Episode 30: Acts 11:1-18

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How can we achieve unity in the church?

Additional texts:

Psalm 148

Revelation 21:1-6

John 13:31-35

Transcript

00:00:02.43
Kevin Shock
Tend nation, we are back.

00:00:06.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:00:07.51
Kevin Shock
No, that's good, Nathan. Thanks.

00:00:09.14
Nathan Pile
yeah you're welcome.

00:00:09.20
Kevin Shock
um I really just, I was so eager. Nathan is always the one who uses the phrase ten nation. So I was eager to use this and really impress him slash butter him up um by using his phrase.

00:00:24.13
Kevin Shock
I don't know why I'm buttering you up.

00:00:24.90
Nathan Pile
What are you buttering me up for?

00:00:25.57
Kevin Shock
I just, nothing, nothing, nothing actually.

00:00:26.84
Nathan Pile
Everybody that's listening right now is like, what is Kevin going to ask Nathan today?

00:00:31.48
Kevin Shock
I'm actually not going to ask you anything.

00:00:31.48
Nathan Pile
Like, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm on the edge of my seat wondering what you're going to ask me now, too.

00:00:34.22
Kevin Shock
No. No. No.

00:00:36.78
Nathan Pile
ah So everybody listen for the next full hour because Kevin will probably drop it somewhere at the last 90% of the podcast.

00:00:37.83
Kevin Shock
ah um i'm no no

00:00:44.55
Nathan Pile
But it sounds like it's going to be exciting.

00:00:45.36
Kevin Shock
no no i'm No, I'm not. um' I'm just paying homage to you. That's all I mean. I'm not buttering you up for anything. i'm Yeah, that's all. um No, but I i was a mindful of Nathan's phrase that I rolled my eyes at to begin with, 10 Nation, because I've been bumping into 10 Nation out in ah the real world or IRL, as like as the kids say.

00:01:09.22
Kevin Shock
um And

00:01:12.91
Nathan Pile
I was just going to ask you, what does IRL mean? But I I got it.

00:01:15.13
Kevin Shock
in real life.

00:01:16.60
Nathan Pile
I got it.

00:01:16.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:01:17.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah, thanks.

00:01:17.21
Kevin Shock
Okay. um But yeah, I'd like to just say ah hello and thank you to ah both Marlon and Samantha, who were part of our Bonhoeffer study, who both said things to me in the past few days about um how much they appreciated being a part of that. um I became ah aware of a new listener, Olivia. So hi, Olivia.

00:01:40.85
Kevin Shock
Glad you're listening.

00:01:42.10
Nathan Pile
Ooooh, way to

00:01:42.10
Kevin Shock
And this is a really, this is a hopeful hello. But if anybody from the St. Paul's Lutheran Mundys Corner confirmation class is listening, we're so glad you're listening to us.

00:01:56.04
Nathan Pile
go.

00:01:56.33
Kevin Shock
You're probably our youngest listener,

00:01:59.18
Kevin Shock
listeners um I was talking to one of their ah one of their teachers, Vicar Jen, ah yesterday, and she said that she mentioned the podcast to the class because part of the reason was

00:02:00.02
Nathan Pile
way to go

00:02:11.83
Kevin Shock
because they are um planning on perhaps doing the sermon slash reflection for ah Pentecost Saturday and Sunday where they will be confirmed.

00:02:25.43
Nathan Pile
Ooh, that would be good.

00:02:25.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:02:26.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

00:02:27.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So I hope if you.

00:02:29.24
Nathan Pile
Young Preachers. That's great. That's fantastic. I love it.

00:02:31.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And so she and I talked last night about a couple of ideas, how, you know, how they might have some prompts to help them do that. But, um, if you're listening class members, um, then we're glad that you're listening and we hope that this helps.

00:02:51.15
Nathan Pile
yeah.

00:02:51.75
Kevin Shock
So, all right, well, this is not, we're not to Pentecost yet, but, um, uh, we are still, I'm apparently obsessed with the book of acts this Easter season.

00:03:04.91
Nathan Pile
I did notice that we were doing it again.

00:03:05.32
Kevin Shock
Cause I think,

00:03:06.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:03:07.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah, this this, I think, is the third episode in a row um when I have chosen Acts.

00:03:13.02
Kevin Shock
ah But it's not just because I want to talk about Acts. It's because I'm finding the readings particularly compelling this year. And I'm not sure why that is.

00:03:21.54
Nathan Pile
Oooo

00:03:23.76
Kevin Shock
um But anyway, we are reading Acts chapter 11, verses 1 through 18 from the Common English Bible, the CEB. That again, you can find it Bible gateway.com or on the Bible gateway app.

00:03:39.12
Kevin Shock
And we will be using three questions today. What word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text? And how can we achieve unity in the church?

00:03:56.96
Nathan Pile
Here's some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

00:04:09.71
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

00:04:24.86
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

00:04:33.72
Nathan Pile
Acts, the 11th chapter, verses 1 through 18.

00:04:39.28
Nathan Pile
The apostles and the brothers and sisters throughout Judea heard that even the Gentiles had welcomed God's word. When Peter went to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him.

00:04:53.03
Nathan Pile
They accused him, you went into the home of the uncircumcised and ate with them? Step by step, Peter explained what had happened. I was in the city of Joppa, praying when I had a visionary experience.

00:05:07.63
Nathan Pile
In my vision, I saw something like a large linen sheet being lowered from heaven by its four corners. It came all the way down to me.

00:05:18.70
Nathan Pile
As I stared at it, wondering what it was, I saw four-legged animals, including the wild beasts, as well as reptiles and wild birds.

00:05:30.84
Nathan Pile
I heard a voice say, Get up, Peter. Kill and eat. I responded, Absolutely not, Lord. Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.

00:05:42.22
Nathan Pile
The voice from heaven spoke a second time. Never consider unclean what God has made pure. This happened three times. Then everything was pulled back into heaven.

00:05:54.04
Nathan Pile
At that moment, three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were staying. The Spirit told me to go with them, even though they were Gentiles.

00:06:07.32
Nathan Pile
These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man, that man's house. he reported to us how he had seen an angel standing in his house and saying, Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is known as Peter.

00:06:23.68
Nathan Pile
He will tell you how you and your entire household can be saved.

00:06:28.88
Nathan Pile
When I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as the Spirit fell on us in the beginning. I remembered the Lord's words, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

00:06:42.11
Nathan Pile
If God gave them the same gift he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, then who am I? Could I stand in God's way? Once the apostles and other believers heard this, they calmed down.

