Episode 28: Acts 9:1-20

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What will you declare about Jesus?

Additional texts:

Psalm 30

Revelation 5:11-14

John 21:1-19

Transcript

00:02.08
Kevin Shock
Well, hello there. It's nice to tend with you today.

00:04.42
Nathan Pile
Hello.

00:08.02
Kevin Shock
I had. I had literally nothing planned, obviously. um Today, what the heck? ah

00:15.41
Nathan Pile
and you You need some kind of like an intro, like ah Mr. Rogers. We'll have to come up with that in our fourth season.

00:20.65
Nathan Pile
We'll have to come up with a little, won't you be my neighbor?

00:25.36
Kevin Shock
You did that one time, yeah.

00:27.11
Nathan Pile
Oh, did I? Yeah.

00:28.19
Kevin Shock
You did. Yeah.

00:29.91
Nathan Pile
You have a better memory than I do.

00:32.00
Kevin Shock
and That's well, thank you for that, I think. um Anyway, we're going to attend today. Nathan and I, Nathan and I were just talking about talking it to each other.

00:40.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:42.29
Kevin Shock
So now we're going to talk to each other about scripture. um And today we're looking at Acts chapter nine, verses one through 20. We're looking at the common English Bible.

00:54.42
Kevin Shock
ah We have three questions to ah stoke the fires of conversation today. The first, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? The second, toward what is God calling you in this text?

01:08.59
Kevin Shock
And the third, what will you declare about Jesus?

01:13.17
Nathan Pile
Ooh. Some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white firmly in our middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church, and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

01:29.56
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read Scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to discuss read and discuss Scripture than any anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

01:46.62
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience as you engage Scripture. today. We're going to look at Acts, the ninth chapter.

02:03.08
Nathan Pile
Meanwhile Saul was still spewing out murderous threats against the lord's disciples he went to the high priest seeking letters to the synagogues in Damascus if he found persons who belonged to the way Whether men or women, these letters would authorize him to take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

02:27.56
Nathan Pile
During the journey, as he approached Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven encircled him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you harassing me?

02:41.09
Nathan Pile
Saul asked, Who are you, Lord? I am Jesus, whom you are harassing, came the reply. Now get up and enter the city.

02:53.45
Nathan Pile
You will be told what you must do. Those traveling with him stood there speechless. They heard the voice but saw no one. After they picked him,

03:03.97
Nathan Pile
They picked Saul up from the ground. He opened his eyes, but he couldn't see. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind and neither ate nor drank anything.

03:18.25
Nathan Pile
In Damascus there was a certain disciple called or named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision. Ananias said,

03:30.13
Nathan Pile
He answered, Yes, Lord. The Lord instructed him, Go to Judas' house on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named t Saul. He is praying.

03:42.11
Nathan Pile
In a vision, he has seen a man named Ananias enter and put his hands on him to restore his sight. Ananias countered, Lord, I have heard many reports about this man.

03:55.72
Nathan Pile
People say he has done horrible things to your holy people in Jerusalem. He's here with authority from the chief priests to arrest everyone who calls on your name.

04:07.79
Nathan Pile
The Lord replied, Go. This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites. I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.

04:22.82
Nathan Pile
Ananias went to the house. He placed his hands on Saul and said, Brother Saul, the Lord sent me, Jesus, who appeared to you on the way as you were coming here.

04:34.63
Nathan Pile
He sent me so that you could see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Instantly, flakes fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. He got up and was baptized.

04:46.23
Nathan Pile
After eating, he regained his strength. He stayed with the disciples in Damascus for several days. Right away, he began to preach about Jesus in the synagogues.

04:57.91
Nathan Pile
He is God's son, he declared.

05:05.42
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. But Kevin, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

05:18.43
Kevin Shock
I am Jesus whom you are harassing.

05:22.34
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

05:24.43
Kevin Shock
um That's it just sticks with me.

05:31.84
Kevin Shock
And for me highlights the unity that Jesus has between him and his people.

05:44.34
Kevin Shock
um you know there's I guess ah thinking of Matthew 25, you know, as as as you have done to one of the least of these, you have done also to me. Or as you have not done to one of the least of these, you have also not done it for me.

05:55.60
Nathan Pile
yeah

06:00.54
Kevin Shock
um Yeah. So I'm I'm sure that I'm I'm convinced that Saul slash Paul would never have even considered that he was doing anything harassing toward,

06:18.40
Kevin Shock
certainly not toward God.

06:20.91
Nathan Pile
Right.

06:21.31
Kevin Shock
um

06:22.03
Nathan Pile
He was keeping the faith.

06:24.26
Kevin Shock
Right, right, he right, right.

06:24.13
Nathan Pile
making sure people were faithful.

06:27.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he was ensuring the sanctity, the sanctity, have ah well I don't know whatever what ah what you want to call it, but sanctity, I think, is a good word of of the faith.

06:40.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. um

06:45.48
Kevin Shock
So anyway, that, yeah, I, it's kind of, if if you're if you're doing this to them, you're doing this to me.

06:53.16
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

06:53.64
Kevin Shock
That's what sticks with me. Yeah.

06:56.19
Nathan Pile
Yeah. The thing about, um, Saul slash Paul, um, because we don't hear it today, but he does, Saul's name does get changed to Paul and that would probably be where we're most familiar with him, um, is with that name, Paul.

