Episode 33: Romans 8:14-17

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How does your spirit bear witness?

Additional texts:

Acts 2:1-21

Genesis 11:1-9

Psalm 104:24-34, 35b

John 14:8-17 [25-27]

Transcript

00:00:02.97
Nathan Pile
Hello, everyone listening as we get started with another episode of Tend. I'm not going to pretend that um I have a lot of really fun things to say or do, but I do have a little bit of a surprise for you this morning as we are, whatever time you're listening, we're obviously recording in the morning, um whenever you listen.

00:00:23.80
Kevin Shock
this is also This is also a surprise for me, by the way.

00:00:27.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's a surprise for Kevin, um though when he hears it, it won't be that much of a surprise. But there's a big surprise here in the opening to the podcast today. the um So I'm I'm very excited to get started.

00:00:42.17
Nathan Pile
um Kevin, how are you? You doing well?

00:00:45.56
Kevin Shock
yeah I'm doing fine this morning.

00:00:46.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:00:46.96
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

00:00:47.27
Nathan Pile
He's drinking out of his I'm 50 mug, everyone, again. so um So he's celebrating life today. Celebrating life. and the

00:00:54.00
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:00:54.62
Nathan Pile
The old man of this podcast is celebrating life.

00:00:56.36
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:00:58.23
Nathan Pile
um This week, we're going to look at Romans chapter 8, verses 14 through 17. And Kevin and I will be reading from the NRSVUE.

00:01:14.67
Nathan Pile
There's the big excitement, everybody. i need you to be excited about it. um It's kind of like the old radio thing for WQR.

00:01:22.47
Kevin Shock
Oh.

00:01:23.38
Nathan Pile
What was that? WQR? That wasn't WKRP. WKRP.

00:01:28.11
Kevin Shock
Oh, WKRP.

00:01:29.07
Nathan Pile
WKRP in Cincinnati.

00:01:29.32
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:01:32.24
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:01:32.27
Nathan Pile
This is NRSVUE

00:01:33.26
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:01:38.94
Nathan Pile
all over the globe.

00:01:39.48
Kevin Shock
Oh. Oh, my goodness. It is all over the globe.

00:01:41.79
Nathan Pile
That's right.

00:01:44.51
Nathan Pile
I know I'm not positive there's people listening all over the world, but it could be. There's a potential in this day and age of technology.

00:01:49.31
Kevin Shock
No, no. but the biblical The biblical translation is all over the globe.

00:01:52.82
Nathan Pile
but the But the biblical translation is all over the world

00:01:55.17
Kevin Shock
Yes. Yes.

00:01:56.44
Nathan Pile
Very exciting. So, um, so that was the big translation excitement for the day. Uh, three questions as is per our norm.

00:02:07.56
Kevin Shock
ah

00:02:08.07
Nathan Pile
Uh, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text? And the third mystery question.

00:02:21.70
Nathan Pile
How does your spirit bear witness? Um, So we'll look to chew on that one um because the first thing I thought about with the word bear was ah an actual bear.

00:02:26.61
Kevin Shock
All right.

00:02:35.19
Nathan Pile
um

00:02:36.07
Kevin Shock
No, it wasn't.

00:02:37.32
Nathan Pile
Yes, it was. When I heard the word bear, I was like, how does your spirit bear go witness? um So we're going to be a bear witness out there.

00:02:44.95
Kevin Shock
okay my gosh. All right.

00:02:47.24
Nathan Pile
So make sure you got a good bear costume.

00:02:48.49
Kevin Shock
All right. Okay, here's some information about your host. Nathan is obviously in a mood today, so that's the first point of information. ah We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

00:03:05.46
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:03:16.45
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience. As Nathan said, Romans 8, 14 through 17 from the NRSVUE.

00:03:33.62
Kevin Shock
I'm not going to try to sing it.

00:03:35.12
Nathan Pile
N-R-S-V-U-E.

00:03:42.93
Kevin Shock
Thank you. Okay, here we go. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption.

00:03:57.37
Kevin Shock
When we cry, Abba, Father, it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

00:04:18.18
Kevin Shock
Nathan, I'm going to tell the people that if they're meeting with a group,

00:04:25.95
Kevin Shock
I had a brain fart there.

00:04:26.70
Nathan Pile
yes

00:04:27.61
Kevin Shock
Uh, if you're meeting with a group or with another person, you can pause the podcast and please have conversation with someone else about this text.

00:04:27.64
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:04:35.89
Kevin Shock
Um, but if you're just listening, Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

00:04:42.07
Nathan Pile
Well, Kevin, I'm going to tell the people um that the word that caught my attention this time through um is that that image of the Spirit being the one that is doing the work of proclaiming God.

00:04:59.97
Nathan Pile
So that bearing witness that we're going to talk about in question three.

00:05:04.29
Nathan Pile
um But the thing that that caught my attention as you read it today was that it's the Spirit that is that is doing this piece

00:05:16.29
Nathan Pile
of um testifying, of of witnessing, of proclaiming. And that the spirit, again, that means that the spirit is is in us.

00:05:33.12
Nathan Pile
And so that idea of

00:05:38.32
Nathan Pile
God finding a way through us, in us, with us as a good Lutheran, um,

00:05:52.75
Nathan Pile
of of of God proclaiming the truth in the world about God's self, but through us and and recognizing that, you know, I never consider myself to be a very good, like I've heard better preachers.

00:06:15.61
Nathan Pile
um I've heard, I've read better writers. um I'm an adequate proclaimer. um

00:06:27.53
Nathan Pile
of my own skillset and, and recognizing ah part of this that tells me that, that, that even that adequateness is, is only because of God, which I'm okay with.

00:06:38.54
Nathan Pile
Um, yeah you know, because, because being able to talk about God to, to to remove myself from,

00:06:39.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:06:51.22
Nathan Pile
from anything that I talk about as a human being, just because I'm i'm i'm um'm Nathan focused, I'm me focused, is my orientation.

00:07:02.90
Nathan Pile
that you know That's where we talk about um the brokenness of our relationship with God, we were where we talk about sin, the the me focus of of of me always looking at the world, there's always a me focus to it.

00:07:15.28
Nathan Pile
And so being able to to trust that the Holy Spirit sometimes is stronger than the Nathan spirit of, and so wins out.

00:07:25.51
Nathan Pile
And I actually proclaim something that has meaning about who God is.

00:07:25.56
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:07:30.70
Nathan Pile
Um, in some ways is free. It's freeing that I don't, that it doesn't have to be Nathan that has to to come up with it. Um, uh, but it's also reassuring to me because sometimes I don't feel like, you know, like any, any believer I have doubts about, do I believe, um,

00:07:49.05
Nathan Pile
enough? Do I believe well enough? Do I, um, is my, am I a very good pastor, ah very good proclaimer? All of those, you know, we, I have all of those same doubts as, as others have about themselves. And, and like, I don't really want to preach today because I don't feel like this is a very good sermon.

