Episode 31: John 14:23-29

Translation: New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How does God give differently than the world?

Additional texts:

Acts 16:9-15

Psalm 67

Revelation 21:10, 22—22:5

John 5:1-9

Transcript

PLEASE NOTE: Actual timestamps are approx. 40-45 ahead in the transcript due to early recording errors

00:45.32
Nathan Pile
Hello, Tend Nation. It is good to be back to the podcast here. Kevin and I are going to discuss John, the 14th chapter, verses 23 through 29.

01:03.45
Nathan Pile
um We are going to, Kevin and are going to look at the translation from the New English Version. translation, the NET Bible. um And we invite you to follow along with whatever translation you have, or you can look it up on Bible Gateway. um but We're going to look at the three questions, as is our pattern.

01:26.61
Nathan Pile
What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And how does God give differently than the world?

01:38.93
Nathan Pile
Mmmm, Kevin.

01:39.91
Kevin Shock
Mhm

01:42.95
Kevin Shock
All right, here's some information about your hosts, Kevin and Nathan.

01:46.35
Kevin Shock
We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

01:59.34
Kevin Shock
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

02:14.00
Kevin Shock
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience. As Nathan said, we're reading from John 14, verses 23 to 29 in the New English Translation.

02:26.62
Kevin Shock
Jesus replied, If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him. The person who does not love me does not obey my words, and the word you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

02:42.74
Kevin Shock
I have spoken these things while staying with you, but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

02:54.02
Kevin Shock
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you. I do not give it to you as the world does.

03:00.29
Kevin Shock
Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage. You heard me say to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father because the Father is greater than I am.

03:13.85
Kevin Shock
I have told you now before it happens so that when it happens, you may believe.

03:20.24
Kevin Shock
If you are meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

03:32.47
Nathan Pile
um I actually, that word residence, take up residence, is I have read this um this gospel passage in John in the NET before.

03:47.65
Nathan Pile
And so having heard it, I I enjoy the idea of that.

03:52.97
Nathan Pile
And so this idea that... um

03:57.81
Nathan Pile
that God in in Jesus and in the father are going to come and take up residence. um It's a powerful image. I like that. I like that image that God is um

04:11.81
Nathan Pile
in my, as I enter into a loving relationship with God, God's part of that is coming and taking up residence.

04:23.11
Nathan Pile
in my life. I just like the power of that that that image, that imagery.

04:30.27
Kevin Shock
Hmm I'm trying to think what it is in other translations I don't know off the top of my head although I know it's not take up residence

04:45.29
Nathan Pile
It is not take up residence. um I can look here quickly to see what would happen in, um

04:50.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah Oh make our home

04:54.18
Nathan Pile
The NRSV maybe.

04:58.78
Nathan Pile
Make our home. I was going say, I thought I'm probably was home.

04:59.66
Kevin Shock
we we will

05:01.15
Nathan Pile
was going to guess home.

05:01.35
Kevin Shock
We will come to them and make our home with them. Yeah.

05:04.07
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

05:04.70
Kevin Shock
So what do you think it is about residents that... Oh, okay.

05:07.75
Nathan Pile
It's just different. It's not that I like taking up home any more different, any, you know, any more than I like.

05:09.91
Kevin Shock
Okay.

05:16.34
Nathan Pile
what the NET is saying here. I just, um, that idea of taking up residence, um, coming to make their home would be kind of the same idea.

05:29.74
Nathan Pile
you know, a powerful piece of, of, um, you know, it made, you know, when I think of residents, know, that idea of residence hall going and living in a college space, um, you know, now that happened a long time ago, but there was that idea of coming and living in that space and place and, and forming a new community together with the the other students.

05:43.53
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

05:51.95
Nathan Pile
And that, that idea of, of, um, coming and living, being a part of that community. Um, whereas home would do the same thing, but there's just something about this that, that strikes me as a powerful, a powerful reminder of, of who God is and what God does. When, when we say we're going to enter into a relationship with God, it's not that God has this, um,

06:25.91
Nathan Pile
um distant connection to us. um But rather, Father, Son, and Spirit are coming to live with us.

06:40.61
Nathan Pile
I just like it. I like that. I like yeah um what it says about who God is, that God wants to be close.

06:41.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

06:51.36
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

06:52.66
Nathan Pile
you know, um, and, and if you use the word of the translation from the, um of home, God wants to take up home in us.

06:52.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

07:03.30
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, that's just a strong, that idea, you know, for me, home is a, um, is a safe and powerful word. It might not be for others, but, um, but for me, home is, is is a safe and powerful word. And so being able to think that God is coming to take, to live at home in me, that's a powerful, powerful image of who God is.

07:29.18
Nathan Pile
So, yeah.

07:29.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

07:31.14
Nathan Pile
How about you?

07:32.46
Kevin Shock
um

07:37.04
Kevin Shock
It's just because it sounds weird to me, and it's not just this translation, but um if you loved me, you would be glad that I'm going to the Father because the Father is greater than I am.

