Episode 56: 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13

Translation: New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How do you stay disciplined?

Additional texts:

Malachi 4:1-2a

Psalm 98

Luke 21:5-19

Isaiah 65:17-25

Isaiah 12:2-6

Transcript

00:00:01.86
Kevin Shock
It is a good day for whatever you are doing right now. I hope it is at least. don't know. but I'm assuming, I'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast, you're not currently like, um, in, in some kind of crisis mode or something like that. Um, I can't imagine that that's usually the case, but anyway, it's probably a good day. I hope it's a good day wherever you are, dear listener. And, um,

00:00:29.77
Kevin Shock
I know it's a good day for me and Nathan because we get to spend some time together talking about this next bit of scripture that we've chosen.

00:00:36.03
Nathan Pile
Yahoo!

00:00:37.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Or, well, that we've chosen slash has been chosen for us. ah The passage we're looking at today is from 2 Thessalonians.

00:00:48.87
Kevin Shock
ah Nathan, I know we've talked before about um true Pauline versus pseudo-Pauline. Help me remember is second Thessalonians.

00:00:56.62
Nathan Pile
True. True.

00:00:57.54
Kevin Shock
It's true. Right. So scholars believe that this was actually Paul's hand that wrote this letter, um, or at least that this came directly from Paul.

00:01:09.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:01:09.89
Kevin Shock
Um, and not one of Paul's disciples or a person in the tradition of Paul. So this is Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians chapter three, verses six through 13.

00:01:21.79
Kevin Shock
We are looking at it using the New English Translation or the Net Bible, as always. That is available for you on BibleGateway.com or the Bible Gateway app or follow along in whatever translation you have before you right now.

00:01:39.63
Kevin Shock
ah You can also just listen to us, but you know, you might want to have it there to read a little bit too. ah Three questions that we're using today to engage the text. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

00:01:51.88
Kevin Shock
toward what is God calling you in this text, and how do you stay disciplined?

00:01:58.69
Nathan Pile
Some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households. White. Nathan is close is, is very quickly moving firmly into his middle age here just a few weeks away now.

00:02:11.59
Nathan Pile
um

00:02:11.70
Kevin Shock
No, you're already there. It's just the number's going to switch, that's all.

00:02:18.25
Nathan Pile
College and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

00:02:33.45
Nathan Pile
We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God in one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience as you engage scripture.

00:02:45.97
Nathan Pile
2 Thessalonians verses 6-13. chapter three verses six through thirteen

00:02:56.86
Nathan Pile
But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life, and not according to the tradition they receive from us.

00:03:12.23
Nathan Pile
For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you. And we did not eat anyone's food without paying.

00:03:25.41
Nathan Pile
Instead, In toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. It was not because we do not have the right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate.

00:03:40.76
Nathan Pile
For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command. If any anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat. For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work, but meddling in the work of others.

00:03:58.19
Nathan Pile
Now, such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat. But you, brothers and sisters, do not grow weary in doing what is right.

00:04:15.00
Nathan Pile
If you're a meeting with group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Kevin, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this passage?

00:04:27.82
Kevin Shock
meddling.

00:04:29.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

00:04:31.83
Kevin Shock
I, um

00:04:34.99
Kevin Shock
I, this is a difficult passage for me because I, I even after I looked at the texts and decided that we should tackle this one, I, I read around what's going on in this letter, and it doesn't really make clear what the issue is in Thessalonica.

00:04:55.35
Kevin Shock
Um, And so I, ah, knowing that um the community is, I mean, at least Paul is striving for the community to be a supportive community for people.

00:05:15.07
Kevin Shock
And that um a this, this way of Jesus is a communal experience, a communal way of life. I'm, I'm, I'm a little confused and I probably will remain that unless you um give me some kind of enlightenment throughout this podcast.

00:05:38.56
Kevin Shock
But I'm not, I wasn't laughing at the, but well, no, no, I just, I, I, I wasn't laughing that you can't give me enlightenment.

00:05:40.74
Nathan Pile
That's not likely. That's not likely.

00:05:47.08
Kevin Shock
I was laughing at the at the burden of responsibility I was putting on you. that's um ah But in any case, i um

00:05:59.57
Kevin Shock
I, the this strikes me as being a little, there must be a specific issue going on in Thessalonica because yeah.

00:06:07.19
Nathan Pile
Yes, I agree.

00:06:08.96
Kevin Shock
Okay. All right and You agree with that because this is not like, this strikes me as being a very, and this is no surprise to listeners that I'm going this direction, a very capitalistic sounding kind of passage.

00:06:23.77
Kevin Shock
Like you have to you have to work to earn your pay. or your food in this case. um However, we know that that's not, like, that's not Paul's thrust. Paul's thrust is ah taking care of people in the community, ah of ah living in the way of Jesus. um It's not about, you know, everyone has to make sure that they can get their own food and things like that.

00:06:47.55
Kevin Shock
um So I, ah, meddling sticks out to me because that is that to me is a word that's revelatory of what's going on behind the, like when you read between the lines, what's actually happening here.

00:07:02.71
Kevin Shock
And it sounds to me like there are people who might be getting up in other people's business and causing dissension within the community um by kind of not, you know, getting in the way of the ministry that is to be done.

00:07:17.89
Kevin Shock
um I don't know that to be the case necessarily, but and To me, when I hear you read this, meddling is the word that sticks out. So I don't know what that meddling is, but I also think of like, this is not, I don't know.

00:07:35.61
Kevin Shock
This is not just about like, everyone has to work hard because that's, that's the value ah of the way of Christ. But that's not the value way Christ.

00:07:42.38
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:07:43.27
Kevin Shock
We know that.

00:07:46.35
Kevin Shock
I mean, not that,

00:07:49.98
Kevin Shock
Not that people can sit around and do nothing, but, but everyone, everyone has the, according to Paul, every everyone has the gift that they bring to the community. And there's a responsibility to use that gift, but that gift is not always hard work or, or labor as we might think about it as a way of earning money.

00:08:11.27
Kevin Shock
Am I making sense or am I just talking?

00:08:12.52
Nathan Pile
You are. You are. Here's the question. You were the one that read around a little bit, so I didn't, I haven't done that here.

