S4 Episode 10: Isaiah 9:1-4

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What hope has dawned on you?

Additional texts:

Psalm 27:1, 4-9

1 Corinthians 1:10-18

Matthew 4:12-23

Transcript

00:02.36
Nathan Pile
Kevin, I can't think of a better thing to do today than chatting with you about some scripture. Now, I will say that it is rainy and kind of gray outside.

00:18.78
Nathan Pile
So ah there might be there might be better things that could have been done in other locations that have nicer weather.

00:19.84
Kevin Shock
gonna say, there might be some better things somewhere. ah

00:26.94
Nathan Pile
or different days, maybe somebody's listening and it's a beautiful sunny day and they're like, yeah, we could we should we're gonna be outside. Today is not that day for us, um but it is a day still to bring some some light into the world, um ah but it be being through God's word and not not necessarily the physical sun that is in the sky because it is so gray that the sun

00:35.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Today's not that day.

00:52.82
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:56.44
Nathan Pile
you can't even tell where it is. That's how great it's that kind of a great day. So, um, you got the same, you got the same way up there.

01:00.96
Kevin Shock
Yep. It's that way here too. Yeah, except it's kind of, it's dry up here at least.

01:05.75
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:08.41
Kevin Shock
It doesn't look like, I don't know if you have any rain or anything.

01:08.47
Nathan Pile
Oh,

01:11.33
Kevin Shock
and I think the sprinkling that happened is done.

01:11.94
Nathan Pile
yeah.

01:13.77
Kevin Shock
It's warmer up here than it has been, but I don't think that that's supposed to last either.

01:15.98
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:19.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. No, we've, I've been on and off all day. And now I'm yawning because I'm like, oh, I'm just tired of the day, I guess. Maybe. I don't know.

01:27.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. yeah

01:28.25
Nathan Pile
So, ah but today Kevin and I are going to look at Isaiah, the ninth chapter, verses one through four.

01:38.90
Nathan Pile
um And we're going to read it from the Common English Bible, CEB. You can follow along in whatever Bible you have close at hand or You could look it up on Bible Gateway, either on your phone or on a computer.

01:54.07
Nathan Pile
And you could follow along with the Common English Bible. Or I guess technically you could pick any translation and follow along with it um that they have there on Bible Gateway, of which they have very, very many.

02:08.92
Nathan Pile
um

02:09.91
Kevin Shock
Very many.

02:10.65
Nathan Pile
Very many. We're going to discuss it using the three questions, that two of which are, are something that we use every week. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And our third question this week, what hope has dawned on you?

02:31.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, let's talk about that.

02:33.46
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

02:34.26
Kevin Shock
ah Here is some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

02:44.73
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania. All this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

02:56.98
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

03:09.05
Kevin Shock
As Nathan said, we're reading from Isaiah chapter 9, verses 1 through 4. And as we are in the season after Epiphany, this is one of those great Isaiah texts that talks about light.

03:26.94
Kevin Shock
Nonetheless, those who were in distress won't be exhausted. At an earlier time, God cursed the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but later he glorified the way of the sea, the far side of the Jordan, and the Galilee of the nations.

03:42.33
Kevin Shock
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light. On those living in a pitch-dark land, light has dawned. You have made the nation great. You have increased its joy.

03:53.40
Kevin Shock
They rejoiced before you as with joy at the harvest, as those who divide plunder rejoice. As on the day of Midian, you've shattered the yoke that burdened them, the staff on their shoulders, and the rod of their oppressors.

04:08.31
Kevin Shock
If you are meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and ask the questions of one another. Nathan, what a word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

04:22.23
Nathan Pile
um Well, the as you were reading it, the second verse there, the one that gets quoted in the New Testament, was the one that kind of stuck out to me. The people walking in darkness have seen a great light.

04:34.62
Nathan Pile
um And thankfully, this translation provides us where it's located.

04:45.88
Nathan Pile
So I know that it's from Hebrews. I would not have been able to...

04:50.45
Kevin Shock
a

04:50.77
Nathan Pile
to earmark that as Hebrews chapter nine, verse one, without the little aid of assistance that they provide here. But as you were reading it, that was what struck me.

05:00.97
Nathan Pile
I was like, oh, this is, we quote this often in the in the New Testament. And so then I, of course, huh?

05:08.47
Kevin Shock
ah yeah Wait a second, though. I don't think that that's what that note means.

05:13.17
Nathan Pile
What's that note mean?

05:15.10
Kevin Shock
I think that that means... that like footnote A, it says Isaiah 9.1. I think it means that in the Hebrew text, that verse is listed as chapter 8, verse 23.

05:28.74
Nathan Pile
Oh, there it is.

05:31.83
Kevin Shock
I, I thought the same thing that you were thinking. I think this is to indicate that there are, there's a shift of how the verses are delineated in the Hebrew text.

05:41.30
Nathan Pile
Yes, you're right. That's exactly what this is. I thought I just assumed it was in Hebrews because of the, the, the footnote, but you have to actually click on the footnote to get a better footnote.

05:48.50
Kevin Shock
that would be that would That would be really helpful, though, the kind of footnote that you talk about, would like a cross-reference.

05:51.42
Nathan Pile
I see. um

05:56.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, that would be great.

05:58.70
Kevin Shock
A lot of times when we read those in the New Testament, it does tell us where it comes from in Hebrew scripture, yeah.

06:06.30
Nathan Pile
In the Old Testament. Yeah.

06:08.92
Kevin Shock
but um But it rarely tells us where it's referenced.

06:09.37
Nathan Pile
Well, and this would come in John too. John talks about light. And so my guess is this also shows up in John.

06:14.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

06:15.42
Nathan Pile
um Because that was my other thought. My first guess was actually John. um, the um, with, With this this line.