07:47.96
Kevin Shock
ah don't I don't know why that comes across as Jesus sounding

07:55.10
Kevin Shock
it's whiny I guess because I I guess it it I mean, I don't think that Jesus is being whiny here.

07:59.04
Nathan Pile
Ha ha!

08:03.34
Kevin Shock
I guess it's because like when I hear that, that phrase, if you loved me, like that sounds like something a child would say parent.

08:15.19
Kevin Shock
if he loved and If he loved me, this you would do this for me

08:18.43
Nathan Pile
Right.

08:19.22
Kevin Shock
um But I'm also intrigued by, ah

08:27.11
Kevin Shock
I mean, the the and no one's stopping Jesus from doing what he's going to do. if you loved me, you would be glad that this is happening for me. And so I, as I read that, I get a sense of the idea of, um, you know, if, if you love some, if you love somebody or something, set them free.

08:36.71
Nathan Pile
right

08:46.89
Kevin Shock
ah there's this sense here that Jesus is Jesus is going to a place that will be ah better for him.

08:59.53
Kevin Shock
um or, well, I mean, I, I don't know that for sure, but I'm, I mean, I'm pretty sure of it. I mean, he will, he will have a a loving eternal home with the father. And yet, um, he's also talking about how that enables him to come and make a home with the people who love him here you on earth.

09:20.23
Kevin Shock
So, uh, think there is a sense of, um

09:20.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

09:26.90
Kevin Shock
Well, as as I think back between of the relationship between Jesus and the and the disciples, that there is a sense all throughout the relationship, a theme of um if if you love me, if you love what I'm doing, you're going to get on board with what I'm doing.

09:44.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

09:44.39
Kevin Shock
You're going to let me do it and not get in my way of doing it.

09:47.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah

09:48.23
Kevin Shock
And I think that that probably is, as I talk through it, that probably continues here too.

09:54.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's just, though I see though why it sticks out to you, because it does feel a little, um well, you said kind of whiny.

10:06.97
Nathan Pile
um But but that I that that idea of um being glad or or rejoicing for me because I'm doing, you know, this better thing is happening.

10:09.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

10:16.60
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

10:18.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah. for me, but it doesn't, doesn't quite deliver that message in that way.

10:27.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

10:28.57
Nathan Pile
Um, but yeah, talking through it, absolutely.

10:28.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

10:31.85
Nathan Pile
I think we get, you get to that point you do where, um, this is a positive thing for me. And so you should be celebrating with me that this is a positive thing for me. Um, yet, uh, it does, it does leave a little bit of, um,

10:42.83
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

10:50.33
Nathan Pile
question. Again, Kevin and I have shared that the and NET provides lots of notes. And so this note, there's several notes right in this section, all connected to some of the

11:05.91
Nathan Pile
not understanding of the or not the, not understanding the complexity around, um, who is Christ in relationship relationship to God, the father, and that this passage sometimes gets used to, um, define that, um, as we go forward. So,

11:26.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah, as I look over the whole reading again, right at the beginning, he says, if anyone loves me, he will obey my word and my father will love him, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

11:37.56
Kevin Shock
But that sounds different than ah if you loved me.

11:41.49
Nathan Pile
Right, yeah.

11:42.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I think it's just that turn of phrase specifically. So, yeah.

11:47.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

11:50.83
Kevin Shock
Okay.

11:51.32
Nathan Pile
Right.

11:51.39
Kevin Shock
um Let's look at it a second time.

11:55.41
Nathan Pile
All right.

11:56.40
Kevin Shock
From, oh, it's your turn to read.

11:58.45
Nathan Pile
My turn to read, yeah.

12:01.43
Nathan Pile
John the fourteenth chapter. Jesus replied, if anyone loves me, he will obey my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and take up residence with him.

12:13.40
Nathan Pile
The person who does not love me does not obey my words. And the word you hear is not mine, but the father's who sent me. I have spoken these things while staying with you, but the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

12:35.72
Nathan Pile
Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give it to you as the world does. Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage.

12:48.82
Nathan Pile
You heard me say to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father because the Father is greater than I am.

13:01.21
Nathan Pile
I have told you now before it happens so that when it happens, you may believe.

13:09.88
Nathan Pile
Kevin, um toward what is God calling you in this text?

13:17.22
Kevin Shock
I get the impression that this is,

13:25.41
Kevin Shock
as I hear this text, I hear it to be a ah a text of trust, a text that encourages trust, that there is this sense that God is ever near that God will not, even though Jesus is leaving the disciples, he's not abandoning them.

13:46.49
Kevin Shock
um Not only does he say, I will, you know, it for those who love me, I- the father and I will come and make our home with them or take up residence with them.

14:01.59
Kevin Shock
um But also there's a promise to send the advocate, the Holy Spirit. And, uh, yeah.