00:06:55.16
Nathan Pile
They praised God and concluded, So then God has an enabled Gentiles to change their hearts and lives so that they might have new life.

00:07:09.21
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with a group, and you can cause pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. you can listen to Kevin here as he shares his reflection on what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text.

00:07:26.44
Nathan Pile
How are you going to pick one, Kevin?

00:07:31.85
Kevin Shock
Oh, I was muted there. um I Yeah, how do I pick one? I Well, I'll tell you what. There was one that was in my head um from reading it earlier, and I thought I was praying that the Spirit would lift up another one so I didn't have to say this one.

00:07:46.05
Kevin Shock
um They calmed down.

00:07:52.49
Kevin Shock
the-

00:07:53.00
Nathan Pile
So the spirit didn't bring you another word, huh?

00:07:55.26
Kevin Shock
No, apparently the Spirit wants me to see this one. They calmed down. um I I think one thing that compels me about this reading for this week is that this is change a couple of the defining details.

00:08:16.02
Kevin Shock
And this is the church today.

00:08:18.78
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:08:21.96
Kevin Shock
ah you know, it, it, it doesn't, it, we're talking about the the division between circumcised and uncircumcised believers here, ah Jews and Gentiles, ah people, people who are of the ah Jewish faith and people who are ah in the wider Greek, Greco Roman world.

00:08:44.21
Kevin Shock
um But this, this little phrase here, um once Peter was able to explain to them, what was going on, they calmed down.

00:08:58.37
Kevin Shock
And I think I've been fooled into believing that the reactivity in our society is a newer thing, but apparently it's not.

00:09:11.18
Kevin Shock
that This is ah the the only difference now, I think, is that we we hear rumors and gossip so much more

00:09:18.46
Nathan Pile
Thank you.

00:09:22.45
Kevin Shock
in greater mass because we have things like text messaging and in social media and, and, and reputable news sources and unreputable news sources, you know, all of this kind of stuff here.

00:09:38.82
Kevin Shock
So they had heard this, they had heard the rumor or the the news from other people and without having the whole story, they rushed to judgment about it.

00:09:50.09
Kevin Shock
and got all worked up about it. and And as soon as Peter showed up again in Jerusalem, they essentially attacked him.

00:09:59.04
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:09:59.08
Kevin Shock
um But once he was able to not even plead his case, just tell them, okay, and guys, this is what happened. Okay.

00:10:10.03
Kevin Shock
All right. They calmed down. And then not only did they calm down, then they praised god Immediately after they calmed down, then they praised God and concluded.

00:10:16.46
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:10:20.81
Kevin Shock
So, so then God is doing this for, you know, God is leading the Gentiles to repentance, just like, uh, just like God did for us. Yeah. Um,

00:10:33.56
Kevin Shock
Boy, that's there's something else in that quick change around too. They calmed down and then they praised God. um It seems that maybe praising God is a thing to do before we even get worked up.

00:10:44.76
Kevin Shock
But that sometimes getting worked up, that's our human reaction is to hear half of the story, get worked up about it, and then lose our focus on what God is doing.

00:10:57.68
Kevin Shock
So...

00:10:59.92
Nathan Pile
Yeah, that part of your reflection, I think, is speaks volumes for us of of how quickly we can get ourselves anxious, angry,

00:11:15.61
Nathan Pile
um unfocused, on the way. again, as you as you articulate, because we hear part of the story or or or, and maybe we hear the whole story, we still get ourselves worked up. And so like, what is it that somebody giving us context and time helps us to hear?

00:11:42.11
Nathan Pile
Oh, okay. that that That all makes sense. That's important.

00:11:45.54
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:11:45.82
Nathan Pile
Because he's not just telling the story. He's also teaching, right? he's He's making connections.

00:11:54.62
Nathan Pile
for the people in Jerusalem who see these people are just like us, right? Like that's a part of his explanation.

00:12:05.98
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, and so, so that idea of helping people to calm down, um,

00:12:14.64
Nathan Pile
yeah Yeah, I love the reflection I love and I love the connections that you see to today. Absolutely wrapped up in it.

00:12:28.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, so what about you? What are you hear in this reading?

00:12:32.19
Nathan Pile
I was up at the top part and and um and it's it it connects to what you're saying, but but it's funny to me.

00:12:43.90
Nathan Pile
that that we have circumcised believers and uncircumcised. like So another tendency of us ah us as human beings is we have we have to give each other names.

00:12:59.34
Nathan Pile
We have to make judgment about you

00:12:59.58
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:13:01.75
Nathan Pile
and what kind of a person or Christian you are. You're either a circumcised Christian or an uncircumcised Christian. um You know, you're an evangelical Christian or you're a mainline denomination Christian, you're you're a Catholic.

00:13:19.39
Nathan Pile
yeah So we we use these categories and terms and then we divide ourselves up by them and make assumptions about the people that are on the other side of the line.

00:13:31.14
Nathan Pile
Right. um And I talked about that significantly with our summer staff. And, and I know I've talked about it on the podcast. Anytime we draw a line in the sand, God's on the other side of the line.

00:13:43.33
Nathan Pile
When we're saying these people are in God's always going to be on the other side of the line. At least that's my belief in, in my understanding of what I read in all of scripture.

00:13:54.46
Nathan Pile
um That is, ah that's the tendency of who God is. to be, to be, to be on the outside of, of our group. Uh, if I'm saying this is the group is in now I I'm intending, you know, I may intend for Jesus to be in my group. That's why I'm drawing the so line in the sand.

00:14:11.50
Nathan Pile
However, Jesus is going to see me drawing the line in the sand and say, yeah, but I'm really over here with these people too. Um, and that's, what you know, uh, I think that I'm drawing a line and and putting myself in the group of people that I'm with, with Jesus.

00:14:26.21
Nathan Pile
Um, because like, this isn't very long after Jesus's light. Like we're already early in the church dividing ourselves up. um You know, and and it just keeps getting worse over the the years and the generations until you get to the 1500 you know, the Christian denomination becomes instead, you know, at a thousand, it becomes two groups, the Orthodox and and the Roman Catholic Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic about 1500.

00:14:55.98
Nathan Pile
It becomes the Protestant reformation. And that gives life to 40,000 different Christian denominations, you know, kind of thing.