00:08:14.02
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:08:18.86
Nathan Pile
um In your reading around, um Paul is is talking about Christ's return. Yes? Did you happen upon any of that?

00:08:27.56
Kevin Shock
um Well, now I have to, now I have to go back to...

00:08:32.00
Nathan Pile
Because I'm, I'm wondering if, if the their idleness has to do with that they expect Jesus to return eminently.

00:08:32.07
Kevin Shock
ah

00:08:41.11
Nathan Pile
And so life is pointless.

00:08:41.31
Kevin Shock
Well, so 2 Thessalonians is only three chapters long.

00:08:47.12
Nathan Pile
Correct.

00:08:47.32
Kevin Shock
and And here we have a major chunk of it, um of that third chapter. ah the and The first five chapters ah of that, or the first five verses of that chapter are a request for prayer.

00:08:59.80
Kevin Shock
Paul's asking the people in Thessalonica to pray for them, um and

00:09:00.91
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:09:06.01
Kevin Shock
and for especially for deliverance from people who are not faithful. um but the Lord is faithful. And Paul says, and we are confident about you and the Lord that you're both doing and will do what we are commanding.

00:09:20.45
Kevin Shock
um Now may the Lord direct your hearts toward the love of God and the endurance of Christ. and then the And then after verse 13, yeah, there's there's some there's a little confusing information here because 14 15,

00:09:38.55
Kevin Shock
because fourteen and fifteen But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not closely do not associate closely with him so that he may be ashamed.

00:09:52.35
Kevin Shock
Yet, do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. So there's even more like, ah hold this person close, but not too close, so that they might come to their own senses and realize that they're not living in the way, but want to live in the way.

00:10:12.52
Kevin Shock
And then we have the conclusion of the letter that yeah, just three quick verses. um Yeah. So I don't, I, I, I, yeah, I don't know what all is going on here.

00:10:23.99
Kevin Shock
I just get the, I get the distinct impression that there is, there's some dissension. um

00:10:34.77
Kevin Shock
It sounds like just looking at the chapter or the subject headings in the book, It is about, he does talk about, and talks about encouragement. He gives thanksgiving, talks about encouragement and persecution.

00:10:48.00
Kevin Shock
He does talk about the day of the Lord coming. um And don't, don't be deceived. Don't be shaken. um I think we've maybe heard some of this already in previous weeks in worship.

00:11:06.13
Kevin Shock
Um... There's a call to stand firm. And then we're right into chapter three already. It's a pretty quick book.

00:11:14.47
Nathan Pile
It is. Yeah. I'm just wondering if it's the the the part of the, that we that we have a ah group of the population. Again, one of Paul's pieces is that um Christ is coming and Paul believes that it's going to happen in Paul's time.

00:11:40.11
Kevin Shock
but Yes, right.

00:11:41.36
Nathan Pile
The second coming of Christ is coming.

00:11:41.19
Kevin Shock
That's correct.

00:11:43.28
Nathan Pile
And Paul is, as he writes, Paul very much and, and preaches, I would imagine, in front of people, is that this is happened this is going to happen now.

00:11:49.23
Kevin Shock
and

00:11:53.98
Nathan Pile
Like it's going to happen in our lifetime.

00:11:54.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:11:56.11
Nathan Pile
And so there's, there's a wondering for me of, is Paul in this, like has people have people in Thessalonica heard this message and decided Well, life's kind of pointless.

00:12:13.99
Nathan Pile
I don't need to do these other Like, I'm, I'm, you know, Paul's told me that I'm a chosen one.

00:12:14.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:12:20.06
Nathan Pile
I've, I've been picked by God. I'm in. And so there's no, yeah. And so so instead they've become kind of these, um we don't do what we're supposed to do, but we stick our nose in what you're doing.

00:12:37.91
Nathan Pile
kind of people as is my, like, as I was listening to you kind of, and, and, and again, that goes off of some of my memory.

00:12:38.72
Kevin Shock
you know

00:12:46.25
Nathan Pile
I would have to read this whole book to make sure that that's what I think is really going on. But just from your, I did grab a book off the shelf and just kind of looked at the, the bold sections of this chapter.

00:13:00.03
Nathan Pile
And, and I think that he does talk about Christ coming.

00:13:00.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:13:03.38
Nathan Pile
He does, talk about salvation um and lawlessness of man. So there's a sense to me that that might be a part of what's here in this text.

00:13:17.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, I don't

00:13:19.30
Nathan Pile
That the idleness isn't just about not wanting to work hard. It's about I'm already in and god I'm already in with God um and and Christ is going to come back.

00:13:24.77
Kevin Shock
know.

00:13:33.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:13:33.82
Nathan Pile
And so

00:13:34.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And, and there's a sense in this reading that there's, I mean, the whole, like he mentions food a couple of times.

00:13:40.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yep. Yep.

00:13:41.16
Kevin Shock
There's this, there's a sense here that this isn't, um, there's not, um, you know, so, so each should save for their own retirement. That's not the sense.

00:13:52.21
Nathan Pile
No.

00:13:52.21
Kevin Shock
It's, it's almost a sense of having heard what you said, there may be a sense of keep taking care of your bodily needs.

00:13:59.55
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

00:13:59.92
Kevin Shock
Like, like, don't, don't just quit eating because you think Jesus is going to show up tomorrow.

00:14:04.95
Nathan Pile
or showing up at your neighbor's house because you didn't go.

00:14:07.96
Kevin Shock
sort Right.

00:14:09.00
Nathan Pile
get enough wage for the day to get money to buy food for your family.

00:14:08.72
Kevin Shock
right yeah

00:14:12.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:14:13.84
Nathan Pile
Don't just be like, yeah, we're hungry. We're just going to come over to your place.

00:14:15.78
Kevin Shock
Well, well, right.

00:14:17.50
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:14:17.82
Kevin Shock
and And there's, there's the problem. and i i don't know if it's the problem in Thessalonica, but it, but it is, it's a problem is that if someone

00:14:29.89
Kevin Shock
someone I don't want to, ah, want to be careful with the language I use. If someone does not engage in the community because they think Jesus has shown up tomorrow, and then the end of the day comes, and like you said, they're hungry, and so they just go to their neighbor and say, hey, can I have something to eat?

00:14:49.11
Kevin Shock
Because there is an obligation, in both culturally and also in the way of Jesus, that if someone hungry shows up to your house, you feed them.

