Episode 25: Isaiah 52:13–53:12

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How do you feel when someone causes pain to another?

Additional texts:

Psalm 22

Hebrews 10:16-25

Hebrews 4:14-16; 5:7-9

John 18:1—19:42

Transcript

00:00:01.71
Nathan Pile
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.

00:00:07.48
Kevin Shock
Wow, there's a real handful of people who will get that reference Nathan.

00:00:11.14
Nathan Pile
There will be a few, there will be a few, and if you are 50 or over, you probably know what it is.

00:00:11.46
Kevin Shock
I mean I got it. Oh, Oh my goodness.

00:00:18.70
Nathan Pile
um But if you're 49, you might also know. um

00:00:24.95
Kevin Shock
All right, Kotter.

00:00:25.41
Nathan Pile
So, yeah, welcome back, Kotter. So we're not we we're not going to Mr. Kotter's class, but we are another episode of Tend, where we will...

00:00:41.46
Nathan Pile
Tend our spirits with scripture and conversation. um And maybe some, Kevin, maybe he's got some witty repartee for us today.

00:00:52.91
Nathan Pile
We'll see. um

00:00:57.18
Kevin Shock
that that reminds me uh one of our but one of our regular listeners sherry just told me yesterday that um she enjoys the rapport between the two of us and I said um I said that's what comes with 30 years of friendship but the other thing she said that really made me feel good about but the podcast is that she said ah she feels like um

00:01:25.50
Kevin Shock
as a listener, she feels like she's part of the friendship sometimes.

00:01:29.45
Nathan Pile
Oh good.

00:01:29.75
Kevin Shock
And, and I thought that that was really, yeah, that made me feel good.

00:01:30.33
Nathan Pile
Good. Yeah.

00:01:33.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:01:33.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:01:34.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:01:35.78
Nathan Pile
That does make make me feel good too.

00:01:36.07
Kevin Shock
Um,

00:01:37.55
Nathan Pile
So thanks for the comment, Sherry. That's fantastic. So we want, because we want it to feel like everyone's a part of the conversation.

00:01:40.73
Kevin Shock
yes. And, and while we're

00:01:44.97
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:01:45.23
Kevin Shock
absolutely, we do want it to feel that way. Yeah. And, uh, while we're talking about, uh, listeners, our listeners slash, uh, social media um star Hanna uh filled us in on some research about a question that was asked in an episode ah few episodes ago about whether the Israelites did circumcision in the wilderness ah during the exodus and um her jewish brother-in-law am i getting that right, Nathan

00:02:06.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:02:20.68
Nathan Pile
Correct. Yep, that's correct.

00:02:21.51
Kevin Shock
Yes, ah David pointed her in the right direction toward an article that very clearly explained that they did not do circumcisions in the desert. And Nathan and I also discovered that if we had only read a couple of verses,

00:02:39.30
Kevin Shock
started the reading a couple of verses earlier in the book of Joshua we would have gotten the answer um it it says right before that right before the section that we looked at in Joshua that they indeed began that uh that mark of the covenant again when they were in the promised land

00:02:47.84
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:02:59.14
Nathan Pile
Well, what's funny is like, I looked after it, but I didn't even think about looking before it. ah Like, like when we were doing it, like I paged I was like, is this anywhere?

00:03:06.47
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah yeah

00:03:09.66
Nathan Pile
Say why? they But I never thought about going backwards. Don't know why.

00:03:13.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it it it does make sense that it's there that it's a part of the ah it's, it's a mark of being established in the land again, being um in the words of Hosea once you were not a people and now you are a people.

00:03:13.84
Nathan Pile
So,

00:03:16.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Part of the story. no.

00:03:29.04
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:03:29.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, they were.

00:03:29.80
Nathan Pile
Well, and and a part of the a part of the explanation that Hanna sent us that was helpful is is and this is really we're we're going into the weeds here, folks. um is that that the early testament, that that first testament um of those first books of the Bible are are written, and then they're rewritten, and then they're rewritten again.

00:03:58.25
Nathan Pile
and so for some, there's even a fourth editor that comes upon it at some point in time. And so like there there were multiple edits or multiple rewritings.

00:04:10.61
Nathan Pile
um Again, if you think about scribes having to um take it from one manuscript and putting it into the next manuscript so that that's the only way they could make copies, right? There wasn't a printing press until Martin Luther and crew.

00:04:27.31
Nathan Pile
um Not that Martin Luther invented it. Gutenberg, everybody, Gutenberg.

00:04:31.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but it was right at the same time.

00:04:32.19
Nathan Pile
um But it was right at the same time.

00:04:35.14
Kevin Shock
Right in the same area, yeah.

00:04:35.49
Nathan Pile
um Yeah. And so, so what you had with these author or with these scribes that were writing was that somebody would be reading and like, oh, this needs a little bit more added to it you know, like, like, why is this important? So, so the explanation Hanna gave was very, it was very thorough and it helped to kind of lay those, um, those editors, um,

00:05:01.18
Nathan Pile
out over the the those I think they mentioned three I don't think they mentioned all four but I think they mentioned three of the four.

00:05:02.64
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:05:10.43
Nathan Pile
As when Kevin and I spent time in seminary that's what you do in seminary you get to dig into the weeds and when you're there you hear this you learn this history of how those early books are written and rewritten and um and so they're not changing

00:05:24.50
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:05:26.87
Nathan Pile
the story drastically, but they're asking, they're they're adding more to the story so that the next generation better understands the story as it's been, because this was ah an oral tradition that becomes a written tradition, if that makes sense.

00:05:39.47
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:05:40.28
Nathan Pile
And so it was a story that kept to getting told and told and told verbally all the time.

00:05:40.88
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:05:43.88
Nathan Pile
And so there were people that knew the big long story, but it was all oral. And so somebody writes down the first um the first version of this and then it gets edited and added to as it as more copies are made.

00:05:49.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:06:01.49
Nathan Pile
um and And believe it or not, this also is ah somewhat similar. to the gospel tradition that we have with um Mark and Matthew and Luke is also a similar, Mark is the the original gospel that we have.

00:06:10.21
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:06:14.65
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:06:18.00
Nathan Pile
And then they, they added to Mark. So, so it's pretty common in that old time period for those kinds of things to happen um because they're trying to

00:06:27.73
Kevin Shock
right

00:06:30.49
Nathan Pile
keep God's word relevant in, in the moment and, and share maybe a fuller understanding the standing of the story than, um, than what was first written.

00:06:42.09
Nathan Pile
And so, you know, and that's what we do with our sermons. You know, what pastors are trying to do with their sermons. We're not adding to scripture, but we're trying to put it into its context and share its meaning to today through that historical context.

00:06:57.12
Nathan Pile
So, so, there's a lot there.

00:06:57.88
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, no, that, no, that's all good.

00:07:01.43
Nathan Pile
Sorry. went down a rabbit hole.

00:07:03.93
Kevin Shock
That's all good. um ah but Right. um Preachers are commentators. I I always feel like we don't, people talk about writing a sermon, but um that, you're not, I mean, you might write a sermon, like, like that might be the physical thing that you do, but really it's not something that you just make up on your own.