00:15:07.43
Nathan Pile
So we just, we're really good at dividing ourselves up and, getting to the place.

00:15:09.34
Kevin Shock
Thank

00:15:12.17
Nathan Pile
And for whatever reason, again, Their argument here for circumcised and uncircumcised is that circumcised is obviously more right. right they They believe that their way of following Jesus is the more right way.

00:15:31.13
Nathan Pile
And that's why Peter's in trouble. um So it's just fascinating to me that that just a few years after Jesus is alive, the the church, even in its infancy,

00:15:43.92
Nathan Pile
has enough of a hierarchy that there's a group of people who call the apostle Peter, a person who walked with Jesus in to scold him for his behavior.

00:16:00.31
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:16:02.75
Nathan Pile
So it's just fascinating.

00:16:02.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:16:04.92
Nathan Pile
ah Human nature is fascinating um of how we can very quickly

00:16:05.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:08.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:13.67
Nathan Pile
think that this is exactly what should be... Well, we got to get Peter in here.

00:16:22.02
Nathan Pile
You know, we and, you know, the translation that Kevin and I are reading here has an exclamation point on that verse 3.

00:16:22.08
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:16:29.66
Nathan Pile
ah You went into the home of the uncircumcised and ate with them! Exclamation point. Now, again, we don't have that in the Greek.

00:16:35.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:37.94
Nathan Pile
We don't have... um

00:16:39.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:40.39
Nathan Pile
punctuation, but there's something about the language that's used by the translators that feels like that's what's being communicated here.

00:16:48.76
Kevin Shock
Right, right. So yeah, ah good go ahead. I don't yeah I don't want to cut you off or anything if you have more to say.

00:16:55.41
Nathan Pile
No, no, I'm I'm not like, so like, the,

00:17:00.75
Nathan Pile
you know Our desire as human beings for power, control, and and I would say a flaw for us as Lutheran Christians is that that desire for right theology, um correct theology, though the having the the the the most right, most excellent theology understanding of our relationship with God, thereby cross other people, you know, we we push other people to the outsides of our group.

00:17:33.93
Nathan Pile
If you believe what we believe, you're in here. But if you, if you don't, and as Lutheran Christians, um, one of our Achilles heel of seeking to understand God is that we get to a place sometimes in our theology and it comes across as we just, um,

00:17:53.70
Nathan Pile
We're more right than you are. So we have to do our own things. Which segregates us off from other other groups that probably believe much of what we believe.

00:18:06.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:18:08.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I think, I mean, I think we are more right than other people are. Um, a lot of times, um, it sounds, it sounds terrible to say no Um,

00:18:17.45
Nathan Pile
So I'm speaking to the choir.

00:18:22.52
Kevin Shock
But I do think, I think even if we think we are right, we close ourself off to other practices, branches of the Christian tradition that allow us to, that could offer gifts to us for how we might do things better. I mean, we certainly, ah we,

00:18:44.79
Kevin Shock
oh yeah I feel like you used the word right. And I think that was the correct word to use. I think that there is a constant balance in the life of faith for Christians, probably not just for Christians, but I can only speak from that perspective.

00:19:03.71
Kevin Shock
um Between there's a balance between being right and being faithful. And those two things are not the same thing.

00:19:11.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:19:13.50
Kevin Shock
Sometimes they run pretty in pretty close parallel, but I think a lot of times they do not run in close parallel.

00:19:14.18
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:19:22.55
Kevin Shock
And that it gets us into trouble. if If we are focused on being right, we are potentially not being faithful. And if we're not being faithful, then we're not living up to our calling as the people of God in Christ.

00:19:38.54
Kevin Shock
um I think ah just a little comment slash pushback on something you said, Nathan, you used the phrase more right. that the circumcised believed they were more right than the uncircumcised.

00:19:51.73
Kevin Shock
I think it was even harsher than that. it

00:19:54.15
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:19:54.78
Kevin Shock
the so The uncircumcised were not welcome in the community because they were not following the law. And we know that there was a struggle between people of the way who followed the law and people of the way who did not follow the law.

00:20:10.02
Kevin Shock
The thing that is, the thing that jumps out at me is that here we have there The problem that the the apostles in Jerusalem have with Peter, the chief apostle, which appreciate you pointing that out, that like this is the guy who was kind of put in charge of everything and now he's being yelled at by his by his compatriots.

00:20:36.96
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, I never really thought about it in that term before. But but I but maybe ah but honestly, based on...

00:20:41.83
Nathan Pile
Something. Yeah.

00:20:45.95
Kevin Shock
To go along with what I just said, maybe it's because Peter is realizing that it's time to move from right to faithful.

00:20:52.24
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:20:53.03
Kevin Shock
ah The right thing to do would have not gone to have not gone to Cornelius's household.

00:20:53.15
Nathan Pile
ah

00:21:01.30
Kevin Shock
but that wasn't the faithful thing to do because God was calling him there. God was not only was God calling him there through the request of other people, but God was also showing him that, uh, the things that you have thought to be unclean are clean to me.

00:21:19.23
Kevin Shock
And so they have to be clean to you too. Um, but what I was originally going to say is that the, the

00:21:28.68
Kevin Shock
charge here is not that Peter talked to them, not that Peter, um i mean, went into the house, yes, but the charge is that he shared table fellowship with them.

00:21:43.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:21:44.78
Kevin Shock
He ate with them.

00:21:45.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:46.42
Kevin Shock
And the thing that that perhaps rightly should draw us to, because this is the same author as the gospel according to Luke, that that's the exact criticism that the scribes and the Pharisees were, um announcing toward Jesus.

00:22:07.61
Kevin Shock
Who, who is this teacher that he eats with sinners and tax collectors?

00:22:13.40
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:22:14.91
Kevin Shock
So it's, I don't know if ironic is the right word, but it is ironic that now the, now the apostles who are pretty focused on being right, it seems are, um,

00:22:28.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah, are are acting the same way that the people that they were opposed to had been acting just a few, just a short period of time earlier.

00:22:43.34
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:22:43.79
Kevin Shock
We don't know how short, but within the last five years, you know, I mean, this is not, this is still, this is still recent memory. that they were being, that their teacher and they were being criticized for the very thing that they're now criticizing Peter for doing.

00:22:59.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:23:00.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:23:00.68
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:23:04.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's a rich text, buddy. See why you pick it.

00:23:07.92
Kevin Shock
It is. All right. Well, let's look at it a second time then, I suppose.