07:11.70
Nathan Pile
Um, But I think as a Lutheran Christian, I've always, I've grown up in our history of of Martin Luther and the great reformers and and catechism and putting faith language um into the hands of parents to teach their kids and that that idea of the right translation getting a better translation that can be in the language of the people all of those things are a part of our tradition and our history but I also think sometimes it creeps in to give us a little bit of Saul's characteristics of our theology is better than your theology um

07:56.45
Nathan Pile
And so I've, um, as I've, as I've become a pastor, as I went to seminary and my time afterwards, the story of Saul is always a reminder to me when I think I have it right, I probably have it wrong.

08:13.90
Nathan Pile
So, uh, and, and that idea that I'm harassing Jesus in the same, in the same ways, um,

08:14.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

08:25.72
Nathan Pile
that, um, the ever confident Saul was, um, was doing so. Yeah. Um,

08:37.64
Kevin Shock
What about you, Nathan? What word phrase or image?

08:40.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I, um, actually got stuck right at the very beginning, um, in the end of verse one, the beginning of verse two, when Saul went to the high priest seeking letters to the synagogues in Damascus, um,

08:56.40
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

08:57.56
Nathan Pile
And, um and then of course I, I was had to read it for everybody, but then I wanted to go back and reread it. So I did that while you were first starting to respond. Um, because it, it feels like this is the high priest of Damascus. Do you read that the same way?

09:18.29
Kevin Shock
um that Saul is or no.

09:22.41
Nathan Pile
No, that Saul went to the high priest and that the high priest is from Damascus.

09:32.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um

09:35.44
Kevin Shock
No, no, I, I read it as um that he is getting from the high priest in Jerusalem

09:45.45
Nathan Pile
Okay.

09:45.96
Kevin Shock
like letters of authority to take to the synagogues in Damascus um so that he could kind of have the authority of the high priest to turn people over if they were following the way.

10:01.53
Nathan Pile
right. Well, that's better than where I was. I was like, boy, I, I'm learning something about Jewish, early Jewish culture

10:08.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

10:11.71
Nathan Pile
in in this area. If there's a high priest in Damascus, because I was like, I think of the high priest as the person at the temple.

10:16.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no, I, um

10:19.17
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

10:20.72
Kevin Shock
yeah, yeah, yeah. the The very end of verse two there, um these letters would authorize him to take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

10:30.07
Nathan Pile
and Okay. All right. Because I was like, boy, I thought I had a better understanding of the history of this than that this person.

10:37.37
Kevin Shock
You, you do.

10:43.11
Nathan Pile
And some of it is probably the translation here that we're reading and not the... um because we are reading the Common English english bible Bible, and I didn't look at it in any other translation.

10:54.02
Nathan Pile
um But I thought, boy, that, so it did it did get me thinking about, well, is he, is he talking, is there a high priest in Damascus that's giving him permission to do this? But really, it's the high priest in Jerusalem that's giving him permission when he's in Damascus.

11:08.71
Nathan Pile
If there's somebody in the synagogues talking about the way, they can be hauled back to Jerusalem as a prisoner.

11:16.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

11:16.41
Nathan Pile
So um that makes that makes much more sense. So, all right. and So that was just it for me. The the high priest of Damascus was where I kind of got ah got lost in um trying to re-understand that.

11:38.53
Nathan Pile
But again, this is a story that I... I don't know why i like it. I just like it.

11:46.21
Nathan Pile
Well, I know why I like it. I guess I like it for a couple of reasons and we'll get to that probably in this.

11:49.16
Kevin Shock
Why do you like it? Talk about why you like it.

11:50.36
Nathan Pile
We'll get to it in the second. We'll get to it in the second. We'll get to it in the second question.

11:53.63
Kevin Shock
Okay. All right.

11:54.24
Nathan Pile
So I will.

11:55.62
Kevin Shock
All right. You want me to go ahead and read it a second time?

11:57.35
Nathan Pile
Yeah, let's do it a second time.

11:59.54
Kevin Shock
All right. meanwhile Sa- Saul was still spewing out murderous threats against the lord's disciples he went to the high priest seeking letters to the synagogues in Damascus if he found persons who belong to the way whether men or women these letters would authorize him to take them as prisoners to Jerusalem during the journey as he approached Damascus suddenly a light from heaven encircled him he fell to the ground and heard a voice asking him Saul Saul why are you harassing me Saul asked who are you lord I am Jesus whom you are harassing came the reply now get up and enter the city you will be told what you must do

12:36.40
Kevin Shock
Those traveling with him stood there speechless. They heard the voice but saw no one. After they picked Saul up from the ground, he opened his eyes but he couldn't see. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.

12:48.14
Kevin Shock
For three days he was blind and neither ate nor drank anything. In Damascus there was a certain disciple named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision, Ananias. He answered, Yes, Lord.

13:00.04
Kevin Shock
The Lord instructed him, go to Judas's house on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying. In a vision, he has seen a man named Ananias enter and put his hands on him to restore his sight.

13:13.20
Kevin Shock
Ananias countered, Lord, I've heard many reports about this man. People say he has done horrible things to your holy people in Jerusalem. He's here with authority from the chief priest to arrest everyone who calls on your name.

