Episode 21: Joshua 5:9-12

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How do you know when a time of transition is complete?

Additional texts:

Psalm 32

2 Corinthians 5:16-21

Luke 15:1-3, 11b-32

Transcript

00:00:00.91
Nathan Pile
Surprise, surprise, surprise. It's time to tend, everybody. Welcome back to Tend the Bible Podcast.

00:00:10.85
Kevin Shock
Thanks, Nathan.

00:00:13.59
Nathan Pile
Yeah, good to be with you.

00:00:14.13
Kevin Shock
Nathan really threw me off because he was still like having conversation with me and I didn't even realize that we were starting, but, um,

00:00:19.87
Nathan Pile
I'm just trying to keep him on his toes, everybody. Trying to keep trying to keep the old old man on his toes.

00:00:23.00
Kevin Shock
he is. Yeah. Yep.

00:00:26.58
Kevin Shock
Yep. That's right. That's right.

00:00:30.69
Nathan Pile
I waited a couple of weeks to throw that one in there. So,

00:00:32.84
Kevin Shock
Hey, last, last night I was somewhere with a group of people and, uh, Someone I know, ah friend of a friend that I know not very well, ah she said to me, someone commented on my old man birthday status, and she said, you can't ah be that much older than I am.

00:00:48.89
Kevin Shock
I said, well, how old are you? And she came right out and she said, 40. Well, I'm 50. Oh, okay.

00:00:56.95
Nathan Pile
She didn't want to argue anymore.

00:00:59.47
Kevin Shock
Oh, no, I, no I said I said I said thank you very much for that. for thinking um we're around the same age. Yeah.

00:01:05.51
Nathan Pile
We're around the same age. Yeah, that's nice. It's nice. Yeah, it doesn't sound like she was saying, see, we're close in age. She didn't say that, though.

00:01:16.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah, she probably did. Anyway.

00:01:18.13
Nathan Pile
oh Oh, you she did she did say that? Or is that just your subconscious hoping, wishing she had said it?

00:01:22.23
Kevin Shock
Stop it. yeah Okay, so aren we we're going to talk about some...

00:01:26.07
Nathan Pile
We're going to talk about Tend a Bible Podcast.

00:01:26.60
Kevin Shock
Oh my gosh.

00:01:28.07
Nathan Pile
That's what we're going to do. After I'm done heckling you. So anyway, ah yeah, so welcome back, everybody. um We are happy to be here together. Today, we're going to look at Joshua, the fifth chapter, verses 9 to 12.

00:01:42.67
Nathan Pile
Our translation that Kevin and i are going to read from is the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. So the NRSV UE is going to be the edition that we're gonna Kevin and are going to read from.

00:01:52.17
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:01:55.27
Nathan Pile
You are welcome to follow along with whatever you have on your shelf, or you can go to BibleGateway.com on a computer or um use the Bible Gateway app if you would like to look up that translation.

00:02:07.55
Nathan Pile
Um, our three questions this week, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text and toward what, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:02:18.21
Nathan Pile
We keep two of them, uh, the same so that Kevin doesn't forget how to do this process. And then we add a third question. Um, how do you know when, uh, a time of transition is complete?

00:02:31.90
Nathan Pile
Cool. Wow. Um, Yeah, I don't know, Kevin. That'll be that'll be good one to chew on.

00:02:39.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, ah you might recognize that it's probably related to the ah verses we'll be reading. So. Yeah.

00:02:45.48
Nathan Pile
It is absolutely that.

00:02:47.66
Kevin Shock
and

00:02:47.89
Nathan Pile
I can I can sense that. I'm I'm just not positive. Well, we'll get into it.

00:02:53.04
Kevin Shock
We'll get to it. Yeah. ah Here's some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and college and seminary educated.

00:03:03.23
Nathan Pile
Firmly.

00:03:06.58
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:03:19.27
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and with one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience and perspective as you read Scripture.

00:03:34.16
Kevin Shock
As Nathan said, we're looking at Joshua chapter 5, verses 9 through 12. The Lord said to Joshua, Today I have rolled away from you the disgrace of Egypt, and so that place is called Gilgal to this day.

00:03:48.54
Kevin Shock
While the Israelites were camped in Gilgal, they kept to the Passover in the evening on the 14th day of the month in the plains of Jericho. On the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and roasted grain.

00:04:05.04
Kevin Shock
The manna ceased on the day that they ate the produce of the land, and the Israelites no longer had manna. They ate the crops of the land of Canaan that year. If you are meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and ask one another the questions on your own.

00:04:24.80
Kevin Shock
Nathan, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

00:04:29.79
Nathan Pile
um Well, there's a couple, but the one I will pick to talk about um is

00:04:41.85
Nathan Pile
um that idea of Passover. So again, as a Lutheran Christian, um I hear about Passover in in the New Testament.

00:04:52.94
Nathan Pile
um I can successfully connect it to... ah the Exodus event and story. um But I can't say that i am fully immersed in the traditions and the depth of meaning that Passover has for our siblings in the Hebrew faith or in the Jewish faith.

00:05:16.97
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:05:19.27
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Hmm.

00:05:21.17
Nathan Pile
um The for me

00:05:23.13
Kevin Shock
you

00:05:24.80
Nathan Pile
the piece for me um of that is that I um

00:05:34.76
Nathan Pile
like, I think there's a deeper meaning part of this meal. There is a deeper meaning. I know from hearing the text, there's a deeper meaning happening. But I also wonder what part of the Passover am I just not aware of or with?

00:05:49.70
Nathan Pile
Um, fully, like I don't have a full understanding of them as a Lutheran Christian. And so that part of it, like they're celebrating the Passover.

00:06:00.88
Nathan Pile
We know that the Passover is connected to their history as God's people and their exit from Egypt um moving forward. um That's even alluded to at the beginning part of what you were reading there, Kevin.

00:06:15.07
Nathan Pile
um But I am... I am, maybe we, you and I can have a bit of a conversation because maybe you know a little bit more about the Passover than I do. um But to have a little bit of a conversation around this piece of Passover, because I think the whole passage really, um its foundation is in the piece of that Passover.

00:06:37.24
Nathan Pile
So we're having this big celebration. We have arrived in the promised land.

00:06:46.17
Nathan Pile
Um, after years and years and years and years in the wilderness. Um, but I think there's also parts of the Passover that, that, um, because I'm not a, um, a Jewish scholar or ah even ah a rabbi, um, that I probably, I probably don't have a full comprehension of. And so there's probably pieces of it that I'm even missing.

