Episode 47: 1 Timothy 1:12-17

Translation: New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How have you been treated with mercy?

Additional texts:

Exodus 32:7-14

Psalm 51:1-10

Luke 15:1-10

Jeremiah 4:11-12, 22-28

Psalm 14

Transcript

00:01.82
Nathan Pile
Hello, hello, hello, hello, Kevin.

00:06.91
Kevin Shock
Hi Nathan.

00:07.89
Nathan Pile
Welcome back to Tend: a Bible Podcast. It is um zipping by us, the summer has, Kevin, and but we're back again for a time to share and reflect on Scripture and um ah yes, of course, nurture our friendship, but also nurture our spirits in the faith.

00:31.93
Nathan Pile
So good to be back together.

00:31.90
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:34.00
Nathan Pile
Uh, today, Kevin and I are going to read, um, from first Timothy chapter one, uh, verses 12 to 17. Uh, we'll be using the new English translation as our reading, um, the net Bible.

00:51.33
Nathan Pile
So, uh, you can follow along with whatever Bible you have handy, or you can look it up on Bible gateway. um either online or if you have the app and follow along in the NET.

01:05.05
Nathan Pile
um As we dig into scripture today, the three questions, two are familiar. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text?

01:17.16
Nathan Pile
And our third question today, how have you been treated with mercy?

01:23.12
Kevin Shock
Mmhm

01:25.93
Kevin Shock
Here some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

01:36.66
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

01:49.03
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

02:01.14
Kevin Shock
And as Nathan said, this is from 1 Timothy, the first chapter, verses 12 through 17.

02:09.38
Kevin Shock
I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into misery. Even though I was, oh yeah, ministry.

02:19.41
Nathan Pile
Ministry, ministry, Kevin.

02:21.60
Kevin Shock
Why did I say mis-? Oh gosh. Yeah. Let me start over with verse 12.

02:27.74
Nathan Pile
Everyone, we're going to we're going to pause the podcast now and dig in into Kevin's psyche of why this is misery instead of ministry.

02:28.08
Kevin Shock
I'm grateful. Yeah. No, is it?

02:38.10
Kevin Shock
I, uh, yeah, it didn't, as it came out of my mouth, I thought, I thought briefly that doesn't really make sense. Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense. It's not what it says. Okay. Verse 12 through 17. I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man.

03:02.56
Kevin Shock
But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief, and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus. This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.

03:15.98
Kevin Shock
Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them. But here is why I was treated with mercy, so that in me as the worst, Jesus Christ could demonstrate his utmost patience as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.

03:34.58
Kevin Shock
Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. If you are meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions with one another.

03:52.42
Kevin Shock
Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

03:57.91
Nathan Pile
"utmost patience" as you were reading it there. the the the idea that um the Christ is super patient um here with the author of Timothy. It could be Paul. It could be Timothy. I don't know.

04:18.34
Nathan Pile
But whoever ah is penning this um this text, the the the idea that Jesus the Christ needs to be super patient, um, strikes me not just for, um, the, this author, but also for this podcaster, um, in that, like that I too need, um, Christ's utmost patience. I think at times I, that,

04:50.70
Nathan Pile
I don't, you know, I guess I don't know if I ever consider myself the worst, but I definitely don't feel, feel like I'm, uh, um, a champion ah of, of faithfulness in my life.

05:04.42
Nathan Pile
And so that idea that I too need Christ's utmost patience, um, um, ah was intriguing to me here that, that both the author is requesting it, but also found myself kind of feeling like, um, that many of the, the pieces of, um, of what gets laid out here of, of unbelief of, um, of, um,

05:33.60
Nathan Pile
you know, blaspheming and, and, uh, persecuting the church, um, or God's people. Um, like there's parts of all of that that exists also in who I am.

05:47.36
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, as a, as a, also seeing myself as a sinner and sinful, um, and that my way is more important than others. And so recognizing that the,

05:58.55
Nathan Pile
the the way this is translated here, that word utmost patience just really stuck out to me as, as patience more than, than sometimes is humanly possible.

06:11.54
Nathan Pile
um And that, and that God is willing to, that Christ is willing to be that patient with with us over and over again and not just in 2025, but here in, um, you know, whatever year this was that this, um, this text gets, gets written down.

06:35.07
Nathan Pile
um

06:37.76
Nathan Pile
that the idea of that patience is also needed for, for others and, and, and that I'm a part of that. um

06:47.16
Nathan Pile
And and the the piece of utmost patience that also kind of sticks out is like, like i I don't feel like I have it sometimes. the utmost patience for others, you know, this, this thing that God does for us.

06:59.15
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah

07:01.94
Nathan Pile
And of course, in, in, in all things, we feel that, you know, what God gives to us, that, that, uh, love, forgiveness, mercy, um, that we are to give to others.

07:13.71
Nathan Pile
and And here it is this utmost patience, but, but boy, how do I have utmost patience for others? Um, I have less of it at the end of a summer than I did at, you know, I've, I've less patience at the end of a summer than I did at the beginning of the summer.

07:29.99
Nathan Pile
Um, because I'm worn out and I, and I wonder about us as God's people, are we, are we able to be patient today? are we able to offer one another patience because we're so tired, we're so busy, we're so on the go.

07:44.05
Nathan Pile
So this idea of Christ demonstrating utmost patience for us, um, is ah It's a powerful image. So that's what sticks out to me.