13:25.88
Kevin Shock
The Lord replied, go This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before Gentiles, kings, and Israelites. I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.

13:38.75
Kevin Shock
Ananias went to the house. He placed his hands on Saul and said, Brother Saul, the Lord sent me, Jesus, who appeared to you on the way as you were coming here. He sent me so that you could see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

13:52.41
Kevin Shock
Instantly flakes fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. He got up and was baptized. After eating, he regained his strength. He stayed with the disciples in Damascus for several days.

14:04.40
Kevin Shock
Right away, he began to preach about Jesus in the synagogues. He is God's son, he declared.

14:11.51
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

14:15.03
Nathan Pile
Um, so I told you, I, this is, uh, one of the stories that of, from acts that I, um, have long appreciated and deeply love.

14:26.15
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and, and it's probably, i don't know, three or four parts why I love it.

14:26.43
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

14:32.49
Nathan Pile
So one is that Paul is shortly after Jesus. So again, we don't have an exact calendar of how all this plays out or when it exactly plays out, but Roughly speaking, Jesus' is is um Jesus is death is somewhere between 30 and 33 CE, common era.

14:55.87
Nathan Pile
Paul shows up on the scene, you know, somewhere maybe in the 40s, we're getting his letters. So he's been around. Um...

15:05.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he's already been around at that point.

15:06.95
Nathan Pile
yeah Yeah, he's been around for 10 years or a couple of years, and he's trying to make a name for himself.

15:07.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:12.56
Nathan Pile
um And the people of the way, we hear in the second verse, ah have they're they're already the disciples have already made an impact. Jesus makes an impact in his ministry, and Christ's death and resurrection has made an impact in the disciples in a big way, so much so that there they're the people of the way.

15:35.13
Nathan Pile
Like it's already established in the time of, of this writing of the, of acts.

15:36.70
Kevin Shock
Right.

15:42.29
Nathan Pile
And Paul is working against the people of the way. Right.

15:45.84
Kevin Shock
right

15:46.25
Nathan Pile
um And so there's a piece for my history part kind of that makes my heart sing. I like, ah I like to know that, that from the very beginning, these disciples who were scared and locked in a room are changing the world. Like like they've, they've,

16:02.91
Nathan Pile
the the Easter resurrection, the good news of of new life has sparked in them new life. so um So I love that.

16:13.09
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

16:14.63
Nathan Pile
And then it gets played out in two people, both Saul and Ananias in this passage, which are um for different reasons. Saul is confused or lost, you might say, and Ananias is afraid.

16:32.07
Nathan Pile
And both of them are, which are things that I can feel as a disciple of Christ today, 2025.

16:39.86
Nathan Pile
twenty twenty five I can be lost and confused and I can be afraid. And I have a witness of individuals who have come before me that have

16:54.47
Nathan Pile
have been inspired by God, by the gift of the Spirit, to be something else, um, then confused and afraid.

17:06.75
Nathan Pile
Um, and so the, the, like, that's all, that's all in this passage. And so that's for me, but that gets wrapped up in what I feel called to. And so the, this piece of recognizing being on the way means to do these simple proclamations.

17:26.77
Nathan Pile
It's not that Ananias does something earth-shattering for Saul, and it's not that Saul's first proclamation, even though it does Jesus has got big plans for Saul, we're told in this passage, Saul's not...

17:33.48
Kevin Shock
here

17:46.91
Nathan Pile
um His first speech isn't a big speech. his spurs His first speech is that Jesus is God's son. That's it.

17:57.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

17:57.82
Nathan Pile
Pretty simple. Like, boy, yeah I could say that. I could proclaim that.

18:02.50
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

18:02.83
Nathan Pile
um So, like, you know, I feel called to to be on the way. And in the midst of the way, God is going to find...

18:15.55
Nathan Pile
um experiences individuals to continue to help me along the way I guess is is is what i feel called toward in this in this um this scripture passage so yeah how about you what strikes you not what strikes you toward what is god calling you

18:38.37
Kevin Shock
um No. Yeah. ah I I think that, um I don't know, there's probably a lot. There's a lot in this reading. And actually, the reading as we read it is 20 verses, but the...

18:55.32
Kevin Shock
the the appointed text is those the last 14 verses of it are optional. So you can just read verses one through six. But that doesn't give you anything about Ananias what happens in Damascus or anything like that.

19:09.98
Kevin Shock
So um I think that I'm going to go with my gut feeling here.

19:09.71
Nathan Pile
Right, right.

19:17.58
Kevin Shock
And that is to not um not make assumptions of people based on ah rumors or gossip.

19:31.47
Kevin Shock
I don't know. ah Well, yeah, I don't I don't know. It's hard for me to say. I appreciate that Ananias, maybe I should say this, to let to let the voice of God override the voices of um of people who might be, you know,

19:53.29
Kevin Shock
spreading spreading rumors or or giving news about what other people are doing uh I I appreciate here that ananias just owns up to um

19:53.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

19:58.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah

20:07.79
Kevin Shock
you know ah we've we've been hearing bad things about this guy and and then um but then god you know the lord says to him uh

20:11.29
Nathan Pile
Right.

20:22.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but trust me on this one. i have i have more and I have more in line for this. I think that there are yeah Yeah, I don't know how to know how little to say it exactly.

