Episode 34: John 16:12-15

Translation: The Message (MSG)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What does Jesus say that is hard for you to handle?

Additional texts:

Proverbs 8:1-4, 22-31

Psalm 8

Romans 5:1-5

Transcript

00:01.44
Kevin Shock
Well, isn't it a lovely day? I don't know if it is when you're listening to this.

00:04.26
Nathan Pile
It is. It is. It's a beautiful day today.

00:06.29
Kevin Shock
um It's a fine day today. It's still gray and cloudy, but it's it's just a fine day. um And ah it's a good time to look at scripture with Nathan, as is always the case.

00:23.08
Kevin Shock
So today we are going to be looking at John 16 verses 12 through 15. verse twelve through fifteen Uh, we are going to be using the message translation, uh, or paraphrase, which is not something we commonly use, but it's something that I chose for today, Nathan.

00:42.54
Kevin Shock
So deal with it.

00:43.44
Nathan Pile
All right. I like me some paraphrase.

00:45.98
Kevin Shock
Uh,

00:48.73
Nathan Pile
So.

00:49.86
Kevin Shock
okay. Uh, the three questions we're looking at today, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text?

01:00.09
Kevin Shock
And what does Jesus say that is hard for you to handle? um It could be Jesus.

01:11.38
Kevin Shock
It could be the spirit. It could be God. Insert whichever person of the deity you want to in there. ah But that's the question. What does Jesus say that is hard for you to handle?

01:24.53
Nathan Pile
um Some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

01:37.72
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of the this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

01:52.16
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

01:59.70
Nathan Pile
John, the 16th chapter.

02:04.54
Nathan Pile
I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them now. But when the friend comes, the Spirit comes. the spirit of truth He will take you by the hand and guide you into all the truth there is.

02:20.40
Nathan Pile
He won't draw attention to himself, but will make sense out of what is about to happen and indeed out of all that I have done and said.

02:32.52
Nathan Pile
He will honor me. He will take from me and deliver it to you. Everything the Father has is also mine. That is why I've said, he takes from me and delivers to you.

02:48.70
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Or you can listen along here as Kevin answers what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text.

03:04.51
Kevin Shock
ah Let me find it. I lost it. Oh, he won't draw attention to himself.

03:13.99
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

03:15.64
Kevin Shock
um I ah yeah ah that's a, I think that's that's har- that's a little hard for me to unpack.

03:27.05
Kevin Shock
ah because there's a lot of talk in these four short short verses about unity um what the father shares with Jesus and what the spirit speaks from God and Jesus um but ah there's something about

03:53.16
Kevin Shock
I just ah I appreciate the line, he won't draw attention to himself. um

03:59.45
Kevin Shock
I think I think that this is... don't

04:04.06
Kevin Shock
know. The spirit is not needy.

04:07.54
Kevin Shock
but The spirit also does not act on her own or of her own accord. um

04:20.23
Kevin Shock
And I think that that is... I think that that being how the spirit operates is a compelling thing for me to think about.

04:33.45
Kevin Shock
um

04:37.07
Kevin Shock
I don't want to, and don't want to listen to somebody who draws attention to themselves, I guess.

04:46.99
Kevin Shock
So I guess it's appealing to me too that the spirit doesn't draw attention to herself.

04:49.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

04:57.09
Nathan Pile
Well, and yeah.

05:02.11
Nathan Pile
No, I'm not going to. The thing that caught my attention was right after what you there are kind of identifying, which is that not only do they come and not draw attention to themselves, but they help make sense of about what's happening.

05:18.54
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

05:19.23
Nathan Pile
and And so that was the part that kind of stuck out to me of um that the Holy Spirit is is going to allow

05:33.36
Nathan Pile
or or help guide me in some way to help me understand those things that are complex and specifically John is writing here about the things that are happening in Jesus's life. This is Jesus talking. So um when the friend comes, the friend is going to help make sense out of what's happened.

05:55.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

05:56.72
Nathan Pile
And so your image um put with that is even better because they're not the the Holy Spirit coming. Isn't trying to get my attention to focus on the Holy Spirit, but rather to be.

06:10.43
Nathan Pile
Focusing on the things of God and so not getting in the way, but but absolutely coming to To teach Me to teach us To make sense out of what has happened um There's plenty of things in my life that don't make make sense and so it would be a would be I'm always kind of yearning that you know, that's a a

06:36.37
Nathan Pile
In my young adult years, I can remember that yearning question in my prayers often was, help me understand this better, Lord or or God. and and and and

06:45.09
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

06:46.66
Nathan Pile
And that question um doesn't roll off my tongues as often. in my adult years here, but it's still, it is still something that I pray at times. But I remember as a young adult trying to figure out my, my, how God was calling me to serve in the world and, and how, how I was even to understand my relationship with God.

07:11.69
Nathan Pile
There was lots of that kind of helped me understand this better Lord. And so to know that the spirit has been sent a, as a um as a gift to make sense out of things that are happening around us and in our world.

07:29.32
Nathan Pile
Again, not on our timeline, um, but, um, but is there to kind of make help, help me make sense of the world, um, and God's love in it and God's call to live in it.