00:07:10.10
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:07:25.06
Kevin Shock
It's it's commentary on something that has been,

00:07:28.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:07:28.51
Kevin Shock
shared for generations and generations yeah I um just to go a little bit farther into the weeds we haven't even gotten to the reading yet but um I've I've encountered some places some people lately who have asked me why ah our tradition does not believe that the bible is inerrant that's a word that comes up meaning that um that every word of the bible is infallible and that um

00:07:32.41
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:07:57.57
Kevin Shock
o that it that it's that it exists in the form in which God handed it down to the people who wrote it.

00:08:05.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:08:05.55
Kevin Shock
And this is exactly why. Because we know that throughout the course of time, oral tradition was handed down for both the pardon much of the of Hebrew scripture, but then also parts of the New Testament as well.

00:08:21.84
Nathan Pile
yeah absolutely.

00:08:23.05
Kevin Shock
and um and then And then it was written down, but then it was... it was Before printing, people had to transcribe it by hand.

00:08:32.69
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:08:32.79
Kevin Shock
It went through editing. um And the big thing is, frankly, we don't believe the Bible's inerrant because we don't read it in the original language.

00:08:44.35
Kevin Shock
It's already been translated. And then there are multiple translations for any given language.

00:08:46.11
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:08:49.98
Kevin Shock
so ah yeah um But we do, in our tradition, uphold that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. ah written by God's people. And ah the the line that we use in our confession of faith is that it is the authoritative source and norm of, and I can't remember, of the life of faith or something something like that. I can't remember the exact words, but yeah, that it's that it's inspired, it carries authority, but it is not exactly as God handed it down to the people at some point.

00:09:28.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:09:29.14
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:09:30.23
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:09:30.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Well, and I think our tradition

00:09:35.88
Nathan Pile
doesn't see that as a weakness.

00:09:38.89
Kevin Shock
No, I think we see it as a strength.

00:09:40.81
Nathan Pile
It's absolutely a strength. Yeah. So it's, we are.

00:09:42.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:09:43.97
Nathan Pile
So when I say our tradition, Lutheran Christians, ah ELCA Lutheran Christians um recognize that, go ahead.

00:09:51.58
Kevin Shock
and And at least one other denomination. Yeah.

00:09:56.93
Nathan Pile
And at least one other denomination.

00:09:59.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah. NALC Lutherans also don't but believe in inspired, not inerrant.

00:10:00.71
Nathan Pile
Oh, I'll, okay.

00:10:03.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:10:04.59
Nathan Pile
All right.

00:10:04.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:10:05.34
Nathan Pile
Um, I didn't want to speak for the other ones cause I'm not in any of their groups.

00:10:09.72
Kevin Shock
Right. I just know that to be the case, but yes.

00:10:10.62
Nathan Pile
So, okay. Well, thank you.

00:10:12.41
Kevin Shock
Anyway.

00:10:12.87
Nathan Pile
That I appreciate that.

00:10:13.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:10:14.58
Nathan Pile
You're, you're much more worldly than I am. Um, I live in the woods. um

00:10:21.38
Kevin Shock
ah Oh, what a blessed, what a blessed state of being, Nathan.

00:10:26.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:10:29.97
Nathan Pile
um ah Now I don't even know where I was going. So um ah and so we don't yeah we we we don't we don't see that it doesn't change the realities that God is the creator.

00:10:34.51
Kevin Shock
ah this You were talking about the strength of...

00:10:45.24
Nathan Pile
God is divine. like None of that changes. what What we as Lutheran Christians essentially this this stance is is is that that when people experience the holy...

00:11:00.58
Nathan Pile
thousands of years ago. um and they wrote down that what they feel God, God was calling them. There's still human beings that are writing that down.

00:11:11.75
Nathan Pile
um And so they're interpreting even even as good as of of a human being as we want to be, we're we're we always have our lens, right? This is what we talk about with this podcast is that we all have our lens. We all have our pair of glasses that we look at the world in, even if we're not wearing glasses.

00:11:30.60
Nathan Pile
it Our values, our experiences, the way we've been taught, all of that. And so every encounter with God is the same for us as we're experiencing God through that lens. And so those authors write it from their perspective, even if they're trying to get and it as, as complete as possible as they write it down.

00:11:51.25
Nathan Pile
This isn't, this isn't, they're not, what they were doing wasn't, they weren't, they weren't writing a history book. This happened and then this happened and then this happened.

00:11:57.37
Kevin Shock
No.

00:11:59.15
Nathan Pile
That's not what the the there meant that their intention was. Their intention was to be able to pass on the story of faith. of God's faith faithfulness for humanity and humanity's relationship with God and that and and essentially the times that we fall short of that, but also the times that we um that we live into that as disciples. So, um you know, good conversation.

00:12:25.25
Nathan Pile
Again, probably not, it's definitely not where we're gonna go today, but.

00:12:26.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:31.01
Kevin Shock
No, no, no, but, but I, but it matters.

00:12:34.74
Nathan Pile
But it does matter. so And if you've got questions about well anything that Kevin and I just said, um ah go ahead and email Kevin.

00:12:45.46
Kevin Shock
Well, you can email the podcast and yes, one of, one of us will attend to it.

00:12:48.35
Nathan Pile
yeah Well, and one of us will respond. and One of us will attend to it, yes.

00:12:51.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:52.84
Nathan Pile
um I was just saying that Kevin was going to do it.

00:12:53.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:12:55.31
Nathan Pile
No, but... um

00:12:57.27
Kevin Shock
Nathan always jokes like I'm the knowledgeable one, but I know Nathan was, ah and Nathan was a pretty good student when he was in seminary. He he knows many things that I also do not know. So.

00:13:07.74
Nathan Pile
we We're both, you know, we complement each other well. We complement each other well.

00:13:12.57
Kevin Shock
Yes, that's true.

00:13:13.29
Nathan Pile
So, all right.

00:13:14.32
Kevin Shock
All right. Do you want to give it.

00:13:14.77
Nathan Pile
So we're, there are three questions this week. I don't know if you guys knew this.

00:13:17.77
Kevin Shock
Did we even say, did we even say what the.

00:13:19.35
Nathan Pile
No, I'm getting there. Just give me give me a break. All right.

00:13:21.42
Kevin Shock
Okay. All right.

00:13:21.77
Nathan Pile
That's fine.

00:13:22.14
Kevin Shock
All right.

00:13:22.36
Nathan Pile
This is my, I have the baton.

00:13:22.67
Kevin Shock
All right. Okay.

00:13:25.13
Nathan Pile
um My daughter's in track season right now. So I have the baton. Then I'll hand it off to you in a relay here

00:13:29.28
Kevin Shock
Go with it.

00:13:32.77
Nathan Pile
So our Bible passage this ah this day is Isaiah 52, chapter 52, verse 13 to chapter 53, verse 12.

00:13:45.88
Nathan Pile
Kevin and I are going to read it from the Common English Bible, the CEB. This text is used for Good Friday, but you can listen along whenever it is whether it's before or after Good Friday.