00:07:15.12
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:07:17.94
Nathan Pile
with my own understanding. But Passover is a big big um celebration in the Jewish faith, and I know that. And so there's still meaning that I can pull from this text. I just am curious if there's things that that I don't know about Passover or or traditions that are connected to Passover that are also are a part of that, that also adds meaning to this celebration here in Joshua.

00:07:44.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, I don't want to presume to know any more about Passover than you do, because I'm not i'm in the same boat that you are, that I'm not um I have not celebrated Passover.

00:07:56.45
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:07:57.73
Kevin Shock
and but But one thing that I was thinking about that I did go and look up um when you started asking some of those questions is ah in in Exodus 12, where it's,

00:08:13.15
Kevin Shock
where Passover is instituted, um I knew that there were there was a command that this would be a an ongoing observance.

00:08:23.26
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:08:23.50
Kevin Shock
um and And so, yeah, in in Exodus 12, 14, it gives all of the, um like, oh this is God speaking to Moses and Aaron.

00:08:36.84
Kevin Shock
And, yeah, talking about the, you know, this is, this is the, month this month is the beginning of months, but then going through kind of all of the logistical stuff about it, um, about the Passover observance, uh, which of course is not the way that Passover is, this was Passover in Egypt.

00:08:55.23
Kevin Shock
So this is not the way that it's, it's observed after they leave Egypt or, or and certainly not into this modern era.

00:08:56.39
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:09:04.23
Kevin Shock
Um, But there the logistics, but then and in verse 14, so Exodus 12, 14, this day shall be a day of remembrance for you. You shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord.

00:09:15.85
Kevin Shock
Throughout your generations, you shall observe it as a perpetual ordinance. That was the perpetual ordinance is the phrase that kind of went off in my head because I knew that there was there was particular wording, and this is NRSV.

00:09:23.08
Nathan Pile
Hmmm.

00:09:32.13
Kevin Shock
u e um and knew there was particular warning wording to say this is going to be an ongoing thing. um But then a little farther down, it gets a little more into it. um You shall observe this. This is beginning of verse 24. You shall observe this as a perpetual ordinance for you and your children.

00:09:52.43
Kevin Shock
When you come to the land that the Lord will give you, which is exactly where we are in Joshua right now, as he has promised, you shall keep this observance. And when your children ask you, what does this observance mean to you?

00:10:06.75
Kevin Shock
You shall say it is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord for he passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when he struck down the Egyptians, but spared our houses. And then the people bowed down and worshiped.

00:10:21.04
Kevin Shock
So anyway, um but but there's there's some additions in that last part about...

00:10:21.09
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:10:25.87
Kevin Shock
um There's a ah for you and your children. So it's a generational thing, an intergenerational observance. But also um there's the assumption ah that that the children will ask, what what is this?

00:10:45.03
Kevin Shock
What is this about? Why do we observe this?

00:10:48.72
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:10:48.82
Kevin Shock
and And that I know is an important part. I mean, i again, i just know that but telling the story is an important part of the Passover celebration.

00:10:59.46
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Sure. Sure. Well, and that idea of passing on to the next generation. So there's that annually, we're going to sit at a table.

00:11:04.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. Yep.

00:11:08.00
Nathan Pile
We're celebrate this meal. You're going to hear the story.

00:11:10.15
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Right.

00:11:12.52
Nathan Pile
You know, there's not a, you know, there's not a lot of our tradition. Well, there's communion, but that's not usually a ah meal that we sit down at the table with our family and celebrate.

00:11:26.89
Kevin Shock
no

00:11:29.98
Nathan Pile
by hearing the story. Like I think about Christmas and Easter, we hear the story of God and as it is played out in relationship to us as as human beings. But um there's a very intimate part of this gathering that happens in that family or um or whomever you might consider to be family.

00:11:53.57
Nathan Pile
gathered around that table and we hear that that ongoing story of god's connection to us and it gets passed from one generation to the next generation for the next generation um so there's an intimacy there's an attention attentionality there's a passing on a faith that's happened here so there's a a bit of a right rites of passage that that um play out here um

00:12:01.90
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:12:16.93
Nathan Pile
in this. So all of that is, you know, though that's part of that tradition that I'm talking about that like, as you talked, I thought, well, yeah, that would, that would be a part of the, you know, that there that there's, there's pieces of, of the tradition that make, make Passover richer for the the believer, you know?

00:12:38.36
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:12:39.62
Nathan Pile
And so here, here we are in the promised

00:12:39.72
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:12:45.84
Nathan Pile
eating the Passover. um

00:12:48.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:52.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:52.86
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:12:53.00
Kevin Shock
I'm, I'm just looking up some other stuff on the internet, um, because I knew that there was a name for the story or the, or the book that, um,

00:13:05.08
Kevin Shock
that lays out the pass you know the Passover ritual and it's called, it's the Haggadah or the, yeah, I think, I think that's all you say it. um But the Hebrew meaning of that word is, or the English meaning of that word is telling.

00:13:20.54
Kevin Shock
It's, it's literally the telling.

00:13:20.74
Nathan Pile
Hmm. The telling.

00:13:23.31
Kevin Shock
ah And, and I think that that's a part of, I think we've talked about this on the podcast in a previous season, but that's the, that's part of the Hebrew, the Hebrew Jewish tradition.

00:13:35.89
Kevin Shock
that is vitally important from my understanding is that there's a, there's a constant retelling of the things that have happened in the past. And the other, the other place I always think about it is whenever, and I'm not going to get the reference exactly right. But when, um, when, when the command is given about the offerings that you bring to the, the priest, and I think it's maybe as in Deuteronomy,

00:14:03.97
Kevin Shock
um They're part of the command is that you don't just bring your offerings, but then you tell the story about Abraham. ah My, my ancestor was a wandering Aramean.

00:14:19.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:14:19.94
Kevin Shock
And I mean, that's how the story starts. So it's ah it's almost it's like a confession of faith in some ways, but it's also a retelling of the story. Like, this this is I'm giving this offering because God has given us a land.

00:14:35.82
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:14:36.55
Kevin Shock
and And this is the story of, you know, this we were not always a people with a land. We were once wandering people, and then we were enslaved people, and now we are a people with a land.

00:14:47.99
Nathan Pile
Now we are free people.

00:14:48.39
Kevin Shock
um ah Yeah, right, right. with our With our own land. Yeah, yeah.

00:14:52.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:14:53.48
Kevin Shock
um And ah so, yeah, the the telling, the Haggadah, is an important part of of the Jewish faith.

00:15:03.19
Nathan Pile
No.

00:15:03.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:15:06.62
Nathan Pile
How about you? What word or phrase stuck out to you, image?

00:15:08.33
Kevin Shock
ah the The word that stuck out for me is manna.