20:35.27
Kevin Shock
Because I think that... I think if we're think if we're hearing things about people that are bad and it's confirming our suspicions about them, then maybe ah maybe it's a good gut feeling to follow that. But I think of all of the

20:53.56
Kevin Shock
um I think of all of the assumptions that I see other people operating on that are not necessarily true for people. And they're mistreating people or or not welc- not welcoming them in Jesus's name based on something that they've heard or something that they've assumed.

21:12.95
Kevin Shock
And I think I think it's good to remain open to but how God is calling us to interact with people especially people that may not have a great reputation or, yeah.

21:32.33
Kevin Shock
I don't know. ah Yeah. I don't know if I'm, I think I'm still processing but what I'm thinking here. Exactly. I appreciate, I appreciate that.

21:40.35
Nathan Pile
Sure. ah But there's there's an openness. There's an openness. Yeah.

21:44.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the openness that is there because of what God is saying, not what, not what the people are saying.

21:48.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

21:51.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

21:52.13
Kevin Shock
And I think that that's important.

21:55.90
Nathan Pile
Yeah

21:57.37
Kevin Shock
yeah

22:00.83
Nathan Pile
and And I think

22:08.41
Nathan Pile
there's a

22:11.48
Nathan Pile
There's a piece of both Paul and Ananias for us of being able to listen for the voice of God. um To be the voice of Jesus in our world.

22:24.09
Nathan Pile
um That reminds me that is also a part of our discipline.

22:33.16
Nathan Pile
um

22:36.68
Nathan Pile
As a disciple is is that we're listening for that voice. and And here you have essentially ah an what at least to the the apostles of Jesus would have been an enemy um of theirs, but also has the spiritual practices of being able to listen for for God.

22:59.97
Kevin Shock
Sure.

23:07.84
Nathan Pile
Now, some would say, well, a blinding light would cause you to, you know, would cause any of us to stop and listen, um, or not being able to see for three days, um, would cause any of us to stop and listen.

23:15.86
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

23:21.22
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

23:24.55
Kevin Shock
Or, yeah, or having...

23:24.49
Nathan Pile
Um,

23:27.32
Kevin Shock
the the voice of the Lord clearly come to you. I mean, yeah.

23:30.41
Nathan Pile
right, right. Um, And yet we we can tell ourselves all kinds of stories. I'll just say that. As a person who had a heart attack three years ago, you know, three years removed, I'm not as good. Like when I came out of my time in the hospital, I was like, okay, I'm going to...

23:49.74
Nathan Pile
lose a couple of pounds. I'm going to do all these things. Three years later, I haven't done any of those things. Um, like, so they're like as human beings, it's, it's very easy for us to convince ourselves otherwise, or to move past best intentions.

23:59.51
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

24:08.78
Nathan Pile
Um, And that's not, again, what we see um as a part of the witness of Ananias or Paul.

24:19.58
Nathan Pile
they they One or the other, or both, could have justified

24:27.60
Nathan Pile
no any of their worst thoughts and and not heard the voice of Jesus.

24:34.85
Kevin Shock
Sure. Sure.

24:35.22
Nathan Pile
But there was still a discipline enough for them, ah practice enough, a spiritual practice enough that causes them to stop and listen. um

24:46.41
Nathan Pile
that

24:50.32
Nathan Pile
That reminds me that I also need to be able to be practicing that in my own life. so that you know Because I do believe God is still talking. God is still speaking into the world.

25:00.15
Kevin Shock
sure

25:02.82
Nathan Pile
And so, yeah.

25:07.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I um I mean, I guess for me, part of it is it it's easy. Maybe it's easy for us to once once we get farther removed from,

25:21.01
Kevin Shock
ah you know, like like the big event. then work just kind of, or not work. i don't know, you know why I said work. Gosh, life kind of goes back to quote unquote normal.

25:36.77
Kevin Shock
And, um you know, how many of us were going to make big changes coming out of COVID? And, and I'm, you know, um but, but also I think that we've had, maybe some of us have had experiences that were,

25:42.41
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yep.

25:55.54
Kevin Shock
completely life-changing. Like there are things about our lives that have been altered because of something we've experienced, be it good or bad.

26:02.64
Nathan Pile
Yep.

26:04.73
Kevin Shock
um But I think of I think of Saul in this situation, ah he has the big the big conversion moment, um but then right out of the gate, he is altering the work that he's been doing.

26:25.24
Kevin Shock
and And maybe that just becomes his new habit, so to speak.

26:26.78
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

26:29.93
Nathan Pile
yeah

26:30.49
Kevin Shock
um and And I think that that probably has been the case for some of us too, if we really look back on our lives. um

26:40.87
Kevin Shock
But I think it takes something that is dramatic and urgent that is always, I guess maybe that's always right before us too, to to to make us,

26:52.39
Kevin Shock
go in that new direction or, you know, have our life path altered entirely. Yeah.

27:03.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So anyway, um, you want to look at it, uh, one more time.

27:08.09
Nathan Pile
Let's do it one more time.

27:09.75
Kevin Shock
Okay.

27:10.52
Nathan Pile
Third time through. Meanwhile, Saul was still spewing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples.