00:08:06.93
Nathan Pile
You know, those, those, um, Those feelings are are are real for me um at times, not every every time I preach, but they're they're there. ah But knowing that

00:08:22.70
Nathan Pile
the very spirit that we're given from God is the spirit that God works through. to empower us, to help us to proclaim, um, to help us be a witness to others.

00:08:33.84
Nathan Pile
Uh, you know, there's the, I like the the image of that and why it struck me today. Um, I don't know, but the, that piece of the very spirit that we've been given been given, the gift that we've been given also becomes the gift then that we pass on makes complete sense to me.

00:08:52.24
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and, I think in all a bolsters my faith, ah bolsters my faith, but also helps me to be willing to witness again, um recognizing that with God's help, maybe the message I'm delivering has value.

00:09:16.71
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:09:17.91
Nathan Pile
because to be honest again, I don't usually think very highly of of like i think there's other people that are better if if if people were going say well I'm only going to listen to one um one preacher i'd say well let's find you a good preacher to listen to um if you're only listening to one um kind of a thing so ah so like and And it not be me.

00:09:42.65
Nathan Pile
And it not be me. So, like, luckily people aren't that, but so some people can be that regimented, but most people aren't. Most people are willing to hear different, um,

00:09:55.26
Nathan Pile
messages. And so, but this idea of the spirit being the one that comes and helps deliver that message, um I think is, it's freeing might be a word that I would use to describe how it feels um hearing this message.

00:10:08.98
Nathan Pile
ah it takes some of the pressure off of it. But that also means that I need to be in tune with the spirit. So it's kind of a both and um there's a freedom of not feeling like I'm solely responsible for this.

00:10:23.22
Nathan Pile
um, work of, of proclaiming and witnessing to God. But that also means I need to be, I need to be in tune. I need to be listening for the spirit in my life.

00:10:33.72
Nathan Pile
Um, so, so that's what, as you were reading, um, that idea of the very spirit, um,

00:10:46.11
Nathan Pile
is is a part of the part of the very spirit that's a part of us is helping us to to make this um this witness strikes me so what about you my friend what word phrase or image struck you in this passage

00:11:03.10
Kevin Shock
um the The juxtaposition between the spirit of slavery and the spirit of adoption. um I

00:11:15.26
Kevin Shock
ah Slavery is a loaded word and and so I'm. Careful to tread lightly whenever I talk about slavery. um Because I don't know. I have, have no no idea what it's like.

00:11:33.89
Kevin Shock
you know, to endure not, not just, not just literal slavery, but economic slavery, political slavery, cultural slavery.

00:11:47.40
Kevin Shock
um I re you know, with my, with my privilege that we talk pretty openly about the beginning of every episode, I don't know what that feels like.

00:11:55.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:56.11
Kevin Shock
Um, I, Do, well, I think the other thing this is in my mind is because of a book I'm currently reading. um I like to read, though they can be heavy, um books, novels that deal with the black experience and in the U.S.

00:12:22.41
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:12:22.50
Kevin Shock
And right now I'm reading a novel that Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote, which he, I've read his nonfiction before. That's what he's known for. um But the main character, the book's called The Water Dancer. The main character is a, is enslaved, um but also the son of his owner.

00:12:49.19
Kevin Shock
And, And so there's this kind of back and forth about how he has certain privileges in the, in the household because he's the son.

00:12:51.73
Nathan Pile
hmm

00:13:01.32
Kevin Shock
Um, but the part me right now is he's reckoning with the fact that he, he will always be property. He'll always be a slave unless he does something about it.

00:13:09.60
Nathan Pile
hmm

00:13:12.62
Kevin Shock
And, um, so anyway, it, yeah, it that, I think that slavery adoption is in my head partially because of that. But also, um

00:13:24.67
Kevin Shock
I think of this verse or what this verse brings to mind for me is when I go to a congregation and there feels like there's no joy in that place.

00:13:39.95
Kevin Shock
And I think of, I have lots of conversations with people about their ministry. um about the things that they do and the things that they could do and the things that they're afraid to do.

00:13:54.71
Kevin Shock
And I see that spirit of slavery that I think Paul is talking about here because he uses the word to fall back into fear. um I see fear controlling people and they're unable to shake it loose.

00:14:12.62
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:14:13.83
Kevin Shock
And so I'm really, this this verse is meaningful to me because Paul says clearly in this verse that this is not the spirit that God gave us.

00:14:26.18
Kevin Shock
This is another spirit, a different spirit.

00:14:27.78
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:14:29.56
Kevin Shock
ah and And not a benign spirit, an evil spirit that holds us back. And that, and so that um Yeah, I think it's it's good to know that that fear that we live in, I wish that people could recognize that this is not something that's from God.

00:14:54.40
Kevin Shock
this is This is because

00:14:55.20
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:14:57.40
Kevin Shock
it this this is not, the the state that our life is in, the state that our congregation is in, is not what God wants for us.

00:15:08.54
Kevin Shock
and And, you know, I'm... Even think the people get stuck in, you know, we, we would like to be, we need to be bigger. We need to have more youth. We need to do this. We need to do that.

00:15:22.22
Kevin Shock
That's also not the spirit of God. Like that would, that I think if those things were true, that would.

00:15:27.24
Nathan Pile
Yeah, that's the consumer economic model, not a God model.

00:15:31.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right, right, right.

00:15:32.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:15:33.96
Kevin Shock
I think what God wants you to, I think what God wants you to be generally speaking is wants you to be people of joy. who recognize the good news that you have in Jesus Christ and are able to reflect that good news out into the world.

00:15:48.60
Kevin Shock
And you can do that. You don't have to have a church building to do that. You don't have to have a hundred people in worship to do that. um you don't You don't have to be an organized congregation to do that.

00:16:03.79
Kevin Shock
um Although I think community, community is vital. Don't get me wrong. I think you can do it on your own a little bit, but I think we need community to remind ourselves of that, uh, remind one another of the spirit that we've been given.

00:16:18.28
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah. So I, I just, I, I, I think that the, I see a lot of people who live under a spirit of slavery and, and have fallen back into fear.

00:16:35.98
Kevin Shock
Um, but that is clearly not the spirit that we've been given.

00:16:40.19
Nathan Pile
So would you say, would you go as far to say that that fear is a human?

00:16:47.74
Nathan Pile
Is only human?

00:16:51.47
Kevin Shock
Um, what, what do you mean by that question?

00:16:53.53
Nathan Pile
That fear, that fear that that fear that you're talking, like, that that we're, that we have fallen back into.

00:17:02.30
Kevin Shock
I think, I think fear is instinctual.

00:17:06.98
Nathan Pile
Okay. I would agree it would be part of our lizard brain, right? um

00:17:13.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:17:13.86
Nathan Pile
Fight or flight.

00:17:13.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:17:15.31
Nathan Pile
You know, that was an early, an early emotion that we would have received along with our siblings in, in, in the animal kingdom.

00:17:16.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:17:25.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:17:26.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. What, yeah. What, didn't we talk ah recently um about, well, recently within the past six months

00:17:39.86
Kevin Shock
about an-, another option for fight or flight.