00:13:59.58
Nathan Pile
Kevin and I are going to look at this text through three questions. I don't know if you've ever heard that before from us, but that's the way we do things here. ah Three questions. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

00:14:10.87
Nathan Pile
Toward what is God calling you in this text? And how do you feel when someone causes pain to another? Oy. I don't even like that question.

00:14:20.52
Kevin Shock
Yep. No, we'll we'll read the we'll read the passage and go from there.

00:14:21.74
Nathan Pile
But yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:25.66
Kevin Shock
ah Here's some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white firmly in our middle ages, ah college and seminary educated.

00:14:38.89
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:14:50.43
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience and perspective.

00:15:03.18
Kevin Shock
As Nathan said, we're reading from Isaiah chapters 52 and 53.

00:15:11.71
Kevin Shock
My servant will succeed. He will be exalted and lifted very high. Just as many were appalled by you, he too appeared disfigured, inhuman, his appearance unlike that of mortals.

00:15:25.86
Kevin Shock
But he will astonish many nations. Kings will be silenced because of him, because they will see what they haven't seen before. What they haven't heard before they will ponder. Who can believe what we have heard, and for whose sake has the Lord's arm been revealed?

00:15:43.24
Kevin Shock
He grew up like a young plant before us, like a root from dry ground. He possessed no splendid form for us to see, no desirable appearance. He was despised and avoided by others, a man who suffered, who knew sick sickness well, like someone from whom people hid their faces.

00:16:00.91
Kevin Shock
He was despised and we didn't think about him. It was certainly our sickness that he carried and our sufferings that he bore. But we thought Him afflicted, struck down by God, and tormented.

00:16:12.61
Kevin Shock
He was pierced because of our rebellions and crushed because of our crimes. He bore the punishment that made us whole. By His wounds we are healed. Like sheep we had all wandered away, each going its own way, but the Lord let fall on him all our crimes.

00:16:27.44
Kevin Shock
He was oppressed and tormented, but didn't open his mouth. Like a lamb being brought to slaughter, like a ewe silent before her shearers, he didn't open his mouth. Due to an unjust ruling, he was taken away, and his fate, who will think about it?

00:16:42.28
Kevin Shock
He was eliminated from the land of the living, struck dead because of my people's rebellion. His grave was among the wicked, his tomb with evildoers, though he had done no violence and had spoken nothing false.

00:16:55.45
Kevin Shock
But the Lord wanted to crush him and to make him suffer. If his life is offered as restitution, he will see his offspring. He will enjoy long life. The Lord's plans will come to fruition through him.

00:17:07.78
Kevin Shock
After his deep anguish, he will see light and he will be satisfied. Through his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, will make many righteous and will bear their guilt. Therefore I will give him a share with the great, and he will divide the spoil with the strong in return for exposing his life to death and being numbered with rebels, though he carried the sin of many and pleaded on behalf of those who rebelled.

00:17:34.16
Kevin Shock
If you are... with a group, you can pause the podcast and ask the questions of one another. ah But Nathan, we'll start with you. What word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

00:17:50.03
Nathan Pile
I'm interested, it happens both at the end of 52 and again in 53, that that the way that the servant looks isn't, um it's not good.

00:18:09.52
Nathan Pile
It's what were of some of the words that were used. Disfigured was one of them. Inhuman. um Average. Was it average? I don't remember.

00:18:20.30
Kevin Shock
I don't think.

00:18:20.91
Nathan Pile
Appalled. It was appalled. Now I'm looking at it here.

00:18:22.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:18:23.93
Nathan Pile
Appalled. um Just as many were appalled by you, he too appeared disfigured, inhuman, his appearance unlike that of mortals. um And so, like...

00:18:36.37
Nathan Pile
like

00:18:39.27
Nathan Pile
Isaiah has gone out of his way to make sure that we understand that, that the servant isn't, um,

00:18:53.97
Nathan Pile
it's really kind of pushed to the edges, uh, of, of what we would think to be, um, a good human being, you know, you know, when we, um,

00:18:57.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:19:09.60
Nathan Pile
we we are ah We are humans, we have our senses, but our eyes are one of the chief ways that we um take in information.

00:19:23.13
Nathan Pile
And so um here at the very beginning, Isaiah wants to make sure that that we understand that the servant that we're looking at isn't isn't the servant because the servant looks good.

00:19:38.66
Nathan Pile
It's not going to be, this person isn't going to do God's work because this person um is beautiful or is is attractive to the eye.

00:19:40.12
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:19:49.56
Nathan Pile
This person is

00:19:53.43
Nathan Pile
it very, again, we might use words like very basic, very um average. it's it you know the The author goes really to God's work.

00:20:06.92
Nathan Pile
disfigured and inhuman, you know, those are pretty rough responses of a description of another human being. If if I were to describe another human being that way, that would not be a nice description.

00:20:19.12
Nathan Pile
So, so I'm interested in,

00:20:19.54
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:20:23.20
Nathan Pile
um why Isaiah goes so far in this description of the suffering servant to, to remove

00:20:39.71
Nathan Pile
to remove any kind of, um, of, of majesty or importance from him, just from the way that the servant looks.

00:20:51.49
Kevin Shock
Mmhm, mhmm.

00:20:52.27
Nathan Pile
So,

00:20:56.03
Nathan Pile
So that that part of it here of the description is what caught my attention here as I moved, as as as you were reading, not only to hear it once, but then to hear it again at the beginning of 53.

00:21:06.55
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:21:07.71
Nathan Pile
What was the phrase? He possessed no splendid form for us to see, no desirable appearance.

00:21:12.76
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:21:14.69
Nathan Pile
um So we're where're we heard it four verses before and and we get a re- another dose of it just to make sure um we understand that there's nothing special visually about this human being.

00:21:30.19
Nathan Pile
in fact and In fact, it might be

00:21:35.38
Nathan Pile
more the other way.

00:21:36.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:21:38.47
Nathan Pile
So.

00:21:41.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um I think my my answer, my reflection is ah parallel to yours, and it's um it involves the appearance of the servant.

00:21:53.32
Kevin Shock
ah but ah But the thing that really struck me is that verse 15, the last verse in 52, that kings will be silenced because of him.

00:22:06.35
Kevin Shock
And this is what gets me. Because they will see what they haven't seen before and what they haven't heard before they will ponder. ah there's There's something about the fact that he's not, um the servant is not is not someone who to whom attention is paid.

00:22:27.94
Kevin Shock
ah But something will make people pay attention to him.

00:22:33.87
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:22:35.06
Kevin Shock
um And ah in in verse 3 in 53 too, in talking about the servant's appearance, um he was despised and we didn't think about him.

00:22:51.84
Kevin Shock
ah that Yeah, I don't know. there's There's something there that I think it's... I think it can be a good thing. It is a good thing whenever people become aware of something that they weren't aware of before.

00:23:07.47
Kevin Shock
it's a it it It opens an opportunity to think differently, to act differently, to be differently ah than you have previously. Yeah.