14:12.36
Kevin Shock
So i think that

14:18.78
Kevin Shock
I, this is, I don't want to say, it oh well, yeah, I don't know. I have trouble saying it's calling me toward trust because I know I've said a million times on this podcast that I don't think trust is something that I can well up in myself and It's not trust isn't something that comes as a force of will on my own.

14:39.39
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

14:39.40
Kevin Shock
Trust is a gift. But I think so maybe this is calling me to remember that trust is a gift and that um and that God gives us reason to trust. Jesus gives us reason to trust in his constant presence, in the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

14:58.05
Kevin Shock
um in

15:04.01
Kevin Shock
ah remembering and understanding that we're never alone. ah you know, that's,

15:12.77
Kevin Shock
that's what the, you know, I don't like the, we always talk about we Lutherans are a, we're a, not an if then people worry because they're for people.

15:24.38
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

15:24.62
Kevin Shock
Um, um, that it's not that the work of God is not dependent and does not wait for our action to initiate it.

15:33.46
Kevin Shock
ah the the The work of God happens already. And so our life of faith lived out, our love for God is a response to that work that God has already done on our behalf.

15:51.45
Kevin Shock
Um, so I, you know, so there are, because that's the lens that I look at scripture through, that's the theology that is ingrained in me.

16:05.10
Kevin Shock
I have some trouble with hearing even Jesus say things like, if anyone, if anyone loves me, then I will, or then the father will.

16:18.10
Kevin Shock
Um, but, That's, ah yeah, i I don't think that that's necessarily...

16:30.08
Kevin Shock
I don't, I don't think that Jesus' presence with us is necessarily dependent on us making the first move.

16:35.93
Kevin Shock
ah Jesus clearly has already made the first move here in the gospel, according to John. And um

16:45.05
Kevin Shock
so, yeah, so despite the fact that those... those if statements are in this text, uh, it's still to me sounds like a text of promise and a text that leads me toward remembering that God is trustworthy. Jesus is trustworthy.

17:08.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So that's, that's where I am.

17:11.35
Nathan Pile
Well, and I think the, the piece of this, that's as you were talking, the piece that strikes me as this, is that there is this relationship piece that's here.

17:26.15
Nathan Pile
um Yes, God, Jesus talking about Jesus's relationship with us, God's relationship with us, the Holy Spirit's relationship with us. um So all of that you know kind of bound together um in this in this relationship conversation. And so ah there's a deep feeling for me of relationship of these three paragraphs. And you you you talked about that trust piece and and recognizing the gift of that trust piece.

17:59.18
Nathan Pile
For me, it was it was I was more bound up in the idea that that God's calling me into relationship and God's in that relationship. God is providing several gifts. A, God coming to live with me.

18:13.94
Nathan Pile
B, the Holy Spirit to to teach me and even to help me remember. um ah which but Which does stick out about this passage for me a little bit.

18:26.47
Nathan Pile
um Is that... that the that the Holy Spirit, not, I, a lot of times I think about the Holy Spirit coming to teach me God's ways or to, to inspire me.

18:39.31
Nathan Pile
um but that idea that the Holy Spirit also comes to remind me, to to help me remember, um, what I, what I've already been taught or what I should already know, um, as a part of things.

18:52.22
Nathan Pile
And then, and then this idea of peace, um, So i think those are the those are the all of that, though, is wrapped up in relationship here. All three of these paragraphs for me strongly

19:12.58
Nathan Pile
tell me how God is is calling me into relationship, but also how God is gifting me things as a part of our relationship.

19:24.65
Kevin Shock
Mm.

19:27.47
Nathan Pile
So as you, as you talk kind of identified that piece of relate of, of, um, of relationship in the midst of trust, I would, you know, all of that echoes for me. I wouldn't say that I would, that I'm opposed to anything that you said around that idea of gift of trust.

19:43.68
Nathan Pile
Um, Because trust, you know, you and I've talked again and we talk about it. we We'll talk about today, obviously, but we've talked about it many times about the idea that relationships move at the speed of trust.

19:55.82
Nathan Pile
And so trust is ah is at the core of that. um

20:03.29
Nathan Pile
You know, as we go as we go forward, but for for me, the piece that comes out of this that echoes what you were saying is that idea of relationship.

20:16.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um ah Just hearing you say that again, I mean, of course, that's something that I always think of in human

20:28.37
Kevin Shock
terms that you're talking about human relationship that that trust has to exist between human beings for relationship to grow there i guess i've never actually thought about it in terms of our relationship a relationship between me and god that that relationship also moves at the speed of trust and

20:46.56
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

20:54.48
Kevin Shock
And that could be that fact, or I mean, I guess you, I I take it, I take it to be a fact. I take it to be a reality. It makes sense to me that that could be a reason why God gives trust as a gift.