07:32.82
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

07:43.75
Nathan Pile
Um, Yeah, I like the the second part of that was what caught my attention, but I like it even more as you articulate that piece of

07:56.28
Nathan Pile
of that the spirit hasn't come to draw attention to to itself. um You know, I'm a camp director and so oftentimes when I have to to, or if I'm trying to engage a large group of people, you do have to draw attention to yourself, right? Like it's you're trying to gather everybody and do something with them.

08:16.39
Nathan Pile
um but somehow the Holy Spirit comes in comes at this in a completely different way than that in my head is the way, oh, this is the way extroverted Nathan knows how to control a crowd. And so I'm gonna raise my voice. I'm gonna say, the Lord be with you if it's a group of Lutheran Christians.

08:33.81
Nathan Pile
um I know, which drives Kevin crazy. But being able to but being able to um think about what is it that, you know, we have a field trip group here today. And so one of the things we do at in camp is we raise our hand. You know, that's how we tell everybody we want them to get quiet so we can make an announcement.

08:57.57
Nathan Pile
Right. And so there's ways that I've learned to be able to control

09:05.27
Nathan Pile
a large group of people to be able to communicate to try to make sense out of our time together or to give direction so that we can the Holy Spirit, though, comes at this in a different way, which is compelling to so.

09:16.88
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, you think about the way that the Holy Spirit gets attention is fire is one way, and wind is another way.

09:30.34
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

09:34.96
Kevin Shock
it can be um it can be damaging wind, or it can be strong wind. It can also be breath, um which...

09:47.55
Kevin Shock
That ah for for people who know a little bit about Hebrew and Greek, um wind, at least in Hebrew, in biblical Hebrew, wind, breath, and spirit are all the same word.

10:03.54
Kevin Shock
ah Which is, I think, why we get things like, you know, on the on the day of Pentecost, there was a sound like a rushing wind. when the spirit descends on the apostles ah in the gospel according to John we get Jesus breathing the spirit into his disciples um

10:28.01
Kevin Shock
yeah and then and then tongue tongues of fire but but also when the spirit appears in tongues of fire and even in wind on the day of Pentecost

10:28.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah

10:40.21
Kevin Shock
people are focused on each other. They're not focused on the spirit necessarily. It's an interesting way to get people's attention. I mean, they they there's a sense, at least from the apostles, that they know, well, from more than the apostles, from anyone who's gathered there and participates, that there is, that the spirit is present.

11:02.20
Kevin Shock
But they're all understanding one another despite having language barriers. And so their focus is on one another and what's happening not not just the the spirit is not taking a platform here to give a speech but to draw attention to the work of God and what God intends and what God is doing at least that's how I read it yeah

11:30.07
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. That's how I read it.

11:38.50
Kevin Shock
any other thoughts

11:39.83
Nathan Pile
No, I don't think, well, more I think we'll talk about a little bit more here.

11:40.63
Kevin Shock
about this one?

11:43.72
Nathan Pile
So, uh,

11:44.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure. All right. I'll read it a second time from John 16, the message.

11:51.37
Kevin Shock
I still have many things to tell you. Oh, this is Jesus speaking, by the way. I don't know if we made that clear the first time.

11:55.05
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

11:56.29
Kevin Shock
Jesus said, I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them now. But when the friend comes, the spirit of the truth, he will take you by the hand and guide you into all the truth there is.

12:08.02
Kevin Shock
He won't draw attention to himself, but will make sense out of what is about to happen and indeed out of all that I have done and said. He will honor me. He will take from me and deliver it to you.

12:20.25
Kevin Shock
Everything the Father has is also mine. That's why I've said, he takes from me and delivers to you.

12:30.23
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

12:35.16
Nathan Pile
Um, this time through, as you read it, the, the thing that struck me is that God, um, I don't usually like this kind of language. So, um, but God knows that there's things that I can't handle right now.

12:54.87
Nathan Pile
And so there's this gift of the spirit, the gift the gift of the advocate, the gift of the friend, um, who is coming

13:04.94
Nathan Pile
to, to guide along the way. And the piece that stuck out to me as you're reading was that first sentences. Um, I still have, have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them right now.

13:17.70
Nathan Pile
Um, and so that idea for myself of there's things that just aren't meant to be handled, Nathan, right now.

13:26.99
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

13:29.04
Nathan Pile
Um, and so that kind of struck out to me, um

13:35.08
Nathan Pile
that kind of stuck out to me as as a part of of what um

13:45.23
Nathan Pile
what I hear God kind of saying to me is recognizing that that I am ah I am a fixer. I When I get really um inwardly focused, I'm trying to control ah situations, dynamics, those kinds of things within our camp community.

14:05.28
Nathan Pile
More so out of trying to be safe and and and and keeping everybody organized and those kinds of things. And so that idea of of not being able to handle something is not a feeling that I am usually comfortable with.

14:20.18
Nathan Pile
um

14:22.83
Nathan Pile
Because I at least want would want to try. you know And so this idea of being reminded that there's things that I can't handle now. And maybe in the future, i might be able to handle them, but maybe not. i don't you know But being able to hear that truth of of recognizing that God has sent um the Spirit to walk alongside me in life um to help me make sense of things.