06:20.72
Kevin Shock
Well, you're probably right with that guess.

06:25.30
Nathan Pile
um Well, thank you for clarifying that for me. So so this is just ah a number a footnote about a number, that this numbering would be different in the Hebrew text.

06:38.77
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

06:39.32
Nathan Pile
This would not be nine, chapter 9, verse 2. It would be chapter 8, verse 23. No,

06:48.39
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

06:52.76
Nathan Pile
it would it would be chapter... 9 verse 1, not verse 2.

06:57.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, nine, nine two is 9:1 in the Hebrew.

06:59.34
Nathan Pile
That's what it is. Right.

07:00.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. I think all that this means is that the um the introductory verse that we read here in the Hebrew text is in chapter 8 instead of chapter 9, essentially.

07:10.12
Nathan Pile
Right, yeah. But do you think this is a hymn? do you, Do you happen to know off the top of your head? I do not recall. But this is indented in such a way that it feels like it was inserted as something that might have been a common phrase or reading.

07:31.58
Kevin Shock
This is, yeah, there are definitely um parts of Isaiah that are ah formatted to look like prose. And there are parts that are formatted to look like verse or poetry.

07:46.84
Kevin Shock
And yeah, and so, right, right. Verses two, three, and four here are formatted to look like poetry. I'm not sure in, in the book of Isaiah necessarily what the difference in formatting means, but it makes me, it does make me wonder if this is text that people would have been familiar with. Oh ah yeah. Or yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of um poetry formatted text in Isaiah. Yeah.

08:21.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

08:22.39
Kevin Shock
And yeah, I'm not sure exactly why, but obviously.

08:22.49
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

08:26.04
Nathan Pile
Well, if you're, if you're really looking to dig deep, this would be an area that you could dig into a little bit. If you really wanted to dig into the Isaiah, like I, I, the, the formatting isn't so much the thing that sticks out. The phrase was the thing that stuck out to me.

08:39.67
Nathan Pile
Um, but I do think that, that I appreciate your, um, you're sharing your knowledge of that. Isaiah does insert, um,

08:51.99
Nathan Pile
po poetry, you know, hymnody, whatever it might be, what seems to be text into the stuff that he's writing, his prose.

09:04.34
Nathan Pile
um And so that maybe people of that time were familiar with it. Maybe they weren't, and he was trying to highlight something. So maybe it became more familiar to them.

09:14.92
Nathan Pile
you know And all of that, I don't, you know, that' that's the part like if you had a good commentary on Isaiah, it would dig into that for you.

09:15.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

09:23.64
Nathan Pile
um But, but that just for people that are listening, if you're, if you're really interested in Isaiah, a good, a good commentary would help you flesh these kinds of things out because there's some great history again in Isaiah that's, that's being shared. It's not just Isaiah sitting down and writing everything that happened.

09:46.94
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah

09:47.66
Nathan Pile
He's pulling, there is places where he's pulling this poetry in and and applying it to the part of the the the story of Israel, which is, and and so whatever he's inserting, it's it either has been a part of ah Israel, the life of Israel and its story, or he feels like it fits well with Israel.

10:11.51
Nathan Pile
the story of Israel and so has added it for specific reasons to kind of build build his narrative.

10:19.00
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really weird. As I look at this whole chapter, like the last sentence of verse 7, which is a pretty long verse, is formatted differently than the rest of verse 7.

10:31.38
Kevin Shock
And then right in verse 8, it goes back into like looking like poetry instead of prose.

10:31.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

10:36.12
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

10:37.34
Kevin Shock
um I don't know if this is a way that the text... um

10:48.95
Kevin Shock
that that the text, like, it's all prophecy, at least that's how I think of it. But I wonder if there's, the if like they the Hebrew understanding is that there's a different way that prophecy is formatted.

10:55.35
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

11:03.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I don't know. If you look at verse, I, you know, I wondered if there was something um that preceded this that said like, thus the word of the Lord came to Isaiah and and then those words were written formatted like poetry because it was it it was a way to delineate between God's words and um and Isaiah's words but no, if you look at the previous chapter at chapter eight the formatting's all over the place there some of its prose some of its poetry

11:21.17
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

11:39.22
Kevin Shock
um And in chapter eight, verse five, chapter eight, verse five is the Lord spoke again to me. And then chapter six starts with what the Lord said, but it's formatted like prose. And then in verse nine, it's formatted like poetry.

11:57.46
Kevin Shock
I don't, I don't know what the difference is necessarily. this, This would be, yeah, you could really take a deep dive with this. And, and this is the kind of thing that like, unfortunately, you might get some, I don't know it.

12:11.39
Kevin Shock
I don't, I don't have a copy of it nearby. You might get some answers from the Lutheran Study Bible, but I don't know that they don't often, Lutheran Study Bible often talks about content, not, not the ah the text itself or, or the

12:26.21
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

12:28.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

12:31.10
Kevin Shock
I guess it talks more about syntax than semantics or I'm not sure. I don't know. i I'm probably not even thinking of those words correctly. It's been a long time since junior high school when I learned what that meant.

12:42.07
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

12:43.11
Kevin Shock
um

12:46.07
Kevin Shock
But I think if you have like the Oxford annotated study Bible, That might talk about it like in the introduction to Isaiah or like the CEB study Bible that might talk about it too.

12:59.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's just not something that Nathan nor I have right in front of us to figure out why this formatting is different.

13:03.91
Nathan Pile
How

13:08.82
Nathan Pile
about you, my friend? What word phrase image struck you?

13:12.12
Kevin Shock
I am it is, it definitely the, sorry I'm getting back to the, I was looking at different chapters. Okay. um it ah It was written in the first sentence. I'll be honest with you. I think, you know, we talk about um the the, the word that people overuse and maybe because it's overused, it's misused is busy.