00:14:57.35
Nathan Pile
To feed. Yep. Yep.

00:14:59.94
Kevin Shock
But, but Paul, Paul seems to be saying here, don't make don't make yourself hungry because you're misguided about, you know, when Jesus is coming or

00:15:11.98
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:15:12.09
Kevin Shock
yeah or because you're just hanging around.

00:15:14.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I don't think this is, is our common, I don't think this is today's common thing of of, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That's not what this is.

00:15:22.79
Kevin Shock
I don't think this is it. No, I don't think this is it either.

00:15:24.67
Nathan Pile
That's not what this is.

00:15:25.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:15:26.06
Nathan Pile
um ah Just to give ourselves some context here.

00:15:26.91
Kevin Shock
Great.

00:15:29.83
Nathan Pile
So like if we're hearing people kind of say, hey, you really got to work hard for what you what you're, like like like that's not, yes, we have to work hard, but that's not what this is.

00:15:41.27
Kevin Shock
That's not what Paul's talking about here.

00:15:42.29
Nathan Pile
supporting this is, this is becoming essentially a pariah on the community when when you could um when when you could could or maybe a parasite might be better thing you're sucking life out of other people um because you're just like don't want you know the end is coming and, and I'm gonna be in it and so I don't really feel like doing

00:15:58.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:16:09.84
Nathan Pile
um doing the things that I need to do to live in right relationship with the community and with God at this point.

00:16:10.45
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:16:14.56
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:16:17.34
Nathan Pile
um

00:16:17.47
Kevin Shock
Right. I, I looked um in the footnotes here of NET, as you know, Nathan, lots of footnotes.

00:16:23.57
Nathan Pile
Oh, there's lots of footnotes. Yeah, there's lots of footnotes.

00:16:26.41
Kevin Shock
um I knew that I had read it somewhere and it's in the footnote. It's on the text. The footnote for this, right around this part where I'm looking at it, meddling, um says that there's a play on words in the Greek.

00:16:40.41
Kevin Shock
And it has two things in quotation marks. It could be translated as working at nothing, but working around. And the other one I think makes even more context or more sense in our modern context, not keeping busy, but being busy bodies.

00:16:58.63
Kevin Shock
And I think that's the, ah to me, that's the,

00:17:02.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I would say that that, yeah.

00:17:04.82
Kevin Shock
you're you're not, you're not engaging with the community until it serves your purpose. And yeah, I don't know. That's, that's the sense that I get anyway.

00:17:15.10
Kevin Shock
Um, and, and you're causing an undue, an undue burden, not that burdens are common in the community, but, but an undue burden, like becoming a burden to someone else when you don't need to be, and that's, that's the problematic thing.

00:17:28.76
Nathan Pile
Right, right.

00:17:31.29
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:17:31.65
Nathan Pile
We are called to serve those who need served. But if we if we unburden ourselves just to and in in in that you know in an effort of being lazy or whatever and become a burden on the community, then that's, that's not what the way of Christ about.

00:17:37.72
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

00:17:54.20
Nathan Pile
the way of christ is about

00:17:56.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Nathan? What word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

00:18:02.80
Nathan Pile
um Now I have to go back and remember what I...

00:18:12.88
Nathan Pile
Oh, instead in toil and drudgery we worked. um Whatever verse that is, eight.

00:18:21.55
Kevin Shock
Eight. Yep.

00:18:22.95
Nathan Pile
So there's, again... um

00:18:25.55
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:18:26.73
Nathan Pile
the interesting thing about Paul for those that maybe people remember this or know this from their Sunday school study time, or maybe a pastor teaching that, um, but Paul was, uh, by vocational, we might say,

00:18:40.99
Nathan Pile
um he he Yes, he was a preacher and proclaimer. He was a Pharisee originally. um Becomes a disciple, apostle of, of Jesus and, and travels around to proclaim the good news, to proclaim the gospel.

00:18:59.89
Nathan Pile
um But Paul also had skills in and sail making, tent making. um And so...

00:19:11.47
Nathan Pile
there's this piece here that kind of sticks out to me that, um, you know, kind of got my head thinking about, you know, envisioning him coming into town and finding, um a place to kind of set up and, and repair, um, tents or repair, depending on where he's at. If he's close to the coast, it would be maybe boat sails.

00:19:33.64
Nathan Pile
If he's more inland, um, he would, be repairing ah tent or something like that. Thessalonica, I don't even know that for certain, but I'm pretty sure it's on the coast.

00:19:47.13
Nathan Pile
um And so this would be, you know, that he would come into town and and be able to make some make some living um from doing the work in the in the community while he's there.

00:20:02.51
Nathan Pile
and and And probably stay for some time, not just in for a day or two and and then back out, but would come and and stay with the community for some amount of time. And so he's specifically taking something that he knows that he's done while he's been in their presence and trying to use it as a teachable moment about how he doesn't He doesn't come in and and and it just exist off of everybody else's work.

00:20:33.95
Nathan Pile
He too would work when he came. So i that was where my head, the, the, it was the words in toil and drudgery.

00:20:46.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's in it. Paul, Paul can be overdramatic at times it feels like. um good But I'm glad you pointed back to that. I'm glad you pointed back to that verse because that's, I think that that verse gives a little bit of clue into what we were talking about.

00:21:01.93
Nathan Pile
yeah.

00:21:01.66
Kevin Shock
um we We worked night and day in order not to be a burden, not to burden any of you.

00:21:05.50
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:21:07.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:21:09.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:21:08.96
Kevin Shock
They did what was within their ability so that they could contribute to the but needs of the community.

00:21:15.92
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:21:15.97
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah. And not just come in and leech off the community, so to speak.

00:21:22.62
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:21:22.67
Kevin Shock
That's, I don't like that terminology either.

00:21:23.31
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:21:24.42
Kevin Shock
But that's what came out of my mouth.

00:21:26.60
Nathan Pile
Well, and and and then, of course, in my head, i you know, I spiraled into, you know, was this, again, I don't know my Pauline history well enough to know which cities he went to first and then second.

00:21:44.19
Nathan Pile
you know so you know, like what, what was the, like, was this a progression that he learned over time in his travels that he needed to do that?