00:15:13.79
Nathan Pile
Oh.

00:15:15.32
Kevin Shock
and And I think, you know, I mean, of course, this is this is when the manna ceases. um But I'm reminded of, we talked not too long ago, um or maybe it was a long time ago, and I just can't remember because I'm not good with time.

00:15:29.92
Kevin Shock
um that I don't know. and We talked about it at some point.

00:15:33.71
Nathan Pile
It's slipping, folks. It's slip is already down, very fast downhill.

00:15:34.90
Kevin Shock
it's No, now what I should what I should have said is we talked about it at one point, and it sticks in my head.

00:15:38.56
Nathan Pile
What is it?

00:15:40.78
Kevin Shock
That's what I should have said. That doesn't necessarily mean we talked about it recently, but, um, the, the meaning, the English meaning of manna, which is, what is it? That's, that's what the Hebrew word manna means.

00:15:53.67
Kevin Shock
What is it?

00:15:53.90
Nathan Pile
means what is it

00:15:54.77
Kevin Shock
And, um, and it just, it strikes me in this text because the manna ceases. And so for me, that says that the time of what is it has ceased.

00:16:08.38
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:16:08.60
Kevin Shock
Um, they were all the, all the time that the, um,

00:16:10.95
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:16:13.16
Kevin Shock
that the, that the, the people in the midst of Exodus were wandering or traveling toward the land before they became established in the land, they were living in a state of what is it.

00:16:27.12
Kevin Shock
And now that as our third question alludes to now that that time of transition is over. Yeah. And, and now it's it in my mind, and I guess I'm,

00:16:38.72
Kevin Shock
reading into this, I'm interpreting it. But um in my mind, they're moving from what is it to this is it. but This, this is what we've been waiting for. This is what's, this is what has been promised to us. This is what we've been waiting for. This is what we've been traveling toward.

00:16:53.60
Kevin Shock
And now we're here. Yeah, so so mana.

00:16:56.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah, that's an interesting way of of of putting it when you said about that idea of of it's this is the end of what is it.

00:17:05.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:05.66
Nathan Pile
Not that we don't have questions about going forward in our relationship with God, but this part of the journey of what is it, this time of manna is over.

00:17:11.05
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:17:17.08
Nathan Pile
god God providing daily sustenance.

00:17:21.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:22.78
Nathan Pile
in the way of food, not in the way of other ways. But

00:17:29.33
Nathan Pile
that time of of questioning and is there going to be enough, that time has come to an end.

00:17:35.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, and yeah, and and God is still providing daily sustenance, but in a, in a more permanent and sustainable way. Yeah.

00:17:43.76
Nathan Pile
No, no.

00:17:45.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:17:46.41
Nathan Pile
In a defined way, it's no longer, we're no longer asking what is this?

00:17:49.24
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:17:51.76
Nathan Pile
It's, we know what it is now, right?

00:17:52.33
Kevin Shock
Right. We know what it is now. Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:56.07
Nathan Pile
We're back to maybe be familiar crops or patterns of living. Well, for some people that would never be the case because they've always been journeying.

00:18:09.33
Nathan Pile
But for some, there might be a reminder of the 40 years before how they might've lived.

00:18:20.00
Kevin Shock
Sure, yeah.

00:18:24.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so anyway, yeah let's let's look at it a second time.

00:18:24.63
Nathan Pile
All right, you want to do this again? Yeah, good.

00:18:32.19
Nathan Pile
The Lord said to Joshua, Today I have rolled away from you the disgrace of Egypt. And so that place is called Gilgal to this day.

00:18:46.43
Nathan Pile
While the Israelites were camped in Gilgal, they kept the Passover in the evening on the 14th day of the month in the plains of Jericho. On the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and roasted grain.

00:19:07.24
Nathan Pile
The manna ceased on the day they ate the produce of the land, and the Israelites no longer had manna. They ate the crops of the land of Canaan that year.

00:19:20.12
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:19:26.40
Kevin Shock
I get a strong sense of this text that the um the Israelites have retained a sense of um faithful faithful observance in the midst of a, well, was probably a pretty busy time.

00:19:49.29
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:19:49.58
Kevin Shock
um there were there was There was probably a lot of settling happening, a lot of, like, you know, I mean, if they were eating the produce of the land, there had to have been harvest that was happening. um They were becoming established. You think, I mean, think of in in a very simple sense, anytime, anytime you move from one house to another and all the packing and then moving and then unpacking and getting yourself sorted. And especially if it's in a new area, figuring out, you know, where the,

00:20:20.53
Kevin Shock
where the grocery stores are and and and the restaurants and the other things that you need for daily life. um It can be, ah and especially if you're also being established in a new job or, you know, kids are going to a new school or something like that.

00:20:35.81
Kevin Shock
Like it's it's a lot to it's a lot to handle.

00:20:37.93
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Hmm.

00:20:39.32
Kevin Shock
um ah But in the midst of all of the busy stuff that's going on, ah they do not forget to observe the thing that they have been commanded to observe.

00:20:51.77
Kevin Shock
And so think what I feel called to is that in in a time of transition, um it's it it has been in the past and should continue to be for me in the into the future, an important and meaningful thing for me to continue my faith practices.

00:21:16.44
Kevin Shock
and And much in the way that the Israelites are doing here in Gilgal, um to

00:21:28.39
Kevin Shock
remember ah all that the Lord has done in in this time of transition and and and all throughout my life and the generations that came before me as well.

00:21:45.51
Kevin Shock
yeah I Yeah. I guess the other thing is I kind of talk this out a little bit is looking at right at that verse nine or the first verse we read verse nine. ah The Lord says, today I have rolled away from you the disgrace of Egypt.

00:21:59.21
Kevin Shock
um that a I'm not saying that it it could have easily been. But I think in a scenario like that, there are people who could be convinced that, oh, we don't need God anymore. because Because the thing that God was doing for us is now finished.

00:22:21.05
Kevin Shock
And so, you know, we no longer carry with us Egypt's disgrace. And ah and we are we're in a new land with crops that are growing and are able to carry on life as we, as our ancestors did before us.

00:22:38.55
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, but that's not, uh, that's certainly not the case that they no longer need the Lord. Uh, they will continue to need the Lord in a variety of ways and situations.

00:22:53.23
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah. Yeah.

00:22:54.86
Nathan Pile
Do you think that that, you know, again, I I appreciate your, that that part of the reflection

00:22:55.29
Kevin Shock
um

00:23:02.40
Nathan Pile
in

00:23:05.69
Nathan Pile
because of their humanness, we at times can to can do just that. We can say, well, God's gotten us here, so now it's up to us.