00:17:40.02
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:17:43.29
Kevin Shock
I feel like we were, I feel like we were reading something that, um

00:17:53.29
Kevin Shock
well, maybe it was related to it. Oh, maybe, oh, maybe it was that the book. What was that book that I listened to? oh my gosh. Um, it was about trauma and I can't think of the name of I can see the cover in my head, but I can't think of the name of it.

00:18:13.26
Kevin Shock
Anyway, that there was another option for fight or flight. I mean, there are more than options.

00:18:17.93
Nathan Pile
Another name, you mean?

00:18:18.10
Kevin Shock
There's,

00:18:19.14
Nathan Pile
Other than Fight or Flight?

00:18:19.35
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, yeah, there's, there's, um, there's, uh, just looking on the internet quickly, ah PTSD, UK.org, uh, talks and says that there's fight, flight, freeze, fawn and flop.

00:18:32.38
Nathan Pile
Oh, Freeze and,

00:18:32.54
Kevin Shock
Um,

00:18:34.45
Nathan Pile
I heard have heard Freeze, Fawn

00:18:37.87
Kevin Shock
but fawn or flop, which I think I, I, I think that I understand what those mean.

00:18:38.93
Nathan Pile
I don't know that one.

00:18:47.08
Kevin Shock
um but ah But anyway, before we go before we go too far down that road, um I, I swear that there was another, that there were there was a way that researchers and therapists were working with PTSD, people who have PTSD to show them

00:18:49.27
Nathan Pile
I've heard something with freeze. Freeze.

00:18:55.49
Nathan Pile
But it could have been fight. Yeah.

00:19:15.45
Kevin Shock
a positive reaction. And I can't, think I can't think of what it to, yeah, yeah. It was in that book somewhere and I would never be able to find it if I had look for it again. But anyway, ah so I think, I think fear is a, is an instinctual response.

00:19:33.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So it's a human response connected to us.

00:19:35.20
Kevin Shock
And yeah,

00:19:40.63
Nathan Pile
Again, if if if we were going to ah take this the whole way back, that is worried about my survival. So it's me worrying about me more than anything else.

00:19:52.02
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:19:55.71
Nathan Pile
Fear has that. and And it makes complete sense that we would have it, right? It makes sense that if it was, um you know, a saber tooth tiger in myself, ah I'm more worried about me and what the saber tooth tiger is going to do to my, and I'm going to, you know, most likely, you know, flee.

00:20:16.74
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:20:20.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:20:21.56
Nathan Pile
but Kind of a thing. and So it's hard to say that that is sinful in that we're trying to preserve our own life. um

00:20:29.22
Kevin Shock
ah

00:20:29.95
Nathan Pile
But it is a human response.

00:20:34.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I wouldn't I wouldn't um

00:20:37.25
Nathan Pile
The sin comes in when you is when you push your friend towards the saber-toothed tiger and then you run away. That's their story.

00:20:45.11
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, I have I have problem I have problem even talking about that because ah um

00:20:54.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um just Just because I, you know, in an in an instinctual response, I don't know, like sin to me seems malicious. um Now, granted, pushing your friend toward a saber-toothed tiger is malicious, but yeah.

00:21:02.82
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:21:06.30
Nathan Pile
it does feel like That does feel malicious to me.

00:21:09.00
Kevin Shock
Yeah. But I also think that it's

00:21:09.57
Nathan Pile
I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that to you, Kevin.

00:21:11.71
Kevin Shock
but Thank you. Thank you. I, I hope that you I don't think we ever have to worry about encountering a saber tooth tiger. But anyway, oh but I think ah to get us back kind talking about ministry in the church and scripture um there, there is ah the the book, by the way, is called The Body Keeps the Score. That's the book that I read. like I couldn't think of it before.

00:21:35.38
Nathan Pile
The Body Keeps the Score.

00:21:36.04
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, and it it there's some there's some controversy around it, but it it was an interesting book to listen to. um ah Bessel van der Kolk is the author.

00:21:47.91
Kevin Shock
Anyway, um I think, so there's there's fear that comes from encountering a bear in the woods.

00:21:56.57
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:21:56.60
Kevin Shock
And then there's fear that comes from my congregation is going to die.

00:22:02.33
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:22:02.79
Kevin Shock
And those are very different levels of fear. But if you are living in a constant, um are we gonna, ah we going to have enough offering this week to pay the electric bill for this month?

00:22:19.85
Kevin Shock
Then it affects your worship life. It affects your ministry. Fear causes you to turn inward and And it and it does not leave any room for the spirit of God, that spirit of adoption to work in you.

00:22:43.63
Kevin Shock
um I yeah I just ah I mean, this is a conversation I had with a colleague last night that how hard it is, like, I feel like talk till I'm blue in the face with congregations and in things that I write.

00:23:01.55
Kevin Shock
um my latest column in the lutheran letter is about this that if we share the resources that we have with other congregations we're not going to endanger ourselves we're only going to make ourselves healthier overall and that that

00:23:18.86
Nathan Pile
um

00:23:21.42
Kevin Shock
The church does not operate, God does not operate on a um the more they have, the less I have. it's It's not transactional like that.

00:23:33.49
Kevin Shock
it It operates, if we're if we're living in community together, if we're doing ministry together, the church and God operate in the sense of the more they have, the more we all have together.

00:23:47.10
Kevin Shock
And it is so like, I, I think I could, I think I could try to push that point home to people from now until the day I die. And I don't know that I will ever convince anyone of it.

00:24:00.35
Kevin Shock
Um, but I can only convince someone of it if they, if the, the spirit of adoption pushes out that spirit of slavery just for a second. Like I can't do it on my own.

00:24:12.89
Kevin Shock
They need that spirit to help them see it. So any who that's, yeah.

00:24:19.83
Nathan Pile
so But being led by the spirit to be able to see it.

00:24:23.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:24:24.52
Nathan Pile
That's what's going to help break break us of that um that fear of

00:24:24.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:24:27.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:24:35.52
Nathan Pile
um

00:24:39.71
Nathan Pile
of not enough.

00:24:41.08
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah And, and, and,

00:24:41.33
Nathan Pile
The lack of abundance of a

00:24:43.78
Kevin Shock
And the way that we succumb to the spirit of the world instead of the spirit of of God or the spirit of the church is that we tell ourselves to hope that opening up ourselves to other people and other experiences will endanger our own life or experience.

00:25:02.98
Kevin Shock
And I have never found that to be true in my life. the The more that I learn about other people, the more that I experience other people, the more I learn about myself, the more secure I feel in the person that I am, because I'm not just defining myself on my own terms, but I'm defining myself in relationship with other people too.

00:25:27.39
Kevin Shock
and I know that there have been tons of people from my generations and the generations following that who have been told, um If you're a Christian,

00:25:38.63
Kevin Shock
don't um you know be be careful to not associate with people of other religions or people of no religion.

00:25:47.14
Kevin Shock
And my experience has been the more time I have spent, and this happened in college and it happened in seminary for me, the more time I spent with Muslim people, with Sikh people, with Jewish people,

00:26:03.10
Kevin Shock
with ah Krishna consciousness people, the more secure I became in my own faith. And it wasn't a sense of, well, it's because I'm right and they're wrong.