27:27.82
Nathan Pile
He went to the high priest seeking letters to the synagogues in Damascus. If he found persons who belonged to the way, whether men and women men or women, these letters would authorize him to take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

27:46.36
Nathan Pile
During the journey, as he approached Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven encircled him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice asking him, Saul, Saul, why are you harassing me?

27:58.73
Nathan Pile
Saul asked, Who are you, Lord? I am Jesus, whom you are harassing, came the reply. Now get up and enter the city. You will be told what you must do.

28:12.96
Nathan Pile
Those traveling with him stood there speechless. They heard the voice, but saw no one. After they picked Abraham, Saul up from the ground.

28:24.32
Nathan Pile
He opened his eyes, but he couldn't see. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind and neither ate nor drank it anything. In Damascus there was a certain disciple named Ananias.

28:39.54
Nathan Pile
The Lord spoke to him in a vision. Ananias? He answered, Yes, Lord. The Lord instructed him, Go to Judas' house on Straight Street.

28:51.53
Nathan Pile
and asked for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying. In a vision, he has seen a man named Ananias enter and put his hands on him to restore his sight.

29:05.16
Nathan Pile
Ananias countered, Lord, I have heard many reports about this man. People say that he has done horrible things to your holy people in Jerusalem. He's here with authority from the chief priests to arrest everyone who calls on your name.

29:21.80
Nathan Pile
The Lord replied, go. This man is the agent I have chosen to carry my name before the Gentiles, kings, and Israelites. I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.

29:37.98
Nathan Pile
And Ananias went to the house. He placed his hands on Saul and said, Brother Saul, the Lord sent me, Jesus, who appeared to you on the way as you were coming here.

29:50.19
Nathan Pile
He sent me so that you could see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Instantly, flakes fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. He got up and was baptized.

30:02.27
Nathan Pile
After eating, he regained his strength. He stayed with the disciples in Damascus for several days. Right away, he began to preach about Jesus in the synagogues.

30:14.68
Nathan Pile
He is God's son, he declared.

30:20.19
Nathan Pile
Kevin, what will you declare about Jesus?

30:24.67
Kevin Shock
um

30:28.38
Kevin Shock
I appreciate that what Saul declares is that Jesus is God's son. I think that that doesn't have as much bearing in our world today as it did back then.

30:39.80
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

30:41.86
Kevin Shock
I mean, of course, this is a particular context that that is being talked about here. um But... um

30:52.60
Kevin Shock
I don't know exactly. I'm trying to think of something as, as compact as what Saul said. um And I, want ah like, I keep going back to language in my own life of Jesus is the way.

31:08.99
Kevin Shock
And I don't know that like that also doesn't really explain a lot. um um But I'm thinking more of Jesus is the way Yeah.

31:23.40
Kevin Shock
or Jesus is the way forward. um

31:27.09
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

31:30.71
Kevin Shock
ah But again, that you can't you can't just proclaim that. It has to be lived. And, because I don't think that it, ah ah I think, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, what I'm about to say really causes me pain.

31:38.25
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

31:47.94
Kevin Shock
um The name of Jesus carries a lot of baggage with it today.

31:52.98
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

31:54.41
Kevin Shock
um I mean, I'm sure it carried something with but something with it. ah You know, for Saul pre-conversion, it probably carried a lot of baggage too. um But ah I think of all of the baggage that the church collectively has put on Jesus Christ.

32:15.29
Kevin Shock
in the last 2000 years.

32:15.61
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

32:16.65
Kevin Shock
And I think that we need to, ah we, the church needs to unpack some of that baggage so that people can hear it again. Because I really do think that um when I say Jesus is the way,

32:31.37
Kevin Shock
You know, we spend a lot of time on this podcast, Nathan, talking about rebuilding community and ah and and social capital and, know, all of the ways that our society struggles right now.

32:44.65
Kevin Shock
I do I think that Jesus is the antidote for that. I really do. um and But I think the modifiers are Jesus as I understand him to be.

32:57.23
Kevin Shock
ah Jesus as the scriptures proclaim him to be, um and Jesus as he has lived out faithfully in the church and beyond, but also understanding that a lot of people do a lot of things in the name of Jesus that are not of him, I guess.

33:22.39
Kevin Shock
um

33:26.30
Kevin Shock
I I that phrase way out came to me because that is scriptural and I can't remember exactly where it is that it's the it's from the part of scripture that people often misquote as ah God won't give you more that you can handle.

33:41.37
Kevin Shock
um

33:41.33
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

33:43.07
Kevin Shock
ah But it but it's something close to that, which I. ah um

33:51.75
Kevin Shock
I'm just trying to look it up here quickly. um that do do to do First Corinthians, which would have been Paul, of course.

34:03.44
Kevin Shock
um Reading from the Common English Bible. No temptation has seized you that isn't common for people. Okay, that's different than God won't give you more than you can handle.

34:14.50
Kevin Shock
That's not, yeah. ah But God is faithful. He won't allow you well you, well, he won't allow you to be tempted beyond your abilities. But there is, is tempted.

34:24.70
Kevin Shock
and that's the God isn't giving you the temptation. God is protecting you against the temptation. I guess that's the that's the thing there.

34:30.60
Nathan Pile
Right. Hmm.