00:23:18.93
Nathan Pile
And yet a part of their tradition, and I think a part of our tradition, something that that continues through um the Jewish faith tradition into the Christian faith tradition, is that God is constantly at work, constantly. And and a part of their remembering the Passover is to remind them of their need of God.

00:23:44.80
Nathan Pile
right um And yet, It absolutely seems completely human to, after we've eaten from the land of Canaan, to feel like, all right, now it's just us.

00:23:59.88
Kevin Shock
Right, right, right.

00:24:01.20
Nathan Pile
You know, um as just as we would in in our own Christian faiths of to say, okay, we're free Americans. We can do whatever we want. um You know, god's God's made America free.

00:24:16.71
Nathan Pile
I have independence. um So there's that, like to me, that's there's like there's a tension that absolutely can be seen and knowing who we who we are as human beings, that that selfish inward desire that we have, that sin that keeps popping up in our lives and and recognizing that we get pulled, like that we we pull ourselves away from this relationship of God.

00:24:48.16
Nathan Pile
However, the tradition keeps reminding us over and over again, we need God. they're still

00:24:55.75
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:24:56.23
Nathan Pile
there's still so There's still other things. The thing that we're a slave to now isn't Egypt. It's ourselves. um Now, that's not all said in this passage.

00:25:05.02
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:25:06.45
Nathan Pile
I get that.

00:25:06.82
Kevin Shock
No, right, right.

00:25:07.29
Nathan Pile
but but But that that piece, you know the reason for the retelling over and over again, is to remind us of our need for this connection to God.

00:25:22.22
Nathan Pile
And that that doesn't that happens both in the in the first Testament or in the first command from God to God's people, but it's also true for us in the second command, the New Testament.

00:25:32.67
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:25:34.37
Nathan Pile
And so being able to see that and and have you reflect upon that a little bit here, um I think it's just kind of an interesting piece to me. the um We're in the process right now camp thinking about, um intentionally thinking about faith formation.

00:25:50.00
Nathan Pile
How do we keep passing on faith to the next tradition?

00:25:52.39
Kevin Shock
you

00:25:53.31
Nathan Pile
um And a part of this conversation is, well, we just have to get people to sit down and have a meal and and keep telling each other that it's important to remember the stories.

00:26:03.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

00:26:06.33
Nathan Pile
You know, it's it's it's that simple and it's that hard.

00:26:07.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. To continue. Right. to To continue telling the stories.

00:26:12.31
Nathan Pile
Yeah, especially around the fit family dinner table.

00:26:13.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:26:14.99
Nathan Pile
Especially around the family dinner table.

00:26:15.75
Kevin Shock
Yes. Yes.

00:26:17.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:26:19.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. What about you, Nathan? Toward, what are you being called in this text?

00:26:23.15
Nathan Pile
um I was the the first part of this um that we have a God who um who's worried about our disgrace even 40 years even 40 years after it's

00:26:37.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:26:42.24
Nathan Pile
not really a part of our identity anymore.

00:26:46.59
Nathan Pile
But god is is God made a promise and God continues to be faithful to that promise. And in that faithfulness, yes, defines us no longer as slave, but as free, but is worried about removing that disgrace.

00:27:06.30
Nathan Pile
um

00:27:06.52
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:27:07.24
Nathan Pile
You know, that's an intimate, loving, God who worries about something that is 40 years in the past.

00:27:20.41
Nathan Pile
And so recognizing that we, again, as human beings, maybe we a part of our of our own safety and structure built is built on you know how we live life, how we do that. Can we can we do it on our own?

00:27:43.19
Nathan Pile
you know There are certain things of their tradition that they couldn't possibly do as they are wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years.

00:27:53.43
Kevin Shock
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

00:27:54.67
Nathan Pile
you know there There wouldn't have been a temple.

00:27:56.88
Kevin Shock
I

00:27:58.14
Nathan Pile
like I, I'll be honest, I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to a question ah around circumcision. Could they circumcise while they were traveling?

00:28:06.50
Kevin Shock
don't, I don't know.

00:28:07.49
Nathan Pile
I don't know that you're like, I don't know.

00:28:08.59
Kevin Shock
I don't know.

00:28:08.88
Nathan Pile
So does that, does that tradition get to be reintroduced now that they're in Canaan? um

00:28:14.33
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:28:15.01
Nathan Pile
Do they, um you know, and what other traditions got put aside because they were traveling um or that because they had to travel, you know?

00:28:24.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:28:25.25
Nathan Pile
So,

00:28:25.87
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:28:26.74
Nathan Pile
so

00:28:26.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's, that's a, that's a good question. That's a question that I would be, I'm, I'm, I'm a little interested to hear if someone listening to this knows the answer to that, I would, what the, um, what any of the, uh, the rabbinical writings or anything say about that. I would, I would really be interested in hearing about that.

00:28:46.35
Kevin Shock
Um, but there's a part of me that tends to think that, um, tends to wonder why wouldn't it continue? Because in in that time, it it only happened with the sterility that they were able to accomplish anyway.

00:29:04.33
Nathan Pile
Sure, but they didn't know that they they were bad at it.

00:29:05.07
Kevin Shock
ah

00:29:08.23
Kevin Shock
No, no, right, right, right, right.

00:29:08.86
Nathan Pile
They thought they were good at it.

00:29:10.04
Kevin Shock
What what what I mean what I mean is that like circumcisions took place in the desert in open air areas anyway.

00:29:10.22
Nathan Pile
They thought they were good at it.

00:29:16.58
Nathan Pile
No, sure, sure. Well, in the tent, or that would have happened in the temple, right? that That would have been the only place where circumcision would have happened.

00:29:24.38
Kevin Shock
Oh, what well, well, this was all pre-Temple stuff, though, wasn't it?

00:29:28.13
Nathan Pile
Well, you're right, true.

00:29:29.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I'm actually, well, now I'm even questioning when when did, well, I guess circumcision. ah

00:29:36.42
Nathan Pile
It would have been allowed to do it in Egypt, I would imagine.

00:29:39.22
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah, and and I mean, it began with Abraham's family, didn't it?

00:29:39.41
Nathan Pile
But I don't know that either.

00:29:43.62
Kevin Shock
It wasn't. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't something that was instituted much later. No, but, but honestly, it's a good question. I mean that, yeah, they're, if they, the other question I have is, um you know, that part of X.

00:29:56.28
Nathan Pile
I do, I do recognize, hold on, Kevin, I do recognize we've talked about circumcision and maybe not everybody's aware of this. So circumcision happened to the male and it was a, um, a part of, um, uh, as a sign of the covenant and was a part of, um,

00:30:03.94
Kevin Shock
Oh.