00:26:15.29
Kevin Shock
It was in a sense of they were helping me to see the gift that my faith was to me. And I could see that by seeing the gift that their faith was to them.

00:26:25.61
Kevin Shock
And this is my faith. No one's going to convince me that following Jesus is not the right way to go for for me or or for anyone else who is open to it. um but But that does not mean that I should isolate myself in the world because Jesus did not isolate himself in the world.

00:26:52.51
Kevin Shock
he You know, when whenever whenever his disciples just wanted to go back fishing, he said, no, you you have to go and tend to my people. You have to go and be among my people.

00:27:06.77
Kevin Shock
So that's, yeah. and And his people are every people.

00:27:12.31
Nathan Pile
Right

00:27:13.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay, well, that that ah went off on a bigger tangent than I expected to with that, but thank you.

00:27:20.61
Nathan Pile
Yeah. but Well, but I think it's a a challenging sentence, that verse 15. And being able to wrestle with it um and what it says to us, I think, is important. so And what Paul's trying to say to the people of Rome as he writes the letter.

00:27:37.02
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:27:37.68
Nathan Pile
Because it is a it isn't...

00:27:42.41
Nathan Pile
This is Paul's theological treatise. is This is his big... This is towards the end of his ministry, and he feels like he's got all of the pieces in, but it is also kind of heavy um of of ah trying to discern all of the meaning that he is intending in each of these sentences.

00:28:05.22
Nathan Pile
so

00:28:07.61
Nathan Pile
All right, let's do it a second time, huh?

00:28:09.88
Kevin Shock
Okay. Sounds good.

00:28:14.48
Nathan Pile
um For all who were led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption.

00:28:28.92
Nathan Pile
When we cry, Abba, Father, it is that very spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

00:28:52.32
Nathan Pile
Kevin ah toward what is god calling you in this text

00:28:59.39
Kevin Shock
um I think to call out to God and not just by myself, but with other people as well.

00:29:12.21
Kevin Shock
I I'm I'm struck by that, um by Paul's, just his his phrase there, his clause, when we cry, Abba, Father.

00:29:25.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah. like I think I think that's the first step in in pushing out the spirit of slavery.

00:29:37.16
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:29:37.83
Kevin Shock
um and And I see, again, I I don't want to spend all my time talking about congregations I see, but I see congregations who worry about their life, their ministry.

00:29:48.57
Kevin Shock
And at least when I'm with them, I hardly ever hear them praying about which way they should go.

00:29:59.78
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:30:02.76
Kevin Shock
um

00:30:05.26
Kevin Shock
I think that I think that calling out to God in prayer is is always the starting point and the root of being connected to that spirit from from our end.

00:30:21.26
Kevin Shock
The root from God's end is that the spirit is with us and in us and around us all the time.

00:30:25.63
Nathan Pile
All the time. Yeah.

00:30:26.96
Kevin Shock
the The problem is we have all these other spirits that are fighting for attention.

00:30:30.69
Nathan Pile
Attention, time, bandwidth.

00:30:30.88
Kevin Shock
our attention

00:30:32.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:30:33.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. right and And it's easy because because the spirit is subtle and um

00:30:46.48
Kevin Shock
and maybe if maybe it's even because the spirit is constant that it's easy for her voice to get drowned out.

00:30:54.34
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:30:57.56
Kevin Shock
Like, you know, if you have if you have the background, if you have the radio on all the time, you quit hearing in the words that are said because you, yeah.

00:31:03.57
Nathan Pile
so It's a great image. Yeah, that's a great image.

00:31:08.42
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, but ah she's she's she's there ready to lift your Abba Father up to God and um

00:31:23.23
Kevin Shock
and and to so hold hold you firmly in God's presence, yeah.

00:31:34.13
Kevin Shock
When, yeah, well, you talk about soundtracks, you know, if you have different, when when you have different, I don't even know what you want to call it. When you have different devices all playing a different soundtrack, it's hard to focus on one or it's hard to focus on the one that you, the one that you should be focusing on.

00:31:59.20
Kevin Shock
Or, you know, when you're, when you're in the ocean, one wave as becomes indistinguishable from the next.

00:32:11.47
Kevin Shock
But if the if the spirit of adoption is the one that keeps you buoyant, not the one crashing over your head, that's the one that you wanna pay attention to.

00:32:21.83
Nathan Pile
Right

00:32:28.29
Kevin Shock
Boy, I feel like I could just metaphor the heck out of this.

00:32:30.48
Nathan Pile
yeah you could just look. Well, and but again, I think it's it's it's important. I think I'm going to share mine here because there's a ah segue to what you're sharing there.

00:32:38.31
Kevin Shock
ah

00:32:42.92
Kevin Shock
Yes, please do.

00:32:44.95
Nathan Pile
um So I feel called to be a child of God. And what I mean by that in this passage is that when you're infant, you when when When you have a new infant that's brought into your family and and they hand the infant to you, like that alert state of the child when they have the really big eyes. I'm looking at Kevin with a big bug-eyed look.

00:33:17.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah. like that their eyes are huge and you're just kind of like, wow, you're taking in the whole world right now.

00:33:23.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:33:24.06
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:33:24.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:33:24.64
Nathan Pile
They're, they're working at becoming of recognizing themselves and recognizing you, right. They're, they're, that that you know Yes, imprinting is going on, all of the things that we need for basic survival as a species that we've adapted to over um hundreds of thousands of years.

00:33:32.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:33:44.53
Nathan Pile
Yes, imprinting that you are a family member, you are you know parent. Again, being able to, at some point in time, be able to vocalize and verbalize mama, papa, you

00:33:58.13
Nathan Pile
kind of that piece, but that early, that piece of, of being able to recognize others and at the same time, recognizing ourselves, like that's the, um that's the root of childhood.

00:34:10.34
Nathan Pile
That's what childhood is about. It's what we spend time at camp thinking about, okay, you're here for a week. What kinds of things can we help? What ways can we help you belong?

00:34:21.89
Nathan Pile
Right. What ways can we help campers and, and if you're here for the whole summer, staff members, um, in their process of, of recognizing and being recognized.

00:34:27.79
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:34:35.10
Nathan Pile
Um, but so to be a child means that's what we're doing. And so as the spirit makes us children of God, how are we building off of what you said?

00:34:47.61
Nathan Pile
How are we discerning the wave that keeps us buoyant? Well, we're recognizing that we're that it's born that that it's keeping us afloat and not dunking us under the weight.

00:35:02.20
Nathan Pile
But there's a part of us as children ah as the children of God is we have to be

00:35:03.17
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

00:35:12.19
Nathan Pile
Again, for for um a homage to our ah podcast, tending our own um our own nurturing of trying of of being a child of God, working to recognize who we are, but also recognizing the patterns of being a child of God in others.

00:35:35.86
Nathan Pile
And so being able to do that, being able to recognize the spirit helps us to know when we when we found the wave that bolsters us, that that supports us, that keeps us afloat, um as opposed to the the waves that dunk us under, that drag us under, that that you know that undertow piece that that you can experience at the ocean as well. So,

00:36:06.19
Nathan Pile
um

00:36:08.76
Nathan Pile
you know, that that's what, like, some of being the children of God is simply, let's be the children of God. let's Let's practice having our eyes open and eventually learning the language.