00:21:44.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:21:52.54
Nathan Pile
Or was it more when he first got to Thessalonica on the early end of things? And so he needed, because, because the communities weren't well formed yet, um, he needed to work.

00:22:05.47
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:22:06.59
Nathan Pile
And now he's just using, using that image as a part of, of teaching here. um

00:22:13.97
Kevin Shock
I um

00:22:14.65
Nathan Pile
I don't know that. And so.

00:22:16.67
Kevin Shock
I know I have that information in a study Bible that's in the next room. um So at some point in some point, when you're talking about something, I may run over there and grab it.

00:22:28.02
Kevin Shock
no

00:22:28.51
Nathan Pile
Well, I have a map here.

00:22:29.22
Kevin Shock
and

00:22:29.67
Nathan Pile
I can, I can look it up and tell me that it'll tell me here if I look.

00:22:31.79
Kevin Shock
yeah Well, I know, what NRSV study Bible do you have? Do you have Oxford annotated or do you have HarperCollins?

00:22:39.49
Nathan Pile
Yes. Yes. I have Oxford.

00:22:40.79
Kevin Shock
Oxford annotated?

00:22:41.74
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

00:22:42.66
Kevin Shock
There's ah there is a map in there that shows um Paul's journeys and lists them as the first, second, and third journey.

00:22:51.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:22:54.00
Kevin Shock
So that would probably answer both questions for you.

00:22:58.40
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:22:58.37
Kevin Shock
Where Thessalonica is located and... when he was there approximately or at what stage in his ministry he was there.

00:23:09.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So there's three trips, then to Rome, and then a fourth trip, which goes to Spain, um, are all of Paul's trips. Um, Thessalonica, he's definitely there on his second trip.

00:23:24.02
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:23:25.10
Nathan Pile
And he stops again for his third trip.

00:23:30.39
Kevin Shock
What, um,

00:23:31.22
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:23:31.91
Kevin Shock
Oh, well, and if this is a second letter to Thessalonica, this, this may be after his third trip.

00:23:39.34
Nathan Pile
Right, right, yeah. Like this could be...

00:23:40.91
Kevin Shock
I don't know when. It probably tells you at the be at the intro to this book in that Bible when it was written, or when we think it was written, versus when he was there.

00:23:50.37
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:23:52.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah. um I'm looking here to see...

00:23:57.22
Kevin Shock
Well, you can you can look on a couple of those things while I read it a second time.

00:24:01.67
Nathan Pile
All right, why don't we do that?

00:24:03.16
Kevin Shock
Okay, all right. So again, from 2 Thessalonians chapter 3. But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life and not according to the tradition they receive from us.

00:24:19.55
Kevin Shock
For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you, and we did not eat anyone's food without paying.

00:24:27.51
Kevin Shock
Instead, in toil and drudgery, we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate.

00:24:39.26
Kevin Shock
For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command, if any anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat. For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work, but meddling in the work of others.

00:24:53.13
Kevin Shock
Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly, and so provide their own food to eat. But you, brothers and sisters, do not grow weary in doing what is right.

00:25:05.39
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:25:11.16
Nathan Pile
I, I think living in, um again, the the phrase would probably right living, right relationship. But within the community,

00:25:24.13
Nathan Pile
um

00:25:27.76
Nathan Pile
when we're when we're on the way, living in the community, there are

00:25:38.31
Nathan Pile
me um

00:25:46.07
Nathan Pile
the the journey that is, is relationships about the people that you're connected with, whatever your community is where for here, for Paul, Thessalonica, but, um, to be able to live in community in such a way that we're, that we're benefiting each other.

00:26:05.90
Nathan Pile
um and, and, and not, you know, not pulling at the, the strengths of the community, not pulling and not the, not the strengths, not pulling at the fabric of our community and making it harder to be connected to each other.

00:26:22.43
Nathan Pile
You know, we as human beings get, ah get are easily um

00:26:29.11
Nathan Pile
the, I shouldn't say all human beings. I'll say for Nathan, for Nathan, when he's in a community, it's real easy for him to say, well, it's unfair that, that I do all the work and you don't do,

00:26:42.35
Nathan Pile
any of the work um of of keeping this community together.

00:26:44.67
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:26:47.13
Nathan Pile
And so um like those those kinds of things crop up to us when we live in community long enough um and and and regularly enough and passionately enough.

00:26:59.83
Nathan Pile
And so how do we

00:27:04.21
Nathan Pile
how do I, as I'm, as I'm, you know, he calls it the disciplined life, I think is the phrase that he uses. Yeah.

00:27:13.48
Nathan Pile
and And the tradition that they've handed on is, again, the way that he kind of uses this phrasing. um but But as we're living as community, how do we

00:27:26.79
Nathan Pile
um How does our actions within the community not become obstacles or barriers for others who are also striving to live in the community?

00:27:35.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:37.96
Nathan Pile
And so...

00:27:38.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:27:39.21
Nathan Pile
um And that can be really...

00:27:43.59
Nathan Pile
that can get really exhausting. ah for ah For instance, for me, of this, that I experience right now,

00:27:46.74
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:27:54.47
Nathan Pile
um and this is, you know, just me being a little vulnerable here, so, um is one of the pieces that that we, in Lutheran Outdoor Ministries, so that's ah Sequanota is a separate camp, and then there's a network of other camp directors that are Lutheran that I connect with and and do work with and and help advocate for for outdoor ministries.

00:28:17.15
Nathan Pile
um This group of people, we've we've decided the last couple of years to work on our inclusion and diversity and um and so we've gone out and gotten some big outside grants to help us do some training to help us see that in our in our own way our by our own bias um and how that gets in the way and so we've been striving to be more inclusive um And one of the pieces of that, that we talk about a lot is that we talk against, when we're talking with big, broad brushstrokes, we talk about um ah essentially talking against the the patriarchy or specifically white male patriarchy.

00:29:04.76
Nathan Pile
um And so after a while, like, and so we've been doing this for years, um six years, and we're applying for a third grant, right? And and trying to,

00:29:15.72
Nathan Pile
um And so, but recognizing that I can be racist, like when I'm doing my own work, you know, I'm a part of that. But every now and then it crops up that I'm just finally, like, I'm just like, I'm, I'm just tired of talking about white male.