14:51.17
Nathan Pile
but that there might also be times when it just doesn't make sense. And I think that was one of the hard things of my four years in seminary. um Was it something that at times professors would say, sometimes your questions don't have answers right now, Nathan, um which was not easy, you know, cause again, I wanted answers for all sorts of things about I'm trying to understand God and understand God, um,

15:18.49
Nathan Pile
the relationship God wants with all of us. And so being able to be reminded yet again here in this passage that there is things that that I can't handle, that I can't do um But there is the gift of the spirit that will walk alongside me and and at times maybe help me to be okay with the things that can't be handled or changed.

15:46.78
Nathan Pile
ah But at other times might and provide the inspiration to help me understand it when it's time to understand it.

15:57.19
Nathan Pile
So that piece that very beginning piece, again of of is is the part that feels a connection for me

16:06.54
Nathan Pile
here. So...

16:07.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, I don't know. As you were, as you were talking, I was wondering like what, what kind of things, well, we're, we're going to get to that in three.

16:22.00
Kevin Shock
Nevermind. I was just about to ask you a question that was almost identical to question three.

16:22.54
Nathan Pile
yeah

16:25.82
Kevin Shock
So nevermind. Um,

16:28.00
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

16:28.64
Kevin Shock
I just, I was thinking then there are lots of things that I can't handle. um But I think that there's a distinction here between things that I can't handle that are of God and things that are not of God.

16:46.24
Kevin Shock
Like there are things that I encounter on a regular basis that I think are not of God that I don't know how to handle.

16:46.54
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

16:52.83
Kevin Shock
And that's, you know, that's neither here nor there when we're talking about this um

17:03.46
Kevin Shock
this scenario that Jesus presents here.

17:05.93
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

17:06.45
Kevin Shock
um But but I guess um what I feel called to do ah to segue into that question is there's a there's ah a sentence down here um or a phrase, The Spirit, Jesus is saying, the Spirit will take from me and deliver it to you.

17:29.90
Kevin Shock
ah the The Spirit is this intermediary, the Spirit, but more than that, a holy messenger, an encourager, ah one who is, one who is so completely united with Jesus, it's as though Jesus is speaking to us when the Spirit speaks to us.

17:50.39
Kevin Shock
um And ah I think that, I guess I'm thinking now about the situations I can't handle that are not of God. ah So I'm thinking when when people are divided against one another or or there's something yeah something troubling that's going on.

18:12.49
Kevin Shock
I I wonder, I'm not ah um nowhere near able to do what the spirit does. But I think that in some regard, I am able or feel called to be a person who ah takes what I know from Jesus and delivers it to others.

18:34.57
Kevin Shock
And, or or takes what I know from the, you know, um communicates what the spirit is speaking to others. ah

18:44.92
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

18:46.00
Kevin Shock
Because

18:50.22
Kevin Shock
I guess I'm just thinking about in situations where God is an afterthought or

18:59.08
Kevin Shock
or God is not a thought at all, um I think it probably is worthwhile to speak God into a situation.

19:09.62
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

19:14.13
Kevin Shock
And yeah, I mean, I can't think of any specific examples necessarily, or at least none that I want to discuss publicly. um But I, yeah, I I think that it's good for us to be about communicating

19:34.74
Kevin Shock
what God communicates to us as as disciples, as as followers, as learners of the way. but also as apostles, as ones who are sent, as ones who proclaim a message.

19:50.45
Kevin Shock
I think it's good for me to fill that role. And not just as a pastor, but as as a follower of Jesus.

20:10.71
Kevin Shock
I see you thinking about things.

20:12.19
Nathan Pile
Well, yeah, I'm I'm I'm thinking about your your reflection here and you know how just thinking about it myself of

20:26.50
Nathan Pile
how God engages us or calls us to engage um

20:35.06
Nathan Pile
that proclamation, that sharing of the word.

20:39.15
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

20:39.18
Nathan Pile
um ah And

20:45.58
Nathan Pile
yeah, I'm I'm I'm in agreement. that The thing that is,

20:54.66
Nathan Pile
that just has me thinking is that phrase he takes from me and he delivers it to you. um

21:06.83
Nathan Pile
because they it's used twice here now. It's a paraphrase. It's not the actual translation

21:15.88
Kevin Shock
Although this particular one is pretty close to some of some of the other translations that I was reading. That was one reason I chose it. Yeah.

21:23.36
Nathan Pile
Okay.

21:24.00
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah. But nevertheless, you're right. it's not It's not exactly what was written down. No.

21:29.01
Nathan Pile
Right, right. So, but there again, it's that idea that the the Holy Spirit...