07:57.47
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah, and and this is, patience is an attribute of the Christ in this reading, which i I don't necessarily, I don't think that I've necessarily thought of Christ as being patient.

08:07.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

08:14.42
Kevin Shock
I mean, you know, ah not to like mince persons of the Trinity or anything, but um I mean, I have seen patience as a godly attribute.

08:18.11
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

08:25.05
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

08:28.92
Kevin Shock
I just haven't thought of Jesus as being patient. but I, but yeah, then again, we're also in the summer or the the year of Luke where ah Jesus ah both exhibits patience with his disciples and gets pretty irritated with them at times.

08:43.80
Kevin Shock
So...

08:44.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Right. yeah

08:46.99
Kevin Shock
so But nevertheless, even even the irritated Christ still goes to the cross. So ah that's not something that I should shouldn't focus on, Christ's irritation.

08:53.53
Nathan Pile
right

08:58.71
Kevin Shock
um it says It's his act of mercy that saves us. um but But I have, yeah, I mean, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the patience of God and how generation after generation, is as the Israelites got it wrong, as People didn't listen to the prophets as, you know, Jesus came along and the other religious teachers and leaders turned on him.

09:25.73
Kevin Shock
um and you know, and then for the past 2000 years, while while we have ah

09:35.69
Kevin Shock
consistently gotten it wrong when it comes to living into righteousness and embracing the salvation we've been given. ah yeah Patience is certainly ah a major attribute of God. Yeah.

09:48.97
Kevin Shock
That actually, as I say that, that reminds me, um we did normally, I save this stuff for the end of the podcast episodes, but we did hear from, uh, from Sherry, our faithful listener, this past week, uh, in relation to our, our episode on Luke 12, 49 through 56, where,

10:10.96
Kevin Shock
um ah Jesus was talking about the division he brings.

10:14.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

10:15.03
Kevin Shock
um But the reason it came to mind was she says, um, I'm trying to find the exact the exact place where she talks about it.

10:27.20
Kevin Shock
ah so I'll just read this paragraph. we're experiencing We are experiencing much division in our earthly world presently. I realize God is not causing the division as it currently exists.

10:39.52
Kevin Shock
Man's, human beings, self-centered interpretation of the present time prevents us from seeing what Jesus wants for us. God gives us, this is an interesting line. I thought, Sherry, I'm glad you said this.

10:51.41
Kevin Shock
but We could debate this sometime. God gives us more credit than we deserve, which I think is actually true. um Sometimes I wish that he could come and bring peace on earth now and then give us another chance to do better job at interpreting than we have done up to this point.

11:09.25
Kevin Shock
would we do a better job after starting fresh? And then there are five question marks after that. So I think, I think Sherry knows how we would answer that question. But, um but that came to mind because that's right. We've, we've gotten chance after chance, after chance, after chance, because that's the patience of God.

11:29.63
Kevin Shock
That's the, that's holy patience. Patience is one of the, one of the fruits of the spirit in Paul's writings.

11:35.49
Nathan Pile
Yeah

11:36.54
Kevin Shock
So, yeah. Yeah.

11:39.65
Kevin Shock
Anywho, yeah, patience is a big one.

11:40.34
Nathan Pile
how about you my friend what word phrase image

11:41.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah, for me it um for me, it was an arrogant man. um I don't know, maybe I should say it was misery, which is a word that I inserted into the text. But um yeah, that um ah ah an arrogant man. I, like you, I don't know that I go as far as this author's as this author does, is saying, is thinking, I'm the worst of the sinners.

12:10.70
Kevin Shock
I certainly think I'm just as bad a sinner as anyone else, but I don't know that I'm the worst. Come on, geez. um

12:16.96
Nathan Pile
Right, right.

12:18.29
Kevin Shock
But one thing, and I don't even I don't even know that I would describe myself as being arrogant, but it did bring home to me that um,

12:30.65
Kevin Shock
ah that it sin Sin infiltrates our lives in such a way that we get to the point where the things that we do that are sinful but aren't really all that bad, we overlook.

12:47.60
Kevin Shock
And I think that I think it would be easier for arrogance to fall into that category. Because the two words that are mentioned just before arrogance...

12:59.93
Kevin Shock
ah though even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, those are also big things. Those are, you know, those, those are things that, ah like, you have to really be actively trying to oppose God to be those things, I feel like.

13:17.04
Kevin Shock
But an arrogant man, I don't think you have to be actively trying to do that. I think that that's something that can, that's a that's a sin that can creep in pretty easily if we're not checking ourselves when it comes to our life of faith, our life with God and with others.

13:37.53
Kevin Shock
So, yeah, so that's, that's the the, the word, the phrase that spoke to me in this reading, an arrogant man, which I think also then drives home for me how much God's patience, Christ's patience is needed.

13:55.18
Nathan Pile
Right. Well, I think that's that, that part of it, that even using the use of that word, um,

13:56.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

14:06.47
Nathan Pile
of arrogance, like, again, as as you had, you know, you echoed for me, the the idea that we never never want to put ourselves as the worst of the sinners.

14:19.37
Nathan Pile
And yet, I have no doubt that there's a, that I have a level of arrogance to me, um that people would, others would say, you know, and I would say, I try not to be arrogant.