00:30:11.79
Kevin Shock
It was a sign of the covenant.

00:30:18.64
Nathan Pile
I guess tradition, I can say it was a part of the tradition to to have males circumcised to show this relationship with God. um But it yeah, and and if you're really interested in circumcision, you can look it up. ah We don't need to talk about it on a podcast.

00:30:38.18
Nathan Pile
um ah

00:30:39.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:30:40.80
Nathan Pile
But it was a way of showing that connection to the covenant that was created between Abraham and God. So, and so we have some questions around this only because it was a way of living into the tradition together with God or living into the relationship with God.

00:30:49.29
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:31:00.35
Nathan Pile
But again, this is something like I ask about it, but I don't even know if they were allowed to do when they were slave. Like, I don't know that.

00:31:07.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

00:31:08.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So there's now, now we've given you lots of things to worry about that you probably don't really need to worry about, but ah it is a part of, of thinking about how interrelated,

00:31:21.64
Nathan Pile
their faith tradition is just, it would just be like us as Christians. We have certain things that we do that help connect us to the holy, that help connect us to God, baptism, communion, um um gathering together in ah and a fellowship group.

00:31:29.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:36.84
Nathan Pile
um All are about about ah that, that bringing God in that space and place together. um But there would definitely be things that that they may not have been allowed to do when they were in Egypt.

00:31:51.90
Nathan Pile
there might've been things that they just couldn't physically do because they were constantly moving around in tents.

00:31:53.29
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:31:59.08
Nathan Pile
Um, like circumcision. I don't know if there's other things again, this is my, this is my lack of full comprehension of all of the, all of the pieces and tradition of the Jewish faith.

00:32:14.01
Nathan Pile
Um, uh,

00:32:14.12
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

00:32:17.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I um, am also reminded We talked, I think, last episode about being church nerds and and being getting wrapped up in words and phrases and things like that.

00:32:30.08
Kevin Shock
But um if we remember ah that the... um Well, we we talked about this recently, that um Abraham ah Abraham's covenant.

00:32:41.71
Nathan Pile
And Sarah? Mm-hmm.

00:32:43.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the the covenant where where the the um the smoking brazier passes between the animals,

00:32:43.94
Nathan Pile
A couple weeks ago. Yeah. Halves of meat. Halves of meat.

00:32:51.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the haves of meat.

00:32:51.71
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:32:52.90
Kevin Shock
Well, and and one thing I don't think we talked about in that episode was um that the the Hebrew word there is not make the covenant, it's cut the covenant.

00:33:03.68
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:33:04.16
Kevin Shock
the the The verb is to cut when you're talking about covenantal stuff. So again, we come around to circumcision that there's a I don't know if there's a reason that that, but here again, there's a sign of the covenant is cut and, and that's, that's the mark of the covenant, but okay.

00:33:21.55
Nathan Pile
That's a mark of the covenant.

00:33:22.36
Kevin Shock
Anyway, that's all we need to talk about that surgical act at this point.

00:33:23.48
Nathan Pile
Oh.

00:33:27.61
Kevin Shock
um The other, the other, the other question that this raised for me though, is um whether, you know, they were in the, they were in the desert. The Israelites were wandering in the desert for 40 years.

00:33:39.63
Kevin Shock
Um, But back in Exodus 12, you can almost interpret what is said there as, uh, this, the celebration of the Passover won't happen until you are established again in a new land.

00:33:55.41
Kevin Shock
And, and I'm pretty sure sort of like the Passover, even though the Passover is celebrated every year now on a specific date and time that, um, that the Passover would not have been celebrated while they were in the desert because all they had was the manna and quails.

00:34:12.02
Kevin Shock
They didn't have the, they didn't have the, the foods required necessarily. um

00:34:18.53
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:34:18.81
Kevin Shock
So I yeah, I, I don't know if that was the case for sure, but I think it's a possibility. And and so again, here, just like you were saying, this is, they're able to return to a, um to a ritual that is, that holds meaning for them.

00:34:27.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:34:34.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Well, and it makes me want to do a little bit of digging into the Passover here and what were the things during this time in the wilderness and even during enslavement that they were maybe not able to to do until again they are free.

00:34:35.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah

00:34:44.16
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:34:49.60
Nathan Pile
So there's, you know, because we're going from we're going from being a wandering nation to an enslaved nation to being a free nation.

00:35:02.57
Nathan Pile
Like, are there are there pieces in the and the Jewish faith history and tradition that also delineate those times that makes this celebration as free as the free nation um outside of Jericho that makes this even a richer story?

00:35:26.38
Nathan Pile
Like, that's the part I, I'm curious about, yeah.

00:35:33.85
Nathan Pile
right. Anything else for you?

00:35:34.32
Kevin Shock
ah I don't I don't think so. Let's look at it a third time. The Lord said to Joshua, today I have rolled away from you the disgrace of Egypt. And so that place is called Gilgal to this day.

00:35:48.44
Kevin Shock
While the Israelites were camped in Gilgal, they kept the Passover in the evening on the 14th day of the month in the plains of Jericho. On the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and roasted grain.

00:36:05.05
Kevin Shock
The manna ceased on the the the day they ate the produce of the land, and the Israelites no longer had manna. They ate the crops of the land of Canaan that year. Um, Nathan, before I ask you a question, one thing I realized we didn't address yet is, uh, is the second half of verse nine. And so that place is called Gilgal to this day.

00:36:29.06
Kevin Shock
Um, there's a note there, ah that in Hebrew Gilgal is related to the verb rolled R O L L E D. Uh, just like it says in the beginning of verse nine today, I've rolled away from you the disgrace of Egypt.

00:36:44.74
Kevin Shock
Um, so I think,

00:36:45.06
Nathan Pile
ah

00:36:46.24
Kevin Shock
that That's something that you and I reading this could see, but we didn't make that clear to people who were who might just be listening in.

00:36:53.72
Nathan Pile
Right, and that's that part of the disgrace being removed, right?

00:36:53.86
Kevin Shock
So, Nathan.

00:36:56.72
Nathan Pile
That's that ah piece of that.

00:36:56.91
Kevin Shock
Yes. yeah I Yeah, I think that's a reference to that very thing.

00:36:59.99
Nathan Pile
What's the word?

00:37:00.15
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:37:00.43
Nathan Pile
do you know what the word is? it like gelato or something like that?

00:37:05.22
Kevin Shock
What word? What are you talking about?

00:37:06.74
Nathan Pile
The word, that what is the actual Hebrew word that connects to Gilgal?