21:37.14
Nathan Pile
um you know, this Trinit- Trinity relationship that we talk about as Lutheran Christians and and um

21:47.97
Nathan Pile
but I can't say of of the 43,000 Christian denominations if everybody follows along with the the Trinitari- ah Trinitarian kind of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or um Creator,

22:04.25
Nathan Pile
redeemer, sustainer, know, whatever the, these, those three relationships that how they're kind of formed together. um But at least in in the tradition that you and I live and exist in um the spirit is saying what is ours is going to be given to us, the disciples, to deliver to you. what And so it's not that, yes, it's being taken from Jesus, but if Father, Son, and Spirit are

22:38.75
Nathan Pile
three in one, so one entity, the Spirit is taking from God and giving to us um all that God has. is that Would that be faithful to say all that?

22:52.58
Nathan Pile
I guess it doesn't say all, it just says he will take from me and deliver it to you. And what he shares, what the Spirit shares, will be honorable. um

23:07.48
Nathan Pile
And so everything the Father has belongs to Jesus the Son, and everything the Son has will be delivered to us through the Spirit.

23:18.55
Nathan Pile
So there's a there there is a little bit of...

23:25.55
Nathan Pile
um

23:29.09
Nathan Pile
What's a better I'm stuck on the word all, but I don't want to use the word all to kind of explain it. but But

23:38.70
Nathan Pile
here the Spirit's relationship is to um inspire, convey, and um and give to us, the disciples, all that is God.

24:00.34
Nathan Pile
including the relationship we have with God, including who God is, um what God calls us to to do and be.

24:00.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right. right

24:09.56
Nathan Pile
um Jesus is making sure that we, the reader, understand that there are that it's that it is, um at least here in the Gospel John, um it's all equal.

24:26.43
Nathan Pile
And the Spirit has a significant job to do in helping us understand God the Creator and God the Son who came in, the human one who came and walked the earth.

24:38.04
Nathan Pile
And so the Spirit is trying to um help us unravel um this bigger mystery that is God.

24:50.81
Nathan Pile
um And all of its complexity.

24:56.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um

25:00.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I mean, I just think I was there was something I read this morning that made me think about um there is

25:12.51
Kevin Shock
there's so there are so many ways that the world has changed

25:20.57
Kevin Shock
in the last almost 2000 years since this was written,

25:31.30
Nathan Pile
Yeah

25:31.49
Kevin Shock
um and like we we can't even I don't think contemporary people can even comprehend how much the world has changed and how many different times the world has changed and all of the different things that have happened that have, um, that have had an impact on the way that humanity relates to, to God, to creation and to one another.

26:05.63
Kevin Shock
Um, but for us in this era, I mean, we're even talking about the last 100 years, 120 years, how much the world has changed.

26:18.28
Kevin Shock
And so there are, if we say indeed that God is still speaking to us, and God is still active among us, which I think you and I, at least in this podcast, take as a given, then there are going to be things that are

26:39.97
Kevin Shock
not addressed by the specific words that Jesus speaks in the Gospels.

26:47.68
Kevin Shock
And there are going to be things that are not addressed by the law that was handed down by Moses from God. um We need the Spirit to keep breathing into the community to guide us in faithful ways of living.

27:07.19
Kevin Shock
And

27:07.23
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

27:09.93
Kevin Shock
um

27:13.16
Kevin Shock
And I think a point of frustration for me is when you hear people saying, well, it doesn't say that in the Bible. ah It doesn't say like and ninety probably 95% of what happens in your daily life, the Bible does not address directly.

27:31.34
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

27:32.51
Kevin Shock
Or it does address it directly we pick and choose what we want to believe.

27:37.44
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:38.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah yeah

27:43.28
Kevin Shock
um Usually when people say it doesn't say that in the Bible, what they mean is it's it's not permissible under the law.

27:57.02
Kevin Shock
But also, these are Christian people saying this to me who do plenty of things that are not permissible under the law and don't even claim to be bound by the law because they claim to follow Jesus.

28:13.38
Kevin Shock
So, but I mean, we, yeah, we need the Spirit. We need the Spirit to show us the way.

28:21.12
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

28:23.62
Kevin Shock
And the Spirit, ah it would be easy if the Spirit did attract attention to herself and would just appear now and again and, you know, give us, like, the latest updates that on what God thinks about things that are happening in the world.

28:41.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

28:42.14
Kevin Shock
But, um, but that's not what happens. What happens is that the spirit breeze into the community, the spirit, um, to use that phrasing I love so well from the common English Bible, uh, the spirit changes hearts and lives.

29:02.30
Kevin Shock
And,

29:05.17
Kevin Shock
Or maybe it's hearts and minds. I can't remember. But anyway, you know what I mean. um

29:09.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

29:11.15
Kevin Shock
Those are the things the Spirit does to guide us forward. And and I don't mean I don't even mean forward as in progress, but just even to allow us to live well with one another.

29:25.39
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

29:26.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

29:35.64
Kevin Shock
Yep. um

29:39.34
Kevin Shock
Anywho.

29:42.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah, let's do it a third time.

29:44.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure.

29:51.26
Nathan Pile
I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them now. But when the friend comes, the spirit of the truth, he will tell you by the hand and guide you into all the truth there is.

30:07.67
Nathan Pile
He won't draw attention to himself, but will make sense out of what is about to happen, and indeed, out of all that I have done and said.