00:23:11.55
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:23:12.34
Kevin Shock
From Acts 11. The apostles and the brothers and sisters throughout Judea heard that even the Gentiles had welcomed God's word. When Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him.

00:23:24.75
Kevin Shock
They accused him. You went into the home of... like Oh, there it is. Okay. You went into the home of the uncircumcised and ate with them. Step by step, Peter explained what had happened. I was in the city of Joppa praying when I had a visionary experience.

00:23:38.78
Kevin Shock
In my vision, I saw something like a large linen sheet being lowered from heaven by its four corners. It came all the way down to me. As I stared at it, wondering what it was, I saw four-legged animals, including wild beasts, as well as reptiles and wild birds.

00:23:54.88
Kevin Shock
I heard a voice say, get up, Peter, kill and eat. I responded, absolutely not, Lord. Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth. The voice from heaven spoke a second time.

00:24:06.04
Kevin Shock
Never consider unclean what God has made pure. This happened three times, then everything was pulled back into heaven. At that moment, three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were staying.

00:24:19.38
Kevin Shock
The spirit told me to go with them, and even though even though they were Gentiles. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered that man's house. He reported to us how he had seen an angel standing in his house and saying, send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is known as Peter.

00:24:35.43
Kevin Shock
He will tell you how you and your entire household can be saved. When I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as the Spirit fell on us in the beginning. I remembered the Lord's words, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

00:24:51.88
Kevin Shock
If God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, then who am I? Could I stand in God's way? Once the apostles and other believers heard this, they calmed down.

00:25:02.91
Kevin Shock
They praised God and concluded, so then God has enabled Gentiles to change their hearts and lives. so that they might have new life.

00:25:13.39
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:25:17.95
Nathan Pile
um

00:25:20.99
Nathan Pile
So I heard it in a couple of different places in a couple of different ways. But I would my I would say, a) I don't want to be I don't want to get into and in the way of God. you know like I shouldn't be I shouldn't be an obstacle.

00:25:34.36
Nathan Pile
um And the way that I do that is that I'm open to invitation. I'm open to invitations both from God and from others. um That would be the succinctest so the succinct way that I would kind of summarize what I heard. Because I heard it up at the beginning.

00:25:54.42
Nathan Pile
um I heard it in um in the invitation for Peter to come and ah to be in the home. And then I even hear it.

00:26:06.34
Nathan Pile
there at the end, as he's talking, as he's explaining to the council in Jerusalem, like, who am I to get in the way? Who, who, who are we to get in the way here um of this?

00:26:17.59
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:26:20.08
Nathan Pile
And so that we can become obstacles, but I feel called to being open, being open to invitation that brings me, and in this case, it's around the table. and And you and I've talked about this idea of, of being around the table with others and what it,

00:26:36.05
Nathan Pile
the impact and the community that it builds in our lives. And so how might I be open

00:26:44.61
Nathan Pile
open to those invitations?

00:26:48.40
Nathan Pile
Even if it makes it it like even if i'm the invitation makes me question what others will say about me accepting the invitation, then even more so I need to be open to that and invitation.

00:27:07.14
Nathan Pile
What about you? what Toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:27:11.53
Kevin Shock
um I actually think calming down for one.

00:27:15.57
Nathan Pile
Hmm? Hmm.

00:27:17.13
Kevin Shock
and Someone said something to me at a meeting last night that um something about playing the long game. And it reminded me of the thing that you said that I don't know who it's attributed to. I don't know if it's you're quoting someone, but, and I couldn't can't even remember. Well, what's the, what's the quote that you say about the speed of relationship?

00:27:41.66
Nathan Pile
Works at trust, at the speed of trust.

00:27:41.78
Kevin Shock
That, oh, relationship works at the speed of trust.

00:27:47.35
Nathan Pile
Yep.

00:27:47.61
Kevin Shock
Okay. Well, I altered that then. Yeah. this because what I was thinking of is that ministry happens at the speed of relationship, which, um,

00:27:58.61
Nathan Pile
but That's the first part of it. That's the first part of it. Ministry works at the speed of relationship and and relationship works at the speed of trust.

00:28:03.34
Kevin Shock
Oh, okay. Okay. So I have heard that before. Okay. All right. That makes sense. Got it. Yeah. So that was what i that that was what, um, what that person who said about playing the long game in reference to a specific thing happening in the life of the church or,

00:28:21.68
Kevin Shock
Or rather, um it was someone talking to me about a congregation where it seems that a door has closed and this person's opinion is that the door has not closed completely.

00:28:32.45
Kevin Shock
And so he his he's playing the long game, um which I appreciate.

00:28:36.62
Nathan Pile
all right.

00:28:37.59
Kevin Shock
appreciate ah because he's in relationship with people there.

00:28:39.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:28:42.25
Nathan Pile
right

00:28:42.46
Kevin Shock
And... um So i think I think sometimes it's so easy for me to fall into the, like getting worked up about something that's happening in the church.

00:28:54.16
Kevin Shock
um And granted, there are probably things that i you know I could be justified in getting worked up about, but that this is, um if the church as I know it falls apart and burns to the ground before I die, it's not going to be the end of the church.

00:29:12.88
Kevin Shock
the church is going to continue long after I'm gone and Jesus will reign continually long after I'm gone.

00:29:22.20
Kevin Shock
Um, and so to get unnecessarily worked up about some of the changes, some of the, um, um, my, my perception of being unclean, you know, of, of people or groups that are, are,

00:29:42.97
Kevin Shock
quote unquote, unclean. um

00:29:47.87
Kevin Shock
God's going to figure out a way to work through this.

00:29:52.17
Nathan Pile
Yes.

00:29:53.05
Kevin Shock
God's going to figure out a way to make the church one as God is one. and um And I can get worked up about the fact that it's not happening at the speed I would like it to, but that doesn't, my getting worked up isn't going to do anything to change it.

00:30:08.53
Kevin Shock
Just like the apostles getting all worked up and twisted about Peter going into Cornelius's household and eating with them without knowing the full story doesn't act doesn't change anything about the story it already happened it already happened and so you can get worked up about it and yes you can try to censure peter you can kick him out of the fellowship you can do whatever you want to do with him but the spirit is going to continue to do what the spirit does

00:30:26.42
Nathan Pile
right

00:30:39.01
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah. If him showing up to Jerusalem is that the council says, Peter, you're out. Like that's, Peter's not done.