13:39.64
Kevin Shock
But another similar word even in my own household is exhausted. Like that's, that's the word that Lisa and I use whenever we're just talking about how we're, so we're so tired and we don't have the energy to do anything. um and we both say it it, it will, you know, the common, ah the common conversation in our household is, Hey, do you feel like doing such and such?

14:07.95
Kevin Shock
I, I'm exhausted.

14:11.51
Kevin Shock
And like, it's, you know, it's a fair um it's a fair assumption, but then I, um, there are times i know that I have told Lisa I'm exhausted and then something else pops up that I have to attend to. And then I'm like, oh, I wasn't exhausted before. Now I am exhausted.

14:28.54
Kevin Shock
When you think about what the word actually means, um, that, that your, your, your, your stores of energy are completely spent.

14:31.11
Nathan Pile
right.

14:38.14
Kevin Shock
Um, And ah Lisa got me a ah new smartwatch for Christmas. um

14:47.67
Nathan Pile
Ooh. Hmm.

14:48.34
Kevin Shock
And yeah, it's, it's nice. At first, it was it like so many things. It was different than what I had used before, so I hated it um And then after two days of actually living with it, I like it a lot better. um it's not It's not completely state-of-the-art.

15:03.27
Kevin Shock
I've only had two smartwatches in my lifetime, and I've always bought or or received the I like Garmin's um and I've always received like not the newest model, but the the last newest model.

15:18.39
Kevin Shock
Because, you know, because it's like $200 cheaper if you buy the last newest model that still has good technology on it.

15:22.08
Nathan Pile
Sure, sure.

15:24.99
Kevin Shock
Anyway, um this one has a, a feature on it called the, what's it called? The body, the body battery.

15:32.61
Nathan Pile
Battery, yep, yep.

15:33.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And, um, and I, I'm, I'm intrigued by that function because, uh, it will, you know, it will tell me that like your sleep didn't recharge you enough last night.

15:45.50
Kevin Shock
And, and it will say things like, maybe you should get up and stretch a little bit and get your, get your blood flowing a little bit. It doesn't say that, but essentially that's what it means. And, uh,

15:55.64
Nathan Pile
Right.

15:57.14
Kevin Shock
And I think I think about the body battery whenever I think about being exhausted.

16:01.84
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

16:02.39
Kevin Shock
The other day I got the body battery down to like down to like four, I think before it was the end of the day. And I thought that's, that's pretty close to exhausted, probably.

16:08.18
Nathan Pile
Well.

16:11.73
Kevin Shock
Although I didn't really feel well, maybe I did. I don't know. It's interesting. That's the other thing is that ah there's, there's always perception versus reality. You can feel like you're exhausted without actually being exhausted.

16:21.91
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Sure.

16:24.70
Kevin Shock
And maybe you're maybe you're tired and annoyed and you interpret that as exhausted, but not really exhaust but you're not actually exhausted. I don't know.

16:34.99
Nathan Pile
Right. Well, I would think that like exhausted on vacation and exhausted after a day of work might be two different feelings of exhaustion.

16:35.80
Kevin Shock
Anyway.

16:41.80
Kevin Shock
are two different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:43.19
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

16:45.82
Kevin Shock
um

16:46.78
Nathan Pile
Not that that day was, was a day vacation. I'm just, you know, just thinking about the idea of exhausted. It could, when, when you put it into context, I think it could feel different.

16:56.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. But the context here is that there are people who were in distress um and, and they're assured that though they were in distress, they will not be exhausted.

17:12.60
Kevin Shock
there Their energy will not be entirely spent. um Because something something good is on the horizon for them.

17:20.90
Kevin Shock
Something is dawning for them that is They will recharge their, their maybe their spiritual batteries, maybe their body batteries, maybe their cultural batteries or national batteries or batteries of faith. I don't know. what um well How many other ways can I use the word battery?

17:41.66
Nathan Pile
I don't know.

17:42.01
Kevin Shock
um I think I'll stop there.

17:45.35
Nathan Pile
OK.

17:46.49
Kevin Shock
But yeah, ah they won't be exhausted. And, and that's, that's good news.

17:53.21
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

17:53.37
Kevin Shock
for, For people who talk a lot about being exhausted, not being exhausted is good news.

17:59.74
Nathan Pile
Well, it does' it does, as you were talking about, it does strike me that we do talk about, and and maybe every generation has talked that way, has talked always about being tired.

18:11.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, maybe.

18:11.93
Nathan Pile
I guess it, it gets, it makes, it makes me sad if we as human beings have for generations, life is about constantly wearing down our battery.

18:16.02
Kevin Shock
Well...

18:23.93
Nathan Pile
Like if that's, again, I don't think that's what God intends life to be, but if that's what our sense of our lives is,

18:25.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:28.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah, no,

18:34.33
Nathan Pile
kind of makes me sad.

18:37.91
Kevin Shock
I do wonder, I wonder if it's always been that way. um I wonder if this is a feature of, well, I mean, I guess obviously, that well, right, obviously the people for whom this was written were feeling like they were exhausted.

18:55.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

18:55.67
Kevin Shock
Um, that was,

19:00.60
Kevin Shock
uh, but that, that was because there was distress. There was something bad going on in the land. And I think that that, I think that that applies in part to us today.

19:12.41
Kevin Shock
um I don't think the things that, um, that Judah, we did determine recently that Isaiah was written to the Southern kingdom, right? Judah.

19:25.88
Nathan Pile
Yes, I, I do believe we talked about that.

19:25.92
Kevin Shock
I can't recall. Okay. Well, the the people, the nation to whom this is written, ah whether it's Judah or Israel, um they ah and there were things going on there that were making them feel like they were exhausted.