34:32.75
Kevin Shock
Instead, with the temptation, God will also supply a way out so that you will be able to endure it

34:42.73
Kevin Shock
um So it doesn't really fit to what I'm talking about. But I think of like like, I think we do succumb to temptation. We succumb to the temptation of wanting to do things our own way and continuing in a way that isn't healthy for us and all of that kind of stuff. And and god God supplies a way out.

35:04.07
Kevin Shock
So that not just so that we can endure it, but so that we can build community again and and live as the people that God wants us to be. not just for God's sake, but most certainly for our our sake, so we can be healthy community, supportive of one another, welcoming one another, ah picking one another up whenever we've fallen, you know all that kind of stuff.

35:30.59
Kevin Shock
Jesus Jesus is the way, the way out, the way forward. However, it's meaningful for you to hear it. so Before I ramble on too much longer, that's what I'm going with.

35:42.12
Nathan Pile
Well, and and you're your piece of that that that name of Jesus at times can have baggage. um i can i can say absolutely. I can remember as a parish pastor feeling like at times it was better to talk about God and not use Jesus's name because of some of that baggage.

36:10.49
Nathan Pile
But I think all of the things that you've just said is that we've done a bit of a disservice

36:18.92
Nathan Pile
to fellow disciples and others, at least I've done a a disservice to other disciples, by not helping to unpack whatever it is that I sensed was the problem with the name of Jesus

36:37.94
Nathan Pile
and help people to see that the limitations were ours and not Jesus's.

36:45.70
Kevin Shock
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

36:45.92
Nathan Pile
If that makes sense.

36:46.34
Kevin Shock
Mm.

36:47.48
Nathan Pile
um And so instead of, instead of doing that harder work, I just used the name of God. Hoping that it would get past whatever,

37:02.86
Nathan Pile
whatever I felt was the obstacle of using the name of Jesus. And maybe instead what I needed to do as ah as a leader in the church was to help people name their baggage about Jesus and help to help them reclaim that name of Jesus.

37:24.61
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

37:24.80
Nathan Pile
um

37:27.83
Nathan Pile
So that all of your comments have made me think, um think about that in those ways

37:37.35
Nathan Pile
um

37:41.24
Nathan Pile
of of of, you know, I and I guess an example in my head would be like, I can't be

37:57.58
Nathan Pile
as someone on the way, I shouldn't be about trying to market whatever name for God I think is the one that's most easy for people to connect to, but rather help people that struggle with and with their understanding of God or the obstacles that are in their way um with God or with Jesus or even the Holy Spirit, whatever, whatever might be the things that are the obstacles instead do that hard work of helping them unpack and reclaim, um,

38:42.36
Nathan Pile
what are, you know, what are God's, which would be the names of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Because we as human beings, absolutely, just like Saul has done,

38:57.21
Nathan Pile
um

39:00.34
Nathan Pile
we've we've we've added things to the baggage of who Jesus is. and And that is a human thing, not a God thing.

39:12.24
Nathan Pile
so So, no, I just appreciate what you your you're unpacking that a little bit for us. was helpful for me even thinking about it as a pastor in the church.

39:30.82
Kevin Shock
What about you?

39:34.22
Nathan Pile
um I think it goes back to these pieces of of

49:48.12
Nathan Pile
of a simple proclamation. And so um the things that that i um that i seek to declare about Jesus are things that that free us

40:08.17
Nathan Pile
from maybe the, again, the obstacles, the things that bind us up. Sometimes it's our theology. Sometimes it's, um

40:01.39
Nathan Pile
well, it's always our theology. I should say that um because theology is everything, right?

40:25.41
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

40:27.82
Nathan Pile
Theology is in everything. The way we look at the world, the way we interact with the world, all of that has to do with our,

40:38.14
Nathan Pile
our theology. um But in in my work to try and declare, or in my call um that I've received to to declare Jesus in the world, how can I help free people from the things that bind us up? And myself included in that.

41:01.33
Nathan Pile
um

41:03.40
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:04.49
Nathan Pile
And so sometimes it

41:09.26
Nathan Pile
sometimes it plays itself out in ways. um For instance, in this podcast, sometimes there's words in seminary that we, that Kevin, you and I learned to help us try to understand the mystery that is God.

41:25.90
Nathan Pile
And then we use those words in our sermons or in a conversation with a fellow disciple, an everyday Christian, And I can see in their face when I use a word that they don't, that has become an obstacle to them to to connect and to relate two to God or to Jesus.

41:45.41
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:50.27
Nathan Pile
And so how do I work at using language that helps them um create connection instead of um takes away from that connection.

42:07.55
Nathan Pile
Does that make sense?

42:09.92
Nathan Pile
um And so... You know, obviously when I'm working with kids at camp or doing a children's sermon at a church, I use a lot of physical objects because we're still trying to understand the, like as a kid, you don't understand the gray. Everything seems to be black and white to you, right?

42:31.48
Nathan Pile
And so we use we use certain, I use certain elements or objects to put in front of the kids to help them understand their relationship with God. um But that's in that context with kids.

42:46.74
Nathan Pile
As I deal with adults, I have to rethink about how I make that communication happen. um Because we have more complex minds, we can understand things, we understand the gray area a little bit more, not that we like it or even want to exist in it. We still want the black and white from when we were kids, right?