14:25.66
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

14:30.17
Nathan Pile
But yeah, sure. Probably I'll try not to be arrogant. But at times, it also plays out. um

14:36.21
Kevin Shock
right

14:36.99
Nathan Pile
That's a part of that sinful nature of ourselves.

14:36.87
Kevin Shock
right

14:38.91
Nathan Pile
And so having it spelled out here as, you know, as, as the author is, is naming um some of their sins, that idea of arrogance um also needs to be named and, and, um,

14:59.79
Nathan Pile
and, and, and even our arrogance shows up a little bit in saying, well, surely I'm not the worst.

15:07.58
Nathan Pile
You know, we don't like the idea of, we we don't want to be the worst sinner.

15:10.01
Kevin Shock
Right.

15:12.44
Nathan Pile
Um, it's okay to be lumped in with all the rest of the sinners, but I, I don't want to, I don't want to be the worst one.

15:17.74
Kevin Shock
But not the worst one. Yeah. Yeah.

15:21.11
Nathan Pile
Um, ah so there's even a piece of our own, uh, arrogance there.

15:21.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:23.37
Kevin Shock
Right.

15:25.72
Nathan Pile
So, yeah.

15:26.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, yeah. Or arrogance on the other side of it that, uh, don't know. Calling yourself the worst center kind of sounds like a humble brag too. Like, like,

15:38.71
Nathan Pile
Well, you're

15:39.92
Kevin Shock
got God's, God's not, not that, not that you want to be sinful, but it's, but it's almost like, look how humble I am by, by thinking I'm the worst of all sinners.

15:46.19
Nathan Pile
right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

15:50.10
Kevin Shock
and And I don't think, I don't think that's the author's intention here, but we're also reading this with 2000 years of baggage attached to it.

15:54.21
Nathan Pile
Right.

15:57.81
Kevin Shock
So, uh, yeah.

16:02.06
Nathan Pile
Well, and that's why I think in some ways we could say it feels a little bit like Paul, because some you and I have talked about Paul's very bold sometimes in his statements and declarations.

16:01.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

16:10.56
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

16:11.53
Nathan Pile
And so, um you know,

16:12.05
Kevin Shock
Yep.

16:16.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

16:16.32
Nathan Pile
ah whether that's, this is him or not, I don't, don't fully comprehend

16:23.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah. The, um, yeah. and And what, what you said something about, you you said something along the lines of, uh, you're sure that you have some, some kind of arrogance in you.

16:34.45
Kevin Shock
Um, I, and I don't know if I've talked about it in this podcast before.

16:34.75
Nathan Pile
Sure. sure

16:40.04
Kevin Shock
um But I can remember when a friend of mine told me that some- someone else, someone who had been a classmate, thought I was pretty full of myself.

16:57.96
Kevin Shock
I can't even remember it how it came up in conversation. But

17:05.17
Kevin Shock
and in any case, um I took that to heart. ah because I realized that I think that things with with some, yeah well, I, I don't think I realized that at the time.

17:18.70
Kevin Shock
I think I was pretty ticked off about it at the time. But over the course of many, many years of adult reflection and self-examination,

17:27.66
Nathan Pile
We're talking like 20 people.

17:27.58
Kevin Shock
um

17:29.02
Nathan Pile
We're talking like 20 years of reflection here.

17:30.33
Kevin Shock
oh, maybe even more than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That some of the, some of the ways I presented myself or acted when I was younger, I think were defense mechanisms and, and I can see how someone could see me being like kind of, you know, uh,

17:46.69
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

17:54.35
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

17:57.19
Kevin Shock
but being the center of attention or being like, not the center of attention, but like being the, being the outwardly jokey, like poking fun at other people kind of guy.

18:07.83
Nathan Pile
Sure.

18:07.91
Kevin Shock
um how someone could see that as being, as me being arrogant, me being full of myself.

18:13.11
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

18:13.57
Kevin Shock
And, uh, and so I have, I have taken that to heart over the years to, ah to try to resist that urge. And, um,

18:24.99
Kevin Shock
And I think I've gotten better at it, but that doesn't mean that I'm no longer arrogant at all. ah It certainly doesn't. In any case, it certainly doesn't mean I'm without sin just because I have a handle on one of them.

18:36.61
Nathan Pile
Right.

18:38.46
Kevin Shock
But in any case, why don't we look at it a second time?

18:43.33
Nathan Pile
We shall.

18:48.56
Nathan Pile
I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man.

19:05.37
Nathan Pile
But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief. And our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus. This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.

19:21.39
Nathan Pile
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them. But here is why I was treated with mercy, so that in me, as the worst, Christ Jesus could demonstrate his utmost patience and as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.

19:43.90
Nathan Pile
Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

19:55.97
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

20:00.93
Kevin Shock
Something you said hit me right off the bat. And that is that those first three words, I'm grateful. um I think ah think this text is telling calling me toward ah gratitude is ah is the easy answer.

20:19.33
Kevin Shock
I think the more fleshed out answer is everything we've been talking to talking about up to this point, and even a lot in this reading itself,

20:30.99
Kevin Shock
is self-focused, self-referential. I'm the worst one. ah um And even even the the good stuff about God, some of it at least is in the passive voice. ah here's Here's why I was treated with mercy instead of just naming God right there.

20:57.67
Kevin Shock
you know here's Here's why God treated me with mercy. Um, but that I am grateful. I, I think a spirit of gratitude is by nature

21:13.07
Kevin Shock
outwardly focused and not inwardly focused. Uh, I think gratitude, gratitude means that we are we are giving thanks for something beyond ourselves or outside of ourselves.