30:20.71
Nathan Pile
He will honor me. He will take from me and deliver it to you. Everything the Father has is also mine. That is why have said, he takes from me and delivers to you.

30:36.92
Nathan Pile
What does Jesus say that is hard for you to handle?

30:43.62
Nathan Pile
kevin

30:44.38
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:50.70
Kevin Shock
I don't know. There's probably lots of stuff. ah

30:55.51
Kevin Shock
I just really wanted to explore this question with you um because it's, I always wonder anytime I read this passage, what exactly is Jesus talking about?

31:08.86
Kevin Shock
He knows.

31:09.03
Nathan Pile
This passage, yeah.

31:10.74
Kevin Shock
yeah He knows what we can't handle. But I don't I don't know if, like,

31:14.61
Nathan Pile
Right.

31:20.36
Kevin Shock
I mean, you know, he could have been talking to the disciples at that time about internal combustion engines.

31:25.36
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

31:26.20
Kevin Shock
I don't know. Like, they would not have and they would not have been able to handle that. um ah ah You know,

31:36.68
Kevin Shock
let alone

31:40.13
Kevin Shock
let alone

31:43.42
Kevin Shock
little computers that allow us to communicate with each other in real time, no matter where we are in the world. Um, they would not have comprehended that either.

31:50.20
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

31:52.58
Nathan Pile
Right.

31:52.82
Kevin Shock
Um, but I don't think, I don't think it's those things that he's talking about necessarily. I do think that he might be talking about things that

32:08.06
Kevin Shock
impact the way that people relate to one another And

32:18.88
Kevin Shock
and and even even things that we still can't even imagine what life would be like. I think I think I think whenever the heavenly realm descends to earth, we, all of us, no matter how righteous we think we are or not, all of us are going to experience life.

32:43.86
Kevin Shock
some kind of culture shock. um Just because I, life life with Jesus in in in holy eternity is going to be so much different than life heroes on earth life is here on earth right now.

33:00.12
Kevin Shock
um And so I think I think that there are probably things that I guess the two... two kind of ah subcategories that I think probably Jesus has things to say about that I don't want to hear or have trouble handling would be one um how I relate to people that I don't agree with

33:32.03
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

33:32.78
Kevin Shock
I think that that's I think that's probably a big part of what Jesus has to say that would trouble me. And also

33:48.29
Kevin Shock
the um the amount of idolatry that exists in my life.

33:54.64
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

33:55.50
Kevin Shock
The things that I put before Jesus. And I just, I think of, you know, ah even think of, um you know, you you and I

34:06.07
Kevin Shock
talk a lot about Well, maybe not on the podcast, but around the podcast, we talk lot about economic systems, uh, institutions of the world, things like that.

34:15.98
Nathan Pile
Mm.

34:21.92
Kevin Shock
And I think that Jesus would have something, something to say about the amount of time that I spend serving those systems and institutions versus how I serve him.

34:36.48
Kevin Shock
And, um,

34:39.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's, yeah, there's there's a lot to unpack even just in that phrase that that you can't handle now. um It could mean that you can't understand it, but it also could mean I have things, um

34:58.79
Kevin Shock
I have items of truth to speak to you, either individually or collectively.

35:07.52
Kevin Shock
that ah you're going to have to sit with for a while because it's going to be hard for you to deal with it to own up to it whatever you want to say and I think that Jesus could say those things to me personally individually but I also think even more so I think that Jesus could say them to the church in this day and age um I think Jesus would

35:34.46
Nathan Pile
Well, and and I would say any community of faith, you know, because camp could be the same way, that there would be something that Jesus has to say to us.

35:42.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

35:45.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

35:45.75
Nathan Pile
You know, we think of most often as the church, right?

35:45.89
Kevin Shock
When I say the church, I mean, yeah, I'm I'm talking about like the body of Christ. um Yeah.

35:50.98
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

35:52.49
Kevin Shock
um Just how far off base we've gotten.

35:57.70
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

36:02.26
Nathan Pile
Well, and I think you've nailed the two areas that that I, this question kind of brought to to my attention that I would struggle with in in the in the same ways.

36:19.37
Nathan Pile
um You know, the idolatry or... again, thinking that my way is the best way or that I have the right solution for the community of faith of that I'm a part of or leading, um that that piece of um of judgment um would be one way absolutely that that gets, that's hard for me to um

36:49.50
Nathan Pile
to hear it critiqued or to hear it um

36:58.89
Nathan Pile
yeah that there there that there might be ah an alternative way that's not my way. Again, my own selfishness is is it pretty great.

37:04.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

37:10.97
Nathan Pile
My sinfulness in that way gets wrapped up in what I think is the right way. And and even though if at the beginning of my search was to try to find um the way God is intending for me to go,

37:29.88
Nathan Pile
in the midst of community, in the midst of culture. ah When I think I found it, then I also attach a bunch of, um of my own insecurities and stuff to it. And so then when Jesus kind of pointing in another direction, and that why are is this really God? Is this really, you know, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure ah this feels like God over here, which was my way.

37:53.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

37:54.04
Nathan Pile
And so um that part of um when you use the word idolatry, it was, it caught my attention. Just in, that's what it, you know, my way has become more sacred than the way.