00:29:31.72
Nathan Pile
Like I'm striving to be better myself in, in that process, um. But again, it might be that my own under my own undisciplined side just gets you know fed up at times and it's like, do we have to keep talking about this?

00:29:48.28
Nathan Pile
And the answer is yes. Yes, we need to keep talking about it um because we're not yet, we haven't yet gotten to a place where our community is fully inclusive of all, of, of, of gender, of race, of um of physical ability.

00:30:04.22
Nathan Pile
Like there's there's things that, that,

00:30:08.84
Nathan Pile
we haven't done well enough yet so that others also feel like they are a part the, our community. And so, um and so as I read read this passage, I guess that sparks in my own head, my own feelings of, of like, Oh, can't we just be done with this for a little bit?

00:30:27.50
Nathan Pile
um Because of my own, because, because it's hard work to work on Nathan's biases.

00:30:38.72
Nathan Pile
um

00:30:41.28
Nathan Pile
And so, yeah, it'd be nice to just, let's just put this down for a little bit and then we can come back to it. but But there's lots of people in the community that are are are feeling burdened by a white male patriarchy um and and the structures that have been created because of that.

00:30:56.15
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:31:00.16
Nathan Pile
And so tearing those down takes many, many, many, many years of work and six or nine aren't going to be enough to do it. Um, it has to be, we have to be intentional and we have to keep working at it.

00:31:11.93
Nathan Pile
Um, so there's a part of this that, that, you know, again, Paul and I aren't using the same exact examples, but I do think it's about how do we strive to live into better community?

00:31:24.79
Nathan Pile
Um, and And so that's what strikes me about this, and and and that we're called to live into a more fuller, just community as we wait Christ's second coming.

00:31:44.51
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:31:45.68
Nathan Pile
And not just say, like, I can't just say, oh Christ is coming.

00:31:46.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:31:52.35
Nathan Pile
God will take care of it when God comes.

00:31:54.69
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

00:31:56.66
Nathan Pile
you know I think that's part of part of Paul's um belief system is was that it was happening in in Paul's lifetime.

00:31:56.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:32:05.57
Nathan Pile
But I can see other people catching on to Paul's message and saying, well, then I don't need to work on it because God's going to take care of it when he comes back.

00:32:13.65
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:32:14.28
Nathan Pile
Christ's going to take care of it. But that's, that's also not part of the message because Paul would still say, we, we keep traveling. We keep telling the message. Paul doesn't stop going out and proclaiming because Christ is coming and, and God will take care of it when God comes.

00:32:31.71
Kevin Shock
Right, right. that's another um That's another form of meddling or, or, or being, I don't know being a busybody or, what you know, like just leaving it up to God.

00:32:38.36
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:32:41.94
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:32:44.64
Kevin Shock
but not participating in it at all. Well, I appreciate your vulnerability and I and I affirm, I mean, I think it's important work that Lutheran Outdoor Ministries is doing in their in, in your structure.

00:32:58.05
Nathan Pile
oh

00:32:59.21
Kevin Shock
um it It leads into my answer to the second question, and that is something I was thinking about even back at the first question, is that this isn't about individuals providing for themselves.

00:33:02.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:33:10.62
Kevin Shock
This is about the community living together And, and part of what that means is that each in the community is becoming aware of the needs of the other people and, and not just their needs, but also their gifts and their gifts and their abilities.

00:33:30.85
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:33:37.00
Kevin Shock
Um, and then removing barriers or or requiring of them that which they are able to do or or removing barriers so that they are able to do the things that they're being called to do um you know you can't in in our society you can't just say to somebody who you know has a has a physical lives with a physical disability you can't just require them to go and do physical labor that ah that a

00:34:13.25
Kevin Shock
that a person with no kind of disability or barrier can easily do if their own physical being does not permit them to do that.

00:34:24.14
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

00:34:24.64
Kevin Shock
Like that's, you know, I know that I've seen, ah seen kind of pictographs about the difference between ah equality, equity and justice. And I can't, I can't think of exactly how they're delineated at this point, but You know, equality I think equality is, you know, just everyone takes a turn at doing the same tasks.

00:34:48.99
Kevin Shock
Well, if, if someone's physical. Reality does not permit them or allow them to do certain tasks, you can't just ask them to do it without making some kind of and tearing down some kind of barrier or making some kind of way that they can do it.

00:35:07.94
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:35:08.11
Kevin Shock
um I think, did you, did you say Thessalonica is on the shore?

00:35:14.67
Nathan Pile
It is a coast yet.

00:35:15.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So, so, you know, asking someone who doesn't have the use of their legs to, um, you know, and carry the nets out to the boats in the morning and go out and pull in the hall of fish does not make a lot of sense, but can that be the person who sits on the shore and mends the nets? Absolutely.

00:35:33.69
Kevin Shock
ah You know, but so there are,

00:35:34.03
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

00:35:38.58
Kevin Shock
ah We have to be aware of and be honest about but both the gifts and the abilities because, you know, so again, this is all hypothetical.

00:35:50.17
Kevin Shock
the person The person who doesn't have use of their legs, someone in the community might assume, well, they can't really do anything to contribute, but they might be the best net repairer that exists. you You don't know until you give them the opportunity to do that.

00:36:05.44
Kevin Shock
um And I think that that's part of what

00:36:10.79
Kevin Shock
Paul, Paul knows what his gift is and what his ability is, and he comes into communities and he does it. And I think that he's I think that he guides communities to lift up the gifts and abilities of one another.

00:36:17.51
Nathan Pile
Yep.

00:36:25.04
Kevin Shock
Not just the needs, but also the gifts and abilities. We, we hear this kind of language from Paul throughout the letter to the Philippians, too.

00:36:34.01
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:36:33.92
Kevin Shock
um About being hyper-aware of the situation of the people who are around you.

00:36:40.90
Kevin Shock
And, and using that awareness to build up the community and to, and to live better as the community.

00:36:52.36
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah, so it, no, it is, it is.

00:36:54.86
Nathan Pile
Well, and that's a common theme with all of his letters. Like if you look at the letters to Corinth, you know, he's constantly trying to help the communities live into being better communities.

00:36:58.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:06.12
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So this isn't just like, you know, get your own food, figure it out for yourself. This is um use your gifts and abilities as the community is calling you to.

00:37:13.14
Nathan Pile
All right.

