Episode 48: Psalm 113

Translation: Alter

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What spaces and times need more praise?

Additional texts:

Amos 8:4-7

1 Timothy 2:1-7

Luke 16:1-13

Jeremiah 8:18—9:1

Psalm 79:1-9

Transcript

00:00:01.15
Kevin Shock
Mmm, it is time to Tend.

00:00:04.76
Nathan Pile
Mm.

00:00:05.45
Kevin Shock
That's a, what a great introduction.

00:00:06.10
Nathan Pile
Mm. Mm. It's like you're getting ready for some vittles or something there.

00:00:08.51
Kevin Shock
I hadn't.

00:00:11.21
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:12.48
Nathan Pile
Mm. It's time.

00:00:13.61
Kevin Shock
I have been on a chicken tender kick lately. I've been embracing my inner five-year-old and and tenders and fries is really like, no, they don't have to be no they don't have to be dinosaur shaped.

00:00:16.40
Nathan Pile
Oh.

00:00:18.79
Nathan Pile
Mm. Like dinosaur shaped or what what are we talking about?

00:00:23.84
Kevin Shock
Just, you know, like good chicken tenders, like really good chicken tenders are hard to find, but you can find them around here.

00:00:29.59
Nathan Pile
Yeah. they They are like, so mostly at a restaurant is what you're talking about.

00:00:34.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. At a restaurant. Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:36.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Like we were just talking about this in our office here about, um, good chicken, fried chicken, or like that has light breading, but is, is well done.

00:00:43.25
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:00:47.06
Kevin Shock
Yes.

00:00:48.57
Nathan Pile
Like I can't stand the places that have too much breading on those chicken tenders.

00:00:54.22
Kevin Shock
No, it...

00:00:54.26
Nathan Pile
Like it's always kind of a sad thing for me.

00:00:57.11
Kevin Shock
Right. It's like, it's like a Reese's peanut butter cup.

00:00:58.03
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:01:01.60
Kevin Shock
The original peanut butter cup has the perfect ratio of chocolate to peanut butter. If you get one of those big cups or those thin cups, it just doesn't work out the same.

00:01:11.27
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Interesting.

00:01:12.77
Kevin Shock
You have to have the right ratio. I don't know why I'm so, well, I didn't eat a big lunch today. I didn't eat much of a lunch at all. Maybe that's why I'm thinking about chicken, chicken tenders and Reese's peanut butter cups.

00:01:19.17
Nathan Pile
So that's why the mm-mm-mm.

00:01:22.55
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:01:23.00
Nathan Pile
ah We're getting to the bottom of things here, folks.

00:01:24.60
Kevin Shock
Anyway. Hmm.

00:01:26.18
Nathan Pile
We're getting to the bottom of things.

00:01:28.08
Kevin Shock
Yes, we are. Anyway, that Nathan and I are happy to be together. We've already had much deep conversation, so let's translate that over to talking about Scripture as well. And today, we are looking at a reading from the Book of Psalms, Psalm 113, and we are using the altar translation, which we don't use very often at all, but it is a translation that is not available online.

00:01:38.44
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:01:56.60
Kevin Shock
So Nathan and I will be reading that from our, um sometimes books are made on paper. And so we have copies of those that we can read this translation from.

00:02:07.91
Kevin Shock
ah But you can still follow along using whatever Bible translation you have in front of you or using any of your favorites from BibleGateway.com or the Bible Gateway app.

00:02:18.97
Kevin Shock
It will be close enough that you will understand the sense of it and still get something out of it. Or you can just listen to me and Nathan as we ah read the text and then engage the three questions.

00:02:29.81
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:02:32.11
Kevin Shock
What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text and what spaces and times need more praise?

00:02:45.58
Nathan Pile
well I'll look forward to that conversation, that conversation when we get to that question. um Information about your hosts. ah We're men married to women in financially stable households.

00:02:56.19
Nathan Pile
White firmly in our middle age. College and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it.

00:03:07.02
Nathan Pile
But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

00:03:18.64
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience as you engage with Scripture with us. As Kevin said, we're going to read Psalm 113 from the altar translation.

00:03:37.25
Nathan Pile
Hallelujah! Praise, O servants of the Lord, praise the Lord's name. May the Lord's name be blessed now and forevermore. From the place the sun rises to where it sets, praised be the name of the Lord.

00:03:52.90
Nathan Pile
High over all nations, the Lord over the heavens, his glory.

00:03:59.71
Nathan Pile
Who is like the Lord our God? Who sits high above? Who sees down below? In the heavens and on the earth. He raises the poor from the dust, from the dung heap lifts the needy to seat him among princes, among the princes of his people.

00:04:18.53
Nathan Pile
He seats the barren woman in her home, a happy mother of sons. Hallelujah.

00:04:27.89
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. um Or you can listen to Kevin here as he shares what word, phrase, or image strikes him in this text.

00:04:44.27
Kevin Shock
ah Just a word about translation as we begin, because it's appropriate to what but the image that um captured my attention. ah Alter. so when when people translate scripture into different languages, there are different ways to do it. And Nathan and I have talked about this before. We've talked about direct translations versus paraphrases, where paraphrases take a lot more liberty to try to get the sense of scripture. Yeah.

00:05:13.65
Kevin Shock
But in any case, ah even with direct translations, what translators are attempting to do is, or what they want to do is they want to get it as close to the original text as possible, but it also has to make sense in the language in which they're translating it.

00:05:25.36
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:05:33.08
Kevin Shock
And so Sometimes there are idioms or phrases that are used that might not be exactly what the text says, but might be the same sense of um what, you know, what what biblical Hebrew or biblical Greek is is saying.

00:05:52.86
Kevin Shock
um But it has to make sense whenever we read it in modern English. um So one thing that you folks may notice as we read the altar edition is that There are ah lot there are incomplete sentences.

00:06:06.61
Kevin Shock
um he He doesn't he's because what Alter is trying to do is, Alter is trying to do it as direct a translation as possible. And he wants people to be able to understand what the meaning is, but he's not interested with things like sentence structure necessarily.

00:06:26.06
Kevin Shock
um

00:06:26.08
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:06:26.72
Kevin Shock
it's it's as close to the Hebrew as he can get it. And then he spends a lot of time writing commentary about, you know, well what this actually means. So anyway, that's all to say, I'm really interested in, um well, I'm interested in the image of verse three that says, from the place the sun rises to where it sets, praised be the name of the Lord.

00:06:50.98
Kevin Shock
Because when we read it in English, it would normally say, from sunrise to sunset.