38:10.82
Nathan Pile
And that's a problem.

38:12.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right, right.

38:15.52
Nathan Pile
And so being able to

38:22.38
Nathan Pile
um wrestle with a challenge or a problem that I think I'm helping the church again the community of faith the the people of God um wrestle with but it becomes about my my thinking only then i've I've gotten and so then it's hard for me to hear that critique from the spirit or and and and usually the spirit again is speaking through another human being. So I blame the human being, right? Like, I don't think you're right.

38:56.59
Nathan Pile
I think I'm right. um

38:59.40
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

38:59.69
Nathan Pile
that kind of a thing.

38:59.86
Kevin Shock
Interesting.

39:01.08
Nathan Pile
Right. Well, but that's, that's just being wrapped up in our, in my own stuff. And, and then it very easily can become um about the whole community because you convince the community that this is the right plan.

39:13.85
Nathan Pile
We should all be moving in this plan together. um And then it takes, takes the church, um the community of faith, the um people of God,

39:26.13
Nathan Pile
off in a direction that that maybe wasn't intended, that has has us off the path of the way, of off of Christ's way um in the world, God's way in the world. And so,

39:39.85
Nathan Pile
um

39:44.34
Nathan Pile
and and how, the thing that amazes me in this is that this gift of the Spirit knows this about us And is secretly planting other seeds in us and around us so that one day they can disturb the soil when it's time that we might see.

40:08.84
Nathan Pile
oh I was completely off base here. um Like that's the patience of the divine one is, is you're just not ready to see this yet.

40:19.03
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

40:23.74
Nathan Pile
And every now and then, like people like my grandmother, ah get, I got eyewitnesses. I got to eyewitness, to witness their witness to the world, which was that very subtle gift of the spirit that said, like they didn't say it out loud, but you could see it on their face. so You're not ready to hear this yet, but I'm going to plant some seeds here.

40:46.94
Nathan Pile
Um,

40:50.07
Nathan Pile
and and see what that was, you know, and then allow it to happen in their wisdom. They could, they could self differentiate between what Nathan was saying and it was Nathan's and what was really God's.

41:03.13
Kevin Shock
Mm. Mm-hmm.

41:03.28
Nathan Pile
And I wasn't quite on target yet, but to say, well, maybe that's, maybe what you're saying is right, but maybe this other thing could also be right.

41:13.22
Nathan Pile
Um, And so, again, the the gift of the Holy Spirit didn't draw attention to itself, just kind of subtly planted a couple of of new questions of doubt, possibly, or um and allowing me to self-analyze.

41:30.67
Nathan Pile
And then then when I was ready to be able to handle whatever that hard thing was, then and it was there.

41:40.21
Nathan Pile
So...

41:45.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's it. Well, you raise an interesting question there for me, and that is how how do we distinguish what's ah what I'm saying that is my opinion and what I'm saying that comes from the spirit?

41:59.12
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

42:03.67
Nathan Pile
I think it has to be more than our voice.

42:07.40
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah, I agree.

42:09.28
Nathan Pile
and and And I think a part of being a leader in any culture or group is to let go of the temptation of convincing everybody else that you're right and be open enough to hear others feedback that could allow the thing that you're saying to be changed

42:30.99
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

42:35.89
Nathan Pile
um or confirmed if other people are saying this feels right as opposed to me out there kind of um marketing or politicking for whatever I think the right idea is.

42:51.40
Nathan Pile
How do we give it enough time for others to wrestle with it? How do we ask questions instead of just provide answers?

43:03.08
Nathan Pile
And that's not wrapped into this text so much, but but it absolutely, I think, gets to the heart of your question of how do I know what I'm saying is not just Nathan trying to control the situation.

43:15.31
Nathan Pile
Like we have to be listening for that quiet friend. ah quiet friend

43:24.18
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

43:24.92
Nathan Pile
that that quiet advocate who who is who is in the world, who lives alongside us, but who who might be pointing in another direction um

43:40.83
Nathan Pile
and be able to hear that and shift our own our own bearings.

43:49.53
Nathan Pile
It has to be more more than one voice, I guess. If it's only my voice saying this is the thing, that's not enough.

44:00.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. yeah

44:06.82
Nathan Pile
One of the things that we've done with the grant here in the in the Synod was that we've just um sent out and and and completed some survey analysis.

44:20.38
Nathan Pile
And part of the reason I have pushed for early analysis and and survey stuff is, like, I think I know what's going on in the church. I don't think I know. I I have some hunches and suspicions that I think of what what's happening in um going on and in the church universal, happening to the the faithful people of God.

44:43.52
Nathan Pile
um So I have some hunches, but I want some data to kind of help me understand if that's what other people are seeing and hearing too. um Because I, I'm not certain that I know definitively.

44:57.41
Nathan Pile
um I see certain behaviors and I hear hear certain questions, but I'm not definitive. i don't definitively think here, you know, this is...

45:09.17
Nathan Pile
um I have some hypotheses, but I'm not positive that those are, they're good enough to be theories from a scientific perspective, right? We have a hypothesis and we test that hypothesis a bunch.

