S4 Episode 11: Matthew 5:1-12

Translation: New English Translation (NET Bible)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

In what area of life do you find blessing?

Additional texts:

Micah 6:1-8

Psalm 15

1 Corinthians 1:18-31

Transcript

00:02.68
Kevin Shock
Hey, hey, hey, it's time to Tend. maybe someday I should, maybe someday I should think about what I'm going to say before I actually say it.

00:06.33
Nathan Pile
Hey, hey. Wasn't

00:11.90
Nathan Pile
was that, wasn't that like the beginning of Fat Albert?

00:12.07
Kevin Shock
um

00:15.32
Kevin Shock
Fat Albert.

00:16.69
Nathan Pile
Yes, that's exactly what it is. When you said it, I was like, hey, where do I know that from? Hey, hey, hey.

00:23.96
Kevin Shock
yeah that Yeah, I didn't quite say it that way. I said it more like um Taylor Swift in Shake It Off.

00:32.28
Nathan Pile
okay. That's a, that's a, I know exactly what that sounds like.

00:39.38
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:41.53
Nathan Pile
I'm a Swifty.

00:41.85
Kevin Shock
oh

00:42.92
Nathan Pile
I'm a Swifty. I'm up on how Taylor says things in songs.

00:47.38
Kevin Shock
yeah good, good, good, even shake it off though is an incredibly old reference at this point I feel like that was I mean that was like what 10 12 years ago at this point I don't know

00:49.34
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:01.69
Nathan Pile
I don't know. I'm again, I'm just ah just and um' a newfangled Swifty, so I haven't ah haven't been with her since the beginning, like like you obviously like you obviously have been.

01:12.92
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah mean Yeah, me neither. For sure.

01:16.90
Nathan Pile
so

01:17.69
Kevin Shock
No, no, no, I haven't. I, I've dipped into a couple of albums and that's about it. um Anyway, hey, hey, hey, it's time to tend. ah Today, Nathan and I are looking at ah Matthew chapter 5, verses 1 through 12 from the New English translation, the Net Bible.

01:38.55
Kevin Shock
um That is available for your perusal on BibleGateway.com or the Bible Gateway app. i Or you can also simply find whatever version is ah nearby and you'd utilize that one as we read this text.

01:56.89
Kevin Shock
um This is a text that is familiar. to a lot of Christian folk. um But of course, reading different translations of it, I think maybe Nathan and I have even tackled this text before, ah but reading different translations of it can open up different understandings of it. So whatever translation you have as you listen to us, is you can you can look for the things that aren't quite the same and it might reveal something to you.

02:24.76
Kevin Shock
And then you can ah email us and tell us about it as well.

02:24.74
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

02:28.47
Nathan Pile
Something about Christ, something about Matthew, something about Matthew's community. All of those things could be revealed in these, in these writings.

02:36.18
Kevin Shock
Yes, that's right. That's right. Yep. and, and even what words mean.

02:42.01
Nathan Pile
All right.

02:42.26
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, because I know that there are translations that use, there's one word that's repeated throughout this text that ah many translations use, but one of my favorite translations, the CEB, uses a different word for it.

02:58.01
Kevin Shock
um Blessed versus happy. So the three questions we're going to utilize today to explore the text are what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

03:08.57
Kevin Shock
Toward what is God calling you in this text? And in what area of life do you find blessing?

03:17.67
Nathan Pile
Some information about your hosts. We're men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

03:31.13
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read and we read scripture and discuss it. But none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

03:48.76
Nathan Pile
So what so we want to know what you hear and think from your life perspective to enrich our understanding of the text.

04:01.59
Nathan Pile
All right, Matthew chapter 5.

04:09.18
Nathan Pile
When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain. After he sat down, his disciples came to him. Then he began to teach them by saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

04:24.84
Nathan Pile
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek. for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

04:41.46
Nathan Pile
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

04:53.74
Nathan Pile
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me.

05:11.20
Nathan Pile
Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven. For they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.

05:23.45
Nathan Pile
If you're with a group, If you're meeting with group, you can pause the podcast now and and engage the questions on your own. um And if you're just listening along with Kevin and I, Kevin, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

05:46.49
Nathan Pile
Okay, what you can't see is Kevin has got his hands on his head, his forehead. He's like massaging his scalp.

05:53.83
Kevin Shock
Sorry.

05:54.07
Nathan Pile
And he's thinking so hard of what he's going to say. and now he's ready.

06:01.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. No, I also, um I was starting to say something, but I was muted because my dog was about to go nuts at something outside. um And I forgot to unmute myself. um It, ah there are a couple of things that jump out at me and and I was kind of thinking about more about something for the second episode.

06:22.65
Kevin Shock
question but I think I, yeah, I can't avoid it. It's the, it's the insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you um and you know, Nathan, you and I talked in the last episode about the position of privilege that we hold uh based on our our uh gender color that you know ethnic background etc language of origin that kind of stuff um

06:30.07
Nathan Pile
hmmm yeah

06:51.29
Kevin Shock
I don't feel like ah I'm insulted or persecuted. and And maybe there are people who say all kinds of evil things about me, but I don't hear about them. um And so ah there's there's a bit of a sense of,

07:12.60
Kevin Shock
what am I doing wrong? but And maybe that's ah maybe that's an unfair thing to wonder but um but it does make it makes me wonder about there's there's so much about this text that deals with position ah and ah we can talk a little

07:34.33
Nathan Pile
say, say more, Say more about position.