21:13.18
Kevin Shock
God does not wait for us to come up with trust on our own, because if it did, we would we would hardly ever get to relationship with God. Um, but given the gift of trust and I think the gift of trust comes easily in relationship to, um, uh,

21:37.51
Kevin Shock
but as I'm in relationship with someone who is infinitely trustworthy, that makes it easier for me to trust. So that's that, that, that in and of itself is a gift.

21:47.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

21:49.17
Kevin Shock
Um, And yet, even though God is trustworthy, even though trust is given as a gift, trust is not um trust is something that I also exercise some control over.

22:04.15
Kevin Shock
um Doubt still enters in. um

22:10.50
Kevin Shock
or feeling abandoned rather, but maybe not even doubt, but, but feelings of abandonment enter in. And so if that's, if that's the case, if I'm in a situation where I'm feeling that way, my relationship with God is going to suffer because of it. It's not that it's not that I'm at fault necessarily, but, but I do need that gift of trust to feel like I'm in relationship with Jesus.

22:38.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And that also, talking through it in that regard, also unlocks for me a little bit of the, if any anyone loves me. um

22:49.14
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

22:50.35
Kevin Shock
I think I think maybe, I'm sure, knowing how faithful the NET seeks to be to the original text, I'm sure that love is the operative word there.

23:00.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

23:01.10
Kevin Shock
But it also makes sense to me, if anyone trusts me.

23:04.78
Nathan Pile
Mm.

23:06.00
Kevin Shock
And again, that that's not...

23:14.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I knowing, knowing that trust can ebb and flow, it makes sense to me that um we are we are fully aware of God's presence with us whenever our trust in God is strong.

23:33.79
Kevin Shock
And whenever our trust wanes, then, you know, we might not be quite as certain or aware.

23:44.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm rambling through this, but I'm, I'm really thinking out loud about it more than anything else.

23:46.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

23:52.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. And, and um,

23:59.03
Nathan Pile
again, I'm, so I am, I am struck by these, these, the words that provide, um an invitation, um, that provide,

24:13.24
Nathan Pile
um the gift that God is, um, sharing with us, you know, to to again, at the very beginning, Jesus tell us that, um,

24:32.09
Nathan Pile
that those that love, or again, as you said, those that trust, um, trust Jesus, trust God,

24:43.96
Nathan Pile
um

24:46.52
Nathan Pile
That God comes to live there. That God comes to live in that that individual, that person, um that community. um

25:00.55
Nathan Pile
You know, that's one gift. But then to have these other gifts of the Holy Spirit that's coming to teach, that's coming to remind, that's coming to guide us in our day-to-day lives, to make connections in in the world um in which we live.

25:16.35
Nathan Pile
You know oftentimes when I talk about a gift of the Holy Spirit, I kind of say, you know, I didn't I didn't realize... you know, that this was God at work. but But now looking back, I can see the Holy Spirit connecting all of these different events or experiences that led up to something that taught me something.

25:38.18
Nathan Pile
And so being able to kind of look back or or all of these chants, you know, people might say, well, all of this happened by chance.

25:38.90
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

25:41.55
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

25:45.76
Nathan Pile
And you could say, well, you might say that, or I might say it was the Holy spirit. Um, because it, you know, looking back, you can, it does, there's, we didn't control it. We didn't solely make it happen. Maybe it was two or three different individuals that, that came together, um through different motivations or different inspiration. They come together and kind of start to work on a new idea or a project or a goal and, and it reaches completion.

26:17.26
Nathan Pile
Um, and they all kind of say, well, that was, you know, um there's a bit of luck that happened and it was you know to to find that you halfway along trying to create something that I was also trying to create you know again I might, I would as a child of god say that that's the holy spirit that makes sense that the holy spirit would connect us um in those in that way um

26:43.39
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

26:43.77
Nathan Pile
So we have yet the second gift and then the third gift of Jesus kind of saying to us, peace. I give you this gift of peace and I give you this gift of peace because I'm going away, but I'm giving you, I'm giving it to you so that that you can live in the midst of

27:08.93
Nathan Pile
the doubts, questions, challenges of the world that you're that I know you're going to continue to live in.

27:16.35
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

27:16.63
Nathan Pile
And so you have three distinct gifts all around this idea of living um in a relationship with God, in a loving relationship with God, in a trusting relationship with God.

27:30.24
Nathan Pile
um Jesus knows that we're gonna that we need all of it to kind of make it happen.

27:35.96
Kevin Shock
Mhm

27:39.00
Nathan Pile
And again, I don't think at times we think about relationship on all of those levels. has got you know as ah as As two friends, we have a relationship, but thinking about all of the ways that Jesus is trying to prepare our relationship for what's coming ahead um as As two friends, we communicate back and forth. You and I luckily, blessed in some ways, we get to do that weekly.

28:07.86
Nathan Pile
um But I don't even know that that that we enter into a relationship in the same way as Jesus. Jesus seems to come fully prepared for what Jesus knows we're going to need.