00:37:09.85
Kevin Shock
oh Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it right, because it says it's related to that verb. But yeah, I don't I don't know what it...

00:37:15.89
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah. I just wondered what, I just wondered what the verb in Hebrew was gelato or that's probably Italian.

00:37:20.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I don't know that for sure. I don't think it's gelato, Nathan.

00:37:24.37
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:24.94
Kevin Shock
Anyway...

00:37:24.93
Nathan Pile
it's probably not. It's ice cream and I need to leave.

00:37:29.15
Kevin Shock
anyway

00:37:29.99
Nathan Pile
But it's gotta be something like that. G A L O T Yeah.

00:37:33.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's probably, it's a, right. It's a, it's a GL GL world word.

00:37:37.13
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:37.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:37:37.67
Nathan Pile
yeah It's gotta be a lot.

00:37:38.19
Kevin Shock
Somehow. Yeah.

00:37:39.44
Nathan Pile
Good.

00:37:39.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:37:40.10
Nathan Pile
Got Gail, Gail Ota or something like that.

00:37:41.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I don't want to make a I don't want to make a guess at it, but, um, Nathan, how do you know when a time of transition is complete?

00:37:46.50
Nathan Pile
no

00:37:51.81
Nathan Pile
I wish when I read your question, my, question my thing was, I wish I had a big, a big party um every time so that I knew it was done.

00:37:59.53
Kevin Shock
ah hope To observe to yeah.

00:38:01.10
Nathan Pile
Yeah. That it was done. Like this transition has happened. Let's have a party. um

00:38:05.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:38:06.41
Nathan Pile
Cause I think that's a great way to do it.

00:38:08.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:38:09.14
Nathan Pile
We probably don't do it enough as, as Lutheran Christians.

00:38:09.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Uh huh. No, we probably don't.

00:38:14.65
Nathan Pile
um You know, we, we have some of them. So like a wedding, there's sometimes a celebration.

00:38:22.28
Kevin Shock
Uh huh.

00:38:22.82
Nathan Pile
Um, maybe there's a celebration of a baptism, but like, usually it's just the family. So they have like a family dinner or something after church, but like, boy, why wouldn't we, um, why wouldn't we all have a big celebration?

00:38:30.67
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:38:37.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:38:37.31
Nathan Pile
Like at the church, like let's have a big fellowship meal there.

00:38:37.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:38:40.84
Nathan Pile
There's a reason to, we're having a baptism. Um, You know, why wouldn't we have the things that are about transition? One of the things that when I was in, um when I was a program director and then an early in my time in seminary and and even as a pastor, I looked at, there's a,

00:39:05.89
Nathan Pile
for lack of a better word, I'm going use the word curriculum, but there was a thing called milestones. And so there were these little milestones that for each age of a child that you celebrated together as a life of the, yeah that was a part of the, of youth ministry or family ministries in congregations for a while in the end of the nineties, early two thousands.

00:39:17.88
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:39:30.90
Nathan Pile
And there's probably some still congregations. that celebrate those milestones, but there are things that like are happening, like, um, things that maybe we wouldn't necessarily do in the church, but we've adopted as a part of our culture that are significant. So like when somebody turns 16, you can start to drive. Right. But do we, in our church have something that celebrates that, um, that transition from being, you know, that yeah there's a little bit more freedom. There's a little bit more independence.

00:39:59.94
Nathan Pile
Um, there's a little bit more responsibility because you can drive, but, is there something that we would celebrate as a part of that transition? Um, you know, other transitions that we have to live in, in the churches, yeah obviously the death of a loved one of a spouse or of a family member, there's a transition there, but again, that's one of those transitions that we're pretty quiet about.

00:40:15.55
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:40:21.31
Nathan Pile
Um, but are there ways that we might, um, might come together and, and, and, um,

00:40:33.25
Nathan Pile
celebrate in that time of transition. You know, again, I think of the family meal that would be held after a funeral. that's one That's one way that we that the sharing of stories helps to bring us connection and joy of celebrating the person that has that has died.

00:40:53.44
Nathan Pile
But like we have all of these different kinds of pieces of transition, but again, it's not something that I think we do very well because we've become so busy. um in our world and so celebrating these transitions and and and when i say celebrate it's not that we have party hats in a ah kazoo and we make noise like some of the celebrating is is in the in the the place of death there's still sadness but there's still that celebration of life that happens and so how do we how do we celebrate that life how do we come together um and live in community more fully because there's something again here here are these

00:41:24.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:41:37.24
Nathan Pile
The people of God have made a transition into something bigger and better. and And so I guess there's a part for me of how do we as the people of God do a better job of of seeing, naming, claiming these different transitions um

00:42:02.31
Nathan Pile
and to celebrate them together. um

00:42:04.79
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:42:05.54
Nathan Pile
you know, uh, in, in, in whatever form

00:42:13.58
Nathan Pile
feels authentic and real for us as a community. So it doesn't mean that there always has to be a meal. I get that, but there, but, but maybe there's something, um, You know, i was talking to some camp people um here the last couple of weeks. And one of the pieces I've been wrestling with here for Sequanota is like a lot of our kids campers now are not, they don't attend a church, at least not regularly.

00:42:38.95
Kevin Shock
yeah.

00:42:40.53
Nathan Pile
And so like something that the church always used to do was that when you got to a certain age, you got your own Bible. Well, what if our kids don't have that? Is it the camp's role? So this is something we're wrestling with. We haven't made any decisions about it. But, you know, is it the camp's role then to become the place that gives the Bible?

00:43:01.11
Nathan Pile
we've We've not done that.

00:43:02.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:43:02.82
Nathan Pile
um But maybe maybe it is a part of our tradition that the first year you come to camp, you get a Bible. um That would be us celebrating a transition.

00:43:16.05
Nathan Pile
With them in some, you know, without it being a big, you know, we're going to throw a big party. It just would be like the last day. If this is your first time at camp, you get a Bible. Or maybe it's the first night when you come to camp. So you have it all week.

00:43:29.95
Nathan Pile
um You can use it during Bible study, you know, whatever it would be.

00:43:30.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:32.75
Nathan Pile
We'd have to think it through. and But like there's a part of a transition that's occurring that we can we can add meaning to that. And so are there ways that we can seek out those moments of meaning and be intentional about it. I guess maybe that's the word I really want to use.

00:43:53.41
Nathan Pile
Intentional. That we're intentional about those times. Because then i cause I think that helps us to know that the transition is significant.

00:44:06.14
Nathan Pile
Like if we're intentional about saying this is happening, it helps us to... It helps us to pause in our busyness and and to maybe recognize that this is a significant transition in our own life, as as would be happening in in our story.