00:36:25.08
Nathan Pile
that is that is a part of the community so that um as the spirit inspires us, we are able to use the words of of connection um with God, but also with one another.

00:36:39.09
Nathan Pile
So...

00:36:39.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:36:39.78
Nathan Pile
um

00:36:40.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And well, and, um,

00:36:45.89
Kevin Shock
ah

00:36:49.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I, um that may that just that metaphor makes me think of something else that I think I probably want wait till the third question to talk about. But yeah, if it if it's still if it's still in my head at that point.

00:36:58.72
Nathan Pile
OK. OK.

00:37:08.65
Kevin Shock
I'm just going to say quickly, I think that the um language, having the right language isn't even necessary to bear witness.

00:37:19.59
Kevin Shock
is all I mean. That's all I want to say.

00:37:25.33
Kevin Shock
and And then I can, you can remind me of that.

00:37:27.11
Nathan Pile
And talk about it in the third question.

00:37:28.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah. To talk about the third question.

00:37:29.24
Nathan Pile
We'll talk about it a third time.

00:37:30.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:37:33.30
Nathan Pile
Okay.

00:37:36.70
Nathan Pile
All right. So you want to do it a third time?

00:37:40.57
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Unless you have anything to say about the second one.

00:37:44.83
Nathan Pile
No, I just said about my second one.

00:37:47.41
Kevin Shock
I know, but I know, but if there's anything else, yeah, anything additionally.

00:37:48.35
Nathan Pile
Oh, you mean additionally more? Yeah. no um ah I, I'm with you. I think well will, anything else that would come up can fall under that third

00:38:01.23
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:38:02.05
Nathan Pile
ah third witness.

00:38:07.77
Kevin Shock
Okay. Well, let's look then at Romans 8.

00:38:09.02
Nathan Pile
All right.

00:38:11.79
Kevin Shock
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, Abba, Father, it is that very spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

00:38:28.28
Kevin Shock
And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

00:38:42.99
Kevin Shock
Sorry, I was, I, something else caught me in that reading this time. but so

00:38:47.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:38:48.24
Kevin Shock
I was ah processing there. ah Nathan, um what how I have to find the tab again.

00:38:55.41
Kevin Shock
How does your spirit spirit bear witness?

00:38:58.79
Nathan Pile
um I, I too was in my own thought vortex about that third reading this time.

00:39:05.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

00:39:06.90
Nathan Pile
um A different word also stuck out to me.

00:39:09.52
Kevin Shock
Yep. Me too.

00:39:09.97
Nathan Pile
um the the The piece of um of this witness... um

00:39:25.49
Nathan Pile
Like... how does my spirit do this? Uh,

00:39:33.94
Nathan Pile
I think I go back to a little bit of the, our first part of the question, which was, I'm really thankful that, that God helps with that.

00:39:43.12
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:39:43.19
Nathan Pile
Um, because I think it can be an intimidating, ah calling, can, it can lead me to, to, um,

00:39:56.76
Nathan Pile
to be called to be a witness to God, um I think brings up anxiety and trepidation in all human beings at some level.

00:40:07.95
Nathan Pile
um And so the idea of of

00:40:15.61
Nathan Pile
me doing that alone is a bit, um you know, makes me uncomfortable.

00:40:27.37
Nathan Pile
ah

00:40:27.90
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:40:28.39
Nathan Pile
the idea of the Holy Spirit also being with me to help do that. I think, again, I use, I use this word in the towards the end of my my first response.

00:40:40.05
Nathan Pile
um I think there's some freedom in that. It gives me a little bit of... ah of reassurance that it's not just me, but they're building off of my, my second response.

00:40:54.04
Nathan Pile
There's also this community. If I'm, if I'm living with the other children of God, as I recognize others bearing witness, it bolsters me bearing witness.

00:41:09.64
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:41:09.69
Nathan Pile
So that gives me a little, that also gives me a little bit of confidence to put myself out there to bear witness. um And so the Holy Spirit, I think is, the Holy Spirit itself gives me confidence, but it also builds the community of which also helps

00:41:35.67
Nathan Pile
me, you know, that helps my spirit.

00:41:38.37
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:41:39.99
Nathan Pile
so the like that So that's kind of a two-fold thing there. um in that that the spirit provides for my my own anxiety and self-doubt.

00:41:52.21
Nathan Pile
But the though spirit is also bolstering the community in which I reside and in which I am learning and imprinting from myself.

00:42:02.49
Kevin Shock
Mm, mm, mm, oh man.

00:42:02.53
Nathan Pile
that that they're gonna teach me. um you know One of the way things that we talk about from time to time is the um the different ways that the church have, has functioned.

00:42:15.21
Nathan Pile
And so um today we say that that that oftentimes when somebody comes to the church, they they come to seek belonging first. um

00:42:26.56
Kevin Shock
as As well they should.

00:42:26.65
Nathan Pile
And then, is but so they come looking for belonging. then they um Then they will do the practices of the church. So they'll behave in the and the traditions of the church.

00:42:37.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

00:42:40.48
Nathan Pile
And finally, they might believe in the end.

00:42:41.19
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:42:43.94
Nathan Pile
right Whereas a a few generations ago, that order was different.

00:42:44.74
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:42:49.49
Kevin Shock
When you and I grew up,

00:42:49.49
Nathan Pile
it was When we grew up, it was believe first, behave, believe the right thing, behave in the ways of the church, and then you belong.

00:42:53.92
Kevin Shock
that is believe the right thing.

00:43:01.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:02.33
Nathan Pile
um And so there's been a shift of how the church functions.

00:43:02.83
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:43:10.64
Nathan Pile
And so that speaks about how the community functions and how the community is about seeking change.

00:43:11.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:43:18.54
Nathan Pile
um And so belonging important. it seems a little bit more biological, meaning a little bit more back to our humanity. When we're an infant, we are looking to belong.

00:43:29.12
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:43:32.71
Nathan Pile
um Who looks like me You know, I'm looking for faces. I'm trying to identify who you are. and I'm trying to, I will start to meal mirror your behaviors and mannerisms.

00:43:46.63
Nathan Pile
You know, people, a couple of weeks ago, there was an event here and, um,

00:43:46.70
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:43:51.87
Nathan Pile
ah a friend of camp said to me, Oh, your your mannerisms are just like your dad. Well, you know, I watched the guy for, you know, 18 years. he was like a part of my everyday actions.

00:44:04.31
Nathan Pile
And so there was things that I picked up.

00:44:05.64
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:44:05.91
Nathan Pile
Sure. and Like, I don't know that I'm acting just like him. It was not that I like stood in front of the mirror as a child and said, how can I look just like my dad when I do something? It's just something ah that over time,

00:44:17.30
Nathan Pile
um we pick up, right? we That imprinting is happening to us. And so how do we now as the as as people, how do we help others belong?