21:30.74
Kevin Shock
And I think that that's what this text is calling me to towards.

21:37.97
Kevin Shock
to be To be focused on the the goodness of God and not my own shortcomings or

21:51.63
Kevin Shock
or even accomplishments.

21:56.85
Kevin Shock
but to but to be focused on what like God has done and is doing.

22:06.19
Nathan Pile
Well, and that's... um

22:09.67
Nathan Pile
I guess your response, which you know, it's a good response. And so I'm a little jealous that you pulled that one. I'm I'm I'm still stuck on patience. um But the, and and I'll get, i know, I know, we'll get to that though.

22:20.45
Kevin Shock
ah That's okay. It's a valid...

22:23.94
Nathan Pile
But ah what I wanted to reflect on from your piece here is, is though paul or Paul or whoever it is, again, folks, I'll be honest.

22:34.75
Nathan Pile
Sometimes we attribute Timothy to to Paul and sometimes we don't. there's There's language here that feels like at the beginning of Paul's letters, but at the same time, I think there's, I'm not I'm not positive from what I remember and I haven't had any chance to kind of look it up and clarify my understanding. there's I think 2 Timothy maybe is completely not Paul.

22:58.15
Nathan Pile
um Um, we're going off of my memory and my memory is not exactly the clearest right now. So that's why I keep saying, is this Paul? Is it not Paul? I don't know. Um, um, even though it's got Timothy's name on it.

23:12.82
Nathan Pile
Um,

23:13.42
Kevin Shock
Right, right.

23:16.63
Nathan Pile
so, um, the And so that's where some of this confusion for me is. the The thing that, like, your piece of this um about being grateful um

23:32.71
Nathan Pile
to me is is richer and and a stronger position than what I think the author is here. Yeah. that says I'm grateful, but then, and as you've articulated, it all becomes about the author's, um, space and place.

23:51.67
Nathan Pile
Um, and so I like that. I like this idea, um that you've shared here of, of seeking to live in gratefulness, um, because of what Christ has done, you know, is doing in the world.

24:10.06
Nathan Pile
um here And so, um, so like, I just wanted to say that part of it, like you put a night, you put a nicer spin on this than what I think the passage itself does, um, in seeking that gratefulness.

24:26.59
Nathan Pile
Uh, the person says, I'm grateful. The author says I'm grateful, but then kind of spirals back in to their own, um,

24:28.42
Kevin Shock
Sure.

24:36.70
Nathan Pile
inwardly focused things. We get to, we get to Jesus's action in the patients and in the saving of, of, of, um, of them.

24:43.06
Kevin Shock
sure

24:45.19
Nathan Pile
Um, but your, your spin on this gratefulness would have felt like a better paragraph to me. Not that you're the, uh, an author of a biblical passage, but I do think that that, um,

24:58.36
Nathan Pile
Like, they glance on this idea of grateful and then get um drawn back into them themselves and their need for God's grace and forgiveness and mercy.

25:06.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well.

25:08.70
Nathan Pile
And, you and you know, I think that's, you know, it is what it is. But your your reflection just...

25:15.89
Kevin Shock
well

25:18.27
Nathan Pile
um I thought it does a nice job of, again, pulling us into what you feel called to, but helps us to kind of see this of um

25:35.67
Nathan Pile
the author here doesn't seem to be as as grateful and it's hard to right rant um rank that I guess with these words because it says I am grateful but um but still gets lost in their own in their own sinfulness

25:55.18
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, and I don't want to, I don't wanna necessarily put that on the author because we're only we're pulling out six verses here out of a whole, an entire letter.

26:04.13
Nathan Pile
sure out of the whole letter sure

26:04.54
Kevin Shock
so um And I also want to say that I think that...

26:12.33
Kevin Shock
So in our Lutheran tradition, the the um the the theological lineage that we claim as Lutherans is, of course...

26:25.54
Kevin Shock
our our closest theological ancestor is Martin Luther, who had lots of ideas about, that have influenced the way that we, we who have been raised in and or studied Lutheranism have been affected by and and shaped by his concepts about his interpretation of Christian theology.

26:50.22
Nathan Pile
Sure.

26:50.43
Kevin Shock
um And Luther himself was an Augustinian monk. So he was shaped by St Augustine's interpretation of Christian theology.

27:02.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

27:04.38
Kevin Shock
And Augustine is pretty closely connected, not but not physically necessarily, but um theologically speaking with the Apostle Paul.

27:16.26
Nathan Pile
yeah

27:16.75
Kevin Shock
And so so Lutherans... ah there's There's a lot in the Pauline epistles, although, you know like Nathan indicated, it's debated whether this is a genuine Pauline epistle or not. But ah in in and these letters that have been attributed to Paul, there's a lot that resonates with us.

27:34.22
Kevin Shock
And so that's all an explanation to say that these six verses are a great example of law and gospel.

27:34.48
Nathan Pile
Okay.

27:42.91
Kevin Shock
and And that concept in lutheran and Lutheran understanding, Nathan, if I could take I'm going to try to do this in under two minutes, explain what law and gospel is.

27:52.66
Nathan Pile
okay

27:56.16
Kevin Shock
Law and gospel is the interplay, not just between ah the the first and second testaments of scripture, but but the um ah the the purpose of scripture and of of Christ as the incarnate word.