00:44:28.95
Nathan Pile
They've come out of the wilderness. They have come into the land. They are now free. They celebrate the Passover, remembering whose they are and who has led them to this place.

00:44:41.18
Nathan Pile
And the next day, they eat the food of the land.

00:44:46.78
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:44:47.93
Nathan Pile
You know, so there's, there's there's it's a two-day transition, right? It's a two-day, the manna stops, and now we eat the food of this of this new place.

00:44:57.85
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:45:00.39
Nathan Pile
Survival is now different.

00:45:03.36
Nathan Pile
So, I don't know, that would be that would be my um my long answer to your simple question.

00:45:04.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:45:10.40
Kevin Shock
Well, I don't know that it was a simple question necessarily, but yeah, I... I um I think that ah just some things I was thinking about as you were talking, one, I mean, yeah, we do we do observe transition times with ritual of some kind.

00:45:31.01
Kevin Shock
I mean, the other ones that I thought about were like um like a housewarming party um and and graduation.

00:45:35.94
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:45:38.92
Kevin Shock
I think graduation is a big one too.

00:45:40.72
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:45:41.39
Kevin Shock
um

00:45:41.48
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:45:42.16
Kevin Shock
but But the difference between all the stuff that we have been talking about and what's going on with the Israelites here is that they have a, this is a this is a national communal ah observance of something that was necessary.

00:45:55.66
Nathan Pile
Celebration. Yeah.

00:46:00.87
Kevin Shock
And we have like we have days of remembrance built into like our calendar, but it's not something that, well, I mean, heck, for some of them, we can't even agree to, like,

00:46:12.23
Kevin Shock
um closed businesses on those days.

00:46:15.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:46:16.89
Kevin Shock
um And so it doesn't feel like there's a real communal sense of, ah i think I think in the United States, people people observe communal events in individual ways.

00:46:33.70
Kevin Shock
and And maybe it's because we I think the positive spin on it is because we recognize that people, ah people are affected by different things in different ways.

00:46:45.92
Kevin Shock
Um, but, um, but for the Israelites, this was, this was a part of that. Yeah. Um, this was, this was a part of their, of their national identity. And you you used the word identity earlier in this episode. And that also got me thinking that this is like,

00:47:07.93
Kevin Shock
that that the disgrace of Egypt is removed from them means that they are no longer directly affected by what happened in Egypt because they've transitioned into a new place and a new reality.

00:47:23.63
Kevin Shock
um And yet ah they are they have been given commands to say, don't ever let this be become don't ever forget that this is a part of your identity.

00:47:33.39
Nathan Pile
Who we are. Sure. Sure.

00:47:34.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah, of who we are. um

00:47:36.23
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:47:36.89
Kevin Shock
You know, the the reading that we point to in the in the Gospels that point to this is whenever um um Jesus is talking about being enslaved to sin and the ah teachers, whichever group it is, I can't remember off the top of my head, the the teachers of the law say to him, we're descendants of Abraham. We've never been slaves to anybody.

00:48:03.79
Kevin Shock
ah it has It is clear that they have forgotten or they're ignoring a it

00:48:12.58
Nathan Pile
huge part of their story.

00:48:12.84
Kevin Shock
a, yeah more more than just a huge part of their story, like ah like ah an identity building part of their story.

00:48:20.02
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:48:20.84
Kevin Shock
Like you you are descendants of Abraham. and and And because you are, you know that you have been enslaved.

00:48:31.16
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:48:31.39
Kevin Shock
And God has delivered.

00:48:32.02
Nathan Pile
Or you should.

00:48:33.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. God has delivered you. Yeah. Right. How, I mean, how would you, how could you, right.

00:48:39.27
Nathan Pile
How would you get through the Passover every year?

00:48:41.92
Kevin Shock
That's exactly what I was going to say. How could you celebrate? How could you observe the Passover every year and come up with a statement? We've never been slaves to anybody. I don't understand how that's the case, but I think, I think it's, and you're the leaders, right?

00:48:51.07
Nathan Pile
and you're the And you're the leaders. And you're the leaders of the faith tradition.

00:48:54.93
Kevin Shock
You're the, you're the national religious leaders. Yeah. um I mean, obviously that was written in that particular way. for a reason. But um yeah, I I guess I just think that um

00:49:10.61
Kevin Shock
we have all these individual like transitional celebrations, but it what would what would it mean for us to have a ah national or or even even just the the communities in which we live to have some kind of transitional observance?

00:49:25.20
Kevin Shock
um I think it would give us deeper meaning. of our life together. But in any case, um, so my answer to the question, ah how do I, how do I know that a time of transition is complete?

00:49:43.96
Kevin Shock
I, I don't know. I don't know that I do know.

00:49:50.65
Kevin Shock
I um, and I think part of that is, um,

00:49:58.24
Kevin Shock
Part of that comes from my ah seminary formation and especially with my, my professor of liturgy, um, Gordon Lathrop, who loved to talk about loves to talk about, uh, the liminal spaces, which liminal is just a synonym for transitional.

00:50:22.23
Kevin Shock
Um, But the that um the liturgy, that worship speaks to all of the liminal places that we experience in our life um and and gives them grounding and meaning in in the the the holy one, in in the holy.

00:50:43.21
Kevin Shock
um and um And so I think that I've adopted this attitude that you would like, I I worded the original wording for this read for this question was, um, how, how do you know when one chapter of life is over?

00:51:03.26
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:04.69
Kevin Shock
And, and I think that, and I changed it because I felt like, I felt like chapter didn't really, it didn't embody what, what I wanted it to say, or didn't kind of capture what I was trying to get at.

00:51:06.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:51:17.11
Kevin Shock
Um, but I, but I think that the other thing is the chapter,

00:51:23.69
Kevin Shock
a chapter is exactly that, that, that one chapter ends and a new chapter begins. And so in some way they're all transitional, I guess, if you're, if you're moving from one season of life to another.

00:51:39.91
Kevin Shock
Now, some of them may be longer and some of them may be shorter. but in some way we're always in transition, especially if we're always growing or just,

00:51:53.11
Kevin Shock
changing. mean I mean, think people naturally change over time. Um, and maybe not in huge ways, but, but at least in small ways, the, the, you know, the, the concrete example I'm thinking of is, is my hip surgery and, and my experiences around that, you know, for, for months and months, I was pretty incapacitated in a lot of ways, or at least in severe pain, if I wasn't incapacitated.

00:52:19.03
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:52:22.16
Kevin Shock
And, um, and then, then I got the, ah got the surgery, the hip replacement and it and I, I was telling people, you know, Lisa, especially not long after the surgery. Like, I, I think I fooled myself into thinking that, um, I would have the surgery and then everything would be better again.