00:06:57.26
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:06:57.65
Kevin Shock
So we're thinking of all day long, let there be praise to the Lord. This, the Hebrew, talks about it spatially, not temporally.

00:07:09.29
Kevin Shock
So from from as far on the horizon as you can see in the east to as far on the horizon as you can see in the west, let the praise of the Lord be there.

00:07:20.60
Kevin Shock
Um, and I'm just, ah it's really basic, but I was just, I was intrigued. I'm intrigued by that image that, that in, in the Hebrew, it's a spatial image.

00:07:32.98
Kevin Shock
Whereas in English, we would talk about it in ah in the sense of a temporal image. Um, and yeah, so it's instead of all day long, it's from as far as you can see in one direction to as far as you can see in the other direction.

00:07:50.74
Kevin Shock
Let the praise of the Lord be there. So I just think it's interesting. And that's Nathan and I talk about this a lot. One of the reasons we read from different translations is because when you hear something that's a little different from what you're used to hearing, especially in scripture that you know, well, um it makes you pay attention to it in a different way.

00:08:15.27
Kevin Shock
So.

00:08:15.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Well, and and um this section that you've selected, it does, I love the way that you've described this for us um because you do feel the geography in Alters translation.

00:08:31.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think so too.

00:08:31.50
Nathan Pile
Like, yeah.

00:08:32.11
Kevin Shock
Yeah, ah good. I'm glad you have that experience. Yes, I think that's a great way to say it.

00:08:34.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:08:36.47
Kevin Shock
You feel the geography. Yeah, yeah.

00:08:38.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah. um Because I think when we talk about daytime, like, like physically you can, you you can sense we're talking about a large distance of area and, and for the praise of the Lord to be happening means that the people and the creation that is from point A to point B is all in that.

00:09:04.12
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:09:05.64
Nathan Pile
Um, and so there's an artistry to it, I think in some ways, um, now I'm a person that likes geography.

00:09:05.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:09:12.80
Nathan Pile
I like, I like, Like when I go to a different country, it's more appealing to me. Like I like to go where the people are at and talk to the people, but I really like to see the countryside.

00:09:21.12
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:09:23.83
Nathan Pile
I really like to see what does the environment look like.

00:09:25.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:09:28.54
Nathan Pile
And so that this description, as you were talking about it, absolutely brings more to life to me, the the idea of

00:09:28.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:09:36.73
Nathan Pile
um the place where I see the sunrise and the place where I see the sunset, those are two points. And everything between those two points is wrapped up in the praise of God. um It just, it's a vivid, vivid image to me of what that is, as opposed to all day long, we should give our praise to God.

00:09:52.90
Kevin Shock
who

00:09:57.95
Nathan Pile
but it It says that pretty much the same thing, but it's,

00:09:58.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:01.38
Nathan Pile
to me, there's two different um two different images that kind of come to mind.

00:10:05.75
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah.

00:10:06.94
Nathan Pile
so Right.

00:10:07.54
Kevin Shock
Well, and, and alter does point that out in his commentary too, that the, that verse two has the temporal indication now and forevermore. And so then verse three has the, the spatial indication.

00:10:22.94
Kevin Shock
um So he so it does the Hebrew does address both time and space when it comes to where and how the praise of the Lord should be.

00:10:29.61
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:10:34.12
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:10:35.16
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:10:35.21
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, share your love of the land, Nathan, in a ah maybe I express it differently, but i'm I'm really intrigued and have become so in more recent years with how the land affects civilization.

00:10:44.70
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:10:53.68
Kevin Shock
and how, how things have been built up over time, depending on what the lay of the land is. Um, I spend a lot of time driving up and down valleys in central, in West central Pennsylvania.

00:11:07.37
Kevin Shock
And ah yeah get kind of weirdly excited about it. I mean, I just like to look, there's one spot I've never done it in the three and a half years that I've been in the Senate office, but there's one spot along,

00:11:21.22
Kevin Shock
um I-99 northbound, just um near the near the Blair Center County line, where I would really like some afternoon or evening to pull my car off on the side of the road and hike up to the top of this hill that's there and just look at the land from up there.

00:11:40.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:43.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:44.46
Kevin Shock
Because I think it would be, I just think it would look magnificent from up there.

00:11:44.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:48.83
Kevin Shock
I mean, it already looks magnificent when you're heading up up the hill out of bald eagle. But um yeah.

00:11:54.23
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:11:56.76
Kevin Shock
And then when we were at churchwide assembly earlier this summer, you know, people would always ask, oh, well, where what Senate are you from? Oh, well, where's that? Because a lot of people I grew up, I, of course I knew Allegheny.

00:12:12.63
Kevin Shock
I mean, there's so much around here about our mountain systems, a river that's named Allegheny, both in Pennsylvania and in Maryland.

00:12:16.25
Nathan Pile
right

00:12:21.02
Kevin Shock
and partly and in ah New York, partly. um But ah yeah, so I would say I'm from Allegheny. We're in the Ridge and Valley section of Northern Appalachia in West Central Pennsylvania.

00:12:38.74
Kevin Shock
And you could see if I was talking too long about that, people's eyes would start to glaze over.

00:12:42.82
Nathan Pile
Glaze over.

00:12:43.47
Kevin Shock
ah But but it like it's important to me that people know that

00:12:47.06
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:12:48.64
Kevin Shock
I'm from, I'm from Ridge and Valley, Northern Appalachia and, and, uh, and some of our synod is on the Allegheny plateau and yeah, but anyway.

00:12:57.27
Nathan Pile
yeah uh it was um again it's the phrase because he doesn't actually make them sentence questions um but who is like the lord um

00:12:59.72
Kevin Shock
So what about you, Nathan, what word phrase or image, uh, strikes you in this text?

00:13:14.97
Nathan Pile
Uh, cause in the translation, it just has a comma after it. And then who sits above ah high above who sits down below or who sees down below and in the heavens and on the earth question mark, finally.

00:13:22.38
Kevin Shock
Who sees, yeah.

00:13:27.37
Kevin Shock
Right, right. It's all one sentence, right?

00:13:28.12
Nathan Pile
It's all one sentence, right?

00:13:30.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:13:31.31
Nathan Pile
So, whereas today they would probably have broken this into several sentences. Um, uh, but it's that just a, a simple question in there.

00:13:36.78
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:13:41.28
Nathan Pile
um uh, for us, you know, the, the, again, it's one of those questions that has a, um, what we might consider to be a definitive answer.

00:13:54.64
Nathan Pile
Um, who is like the Lord? No one, no one is like the Lord.