28:11.90
Kevin Shock
the law of The law portion of it is that we, in the law, as it's written to us, that the commandments and other things, but also in the face, in in the presence of Jesus, we recognize that we fall short of what God expects from us and and who God has made us to be.

28:32.81
Kevin Shock
And the reason we fall short is sin.

28:37.07
Kevin Shock
Again, this is a very this is a very concise explanation. ah ah Brokenness, whatever you want to call it. um But But it law law law is ah us recognizing our need, our need for what God is showing us.

28:54.24
Nathan Pile
Our need, yep.

28:56.60
Kevin Shock
And then the gospel is what God does in response to that need. God shows us mercy. God loves us. God saves us through the cross. um so But but both of these both of these pieces, both of these parts of of the word enacted in us are necessary.

29:17.31
Kevin Shock
it's it's law and gospel. It's not law or gospel. It's law and gospel is the interplay. Um, it's not like you can't look at certain pieces of scripture and say, oh well, this part is law and this part is gospel.

29:32.96
Kevin Shock
Because I think if you look at any piece of scripture, you can see there's law and gospel both in what's being said here. And, and these six verses are a great exposition of, uh,

29:46.97
Kevin Shock
I've been shown, I'm grateful because I've been shown mercy and boy, do I need it.

29:51.71
Nathan Pile
Right.

29:52.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

29:52.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

29:53.23
Kevin Shock
So.

29:53.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah. It meets the um the equation for law, gospel, and Paul.

30:02.32
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

30:03.60
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

30:04.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So, uh, Nathan, did you, yeah.

30:08.17
Nathan Pile
So from, yeah. Yeah. So mine was still stuck on that patience piece, um, uh, that we talked about in that first round.

30:10.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:15.84
Nathan Pile
And so this, this idea that, um, that we too are called to be patient. Um, and maybe we, not that we have to have utmost patience, but we should be striving for utmost patience.

30:31.08
Nathan Pile
Um, as we seek to be the followers of Christ, to be, to be the followers of God. And so, um you know, and what that looks like, how that plays in our world.

30:48.48
Nathan Pile
Uh, as you said, with the law and gospel piece, you know God's response to our need, our, our selfishness and sinfulness, our brokenness, God's response to that need is love, forgiveness, mercy.

31:05.68
Nathan Pile
And so, and and that gets lived out um here um with this, ah with this author's experience through the patience of Christ, being patient with, with, with them.

31:22.69
Nathan Pile
and And I find that my my piece of like, if I'm going to be, like, I need God's forgiveness and mercy, um, and love in my life.

31:38.79
Nathan Pile
Uh, and if I'm called to live that out, that patience has to be a part of it for me as well. But sometimes to be fair, my patience for others

31:52.70
Nathan Pile
I want this, I want that kind of, I want, I want and an extreme level of patience for God for me, but I at times struggle with providing the same extreme patience for others because in the midst of me trying to be merciful and, and forgiving and loving, um, I also have my own, like,

32:00.87
Kevin Shock
Sure.

32:16.73
Nathan Pile
I'm so frustrated with this person. um Why can't they, you know, we've talked about this how many times and why do we have to go fix it again?

32:19.51
Kevin Shock
sure

32:23.61
Nathan Pile
um Kind of a thing. And so ah that struggle of of living into the pace the patience that Christ sets as an example for us,

32:35.68
Nathan Pile
um who who who are coming to believe, who are living um in the way,

32:46.90
Nathan Pile
like that's ah you know I hear that as our call, but I also feel pretty overwhelmed by it. um Maybe not overwhelmed. um I feel very um like I'm, like I'm going to fall short of that patience, even though I know I need to try to do it

33:01.68
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

33:06.78
Nathan Pile
um

33:09.61
Nathan Pile
so that I too can mirror the love that I've experienced from God in my own life and in my own um presence with others um And so I've, you know, I've, I've noticed that patience in others, I've know, I've witnessed it in others, not just in the Christ, but in, in others who I've walked this earth with.

33:29.41
Nathan Pile
um And, and even their patience with me. but there are, there are definitely times where I fall short of, of reflecting that patience to others.

33:43.37
Nathan Pile
Um, when it's my turn to be the patient one, uh, or to keep, to keep, um, forgiving, or to keep teaching, you know, um, the way that we live together.

33:58.34
Nathan Pile
Uh, and so that part of it is, And of course, I say that at the end of my summer when I'm probably at my, uh, at least a known time when I'm at my shortest, my patience is at their shortest level.

34:10.85
Nathan Pile
um And so, you know, a couple weeks from now, it'll be different because I will have rested a little bit and and cared for myself.

34:19.37
Nathan Pile
But of course, you know, part of me also says, well, then why don't you let yourself get to the place where you're not able to be patient? You know how. And so it's that wrestling with how how to.

34:33.69
Nathan Pile
how to reflect the light that I've experienced in the Christ. um And if patience is the way, I feel as if at times I'm just going to fail miserably.

34:45.09
Nathan Pile
um

34:45.04
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

34:45.73
Nathan Pile
That makes me think of, there was a movie, Kevin, when you and I were coming out of college. um What was it? Oh, the movie was called Notting Hill. And it was the um the sister of Hugh Grant's Um, Hugh Grant brings his girlfriend who happens to be a famous movie star, Julia Roberts into the house.

35:07.56
Nathan Pile
They're having like dinner with family and friends.