19:43.13
Kevin Shock
I, The thing that I notice is that, at least in our household, and I think it's true for other people too, as I observe them, um everyday life can exhaust us now.

19:58.55
Kevin Shock
And I don't think that that's God's intention. um I mean, I don't think it's God's intention for us to be exhausted ever, but, but we can understand how a nation living in distress is exhausted.

20:12.26
Nathan Pile
Sure.

20:12.44
Kevin Shock
um if, If we're getting exhausted because of the demands of everyday life, That's a commentary on how we have structured or allowed life to be structured for us.

20:18.70
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:27.96
Kevin Shock
And yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've, I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot today. I said to someone in a meeting this morning that I feel, i guess I feel comfortable saying this on this podcast. I feel like we kind of have our particular audience that as a, as a religious leader, I consider myself to be pretty anti-capitalist.

20:52.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:52.98
Kevin Shock
Um, not, you know, I like, I have my own political, ah political views that as a person, i I feel, but I don't necessarily voice all the time. um or at least not it not broadly, but as a religious leader, the reason I say I'm anti-capitalist is because I like to think that at the forefront of my ministry or my vision for ministry is that we don't take great care in numbers or looking for particular

21:36.42
Kevin Shock
quantitative results we are, we prioritize caring for one another and building relationships and seeking the divine, which are not quantitative things.

21:53.05
Kevin Shock
So if, if you don't, if you don't, if someone doesn't want me to say anti-capitalist, I'll say anti-quantitative. Um, yeah.

22:01.08
Nathan Pile
Antiquantitative.

22:03.97
Kevin Shock
Uh,

22:06.52
Kevin Shock
Because quality is what matters in ministry, not quantity. um Quantity makes us feel good. Quantity can make us feel like we're less exhausted. And certainly if we have more human and financial resources, things feel like they're lot easier.

22:24.41
Kevin Shock
um But that's not our goal is creating more of those things. Our goal is caring for the people. who are before us and who need the care that we can, that we, that God can deliver through us.

22:39.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

22:44.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And well, yeah, I have, I have lots of thoughts on this, but we don't, we can go on and talk about other things too.

22:44.79
Nathan Pile
um

22:50.61
Kevin Shock
What were going to say?

22:51.61
Nathan Pile
No, I, I was, all of this has been you know just kind of stewing in my head here as you've been talking of, of,

23:03.93
Nathan Pile
there was a phrase that caught my ear. um, as you were talking about us and living in a living in ah in our society, living in our culture, like

23:24.46
Nathan Pile
we're in such a way that, you know, the, the, the scripture passage is referring to a time of distress that the nation is living through.

23:31.44
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

23:33.75
Nathan Pile
um And we wouldn't, you know, some people might say that we're living in a time of distress, I guess, as a nation. But it's also, you know, we're, we're pretty peaceful. We haven't been taken over by another ruler.

23:49.85
Nathan Pile
You know, there there's the idea of distress

23:56.02
Nathan Pile
for to today's world. Yeah.

24:02.23
Nathan Pile
Like it would, it would, their distress might be around something different than what our distress today is. Not to, and all of that is to simply say that, and, and you laid it out, you said, you know, I don't think God necessarily wants us to be exhausted.

24:20.15
Nathan Pile
um And yet our, our culture, society, the whatever you want to call the stressors of of our current age that fall upon us,

24:36.54
Nathan Pile
um

24:39.83
Nathan Pile
they make us feel exhausted. Sometimes maybe we could make different choices. to change that. Sometimes I also think we feel like we don't really have the power to change some of that because it's our employer or it's the work that we're doing, or even the ministry that we're providing for that.

24:52.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

24:58.78
Nathan Pile
There's still a need out there. And so we have to do this thing. um So um I'm just, I'm again, we're talking about again, a time period of Isaiah and,

25:14.65
Nathan Pile
you're talking a couple you're talking couple hundred years before Jesus,

25:20.09
Nathan Pile
and then we fast forward from Jesus at another 2,000 years. So, like, we as human beings struggle with exhaustion.

25:34.30
Nathan Pile
Sometimes it is outside, the outside world applies that to us. Sometimes, I think, the thing that causes me to the pay attention here is that there's political upheaval. There's things that I don't necessarily always agree with that are in the news, one with, one, one side of politics or the other.

26:03.93
Nathan Pile
But I would say overall, my distress isn't coming from a lack of security on my part.

26:06.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

26:10.97
Nathan Pile
My distress is coming from other other, other things and my exhaustion is absolutely, you know, some of it is my choosing and some of it is the, the realities of the world that surrounds me. Whereas I think as Isaiah is writing, the people that are reading this feel distress and complete powerlessness in the midst of that distress.

26:40.15
Nathan Pile
I guess I still feel like I have some level of

26:41.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah,

26:43.93
Nathan Pile
I don't want to say control because I don't really feel like I have control in ah in the world in which I live. Um, other than like I'm free and I have liberty to make certain choices that are mine and my family's.

26:48.66
Kevin Shock
yeah.

26:57.62
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, I can choose to go out to dinner tonight.

26:57.72
Kevin Shock
yeah

27:03.22
Nathan Pile
Um, a, because I have the wherewithal to be able to do that, get in my car. I have a couple of bucks. I can buy dinner at a restaurant. Um,

27:11.97
Kevin Shock
Right.

27:12.18
Nathan Pile
So there's that level of freedom that I still can live into.

27:18.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

27:18.58
Nathan Pile
And yet, I, you know, I'm still kind of struck by Isaiah writing this, you know, 24, 2,500 years ago, maybe longer.

27:19.77
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

27:28.89
Nathan Pile
um and And this phrase, this first sentence saying, those who were in distress won't be exhausted and saying, well, do I have some hope?

27:42.94
Nathan Pile
can I, can, Can I not be exhausted? I'd pick that. I'd pick not being exhausted.