00:13:59.29
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:14:00.98
Nathan Pile
Um, But it's there right after the the section that you were talking about of of of ah we're giving praise. We've said hallelujah. We're giving praise to the Lord.

00:14:13.92
Nathan Pile
um and who And then this question kind of pops up from the psalmist. Who's like the Lord? You know, for us to also reflect upon and recognize that God is is unique and um and though it doesn't, you know, that God is unique and that that we need to pause to recognize that as a part of God.

00:14:40.22
Nathan Pile
of of this section through this, of of recognizing that the the God um who has created and loves us and forgives us and and um and walks alongside us is not like anything else. And so taking a moment to,

00:15:00.97
Nathan Pile
to take that in. Again, off of your off of your image of standing on top of a mountain and looking out over the ah the view of the geography, you know taking a moment to to take in the vastness of of who else is like God.

00:15:16.91
Nathan Pile
Well, no one is. Let's see that uniqueness. So it was just an it was just a ah part of that imagery there that kind of got painted for me as I as I was, I was reading it. It stuck out.

00:15:30.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that actually made me go to the NRSVUE and look. And actually the translation there isn't much different, but I think the thing that makes it seem different when we're reading the Alter translation is that all of the incidences of who are capitalized.

00:15:47.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:15:48.21
Kevin Shock
because he sees that as a reference to the holy name. Yeah. So that, yeah, it makes it look different, but there, there are some, there are some subtle differences that are, that are there in the text.

00:16:00.76
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:03.35
Nathan Pile
So what Kevin is saying is yeah those of you that don't have the altar translation, don't have the capital. Each of those places where it says who, when when we when you hear us read that, who is like the Lord our God, who sits high above, who sees down below in the heavens and on the earth.

00:16:20.32
Nathan Pile
All three of those who's have a capital W.

00:16:23.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right.

00:16:23.65
Nathan Pile
um And so, again, that's altar kind of showing that the who belongs to God.

00:16:24.15
Kevin Shock
Right. Yep.

00:16:31.79
Nathan Pile
um

00:16:32.32
Kevin Shock
right Right.

00:16:32.62
Nathan Pile
And so um when when addressing, even though those aren't three different sentences um in this translation, it's each time who shows up, it gets a capital letter.

00:16:45.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you, if you just glance at it as a as person, person whose first language is English. It looks like the beginning of three separate sentences.

00:16:55.39
Nathan Pile
Oh, three sentences. It does.

00:16:56.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:57.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:16:57.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:58.42
Nathan Pile
But that's another great point.

00:17:02.11
Nathan Pile
that To be honest, I didn't even notice until you brought it up. So.

00:17:06.64
Kevin Shock
Oh, well, see it's a, it's so ingrained in us that

00:17:12.65
Nathan Pile
It is right. I like, like I looked at it and and part of my hesitation, this was a section that I, again, because it's because of his translation, I caught myself a couple of times thinking about what, ah what did I just read?

00:17:14.29
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:17:26.71
Nathan Pile
Did I read that right?

00:17:27.45
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:17:28.02
Nathan Pile
um Because of, of that um down through there. And when I read who is like the Lord, I did take note and say, Oh, that's a comma. But then I went right down to who sits high and who sees down below.

00:17:40.70
Nathan Pile
you know, each time recognizing, oh there's commas here. It's kind of weird. um But didn't see the who didn't see the capital W.

00:17:49.16
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The other thing when we're talking about translation that we have to keep in mind is that, uh, the Psalms are poetry, they're hymnody. And so it's, it's much harder to translate poetry than it is to translate prose.

00:18:05.84
Kevin Shock
Um, because of all of the imagery and metaphor and idiomatic speech and all that kind of stuff that's by nature, a part of poetry.

00:18:06.73
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:18:19.91
Kevin Shock
But also even as far as just like, where do I split the line? That kind of thing.

00:18:28.97
Nathan Pile
anything yeah anything else um I will notice because I just my- I happen to kind of go in between these I, I happen to glance down at the notes um

00:18:28.98
Kevin Shock
Any who. No, I don't think so. No.

00:18:44.28
Nathan Pile
But you and I talked about the geography, east and west, from point A to point B. The piece after that, he notes um that the existence is is not just on the horizontal plane, but it's also on the vertical plane, which the next sentence says, high over all of the nations, the Lord over the heavens, his glory.

00:18:59.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.

00:19:05.49
Nathan Pile
um

00:19:06.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:19:07.47
Nathan Pile
And so it's not just east and west or even north and south.

00:19:09.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right.

00:19:12.65
Nathan Pile
It's also... under the ground to above the ground, you know, like that there's a, there's a level of that.

00:19:17.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:19.34
Nathan Pile
So like on all planes, praise should be given to God on all planes of existence.

00:19:25.37
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:19:28.46
Nathan Pile
praise should be given to God. And so, so that was, which is an interesting point.

00:19:30.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:33.36
Nathan Pile
Again, we talked about the interestingness of the, of the geography of it. um But then that, that sentence that is in between what you've said and what I've said also says it extends that up and down, you know, so.

00:19:47.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah. yeah yeah And I, I'm glad you, I'm glad you pointed that out because in my mind, and I didn't really talk about this, but in my mind, because of that spatial metaphor or that spatial imagery,

00:20:01.66
Kevin Shock
I was also thinking about, if we're talking about the the sun as far east as we can see it and the sun as far west as we can see it, we're also talking about when the sun is overhead as high up as we can see.

00:20:15.44
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:20:16.15
Kevin Shock
um

00:20:16.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:20:16.70
Kevin Shock
In all of that space, all of that space, the name of the Lord is to be praised. um Of course, you're not going to look at the sun whatever its ah whenever it's right above you um or even on the horizon.

00:20:28.85
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:20:29.81
Kevin Shock
um but But he is talking, and he's the, well, he, the, the psalmist is talking about, um, as far as you can see in any direction and, and even what you can't see below you, God sees.

00:20:41.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:20:49.13
Kevin Shock
And I like that altar altar uses that, that verb who sees down below in the heavens and on the earth. um the NRSV uses looks. And I just feel like that's a bit different.

00:21:02.51
Kevin Shock
Like, I feel like you can look for something and not see it. But if you're seeing it, you're seeing it. and And God is the one who sees. Yeah.

00:21:12.92
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:21:13.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Let's, ah I'll read it a second time and we'll talk more. Psalm 113. Hallelujah. Praise, O servants of the Lord.

00:21:24.80
Kevin Shock
Praise the Lord's name. Amen. May the Lord's name be blessed now and forevermore. From the place the sun rises to where it sets, praised be the name of the Lord. High over all nations, the Lord, over the heavens, his glory.