07:37.34
Kevin Shock
Okay, well, since you invited me to do it, because there was some there's some place that I should say more about it, I, I think that this text is all rooted in position. um Because this is, look at who are look at the people who are blessed.

07:51.73
Kevin Shock
They're the people who, looking back to our last episode, are in some way in distress. um Or humble. Humble.

08:04.02
Kevin Shock
um poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, those who hunger. And then we also have the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and those who are persecuted for righteousness. So so there's either there's either a position of humility or a position of maybe humiliation, for lack of a better word, but, but, but, but a position of distress.

08:30.55
Kevin Shock
that Jesus is naming as being the blessed people. um And as I alluded to earlier, the the common English Bible and some other translations use the word happy. Why would people in distress be happy?

08:44.76
Kevin Shock
um But there's, there's promise in these, in these sentences that Jesus says, ah but it doesn't erase the fact that these people are in a what some might consider to be a lower position in society.

09:03.48
Kevin Shock
And I think that, again, in the lines that we talked about last week, we can choose to make ourselves low or we can be made low by others.

09:15.99
Kevin Shock
um But it yeah, I, so it all has to do with position. I guess, I guess, it I'd like to think of myself as merciful, pure in heart, a peacemaker, but I definitely am not one who is persecuted for righteous righteousness or insulted or a person that all kinds of evil things are said about me falsely.

09:42.14
Kevin Shock
ah I have mourned, but I'm not mourning now. I wouldn't call myself meek. I don't think of myself as poor in spirit. I don't hunger. ah Well, I, again, I like to think that I hunger and thirst for righteousness, but um but maybe I don't do as good a job of that as what I think I do. Yeah.

10:04.47
Kevin Shock
yeah So those those those words, the insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you, have me have me thinking about position and and and how I'm not maybe in the position that of people that Jesus is talking to in this reading.

10:28.66
Nathan Pile
um well I appreciate that I that look of at position um

10:37.62
Nathan Pile
I think as I as as um as I was reading this, again the repetition of blessed um really does stick out but it's, but it's almost, I, I, um

10:59.66
Nathan Pile
It almost gave me a sense of, like, and, and it says it in the verse third the third verse, blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

11:13.30
Nathan Pile
And maybe that's where I'm getting this idea. But as I, as I read blessed over and over and over again, like in my head, it almost became belong.

11:28.82
Nathan Pile
So I, I heard, I heard an invitation in this.

11:29.97
Kevin Shock
um

11:35.58
Nathan Pile
um And I agree with you that it doesn't feel like maybe some of this criteria match me.

11:49.02
Nathan Pile
and so I'm not sure if if I'm in a position, but yet to to have all to have what is being offered here. But again, at the same time, this idea of blessed over and over and over again also makes me kind of feel like we're all being invited in.

12:08.60
Nathan Pile
We all have a way of belonging because we you're not mourning now, but you have mourned.

12:10.54
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

12:16.43
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

12:17.08
Nathan Pile
um And there are times, even as the bishop-elect, the all-powerful bishop-elect, there will still be times when you will feel meek.

12:30.68
Nathan Pile
um And I say that jokingly, everyone, just because, you know, we say about the bishop and in in our and sometimes in our world, we think people with a title like bishop means that they have all of this power and control, but that was in other generations.

12:50.20
Nathan Pile
ah

12:50.96
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

12:51.80
Nathan Pile
Sorry, buddy. Sorry. That's not to, you know, But like there's still pieces of, of all of our lives, hopefully, maybe not always, but that this invitation lands on us.

13:10.30
Nathan Pile
um and, and, And I guess that's, as I kept reading, blessed, blessed are... um is the common phrase the whole way through three through 11 starts out each phrase with, um, blessed are. And, and again, that's about the translation that the, the person that the people that were translating the NET here use this language, as you said, others have used the word happy.

13:36.50
Nathan Pile
Um, but there's it don't, to me, as I was reading it it, just feels like there's an invitation to, to come along. um God in whatever in whatever position you're in.

13:54.71
Nathan Pile
And though I would agree at times I'm not positive these reflect me. And definitely if you read Luke's, I think Luke's is the one where I'm really like, ooh, I'm definitely not a part of this group.

14:07.77
Nathan Pile
um

14:08.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

14:09.37
Nathan Pile
um And sorry, I threw that out of nowhere at you all. but So the Beatitudes show up in Matthew and they show up in Luke. um Those are the two places. And so they're a little different in Luke if you read them because they also have the woes.

14:23.67
Nathan Pile
um

14:27.22
Nathan Pile
Is that right? There's the woes in Luke.

14:28.95
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the Woes is in Luke, yeah.

14:29.46
Nathan Pile
um so But looking at this or reading this, i don't just there was something about this that kept...

14:30.90
Kevin Shock
Yep.

14:39.26
Nathan Pile
me Again, I think maybe I was influenced by that third verse, the for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. But it just felt like blessed are and all of these people are, are, are in. All of these people belong.

14:56.09
Nathan Pile
And so it was kind of a it felt a little bit more like an, an invitation maybe than on other times that I've read this. I'm not going to say that invitation is the only thing that I've gotten out of this because I have preached on this text many of times. And I know I would have used that idea of invitation before, but, but as, as I was reading at this time, that idea of, of an invitation, these, these are, this is who's being invited in blessed are being invited into the kingdom.