45:21.87
Nathan Pile
And if we test it enough and get enough um results, then it can become, can move to kind of a theory. We think this is the, I have a lot of hypotheses. but I don't feel like any of it's backed up by any kind of data um other than my own self observation or my own conversations.

45:36.55
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

45:40.25
Nathan Pile
But again, those observations and conversations haven't been done in a scientific way because they just haven't been. And so so getting some information Helps me to kind of feel like, oh, maybe we are on the right path with this idea.

45:59.81
Nathan Pile
But maybe I had three of them and the other two were trash. And so he needed to throw them out. And so how do we do that as the people of God? If the spirit is is actively moving and engaging in the world, um helping us make sense of the world.

46:17.63
Nathan Pile
um You and I talk about in this podcast that it's the it's the compiled interpretation of all of God's people sharing

46:28.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:28.42
Nathan Pile
our understanding of scripture that gives us a fuller sense of what God is actually doing in the world.

46:32.02
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

46:32.99
Nathan Pile
And so how do we hear more and more of those voices?

46:33.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:36.37
Nathan Pile
How do we have more and more? And so that idea, I'm not saying that we survey people. my The survey example was just simply kind of saying, how do we keep getting, how do keep inviting new voices into that conversation um and and and what that looks like?

46:45.22
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

46:48.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

46:53.71
Kevin Shock
Well, and that and that in and of itself can be hard for us to handle.

46:53.77
Nathan Pile
So

47:01.20
Kevin Shock
If we hear an interpretation from another culture, ah background experience that is

47:01.46
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

47:04.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

47:11.64
Kevin Shock
much different than ours in how we move in the world. Um, I, uh, that, as you and I say at the beginning of this podcast, that interpretation is no less valid than any interpretation that we might have.

47:29.71
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

47:29.88
Kevin Shock
And, um, and, and probably even can serve to teach us more about what scripture is actually saying. Um, um, we can't You and I can't understand how Scripture was understood by 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century ah yeah people from the Middle East oh of all different kinds of classes.

47:55.77
Nathan Pile
Right.

48:00.33
Kevin Shock
um we we I mean, we can't understand it. Life was different back then. and And the experience of those people would have been so vastly different from what our experience in the world is.

48:12.76
Kevin Shock
um I think in recent years, in the last 100, 150 years, the church has ah striven in some in some branches of the church, we've striven more for that understanding as we've come to as we've come to know that world a little bit differently.

48:31.46
Kevin Shock
and, and fold some of that into our interpretation, but it still doesn't, it doesn't give us license to say, well, the way that I read it is right.

48:41.17
Nathan Pile
yeah

48:42.02
Kevin Shock
And that's what, that's what frustrates me when people idolize scripture or their own interpretation of scripture.

48:53.19
Kevin Shock
um and say, if you know if if someone else thinks differently than what I do on this, then they're wrong. That's not what scripture says.

49:05.63
Kevin Shock
I you know I think I think when we idolize scripture, what I mean by that is we put it in the primary spot of how we learn about God.

49:17.50
Kevin Shock
and And scripture is undoubtedly... essential in how we learn about God. um But the the the history and tradition of the church, because those are people who for the last 2000 years have listened to the spirit, that also important.

49:41.15
Kevin Shock
something that teaches us about the church and about God and, and the Holy Spirit itself, um, speaking to us. and And, I mean, collectively, not, not individually necessarily, but collectively that to, to say that the Bible is the only way is to worship the Bible and not necessarily worship God.

50:08.98
Kevin Shock
Because so much has happened in the life of the world and in God's, and and in the story of God and humanity and creation and everything else um in the last 2000 years since, well, you know, the last, whatever, 1900 years since the last word of scripture was written, written down. um That

50:31.95
Kevin Shock
how how can we say that God has just remained stagnant in how God interacts with us? over these last 1900 years. I don't, I don't understand how someone could say that.

50:42.68
Nathan Pile
yeah

50:47.05
Nathan Pile
Other than it has become their idol. It has become their, their, uh, I can control it better if it fits into my little box.

50:53.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

51:00.92
Kevin Shock
Right.

51:01.36
Nathan Pile
Um, which is, uh, yeah.

51:01.53
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. and And to be able to look at a word on a page and say, this is where it's addressed or this is what we're talking about.

51:13.49
Kevin Shock
yeah First of all, we not necessarily because Again, we we hold, you and I, in our tradition, we hold that scripture is not infallible.

51:25.43
Kevin Shock
Scripture has been translated, scripture you know interpretation has been thrown into scripture, all kinds of stuff have been, we we believe it to be spirit-breathed, but also recognize that it is not it has not been handed down from generation to generation um any, any in a pure and incorrupted manner.

51:32.80
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

51:47.54
Nathan Pile
Correct.

51:49.80
Kevin Shock
so So for someone in the year 2025 to point to a Bible verse and say, this is what this is what God was talking about, what's going on in the world right now, I think is a very naive viewpoint.

52:05.87
Kevin Shock
It's not that the Bible can't teach us about the world right now. It certainly can.

52:09.58
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Yeah.