27:50.57
Kevin Shock
sure, sure

27:51.96
Nathan Pile
So I don't it, it, it just is interesting to me that this passage stirs that up again.

27:59.17
Kevin Shock
yeah, yeah I, I appreciate hearing that um And I think, I think it's important to mention, we we talk about this often, that you you and I might enjoy a certain position of privilege that there are other people in our nation who don't.

28:18.96
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

28:19.38
Kevin Shock
And I agree with you that I feel pretty much the same way you do, that that there are things that come at me from the outside that ah drain me.

28:35.96
Kevin Shock
but I still have some semblance of control over how exhausted I actually feel, so to speak. Or or I have at least, I have the ability to, and maybe maybe this is a point of privilege too, that I, that I feel like I have enough autonomy, self autonomy, maybe that's redundant, um

29:03.54
Kevin Shock
to recognize that my level of exhaustion is somewhat related to my own sense of perspective.

29:11.83
Nathan Pile
yeah.

29:12.73
Kevin Shock
um I would say, and I know from talking with people and from hearing stories of people, that there are, there are people who do live in distress in this nation right now.

29:27.67
Kevin Shock
um I think that there are if not everyone, there are significant chunks of women and people who are in gender minorities ah who feel, ah you know, I mean, there are, there are outright assaults.

29:53.53
Kevin Shock
And I think that's a fair word to use on the, ah The freedom of choice for women and transgender people when it comes to their own health care. um Had a quick conversation recently that I'm, I'm not even going to give the,

30:12.53
Kevin Shock
The not detailed version about because it's not my story and it's not my place to say, but I will just say I had a conversation with someone who told me explicitly that they were they felt unsafe because of their lack of access to health care in a particular situation that they were in.

30:29.40
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

30:33.27
Kevin Shock
And, and they would be, they would be returning to a situation soon after that where they would be safe, they would feel safe again, and they would get the care that they needed. But in that particular moment, they felt unsafe. and, And they, they placed blame, rightly so, rightly so, on leaders who had limited their access to healthcare. Yeah.

31:00.57
Kevin Shock
it That was a conversation that did not surprise me, but it punched me in the gut. and, And it should have. It should have.

31:07.46
Nathan Pile
Sure. Sure.

31:07.64
Kevin Shock
Because that but that wasn't something that...

31:07.66
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

31:09.95
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, it's, it's not something that I that I have to worry about, to be honest with you. ah um I, you know, The other thing is, we're a nation who treats immigrants terribly.

31:25.66
Kevin Shock
And I know, I know you and I personally don't treat immigrants terribly, but, um, but as a nation we do. And, uh, and there's a lot of fear out there right now.

31:36.89
Kevin Shock
Uh, people, especially undocumented people, again, someone who's known to me that I know secondhand, uh, who is undocumented and, um,

31:51.61
Kevin Shock
have had conversation with the person through whom I know them firsthand ah but about the fears of the family. And yeah, it's, it's not, it's, it's not fair.

32:05.66
Kevin Shock
And I know that like the political rhetoric is to say, well, they should have come here the right way. Well, well this is a person who, you know,

32:16.34
Kevin Shock
they, They did come here a way that was legal at the time that they came and and now they've been, now they're being held in a holding pattern that is unfair to them and unfair to the people who love them and care for them.

32:28.02
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

32:31.90
Kevin Shock
And yeah, and, and when you have when you have permanent resident status but are still in fear of being deported

32:44.12
Kevin Shock
That's not fair. It's just not fair. And so I understand why, yeah, why this is a person who lives in distress. I just want to say quickly, because this is turning into a very long conversation about distress and exhaustion and, and all that stuff. I, I'm, I want to be careful to strike a balance between what we have control over and what we don't have control over. I've always, for a long time,

33:13.56
Kevin Shock
um since, One of my interests I've come to um I've come to realize is ah I'm interested in historical periods where there have been people who were being oppressed and the resistance movements that have come from the underground to liberate.

33:40.50
Kevin Shock
And, and that, that's long before I was a pastor. I just, I, I've, I've always had an interest in um World War two and the plight of Jewish people and Romani people and LGBTQIA people in, in the midst of a government and a people who wanted to eliminate them.

34:09.14
Kevin Shock
and um And in the same way, since I first heard back when I was probably like 14 or 15, there was a a bishop from South Africa, a bishop in exile, um who came to talk at Zion Lutheran Church in Hollidaysburg. And I don't know how the connection was made, um but hearing him talk,

34:34.17
Kevin Shock
and, and receiving some literature from the movement that he was a part of as a, as a resistor in exile.

34:45.05
Kevin Shock
Um, I just, like, I, I have had this interest, I guess is the, is the soft word for it in, in the apart, in the apartheid era and the anti-apartheid movement.

35:01.05
Kevin Shock
And, um,

35:04.60
Kevin Shock
So that's a long way to say, I said, I was going to make this short. That's a long way to say, like, I've read a lot about, and writings from, Nelson Mandela. And I've always been intrigued how he could speak about freedom, even while being imprisoned.

35:22.45
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

35:23.61
Kevin Shock
And if he didn't say it explicitly, he said it implicitly that, that he, there were specific choices he made in prison about how he was going to live that, um,

35:35.48
Kevin Shock
allowed him to see a way out to freedom. And

35:42.49
Kevin Shock
I have always been fascinated by that. It's something that I have told myself that it doesn't matter how much distress I'm in, I can choose freedom. We have a text that's very central, I think,

35:55.48
Kevin Shock
to my philosophy of faith, and that is, for freedom, Christ has set you free, which is very different from the um American phrase, freedom isn't free. the Scripture tells us that freedom is free.

36:10.87
Kevin Shock
um But I also would never want to say to somebody else, I know you're in distress, but you can choose to be free.