15:28.22
Nathan Pile
They belong. And, and, And um I wouldn't say it in, in pride, but there are that first one usually catches me pretty easily.

15:42.94
Nathan Pile
Blessed are the poor in spirit. Though I want to be a child of God, a child of the light, a child of the spirit, I can't say that I'm always

15:57.02
Nathan Pile
full of the spirit. And so...

16:02.52
Nathan Pile
would be a phrase that would to me would catch most of us that there are times in our lives where the spirit of god um we just don't feel the spirit of god as as fully as other times in our lives and so we also know what that feels like to be poor in spirit um and so each of these clauses, statements, I guess, or sentences, each of these sentences in this translation, um

16:35.83
Nathan Pile
to me, kind of feel like an an invitation. Like, you're, you know, you know I think a back to to Oprah, and, and you know, with the the joke is that, you know, you win a car, and you win a car, and you win a car, you know, but, like, instead, it's, it's,

16:40.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Oh. Hmm.

16:52.82
Nathan Pile
And you're you're in, and you're in, and you're in and you're in um kind of a thing. yeah all of All of you are blessed, um whether you're poor in spirit, whether you've you're sad, whether you're hungry, seeking righteousness, um you know or you're you've you've been merciful.

17:13.59
Nathan Pile
um You are a peacemaker. You're in. kind of It just felt invitational to me, um more so than maybe other times that I've read it. So

17:26.87
Nathan Pile
that was my... Your position thing also kind of played off of that for me a little bit. So that that added, I guess, to my part of my reflection was um that it didn't... To me, as I read it, it didn't matter the position because I felt like God was painting with big, broad brushstrokes.

17:47.54
Kevin Shock
okay yeah and I'll and I, I will take that. I, I will take that. I think, I think, well, I'm, yeah, I will, I'll take that i don't know what that means i what i mean is i appreciate that that spin on it because i agree with you that Luke's um Luke's version of things

17:57.30
Nathan Pile
ah

18:09.73
Kevin Shock
uh

18:12.34
Kevin Shock
seems to be a little more condemning i don't you know oh or or maybe or maybe it a yeah maybe maybe it excludes people because there are there are the blessings and the woes um

18:15.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah. I would agree. Matthew is kinder.

18:25.85
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

18:27.67
Kevin Shock
this doesn't have that exclusion stuff, but I, I appreciate you saying that, you may, may have mentioned that there's promise in each of these things, but I think a better word for it, or a word that encompasses more of promise is, is invitation.

18:43.42
Kevin Shock
um

18:43.54
Nathan Pile
No.

18:45.88
Kevin Shock
That it, I think it comes across to you as invitation because there is promise in it.

18:50.84
Nathan Pile
Yes.

18:50.94
Kevin Shock
And yeah.

18:51.51
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yep.

18:52.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:53.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

18:53.28
Kevin Shock
And that's, it's important to remember that this is an invitation. This is not, Yeah, this, this is not quite, we have it later on in Matthew, but not quite yet, not the separation of the sheep from the goats.

19:04.98
Kevin Shock
um

19:05.23
Nathan Pile
Right.

19:07.13
Kevin Shock
we yeah We also have to remember that both the sheep and the goats don't recognize their Lord whenever the Lord comes to them. a Yeah.

19:16.03
Nathan Pile
Well, but this is, ah again, is the, the promise piece ah that you articulated earlier and and have kind of helped remind me of that idea of of God's love and forgiveness.

19:31.03
Nathan Pile
Like, come and experience God's love and forgiveness.

19:34.34
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

19:34.74
Nathan Pile
you will, you, All you all.

19:35.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

19:36.92
Nathan Pile
you know all

19:38.15
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

19:38.37
Nathan Pile
Blessed are all you all. And... and Come and experience God's love and forgiveness.

19:47.35
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

19:50.43
Nathan Pile
So, and usually we call that God's grace.

19:51.19
Kevin Shock
Yep.

19:53.28
Nathan Pile
I usually flesh that out a little bit more with God's love. But God's grace, come and experience God's grace.

20:00.17
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

20:04.95
Nathan Pile
anything else?

20:05.02
Kevin Shock
All right. No, let's look at it a second time.

20:08.76
Nathan Pile
Let's do it.

20:12.89
Kevin Shock
From Matthew 5. when Jesus saw the crowds he went up the mountain after he sat down his disciples came to him then he began to teach them by saying blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

20:39.62
Kevin Shock
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

20:51.32
Kevin Shock
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me.

21:04.64
Kevin Shock
Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.

21:13.46
Kevin Shock
Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

21:19.86
Nathan Pile
ah

21:25.24
Nathan Pile
there I got caught in the first verse as you were reading it and had ah kind of my own thought vortex kind of going. I knew the question and so I was kind of asked myself that question as ah you started to read.

21:38.07
Nathan Pile
And then you said, after he sat down, his disciples came to him. um

21:43.80
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm

21:44.89
Nathan Pile
and And so there's this, um like, my understanding of this text is that he's not just teaching his disciples, he's teaching the crowd.

21:56.41
Nathan Pile
um Maybe I'm wrong with that, but I think that's the way I've always considered that this was Jesus teaching all of them. But yet there is something um that Matthew's telling us by the disciples coming um

22:16.34
Nathan Pile
and then being near the teacher you know In my mind, I had them coming and sitting down next to him in my as he began to teach.

22:26.97
Nathan Pile
um And so kind of that was where you know the the invitation piece that we just talked about, I think, blends into this of what I feel called towards.