00:21:39.13
Kevin Shock
Who is like the Lord our God, who sits high above, who sees down below in the heavens and on the earth? He raises the poor from the dust, from the dung heap lifts the needy, to seat him among princes, among the princes of his people.

00:21:55.21
Kevin Shock
He seats the barren woman in her home, a happy mother of sons. Hallelujah. Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:22:06.02
Nathan Pile
Uh, I, think the easiest, um, answer is hallelujah. Um, which would be praise.

00:22:13.67
Kevin Shock
Praise, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:13.94
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:22:17.47
Nathan Pile
So, um again, when and I ah my my Hebrew scholar stuff is very lax. It's very I didn't I didn't take Hebrew in seminary.

00:22:32.65
Nathan Pile
um I audited a Hebrew class because I didn't need the credits. But that also meant that towards the end of the semester. I stopped going.

00:22:43.46
Kevin Shock
You checked out. and Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, I knew where that was going.

00:22:45.89
Nathan Pile
I had other papers that had to be write,

00:22:47.32
Kevin Shock
and

00:22:48.11
Nathan Pile
had other papers to write. Anyway, um but is is praise Hallel?

00:22:57.21
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, yeah, yes.

00:22:59.21
Nathan Pile
Literally. that so

00:23:00.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I, yeah, I don't I can't give you the exact but but I do remember from my Hebrew coursework in seminary that hallelujah means you all, like you plural.

00:23:12.89
Kevin Shock
Praise God.

00:23:16.52
Nathan Pile
So you, yeah, is all you all.

00:23:20.41
Kevin Shock
No, no, no.

00:23:22.03
Nathan Pile
No.

00:23:22.76
Kevin Shock
It's in the hallelujah. Hallelujah means every like you, you all praise the, the "jah" is the God part.

00:23:25.59
Nathan Pile
Hallelujah.

00:23:30.96
Nathan Pile
Okay.

00:23:32.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um Yes. And it's, it's a

00:23:39.23
Kevin Shock
it's ah it's like It's like saying everybody praise God, but it's a command. Like, I am telling you, plural, to praise God.

00:23:49.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:23:50.42
Kevin Shock
That's what it is. Yeah. So anyway, yes.

00:23:52.08
Nathan Pile
but Well, just because as that sticks out, the translation would have this word Hallel like three times. Boom, boom, boom.

00:24:01.63
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:24:02.92
Nathan Pile
um Because we translate it in English, as we translate it in English, it's it's a hallelujah.

00:24:03.39
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah, that's interesting. I don't know what the...

00:24:09.11
Nathan Pile
Praise, O servants of the Lord. Praise the Lord's name. um So if Hallel is praise,

00:24:19.27
Nathan Pile
like there's some alliteration that we don't, we're not seeing.

00:24:23.83
Kevin Shock
you're You're absolutely right.

00:24:24.34
Nathan Pile
um

00:24:24.95
Kevin Shock
Yes. I'm assuming that you're right. Yeah.

00:24:27.76
Nathan Pile
um That's a part of this passage. And, and it's interesting to think, hallelujah, to mean, to be the command, as you just said, like,

00:24:41.13
Nathan Pile
Every year at Palm Sunday, we all sing hallelujah, throw our hands up in the air um as as if that's the word of praise.

00:24:46.76
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:24:50.60
Nathan Pile
And it is, but really it's a command to praise. So we're saying we're saying hallelujah, praise the Lord. But we're also saying those of you that hear us saying hallelujah, you should also be saying hallelujah.

00:25:07.48
Kevin Shock
h

00:25:08.98
Nathan Pile
which is just an interesting um an interesting additional piece to that word hallelujah.

00:25:16.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. um I'm looking at the, I'm not even going to attempt to read this in Hebrew, but looking at, I know, I know, but it's been so long.

00:25:28.46
Nathan Pile
Well, you went to class though. You were just a minute a ago, moment ago.

00:25:33.27
Kevin Shock
And and and frankly, I'm looking in interlinear translation online.

00:25:38.75
Nathan Pile
Okay.

00:25:39.59
Kevin Shock
And so it it actually writes it out backwards because it writes it in the direction of the English and not in the direction of the Hebrew.

00:25:44.55
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. okay

00:25:46.75
Kevin Shock
um But Hallelu is repeated, occurs three times in that first verse.

00:25:54.40
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:25:55.23
Kevin Shock
And then twice what or once with Yah at the beginning, hallelujah. And then twice with what what Jewish people would say, I don't know,

00:26:05.79
Kevin Shock
but is but is the ah because because of the Jewish tradition slash a law of not speaking the name of God, the tetragrammaton, what we in Protestant Christianity often say as Yahweh, Jewish people will not say that.

00:26:30.72
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:26:30.89
Kevin Shock
won't verbalize it because it, the name of the name of God itself is holy. And so you don't, it's, so it's holy in the sense that it's set apart. You don't say it. So what they do, what Jewish people do, most Jewish people, I don't know if it's true for all. I think it is, um, is that anytime that word that we would pronounce Yahweh or something close to it, uh, occurs in scripture, they say Adonai instead, which means Lord.

00:26:59.99
Nathan Pile
Lord.

00:27:01.13
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So ah if we were to say it the way that it's written in Hebrew, there would be just a lot of repetition of hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah. I mean, it would, it would be a lot of that.

00:27:14.32
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:27:14.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Like you said, transliteration over and over again. In fact, there's only, there's, there's really only two words or, or some form of Yahweh.

00:27:22.41
Nathan Pile
That's not hallelujah or Yahweh.

00:27:25.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:26.23
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:27:26.55
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:29.28
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:27:29.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:33.72
Nathan Pile
So, but that's my ah giving giving thanks and praise to this limitless God

00:27:44.58
Nathan Pile
in and in in big and bold ways as a part of our life would be what I feel called to.

00:27:52.93
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:27:56.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:59.92
Nathan Pile
and And I guess in some ways, going back to my first peace a little bit, but also recognizing who this Yahweh is, who who God is, how big and unique God is, was a part of that call.

00:28:20.60
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:28:24.52
Nathan Pile
Because the tail end of this is definitely more ah about that.

00:28:30.58
Nathan Pile
The words... Paint for us a picture of how big this God is or call us towards examining how big this God is.

00:28:42.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:28:46.22
Nathan Pile
What about you, my friend? what word or what What do you feel called towards?