52:11.09
Kevin Shock
but But the comfort of that black and white text on that page is is idolatrous.

52:20.23
Nathan Pile
Right.

52:22.12
Kevin Shock
when you can that's right.

52:22.18
Nathan Pile
the The fullness of God is lived out in the spirit with that black and white page.

52:28.61
Kevin Shock
That's right. Right. And, and with the whole community of God with the whole body of Christ.

52:30.65
Nathan Pile
And a whole community. No.

52:32.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

52:36.86
Nathan Pile
And how that pulls us beyond our beyond ourselves.

52:36.87
Kevin Shock
Well,

52:40.81
Kevin Shock
yeah. Yeah. There's, there's probably lots more we could say that we cannot handle right now, Nathan. So, um,

52:47.43
Nathan Pile
That's probably true. Yeah.

52:50.98
Kevin Shock
This is I think, I think that this, when, when I read this section of John, I think that this just begs ongoing conversation about how God is interacting with us and how God is present among us.

53:05.95
Nathan Pile
yeah

53:08.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

53:09.81
Nathan Pile
Helping us to make sense of it. I think that it is, and I don't think we as the church, like it's meant, it feels as if it's intended to be a dialogue between us and God and us meaning all of the people of God.

53:11.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

53:23.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

53:26.76
Nathan Pile
um And I'm not positive we as the the way we are structured as the people of God right now allows it to be that kind of a dialogue.

53:40.86
Nathan Pile
we We still have a and vision of the church of there's experts and those experts tell us what we're supposed to know. um

53:52.29
Kevin Shock
yeah

53:52.94
Nathan Pile
And this feels a little different um and means that we have to give, um we as leaders in the church, for you and I particularly as pastors,

54:09.76
Nathan Pile
How do we, yes, we may have spent four years in seminary, but how do we set that aside to be able to hear someone else's interpretation of scripture?

54:23.65
Nathan Pile
um And instead of stopping them saying, well, I'm not positive you got that right.

54:30.08
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right.

54:31.23
Nathan Pile
You know, being able to, and so, Yeah, so that I think that's like this idea of dialogue with the Holy Spirit in the my in the midst of all of this interpretation that is happening um between the black and white page and with the words, but being able to kind of wrestle with to wrestle with what what God is trying to help us make sense of together.

55:06.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and I think that's it. I think we do have to wrestle with it.

55:09.31
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:10.37
Kevin Shock
I think the the image of ah Jacob wrestling the angel before he is named Israel and before he meets his brother that he stole his birthright from ah is is ah is a good metaphor for us in any station of life.

55:30.12
Kevin Shock
we're we're We're continuing to hold on. that our our Our part of our call is to hold on to God, to the spirit, as Jacob held on to the messenger and demanded a blessing before he be let go.

55:43.57
Kevin Shock
and And what was Jacob's? Jacob received a blessing. He also received a lifelong injury that marked him.

55:53.73
Kevin Shock
his His hip was thrown out of socket and he limped for the rest of his life.

55:57.02
Nathan Pile
rest of his life, sure.

55:58.20
Kevin Shock
Because he, yeah, and I think I think that's a great metaphor for how we interact with God, that we we don't come out we we come out, we come out of that wrestling match blessed and changed.

56:13.14
Kevin Shock
um it's it's For me, it's reminiscent of Jesus still bearing the scars of his wounds whenever he appears in resurrected form. Yeah.

56:21.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

56:23.08
Kevin Shock
Yep. ye this ah This is me. we can't We can't hide what I had to deal with and what I had to do.

56:30.38
Nathan Pile
right

56:31.21
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

56:34.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah. All right. Well, yes.

56:37.62
Nathan Pile
There are additional texts for us, Kevin, as we

56:40.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Some additional text for this. ah This Sunday is um what we call in our tradition, the Holy Trinity or Trinity Sunday, ah where we do...

56:52.02
Kevin Shock
um talk about the the unity of God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. um And our readings for this year on that day lift that up in some ways, ah maybe a little hidden too, but we encounter ah holy wisdom in our first text, Proverbs 8, verses one through four and

57:07.58
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

57:17.12
Kevin Shock
ah Wisdom rejoices in the creation. And there's ah some interplay there between this um holy wisdom, who is a feminine ah character in Hebrew scripture, and how she was there present with God when all things were created.

57:36.16
Kevin Shock
um Psalm 8, your glory is chanted above the heavens. And then a short passage from Romans 5, verses 1 through 5, God's love is poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

57:51.98
Kevin Shock
Well, Nathan, I think you and I could probably continue to reflect on these things for hours to come, but we will leave that work up to our listeners as well. And ah you and I can do it out on the front porch some night um whenever I'm down to visit.

58:01.97
Nathan Pile
All

58:07.84
Nathan Pile
right. Sounds great.

58:09.37
Kevin Shock
So, yeah. We would love to hear your reflections on the things that you can't handle, friends. ah So please send them to us via email or social media or talk to us in person too. Nathan and I both love that.

58:23.91
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

58:23.99
Kevin Shock
um And we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

58:28.35
Nathan Pile
And peace.