00:23:20.04
Kevin Shock
yeah So that's I'm just intrigued about how the servant catches catches our attention and and makes causes us pause and then we are changed because of who the servant is and what the servant does

00:23:44.21
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:23:45.20
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:23:46.85
Nathan Pile
The, um, and it's not just, but but it catches, it catches the King's attention too. It's not just everybody else.

00:23:55.00
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah right right

00:23:56.52
Nathan Pile
Like it's so, so I think the intention here of, of, of the writer of Isaiah is that we, that it's, that it's not just catching average everyday folks. This is catching everybody, even the most important in the land.

00:24:12.58
Kevin Shock
Mmhm

00:24:13.24
Nathan Pile
will have their attention drawn to this individual, but it's not again because of their looks.

00:24:16.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:24:21.50
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Not their appearance alone, for sure.

00:24:24.35
Nathan Pile
Not their appearance, not their appearance alone, right?

00:24:25.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:24:26.23
Nathan Pile
There's something that's drawing people to this.

00:24:26.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:24:32.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah. what I mean, what would it be then, Nathan? um If it's not their appearance, maybe that it's their experience. Maybe it's what they've faced. the The things that have made their appearance what it is.

00:24:49.67
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah, I don't know.

00:24:50.32
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:24:50.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess, you know, it's... um

00:24:56.38
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah. who Who gets attention on social media? The pretty people. I I mean, I don't know. A nicer way to say it. Yeah.

00:25:05.89
Nathan Pile
Well, like, but that's one of the things like, ah you know, I've been spending a lot of time here at camp.

00:25:13.63
Nathan Pile
We've been for the last couple of years, we've been spending a lot of time reading and trying to understand this technology. and how it's affecting our young people. um And the negative impact social media has on our young people.

00:25:30.27
Nathan Pile
And it's all about, do we look good enough? Did I use the right filter on my picture?

00:25:35.14
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah.

00:25:38.01
Nathan Pile
Did I, Did I put myself in a beautiful setting to take a picture?

00:25:38.54
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:25:42.54
Nathan Pile
Like I was all, I've I've been amazed when I go to places and the, to the level of, of work. Some people are going about to take a picture of themselves off of their phone.

00:25:58.05
Kevin Shock
Yeah,

00:25:58.50
Nathan Pile
So that, you know, the wind has got their hair blowing behind them and they got the ocean and like, and, and, and like, it'd be one thing if they just, they did all of that setup and they took the picture, but like they're there for a long time trying to get one picture that looks like,

00:26:04.15
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah

00:26:16.95
Nathan Pile
Great. So it's it's no longer about who they are. It's how they want to present themselves in this in this um media format um that that's not really real.

00:26:28.34
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:26:31.28
Nathan Pile
you know We've essentially created a fake persona of ourselves so that we could get likes and people say, oh, that look you look so beautiful in this photo. um And not that we don't, like I I want kids to be,

00:26:46.00
Nathan Pile
um hear words of affirmation that they are beautiful but if they know how much work they had to put into it and what they had to do to to curate that picture to make it just so it's they have to know that it's not truly them and so even the words of affirmation that they might receive from it there's doubt that comes into that and then they look at somebody else's picture and say well why can I look how good that picture is compared to my picture um

00:27:00.30
Kevin Shock
Right. yeah yeah

00:27:15.85
Nathan Pile
And so there's something about the so the servant here, the suffering servant, who takes image out of the equation.

00:27:24.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. well That's a really... Yeah, you unpacked that in a way that I had not been able to. Yeah.

00:27:36.38
Nathan Pile
Well, it was just because your question got me there. um I hadn't thought about it either in in my description.

00:27:40.64
Kevin Shock
Well, fine, fine.

00:27:42.02
Nathan Pile
but um but I But I think that's a powerful piece of like God knows that we get wrapped up on image.

00:27:50.74
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah yeah it it also brings to mind for me Nathan the um the the double standard of boys and girls growing up and um and how you know hearing in more recent years uh alternatives to things you can say to little girls aside from don't you look pretty today um you know commenting and said on oh

00:28:00.06
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:28:13.81
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:28:18.72
Kevin Shock
Oh, you ah you know, I I always feel good when I see you. Or you you make me happy. Or, yeah or you're smart or you're funny or, you know, things like that that aren't, that take take into account the whole person and not just how they look.

00:28:37.37
Nathan Pile
Yes.

00:28:38.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:38.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. You were a good leader. you I saw you what you did. that was You were a good leader.

00:28:42.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right, right, right.

00:28:43.31
Nathan Pile
you know Things that we would tell boys for their sports teams, something like that, it goes both ways. like We have to be able to to say both of them.

00:28:52.07
Kevin Shock
Right, right. and i'm And I'm sure that there's some there's some stuff there, too. with yeah I mean, kids kids of different classes, kids of different races all deal with different kinds of appearance things.

00:29:04.51
Kevin Shock
um And, yeah.

00:29:09.15
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I mean, all all all kids do, but it but it varies depending on what, what your background is so right how do, how do we take notice of people, I mean that's exactly what's happening here is that um the the image, the image of this person was nothing that would make us take notice, but then, but then people did take notice of him.

00:29:29.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:34.31
Nathan Pile
All right. Well, you want to do this a second time?

00:29:37.54
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:29:42.93
Nathan Pile
Look, my servant will succeed. He will be exalted and lifted very high. Just as many were appalled by you, he too appeared disfigured, inhuman.

00:29:54.39
Nathan Pile
His appearance unlike that of mortal's. but he will astonish many nations. Kings will be silenced because of him, because they will see what they haven't seen before.

00:30:07.96
Nathan Pile
What they haven't heard before, they will ponder.

00:30:12.94
Nathan Pile
Who can believe what we have heard? And for whose sake has the Lord's arm been revealed? He grew up like a young plant before us.

00:30:25.10
Nathan Pile
before us like a root from dry ground. He possessed no splendid form for us to see, no desirable appearance. He was despised and avoided by others, a man who suffered, who knew sickness well.

00:30:41.81
Nathan Pile
Like someone from whom people hid their faces, he was despised and we didn't think about him.

00:30:49.94
Nathan Pile
It was certainly our sickness that he carried and our sufferings that he bore But he thought we thought him afflicted, struck down by God and tormented.

00:31:01.98
Nathan Pile
He was pierced because of our rebellions and crushed because of our crimes. He bore the punishment that made us whole. By his wounds we are healed.

00:31:14.71
Nathan Pile
Like sheep we had all wandered away, each going its own way. But the Lord let fall on him all our crimes. He was oppressed and tormented, but didn't open his mouth.

00:31:29.57
Nathan Pile
Like a lamb being brought to slaughter, like a ewe silent before her shearers, he didn't open his mouth.

00:31:39.56
Nathan Pile
Due to an unjust ruling, he was taken away, and his fate, who will think about it?

00:31:49.37
Nathan Pile
He was eliminated from the land of the living, struck dead because of my people's rebellion.

00:31:57.42
Nathan Pile
His grave who was among the wicked, his tomb with evildoers, though he had done no violence and had spoken nothing false. But the Lord wanted to crush him, to make him suffer.