00:28:48.00
Kevin Shock
um

00:28:51.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I mean, I mean, praise is a,

00:28:55.51
Kevin Shock
Praise is certainly the thing that, yes, like you said, automatically comes to mind. um I don't know. We don't often describe what praise but praise means. i ah I guess that would be worthwhile talking about a little bit. Like, what does it actually mean whenever the whenever Scripture says hallelujah?

00:29:14.49
Kevin Shock
um Hallelujah.

00:29:21.40
Kevin Shock
So I think the image that comes to mind for me is that

00:29:26.93
Kevin Shock
Praising God does not necessarily mean hands up in the air, shouting and singing.

00:29:36.82
Kevin Shock
But I think it does mean reflecting the things that are talked about in the psalm, the name of the Lord, the glory of the Lord, reflecting that in our lives. and And as the psalmist says here, ah now and forevermore, and every place we roam in the earth.

00:29:57.81
Kevin Shock
Um, I think that for a lot of people, well, I don't want to say for a lot of people, for me, I assume it's for a lot of people, but for me, um, praise can happen in a church setting when we're all singing together or, or praying together or proclaiming together.

00:30:21.52
Kevin Shock
um But ah outside of that context, praise for me often happens in a private setting.

00:30:28.54
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:30:29.55
Kevin Shock
if i'm If I'm praising God for something, it's during my own personal worship or devotional time, and it's just me and God. But this gives me the image of ah go out into the world.

00:30:47.26
Kevin Shock
and let everything you say and do reflect the name of the Lord, the name of the, glory of the Holy one.

00:30:56.29
Kevin Shock
And I don't know that, I don't think that that's a necessarily a faithful translation of what praise means, but, or interpretation, but I, but I'm, I'm hearing that I'm kind of getting that sense when we read this Psalm together.

00:31:11.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:31:16.44
Nathan Pile
Um, uh, your, your image there. So it got me thinking about our summer and one of our, one of the things that we do at camp is that we host a week with our, um, Muslim siblings in faith. Um, and they pray multiple times a day and they'll do that all together when they're here at camp.

00:31:39.01
Nathan Pile
Um, um, But it does make me think about this idea of community

00:31:48.08
Nathan Pile
praise. You know, what would it look like? You know, I've I've I can't say that I've visited a Muslim country.

00:31:58.79
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:31:59.26
Nathan Pile
But, you know, I guess I've seen pictures people people, what I would say, more in in town or in their community and outside praying in a Muslim context than we would do necessarily as a part of our devotional life as Christians.

00:32:21.85
Nathan Pile
Like we don't normally, as you said, when we pray to and and do our own kind of devotional time, it's in private unless we're in the church building itself. And we don't normally go out and do that kind of praise in other settings, unless you're at a church camp, maybe, um kind of a thing.

00:32:43.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:32:45.37
Nathan Pile
um Or you're at some kind of a church picnic and you've all gone to the state park for the weekend or, know, for that Sunday. and And so you're in that space, but we're, we don't seem to do that very often as Christians, right?

00:33:00.33
Nathan Pile
um And so that idea of of um community praise together made me think a little bit about our our siblings um in faith ah with our Muslim siblings. and And like, it just made me curious, is it is it more...

00:33:22.65
Nathan Pile
Is that more common in though like in a Muslim nation, someplace where I haven't actually visited? Though I've seen, again, I've seen pictures. Is that just media?

00:33:35.76
Nathan Pile
you know, kind of pictures, or is that more common that those, the, you know, people that live in those countries are used to celebrating more in community, you know, giving praise in community a little bit more than we are as Christians. so So it's just a curious curiosity for me, I guess.

00:33:53.66
Kevin Shock
I, yeah, I mean, I, I, I also have never visited a Muslim majority country. um I have spent time amongst Muslims in different countries um and and and in the US. But no, I think there definitely is an element of um there's a more because of the pillars of Islam.

00:34:18.24
Kevin Shock
There's more of a public sense to celebrating certain things like the, like the E to the breaking of the fast.

00:34:21.30
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:34:24.30
Kevin Shock
I think that is done more in community, but I mean that, you know, that might also be, you could make that comparable to like, you know, Easter sunrise service or something like that. I mean, there, there are probably comparisons, but I think the thing that is much different in majority Muslim countries is that the call to prayer the call to prayer is a pillar.

00:34:48.99
Kevin Shock
prayer The prayers themselves are a pillar of the faith. And so the call to prayer is a public thing.

00:34:57.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:34:58.35
Kevin Shock
And, you know, I think we've all seen images or heard audio of the call to prayer going out on the loudspeaker from the mosque the masjid.

00:35:02.73
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:35:07.47
Kevin Shock
And then people... and um and then people either in their place that they are, or, or if they're near enough, I think they travel to the mosque, um, to then gather in prayer for those ah five, five times a day, I think it is.

00:35:27.32
Nathan Pile
Yep.

00:35:28.07
Kevin Shock
Um, so I think there is a sense that like, I, I, that in and of itself is there's a sense of, okay, we're all doing this together.

00:35:37.99
Nathan Pile
This together. Sure. Sure.

00:35:39.75
Kevin Shock
There's, there's an expectation of, uh, Yes, well, this is something we're all doing. um And it would be a little like, like, I, I don't know, this discussion is making me think, what would I do in that scenario?

00:35:53.28
Kevin Shock
um Would I, probably would not pray. I could not begin to pretend to pray the way that Muslims pray in that prayer.

00:36:04.96
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:36:05.42
Kevin Shock
um I have, I have prayed alongside Muslims. And That is an interesting experience because the thing that I noticed is that, so when you go into a mosque to pray, I did this when I was in seminary ah through a class I was taking where we were we were visiting different um different different places, different houses of worship and faith in the Philadelphia area.

00:36:36.08
Kevin Shock
And so this this mosque that we went to, we were we were invited to pray with them. And so the women went in the one room, the men went in the other room.

00:36:47.76
Kevin Shock
And when you, when they line up for prayer, it's not a find whatever seat in the pew you want. You are. the The first line of people, you line up from one end of the carpet to the other, and you're standing shoulder to shoulder.

00:37:00.80
Nathan Pile
Shoulder. Yeah. shoulder yeah

00:37:02.48
Kevin Shock
And then you start the second line and all those people are shoulder to shoulder. And if there's room in that line to spread out, you don't spread out your shoulder to shoulder. So that even though I don't speak or understand any Arabic, ah well, I mean, maybe a word here or there, but but other than that, I certainly didn't understand what was going on.

00:37:23.46
Kevin Shock
No one had to give us stage directions. Like when we were, when we were standing, we were standing and then you're standing close enough that when it's time to get down and kneel, you feel the shoulders on either side of you, pulling you down to do that.