35:09.42
Kevin Shock
oh

35:10.17
Nathan Pile
And the, and the sister says, this is one of those moments where, you know, I could just really make a good impression and I'm just going to fail miserably.

35:20.66
Nathan Pile
Like that's the, like, like she's just over bubbling over top in her enthusiasm to meet this, uh, famous actress, uh, who her brother is dating. and And like, I have the same feeling, like, like I've been blessed and, and, and forgiven because of the Christ. And yet I know this idea of patience. I'm just going to fail miserably

35:41.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

35:43.82
Nathan Pile
kind of that, that feeling of this. So.

35:46.38
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah. And actually hearing you say all of that, really makes me wonder, um it is is there something more to what I was talking about before that that gratitude helps us to focus on what God has done? and And we human beings have a tendency to focus on either what what we have accomplished or what we have failed.

36:11.11
Kevin Shock
Because I, I know, I'm not necessarily hearing this on what you've said, Nathan, but I know it to be true for myself, that if I

36:22.53
Kevin Shock
find myself thinking, oh, I know how much mercy God has shown me. I know how much patience God has shown me. I should really show more mercy and patience with other people. I get right.

36:33.58
Kevin Shock
ah what's What's the first, the first word of that sentence is "I" but then it, then it turns into, I need to be the most patient.

36:40.81
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

36:43.34
Kevin Shock
I need to be the most merciful. ah So, you know, changing myself, changing myself,

36:50.61
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

36:50.79
Kevin Shock
which also is a fallacy in Christian theology, ah from being the worst human being to being the best human being because of what Christ has done for me.

36:59.23
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Right.

37:00.75
Kevin Shock
We, we don't, we don't possess that power. We don't possess that authority to take ourselves from worst to best.

37:04.36
Nathan Pile
No.

37:08.20
Kevin Shock
If we could, there'd be no need for Christ. Um, and so in the same way, h things like patience,

37:19.94
Kevin Shock
gentleness, kindness, those are, those are fruits of the spirit. And I appreciate that word fruits because it's something that the spirit has to grow within us.

37:30.02
Kevin Shock
I do think, I think that we participate in it, but I think it happens by ah a good center and focusing on what God has done and not how we could be better, but how, what God has done for us.

37:48.47
Kevin Shock
Um, And again, like I said, I'm, I'm not necessarily hearing that in what you said. I know my own like line of thinking what when it comes to when it comes to me saying something like, oh, I really should be kinder to this person or I need to be more patient with this person.

37:58.52
Nathan Pile
Sure. Sure.

38:09.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:12.21
Kevin Shock
Well, that's the other.

38:13.54
Nathan Pile
But it's a pretty human, that's a pretty human response. not Not justifying it, not justifying.

38:16.27
Kevin Shock
Oh, of course it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:18.71
Nathan Pile
But I think what you're reflecting, I would ah I would echo that.

38:19.54
Kevin Shock
No, it is a human response. Yeah.

38:23.58
Nathan Pile
um And you that you have that feeling. um

38:31.54
Nathan Pile
but it's But I think it also can make us feel like that we're on, no I don't want to. um Like we need God's help to make these.

38:44.47
Nathan Pile
to to make that shift in our own lives for others.

38:47.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

38:48.47
Nathan Pile
um So you're right. It's not about us doing it. Again, this is our Lutheran, um our Lutheran lens very much sticking out here or being talked about between Kevin and I here that it's, that this is God's acting

39:01.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right.

39:06.50
Nathan Pile
Like Nathan can't be more patient just because Nathan puts his mind to it. Nathan needs the support of the Holy Spirit, ah the, you know, the divine to to help make that happen.

39:18.56
Kevin Shock
right

39:21.51
Nathan Pile
um

39:24.61
Nathan Pile
And I think when we have

39:29.49
Nathan Pile
a um a vantage point of being more grateful, as you're saying, that might help us help us position ourselves in a way that we might

39:44.94
Nathan Pile
ah look at the world differently, look you know alter our our lens

39:48.06
Kevin Shock
hmm. Sure.

39:51.54
Nathan Pile
um in the world, ah the the pair of glasses that we wear, if we can look more gratefully in the world.

39:58.42
Kevin Shock
sure

39:58.62
Nathan Pile
And it doesn't, that and because that shows us the idea of gift being given. I'm grateful, I'm thankful for something that somebody else has done for me, that that God has done for me.

40:10.29
Nathan Pile
And it's not about I, Nathan, have to change to meet the gift that God has given. Rather, the gift has been given, and because the gift is given, then I'm called to to make the, um, make the gift available to others.

40:26.50
Kevin Shock
Yep.

40:28.05
Nathan Pile
So, all right, I'm going to this a third time.

40:30.40
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah, let's do it a third time.

40:35.61
Kevin Shock
All right. 1 Timothy 1, verses 12 through 17. I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man.

40:50.96
Kevin Shock
But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief. and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus. This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.

41:03.28
Kevin Shock
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them. But here is why I was treated with mercy, so that in me as the worst, Christ Jesus could demonstrate his utmost patience as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.

41:19.80
Kevin Shock
Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Nathan, how have you been treated with mercy?

41:35.35
Nathan Pile
Um, well, the most easy way to respond or to, to first think about this for me is to think about where have I experienced compassion from others, um, in the midst of my own, in the midst of my own life.