00:32:13.03
Nathan Pile
If his life is offered as restitution, he will see his offspring. He will enjoy long life. The Lord's plans will come to fruition through him.

00:32:27.43
Nathan Pile
After his deep anguish, he will see light and he will be satisfied. Through his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, will make many righteous and will bear their guilt.

00:32:41.20
Nathan Pile
Therefore, I will give him a share with the great and he will divide the spoil with the strong and return for exposing his life to death and being numbered with rebels, though he carried the sin of many

00:32:54.41
Nathan Pile
and pleaded on behalf of those who rebelled

00:33:01.15
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is god calling you in this text?

00:33:06.14
Kevin Shock
ah Is it too obvious to say take notice of others? um I, I mean, maybe it's, well, maybe it's the obvious answer for me since that was something that it was already in my mind and on my heart.

00:33:25.13
Kevin Shock
um

00:33:28.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm just kind of trying to

00:33:37.52
Kevin Shock
trying to be aware of what the who the suffering servant is and what it means for humankind um you mentioned at the beginning of this podcast that this is a reading for good Friday but of course um you know talking talking about the inerrancy of scripture and the or the in the inspired nature of scripture earlier ah Christian people read this and our minds go to Jesus, but it was this was written way, way before Jesus ever existed.

00:34:07.00
Nathan Pile
Now. Hmm.

00:34:11.17
Kevin Shock
um

00:34:11.91
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:34:12.62
Kevin Shock
So there are different different theories. The one that's most prevalent in my experience, in my education, is that the servant is actually a metaphor for the whole nation of Israel.

00:34:26.56
Kevin Shock
um and I don't know if that's true or not um maybe Hanna's brother-in-law can help us out with that one too uh but um but I think um going back to what you were talking about before I I you know we're so focused on image in our society as as humankind we're focused on image and uh And I think that something that has really weighed heavily on me lately is hearing, well, not just lately, it's been a long time, but but hearing how people generalize the experience of others.

00:35:07.21
Kevin Shock
That you see one one one person and you make them representative of an entire group of people. And that's just not, it's not fair.

00:35:20.43
Kevin Shock
It doesn't, it doesn't take into account.

00:35:25.97
Kevin Shock
the The varied experiences that people have and, and even, um,

00:35:34.42
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah I mean, it's, it's, it's judgmental, it's condemning in a way that doesn't even because usually when a generalization is made, it's not the generalization you're making about someone ah with whom you're in close relationship with, and all the people that represent them.

00:35:50.74
Kevin Shock
It's someone you see on the news or someone that you have a brief encounter with in a grocery store, you know, it's that.

00:35:56.47
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:36:00.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. the the the The whole generalization of you know how insert group here is or what they do or how they act or yeah.

00:36:09.66
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

00:36:14.33
Nathan Pile
And, um, for those of you listening, Kevin and I have been a part of a Lenten study, um, And some of you we know are a part of that Lenten study, ah but we're looking at Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And so this is already in the front of Kevin and I's mind.

00:36:30.95
Nathan Pile
Some of this theme um of the other end of neighbor, because it's very prevalent in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings about our neighbor and the other, how important that is.

00:36:31.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's true. That's, yep.

00:36:42.75
Nathan Pile
um in his understanding of what it means to to be a Christian today, or from his time in the nineteen forty s nineteen thirty s nineteen forty s

00:36:53.28
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:36:54.20
Nathan Pile
um

00:36:56.89
Nathan Pile
But yeah I'm I'm with you, Kevin, in that that this piece also, you know, your reflection, but also this passage calls us to be paying attention to the other, especially as as you you help share some of the history of this is like we as Christians have looked back and said, oh, this suffering servant is Christ.

00:37:19.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:22.02
Nathan Pile
Sure. And and it can it can point to God's servant in the world. But you're talking about, you know, 500, 700 years later. Yeah.

00:37:34.93
Nathan Pile
seven hundred years later um

00:37:38.36
Kevin Shock
Right. Mm-hmm.

00:37:39.02
Nathan Pile
you know, this is the, that we're talking about this here. So, um so it's not like Isaiah knows who this entity is. And and so um I too appreciate that, that um image of this being the, the people of Israel, God's god's chosen people are that suffering servant um because they would have suffered. They wouldn't look like much, but,

00:38:05.12
Nathan Pile
um You know, if you if you think of Israel as as one one ah entity, um you know, they they would not have been the most regal kingdom or empire that would have been, you know, they were slaves for for a a portion of their history and and so forth.

00:38:24.86
Kevin Shock
Right, yeah.

00:38:26.12
Nathan Pile
And so and there's all of that that gets

00:38:29.37
Nathan Pile
that gets put into this um as a part of this understanding of this story, but that the the suffering servant still is doing something for others, um is seeking to suffer so that others have life um and bringing about God's plan um

00:38:55.90
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:38:55.93
Nathan Pile
so that so that others um might live in in right relationship with God and so and what that means and looks like.

00:38:56.04
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:39:04.18
Nathan Pile
So there's there's this piece, and and I've been wrestling with this, and I know it's come up in past podcasts recently because it it's in lots of places that I'm working right now, this idea of others, not just this Bonhoeffer study, but we're trying to figure out some things at camp, long-term, programmatic kind of stuff.

00:39:22.41
Nathan Pile
um I'm pretty sure I talked about a grant a couple of weeks ago, um you know, thinking about the other.

00:39:26.11
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:39:27.97
Nathan Pile
How do we we live in a so- society that has taught us to look at ourselves and make ourselves first and foremost. And yet we're coming from a ah Bible tradition, a scriptural tradition that says, seek the other, seek the good for the other.

00:39:47.20
Nathan Pile
um and And we hear that in this passage as well. So I think that's powerful.

00:39:50.67
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just want to push back a little on something you said, ah that the that the servant is seeking out the suffering for the sake of the other.

00:39:57.49
Nathan Pile
Okay.

00:40:03.92
Kevin Shock
I think that in some regard, we could say that about Jesus. um But also, Jesus was not going to Pilate or to the scribes and Pharisees and saying,

00:40:20.64
Kevin Shock
Go ahead and nail me to the cross. he

00:40:22.93
Nathan Pile
sure

00:40:23.67
Kevin Shock
he was He was there teaching about and showing the kingdom of God to the people.

00:40:34.75
Kevin Shock
and And that's what got him into that place of suffering.

00:40:34.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:40:39.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:40:40.28
Kevin Shock
um because it was and And so umm ah the only reason I'm pushing back too is not just on Jesus' term, but I think that there are people in the world and maybe more than we would like to admit who suffer.

00:40:54.01
Kevin Shock
Uh, it says here somewhere in this reading, uh, who suffer because of the sins of others and they do not seek it out. It's, it's an, it's an unjust thing.

00:41:03.00
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:41:05.75
Nathan Pile
Yeah, seek probably wasn't the right word because I would agree with you.

00:41:05.91
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, yeah, there yeah, yeah.

00:41:08.60
Nathan Pile
Jesus isn't seeking it. um It might be that it finds the suffering servant. Yeah.