00:44:28.03
Nathan Pile
and then um And then the bull the the the behavior um and the believing will come. And so I do think it's ah maybe a little bit more natural.

00:44:40.59
Nathan Pile
um We're getting back to what I would say are more natural rhythms

00:44:49.02
Nathan Pile
instead of you have to you have to believe first. um You know, your your family said, believe this. This is what you believe. This is what you should do. um

00:44:59.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:45:00.53
Nathan Pile
And there wasn't enough why in that, probably, those explanations that have left many of us who have been connected to God kind of asking lots of questions and saying, what are we trying to do?

00:45:15.64
Nathan Pile
but Why are we going to church? Why is this important?

00:45:17.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:18.22
Nathan Pile
um And so, well, because you have to believe.

00:45:19.20
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:45:21.09
Nathan Pile
No, we'll get to believe. give us time to, to belong, um, to develop that community piece.

00:45:28.55
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:45:30.55
Nathan Pile
So, um, so that, so community, again, as I said, self-confidence, uh, the spirit helps to do that for me personally, but then it, but it also is forming a whole bunch of people to be more self-confident, thereby creating a community, um, that bears witness to who God is.

00:45:31.94
Kevin Shock
Right. right

00:45:49.59
Nathan Pile
And so, um, so to me, that's how the spirit, um,

00:45:57.21
Nathan Pile
that's how God is is in infusing me to be a part of the spirit. And then now as a leader in the church and a leader at camp, obviously I strive to create community that, that belong, um, behave and, and believe.

00:46:14.29
Nathan Pile
Um, and that third piece of believe is, is, is out there. Um, um ah So if I can make you feel like, um not make you feel, but if the community that we're that we're fostering and and creating at camp for a summer, if at the end of the summer you feel like you belong, um and maybe you've picked up some of our behavior, that's a pretty successful summer.

00:46:41.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right.

00:46:42.48
Nathan Pile
And if you've been here for 10 years, maybe you're you've come to the place of bel-, of belief.

00:46:43.23
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:46:47.43
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:46:47.67
Nathan Pile
Um, but that can't be my goal from the, like, I have to make sure you believe if that's what I'm doing the first day that you walk in here, we're not, I don't, I don't believe we'll be, we'll be successful.

00:46:48.15
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:47:00.93
Kevin Shock
No, no, because it's not, it's not how people learn. It's not how children learn.

00:47:05.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:06.86
Kevin Shock
And and that I heard ah yeah I heard that thing that you laid out, the the flipping of the ah believing believing, behaving, belonging. um

00:47:17.31
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:47:17.82
Kevin Shock
I heard that for the first time from Pastor Paul Hoffman at a seminar years ago.

00:47:22.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:47:22.78
Kevin Shock
He's a Lutheran pastor, retired Lutheran pastor, still does a lot of great stuff. um And it but it clicked for me.

00:47:31.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:47:31.79
Kevin Shock
It clicked for me. And I know that like, You know, back when we lived in a culture where there was an expectation of um

00:47:42.72
Kevin Shock
church was, church was an expectation.

00:47:45.36
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:47:45.83
Kevin Shock
We could go in and we could learn things like the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, all that stuff. ah I mean, years ago, but maybe my parents' generation or maybe even my grandparents' generation, I'm not sure.

00:47:57.23
Kevin Shock
It was different when I was growing up. But kids didn't receive their first communion until they were confirmed. until they could stand up in front of everyone and say the creed in the Lord's Prayer and talk about what it means and things like that.

00:48:10.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:48:11.21
Kevin Shock
um

00:48:11.61
Nathan Pile
Yup.

00:48:12.54
Kevin Shock
Now, my philosophy is, I mean, by the time I was growing up at in in the congregation where I was, it moved down to fifth grade. Now I know in a lot of congregations, it's even younger.

00:48:24.27
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:48:24.59
Kevin Shock
I have communed to children on the day of their baptism because that's what the faith teaches is the entry point. to the community meal.

00:48:34.04
Nathan Pile
Yup.

00:48:36.37
Kevin Shock
And, um, and I mean, I've done it with infants. I, you know, I, uh, dip my pinky finger in the, in the chalice and let them suck on it.

00:48:47.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:48:48.06
Kevin Shock
Like that's, that's communion and, um, kids.

00:48:50.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:48:57.31
Kevin Shock
pick that stuff up and then somehow a I'm, I am, I am dumbfounded and I know it's because we're intellectual beings and we think we have everything figured out. I don't know when we lose, like, ah like a kid who is being mistreated will still seek love from the person that they're being, who's mistreating them.

00:49:16.38
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:49:16.78
Kevin Shock
And, um, and, I say that to say it is it is instinctual for children to seek love and seek belonging.

00:49:29.02
Kevin Shock
And I don't know when that gets worked out of us. um But I think having an understanding where people, I think a church who has an understanding that people just want to belong will will be a successful church.

00:49:49.02
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:49:49.75
Kevin Shock
Well, however you measure success, I don't know. Um, but, but it's natural that if people feel like they belong, they start to pattern the behavior of the people who are making them feel like they belong.

00:49:52.52
Nathan Pile
Sure. Sure.

00:50:00.72
Kevin Shock
And then before you know it, these P these same people, uh, who perhaps have never sat in a confirmation class, begin to understand that, oh, these people are doing this because they, they love Jesus.

00:50:18.26
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:50:21.12
Kevin Shock
it like We get so wrapped up on thinking the right thing, believing the right thing. um and and And it's just not helpful. It's not helpful. I don't, I don't know why.

00:50:33.12
Kevin Shock
I don't know why we still as a church... um

00:50:38.83
Kevin Shock
um like I think I think we get our rituals backwards. Right? um ah you know A lot of kids have to go to First Communion class before they receive Communion.

00:50:49.86
Kevin Shock
I don't know why they don't receive it first and then learn about it afterward.

00:50:53.27
Nathan Pile
right

00:50:55.09
Kevin Shock
Same with confirmation. like You want to confirm your faith? let's Good. let's Let's affirm your faith and let the congregation confirm it.

00:51:02.91
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

00:51:05.06
Kevin Shock
And then and then we will go through a course where we where you learn about the faith. um Because That's how much we love you.

00:51:17.12
Kevin Shock
And that's how much God loves you. That we're going to welcome you in and then you can learn.

00:51:25.85
Kevin Shock
And that's the way, you know, we've been reading a lot in this Easter season from the book of Acts. It's the way it happens in the early church too.

00:51:33.07
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:51:34.30
Kevin Shock
Peter, yeah, you know, Peter peter sees

00:51:34.51
Nathan Pile
Over and over and over again.

00:51:39.58
Kevin Shock
Peter goes and talks to people. They don't even respond. And he sees the Holy Spirit being poured out on them. and And so then he says, well, I guess we have to get water now.

00:51:51.74
Kevin Shock
Since God already welcomed you in, the the human the human community has to welcome you in too.

00:51:53.64
Nathan Pile
That's right. Yeah.

00:51:57.41
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:51:58.97
Kevin Shock
and And I think that's the way it should be. So that raises a question for me, what I just said there. How does Peter know when Peter sees... the Holy Spirit being poured out like on Cornelius's household.