00:52:44.15
Kevin Shock
Um, but it wasn't immediately the case, uh, because there's,

00:52:47.80
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:52:49.22
Kevin Shock
that that transition was continuing. And so now, ah you know Nathan, you and I were talking before we started recording. Now I'm in a place where I am returning to a much, what would have been for me a pre-injury, somewhat normal level of activity.

00:53:06.25
Kevin Shock
Now, not entirely normal because I'm still

00:53:07.00
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:53:11.81
Kevin Shock
umm I'm still closer to like 6,000 steps a day instead of 10,000 steps a day. But um but I'm I'm walking dogs again.

00:53:18.37
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:53:20.02
Kevin Shock
I'm leading worship again. I'm doing things like that. But as I said to you, Nathan, the thing that I noticed now is that all of these muscles that I haven't been using in the right way for a year um are getting really sore.

00:53:33.72
Kevin Shock
they've they've ah They've weakened. and And so now I'm recognizing that this this is a different kind of transitional time. This is a time of building up my strength and my endurance again.

00:53:45.17
Kevin Shock
And so, um yeah. And um

00:53:51.53
Kevin Shock
ah maybe that's maybe I'm just in a place right now where the where the chapters are pretty are relatively short. And so it feels like there's a there's just constant transition happening. But I think in in some way for all of us, there's always constant transition happening.

00:54:08.23
Kevin Shock
ah you you know You think of family time, if if if people have children, um the the family operates in one way with a newborn differently than it does with a toddler, differently than it does with a school-aged child, and then they become teenagers.

00:54:09.48
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:54:23.02
Kevin Shock
And that it's every age is a little bit different. and changes the whole family dynamic. So that's, yeah. ah I yeah I don't I don't I don't know how to tell when it's complete, but I think there are probably transitions that have a much more solid sense of this is ending now and something new is beginning.

00:54:44.26
Kevin Shock
um But I think um I think I've gotten comfortable with some people's help over time at Being, being okay with, uh, I'm in con- my life is in constant flux.

00:54:58.37
Kevin Shock
Like and I'm just, I'm just perpetually transitioning from one, one state of being to another or yeah.

00:55:05.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:55:07.29
Kevin Shock
But as I said, um, in the answer to my second question, it it's vitally important that I maintain my faith practices then.

00:55:15.92
Nathan Pile
right

00:55:16.64
Kevin Shock
Because if I'm just in a transitional place all the time and I don't have any grounding i I'm gonna feel anxious, lost. Yeah, that faith faith practices, remembering the story, um those are all essentials for me ah in in transitional times, yeah.

00:55:38.15
Nathan Pile
Well, they become they become the the markers along the way. um

00:55:45.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure.

00:55:46.02
Nathan Pile
You know, like I think about a backpacking trail where there's little painted swaths on trees.

00:55:53.76
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:55:54.04
Nathan Pile
your faith tradition or your faith, ah your spiritual practice becomes yep, I'm still on the right path. Yep, I'm still on the right path.

00:56:02.27
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:56:03.48
Nathan Pile
Yep. You know, no matter how, whether I'm climbing up a mountain, going through a pine forest, crossing a stream, going through a desert, those things,

00:56:19.78
Nathan Pile
those reminders, those spiritual practices become the thing that helped landmark me.

00:56:28.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:56:30.64
Nathan Pile
In that, in that telling or retelling of the story over and over and over and over again. So yeah. I like that.

00:56:44.81
Nathan Pile
um And being able to do it together as community.

00:56:47.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, yeah.

00:56:48.53
Nathan Pile
you know, helps us to, you know, it's a, it's a ah great point that you made earlier in that we're, we live in a very individualistic society, but reminding ourselves that the way God intends us to live is, is it in community and in community with God.

00:57:07.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:57:11.55
Nathan Pile
So ways that we do that together. So, yeah.

00:57:14.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah, absolutely.

00:57:19.42
Nathan Pile
ah couple of additional texts for you to um dig in with if you have time this week. Psalm 32, be glad you righteous and rejoice in the Lord.

00:57:33.33
Nathan Pile
Second Corinthians chapter five, verse 16 to 21, the mystery and ministry of reconciliation. And you have um

00:57:44.50
Nathan Pile
what, what, what, ah reconciliation is and how it brings us back whole, even though we might be changed, but we it brings us back to whole. So that's that cycle of of naming our feelings and and and hearing the other and talking to each other about our differences and then finding a way forward together.

00:58:10.35
Nathan Pile
We see that lived out if you look in the long from the long view here of um God fulfilling God's promise of you are my chosen people. um But that struggle that occurs through the wandering, through the enslavement, until they are the people freed and restored um in Canaan.

00:58:34.38
Nathan Pile
And then Luke 15, verses 11b-32. This is the parable of the prodigal father and the repentant son.

00:58:46.28
Nathan Pile
Kevin, I like the way you write the that out because we often think of it as the prodigal son. But...

00:58:51.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah, i i i did I didn't write those.

00:58:51.67
Nathan Pile
Oh.

00:58:53.65
Kevin Shock
um those come Those come directly from our um from Augsburg Fortress, from our publishing house and their worship prep materials. I was surprised to notice that that that's now the description given for that reading.

00:59:00.93
Nathan Pile
Hmm, nice.

00:59:05.69
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I appreciate the change of that story because it is um that's a better the the faithfulness of the father is always present.

00:59:07.70
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah, I do too. Yep.

00:59:15.81
Nathan Pile
So

00:59:16.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think um prodigal is one of those words that we have no idea what it means of because we only hear it in that in that context.

00:59:21.15
Nathan Pile
ah it only gets used with his story.

00:59:24.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but prodigal means like um extravagant, lavish. And so the son can be described in that way because he spends all of his inheritance. um But then it's more, I think it's more fitting to focus that descriptor on the father who, when the son comes home, is lavishly forgiving of him and and holds a feast and throws a party and, and gives gives him all that he needs to be welcomed back into the fold. Yeah.

00:59:54.76
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:59:56.13
Nathan Pile
Well, Kevin, as always, I appreciate your reflections and our time together kind of digging into scripture. um Those of you listening, we hope that... It's been also a fruitful time for you.

01:00:09.41
Nathan Pile
If there are things from this conversation or some of the many questions that Kevin and I had that we could not answer, and you have some answers or perspectives to share, please reach out and let us know um what what your what you've learned about the world that would help us inform our reading of this passage, maybe even more richly.

01:00:17.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, we would love it.

01:00:30.03
Nathan Pile
So ah we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:00:34.79
Kevin Shock
And peace.