00:41:15.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no, I, right yes, I would, right. That's why I said push back a little bit, because, right, it was just a, it was just a nuance.

00:41:17.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:21.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no, I, agree I, yes, that I agree with, that I, yeah.

00:41:22.31
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:25.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:41:26.88
Nathan Pile
So, but for all of the reasons you said, so so to help people understand that we're, we don't, again, part of what Kevin and I are saying here is our theology isn't that Jesus came down here trying to figure out or find suffering, you know, go ahead and, and, um,

00:41:26.92
Kevin Shock
um

00:41:48.72
Nathan Pile
and And kill me, go ahead. And this is why I've come here.

00:41:50.78
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:41:52.29
Nathan Pile
No, Jesus has come here. And our response to God's love and teaching was, you don't fit in here. We're going to kill you.

00:42:00.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if anything, I think we can say that suffering found Jesus because he was so closely related to all of the people who were already suffering.

00:42:17.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's who he spent time with.

00:42:18.95
Nathan Pile
We, right. Yeah.

00:42:21.71
Kevin Shock
That's who he was seeking to heal.

00:42:24.31
Nathan Pile
You didn't come and and um and rub elbows with us, the powerful, and get on our so ah get out on our good side.

00:42:30.24
Kevin Shock
Correct.

00:42:32.49
Nathan Pile
Instead, what you keep pulling up is our shortcomings and our failings. And so because you keep doing that, or we're going to take care of you.

00:42:40.03
Kevin Shock
Right. Yep. yeah Yep. ah Nathan, I know that you you had a lot of reflection there. Did you actually answer the question number two toward what is God calling you?

00:42:50.06
Nathan Pile
I did not. I did reflect a lot on you, um, on your response, not on you. Um, the, I think for me, it goes back up to what we started to talk about in the first piece, which is, um, I feel called to ponder.

00:43:06.62
Nathan Pile
Um, what is it that, um, God is trying to teach us in, um in the suffering servant.

00:43:19.45
Nathan Pile
but you know Again, whether it is the nation of Israel, whether it is Jesus, um what is it that I've not paid attention to, that I've not seen, I've not heard?

00:43:32.60
Nathan Pile
What is it that I need to be pondering about who God is? Especially in this season of Lent, of Good Friday, um of of who who God is, I think um I I can say without a doubt that my understanding of who Jesus is and why Jesus is has come from the time that I was a young adult in my 20s to the time I went to seminary in my thirties

00:44:06.58
Nathan Pile
late thirties or no early 20s, late twenties, early thirties.

00:44:10.29
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:44:10.31
Nathan Pile
Um, and now having served as a, um, a pastor in the church for more than 18 years, um,

00:44:10.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:44:20.97
Nathan Pile
um that my theology of who Jesus is, of who God is, has definitely changed. It has, I've continued to ask questions about it. I've continued to say this doesn't, this thing that I was taught by another loving Christian,

00:44:42.18
Nathan Pile
doesn't seem to fit what I'm seeing and hearing now for myself with my lens of who God is. There's still something maybe that was taught to me that was that limited

00:44:51.30
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:44:55.18
Nathan Pile
Jesus being able to do that. And so, yeah. yeah And so my best way to to say that, like, so I've tried to exemplify that. Here's an example. An example would be, um and this is an ongoing thing that I wrestle with um listeners.

00:45:10.85
Nathan Pile
And Kevin will tell you that sometimes I corner him to try to get a better answer from him so that I can wrestle with it a little bit more. um Really God needed to kill Jesus to be able to forgive me.

00:45:24.88
Nathan Pile
You know, that that was something that was taught to me as a kid was Jesus hung on the cross so that God could forgive me. Um, and so really the all powered full divine being who created the universe needed to kill his only son so that I might be forgiven.

00:45:44.04
Nathan Pile
So I have transitioned through many many many many, many, many, um, questions of that from the time I was a kid to now in my, at 49 young, a young 49. Um,

00:45:57.56
Nathan Pile
um the, but how do but still have to try to make sense of who God is in this person of Jesus, the Christ.

00:46:10.16
Nathan Pile
And so, um so that's an ongoing part of that process. And so, uh, so I share that to kind of say like over time I have, I have wrestled with and and need to continue to ponder,

00:46:25.72
Nathan Pile
what What is God? Who is God? And how is God living in the world today? How is God calling me to be a disciple today and to be able to look at scripture and to to flesh that out more?

00:46:38.61
Nathan Pile
And that's an ongoing question. and And I would hope for me will continue to be an ongoing question in my life. It's something that Kevin and I've been talking about in this Lenten study as well with Bonhoeffer of how

00:46:53.20
Nathan Pile
Getting to that place, also, it's a little unsettling because it doesn't mean, boom, I've got the black and white answer here. um Because it's still a little gray.

00:47:00.94
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:47:02.11
Nathan Pile
I'm still in the journey of trying to figure out who is God and because God is bigger than what Nathan Pile thinks. Nathan Pile, I've made my box and I've labeled it God and this is who God is.

00:47:16.20
Nathan Pile
And now my box had to get a little bit bigger because my world got bigger. And so I need to continue to ponder, need to continue to be looking for the way God is revealing God's self in our world.

00:47:28.14
Nathan Pile
So that's where, that was my, what I feel called to.

00:47:32.91
Kevin Shock
That was, um, you just opened up the door to a whole other episode, Nathan. Um, cause we could talk about that forever, but I, but I, yeah, I, I,

00:47:41.50
Nathan Pile
Yeah, we could. we could But it is Good Friday, so I think this is a great place to wrestle with it. if you're If you're preaching on a Good Friday, this is a beautiful place to wrestle with this.

00:47:48.52
Kevin Shock
yeah. Yeah. Or, or even if you're not preaching, if you're just paying attention to what's going on in worship. or even just thinking about people who are suffering in this world. It's a right.

00:48:01.44
Kevin Shock
Why, did why did Jesus come? ah And right. Was it to assuage the wrath of a wrathful God? Well, that doesn't fit with, that doesn't fit with the theology that we, yeah.

00:48:12.60
Nathan Pile
like Everything else we talk about a loving God.

00:48:15.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um But, but I do think that, We could go down the road of all different kinds of atonement theories. And that, and the one that you name is certainly one of them that, that God had to send Jesus to, to kill him, to sacrifice him for our sake.

00:48:26.75
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:48:33.47
Kevin Shock
um But the ones who killed Jesus in the gospels are the human beings.

00:48:41.66
Kevin Shock
Like that's, that's pretty clear. And I think that, I think that one level of atonement um and that is atonement is an an act of reconciliation of making right relationship between God and humankind.

00:48:54.76
Kevin Shock
ah One level of atonement is exactly what we read here. um Jesus forces us to see what we haven't seen before and to hear what we haven't heard before so that we will ponder it.

00:49:08.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

00:49:09.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And looking at the time of our podcast, Maybe we can let it we can let it rest at that for now.

00:49:17.14
Nathan Pile
So Kevin, Kevin made a whole podcast in two minutes, everybody.