28:23.05
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

28:24.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah. you know, and you and I ah exhibit grace and forgiveness in the midst of our relationship with each other. Um, you know, helping each other out or guiding, you know, forgiving each other when we step on each other's toes or, or do something that we, Oh, I didn't think about that, buddy.

28:43.29
Nathan Pile
Um, kind of a thing. Whereas Jesus comes knowing, Hey, I know you're going to need these things as you move, forward as as we continue in a relationship together.

28:50.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

28:52.89
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, is, is again,

28:53.13
Kevin Shock
Right.

28:56.64
Nathan Pile
It is God. So it makes sense that God would know and do all of that. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier.

29:05.16
Nathan Pile
We have a God who is trustworthy and shows us time and time again that God is trustworthy.

29:13.27
Nathan Pile
And so being able to give us scripture that guides us thousands of years after Jesus walked the the earth, again, is another one of those ways that feels rich and, and yet another gift for us.

29:34.98
Nathan Pile
So.

29:38.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. that Well, just what you were saying there, it makes me think that, um you know, things that the the level that you and I exist on in friendship has taken 30 years to get there.

29:53.99
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

29:54.81
Kevin Shock
Whereas our relationship with Jesus kind of comes ready made, at least from one from one from from one end, from one perspective.

30:04.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

30:06.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

30:07.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

30:08.93
Kevin Shock
Because Jesus doesn't have to go through all of the, ah like, wheat we as human beings um have to get to know Jesus, ah but um he already knows us.

30:19.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

30:23.68
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Jesus is already all in on his end of the relationship.

30:26.07
Kevin Shock
Right, right, that's right, yeah.

30:26.94
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's saying, I want to have a 30 year relationship with you, even if today is the first day of that relationship.

30:36.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

30:37.42
Nathan Pile
You know, the that's the gifts I, those are the gifts I bring to give to you because that's the kind of, I want to have a 30 year relationship, even if this is just day one of that relationship.

30:38.03
Kevin Shock
Right, right, right.

30:48.11
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

30:48.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

30:48.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:53.09
Nathan Pile
Well, anything else ready to do a third time?

30:53.65
Kevin Shock
Yep.

30:56.03
Kevin Shock
I don't think so. Yeah, let's look at it a third time.

31:00.23
Kevin Shock
From John 14. Jesus replied, if any anyone loves me, he will obey my word. And my father will love him and we will come to him and take up residence with him.

31:12.57
Kevin Shock
The person who does not love me does not obey my words. And the word you hear is not mine, but the father's who sent me. I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in my name, will teach you everything and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

31:30.67
Kevin Shock
Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you. I do not give it to you as the world does. Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage. You heard me say to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you.

31:43.90
Kevin Shock
If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father because the Father is greater than I am. I have told you now before it happens so that when it happens, you may believe.

31:56.75
Kevin Shock
Nathan, how does God give differently than the world?

32:03.31
Nathan Pile
So um as you started to read this this third time, I happened to glance at that third question again, just to kind of remind myself. And as I was listening, I'm I'm still processing this. So i'm i'm I'm an extrovert, everybody. So I'm fleshing out my idea as I'm verbally sharing it to you today.

32:21.31
Nathan Pile
um So it might change by the time I get to the end of it. but um But there was something about the beginning of this that felt a little bit transactionary.

32:32.24
Kevin Shock
Mmm, Mm-hmm.

32:32.64
Nathan Pile
um

32:33.43
Kevin Shock
Mmm, Interesting.

32:36.41
Nathan Pile
ah But then at the same time, ah because ah if if if anyone loves me, he will obey my word. so So like, here's the command. if you love me, obey the word my word.

32:50.36
Nathan Pile
um And my father will love you in return.

32:54.76
Nathan Pile
And so there there to there, it felt a little transactionary.

32:54.94
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

32:57.88
Nathan Pile
And then um we will come and take up residence in you. um that that felt a little bit in more than transactionary.

33:09.93
Nathan Pile
Like, if I obey they'll if I obey God's commands, God's going to love me, and that should be, i guess that's where I would feel like the world ends. it's Our typical relationships in the world is, you give me something, I give you something, transaction over.

33:29.71
Kevin Shock
okay

33:30.32
Nathan Pile
you know, you want a cheeseburger, you give me, fill I want a cheeseburger, I give you $5, you give me a cheeseburger.

33:30.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

33:36.60
Nathan Pile
Transaction over. Here it feels like, so that's where the transaction starts. You love me and obey my word. God will love you in return. And God will move in with you.

33:51.96
Nathan Pile
So it's like you get something free.

33:52.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

33:53.72
Nathan Pile
Like you get something, it's a bonus. It's an extra, um, an extra something,

33:56.92
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

33:59.15
Nathan Pile
um um That's going to happen as a part of this relationship that you're entering in with me. ah So there's so there's there is a feel of transaction to this.

34:12.99
Nathan Pile
And yet it just keeps feeling like God is piling on the deal like the deal just keeps getting better.