00:30:47.49
Kevin Shock
No, I mean, it didn't happen that way, but, but even if it would, Yeah.

00:30:49.31
Nathan Pile
It didn't happen that way. but But even if it would, it's it's it's not stopping Peter.

00:30:53.61
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:30:54.07
Nathan Pile
um Peter's connected to the ministry that God's called Peter to.

00:30:54.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:30:57.97
Nathan Pile
um

00:30:58.22
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:30:59.00
Nathan Pile
You know, it would be hard for any of us to say, no if you have... clear experiences with the holy that show you this is the way,

00:31:13.94
Nathan Pile
somebody calling you in and screaming at you is not going to cause you to change that.

00:31:20.08
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:31:20.65
Nathan Pile
At least I would hope not. At least I would hope it wouldn't.

00:31:25.10
Nathan Pile
So,

00:31:25.52
Kevin Shock
It certainly wouldn't. It wouldn't for me. um

00:31:28.87
Nathan Pile
right.

00:31:30.36
Kevin Shock
What it would change is my relationship to those people.

00:31:33.38
Nathan Pile
To absolutely will that community.

00:31:35.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:31:35.97
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:37.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. um ah There's something else on the tip of my brain and then it went away. Never mind.

00:31:49.44
Kevin Shock
Oh, what ah the other thing it made me think of was that in the book of Acts, and I can't remember off the top of my head exactly where it is, but but Peter and Paul have a sit down too and and come to an agreement that they don't, um their their brand of ministry and the ministry that they feel called to do is not for one another.

00:32:00.99
Nathan Pile
Yes, they do

00:32:13.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Oh.

00:32:14.78
Kevin Shock
and And so they come to terms with You go do your ministry. I'll go do my ministry. And we'll, the and that's, that's how we'll work.

00:32:27.75
Kevin Shock
um Which I think is a very mature way of doing ministry. They certainly, their ministry will have an effect on one another, but They recognize that they can be in disagreement about who they're supposed to go to and the method by which they do it um with while still recognizing that they're.

00:32:56.00
Kevin Shock
They have the same or a similar end goal in mind.

00:33:01.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:33:01.97
Kevin Shock
And that is to make. To make known that Jesus Christ is the son of God and he's the one who's come to save the world.

00:33:10.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:33:10.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

00:33:12.35
Nathan Pile
You don't have to do it like me and I don't have to do it like you.

00:33:15.12
Kevin Shock
Right, right, right. And that's, yes. And that is where we Lutherans and probably others too, get into problems is that um you do have to do it like us.

00:33:24.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:33:28.60
Kevin Shock
And, and I think that there's a, there is a,

00:33:34.31
Kevin Shock
I'm a very, I don't even know that this someone probably had a, came up with a phrase for this at some point, but I always, when I'm talking about what Lutheranism is to other people, ah a value of Lutheranism that's important to me is but open questions, that we don't have to have everything all figured out.

00:33:54.90
Kevin Shock
That was, you know, Martin Luther was the kind of person who liked to sit around and talk about stuff with people because he did not have a sense of certainty that he had everything figured out.

00:34:06.53
Nathan Pile
He had a lot of self-doubt.

00:34:07.00
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:34:08.15
Nathan Pile
A lot of temptation.

00:34:08.35
Kevin Shock
He had a lot of self-doubt. Yeah.

00:34:10.73
Nathan Pile
what He called it other things necessarily. He didn't always call it self-doubt, but he'd have called it, um like if you as you learn the history of of Martin Luther, he had a lot of, you know,

00:34:15.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:34:21.91
Nathan Pile
the devil was in there a lot for him of, of tempting him, what he considered to be, he was being tempted away.

00:34:24.50
Kevin Shock
Sure, sure, yeah.

00:34:28.57
Nathan Pile
Having doubts was the devil tempting him to, to not be faithful. um

00:34:33.32
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:34:33.96
Nathan Pile
Kind of a, was a part of the way that he arguments or argues kind of his stance.

00:34:37.86
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:34:39.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:34:40.22
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and we have come to know in more modern times through other theologians that doubt is a helpful tool, can be a helpful tool.

00:34:49.49
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

00:34:51.03
Kevin Shock
If we if we pay attention to it and it and and apply certain things to it to help us to help us lead to growth, um the Holy Spirit can use doubt much more than the Holy Spirit can use certainty in shaping somebody.

00:35:06.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:35:08.47
Kevin Shock
and um Yeah, so open questions is important to me and and also the idea of there being central things and non-essential things.

00:35:23.22
Kevin Shock
um the Luther- or The phrase that a lot of Lutherans like to throw around is adiaphora, which really just means inconsequential or non-essential things.

00:35:35.87
Kevin Shock
um There are certain things that we uphold as Lutherans that are core to our faith. And then there are lots of other areas where we believe, at least in theory, that there can be differences of opinion, but we can still do ministry together. And in our current political climate, that treasure of Lutheranism, I think we're losing.

00:36:02.32
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:36:02.58
Kevin Shock
Because I think more and more people do think that we have to agree with one another on everything if we're going to work together in ministry.

00:36:11.53
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:36:12.56
Kevin Shock
and um And so for me, the the the degree or the measure to which we have to agree on things is very, very small.

00:36:25.85
Kevin Shock
um Now understand for the church, there has to be good order, but I also think that we have the opportunity to learn from different kinds of people, both within our tradition and beyond our tradition,

00:36:42.44
Kevin Shock
that can help us to be more faithful in the ministry that we do. And yet it's so easy because of human nature to get in our own way or let let the let the assumptions we have about those other people get in the way of us doing ministry, either with them or alongside them.

00:37:04.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:37:05.58
Kevin Shock
So for me, that's a treasure of Lutheranism, but but some I consider myself to be a very orthodox Lutheran because there are certain things.

00:37:14.44
Nathan Pile
An ELCA Lutheran.

00:37:16.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yes.

00:37:17.51
Nathan Pile
N-E-L-C-A Lutheran.

00:37:17.83
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah yeah. Well, what other people want to name it, I don't care.

00:37:19.89
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:37:22.10
Kevin Shock
I consider myself to be an orthodox Lutheran.

00:37:27.32
Kevin Shock
um And that means that I am unwavering on certain things when it comes to the nature of God and how God works in us.

00:37:37.94
Kevin Shock
um and the gifts of God and unmerited grace. And well, that's not even a Lutheran term, but but grace that flows freely.