22:37.50
Nathan Pile
ah but But there's a part of this that that the disciples

22:46.14
Nathan Pile
are here. Right.

22:48.88
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

22:49.46
Nathan Pile
that sticks out to me as, I don't know if it's particularly important, but it is, it it's it's what caught my fascination this time through as you were reading it.

22:59.90
Nathan Pile
Um, and like, what does it mean to be already have been called to come and follow? And they're now doing that. They're coming and following Jesus, wherever he goes, whatever he's teaching.

23:13.43
Nathan Pile
And, and here they could, slink off to the edges a little bit, hide out in the midst of a giant crowd, um you know maybe go find a spot underneath a shade tree and let Jesus teach, and they could veg out for a little while. but But that's not the disciples. The disciples are, they've they come and, and gather around to hear what's being shared. And then I, and then my, then my head kind of just went with,

23:46.07
Nathan Pile
but what what What do they think of each of these phrases as disciples? um

23:51.88
Kevin Shock
Mm. Mm.

23:53.05
Nathan Pile
Do they see themselves in those words? do they do they feel included? and at do they feel the invitation to be um here next to God? Because God's Son is is teaching all who have gathered, the crowd that has come um that has come up the mountain to the mountain,

24:14.46
Nathan Pile
or come to the mountain they've all come to be, to hear what this man is saying. um And yet there seems to be these disciples, um you know, the inner circle is is still very much engaged and listening. But it helped me to kind of think about, well, what what would they, you know, do they see themselves being invited

24:45.59
Nathan Pile
Because again, as we talked about earlier, this feels very inclusive. So all of the other people who came to the mountain to listen might find, hear one of those phrases and think, ooh, that's me.

24:59.26
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

24:59.35
Nathan Pile
But do the 12 also fit into that?

24:59.82
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

25:01.63
Nathan Pile
and And so that's kind of where this kind of took me. I didn't go much further than what does God call me towards, other than to to be a listener, to come

25:12.42
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

25:13.08
Nathan Pile
and, and, And to listen, to, to not, um

25:19.70
Nathan Pile
again, sometimes ah I think about my, so like when I served on summer staff and even my summer staff every summer, um we're we' we're constantly saying, hey, sit with the kids when we're doing campfire and worship. Be with them, engage with them. It makes it a richer experience for them and for you

25:43.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

25:43.45
Nathan Pile
than if you just all filter to the back and sit back there and talk to each other and so there's a feeling of that to me here in this i guess is where the this idea that disciples came to him and sat down and and listened as he taught like they they too were engaged um and were a part of what was happening with the crowd. They could have, again, easily moved off to the periphery, to the outside edge and, and, and been like, you know, listening, but listening in half.

26:17.56
Nathan Pile
um But here they're, they're, they're just as fully engaged as the rest of the crowd. So, so, you know, maybe all of that kind of the, that idea of listening, that idea of being engaged, I guess are things that I hear in this passage of this time through.

26:25.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

26:37.50
Nathan Pile
Because there is that invitation there. so

26:39.93
Kevin Shock
Well, I like your answer better than mine, so let's just keep it at that.

26:44.06
Nathan Pile
ah I don't think it's about rating systems. It's about what you heard in it.

26:49.02
Kevin Shock
no it's, No, you're right. You're right. It's not about rating systems, but I'll tell you why I think your answer is better, because my answer was going to be that I feel called to live into ah being prophetic.

27:07.67
Kevin Shock
um And I think, I think this is around my ah my insecurity regarding that ah people aren't insulting me. or persecuting me um and it seems like nah jeez that, no I don't, I don't want it. I don't, I don't want it. I'm, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure there will be criticism and I mean that that's i'm sure but there will be warranted criticism um which I uh I, I, I both crave feedback and don't like criticism but i think that's that's pretty normal um

27:21.50
Nathan Pile
I just say give it time, buddy. I say give it time. Bishop elect, just give it time. Just give it time. Sure.

27:32.00
Nathan Pile
Sure.

27:46.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah, pretty normal for all of us.

27:47.58
Kevin Shock
ah but,

27:52.38
Kevin Shock
but I guess, well, honestly, so what your response is helping me think about is that the first role of profit profit is certainly called to speak, um, to be a voice for the people whose voice is not lifted up, uh, or to be a ah um the, uh,

28:08.77
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

28:12.98
Kevin Shock
The definition that I learned from Carol and Scott Custead when I was in confirmation class, a a mouthpiece for God.

28:22.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

28:23.13
Kevin Shock
um ah that Both of those things are vitally important, but but I also, now you have me thinking that in order to be faithful to either of those roles,

28:36.25
Kevin Shock
I, you first have to be, anyone first has to be a one who listens. to God and to the plight of the people around them. um So yeah, that's yeah you have me you just had me thinking about it in a different way.

28:55.45
Kevin Shock
Um, I, uh, you know, a prophet, I, I was thinking of profit as, you know, one who, uh, is called to put themselves out there and maybe be bold in a, in a way that, um, does draw attention, not to yourself, but to the message that you are proclaiming,

29:21.75
Kevin Shock
ah But that doesn't that doesn't come without a lot of preparation. And even for Isaiah.

29:28.70
Nathan Pile
Sure.

29:29.26
Kevin Shock
you know Isaiah is reluctantly cast into that role. and And says to God in Isaiah's in the in the call story, are are you sure you want me to do this? Isn't there somebody better to do this?