34:24.38
Kevin Shock
Mmm, mm-hm.

34:24.92
Nathan Pile
in some ways, um because not only does God love me and then God is going to take up residence with me. um But God is, God is going to send the Holy Spirit and it's going to teach me things and it's going to remember.

34:41.38
Nathan Pile
And so, and then there's also peace. that you're gonna give me. and And because of all of this, even as you read that that section there in 28 that you had started to talk about within in the first question, even that kind of almost set a little said set a little differently on in my ears as you were saying

34:44.92
Kevin Shock
yeah

35:03.64
Nathan Pile
saying those words. Because if i'm and all of these deal, you know like all of this is is coming together um You know, Jesus kind of saying, um you know, this this you should be happy for me because I'm going to go to this i'm going to go and be with God.

35:30.89
Nathan Pile
um It just it felt different. It hit, hit my ears a little differently um as as a part of all of these pieces.

35:36.87
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

35:41.81
Nathan Pile
um So, yeah, and it was. um So how does it going back to the original question of of like, how does God give differently than the world? It seems that God doesn't understand our transactionary system.

35:56.53
Nathan Pile
Like I should happen to keep doing things to get what God is giving me. But that doesn't seem to be what God does. um Like. God hears the first part of the transaction and then God just keeps saying, and and then you get this and then you get this for free.

36:12.42
Nathan Pile
And then, then you get this for free.

36:14.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

36:14.44
Nathan Pile
Um, like in our system, our system would be like, what's he doing? He's giving away the whole store. um how's he possibly going to survive? You know, again, and some of this is because we have a capitalistic system and and these are the values that we're taught. and and And I don't believe that our economic capitalistic system is God's economic system.

36:37.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

36:38.05
Nathan Pile
God has a different economic system. that I absolutely believe that that's true.

36:40.59
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

36:42.01
Nathan Pile
and ah And it should be a little uncomfortable for us as Christians lutheran christians at times um the way our society wants us to function in its system because its system doesn't doesn't support um or doesn't um cherish uh the the last the least the lost the lonely and yet that's who god calls us to also take up residence with if we're going to use the language of this reading. So

37:16.92
Nathan Pile
um

37:17.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

37:18.65
Nathan Pile
so that that's that would be my my response to this, that there's that it feels like it starts out like, oh, I'm going to understand this. if i do If I love Jesus um and I obey God, God's going to love me too.

37:33.20
Nathan Pile
But then then these other pieces just feel like God just keeps, um, he, he's the, he's the, um, he's the salesman on, um,

37:46.70
Nathan Pile
on the TV shopping place. any he And he's like, and you think that's the end? No, yeah you're going to get this on top of it.

37:53.04
Kevin Shock
ah

37:54.76
Nathan Pile
That's I'm making this such a great deal that you're getting this on top of it.

37:56.47
Kevin Shock
Wait, wait, there's more. Yeah.

37:58.45
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the phrase I'm looking for. Wait, wait, there's more.

38:01.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:02.53
Nathan Pile
That was the way they used to do it.

38:02.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:03.93
Nathan Pile
They advertise it.

38:04.36
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah

38:04.81
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

38:06.65
Kevin Shock
ah

38:09.01
Nathan Pile
That's exactly the phrase I was looking for.

38:09.04
Kevin Shock
yeah

38:10.61
Nathan Pile
I couldn't think of it, but that's exactly the phrase. Wait, you think that's, the you think this is a good deal? Wait, there's more. And, and God throws a little bit more onto the pile. So, yeah.

38:20.91
Kevin Shock
yeah

38:21.47
Nathan Pile
So that's my, um, so that's how it feels different to me.

38:21.57
Kevin Shock
yeah

38:24.83
Nathan Pile
Um, is that God doesn't like, it feels a little bit like God doesn't get our system, which is absolutely okay. and And it is why I trust God and because it's different than our system because our system, I look at our system at times, even though I've benefited from it and I live in it day to day, it can seem and look a little broken.

38:36.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

38:47.45
Kevin Shock
Sure.

38:48.47
Nathan Pile
So how about you

38:48.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:50.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um

38:52.03
Nathan Pile
How about you?

38:53.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I mean, honestly, honestly, my answer is pretty much the same.

38:53.27
Nathan Pile
How does God give differently to you?

38:57.99
Kevin Shock
I'm struck in this reading, in this translation, the translation that I know or the rendering of this that I know most clearly is I do not give to you as the world gives.

39:11.47
Kevin Shock
um But in the NET, that word it is in there. I do not give it to you as the world does. um And of course ah of course, there's a note next to it.

39:23.22
Kevin Shock
I didn't, didn't look see what the note says.

39:23.94
Nathan Pile
Ha ha ha ha.

39:25.87
Kevin Shock
Oh, the pronoun it is not in the Greek text, but it has been supplied. ah Direct objects in Greek were often omitted when clear from the context. Well, that's interesting because I think it definitely changes the feeling of it.