00:37:49.67
Kevin Shock
ah And. Yet there are people who would look at me and say, oh that's not a Lutheran. That's not an Orthodox Lutheran.

00:38:02.01
Kevin Shock
He's he's too. liberal or open about certain beliefs to be an Orthodox. Well, no, I think being an Orthodox Lutheran is that you are open to certain beliefs. You're open to a wide variety of beliefs. And that's, that's yeah.

00:38:18.70
Kevin Shock
Orthodoxy is ortho. It's, it's an odd. What am I trying to say? it It's a, it's an oxymoronic phrase because maybe maybe Orthodox and Lutheran don't even go hand in hand.

00:38:35.34
Kevin Shock
Orthodox is all about right belief, same belief.

00:38:37.91
Nathan Pile
Right belief. Yeah.

00:38:39.29
Kevin Shock
And Lutheranism is about, but there could be lots of ways to interpret lots of different things.

00:38:39.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:38:45.92
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:38:45.97
Kevin Shock
But that's why I consider myself an Orthodox Lutheran, because I'm open to lots of different ways of interpreting lots of different things. Yeah.

00:38:54.39
Nathan Pile
And so everything that Kevin has said, for those of you that are listening, um what he's saying as as Lutherans is that that there's ah place where at least ah in the ELCA, um as a part of our national church body, there's a place for congregations who are are ready and prepared and and ready to call, ah say, a gay or lesbian pastor who is in a committed relationship as a pastor to their congregation.

00:39:26.33
Nathan Pile
There's a way in the ELCA that that can happen. There's also a way in the ELCA that congregations can say no if they don't want a um gay or lesbian who's in a committed relationship, pastor to so to say, to be their pastor, um which is really hard because we want to say, well, which one is it?

00:39:52.11
Nathan Pile
Well, it's both.

00:39:56.04
Nathan Pile
And, and because it's not, this decision isn't um critical

00:39:56.23
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:40:05.85
Nathan Pile
In understanding who God is.

00:40:09.48
Nathan Pile
And God's relationship with us. um

00:40:12.10
Kevin Shock
Right. We say that.

00:40:12.96
Nathan Pile
I went on and I, We say that. We say that it's not.

00:40:15.22
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:40:16.17
Nathan Pile
um God would say that living in right relationship is important. And living in right relationship with one another important. as is as important as living in right relationship with God would be what we would hear from scripture, right?

00:40:29.94
Nathan Pile
But as as an ELCA denomination, we're trying we've we've tried to create a organization that allows that whole spectrum, which is really hard in a day and age when we want to say, pick where you're at.

00:40:47.92
Nathan Pile
You're either blue or you're red. You're, you know, what side of, and so it means try you have to, you have to, we have to listen to each other um as a part of this challenge of being, um as Kevin says, Orthodox Lutheran means that we have to be open enough to listen to the other side.

00:41:11.20
Nathan Pile
because if we just want it to be our way again, what's pretty sinful, pretty closed minded, pretty, pretty, um, acts 11 circumcised, uncircumcised, um, who's in, who's out.

00:41:24.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:41:28.76
Nathan Pile
So, so I like Kevin had shared it a lot better, but I was just trying to give us an example of what, what he's really talking about here of that, that kind of, um,

00:41:41.70
Nathan Pile
openness of theology. that that's how we're That's one of the ways in the ELCA we're trying to live that out.

00:41:49.95
Kevin Shock
Right. And and i be again, because of the political climate, um there are certain certain beliefs that people are seeing as essential that maybe they did not before. and And you know the the um what some people would refer to as the sanctity of marriage or limiting marriage to um male and, you know, cis male and female.

00:42:20.34
Kevin Shock
um To me,

00:42:25.17
Kevin Shock
that how someone expresses their love to somebody else does not affect what, what I believe or what, or, you know, my, it does not, it does not become a barrier for the trust of,

00:42:41.36
Kevin Shock
the gift of faith that the Holy Spirit gives to me. And I don't think it's a barrier that the gift of faith that the Holy Spirit gives to them either. ah It's not, frankly, I don't think it's much different of an argument than what the argument Peter's making here in Acts.

00:42:56.85
Nathan Pile
Thank you.

00:42:58.30
Kevin Shock
That previously the the apostles would have thought, well, if people are uncircumcised, they can't receive the Holy Spirit. But... Here, the Holy Spirit is obviously showing that they can receive the Holy Spirit. and And peter Peter rightly comes to the understanding of, ah if if the Holy Spirit is telling me to go and enter the home of and eat with uncircumcised people, people outside of the covenant, and then I witness the Holy Spirit descend upon them, obviously God is doing this.

00:43:40.66
Kevin Shock
And in the same way, if, you know, if, if someone I know is, um, is gay, lesbian, transgender, queer, uh, you know, and any other, any other, ah title or something that might, that for some people would separate them outside of the community of faith, but the Holy Spirit is active in them.

00:44:06.82
Kevin Shock
And especially if I witnessed the Holy Spirit active in them, How can I say, well, who they are is not of God? I I I can't say that.

00:44:23.61
Kevin Shock
Well, anywho. Okay, well why don't we look at it a third time?

00:44:27.80
Nathan Pile
One more time, baby. One more time.

00:44:38.93
Nathan Pile
Come on. My mouse is causing me a hunk, bit of a problem. Here we go.

00:44:50.87
Nathan Pile
The apostles said the apostles and the brothers and sisters throughout Judea heard that even the Gentiles had welcomed God's word. A gas.

00:45:01.77
Nathan Pile
oh When Peter went to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him. They accused him. You went into the home of an uncircumcised and ate with them?

00:45:13.53
Nathan Pile
Step by step, Peter explained what had happened. I was in the city of Joppa, praying, when I had a visionary experience. In my vision, I saw something like a large linen sheet being lowered from heaven by its four corners.

00:45:28.91
Nathan Pile
It came all the way down to me. As I stared at it, wondering what it was, I saw four-legged animals, including wild beasts, as well as reptiles and wild birds. I heard a voice say, Get up, Peter.

00:45:42.62
Nathan Pile
Kill and eat. I responded, Absolutely not, Lord. Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth. The voice from heaven spoke a second time, Never consider and unclean what God has made pure.

00:46:01.04
Nathan Pile
This happened three times. Then everything was pulled back into heaven. At that moment, three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were staying.

00:46:17.29
Nathan Pile
The Spirit told me to go with them, even though they were Gentiles. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered that man's house.