00:37:40.17
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:41.01
Kevin Shock
And, um, and and that is a, ah there was, there was something in that experience that made me long. for a similar kind of feeling in the Christian experience. Like we're all doing this together because not because it's not because we want to do it together. I mean, although we do, I think if we're there, but because it is a, it is an inherently communal act.

00:38:10.00
Kevin Shock
And I think that's a big difference between the Muslim faith and Western Christianity, as we understand it, it might be different in certain other branches of Christianity.

00:38:22.00
Kevin Shock
But I think that we tend to see ah the practice of our faith as more um an individual thing that we happen to gather together for.

00:38:31.16
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:38:31.87
Kevin Shock
Then we see it as this is something that we are doing as one body.

00:38:38.28
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:38:39.97
Kevin Shock
So anywho, I, yeah, I, yeah,

00:38:42.57
Nathan Pile
no but that, all of that is, is, is it's a powerful image. um And we're talking about humans and, you know, I left space.

00:38:47.15
Kevin Shock
yeah it is.

00:38:51.43
Nathan Pile
I tried to leave space earlier when I talked about when that from East to West, all of creation is giving praise, like thinking about all of it in that moment, not just about what we, the humans are doing, but what all of creation that surrounds us is doing um in that moment of praise.

00:38:58.83
Kevin Shock
All, Yeah.

00:39:09.20
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:39:11.57
Nathan Pile
um You know, it's, it's, it's something to be sitting on this hillside outside of my office where the hillside chapel is at that looks out over the county and be able to see for 25 miles.

00:39:24.47
Nathan Pile
Um, but you're listening to the birds chirp and the wind blows through the leaves on the trees.

00:39:29.20
Kevin Shock
Oh, sure.

00:39:32.09
Nathan Pile
And, um, you know, maybe a bunny hops through the middle of the, uh, corner of the grass over away from where other people are at. Like all of those things are happening,

00:39:43.97
Nathan Pile
um around us in those moments um when we're worshiping here outside at camp. and and and And of course we have some dogs at camp. And so dogs stroll freely through the service space sometimes um doing whatever the thing the dog is doing at that moment in time.

00:40:01.53
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:40:04.40
Nathan Pile
ah And so like all of that part of of when we're talking about um all of creation giving praise in its own ways um and being and and listening and being a part of that.

00:40:20.14
Nathan Pile
um It's a that, you know, that idea of being so close to another human being that their movements help dictate my movements, but also how can we be so in tune with the natural world around us that, that the natural world's movements also help us,

00:40:40.69
Nathan Pile
live into that, that idea of praise. Um, it's just a powerful piece, powerful piece.

00:40:51.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And um

00:40:54.85
Kevin Shock
I've had that experience. Something talking about the Luther League Chapel up there on the hillside um at camp. I've had that experience of lying down on a on a bench, a pew up there by myself looking upward.

00:41:14.66
Kevin Shock
And when the wind blows, All of those trees are swaying back and forth together.

00:41:22.12
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:23.14
Kevin Shock
It's, it's communal. It's communal. It's networked.

00:41:27.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:27.95
Kevin Shock
It's um there's not there's not one tree that sways any. Now they might not sway in. What's the word? They might not sway in exact unison, but they sway in rhythm with one another.

00:41:40.76
Nathan Pile
no

00:41:41.13
Kevin Shock
And um yeah, there's not there's not one tree that says, well, I'm going to swing. I'm going to sway harder.

00:41:47.96
Nathan Pile
and The rest of it.

00:41:48.12
Kevin Shock
so that I can praise God better.

00:41:48.80
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

00:41:50.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. They're all doing it together.

00:41:54.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:54.57
Kevin Shock
And I think, I think that we human beings, we have a, we already are, um, our instinct is already to have a, a streak of individualism in it, in us.

00:42:09.72
Kevin Shock
But I think our culture promotes that even more. Um, And I think it would be good for us to, I don't want to say lose our sense of individualism, but but be able to embrace a ah sense of interconnectedness more.

00:42:26.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:42:27.95
Kevin Shock
no Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, well, and never mind. No, I'm going to say it and and I'll say, take it with a grain of salt.

00:42:39.27
Kevin Shock
I don't think that God is as interested, take this with a grain of salt. I don't think that God is as interested in hearing a bunch of individual voices praising God as God is interested in hearing the whole nation praise God together.

00:42:52.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:42:55.37
Kevin Shock
ah Like there's a subtle difference to that, I think.

00:42:58.19
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:43:03.61
Nathan Pile
Yeah. I like it, though. I like that image.

00:43:07.64
Kevin Shock
Yep, me too. Me too. All right, why don't we look at it a third time?

00:43:11.67
Nathan Pile
Third time, Psalm 113. Praise, O servants of the Lord. Praise the Lord's name. May the Lord's name be blessed now and forevermore. From the place the sun rises to where it sets, praised be the name of the Lord.

00:43:26.63
Nathan Pile
High over all the nations, the Lord, over the heavens his glory. Who is like the Lord our God, who sits high above, who sees down below in the heavens and on the earth?

00:43:39.54
Nathan Pile
He raises the poor from the dust, from the dung heap lifts the needy, to seat him among princes, among the princes of his people. He seats the barren woman in her home, a happy mother of sons.

00:43:55.44
Nathan Pile
Hallelujah.

00:43:59.57
Nathan Pile
Kevin, what spaces and times need more praise?

00:44:07.16
Kevin Shock
Well, I think, I think I kind of answered this in the last question ah about, you know, every, every moment of the, of the day and every, every space where we roam, um,

00:44:21.29
Kevin Shock
to, to let our, lot to have our lives reflect the name of the Lord, the glory of the Lord. um So, I mean, it's, it sounds like a simple answer to be, well, I think every time in space needs more praise.

00:44:35.75
Kevin Shock
I think that's true, but I think that there, the two kind of things that I think about are um, places and spaces and times where there's distress.

00:44:35.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:44:49.62
Kevin Shock
Um, I think that we are good at, um, I think we're good at, at, oh gosh. Oh, I hate that this phrase came to my mind. Um, but there was a, there was a major school shooting yesterday as we record this and, uh, everybody thoughts and prayers, uh, which, gosh, anyway, that, why does our nation love guns more than it loves children?

00:45:15.21
Kevin Shock
Um,

00:45:20.26
Kevin Shock
think that they're I think that there's room in those times of grief and violence for praise as well. And and maybe not maybe not like, oh, thanks be to God for you know the things we still have, though this horrible thing has happened.