39:39.45
Kevin Shock
ah Just that little word, it, ah because it refers directly back to peace.

39:42.31
Nathan Pile
yeah

39:47.82
Kevin Shock
So first of all, my first thought is I'm not sure that the world even gives peace to people um because we live in a world where by By our nature, by instinct, competition is is more the way of doing things than cooperation and ah and peace.

40:14.46
Kevin Shock
there's there's just There's inherent violence in our world because of our brokenness. ah So I'm not sure that peace is something that the world gives. um But I also...

40:29.33
Kevin Shock
I agree with what what you say that to me, the, the meaning behind this, this sentence is that this is not, this is not transactional giving, um, the world, the the world gives and the world has expectations on that gift.

40:40.76
Nathan Pile
right

40:52.28
Kevin Shock
Um, we we expect there's I think there's a certain expectation level when we're operating in the ways of the world that there will we'll get something in return for something that we give and um and that's just simply not the way that I think Jesus operates uh he he gives freely i mean he gave his life freely didn't put any stipulations on being nailed to the cross

41:13.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

41:22.81
Kevin Shock
It's just what he did. So I, um

41:29.74
Kevin Shock
yeah, I, I think that there's um there's an abundance that is in God's giving that doesn't exist in the world. There's lack of transaction that it's, it's free. It's freely giving. It's generous giving.

41:46.75
Kevin Shock
um It's giving without regard of whether we deserve it or not. um And it's it's that notion of...

42:00.26
Kevin Shock
um

42:04.27
Kevin Shock
I don't know how to explain it. I was just thinking of it, in regards to something else last week, and I can't even remember what it was. But ah but the idea, the, the theological idea that generosity is a gift that continues to multiply beyond what we can understand or see. And that...

42:21.73
Kevin Shock
that Um, that generally, I, why yeah I even think I wrote it in something I was writing last week. The generosity is not a zero sum game that the more I give, then the less I have for myself.

42:38.14
Kevin Shock
Um, it's generosity works more in the understanding of the more I give, the more we all have together. Um, And I think that that's, I think that's how Jesus operates too. I mean, generosity is a gift of the spirit. So, uh, or fruit of the spirit. I can't remember which one, but, um, yeah, that Jesus gives freely because he knows what it, he, he knows how beneficial it is for people for us to have all that he can give.

43:16.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:18.13
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I love, ah go ahead.

43:18.26
Kevin Shock
And that's, that's simply not something that happens in the world or according to the world's standards, I should say.

43:22.46
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

43:26.96
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Your reflection using those words of generosity and abundance um kind of strike a chord for me that that they are not

43:41.33
Nathan Pile
that language doesn't seem to be, even though, yes, it is in our lexicon and we use it, it's in our dictionaries. It doesn't seem to be native to us.

43:52.73
Nathan Pile
You know, I, I, I,

43:53.68
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:54.58
Nathan Pile
I um

44:00.07
Nathan Pile
When we, you know, can we be abundant and can we be generous? Absolutely. Sure. And there are people that do that with their time and others who do that with their um their contributions and donations.

44:13.61
Nathan Pile
um

44:16.27
Nathan Pile
But there's also a part of me that has read a couple of research reports that, you know, we say the the wealthiest among us are generous and they give... big gifts, sure, but sometimes it's only one or two or 3% of what what they, you know, a percentage of what their annual income is.

44:39.16
Nathan Pile
And so, yes, it's a huge number, but it's not anywhere close to 10% or, you know, and so there's there's a piece that that um

44:51.26
Nathan Pile
sometimes we see abundance and generosity, ah you know, wonderful gifts. And we kind of say, well, this is amazing. and And yes, it's amazing, but, but is it is it as abundant as um and as generous as what God does? Absolutely not.

45:10.36
Nathan Pile
I'm not saying that we can ever reflect that same generosity and abundance. But when we talk about God being abundant, it's, in in in the gifts, this verse kind of makes me feel that, you know, that, you know, as I, as I shared in my reflection, like this just feels like God keeps adding on the deal, adding to the deal and and and so much to the so much so that the rest of us kind of feel like, well, what's he doing? Like he's, he's just over the top.

45:44.52
Nathan Pile
He's giving away too much. Yeah. if we were looking at it through a consumeristic economic lens, um, kind of a thing.

45:53.31
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

45:54.93
Nathan Pile
And and yet that's exactly, God doesn't look in the world at the world in the same way. God, God gives to us, um, all God takes up residence in us, even when we don't fully understand the full relationship. God gives,

46:12.16
Nathan Pile
um has in mind for us. Whereas all of us would be, all right, if we're going to be friends, let's start out and go have coffee. And, you know, God's saying, let's move in and be here together forever moving forward.

46:27.13
Nathan Pile
You know, the rest of us are kind of like, let's have coffee, see how 20 minutes goes. And then maybe we'll have another chance to get together. um that's not That's not who God, God's in from the very beginning, a hundred you know more than 100%.