41:50.94
Nathan Pile
So where, where has someone come and walked alongside me, to, um, to um

42:04.42
Nathan Pile
to show me mercy and forgiveness to, you know, and so, um, whether it be, you know, usually it's times obviously that I feel most vulnerable, uh, as I think about mercy, um, that, that I, I, am a little bit more tuned into,

42:27.89
Nathan Pile
um

42:31.28
Nathan Pile
the, the, that, so that someone else has done something for me. So, you know, the, the easy, easy kind of things to kind of talk about, you know, on a, on a, on a podcast would be like times when you're sick and you're not feeling well and somebody goes the extra mile to help cal care for you.

42:49.42
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, that kind of compassion, um,

42:49.62
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

42:53.54
Nathan Pile
the compassion that, you know, for a couple of years ago, about this time a year, actually three years ago, um, when I had my heart attack and our board here at the camp gave me a couple of weeks to kind of mend and, and, um, take care of myself, um, following that, um, you know, that was their action showed me mercy,

43:18.30
Nathan Pile
um

43:21.67
Nathan Pile
you know, it's one of those things that we don't know exactly why the heart attack happened or heart attacks happened. Um, you know, for a while I blamed myself, maybe I had pushed myself too hard or,

43:37.17
Nathan Pile
but being able to have someone else to kind of say, it's okay, take, take the time you need. um Because we have, ah you know, I have my own negative voices, negative soundtracks in my own head telling me what I needed to kind of get myself around to and and get back up. and um And, you know, the but needing their, I needed their permission, I guess.

44:03.61
Nathan Pile
um to take some time off to mend. And though I had some, and so I, a, I was vulnerable. I felt guilty that I was dropping the ball.

44:14.25
Nathan Pile
Um, but their compassion in that moment allowed me to feel like I could do the thing that I needed to do. Um, you know, and, and, um, I live in a, uh,

44:24.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

44:32.13
Nathan Pile
ah family and in a household um where we have to forgive each other probably pretty regularly because we've raised our voices and shouted and said angry things um in a moment that probably weren't true, but then we need to kind of go back and and seek forgiveness um from the other individuals um involved, both within my household and within my bigger family.

44:57.94
Nathan Pile
um that Sometimes we say things that we hurt each other. um And so all of those places are... place sos So the place where I, again, experience mercy the most is through the interaction with other human beings

45:17.01
Nathan Pile
who have shown me mercy. and And probably the older I get,

45:23.21
Nathan Pile
um the more I recognize mercy. Maybe not in the moment, but... Though I think even in the moment, I recognize it better now than even five years ago.

45:36.63
Nathan Pile
um

45:39.29
Nathan Pile
But recognizing in the moment when someone is being merciful. um But then I think it also, that empowers me um or inspires me to also make sure that I extend that same mercy.

45:53.15
Nathan Pile
And and I think as a young adult, again, that arrogance was there that we talked about earlier, that Sometimes I think I overlooked the mercy and forgiveness that was shared um with me.

46:07.93
Nathan Pile
The good news is that those individuals kept sharing forgiveness and mercy with me over the years until I finally maybe started to make note and could draw the connection in that it was forgiveness and mercy and that that I too owed them forgiveness.

46:12.30
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:28.54
Nathan Pile
sometimes words of apology, but also sometimes that I too could um be an example of, of mercy to them. So

46:37.43
Kevin Shock
Mm.

46:40.80
Nathan Pile
I think though individuals in my daily life, obviously those who are closer to me, I have more, more moments of, um of experiencing mirth- mercy, mercy because obviously I make more mistakes in our in our daily life to together than I do with those that I encounter as and more of an acquaintance or and in passing.

47:08.93
Nathan Pile
um

47:12.06
Kevin Shock
Oh, for a second there, I thought you were calling yourself the worst among sinners, but no.

47:12.40
Nathan Pile
But I think...

47:16.50
Nathan Pile
not like No, no, no.

47:17.31
Kevin Shock
No, no, I see what you mean.

47:18.35
Nathan Pile
I still want to be I still want to be distance myself from that title a little bit.

47:22.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

47:22.73
Nathan Pile
um But I do ah do recognize that, you know, We have to forgive you know like I wouldn't have family and friends if they hadn't been merciful to me um already in our life together.

47:37.59
Kevin Shock
Yep.

47:40.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

47:42.59
Nathan Pile
And so um

47:47.28
Nathan Pile
things like overextending myself, my family gets used to me, um, uh, overextending myself, even sometimes to the point of getting myself sick or hurt.

47:58.86
Nathan Pile
And, um, they, they could have every reason to judge me and tell me I'm a blooming idiot. Uh, and sometimes they do, but behind it though, there is still compassion that they helped me nurse myself back together. And, and, um,

48:16.61
Nathan Pile
And, uh, encourage me when I get down trodden, uh, and, and I'm able to kind of move on from there. So, um, yeah.

48:28.43
Nathan Pile
So how about you, my friend? Uh, how have you been treated with mercy?

48:33.53
Kevin Shock
Well, you definitely um and dove at least partway into what I was thinking about, around this question. And that is, I, I think of what I was, I don't, I don't really, I probably could, don't if I really want to go into specifics, but, um, but what I was thinking about is that, you there are, there are, there are relationships that we're in that, that we are in that come easy.

49:03.37
Kevin Shock
And, um, I think that, unfortunately, I think that a lot of times those easy relationships are ones that don't necessarily have a lot of depth to them.