00:52:10.90
Kevin Shock
What's the sign? How does he know? Do they receive tongues of fire? are they are they talking Are they speaking in tongues? I don't think that that's the case necessarily because it's a different context.

00:52:23.45
Kevin Shock
But Peter know, Peter witnesses the Spirit being poured out on them.

00:52:27.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:52:28.34
Kevin Shock
So maybe it's in maybe it's what they say. Maybe it's in their demeanor. I don't know.

00:52:35.52
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:52:36.09
Kevin Shock
But that takes me back to my answer for the third question. And that is, I don't, I don't think that words are even necessary for your spirit for yeah for my spirit to bear witness to the Holy Spirit.

00:52:50.62
Kevin Shock
um This is the same chapter in Romans where ah Paul says, ah when you don't know what to pray, the spirit intercedes for you with sighs too deep for words.

00:53:05.56
Kevin Shock
The spirit intercedes for you by breathing, not by saying the right thing, by breathing. and um And I'm sure that God hears wordless prayers.

00:53:16.86
Kevin Shock
So I'm also sure then that human beings who are open to the spirit see wordless praise and joy in someone else.

00:53:29.62
Kevin Shock
And frankly, going back to what I was talking about back the beginning of the hour, If someone shows up at a church and everyone seems like they're happy to be there and they're happy to have someone new show up, that person will come back.

00:53:46.58
Kevin Shock
It doesn't matter what kind of praise band you have. It doesn't matter how eloquent your pastor is or even whether you have a pastor.

00:53:49.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Right. right

00:53:53.12
Kevin Shock
if you are If you are truly joyous to be there joy and and and the place is filled with joy and you welcome someone one in a joyful manner, they will be back.

00:54:09.66
Kevin Shock
I, you know, I wish I could, I wish I could get people to understand that.

00:54:17.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:54:18.51
Kevin Shock
if you keep to If someone comes into a church, you keep to yourself, ah or even frankly, if if more than 50% of the people keep to themselves, um that person may not come back.

00:54:33.63
Kevin Shock
it would it would take It would take a strong connection. or Or just that person's sheer will to come back to that place.

00:54:43.55
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:54:44.50
Kevin Shock
yeah Or something that the spirit is doing that we don't understand. but So I think, I think that um I think that my spirit bears witness best whenever I keep my mouth shut.

00:54:57.46
Kevin Shock
Not always, not always, but but maybe not when I keep my mouth shut. But I think that the content of my of what I'm saying is not as necessarily important as the spirit in which I deliver it.

00:55:12.75
Nathan Pile
Well, yeah your comment of joy, if a community of joy exists,

00:55:23.03
Nathan Pile
people will feel like they want to belong.

00:55:26.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:55:27.00
Nathan Pile
And joy can be experienced

00:55:31.37
Nathan Pile
by simple simple language.

00:55:33.90
Kevin Shock
It can be, yeah.

00:55:35.67
Nathan Pile
without words, you know, body language can, can, can, um, if you walk in and you see people hugging and laughing and smiling and, and you can't see, hear them, but maybe they're telling a story and other people are fully engaged with that.

00:55:36.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:55:51.79
Nathan Pile
Like it shows you, um, a joy for life together.

00:55:53.13
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:55:57.35
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:55:58.21
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:56:01.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah, that's an it's a an interesting way of thinking about how do we

00:56:11.02
Nathan Pile
How do we we focus our attention there? Not that we can at some point get deep and go into farther, but how do we first create that space?

00:56:23.97
Nathan Pile
For ourselves and for the community that gathers that is joyous.

00:56:30.17
Kevin Shock
Mhm

00:56:32.80
Nathan Pile
um

00:56:35.69
Nathan Pile
And then it takes some imprinting for us to be able to make that happen.

00:56:41.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah. um I mean, you know, I, I visit other congregations. I visit lots of congregations in, in my, my work, my travels.

00:56:56.72
Kevin Shock
Um, But also when I when I'm like on vacation, I go to church.

00:57:03.16
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:57:03.91
Kevin Shock
I wanna see what's going on elsewhere in the church. um And I think that the um congregation where in recent memory where I felt most welcome was ah Trinity Lutheran in Kent, Ohio.

00:57:21.74
Kevin Shock
And um it really was because

00:57:28.96
Kevin Shock
the the people who were there seemed like they were excited to be there. and and And the way that they interacted with one another. And they had obviously, now they they had been going, I found out while I was there, that they had been going through a process to become an affirming church, a reconciling in Christ church.

00:57:51.97
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:57:52.04
Kevin Shock
um So they had specific beliefs. they were They were doing specific things to work on their welcome to people.

00:57:59.49
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:57:59.52
Kevin Shock
um But they um the way that people directed me, invited me in, um you know like like show- showed me things before I even knew to ask for them.

00:58:14.69
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:58:15.62
Kevin Shock
um But then also just the way that they introduced themselves to me.

00:58:22.55
Kevin Shock
Like mind-blowing. Like I'm getting choked up thinking about it.

00:58:29.07
Nathan Pile
So how did they introduce themselves to you?

00:58:35.79
Kevin Shock
um

00:58:39.87
Kevin Shock
I think this is affecting me because I go to so many places where I'm not welcome in the church. And I'm sick of it, Nathan.

00:58:45.57
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:58:46.67
Kevin Shock
I'm tired of it. I'm tired of it. um, places that are without joy.

00:58:54.43
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:58:54.83
Kevin Shock
So um anyway, okay, that helped me get past my... ah No, I mean, what's what's getting me choked up is the experience I had there, not the experiences I have now. It's just the the um the divergent nature of the two that upsets me. um They introduce themselves to me.

00:59:16.84
Kevin Shock
Sounds weird to say, as though they should already know me.

00:59:21.13
Kevin Shock
and And somebody literally said that to me that morning. He said, hi I'm so-and-so. I feel like I should know your name, but I don't remember it.

00:59:34.33
Kevin Shock
And I said, ah you shouldn't know my name. I've never been here before. um

00:59:41.98
Kevin Shock
But it was it it was really, it wasn't just the it wasn't the words. It was the spirit in which he said it, too.

00:59:51.56
Kevin Shock
His spirit said, I want to know you.

01:00:00.41
Nathan Pile
And so how do we become communities of, of joy and belonging first?

01:00:09.84
Kevin Shock
and And right in communities that promote belonging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The biggest thing is we have to get over ourselves.

01:00:18.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:00:19.41
Kevin Shock
We have to get over our fear. We have to get over our ah how cool we think we are. but We have to get over our entitlement.

01:00:32.26
Kevin Shock
And we have to cry out Abba Father and recognize we're all children.

01:00:37.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:00:38.38
Kevin Shock
We're all children who have space to learn and and need to belong and are tasked with the ministry of helping others belong.

01:00:41.84
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

01:00:48.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

01:00:53.34
Kevin Shock
Yep.

01:00:57.00
Kevin Shock
Oh, there's a lot unpack there because now I'm thinking of all kinds of, you know, people ask me, why are why are these non-denominational churches exploding while we're struggling? Well, right like ah they get people connected.