00:46:28.61
Nathan Pile
He reported to us how he had seen an angel standing in his house and saying, Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is known as Peter. He will tell you how you and your entire household can be saved.

00:46:41.74
Nathan Pile
When I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as the Spirit fell on us in the beginning. I remember the Lord's words, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

00:46:55.93
Nathan Pile
If God gave them the same gift he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, then who am I? Could I stand in God's way? Once the apostles and other believers heard this, they calmed down.

00:47:09.96
Nathan Pile
They praised God and concluded. So then, God has enabled Gentiles to change their hearts and lives so that they might have new life.

00:47:26.84
Nathan Pile
Kevin, how can we achieve unity in the church?

00:47:32.60
Kevin Shock
Yep. Don't know. Send your emails to Kevin.

00:47:39.81
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, no, that was my original thought is I, I, yeah, I want to hear what people have to say.

00:47:46.10
Kevin Shock
cause I can't figure it out. Uh, but this conversation has helped push me in certain directions. And one thing is I, I think that,

00:47:58.22
Kevin Shock
I think that both individually and institutionally, we have to discern what are our essential things.

00:48:09.01
Kevin Shock
And I think that more importantly, maybe that's to define how we define the church body itself. um But more importantly, I think what we have to do is discern

00:48:24.02
Kevin Shock
what does the Lord require of us? That Micah 6:8

00:48:29.66
Kevin Shock
um

00:48:33.69
Kevin Shock
what does the Lord require of us in order to be in and to to be called into ministry that we're called into?

00:48:47.43
Kevin Shock
And I don't even know in the, in order to, i don't know if I know what that actually is. What does the Lord require? And I think part of that is the discernment between Are the things that I'm hung up on God's hangups or my hangups?

00:49:08.94
Kevin Shock
And if they're my hangups, doesn't mean I have to change my mind, but it does mean that I need to not let it become a barrier to the, to what the church is doing.

00:49:24.21
Kevin Shock
If they're God's hangups, then I can speak to it. But if, if God is calling people into the church and into ministry that I don't think are the right people to do it, then I have, then I have to do some self-reflection.

00:49:42.00
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Yeah.

00:49:45.24
Kevin Shock
And we have to do some self-reflection. I, yeah, there, ah the, the, the easy, oh my gosh, the easy example is always to go toward,

00:49:58.94
Kevin Shock
a more liberal understanding of who's welcome into participation in the church. And, you know, we in the ELCA, we've gone through that when it comes to LGBTQIA people, that community and and how fully they can participate in the life of the church.

00:50:14.38
Kevin Shock
Again, because of the changing political climate, we're kind of at another pitch point about that where we have more churches leaving the ELCA. But um

00:50:24.59
Kevin Shock
but I also, for me, that's that's the easy example to go to. Another example is the role of lay people and alongside ordained people in our church body.

00:50:38.56
Kevin Shock
And who's allowed to do what and and and who's qualified to do what. And another divide is people that, you know, there are on the other side of the political coin, there are conservative people.

00:50:57.25
Kevin Shock
in our church body that some of the more progressive minded people think they should just leave. and And yet they might have something to offer us in our congregation. So that, you know, there are all kinds of lines that we could draw.

00:51:14.67
Kevin Shock
There are all kinds of divides that we could name. The problem is if we fix one of them, another one's going to pop up. So we have to figure out through the work of the Holy Spirit, how do we find unity?

00:51:28.06
Kevin Shock
How are we able to pull up Peter and Paul where we can say, your way of doing stuff isn't my way doing stuff, but we have the same end goal in mind, so let's just keep doing it side by side.

00:51:41.82
Nathan Pile
Well, and and it's not just that.

00:51:42.04
Kevin Shock
not too Not too close.

00:51:43.22
Nathan Pile
it's They also value each other. There's also a value of each other.

00:51:45.74
Kevin Shock
They do value each other, yeah.

00:51:47.20
Nathan Pile
Even though they don't agree with each other, there's still a value of each other.

00:51:47.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:49.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:51:49.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:51:50.81
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's both and. Yeah.

00:51:52.25
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:51:54.89
Kevin Shock
So I guess, yes, but discerning what does the Lord require?

00:52:02.14
Kevin Shock
And maybe I must decrease in order that he must increase or something like that.

00:52:10.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:52:11.30
Kevin Shock
Anyway, what about you, Nathan? What what are your thoughts? how How can we achieve unity in the church?

00:52:17.09
Nathan Pile
I was struck this time reading it through that even Peter isn't on board with this at the beginning.

00:52:25.16
Kevin Shock
and No, it takes convincing.

00:52:25.59
Nathan Pile
it has the vision The vision happens three times for Peter ah this to for this to take place.

00:52:32.26
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm

00:52:34.58
Nathan Pile
so like recognize so So um there's a part of this that we need to be patient with each other because we need to hear it three times.

00:52:44.05
Kevin Shock
hmm.

00:52:47.16
Nathan Pile
At least, maybe more, actually. but But this is a divine interaction between Peter and God.

00:52:50.15
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:52:53.56
Nathan Pile
so so um So even a sacred moment in Peter's life takes repetition for Pete- for this to become, for Peter to kind of rewrite his own theological understanding and his own theological lens that he has on the world.

00:53:03.45
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:53:15.56
Nathan Pile
And then he goes and teaches it to another body of, um and and this isn't the end of this, you know, dialogue either.

00:53:26.81
Nathan Pile
Like Acts, you know, the Peter-Paul conversation is is a part of this bigger conversation that's continuing to happen in the early church.

00:53:37.68
Nathan Pile
So it's not like there's this meeting in Jerusalem and poof, everything is magically okay now.

00:53:42.24
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:53:43.42
Nathan Pile
You know, it's a it's an ongoing thing. So one piece is that we have to be patient with each other on both sides of whatever the conflict or conversation is about. as we As we seek to live in and in God's ways,

00:53:59.22
Nathan Pile
We have to be patient with each other because God's going to adjust our frames. You know, I've talked about lens and those glasses that we wear. When we get those glasses, they have to be adjusted every now and then.

00:54:12.38
Nathan Pile
um

00:54:12.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:54:13.23
Nathan Pile
I say that only because I have to take my doctor to my daughter to the eye doctor after she gets glasses. I don't know that personally. ah But that we have to go back a couple of times to get them so that they feel ah that that they're fitting and they're functioning the way we want them to function for her. God's the eye doctor for us, right? God's, God's going to try and adjust our lenses.