29:44.28
Kevin Shock
And then there's that interaction in the temple where The hot coal is placed against Isaiah's lips and refining happens so that Isaiah will, will be a mouthpiece for God and not, not just say what Isaiah wants to say. Yeah.

30:10.55
Nathan Pile
I think that's a perfectly, um, wonderful reflection.

30:10.87
Kevin Shock
Um,

30:16.29
Nathan Pile
Um,

30:18.04
Kevin Shock
well Well, it was made better by listening to yours. is, yeah.

30:22.05
Nathan Pile
well, but I, but I think again, to me, this kind of points out you're in a time of transition of yourself, right?

30:23.68
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:28.33
Nathan Pile
To like, like, like that's a part of your lens today that that six months ago may not have been there.

30:33.24
Kevin Shock
it is yeah

30:36.92
Nathan Pile
And so as you wrestle with this text today

30:38.07
Kevin Shock
yeah

30:41.30
Nathan Pile
and, and, and, and then you know six months ago or six years from now, like this is something that's always going on in us, you know? And so I just like, i yes, I hear that I, your friend know that you're in this trend time of transition.

30:54.92
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

31:00.57
Nathan Pile
But listening to you means that you're looking at the scripture passage also in some different ways um of what God's calling you toward. um And so I think it's,

31:17.20
Nathan Pile
it's, It's a blessing to sit on this side of the microphone and, and watch you wrestle with that, hear you wrestle with that um today a little bit because because it is different.

31:25.84
Kevin Shock
Mmm.

31:28.67
Nathan Pile
like you know We talked about this of just briefly the last week as well. of And today you said provide a voice for people that don't have a voice in our in our culture and our society.

31:44.75
Nathan Pile
you've been, you've been given a space and place to do that. And so it is absolutely a part of all of our calls, I think, as Christians to do that. But I think absolutely the, the, the Bishop elect, um, the Bishop to the the soon to be, installed Bishop, um,

32:07.19
Nathan Pile
Absolutely, that's a part of your call to call all of us in those ways and and to to recognize that um you have this has got a different, though there there will be things that you do that are similar to some of the other parts of your office.

32:31.06
Nathan Pile
Being a proclaimer of the word.

32:35.54
Nathan Pile
has been a part of your call for 20 years. and And I think as rightly, at least I sense that you're, I'm, I'm hearing from you, it continues, but it continues with a little bit bigger microphone.

32:54.26
Nathan Pile
um and

32:56.52
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

32:58.81
Nathan Pile
And with that, I think it does, you know, I think yeah we do, need to think about and, and wrestle with what does God call us to do?

33:10.06
Nathan Pile
You know, I think about, as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, you're not the Pope, but we have a new Pope um also in the world and, and what kinds of things he's had to think about um in his role.

33:24.54
Kevin Shock
Mmm, mm-hmm.

33:25.58
Nathan Pile
And, and again, being discerning about where, Everybody's going to want you to chime in on every issue, but every issue shouldn't be chimed in on, probably.

33:42.01
Nathan Pile
And so it's going to take some wisdom and discernment on your part um to know when it is and and and for who you're speaking. And that that, I do think, takes some wisdom and time and reflection.

34:00.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

34:01.94
Nathan Pile
It means, you know, this, this is a time where Jesus is teaching on the mountain, but Jesus also sometimes goes to the mountain to recenter himself.

34:12.86
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah.

34:14.33
Nathan Pile
And, and I think that's probably a part of, of, of this.

34:15.06
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

34:18.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

34:21.06
Nathan Pile
So, yeah.

34:23.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, that's, um I mean, I think, yeah.

34:30.14
Kevin Shock
I appreciate you having, having you to reflect back to me things that you're hearing me say.

34:35.69
Nathan Pile
put that back to sure but I think it also tells all of us yeah but I think it also tells all of us that there's a place of you know you know we've talked on this podcast in the last three and a half years uh, it has been a half a year I guess, but um like our world is changing and I think we as christians as God's disciples are going to need to change to meet the need

34:38.92
Kevin Shock
It's, and it's incredibly helpful. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

35:04.79
Nathan Pile
of this new age and on a prophetic voice i do think is going to be one of those gifts that the that the world needs again um and I think we have to work hard to make sure it's not our, as you said you know Isaiah's wor- you know it's not Isaiah's words it's not our words

35:06.60
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

35:16.41
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

35:20.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

35:31.64
Nathan Pile
but they're they're you know they're they're whatever we're sharing is rooted in God's word.

35:37.98
Kevin Shock
who

35:37.98
Nathan Pile
It's rooted in, in who God is and what God is, is calling and envisioning for the world.

35:46.74
Kevin Shock
yeah

35:48.63
Nathan Pile
So.

35:51.70
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah well that yeah that gives me more to reflect on I appreciate it um yeah I'm thinking about well thinking about lots of stuff but um We talked in our last episode last week, which through the, the, the, the what's the word I want to use? I don't know.

36:18.01
Kevin Shock
but Not magic, but the, the deception of podcasting. um what What you listened to last week, Nathan and I actually recorded an hour ago.

36:28.09
Kevin Shock
So.

36:29.01
Kevin Shock
We're, we're on the, ah, we're, we're still on the same day, but we had talked, we had talked about um we talked about statements on the situation in Venezuela.

36:31.29
Nathan Pile
We're still on the same.