43:06.13
Nathan Pile
um I think is ah is ah as a pull for us as human beings. But as we get older, we realize everything can't be black and white. The world has some mystery to it. And I think God lives in the mystery.

43:19.42
Nathan Pile
And so how do we how can I still try use language that is simple enough to make the proclamation of who God is? So as you said, um you know Saul's statement is,

43:33.14
Nathan Pile
Jesus is God's son. He is God's son. your Your phrase of Jesus is the way out or that Jesus is the way forward.

43:44.26
Nathan Pile
How do we how do we work a little harder to to use language that helps liberate people in their relationship with Jesus instead of holding them...

43:58.67
Nathan Pile
um

44:02.41
Nathan Pile
confused, lost, um feeling like there's an obstacle between them and God and those kinds of things. So I think when this piece of your question, I want to be able to to declare Jesus in the simplest ways that I can,

44:21.74
Nathan Pile
recognizing that God is is mysterious and complex.

44:28.34
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

44:29.25
Nathan Pile
you know And so recognizing, again, I'm not going to do it perfectly, i'm gonna but to try and be listening to the person that I'm with or the people that I'm with and helping them better understand um this God who loves us and seeks for us to have abundant life.

44:49.41
Nathan Pile
um How do I help people see that God?

44:55.95
Nathan Pile
Or hear that God um from my words.

44:58.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

45:03.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think that that's, um i I don't know, the more that I think about Saul's proclamation, Jesus as God's son, that would have been code for the people of the way, I think, um to know that he was now part of them.

45:14.18
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

45:18.23
Kevin Shock
ah ah But I think it also would have... it it would ah it would have begged some unpacking for people in the synagogues there. I mean, ah maybe maybe the way had been active in the synagogues for a while.

45:32.49
Kevin Shock
I mean, he must have been headed there for good reason, you know, under suspicion, you know, but with suspicion that there were people there who were not upholding the law as he understood it, but following this Jesus.

45:36.33
Nathan Pile
Yeah, sure.

45:45.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

45:46.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

45:48.48
Kevin Shock
So yeah that could have been a very simple instruction, you know, or a very simple declaration to let those people know, hey, I've seen the light, so to speak, and I'm i'm a part of you now.

46:03.19
Kevin Shock
ah But that, I don't I don't think that that, 2,000 years removed, I don't think that that declaration is as simple. um Because I think that there are a lot of people who perhaps already have that understanding, but also are, have been hurt by Jesus's people or, um, or have, have seen the kind of the, uh, disconnect between the, the historical Jesus, the Jesus of scripture and the Jesus that is proclaimed in churches.

46:41.15
Kevin Shock
um

46:43.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so I just think that there's some unpacking to be done. But as even as that comes out of my mouth, I think to myself, the unpacking may not be the most important thing. The most important thing may be that we we love people well. and And that that love will go farther in showing them Jesus than any teaching we could do.

47:16.00
Nathan Pile
it will It will at least

47:20.13
Nathan Pile
um

47:23.34
Nathan Pile
make the soil richer for planting the seeds that we might want to plant.

47:28.34
Kevin Shock
That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

47:33.61
Kevin Shock
yeah we We, we get so hung up, not just in the church, in our, in political life too, ah with doctrine or policy or a platform, um, that, you know, if you don't, if you don't believe this, then you're not part of who we are.

47:34.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

47:54.24
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

47:55.01
Kevin Shock
And, uh,

47:58.30
Kevin Shock
I don't, yeah, I just don't, I don't think that that's, I think Jesus shows us a different way to live.

48:05.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

48:14.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, any other thoughts, Nathan?

48:18.92
Nathan Pile
I don't think so.

48:21.51
Kevin Shock
Keep it simple.

48:21.64
Nathan Pile
I appreciate. Yeah.

48:25.00
Kevin Shock
All right. Well, some additional text.

48:26.25
Nathan Pile
yeah But but but even even keeping it simple, sometimes the, the as you've articulated,

48:41.47
Nathan Pile
the the the answer is simple, but how we get to the answer may not be simple.

48:47.85
Nathan Pile
If you're unpacking, like, the your answer here has been to unpack the name of Jesus. But for some individuals, that's not going to be a simple process.

48:59.23
Kevin Shock
Right, that's right.

49:01.10
Nathan Pile
And so um being able to put the labor in um or the thought or the conversations and the emotional bandwidth that it takes to,

49:15.97
Nathan Pile
to to as you said, you know sometimes we've been in the name of Jesus, we've hurt other people.

49:23.04
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

49:23.78
Nathan Pile
And so those others might have to be able to emotionally, they have to go back to that place where they were hurt to be able to name that feeling.

49:36.77
Nathan Pile
And then as we love them, as we care for them, um

49:45.89
Nathan Pile
you know, there's

49:49.71
Nathan Pile
You know, patience, empathy, things that we have to be ah willing to share with them to help them know that they are loved and can experience that because they didn't experience it 30 years ago.

50:05.20
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

50:05.52
Nathan Pile
And that 30 years, those emotions have been packed into their invisible suitcase and they've carried it around. And so it's intertwined in their life in so many ways.

50:17.34
Nathan Pile
That hurt is so intertwined in so many ways that it takes time to go back through and begin to

50:26.20
Nathan Pile
um

50:29.13
Nathan Pile
ah tend their spirit in such a way that they might experience what was intended to be the love of Christ, but didn't come off that way because we we imperfect human beings said or did something that that didn't allow that person to feel that love.