01:01:11.23
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01:11.25
Kevin Shock
They make people feel like they belong the moment they walk in the door.

01:01:15.02
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01:15.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Now, they could make them feel like they belong in other places, like they could baptize their children and things like that, but they still have to believe before they can belong in that manner.

01:01:26.11
Nathan Pile
Right.

01:01:26.64
Kevin Shock
But that's a different, that's a different theology than what we have.

01:01:26.84
Nathan Pile
Sure.

01:01:29.20
Kevin Shock
So yeah.

01:01:30.10
Nathan Pile
Right.

01:01:31.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:01:31.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01:34.05
Kevin Shock
Anywho. All right. um Anything else to add?

01:01:38.12
Nathan Pile
No, I, I appreciate the way this is where this has gone today.

01:01:38.99
Kevin Shock
We should.

01:01:42.82
Nathan Pile
um And this where this text has taken us and and thinking about it, especially as I prepare to go into my summer ah with summer staff, this idea of of joy and belonging.

01:01:43.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, me too. Yeah.

01:01:56.58
Nathan Pile
If we can be if we simplify our summer to be about joy and belonging for the summer staff, that's I want it for the campers, too, but. I'm, I'm in the mode of thinking about our summer and, and what we're going to do with our summer staff.

01:02:13.50
Nathan Pile
Um, and so being able to,

01:02:19.28
Nathan Pile
to focus my intention around joy and belonging, um, and, and at some point sprinkle in some behaving, but not worrying about right belief.

01:02:32.02
Kevin Shock
yeah

01:02:33.63
Nathan Pile
Um,

01:02:34.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah well yeah behaving

01:02:35.59
Nathan Pile
as we build community this year.

01:02:40.03
Kevin Shock
Behaving is the natural offshoot of belonging, I think.

01:02:44.55
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:45.93
Kevin Shock
I don't even think you have to teach people. You don't have to teach children how to behave. the, I know I know kids are ready for their first communion whenever they come up to me with an open hand.

01:02:56.32
Nathan Pile
But they open their hand. I'm like,

01:02:57.81
Kevin Shock
it Why?

01:02:58.61
Nathan Pile
yep

01:02:58.93
Kevin Shock
Because they see everyone else doing it.

01:03:00.68
Nathan Pile
right.

01:03:01.31
Kevin Shock
They know that this is a meal for everybody. And when they finally get to

01:03:04.60
Nathan Pile
until we Until we don't give it to them Until you don't give it to

01:03:07.31
Kevin Shock
when they finally get to the understanding of, um well, if I, if I want this, I just have to hold out my hand. They do it.

01:03:15.12
Nathan Pile
him. Right?

01:03:16.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:18.04
Nathan Pile
Yeah

01:03:19.13
Kevin Shock
And I, I would I would stop just short of the line of getting into an argument with a parent at the communion rail. Yeah.

01:03:29.64
Nathan Pile
Sure.

01:03:31.09
Kevin Shock
Because my my instinct is as a pastor of the church is to place the meal, put it in their hand.

01:03:37.66
Nathan Pile
Put it in there. Yeah. Yeah. If you know enough to, that you want to be like everybody else and you play set, you open that hand, that's a hard, that's a hard thing for me not to put it into there, a piece of bread into their hand.

01:03:40.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah. then

01:03:50.34
Kevin Shock
Right, right. And and if, if um if their hand is grabbed and pulled back,

01:04:00.94
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:04:01.22
Kevin Shock
That's a hard thing to unteach.

01:04:03.60
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:05.57
Kevin Shock
That's what I think people don't recognize.

01:04:09.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah. ah You know, what ah like, what what are our what are our biblical what are our biblical standards? Jesus didn't ask people if he if they trusted in him before he fed them.

01:04:24.82
Nathan Pile
Right.

01:04:24.86
Kevin Shock
They had already showed up. they

01:04:28.02
Nathan Pile
yeah

01:04:28.11
Kevin Shock
He knew they were interested.

01:04:28.76
Nathan Pile
Right. Right. right

01:04:30.86
Kevin Shock
And so he fed them.

01:04:32.24
Nathan Pile
right

01:04:33.04
Kevin Shock
And and when the when the Ethiopian eunuch

01:04:36.66
Nathan Pile
What's to keep me from being baptized?

01:04:37.04
Kevin Shock
sir says says to Philip, here's water. What's to prevent me from being baptized?

01:04:45.60
Kevin Shock
He baptizes him. Because that's how it's supposed to happen.

01:04:49.74
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah

01:04:51.53
Kevin Shock
That's why every congregation should have a full font every Sunday.

01:04:54.36
Nathan Pile
All the time. Ready to go.

01:04:55.83
Kevin Shock
Right. right Not because it's Catholic holy water. But because if if someone shows up and needs to be baptized, you're ready for it.

01:05:04.15
Nathan Pile
We're ready for it.

01:05:05.50
Kevin Shock
You're ready for it.

01:05:07.32
Nathan Pile
It's another great image. um Yeah, this has been great. So let's, well, we're going wrap it up though.

01:05:13.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

01:05:17.01
Nathan Pile
um

01:05:17.33
Kevin Shock
Yes.

01:05:18.41
Nathan Pile
um So additional texts um for this week. ah This is the week of Pentecost, which is the week we celebrate the spirit coming upon um the world.

01:05:32.73
Nathan Pile
And so Acts 2 verses 1 through 21, filled with the Spirit to tell God's deeds. Again, this is the beginning of the book of Acts or the Acts of the Apostles, or as Kevin and i like to say, the Acts of the Holy Spirit.

01:05:47.46
Nathan Pile
um Genesis 11 verses 1 through 9 is an alternate um first lesson reading. God destroys the Tower of Babel. ah And

01:05:57.47
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah.

01:05:59.97
Nathan Pile
but that's And that's interesting. Well, I don't want to get into it because we're already over. um

01:06:04.68
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:05.30
Nathan Pile
But I, I read I read a sub stack right now called um After Babble, which is um when when what what we're doing with these cell phones right now.

01:06:05.61
Kevin Shock
I, I,

01:06:14.60
Nathan Pile
And so how do we and do we deconstruct what we um thought was super super amazing, but how do we deconstruct it so that we can um live together better?

01:06:15.78
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:06:26.87
Nathan Pile
so ah Psalm 104, 24 through 34 and verse 35b. Send forth your spirit and renew the face of the earth.

01:06:37.78
Nathan Pile
And then ah the gospel is John the 14th chapter 8 through 20 8 through And then also you can to um The father will give you another advocate and oh and that is the promise of the gift of the the Holy Spirit and the spirit of truth, um which again in god John's gospel truth is is a big deal.

01:07:00.52
Nathan Pile
And so here the spirit is what brings truth to the world. So. um As always, Kevin, um blessed to have conversations and to tend my faith with you weekly. And for those who are listening, again, we invite you to engage with us on our social medias and share your reflections.

01:07:25.49
Nathan Pile
We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:07:29.55
Kevin Shock
And peace.