36:24.18
Nathan Pile
Right.

36:24.62
Kevin Shock
that's, that's an unfair thing to say this has been a really long discussion but I think we're touching on some things here that maybe are vitally important to our understanding of scripture and our understanding as people of faith oh

36:24.90
Nathan Pile
Right. Right.

36:42.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. And again, is as we talk about it, like Kevin and I know we're not solving it today.

36:51.58
Kevin Shock
no no no no no

36:53.21
Nathan Pile
but I do think we, this is, this is a part of, of being a Christian. We keep wrestling with it. It keeps coming up in scripture and we keep wrestling with it.

37:00.09
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

37:03.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

37:03.48
Nathan Pile
We keep, um, pointing at it and see it, taking the perspective of scripture and applying it to our world today, our lives today, and, and looking for people who are distressed today.

37:03.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah, absolutely.

37:17.21
Nathan Pile
And, um, And though we, we may have one level of distress that Kevin has articulated that there are others in our communities that are suffering far more than we are.

37:30.14
Nathan Pile
And so how can we, how can we be good neighbors?

37:31.59
Kevin Shock
Sure.

37:36.01
Nathan Pile
How can we walk alongside those um who have that, who are exhausted and are distressed in ways that might be different than others?

37:41.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

37:45.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

37:49.05
Nathan Pile
than we talk about it.

37:50.68
Kevin Shock
yeah

37:52.28
Nathan Pile
I think the one thing I don't want my own exhaustion to get in the way of walking with others who are distressed in and exhausted.

38:02.58
Kevin Shock
Oh, that's a,

38:06.78
Kevin Shock
yeah, that's a, yeah, yeah, that's, that, there's a lot of wisdom in that, Nathan.

38:12.41
Nathan Pile
Well, and I think, I think that's the thing that that calls, like in the midst of, you used the word busy a while ago, in the in the midst of a busy world, I hope I might live in such a way that I'm not so exhausted from living in in our busy world that I don't have the energy to walk with others who are distressed and exhausted.

38:12.82
Kevin Shock
Thanks, thanks for saying that.

38:38.46
Nathan Pile
So I think that's the thing that sticks out to me here after this 30 minute conversation around this. That's the piece that I want to walk away with today.

38:48.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And right.

38:52.47
Nathan Pile
So.

38:52.81
Kevin Shock
And, and even, even in what you say there, there's the, the tension and the balance between what can I control and what can I control?

39:00.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

39:01.56
Kevin Shock
And, um, and also the need for,

39:07.58
Kevin Shock
I don't want to take the easy way out, but, uh, honestly, ah recognizing that I'm not, I'm not as, ah as an effective and advocate for someone if I'm, if my energy is at zero.

39:21.79
Nathan Pile
Right. Yeah.

39:23.13
Kevin Shock
Um, and, and, and how, how to find the balance of not using that as an excuse to not be an advocate for somebody. Uh, yeah.

39:30.37
Nathan Pile
right.

39:33.27
Nathan Pile
Well, and I would imagine, my friend, as your call changes here. We're on the precipice of, of your, your, your call changing and it already has changed in many ways.

39:45.10
Kevin Shock
The precipice.

39:46.11
Nathan Pile
Um, well, whatever you want to call it, but, um,

39:46.15
Kevin Shock
Oh, gosh. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah.

39:51.19
Nathan Pile
ah But as that shifts, I, a prayer for you that I might have then is also for you to be able to to care for yourself in ways that you have in the past so that you can continue to be that ear in this new call.

40:09.94
Nathan Pile
um

40:10.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

40:11.99
Nathan Pile
So, because there can be things.

40:13.02
Kevin Shock
Yeah, ear and the other and the other prayer I, um, I covet is recognizing that there will be times that I'm called to be a public voice and that I use that, I exercise that faithfully.

40:29.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

40:32.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I, you know, I don't, I'm not at the I'm not the point where I feel like I'm, um I should be making statements about things, but right now, as we record this, we're, we're a week or so out from the invasion of Venezuela.

40:49.08
Kevin Shock
And so I've been thinking a lot about what would I say publicly? What should I say publicly? um and And recognizing now that it is a complex situation, but there are certain things that I think we can point to as Christian people about what is what is good and what is not good.

41:12.21
Kevin Shock
So that's those are things I continue to wrestle with.

41:13.07
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah.

41:15.19
Kevin Shock
But let's, let's look at this a second time, 41 minutes in.

41:18.39
Nathan Pile
Oh, only a second time. Okay.

41:21.40
Kevin Shock
Maybe we've already covered some of the ground on these last two questions, but.

41:24.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah, yeah, we probably have, but um second time through.

41:31.38
Nathan Pile
Nonetheless, those who were in distress won't be exhausted. At an earlier time, God cursed the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali.

41:42.84
Nathan Pile
But later he glorified the way of the sea, the far side of the Jordan, and the Galilee of the nations. The people walking in darkness have seen a great light.

41:56.09
Nathan Pile
On those living in a pitch dark land, light has dawned. You have made the nation great. You have increased its joy.

42:08.15
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what God calling you this text? as those who divide plunder rejoice as on the day of Midian you've shattered the yoke that burdened them the staff on their shoulders and the rod of their oppressor

42:30.42
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is god calling you in this text?

42:35.32
Kevin Shock
ah To orient myself toward the dawn. And in that orientation, um, helping others to orient, orient themselves toward the dawn.

42:48.25
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

42:49.14
Kevin Shock
Quick answer.

42:50.68
Nathan Pile
Well, and I, would um for just to say quickly as well, because we did take a long time on that first conversation, um the the image that popped into my head as I was reading the question to you was pointing my face, face at this point right now, it's southeast of in my my my house when I step outside the door, because that's where the sun comes up.