36:39.47
Kevin Shock
And in that time between us talking about that and now, our presiding bishop has released a statement. and um And I was able to do a quick scan of it while we weren't recording.

36:51.35
Kevin Shock
um And it's the kind of statement that I would want our presiding bishop to make. And it may not be perfect, And in fact, it doesn't take a side.

37:02.84
Kevin Shock
It recognizes the complexity of the situation and um it and, and it calls us to greater unity moving forward um while also living into that Lutheran theology of the cross where it, it names a thing a thing.

37:07.14
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

37:26.20
Kevin Shock
So I yeah, I, and I think about those are the kind of Those are the kind of prophets who bend my ear. that um The prophets that... ah you know you we Kevin, me, in all of my wants and desires for the world might be looking for...

37:50.58
Kevin Shock
a statement that just takes a stand and says, this is what's right and this is what's wrong. Because I, I think all human beings crave that cut and dried kind of information or stance.

38:04.28
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

38:04.57
Kevin Shock
but ah But a statement that talks about the complexity of things and and renews our call to prayer and working for justice and listening to our neighbors and accompanying them in need, which is not exactly what presiding Bishop Curry said, but I think that's a fair encapsulation of it. um

38:28.28
Kevin Shock
That's the kind of statement that intrigues me because it calls us to something. It calls me to something other than just saying, well, this is what's right. And this is what's wrong. And, um, because that's not how, it's just, it's just not how, it's not how faith works.

38:47.54
Kevin Shock
It's not how the church works. It's not how God works to be drawing lines all the time.

38:50.82
Nathan Pile
Well,

38:54.10
Kevin Shock
And, um, yeah.

38:55.58
Nathan Pile
and I would say historically, maybe it was because it's a very human thing to do, right? We want to draw lines. We want to say who's in and who's out, right?

39:03.35
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:04.34
Nathan Pile
But I think one of the things that I'm recognizing in, in our lifetime and in the churches

39:05.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah,

39:13.66
Nathan Pile
living through this this paradigm shift is that that usually, you know, when we're, when we were drawing lines and saying absolutes, we're probably excluding others.

39:27.96
Kevin Shock
yeah.

39:28.21
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and, and that's the struggle I think of what I, ah some of what I sense is happening right now in our world and in our church and in the church is that we, as the church are saying it's the, the living in the wilderness, living in the gray,

39:28.57
Kevin Shock
yeah

39:48.41
Nathan Pile
is hard. We want to live in black and white. We want to live in the world of, and, and I mean, I need to come up with a different phrase than black and white because it's not about white skin and black skin. It's, but something that's clear, clear, cut and dry, something that's clear and and something that's a little bit more,

39:59.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's, that's why I said cut and dried. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Right.

40:07.64
Nathan Pile
um there's there's, there's mystery, and there's questions. And we're not exactly sure what the right path is moving forward.

40:19.73
Nathan Pile
That part of, but that's a little bit more real. I think at times, you know, um you know, when I have ah had a daughter, or when I still have a daughter, but when she was younger, it was, it was about what are the rules?

40:36.44
Nathan Pile
give me the, give her the rules, give her the boundaries of what life is.

40:38.00
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. who

40:40.92
Nathan Pile
And I think sometimes still, even as adults, we want to know what are the, what are the rules, what are the boundaries and who's right and who's wrong. Um, but again, gets, it's, it's not, you know, the adult world isn't as, as easy or as simple as making it clear.

41:00.59
Nathan Pile
Uh, it's harder to make it clear today. Um, in, in all sorts of realms and places, politics, finance, you know you name it.

41:11.19
Nathan Pile
um And so how do we, you know as as a Lutheran Christian, I guess I've always felt like, um you know we, we talk about saint and sinner.

41:22.62
Nathan Pile
So we're both at the same time. Well, that's not clear.

41:24.49
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:25.59
Nathan Pile
um That's not clear either. That doesn't delineate. much of anything for us. How can you be two things at the same time? Well, I think that's a part of the richness of, of the Lutheran tradition, but I don't think that we're that far off of any other Protestant faith tradition either. And so, um you know, all of us as Christians live with that and live with the, the unclear, the, the wilderness kind of feel, um, to the world. And so trying to figure out what the right way is, we, we want it to be clear, but, but our world isn't that way. And oftentimes it means walking in whatever,

42:19.38
Nathan Pile
pea soup fog kind of situation it is in that moment in time but doing it with others and listening and paying attention to the trail as best we can so that we do so that we're so that we're were hiking with and intention to follow the path that God is is trying to lead us on and so yeah so I like yeah I think it's

42:29.55
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

42:41.98
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

42:50.30
Nathan Pile
the the the The fogginess of our world doesn't mean God's not leading us in the midst of that. But I do think it

43:02.65
Nathan Pile
it it is that we as as Christians on the way need to be paying a little bit more attention. It would be great to have the big flashing yellow sign that says, this is the right direction.

43:19.67
Nathan Pile
But we live in a world right now that everything's saying, this is the right direction. um every Every left, right, um and forward all say, this is the right direction. And they're probably...

43:36.34
Nathan Pile
in our and you know, Because everybody wants their way to be the right way. But finding God's way in the midst of all of those is a challenge. is a challenge

43:47.83
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that's That's for the things that you say, that's what I value about our faith tradition. that we we And there are other faith traditions that value the complexity, the mystery of God and the complexity of humankind.