00:45:37.37
Kevin Shock
I think that there's a lot more space where people, that can be filled with people reflecting the glory of the Lord. And maybe be praise in those situations

00:45:51.17
Kevin Shock
just means more loving kindness.

00:45:57.20
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:45:58.89
Kevin Shock
Um, so that's one area, but the other area I think about are the, the, the everyday spaces and times when things are just going fine and we're not really thinking much about anything at all.

00:46:12.54
Kevin Shock
Um, that I think that, that it might make a difference in our world so to, to, be praising God. And especially, and now now I'm just, I'm grasping on,

00:46:29.12
Kevin Shock
I'm I'm grasping onto that together. um You all praise God. That's, or as my, as one of my Hebrew instructors at seminary said, y'all, that's what it says.

00:46:41.73
Kevin Shock
Y'all praise God. um That, that is praise that happens together and not just Well, I'm walking down the street not thinking about much stuff, but I'm on my own. And so I'm going to let my life reflect the glory of the Lord.

00:46:55.72
Kevin Shock
but What would it mean if we all let our lives reflect the glory of the Lord ah in those everyday spaces and times?

00:47:04.42
Kevin Shock
and I'm just wondering what that looks like a little bit. And

00:47:13.23
Kevin Shock
I just want to go back briefly and address something and I said. I said it because it came from my heart. And I'm sure that there are people who would find fence with it.

00:47:23.73
Kevin Shock
Maybe not people who listen to this podcast, but it has to do with the togetherness that you and I've been talking about, Nathan. And what I said before, God does not want a bunch of individual voices praising God.

00:47:37.65
Kevin Shock
God wants the whole nation to praise God together. And so when I said but our nation loves guns more than it loves children, I don't think there's any individual person in our nation who would say that they love guns more than they love children.

00:47:55.33
Kevin Shock
But the message that is sent through our nation's inaction is that we collectively love guns more than we love children.

00:48:07.40
Kevin Shock
and it And it's a, the voice is louder than I think people realize it is. and, and I, And I fear I mean, I fear a lot of things. i I fear that we don't think it's a loud voice, that that's not the message we send to the rest of the universe.

00:48:28.31
Kevin Shock
But I also fear that that's what God hears. God does not hear our praise. God hears that we love individual rights and tools for violence more than we love our children.

00:48:48.47
Kevin Shock
I think if an alien life form were to come and see how we deal with these things, it would be clear to them.

00:49:00.21
Kevin Shock
So not to, not to bring a whole podcast about praise down, but, but there's something about collective voice. There's something about collective voice. Okay.

00:49:09.57
Nathan Pile
Well, and I appreciate your, um, your shift here in the, in that reflection a little bit. Um, because the-

00:49:22.86
Nathan Pile
your passion for the, the, the children among us, the young among us, the, those who essentially have to live by the, the rules and structure that adults put upon them.

00:49:39.17
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and they don't have the power to change the politics and, or the laws of the land because they're children. Um, they are, so they are saddled with our communal decisions.

00:49:54.35
Nathan Pile
and it affects their lives.

00:49:57.73
Nathan Pile
um There's no doubt to me that there is more fear in school-aged children going to school today than there were in the time that you and I went to school. And 20 years before that, and 20 years before that, and 20 years before that.

00:50:13.63
Nathan Pile
So anybody that's alive, kids going to school today have more fear going to school than at any time

00:50:23.62
Nathan Pile
you know, and, and our, and, and anyone who's alive lifetime, other than maybe people that are living in war torn worlds where, where, you know, terrible things are happening.

00:50:35.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:50:36.48
Nathan Pile
But as Americans, as American Christians, this would be, um, a reality. Um, uh, and,

00:50:45.87
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:50:49.33
Nathan Pile
And that others in, you know, again, I'm a white male. And so, uh, there would be people that are alive that lived through, um the civil rights movement and the desegregation of, of schools.

00:51:06.88
Nathan Pile
And so that too would have been a difficult part of that, uh, of time.

00:51:10.57
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:51:11.63
Nathan Pile
Um, and, but I appreciate you you kind of coming back and revisiting the comment. Cause, cause don't think that we can make blanket statements like you've made and you, you have gone back and fixed that, that,

00:51:28.63
Nathan Pile
No, no gun lover is going to say that they love their gun more than they love a kid.

00:51:29.16
Kevin Shock
I don't know if I...

00:51:33.85
Nathan Pile
um No, no one's going to do that.

00:51:35.76
Kevin Shock
No, no one.

00:51:35.92
Nathan Pile
No, but.

00:51:36.32
Kevin Shock
no No, no one feels that way individually. No.

00:51:38.83
Nathan Pile
Right. And and so like we do have to have some sensitivity to it, but there is something about the common good, the good for all. And right now that is in deep, um we are and we are wrestling with that as a nation, as god as as people in the in the in the United States of, is my individual freedom greater than the common good of everyone?

00:51:57.77
Kevin Shock
Absolutely.

00:52:06.86
Nathan Pile
and And I don't think we've come down as ah as a society, yeah there's definitely not been a majority that has come down and decided one way or the other of where we stand with that. We're trying to do both.

00:52:18.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:52:19.10
Nathan Pile
and And maybe we're trying to do both and we can't do either one well.

00:52:19.51
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:52:25.79
Nathan Pile
um Maybe that's a part of what this this struggle is um that's ah that's ah before us. And so... um

00:52:38.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So, um, I was, uh, my head went somewhere else because earlier today I had a similar conversation, but it's not this. And so I'd want to get that conversation in with this. Um, just would muddy everything too much.

00:52:50.44
Nathan Pile
Um, but this idea of how do we, the common good for all, is it greater than my independence as an American, my rights as an individual, um,

00:53:04.07
Nathan Pile
And what does, what that that wrestling is. And so I appreciated how you reframe that a little bit for us um and to wrestle with that um and and wondering, even posing a question to us of how does God look at us when we put our individual wants or freedoms ah up juxtaposed against the common good of all?

00:53:35.37
Nathan Pile
How does God look at that? and and And I think we've, ah in the three years, I can't believe we're coming up on three years of doing this podcast together, but on the three years that we've talked about um the scripture together over and over again, we see a God who is about all.

00:53:51.83
Nathan Pile
who strives to get God's people to focus on the bigger number, not on the smaller number, not the powerful, those who are just the powerful or just the leaders.

00:53:58.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:54:01.49
Nathan Pile
God is constantly trying to get us to, to open our, um, uh, our, um, boxes and let more people in, uh, and, and for us to be able to, um,

00:54:18.17
Nathan Pile
Welcome everyone even if they're different than we are. How how do we do that? And so that idea of the common good I think, especially in the Old Testament, the First Testament, I think we get a um ah rich sense of of that in our texts. and And again, I think from what we talked about around geography and both the horizontal and vertical planes, God is is trying to to say all of this is a part of of um my world, my kingdom.