43:11.76
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:12.18
Nathan Pile
And so it's that idea, again, of, of knowing that the sun is going to rise over there. and positioning myself because it's coming.

43:22.26
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:23.70
Nathan Pile
um

43:24.22
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:24.79
Nathan Pile
That was a part of what this passage said to me of, of, of, though, you know, as as the knowing that the dawn is coming, how do I position myself to be ready to to observe it, to see it happening?

43:44.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:45.73
Nathan Pile
Um, that too, you know, you, so you said the same thing, but that was, as I was, as I read the question, I thought, yeah, I'm, I would want to be able to kind of position myself Southeast so I can see the sun coming up over the hill.

43:57.91
Nathan Pile
Um,

43:58.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

44:01.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and here we are in a season. I mean, of course, this is season after Epiphany, when light is a common theme. I can remember, I don't even remember what I was preaching on, but on December 21st of this last year, the fourth Sunday of Advent, I was preaching and... um Gosh, can't remember where I was, but that doesn't matter.

44:23.51
Kevin Shock
I, What I remember is um interrupting myself in the middle of my sermon because I was talking about some kind of light. And I said, oh my goodness, today's the shortest day of the year.

44:35.88
Kevin Shock
That means light's going to get longer every day from this point forward until we get to the middle of summer.

44:41.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

44:42.50
Kevin Shock
And there's something about that knowledge that just in my being makes me hopeful

44:53.27
Kevin Shock
that the light is increasing. Yeah.

44:59.61
Kevin Shock
Right. So turn, turn, turn to where, you know, physically, spiritually, where the, where the, where the dawn is going to break. Yeah.

45:11.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And, and one of my favorite biblical texts is that, uh, um, Whose song is it? i Is it Zechariah's song?

45:22.55
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

45:23.54
Kevin Shock
um In the tender compassion of our God, the dawn from on high shall break upon us.

45:29.27
Nathan Pile
yeah

45:30.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's Zechariah. John the Baptist's dad. Yep.

45:39.50
Kevin Shock
All right. Any other thoughts?

45:40.47
Nathan Pile
well they no Well, it's it's just, it it builds off of that idea. It's it's the idea that,

45:50.84
Nathan Pile
again, when we talk about we know the dawn is coming and from what direction it's coming, you know, it's about it's a bit about being observant, it's about being intentional um of the things that we know, that we've heard, and that we can trust, you know? And so...

46:13.75
Nathan Pile
Yeah, there's, there's there's something about about this passage

46:24.02
Nathan Pile
that says, get up and be outside. For me, get up and be outside looking to the southeast um because it's coming.

46:35.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:36.02
Nathan Pile
You know, this, this is who our God is. and, and, and, And of course, Isaiah is pointing back to other times in the in the history of Israel where things weren't good.

46:52.89
Nathan Pile
And then God, God brought the dawn again.

46:59.11
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:59.13
Nathan Pile
And there was praising and um

46:59.35
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

47:03.32
Nathan Pile
and glory. But that again, because of, because God showed up again. among the people, with the people, saving the people, delivering the people.

47:17.88
Nathan Pile
um You know, whatever, whatever part of this, you know, whatever story you're into in that Old Testament. But Isaiah he is, you know, is, is specifically talking about now this time of, for Zebulun and Naphtali.

47:34.49
Nathan Pile
Again, something that would have been in the people of the community's memory

47:42.81
Nathan Pile
when you know that as the story would have been shared people would have known those times when things weren't good but then when they shifted and things were better the dawn brought brought life so

48:03.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:04.76
Nathan Pile
right want to do is a third time

48:06.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah, let's. From Isaiah 9. Nonetheless, those who are in distress won't be exhausted. At an earlier time, God cursed the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali.

48:17.59
Kevin Shock
But later he glorified the way of the sea, the far side of the Jordan, and the Galilee of the nations. The people walking in darkness have seen a great light. On those living in a pitch dark land, light has dawned.

48:30.26
Kevin Shock
You have made the nation great. You have increased its joy. They rejoiced before you as with joy at the harvest, as those who divide plunder rejoice, as on the day of Midian you have shattered the yoke that burdened them, the staff on their shoulders and the rod of their oppressors.

48:48.98
Kevin Shock
ah Nathan, what hope has dawned on you?

48:54.42
Nathan Pile
um well sorry I was, again my, I, um, I went in my own little thought vortex as you were reading that a little bit um uh because I wondered about what does it mean to be the Galilee of the nations um

49:06.53
Kevin Shock
It's okay.

49:13.78
Nathan Pile
And so, you know, is this, a again, this would be something I'd want to dig into a little bit with Isaiah, a commentator or something to to see what exactly that phrase is meaning.

49:21.29
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

49:26.74
Nathan Pile
You know, Galilee wouldn't have been, there wouldn't have been a lot of anything there. There wouldn't have been, there wasn't, um you know, it's not, um Galilee's not a port area necessarily.

49:39.33
Nathan Pile
You know, you have the,

49:40.09
Kevin Shock
Well, it's an in- inland port area.

49:41.74
Nathan Pile
Inland, well, well you have the you have the Sea of Galilee there, which would have been a freshwater body, so it wouldn't have been the Dead Sea um kind of a thing.

49:42.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

49:56.98
Nathan Pile
um but So there would be if you're, you're right, there would be a a small port, but it would have been a small sea, a small sea.

50:08.02
Nathan Pile
area of water, but it wouldn't have been necessarily a major traffic zone of the Roman Empire.

50:13.08
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

50:15.17
Nathan Pile
There there wasn't a ton of resources in this space that Rome was after. So it was something to pass through and not stop in. um In Galilee would be my sense. Again, I would want to read a little bit more to understand what that phrasing means. So that doesn't have anything to do with my answer other than um

50:39.80
Nathan Pile
God has a way of, of, of making the, the places that aren't glorious filled with life still.