44:08.18
Kevin Shock
ah in the world at large, and there are faith traditions that say, well, this is the way it is. This is what God says. that's, That's the end of the conversation. And that's, that's a hard pill for me to swallow.

44:23.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

44:23.93
Kevin Shock
even Even looking at...

44:24.44
Nathan Pile
but But I think it's probably just as hard for others to say, what do you mean there's no clear?

44:29.72
Kevin Shock
yeah Right, right, right.

44:30.39
Nathan Pile
Just tell me the thing. um But, but I've come to, I've come to really value

44:32.38
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

44:38.76
Nathan Pile
that our tradition doesn't do that.

44:41.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um Yeah, me too. me Yeah, absolutely. Me too. um That ah one of my friends and high school classmates and college roommates, Ryan Holland, ah did a did a master's degree on he can correct me if he ever listens to this clinical psychology. I think it was something in that regard. And I remember him talking to me one time about work that he was doing that was talking about. um religion and, and what attracts people to religion and um I, this is a terrible paraphrase uh and, and distillation of what he actually said to me but but what I remember from the conversation is that um there are two kinds of people ah who are attracted to religion one are the people who want who find comfort in being told what to do

45:40.34
Kevin Shock
And um the other kind are people who find comfort in the exploration of the unknown. And ah and you you know you could you hear that and you see the way that denominations are split or traditions have different, different ways of approaching theology.

45:51.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

46:03.85
Kevin Shock
And, and I that makes absolute sense to me. Yeah.

46:07.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

46:08.03
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:10.62
Kevin Shock
All right.

46:11.38
Nathan Pile
All right. I guess it's time to do this a third time, huh?

46:12.23
Kevin Shock
Let's, yeah, let's keep exploring. Yeah.

46:16.28
Nathan Pile
and I see what you did there.

46:18.94
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:22.35
Nathan Pile
Verse 1. the mountain after he sat down his disciples came to him then he began to teach them by saying blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted blessed are the meat for they will inherit the earth Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

46:48.63
Nathan Pile
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

46:59.71
Nathan Pile
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me.

47:13.71
Nathan Pile
Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.

47:23.51
Nathan Pile
Kevin, in what area of life do you find blessing? Or if you prefer the translation, happiness.

47:32.82
Kevin Shock
No, I don't, I don't think I prefer that right now. um I don't know. This is a pretty broad question, Nathan. I, I don't, I don't know what I was thinking about or trying to get at whenever I wrote this question.

47:47.86
Kevin Shock
I, I think, well, I'm thinking back on what we were just talking about. I do find blessing in um it in not knowing everything.

48:00.25
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

48:00.82
Kevin Shock
I, And I think that um ah think that a clear, there we go, clear understanding. I think that an understanding that I don't know everything um helps me to be realistic about my position in the world.

48:18.42
Kevin Shock
um but I, I think that you know I've, again, having a conversation with someone earlier today about this about a ton of things but this was one of them is thinking about how um I've been ah my prayer life has already changed uh because of this change in position.

48:42.61
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

48:43.03
Kevin Shock
And um ah for a long time, my, my prayer life is was mostly a um position of listening and, and receiving and observing and it being mindful.

49:00.22
Kevin Shock
um I'm starting to ask God for things again.

49:05.62
Kevin Shock
um And also listening.

49:06.36
Nathan Pile
yeah

49:08.46
Kevin Shock
but But one of the things that I'm asking God for is ah that I remember that this is not my work, but it is Christ's work.

49:21.82
Kevin Shock
um so, So my head doesn't get too big. And so I don't make the mistake of offering wisdom that is my wisdom alone and not the wisdom of the Spirit.

49:35.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So, yeah, so I finding, I find solace, I find frustration too, but I find blessing in and not knowing everything.

49:56.47
Nathan Pile
as I, um, as I thought about your question my um

50:03.06
Nathan Pile
my mind just kind of went into the different phases of, of life, you know, family, friends, work, um, in what area of life do you find blessing?

50:09.96
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

50:13.24
Nathan Pile
And, and I think the hard piece for me was that I find blessing in all of those parts of life.

50:18.69
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

50:18.81
Nathan Pile
Um, like that was, it wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't get a clear sign in my head of, Ooh, here's this one part of life is where I get blessing. Um, you know, and so I experienced blessing when I'm out supplying in a congregation, I experienced blessing.

50:35.49
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, we just had the holidays and so being with family and friends and, um, playing games and putting puzzles together and just sitting and talking, um, there was blessing, ah in, in all of that, um, kind of as, and so To think, you know, it was it's was hard for me not to find in all areas of life some level of of blessing.

50:41.34
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

51:04.33
Nathan Pile
um I think the, the thing that, that, that stuck out to me as I was, as I was doing it,

51:17.33
Nathan Pile
rarely the blessing wasn't something that I planned, but became a part of whatever the time or moment was. And so like, ah for instance, would be, you know ah you know, I'm going to supply it a local congregation um for, for Christmas Eve.

51:35.48
Nathan Pile
It wasn't in my head that, oh, okay, we're going to put this all together and it's just going to be a you put the service together, put the sermons together and everything was going to be You know, it, it was, it was just being in the space with the people that have gathered.

51:50.78
Nathan Pile
um And when I look back on the evening, it felt like a blessing. um

51:57.43
Kevin Shock
Mmm. Yeah.

51:57.85
Nathan Pile
The conversations, that the chit-chat, the children's sermon that imploded because the kid didn't want to sit with the pastor and he cried the whole time. Yeah.