50:31.20
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

50:53.36
Nathan Pile
So I think you're right. love Practicing love

50:58.84
Nathan Pile
needs to be the first thing when there's when there's baggage involved with that name of Jesus or the name of God. Our first steps, um our first declaration has to be love so that they can feel that. But then we have to show it to them.

51:18.35
Nathan Pile
And because they're hurt, it can take years of loving to be able to help them.

51:25.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah. but Yeah. yeah Yeah.

51:27.01
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

51:27.89
Kevin Shock
It, yeah, it is not, it is not quick work.

51:28.05
Nathan Pile
No.

51:30.37
Kevin Shock
That's for sure.

51:31.01
Nathan Pile
Nuh-uh.

51:31.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

51:32.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

51:32.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And, uh, and I also think that, um,

51:41.88
Kevin Shock
I think we make the mistake of of assuming it is quick work, but, um, you know, congregations, uh,

51:52.72
Kevin Shock
congregations do a lot of asking the question, like, why, why don't these people come to church anymore?

52:00.12
Kevin Shock
but And, and the, you know, as you and I have said so many times on this podcast, the, uh, The formula is easy, but the practice is hard or something along those lines.

52:14.25
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yep.

52:14.71
Kevin Shock
And um yeah, if you're if you're concerned about the people who haven't been coming to church, well, the first thing you have to do is reach out to them.

52:14.84
Nathan Pile
yeah

52:23.50
Kevin Shock
And then you have to be in relationship with them for years. and And it may actually, and i don't know, that may actually result in us being the church the way that the church is intended to be and not just the church that we want it to be.

52:40.12
Kevin Shock
um because I think also behind that that um ah question of why why don't these people come to church anymore is also why aren't they giving us their money?

52:55.50
Kevin Shock
you know, it's it's because of them that we're going to have to close our doors or it's because of them we're struggling.

52:55.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

53:01.13
Kevin Shock
um No, it's because of us that we're struggling. that's the That's the reality.

53:08.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um This afternoon I'm going to have conversation with somebody. I'm not exactly sure that, uh, I don't, know I don't know exactly what we're going to talk about, but I think we're going to, I think we're going to end up talking about the future of the church and not just, not just this person's congregation. This is a lay person.

53:27.86
Kevin Shock
Uh, but maybe the future of congregations all throughout a particular area. And, uh, And he said, I just want to, when he asked me if I would meet with him, he said, I just want an hour of your time to have some candid conversation.

53:41.69
Kevin Shock
And my response was, Scott, I love to have candid conversation. It's true because, because there are times when, and, and, you know, and, and I think a person who's asking for candid conversation actually wants it.

53:50.46
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

53:58.20
Kevin Shock
I think there are,

53:58.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

54:00.59
Kevin Shock
There are, you know, this, this is this feels like on a way different part of the spectrum to me, this, this request, then the question of our church is dying. What are you going to do about it?

54:13.59
Nathan Pile
yeah

54:14.69
Kevin Shock
I, if it were, if it were within my power to change hearts and minds, I would do it.

54:21.86
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

54:23.46
Kevin Shock
But there's only one who has that power and it is, uh, maybe Well, that's a good declaration too, Nathan. Jesus has the ability to change hearts and minds.

54:34.48
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

54:35.09
Kevin Shock
That's, oh man, and so that's a great declaration about who Jesus is.

54:39.57
Nathan Pile
yeah

54:40.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. that's I also um I love that language from the how the Common English Bible translates um what we commonly know as repentance.

54:52.92
Kevin Shock
And that is change hearts and minds. I think it's great.

54:54.86
Nathan Pile
Change hearts and minds. Yeah.

54:56.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, well, thanks for the discussion. Anything else?

55:02.04
Nathan Pile
No, no, that's all I got.

55:03.47
Kevin Shock
Okay. All right. Well that now additional texts, uh, for this week, the third Sunday of Easter. Um, wait, this is the third, right? Yeah. Yes.

55:15.09
Kevin Shock
I think I'm, I, ah whatever, you know, whenever you're listening to this, it's for the upcoming Sunday.

55:19.36
Nathan Pile
This, this will be. Yes, you're correct. I'm looking at the date on this sheet and I don't think it's right.

55:28.81
Kevin Shock
no it was just looking at the date myself here I'm going to change the date on the sheet to what I think is correct and yes that's that's where we should be yeah

55:28.67
Nathan Pile
um

55:34.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:36.42
Nathan Pile
So, yes, this would be the third. This would be the third, third week of Easter.

55:41.44
Kevin Shock
okay so anyway um the additional text psalm 30 you have turned my wailing into dancing oh what a great really great phrase.

55:50.47
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

55:51.07
Kevin Shock
um Revelation 5 verses 11 through 14, the song of the living creatures to the Lamb. And ah John 21 verses 1 through 19, Jesus appears to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.

56:08.43
Kevin Shock
So as always, friends, we ah would love to hear your reflections on this text or things we discuss in this podcast. And and we will, ah in in any case, continue to reflect with one another on this because it feeds us ah to have these discussions with one another.

56:26.08
Kevin Shock
So we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

56:29.61
Nathan Pile
And peace.