00:37:18.50
Kevin Shock
And, and if you're not willing to do that, well, well, then that's a problem.

00:37:24.13
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:37:24.09
Kevin Shock
That's a problem. Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:26.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:26.79
Kevin Shock
But I think, you know, in our in our um in our cultural and political climate, Boy, we just we just throw by the wayside any... We don't value hyper-awareness of the gifts and abilities and needs of other people.

00:37:42.22
Kevin Shock
we We really don't. It's all so individualistic. it's about It is about taking care of yourself. and not really making any, I mean, you know, not making any concessions or or at least begrudgingly making concessions for people to have access to areas and work and ah ah amenities and things that they need.

00:37:50.13
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:38:09.20
Kevin Shock
um You know, we we we think of it as a we think of it as an undue burden, I think, a lot of times in our culture to do something to help someone live into their gifts and abilities instead of just doing it.

00:38:25.32
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:38:25.08
Kevin Shock
It makes sense to do it. And, and hearing what you said about how LOM is talking about the patriarchy and other cultural realities that um can exclude people.

00:38:39.72
Kevin Shock
It, it took me right back, Nathan, to thinking about um to when I was in seminary and spent some time in field parishes in two kind of neighboring sections of Philadelphia where I was worshiping with people who were much, much different from me and, um you know, and, and having experiences and getting to know, really getting to know what life was like for um black people who live in North Philadelphia.

00:38:59.97
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

00:39:13.39
Kevin Shock
And ah, I mean, I, gosh, I just learned so much that year. about their reality in in living that really made me realize that I had I had a lot of I had a lot of help that I don't think that people would have looked at it as being help.

00:39:35.44
Kevin Shock
um you know, just like, like the things, the barriers that exist in our society that people don't think about is the, at least in our state um school funding is based on the real estate value ah

00:39:51.77
Kevin Shock
of the area. And so, you know, people who live in places where the real estate value is low, which nine times out of 10 has nothing to like, doesn't have anything to do with

00:40:07.14
Kevin Shock
I don't know how to say it. Like, like it's someone, someone other than the people who live there determine what the real estate value is.

00:40:14.74
Nathan Pile
Correct. Yeah.

00:40:15.35
Kevin Shock
And that's the funny, that's, that's the funding then that goes into schools. So you have places where someone decides that real estate value is high. Those schools have a lot more resources than the schools where people decide that real estate value is low.

00:40:26.53
Nathan Pile
Right.

00:40:30.00
Kevin Shock
And I just, just thinking about the kids who were in that congregation, I had, I had amenities and educational opportunities in the public school system that they, that they don't have because, or they didn't have because they didn't have the mind to do it.

00:40:44.74
Kevin Shock
And these are to fund it. And, um, these are all, I mean, you know, these, ah these, these kids in their, in their virtue, in their value, in their, um, uh, in their, uh,

00:41:04.82
Kevin Shock
motivation in their intelligence or in any different than me or any other handful of kids that I grew up with. But they just didn't have the same opportunities because of the way that barriers are built into our society.

00:41:13.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:20.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:20.55
Kevin Shock
And it.

00:41:21.07
Nathan Pile
The economic system. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:22.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And what Paul is saying here is.

00:41:27.52
Kevin Shock
Not just not just work, hey, you individuals work, but it's Pay attention to what's going on with your siblings here in the community and, and, and make it better for them.

00:41:35.37
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:41:38.42
Kevin Shock
Make it so they can work.

00:41:41.74
Nathan Pile
Well, because throughout this, um not just our reading, but if you look at the rest of this letter to Thessalonica, it says brothers and sisters multiple times.

00:41:41.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:41:53.40
Kevin Shock
I'm sure it does. Yeah.

00:41:54.49
Nathan Pile
Multiple times.

00:41:54.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:41:55.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:41:55.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:41:58.91
Kevin Shock
All right. Well, you want to look at it a third time?

00:42:00.99
Nathan Pile
Um, that you had asked, you gave me a homework assignment while you read it.

00:42:03.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I did. yeah actually, yeah, I meant to ask you about that.

00:42:04.80
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and so it looks like there's no, nothing definitive here from my study Bible, uh, other than to say Paul's first trip or his first missionary stuff happens 46 to 48.

00:42:18.29
Nathan Pile
The two trips to Thessalonica, the first one happened somewhere between 49 and 52. And then he starts the second one or the third one. He starts in 53 and goes to 57. So they're thinking that the first Thessalonica is probably written maybe 1951 ish.

00:42:39.51
Nathan Pile
Um, so while, while, so again, this might've been early in their trip might've been early in there that they went to Thessalonica first because there is multiple places that they go on the second missionary trip.

00:42:39.90
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:42:52.91
Nathan Pile
Um, and so, And so it would make, maybe there maybe it's the halfway point or something like that, um is Thessalonica, because they then they work their way back around over the course of these, whatever it is, three years, 49, 50, 51, 52, so four years. um So he writes the letter probably after he had been with them and And writes probably one in 51. He might write the other one, maybe by the end of 51, maybe beginning of 52. So the letter that we're reading ah happens in between his first and second trip to see them.

00:43:34.16
Nathan Pile
Um, Kind of a thing. So I don't know what that that helps us delineate much of anything, but um but it does kind of give us a sense of, again, when they traveled, they traveled for years.

00:43:47.64
Nathan Pile
You know, that goes back to that idea of him having to work wherever he goes, because, again, he probably comes into town and stays for a month. And so that would be burdensome on someone else to have to feed Paul.

00:44:05.82
Nathan Pile
Timothy, Luke, who else? Barnabas, um, Silas, Silas is who I'm forgetting. So it's not just Paul showing up, but that's, it's like four guys, um, showing up. So there would be some responsibility to be able to kind provide for yourself when you're traveling like this.

00:44:26.91
Nathan Pile
Um, and so again, it would be something to be able to teach, uh, use it as a kind of a teaching point.

00:44:28.57
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:44:33.32
Nathan Pile
Um, if they're having some problems within their community of caring, you know, of, of, I can help take care of myself a little bit in the midst of this community.

00:44:45.50
Kevin Shock
Right, right. Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you pointed that out because that presents a completely different picture, I think. imagine and Imagine someone

00:44:58.22
Kevin Shock
someone who travels around to do work or ministry and, you know, instead of, um, well, or even, even, even someone, okay. So lower, lower level kind of thing, because again, people don't travel around anymore like Paul did.