00:54:34.35
Nathan Pile
But God also knows we need to hear it more than once. So we need to be patient with each other. A, we need to be talking about these things. We can't hide behind, well, this is a really tough conversation. Let's not have it in our congregations.

00:54:45.87
Nathan Pile
right now. Maybe it's not the right time. You know, how many of your congregations have said that? um Or people have said that, it's maybe not the right time.

00:54:51.86
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:54:53.31
Nathan Pile
It's never going to be the right time. So if you're there and it feels like you have to have a conversation, have the conversation um because you're going to have to have it more than once.

00:54:55.18
Kevin Shock
right

00:55:01.83
Nathan Pile
ah And so how do we have that conversation back and forth um is, and and giving ourselves time and patience together to, to allow God to, um,

00:55:15.03
Nathan Pile
rewrite and edit our own theological um understanding so that our lenses are better as we continue to do the mission. um So I think that's a big part of, of this and, and that, and we have to understand the the why of our stories.

00:55:33.56
Nathan Pile
Why did Peter do what he did? And so unity helps us to do that.

00:55:38.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:55:39.54
Nathan Pile
And, and, um,

00:55:44.84
Nathan Pile
And he takes his time to to to make sure that tells the whole story. He doesn't say, we have to do this because of because of this. He takes the time to tell the whole story. From the very beginning of his arrival in Joppa, he tells that whole story to the to to those who are gathered.

00:56:03.71
Nathan Pile
um Sometimes we when we try to explain something as being right, because this is what we believe, We're very short with the other party. I don't think that helps us. I think we have to be able to be go slow and tell the whole story and tell the why.

00:56:18.54
Nathan Pile
um This story reminds me of that, you know, that that that but we have to hear it a couple of times and we have to tell the whole story. we have to tell the why behind what happened so that others and do it in such a way that it helps the person that's listening connect with

00:56:32.03
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:56:40.87
Nathan Pile
the other people in the story.

00:56:43.00
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:56:43.73
Nathan Pile
Peter making sure to kind of say, remember what it was like when we got the Holy Spirit? That's what happened to these folks. I was there. I saw it happen. It happened again.

00:56:55.49
Nathan Pile
um And so it's it's being a witness. it's it's It's sharing the story as we see it. um And even sharing our questions. We talked about the doubt with Luther.

00:57:07.47
Nathan Pile
Asking our questions out loud helps other people to admit that they have questions too. so um So all of those things, I think, are are are how this...

00:57:18.86
Nathan Pile
um

00:57:21.43
Nathan Pile
are a part of how this, this strikes me, um, about how we seek unity together. Um,

00:57:31.16
Nathan Pile
ah it goes back to the quote that you quoted earlier. Ministry happens at the speed of relationships and speed and relationships happen at the speed of trust. So it's going to take, it's not going to happen overnight.

00:57:43.10
Nathan Pile
Um, But it happens by telling our story.

00:57:45.86
Kevin Shock
No.

00:57:47.43
Nathan Pile
It happens by telling our story. It happens by by being open to hear the witness of someone else. um and it And it happens when as God breaks into our world and whatever that looks like, whether it's a vision or it's a conversation at Bible study or a ah having a conversation with a friend at a coffee shop.

00:58:13.17
Nathan Pile
That's where it happens. So

00:58:18.61
Nathan Pile
I think that's how we get there to unity.

00:58:18.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um Well, and I think I think something that you bring up there something you said made me think that this is the real problem is that we don't see people as people.

00:58:34.01
Kevin Shock
We see them as we we generalize them. We identify them with a certain characteristic. We don't see them as a full person.

00:58:45.10
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:58:45.52
Kevin Shock
In fact, I think even in this translation, What does it? um Right. You went into the home of the uncircumcised. There's no there are no human beings in that phrase.

00:58:56.03
Nathan Pile
No names. Yeah. Yeah.

00:58:57.91
Kevin Shock
And not ah not even names, but you're not. It's it's like when people use the oh, man, the current term that gets my skin, my blood boiling is illegals.

00:59:09.52
Kevin Shock
but A person cannot be illegal. An act is illegal, but a person cannot be illegal by nature of the word. um ah which just goes to show that you're not thinking of the people at all.

00:59:24.02
Kevin Shock
And I think it's very similar here. the uncircumcised. you don't see You don't see a face. You don't see anything but a foreskin when you're looking at this person.

00:59:34.49
Nathan Pile
right.

00:59:37.42
Kevin Shock
So, you know, take that for, what I mean, that that speaks more that speaks more about the apostles than it does about the people who are not circumcised.

00:59:48.61
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:59:49.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Did I really just say that? You see nothing but a foreskin?

00:59:54.85
Nathan Pile
you did. You did. It was, um, ah that was the question.

00:59:55.94
Kevin Shock
Oh, gosh. Okay. It just came out.

01:00:00.57
Nathan Pile
Everybody, the Kevin was buttering me up for at the beginning. Um, All you see, or whatever the question, well however you worded it there, the...

01:00:05.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. We don't have to dwell on it any longer.

01:00:17.60
Kevin Shock
Okay. What are our additional texts, Nathan?

01:00:18.05
Nathan Pile
so oh Well, Kevin, um thank thanks for asking me um about them, and I'm going to point it back to you.

01:00:23.57
Kevin Shock
Oh, actually, I'm the person who's supposed to be talking about it. Okay. So we' the other texts that are related to this one for what will be the fifth Sunday of Easter, ah Psalm 148, the splendor of the Lord is over earth and heaven.

01:00:43.15
Kevin Shock
ah Revelation chapter 21 verses 1 through 6, a new heaven and new earth, springs of living water in the new Jerusalem. And ah part of a text that um that we already talked about, did we talk about this one? I can't remember. But if you went to church on Holy Thursday, on Maundy Thursday, you would have heard this.

01:01:02.97
Kevin Shock
John chapter 13 verses 31 through 35, Jesus gives a new commandment, love one another as I have loved you. there's a there's a way toward unity in the church.

01:01:14.23
Kevin Shock
um Well, Nathan, I appreciate with some of these hard questions and rich texts, the reflections that you give. And ah friends, as always, you are more than welcome to email us with your thoughts, and engage with us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.

01:01:32.74
Kevin Shock
And um we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:01:38.60
Nathan Pile
And peace.