52:08.92
Nathan Pile
Kind of a thing. So, but the rest of the congregation played along. And so, you know, the it was the, the, the, the, the very, it was being together with with the other people that made the blessing the, that provided the feeling of blessing. So, you know, and, and again, I, when I say the other people, I also live and, and, and trust that the Holy Spirit is there in our midst, not just in worship, but in in family gatherings and friend gatherings. you know, that we had 13 of our staff come back for the staff reunion. And so sitting around, we opened silly presents that the camp director bought and made everybody unwrap at different times.

52:52.89
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, and, and just the joy that we had in those moments of celebrating, you know, somebody got a pair of socks with my face on them.

52:53.11
Kevin Shock
Oh, my

53:02.04
Nathan Pile
Lucky them. Um, ah ah now I'm sure they went home and said, this is my favorite Christmas gift of the whole year.

53:03.96
Kevin Shock
ah ah ah oh my gosh

53:10.34
Nathan Pile
Um,

53:11.90
Kevin Shock
yeah

53:12.02
Nathan Pile
But, ah but, but it you know, the gift part of it wasn't intended to be the blessing. The thing that was a blessing was all of the laughter and then people stealing gifts from each other because it's like a white elephant thing, right?

53:23.07
Nathan Pile
People could steal gifts and, and you know, oh, hey you got that over there.

53:24.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah,

53:26.75
Nathan Pile
And, well, I want to steal that. and So, you know, screaming goat or whatever, you know, was all, again, it was all very, very good um gifts from the camp director that he could find for $5 kind of a thing.

53:41.04
Kevin Shock
right. yeah right

53:44.36
Nathan Pile
But it was, it was the gathering of the community with the Holy spirit in our midst where the blessing was felt, where that we're going back to what we talked about earlier, that idea of invitation and belonging, that, that feeling of invitation and belonging occurred within the community.

54:02.49
Nathan Pile
as we were to gather together. And it wasn't necessarily something that we had all planned or something that we put into place that really made it feel like that. It was just in the time of being together that that blessing was, was experienced.

54:13.28
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

54:15.18
Nathan Pile
so So I think that that would be my that that idea that blessing is in, in, in all parts of life and God has a way of showing up and making us feel blessed in those moments.

54:28.60
Nathan Pile
But in my experience, thinking back just in the last month, typically happens with other people um in the mix.

54:29.50
Kevin Shock
you

54:40.12
Kevin Shock
yeah

54:41.14
Nathan Pile
Kind of a thing.

54:42.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah, well, yeah, no, and, and that helps me think about all of the all of the situations in

54:52.47
Kevin Shock
that Jesus is talking about in this teaching.

54:55.25
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

54:55.67
Kevin Shock
And that um I think it's easy to think that those people might be alone in the situation that they're dealing with, but the reality is probably they're not.

55:09.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:09.24
Kevin Shock
that if someone is mourning, there are other people mourning alongside them. And there's blessing in that, that God, God brings blessing to that gathering. Yeah. Yeah.

55:21.08
Kevin Shock
That's, yeah. That's just what I'm thinking about in, in response to your reflection.

55:28.15
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:32.85
Kevin Shock
Well, anything else that ah you want to lift up?

55:36.55
Nathan Pile
I don't think so.

55:38.74
Kevin Shock
All right, then we'll look at some additional texts for this. Oh, I don't even know what date we're on. But I know we're in this drops.

55:47.16
Nathan Pile
be the end of January.

55:47.64
Kevin Shock
I don't know.

55:48.79
Nathan Pile
End of January.

55:49.16
Kevin Shock
It'll be the beginning of February when the Sunday occurs.

55:50.68
Nathan Pile
Oh, right. The reading will actually.

55:51.81
Kevin Shock
Is that February 1st, maybe?

55:52.47
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:53.37
Kevin Shock
um

55:54.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:55.67
Kevin Shock
I think so. ah

55:59.58
Kevin Shock
So these are additional texts related to this Sunday that you can explore with others. Micah chapter 6 verses 1 through 8. It's the offering of justice, kindness, and humility.

56:14.17
Kevin Shock
Another very well-known text. Psalm 15 that asks the question, Lord, who may abide upon your holy hill? And 1 Corinthians chapter 1 verses 18 through 31 talks about Christ crucified.

56:28.79
Kevin Shock
as the wisdom and power of God.

56:33.46
Kevin Shock
Nathan, I appreciate your reflections. And ah reflections is the right word because I think that God creates us to be mirrors for one another as Christ is a mirror for us in humanity. And and yeah, it's it's helpful for me to talk through some of these things with you and to hear other people's reflections on them as well because it shapes the way I think about these texts and Bible.

56:57.82
Kevin Shock
God and everything in general. ah ah

57:00.98
Nathan Pile
Well, we look forward to you as, as you live in this transition. transition We look forward to you sharing how you see and hear God working among us and and you sharing that with us.

57:15.45
Nathan Pile
So, yeah, look forward to it

57:16.02
Kevin Shock
Well, I think, yeah, and I think I've been doing that for three plus years with your with your help.

57:20.66
Nathan Pile
to it. You already have. You already have.

57:22.52
Kevin Shock
yeah

57:23.16
Nathan Pile
Yep.

57:23.67
Kevin Shock
ah

57:23.76
Nathan Pile
Yep.

57:25.18
Kevin Shock
So friends, we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

57:29.30
Nathan Pile
And peace.