00:49:17.26
Kevin Shock
And send...

00:49:20.43
Nathan Pile
So just know that he wrapped it up in two minutes.

00:49:20.81
Kevin Shock
No, that's not... No, no, no, no, no. I was that was just That was just one point related to this text specifically. um And that was why I said it. And send all of your questions about atonement theory to Nathan at tend.biblepodcast@gmail.com.

00:49:33.60
Nathan Pile
Oh, yeah, because I love atonement theory. Oh. to Have no doubt, every everyone, the answer will be coming from Kevin if you're asking about atonement theory.

00:49:40.00
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:49:43.71
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:49:50.17
Kevin Shock
Now, I don't know that I can speak to all the theories either. I have a book somewhere where I can i can pull some of them out.

00:49:54.33
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:49:55.11
Kevin Shock
But anyway, um okay.

00:49:56.04
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Third time through.

00:49:57.47
Kevin Shock
let's Let's look at it a third time.

00:49:58.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:49:59.10
Kevin Shock
All right.

00:49:59.62
Nathan Pile
Yep, yep.

00:49:59.87
Kevin Shock
From Isaiah 52 and 53. Look, my servant will succeed. He will be exalted and lifted very high. And just as many were appalled by you, he too appeared disfigured, inhuman,

00:50:12.98
Kevin Shock
his appearance unlike that of mortals, but he will astonish many nations. Kings will be silenced because of him, because they will see what they haven't seen before, what they haven't heard before they will ponder.

00:50:24.89
Kevin Shock
Who can believe what we have heard, and for whose sake has the Lord's arm been revealed? He grew up like a young plant before us, like a root from dry ground. He possessed no splendid form for us to see, no desirable appearance.

00:50:38.51
Kevin Shock
He was despised and avoided by others, a man who suffered, who knew sickness well. Like someone from whom people hid their faces, he was despised, and we didn't think about him. It was certainly our sickness that he carried and our sufferings that he bore, but we thought him afflicted, struck down by God and tormented.

00:50:57.24
Kevin Shock
He was pierced because of our rebellions and crushed because of our crimes. He bore the punishment that made us whole. By his wounds we are healed. Like sheep we had all wandered away, each going its own way.

00:51:09.51
Kevin Shock
But the Lord let fall on him all our crimes. He was oppressed and tormented, but didn't open his mouth. Like a lamb being brought to slaughter, like a ewe silent before her shearers, he didn't open his mouth.

00:51:22.16
Kevin Shock
due to an unjust ruling he was taken away and his fate who will think about it he was eliminated from the land of the living struck dead because of my people's rebellion his grave was among the wicked his tomb with evil-doers though he had done no violence and had spoken nothing false But the Lord wanted to crush him and to make him suffer.

00:51:43.42
Kevin Shock
If his life is offered as restitution, he will see his offspring. He will enjoy long life. The Lord's plans will come to fruition through him. After his deep anguish he will see light and he will be satisfied.

00:51:57.27
Kevin Shock
Through his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will make many righteous and will bear their guilt. Therefore I will give him a share with the great and he will divide the spoil with the strong.

00:52:08.12
Kevin Shock
in return for exposing his life to death and being numbered with rebels, though he carried the sin of many and pleaded on behalf of those who rebelled.

00:52:18.98
Kevin Shock
Okay, Nathan, question number three, you're first up. How do you feel when someone causes pain to another?

00:52:25.60
Nathan Pile
Um, I am not my best self.

00:52:30.97
Nathan Pile
Um, and what I mean by that is that usually if I'm in, in a space where one person's words or actions are hurting another, um, and I would say typically I'm in a, I'm, I'm, I'm in spaces where somebody can be saying something not nice.

00:52:52.12
Nathan Pile
If physical harm is is a part of it, that's another whole level of um stuff too. But I'm I'm And so when I say this, I would have a similar reaction to both of them.

00:53:04.91
Nathan Pile
um One of the points we make at camp is that we talk about the difference between what is being safe and being uncomfortable. And a lot of times for my, for the young adults that work at here at camp, they feel this, that's they feel like those two things are the same.

00:53:22.66
Nathan Pile
And so I have to spend some time talking with them about the difference between being unsafe and being uncomfortable. Safe is a place where physically I am safe. I am, I am not in a place where I will, where I'm worried about my,

00:53:40.33
Nathan Pile
any kind of physical harm coming to me um or emotional harm. You know, I feel safe. um The place where we talk about being uncomfortable is, is um when we're maybe in a small group with somebody that we're,

00:53:58.60
Nathan Pile
that is a different gender. It could be a different race. It could be a different religion, but we're in that group. And maybe some of the ideas that are shared make us feel uncomfortable.

00:54:15.60
Nathan Pile
So we're not unsafe, but we're, we're, were not comfortable either. And so, so I share all of that to kind of say, um, when we put people in unsafe spaces, like I, I I'm angry.

00:54:22.72
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Hmm.

00:54:33.45
Nathan Pile
and And that's the part where I say I'm not my best self because I, sometimes my anger means that I'm not kind to the person who's struggling in an uncomfortable situation.

00:54:46.60
Nathan Pile
Because what they what their response has been, they're uncomfortable. And so they, their words or their actions sometimes lash out and it makes the other person unsafe.

00:54:57.31
Nathan Pile
And so then my anger, haven't found a way to be able to control that sometimes. And so what what can happen is that I get I get into protection mode.

00:55:09.70
Nathan Pile
And that means that I... can, you know, not, I'm not going to attack the other person, but I will, I can, I can, um,

00:55:25.24
Nathan Pile
try to put my most dominant foot forward to try and, um, stop the interaction that's going on. And, and because of that air on the side of not being able to help the person who's uncomfortable,

00:55:40.62
Nathan Pile
express their uncomfortability, you know, and asking them a question that might get them to talk and, and pull it out of them. Instead, what I'll do is if I feel like someone has been put into an unsafe position, um,

00:55:53.31
Nathan Pile
or And so that idea of pain being caused them. So that's where safe is. There's pain there. I also get that there's pain in feeling uncomfortable.

00:56:04.58
Nathan Pile
But to me, that is a there that there's that that pain is a pain of I've created a way to look at the world and you're breaking that system for me.

00:56:16.99
Nathan Pile
And that's why I'm uncomfortable. So there's ah there's a piece there of, of ah it's a pain of of thought um or of of ah of ah of an invisible boundary, a way that I've made my box and I've labeled it people.

00:56:20.27
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:56:33.61
Nathan Pile
And again, it's that idea when we generalize about a population, um we you talked about earlier in this podcast. um So for me, when when when someone else is experiencing pain,

00:56:47.43
Nathan Pile
someone else's causing someone else's pain. My response is, is, ah is unfortunately at times anger as and instead of, because I've made a judgment, you know, and we've talked in this podcast before that judgment, um, like it's better for me to, to be curious, make sure that the person that feels unsafe,

00:57:07.75
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:57:10.02
Nathan Pile
gets protected. so that would be the first thing that I need to do. But then be curious to help the person that might be feeling uncomfortable to flesh that out. Unfortunately, err on the side of of protecting the unsafe person.