00:45:15.32
Nathan Pile
Correct. Sure.

00:45:16.26
Kevin Shock
Um, or, or if they do, you know, like, like Paul would be a, a paid speaker now in our world today.

00:45:25.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:45:25.68
Kevin Shock
Um, But, okay, so imagine, though, someone,

00:45:31.95
Kevin Shock
yeah a church dignitary, for lack of a better term, comes to visit your congregation, and think of the difference between,

00:45:42.69
Kevin Shock
um yeah Someone who does that and they sit down at the table after the worship service and you know they're constantly asking people, hey, can you give me a cup of coffee?

00:45:53.70
Kevin Shock
Hey, can you give me some more food?

00:45:55.11
Nathan Pile
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:45:55.30
Kevin Shock
hey you know Doing that kind of stuff versus the person who you know is is last in line for the food line and then helps clear the dishes at the end of the...

00:45:57.87
Nathan Pile
but

00:46:06.29
Nathan Pile
right

00:46:06.38
Kevin Shock
at the end of the meal, you have a different feeling about how those people interact and it brings a different atmosphere to the congregation.

00:46:17.47
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:46:17.82
Kevin Shock
You know, someone, someone comes in like and and helps out how they can when they're there. ah That could have good ripple effects going down the line for that community.

00:46:31.41
Kevin Shock
um that this person set an example for them in that in that one day when they were there.

00:46:37.93
Nathan Pile
right

00:46:38.26
Kevin Shock
and And that's exactly what Paul says here is that, you know, we, we did this, not, well how exactly does he say it? I have to go back. We did this. um

00:46:49.55
Kevin Shock
ah Oh, it it was not. Okay. So, so we worked in order not to burden any of you. It was not because we do not have that Right. Paul says, you know, we could have just asked you to serve us.

00:47:00.70
Nathan Pile
We could have just been... We could have just been...

00:47:03.07
Kevin Shock
But to give to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate.

00:47:08.86
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:47:08.72
Kevin Shock
So that that's what that's what ah that's the line that kind of strikes me when I'm thinking about why did Paul act the way he did? And what, both then, what effect does that have on the communities that he has formed and what permission does it give him to ask things of them down the line in the sense here that he's asking people don't just don't just be lazy but you know act like a community work together to do this to do this stuff yeah okay anyway that's the it was it was helpful for me to some things you said help to put that all together so thanks

00:47:33.11
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:47:36.63
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:47:41.17
Nathan Pile
All right.

00:47:52.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah. All right, let's do a third time.

00:47:55.76
Kevin Shock
yep

00:47:58.01
Nathan Pile
But we command you, siblings, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from anyone who lives an undisciplined life.

00:48:10.04
Nathan Pile
and not according to the tradition they receive from us. For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you, and we did not eat anyone's food without paying.

00:48:26.17
Nathan Pile
Instead, in toil and drudgery, we worked night and day in order not to be at any to be a burden any to any of you. yeah It was not because we do not have that right,

00:48:39.43
Nathan Pile
but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate. For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command. If any anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat.

00:48:53.66
Nathan Pile
For we hear that some among you are living in an undisciplined life, not doing their own work, but meddling in the work of others. not no Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat.

00:49:14.34
Nathan Pile
But you, siblings, do not grow weary in doing what is right.

00:49:26.81
Nathan Pile
How do you stay disciplined?

00:49:29.35
Kevin Shock
easy, easy answer for me on this one based on the, based on the conversation that we just had. And, and I'm so glad that we've had this conversation because I think when I was originally thinking this, I was thinking things like prayer and, you know, and keeping a schedule and things like that.

00:49:44.12
Nathan Pile
hmm

00:49:47.06
Kevin Shock
Do you know what keeps me disciplined?

00:49:48.86
Nathan Pile
what yeah

00:49:49.35
Kevin Shock
Being in relationship with other people and remembering that I have I have particular gifts and responsibilities in relationship to other people.

00:50:00.56
Kevin Shock
And so keeping those people in front of me helps me to stay disciplined.

00:50:06.11
Nathan Pile
Yeah

00:50:06.33
Kevin Shock
I had to um yesterday ah

00:50:11.31
Kevin Shock
a a colleague came into, I was, I was in the office in Hollidaysburg, a colleague came in and said, was doing some work in the we kind of have a shared office space in in the one room where I am and ah doing some work, you know, but far down the desk for me. And in fact, I was at the, the round working table in the middle of the room.

00:50:32.03
Kevin Shock
And she said to me, um you know, I can I can go somewhere else if, if I'm bothering you. And I said, to be completely honest with you, I'm getting more work done with you sitting here next to me than I would if I were on my own.

00:50:45.36
Kevin Shock
um Because that's, for some reason, that's how I'm wired. if If someone else is doing work, if if if we're doing not even the same work, but our own work, but in the same space, it keeps me, it helps me to stay focused on what I'm doing.

00:51:02.63
Kevin Shock
and And I told her the story that, you know, like, There will be times in our household when there's a project that I, I need to complete. And, oh, I put it off and I put it off and I put it off and I'm unmotivated.

00:51:15.67
Kevin Shock
And I, and I get, I get, I put it off so much that I get anxious about it. I get i get more focused on putting anxious energy into not doing it than actually just sitting down and do it.

00:51:26.14
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

00:51:28.33
Kevin Shock
Until the thing that really motivates me is that Lisa can say to me, If Lisa says to me, what do I need to do to help you get this done?

00:51:42.15
Kevin Shock
Sometimes that's all she needs to do just is just put herself in front of me and say, not did you get this done yet? But what how can I help you get this done?

00:51:55.43
Kevin Shock
Like, I know it sounds like a subtle difference, but it's a huge, it's the biggest difference in the world to me for some reason. And she can help me out for five, 10 minutes. And that gives me enough momentum to get going to just like slap it right out.

00:52:09.38
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:52:09.30
Kevin Shock
Just get it done. And um so I really do think that being reminded that

00:52:19.08
Kevin Shock
Not just that I have obligations to other people or responsibilities in relationship to others, but also have gifts in those other people. Those other people can help me accomplish what I need to accomplish and not just get in my way. That's what helps keep disciplined. Actually, living more disciplined.