50:54.14
Nathan Pile
um

50:55.45
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

50:55.86
Nathan Pile
You know, brings about God's glory and in God's own way in the midst of no matter where it's at. If it's on the other side of the the Jordan, know for its if it is along the sea or even if it's in the Galilee of the nations.

51:11.13
Nathan Pile
um

51:14.07
Nathan Pile
So the, I think my the hope that, that, that has dawned on me, either or at least from our conversation today and the reading of this passage,

51:31.22
Nathan Pile
is that we have a God that that is going to that is going to bring bring the light, um like a God who's going to show up, who, again, it it can be relied upon in such a way that you could get up early in the middle of the darkness and point yourself to the Southeast and know that the dawn is coming and that the dawn will be there.

52:01.08
Nathan Pile
And so we're not alone, I guess, might be the short answer. um What hope has dawned on you? um That we're not alone in the midst of exhaustion and distress.

52:15.29
Nathan Pile
um We're not alone in that. and, And that we don't we don't even have to go far to look to be reminded of that hope.

52:28.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

52:31.51
Nathan Pile
I guess is, is the way that I, I pull all of that together, our conversation today and and what this passage is kind of telling me, that God will bring about celebration in the midst of distress and exhaustion.

52:47.29
Nathan Pile
God will bring about life and joy in the midst of, of, of life, whether it's happening in 2025 or happened in

53:02.65
Nathan Pile
you know 500 BCE um

53:05.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

53:09.14
Nathan Pile
how about you what hope has dawned on you

53:10.81
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think I, I think it's similar to you in the sense that I, um that well, I like what you said right at the end there, that we don't have to go far to see that God will bring the dawn. um And that's included here in Scripture. And I, and I think that... um

53:38.23
Kevin Shock
I think about here, this is Isaiah nine. This is so early in the book with what 64 or five chapters. um And, and really like three books spread out, um, where this is Isaiah talking to people who are not, are they not yet in exile? Or have they just gone into exile?

54:07.10
Nathan Pile
Well, yeah, I think they, they may be in exile.

54:07.35
Kevin Shock
They're,

54:10.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I'm not sure. but But these are people who are at the early like part of the journey, almost in a sense of like, maybe it even hasn't gotten as bad yet as you think as you thought it could be.

54:22.42
Kevin Shock
um

54:22.67
Nathan Pile
Right.

54:23.58
Kevin Shock
But no matter how bad it gets, God is going to bring a new era forth. And it, it might be generations from now, um but it's, it's going to happen.

54:30.97
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

54:36.76
Kevin Shock
um

54:36.96
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

54:39.26
Kevin Shock
So I think there's, I find hope in that, that the, know, to quote a famous musical, the sun will come out tomorrow.

54:52.22
Kevin Shock
oh

54:54.87
Kevin Shock
I don't think, I don't think that's exactly the spiritual way that I want to phrase it, but, but that the dawn, the dawn will break upon us.

55:01.36
Nathan Pile
Sure.

55:04.18
Kevin Shock
And, um and, and, So I think that, um, there are, um, there are ways to keep that in front of us and to remember that no matter how bad things get, um, God is still going to bring that dawn, that dawn forth.

55:23.06
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

55:23.19
Kevin Shock
And I was thinking about some of the things that I was talking about earlier, like, you know, life is complex and things ebb and flow, but, um,

55:36.57
Kevin Shock
The concentration camps were eventually liberated. Then again, life is complex and things have been flow. So, you know, maybe it hasn't always gone the way that we want it to um since then.

55:48.47
Kevin Shock
ah But um at least the the political philosophy of apartheid ended. People were freed. um Yeah, so liberation does come.

56:03.93
Kevin Shock
I wish it were more lasting.

56:06.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

56:07.10
Kevin Shock
I wish it were more lasting and I trust that one day it will be more lasting, but, but liberation does come and the dawn breaks upon us.

56:18.39
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

56:19.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah. That's, that's my hope or what I find hope in. Yeah.

56:27.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah. And again, your, your words, that idea of, um, liberation dawning that you know that's who God is. God is liberation dawning over and over and over again and and even today you know you've talked about world war ii you've also talked about more current struggles with immigrants with um with gender inclusion um God is still

56:37.18
Kevin Shock
hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:00.18
Nathan Pile
working through us, through through our world to for liberation to dawn again. and

57:10.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I pray so.

57:10.90
Nathan Pile
and it would be great that and And it would be great if we get to the place where all people have a life of dignity and liberation, but we're not we're not there.

57:21.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

57:23.76
Nathan Pile
And so we're continue we continue that journey.

57:28.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yep.

57:32.28
Kevin Shock
yep

57:35.90
Nathan Pile
Any other thoughts you have to share before I look at the additional texts?

57:41.02
Kevin Shock
I don't think so Let's look at the additional texts.

57:43.70
Nathan Pile
Other things to dig into, other scripture passages this week, Psalm 27, chapter, or Psalm 27, verse 1 and verses 4 through 9. 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verses 10 through 18. And the gospel is Matthew chapter 4.

58:03.74
Nathan Pile
verses 12 to 23. The revelation of Christ as a prophet here is Matthew's text. So as is the case, even on this dreary day, Kevin, thanks for um

58:23.83
Nathan Pile
sharing a conversation and reflections with me is that helps to show the dawn of God again in the midst of our world.

58:31.74
Kevin Shock
Yes, indeed.

58:32.57
Nathan Pile
So um If you have other reflections that you all take out from our conversation or from just the readings themselves, feel free to share those with us either on Facebook or through the Gmail.

58:46.87
Nathan Pile
um We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

58:51.29
Kevin Shock
And peace.