46:39.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

46:41.26
Nathan Pile
And so those those those words of abundance and generosity um strike me and and are powerful in that.

46:41.57
Kevin Shock
yeah

46:49.25
Nathan Pile
using them as a description of, of who God is. And, and, and though we can be ah abundant and, and generous, I think sometimes I know for myself, I can speak that, um, even if I'm a think, Oh, I'm going to make a donation, make a donation. But then I'm like, man did I give too much?

47:07.96
Nathan Pile
maybe You know, did I leave again that question of did I leave enough for myself um creeps in there. That doesn't that question doesn't you know the the divine nature of God, that question doesn't pop into God's head.

47:21.81
Nathan Pile
Of, know, did I do too much?

47:22.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

47:24.39
Nathan Pile
That's it's not even it's not a part of God's lexicon.

47:24.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

47:28.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

47:29.10
Nathan Pile
It doesn't appear at least it doesn't appear that way.

47:29.25
Kevin Shock
and and And I like your example of like of having to test the waters of a relationship.

47:36.75
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah

47:37.17
Kevin Shock
um God has already tested the waters. I mean, God has, God has created us.

47:41.77
Nathan Pile
yeah

47:44.24
Kevin Shock
But I like to think of... um I'm I'm a fan of the character development of God in the Bible. i don't I know that there are a lot of Christians who are not a fan of that. um And so don't even see it.

47:54.93
Kevin Shock
ah but um But the way that I think of God's character development isn't that God is changeable. But what God has done is God has created, made a creation...

48:06.89
Kevin Shock
and that creation is of God and then something enters into it that breaks it. And so a, a a perfect being has to then learn how to be in relationship with imperfect people, imperfect beings.

48:26.55
Kevin Shock
And, um, and so though God has created us and God knows our innermost workings, there's an aspect of us that God does not inherently understand.

48:38.63
Kevin Shock
And that is our, our brokenness, our, our ability, our ability to separate, be separate from one another, uh, or to drive division into relationships.

48:51.82
Kevin Shock
And, um, and so, you know, but, but God then got to test the waters in the person of Jesus who lived among us. And,

49:03.51
Kevin Shock
came to understand us in a new way. And, and we in the same regard then came to understand God in a new way. Yeah.

49:13.32
Kevin Shock
So yeah, God at no point ever had to say, i wonder what Kevin's like. i think God knows what I'm, God knows what I'm like.

49:21.90
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah. right

49:24.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah. God doesn't have to take me out for coffee to figure out whether I'm worthy of going out for coffee a second time. No, it's, yeah. we're Well, and that's the other word too. We're made worthy in God's image. And that's, that's what I hear in this passage as well, that God desires to make a to take up residence with us. God wants to be with us.

49:50.69
Kevin Shock
um And unless we get in the way of it, God will be with us always.

49:58.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

49:58.87
Kevin Shock
Well, even if we get in the way with it, God will be with us.

50:01.22
Nathan Pile
God's still, yeah, God's still there.

50:01.65
Kevin Shock
But, but yeah, but, ah but, ah but the relationship suffers if we consistently try to get in the way of it, I guess is another way to say it. So, yeah.

50:11.41
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

50:15.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

50:15.65
Nathan Pile
All right, anything else, buddy?

50:15.99
Kevin Shock
So that's it. No, I don't think so.

50:20.30
Nathan Pile
Some additional texts to... um dig into. The last several weeks we had looked at Acts. So another additional reading of Acts here and in season after Easter would be Acts 16 verses 9 to 15. Lydia and her household are baptized by Paul.

50:41.78
Nathan Pile
Psalm 67, let the nations be glad and sing for joy. ah Revelations chapter 21, verse 10, and then verse 22 through chapter 22, verse 5.

50:54.35
Nathan Pile
That's all

50:55.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah, just, oh, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Sorry.

51:01.29
Nathan Pile
That's alright. The Lamb is the light of the city of God. And then John chapter 5, verses 1 through 9, Jesus heals on the Sabbath.

51:13.92
Nathan Pile
would be an alternative reading um to our gospel.

51:16.57
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

51:18.73
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

51:19.02
Kevin Shock
It's an alternate gospel. Yeah. That I just about the book of Acts though, that reading of Lydia is ah great reading. It's just, we don't get the whole story in that reading.

51:27.65
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

51:28.05
Kevin Shock
And, um, and we also get lots of the first couple of verses are lots of, so we set sail toward this city and went through this town and did this kind of, so I, uh, I, I regretfully, did not choose the Acts reading for this episode, but we will return to it for the next episode.

51:52.07
Nathan Pile
Well, as always, Kevin, I enjoy sharing with you and picking up reflections. ah We hope to tend our faith with you again soon.

52:05.64
Nathan Pile
Grace to you.

52:06.95
Kevin Shock
And peace.