00:57:27.49
Nathan Pile
And therefore my anger sometimes gets lashed out at the person that might be uncomfortable. And so I've not helped them in their uncomfortability, uncomfortable ability.

00:57:38.24
Nathan Pile
um but I've but I have tried to secure or make safer um the person that might have felt unsafe in the moment.

00:57:51.31
Nathan Pile
And so so like

00:57:55.47
Nathan Pile
I think that's a part of, like I don't love my response. Like when I read your question, I don't love my personal response because I would try to live more fully in trying to,

00:58:08.31
Nathan Pile
ah to to recognize that both are in pain at some level. um But as I know about myself, I can do one thing at a time well.

00:58:19.58
Nathan Pile
And so ah not Not that I'm going going rationally through my head at that moment in time, but the thing I know about myself is to have me try to do two things at once, I can't do either thing very well.

00:58:30.33
Nathan Pile
So I end up doing one thing. And so the one thing that like that I know that I react to in that moment when someone else is being hurt is how do I make, how do I protect? And so that's where, and in in that time of protection, I'm I'm, I can, I lose my ability to be able to be compassionate for the person that's doing the harming if that makes sense so so that was a long way to get there but that's kind of where i that's what that's how your question struck me in the midst of this and it's about the it's about the other right it's about that other

00:58:56.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure. Yeah, really.

00:59:04.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, really.

00:59:09.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think your reflection. um First of all, I've I've used that ah being safe versus being comfortable quite a bit lately. Yeah.

00:59:21.57
Kevin Shock
And, and I think that, um, there are, but maybe the question was a bit lacking because there are different kinds of pain. There are, there's pain that comes from affliction, which I think is the pain that I was intending to talk about there in that question and the pain that comes from growth and the pain from that comes from growth is something that I don't have a problem letting someone sit in that pain.

00:59:33.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Okay.

00:59:38.87
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Yeah.

00:59:45.92
Kevin Shock
Uh, But the pain that comes from affliction, that's different. I would say the thing that I that I don't like about my response is different from yours. And that is, if I'm in the presence of someone who's feeling pain from affliction, I don't feel like I have much of a problem stepping in.

01:00:04.22
Kevin Shock
But if I hear about it on the news or see about it or, you know, see it somewhere or see it from afar and I'm not directly involved in the situation, um it's easy for me to be upset about it, feel a sense of injustice about it in the moment and then go about my life and ponder it no longer.

01:00:07.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:00:27.46
Kevin Shock
I mean, ah ponder it no longer in the sense that I one one thing that has been bothering me lately um is the both for myself and for other people is the amount of um

01:00:43.70
Kevin Shock
social media advocacy. I just don't I don't think sharing a meme changes anything. And I think that a lot of us, myself included, have been fooled into thinking that sharing a meme does something.

01:00:59.24
Kevin Shock
um But I don't think it does. And I think I think it's a way that we feel, we can make feel like we're doing something about an injustice or, you know, helping to alleviate the pain of another that, you know,

01:01:17.00
Kevin Shock
that I think we we might do in very small amounts through social media, but only very small amounts. The only the only thing I can think of is when we maybe post something that is, um that generalizes a group of people, but and in a positive way.

01:01:32.78
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01:33.86
Kevin Shock
um I mean, you and I are recording this, Nathan, on the transent- transgender day of visibility. um And, ah ah you know, I feel like,

01:01:46.59
Kevin Shock
I could share a meme on social media, but the reality is the number of people on so- on my social media who will see it, that it will make a difference to, ah is very minute.

01:02:00.66
Kevin Shock
So minute that I could probably take a similar amount of time and text all the transgender people in my life that I see them and that I love them.

01:02:09.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:02:11.44
Kevin Shock
um and And it's not saying that people can't do both. but ah But I do think that for me, i shouldn't speak for everybody. For me, social media has led to a feeling of, oh, I care about something. I'm going to speak up about it.

01:02:27.28
Kevin Shock
But I'm not really doing anything to alter my life at all to really do something about it.

01:02:34.66
Kevin Shock
So, yeah.

01:02:38.42
Kevin Shock
Anyway, so, I yeah, I feel bad. But then I also... like go about my life, which isn't good.

01:02:46.35
Nathan Pile
Yeah, well, and I would echo your comment that it that that when it's when it's local, when it's a space and place that I can be in I'm much more quick I much more quickly step to the to the need, to the to the to the pain in the situation, as opposed to ah on a, you know, there's been a lot of pain in the last couple of weeks of,

01:03:16.77
Nathan Pile
um organizations, people be, you know, firings and shifting in our government our government's values shifting ah away from um some of the their work in DEI um and like I don't know how I don't know how to fix that And so I have not engaged you know in any way

01:03:44.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:03:50.89
Nathan Pile
in on a on a national scale to try to remedy that. Even though I know there's pain in that for others, I feel pretty powerless in that.

01:04:04.10
Nathan Pile
Now, as a camp director, I do have some ability to try to create a community here that might look and feel differently than our current national stage.

01:04:19.24
Nathan Pile
And so that's where I've put my effort in. But just because I do it locally doesn't mean I can't do it globally um or on a bigger scale.

01:04:31.87
Nathan Pile
I just not I I just haven't haven't put any I haven't put the energy into it. I read a news article and it made made me angry.

01:04:38.63
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:04:41.43
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:04:41.58
Nathan Pile
but it hasn't caused me to to respond in some way um to change that.

01:04:52.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:55.68
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so I just, I echo those sentiments that you shared that I too feel that I don't don't engage at that level.

01:05:06.36
Nathan Pile
So.

01:05:07.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:05:09.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:05:12.30
Nathan Pile
Oh, no.

01:05:12.89
Kevin Shock
All right. Well, I mean, this is a, this is a lot we've boy, we've really hit on a, we've scratched the surface on a lot of deep stuff in this episode.

01:05:14.10
Nathan Pile
All right.

01:05:19.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah, no.

01:05:21.78
Kevin Shock
So, uh, the email should be rolling in for us to respond to Nathan.

01:05:29.38
Kevin Shock
How about you tell us about some additional texts?

01:05:32.95
Nathan Pile
Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? the Again, of a psalm that you might hear at a Good Friday service um this week when you go.

01:05:45.50
Nathan Pile
Hebrews chapter 10, verses 16 to 25, the way God is opened by Jesus' death. Hebrews chapter 4, verses 14 16, chapter five verse seven to nine Jesus is our merciful high priest.

01:06:02.06
Nathan Pile
And then the passion and death in John's gospel, uh, John chapter 18 verses one through chapter 19 verse 42, um, would be additional texts that you can read and, um, uh, ponder, um, who God is, in, uh,

01:06:20.68
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:06:26.18
Nathan Pile
and and how God lives with you. So as always, Kevin, i appreciate your reflections and our time of sharing together. um it the does my heart and spirit well to have these conversations with a trusted friend and with others who might be listening in. So we hope to tend our faith with you again soon.

01:06:50.64
Nathan Pile
Grace to you.

01:06:52.15
Kevin Shock
And peace.