00:54:49.71
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:54:51.19
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:54:51.32
Nathan Pile
and and And calling us into trying to broaden our own perspectives in that. and So that idea of common good is a strong piece for us in scripture. maybe not um Maybe we haven't been as good about talking about it in the last 50 years.

00:55:12.42
Nathan Pile
ah The last five years, it feels like we've been talking more about it. um But I do think that we, especially as... um as Americans have a, have a difficult position in that we've strived for a long time talking about our individual freedoms.

00:55:33.03
Nathan Pile
Um, and we've made that kind of a sacred cow for lack of a better term.

00:55:41.72
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:55:42.14
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:55:45.14
Nathan Pile
And so we've held it up sometimes on the same level as this idea of God's kingdom. and and And it's not the same. um Because, again, if we if we go to what Scripture kind of guy how scripture guides us, Scripture guides us in the good of all and not the good of one person or a group of people getting their way or their freedom in place.

00:56:12.83
Kevin Shock
Right, right. Yeah.

00:56:17.29
Nathan Pile
And that means for us, common good means sacrifice for some of us and, and, and, and no way, shape or form are we good as Americans sacrificing our, our, my things so that, that you next door can have that together we might compromise and find a common good for all of us.

00:56:41.99
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:56:42.60
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

00:56:43.66
Nathan Pile
Like, it's okay if I get what I want and you get what you want and we're still both okay and happy, that's fine. But again, that idea of compromise, me giving the giving up a little bit, because that's what compromise means, right? We have to give up a little bit of something so that we have something together that's in common that we move forward with.

00:57:05.66
Nathan Pile
that's That's a harder thing. That's a harder thing.

00:57:10.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And I've had conversations around that exact topic recently and ah tune into next week's episode where Kevin is undoubtedly going to talk about that more.

00:57:24.26
Kevin Shock
ah Based on the first Timothy text that we'll be reading, but in any case, um Nathan, what what about you for that answer for the third question? um What, what spaces and times need more praise?

00:57:37.99
Nathan Pile
I think you, you pretty much said without saying it all times need more praise. And so I don't feel like I can add to that um because all time means all times because you covered disasters, you covered um um good times, everyday time.

00:57:54.97
Nathan Pile
So I don't think really gave me anywhere that I could go separately from what you've said, because you pretty much covered the whole landscape. um That being said, um

00:58:07.97
Nathan Pile
I think the piece that stuck out to me by you from your question and from our conversation today is, um,

00:58:17.24
Nathan Pile
is how in my praise might I, might, might I be more inclusive and that image of shoulder to shoulder with other people of faith?

00:58:31.66
Kevin Shock
o Mm hmm.

00:58:36.11
Nathan Pile
You know, we do this together.

00:58:40.11
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:58:40.79
Nathan Pile
um That is a powerful image. and And how do we create more spaces and experiences where that happens together?

00:58:52.36
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

00:58:53.45
Nathan Pile
Um, because I vividly can see our, our, our summer camper that are hosted guests, um, from the Muslim faith here that are with us. And I can visibly see them as they, um, as they pray together, they're them being shoulder to shoulder in that.

00:59:10.81
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and I absolutely, I'm not, haven't been a part of their groups when they pray, um,

00:59:20.17
Nathan Pile
because I've never asked to be a part, like I pray separately from them because I'm always behind them. I'm waiting, you know we're waiting for the next thing in the schedule or something like that. And so we just all pause for that time. And I've prayed alongside them, but not shoulder to shoulder with them.

00:59:34.95
Nathan Pile
Um, but thinking about how do we do that together? Um, not just that week of camp, but all, all of the things that we do at camp and and all other aspects of life.

00:59:49.02
Nathan Pile
How might we be shoulder to shoulder in our praise together? Um, and, and do it in conjunction with all of the creation that surrounds us. Um, that's a powerful, a powerful piece for me.

01:00:04.76
Nathan Pile
Um, that, that we also make space for, for the rest of creation to be able to be a part of it. Um, not that I need to figure that out, but like we do worship outside here at camp.

01:00:19.83
Nathan Pile
And so ah at times I might think up to myself, Oh, listen to the birds giving thanks and praise.

01:00:25.91
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

01:00:26.31
Nathan Pile
Um, but how do, do not just think of that in the moment when I hear the birds? But as you said, that when the wind blows and the trees flex and bend and, and and sway,

01:00:43.47
Nathan Pile
How do I also try to encompass that in the midst of our time of worship together? Recognizing that we all in creation are giving that praise in that moment.

01:00:57.07
Nathan Pile
So something about intention for me, there's there's something in this about intention and being intentional about it um and and being intentional together. um So spaces and places, how can we be more intentional together?

01:01:12.91
Nathan Pile
um is kind of where I would like to land my answer.

01:01:18.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. All right.

01:01:22.15
Nathan Pile
right.

01:01:23.22
Kevin Shock
Thanks, buddy.

01:01:24.16
Nathan Pile
yeah

01:01:25.21
Kevin Shock
um There are some other texts that you could read ah that might help in your unpacking this text or other things that Nathan and I talked about. um Amos 8 verses 4 through 7 contains warnings to those who trample on the needy and the poor.

01:01:47.40
Kevin Shock
um Amos is a good challenging thing to read. ah 1 Timothy 2, verses one through seven There's one God, one mediator, Jesus christ. Christ Jesus, who gave himself for all people. There you go, Nathan. There's that all people.

01:02:04.28
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

01:02:04.52
Kevin Shock
ah Luke 16, verses 1-13. parable of a shrewd manager, faithful in little, faithful in much, serving God versus serving wealth.

01:02:16.35
Kevin Shock
And then our semi-continuous, are our Hebrew scripture readings that kind of go in a And a line throughout the whole summer, Jeremiah chapter 8, verse 18 through chapter 9, verse 1, the Lord laments over Judah.

01:02:32.87
Kevin Shock
And then Psalm 79, verses 1 through 9, deliver us and forgive us our sins for your name's sake. As always, we like to hear your reflections on and any of these texts.

01:02:45.76
Kevin Shock
um And Nathan, thank you for being engaged in this dialogue with me. This feels like a together thing that we do.

01:02:53.03
Nathan Pile
yeah

01:02:53.86
Kevin Shock
And friends, we look forward to tending our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:02:58.45
Nathan Pile
And peace.