49:15.75
Kevin Shock
um Or maybe they maybe they do have some depth, but they're but there's there's not a lot of not a lot of conflict. Well, I'm, I'm talking myself into a corner here.

49:28.79
Kevin Shock
The thing that I was thinking about is that I have, there are relationships that I'm in, friendships, kind of, you know, collegial relationships.

49:41.38
Kevin Shock
um I mean, I'm sure it did extends to my spousal relationship too. ah Well, no, not exactly what I'm going to say the way I say it, but there are relationships that I think that would, for some people, it would be easy to check out of those relationships.

49:59.01
Kevin Shock
um You know, someone, someone hurts you, someone offends you you ultimately decide, ah, it's just not worth it to be in relationship with that person anymore.

50:10.72
Kevin Shock
I can, and I'm, I'm grateful that I can look around me and count a number of relationships that I'm in where there have been ebbs and flows, ups and downs over the years.

50:26.52
Kevin Shock
And there were probably at times good reason for some of those people to say, ah I'm just going to quit talking to Kevin. It's not worth it anymore. and and And people don't.

50:39.45
Kevin Shock
um So I think that's ah I think that's a merciful act, not just for the reasons that you name, that there's there is certainly mercy and forgiveness and patience exhibited in those relationships, but also mercy merciful in the sense that um that those relationships continue.

50:59.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah. yeah

51:01.05
Kevin Shock
and And for me, those relationships and those people are a a holy example because that is, I think that's a good way to describe the relationship that I have with God or God has with me or God has with us.

51:17.08
Kevin Shock
And that is that, you know, there are, there are, there are times in scripture where, well, one one time infamously,

51:28.41
Kevin Shock
where God says, I'm just going to wipe them all out and start again.

51:31.66
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

51:32.43
Kevin Shock
ah um And then, and then right after that, God says, okay, I'm never going to do that again. ah There are, you know, there are times in the gospel we're reading through right now, Luke's gospel, where Jesus says, how much longer am I going to have to put up with you people?

51:49.20
Kevin Shock
But,

51:50.16
Nathan Pile
yeah

51:52.96
Kevin Shock
but God sticks in there and Jesus continues to put up with the people that he's frustrated with. And, um, and I think that in and of itself is a sign of mercy.

52:05.94
Kevin Shock
God doesn't, God doesn't abandon. And I think I remember that when I take the time to consider that there, there are people in my life who have not abandoned though they could have.

52:18.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So I, that, yeah, And and you you you said a lot more that probably I could have also said, but you've already said it and said it certainly well.

52:33.88
Kevin Shock
So um ah that you know kind of skirts on the same thing that I was thinking.

52:40.35
Nathan Pile
Okay.

52:41.00
Kevin Shock
That those relationships, yeah. and And the way that forgiveness is shown, the way that mercy is shown is how I've experienced. Well, and I think it's fair to say I've experienced God's mercy through human beings.

52:53.28
Kevin Shock
Through the acts of human beings.

52:55.24
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. That's the most tangible way that I can say that I've experienced it.

52:59.78
Kevin Shock
Sure.

53:01.16
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

53:01.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

53:04.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

53:04.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well.

53:06.50
Nathan Pile
Well, and it's, and to me, it's a wonder and a blessing. um to have those individuals that share that. um

53:16.39
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

53:17.14
Nathan Pile
and And some have who have done it for their whole lives. um And and to be to be bluntly honest, sometimes I didn't know that they were doing it their whole lives.

53:28.32
Nathan Pile
um But I'm thankful for that they have and had done it for their whole lives and that I was a um a benefactor of their experience.

53:29.19
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

53:39.78
Kevin Shock
Sure.

53:40.38
Nathan Pile
um I benefited from them being forgiving and merciful.

53:48.20
Nathan Pile
And it showed me a sense of, you know, in the end, because of who they are, it also showed me a glimpse of who God is. so

53:55.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. yeah

54:02.33
Nathan Pile
right. um Additional texts.

54:07.54
Nathan Pile
ah This week, the Exodus chapter 32, verse 7 through 14. ah Moses begs the Lord to turn from anger against the Hebrews.

54:18.75
Nathan Pile
Psalm 51, verses 1 through 10. Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love. ah Luke 15 verses 1 through 10, looking for the lost sheep, the silver ah the silver coin, and Jesus eating with sinners.

54:36.94
Nathan Pile
um

54:39.79
Nathan Pile
That idea that God never gives up on us showing up there in Luke, as you've talked about kind of throughout here today.

54:43.33
Kevin Shock
Yep. There you go.

54:47.34
Nathan Pile
Jeremiah. So the semi-continuous readings, those readings that are um kind of more based in the Old Testament and and try to so give us a a ah more fuller reading of that.

55:00.91
Nathan Pile
those first Testament passages, Jeremiah four verses 11 through 12 and 22 through 28 judgment is spoken against Jerusalem and Psalm 14. The Lord looks down from heaven upon us all.

55:16.31
Nathan Pile
As always, Kevin, I have enjoyed our time for um wrestling with scripture together and and chatting. um Those of you listening, we would encourage you to continue to share, like Sherry, um thoughts and feelings that you have as you engage scripture with us. That always helps us too to hear um here's some of what you're thinking.

55:40.74
Nathan Pile
ah We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

55:44.67
Kevin Shock
And peace.