have desired to gather Jerusalem like a hen gathers her brood. Yeah.

00:59:24.01
Nathan Pile
Again, the faithfulness of ah of the hen, the faithfulness of of God that we hear about here, both in Abram's story and and and really goes through all of these passages as a part of that key characteristic of who God is being faithful.

00:59:41.66
Nathan Pile
So some so ah some additional text there to kind of wrestle with um this week. And um Kevin, as always, thanks for your reflections. um Those of you listening, we always invite your um your thoughts. So if there's something that our conversation sparked for you, please feel free to share that with us.

01:00:04.43
Nathan Pile
on social media or on, uh, or through an email. And, um, we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:00:13.96
Kevin Shock
And peace