00:52:41.71
Kevin Shock
actually living living more Living less isolated and focused on my tasks and more focused on the people that those tasks might affect helps me to stay more disciplined.

00:52:58.05
Kevin Shock
So what about you, Nathan? What keeps you disciplined?

00:53:01.43
Nathan Pile
um I'm just going to say the same.

00:53:07.80
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:53:09.07
Nathan Pile
No but I'm, I'm, I'm in full agreement with you that this is being in community

00:53:18.65
Nathan Pile
um

00:53:21.38
Nathan Pile
calls me to to, yes, meet my own needs, but also to to be a part of meeting the community's needs. Um, and so living in it living in relationship with others helps hold me accountable to those things that I'm, that I'm called to do.

00:53:44.13
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and sometimes again, as you say, it's nice to, ah for others to kind of say, Hey, why don't we tackle this together? Um, But I also have, uh, my type a personality at times just kicks in to be like, I have to get this done because it's something that's benefits the community and I'm supposed to do this. This is my job to do.

00:54:04.08
Nathan Pile
Um, maybe even sometimes it's not my job and I just take it over. But anyway, we won't get into that part of my, um, my psyche. Um,

00:54:14.03
Kevin Shock
ah Okay.

00:54:15.78
Nathan Pile
but that, that, that idea of being in community together, um And yes, this is about food, but as I think we've successfully um described at this point, this is really about living together in in community and and what that means and looks like. and And obviously at camp, this has special meaning in my in my space and place because it feels very real Because we're always constantly stri- striving to build community here, whether it be in the summer camp season or um in in retreat season, being able to be a place and a space where people can come and feel comfortable

00:55:00.05
Nathan Pile
and um and so that they can do the important pieces of work. of relationship building and growing in trust together. And, but like, you have to have a space in place to do that. And so we strive really hard within our staff, um, values to make sure, you know, we talk about great hospitality a lot.

00:55:22.47
Nathan Pile
Um, And so not that our facility is, you know, anything close to a Marriott, but that it is that it is clean, that it is warm when it's cold, that it is um situated in the natural world that it's at.

00:55:39.49
Nathan Pile
Yes. That the food is good. Yes. Like those kinds of things we try to make sure are a part of our who we are and the place where we are so that people can be focused on the other aspects of building community. are What we bring to the to the to the ministry is the space and and the logistical pieces that help communities then look and face each other and and have the conversations that help grow their community stronger.

00:56:10.14
Nathan Pile
and And we find that to be, again, I find it to be critically important um And as the leader at the camp, preach quite a bit to our year-round staff so that we so that we are making it so that so that community can happen for others.

00:56:27.21
Kevin Shock
Mhm

00:56:28.14
Nathan Pile
And so, yeah.

00:56:35.05
Nathan Pile
Any other thoughts, my friend?

00:56:38.07
Kevin Shock
I honestly don't think so. No.

00:56:42.18
Kevin Shock
That was that was ah three questions that all kind of and ended up being in the same flow of one another.

00:56:42.84
Nathan Pile
Well,

00:56:48.73
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

00:56:49.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:56:50.43
Nathan Pile
No, it was good. And again, our conversation, I think, took me in some ways that I didn't think we would go. So it's good.

00:56:58.33
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah. And, and like, like always, uh, this, you know, this was a, this, this was a problematic text for me. And I, and I'd like to think that, um, I like to think that we mind it and didn't just put our own thoughts and feelings on it.

00:57:16.67
Kevin Shock
Um, but actually dug into it a little bit more and maybe be understood it better.

00:57:17.04
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and...

00:57:23.39
Nathan Pile
Well, I don't necessarily... Like, when I read your question, your third question there today of disciplined life, I don't oftentimes think of myself as living a disciplined life because my first response to the question when I thought about it when I first read it was like, oh, God, this is going to be like, know... I don't know what my answer is going to be because I don't think of like...

00:57:46.78
Nathan Pile
like I don't live ah you know, when I think about disciplined lives, I think about our, our, my grandparents who had to live a more financially disciplined life than what I do.

00:57:58.89
Nathan Pile
Um, I think of my father and, and mother who, who, um, lived at what I would consider to be, they they were a little bit more disciplined than than I have been in my, you you know, adult life living kinds of things. And so,

00:58:19.95
Nathan Pile
but this idea of of a disciplined life in the midst of community makes complete sense to me.

00:58:28.31
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So I just appreciate the conversation today. So

00:58:32.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah, me too.

00:58:35.40
Nathan Pile
we got some additional readings, buddy.

00:58:35.47
Kevin Shock
All right. Yes, we do. ah Some additional texts that you can look at for this week. um Malachi chapter four, verses one to two, a just a short one.

00:58:50.48
Kevin Shock
It's a day of blistering heat for the arrogant and a day of healing sun for the righteous. That honestly, that, that, uh,

00:59:01.37
Kevin Shock
That summary just about says the entirety of the two verses. um some Psalm 98, I guess we should say that we're getting toward the end of the church year here, the liturgical year.

00:59:13.12
Kevin Shock
So ah before we get to Advent, our a lot of our November texts are about kind of end days kind of stuff, which I think is why this text fits into the other texts that are assigned for this Sunday.

00:59:21.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:59:28.25
Kevin Shock
ah Psalm 98, in righteousness will the Lord judge the world. ah Luke chapter 21, verses 5 through 19, Jesus speaks of wars, endurance, betrayal, and suffering for his sake.

00:59:42.54
Kevin Shock
And then we do still have ah the semi-continuous text, the the texts that go through the ah large parts of Hebrew scripture, Isaiah 65 verses 17 through 25, God promises a new heaven and a new earth.

00:59:58.95
Kevin Shock
And then actually the, the psalmody that's assigned for that Isaiah text is another Isaiah text, Isaiah 12 verses two through six in your midst is the Holy one of Israel.

01:00:11.16
Kevin Shock
So as I said, Nathan, talking with you always helps me to pull things together in a new way, and I appreciate that. And we hope that it helps the same for you, friends. And certainly, if you have new thoughts and reflections or old thoughts and reflections on ah anything we discuss, we'd love to hear from you.

01:00:29.83
Kevin Shock
We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:00:33.69
Nathan Pile
And peace.