S4 Episode 13: 2 Peter 1:16-21

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How do you find worthy interpretation partners?

Additional texts:

Exodus 24:12-18

Psalm 2

Psalm 99

Matthew 17:1-9

Transcript

00:01.50
Kevin Shock
Hello, welcome back to Tend. Again, not a flashy introduction, but we're glad to be here with you ah talking about scripture, reading scripture.

00:11.49
Nathan Pile
Your hello made me think of, I just lost his name, um the guy from Silence of the Lambs. Hello, Clarice.

00:22.20
Kevin Shock
No, no, no, no.

00:23.10
Nathan Pile
Hello.

00:23.48
Kevin Shock
Okay. We're moving on from this already. Um,

00:28.98
Kevin Shock
ah Today we are, ah this is actually, we're we're looking here at the um the Feast of the Transfiguration. ah This is the last Sunday in the, will be the last Sunday in the season after Epiphany.

00:43.67
Kevin Shock
ah Lent is right around the corner, folks.

00:46.87
Nathan Pile
Right around the corner.

00:48.06
Kevin Shock
Right around the corner. yeah. so ah yeah

00:51.83
Nathan Pile
And that means Kevin and I will be doing Lenten study on Tuesday nights.

00:55.58
Kevin Shock
It does. Yeah. And ah Nathan will someday remember what we're calling it. um But he's the one who has it written down somewhere. So I don't even know what we're calling it.

01:10.17
Kevin Shock
I see him looking around on his desk. I don't, He's not going to find it in the next minute or two. um

01:15.42
Nathan Pile
No, no.

01:17.88
Kevin Shock
But we are going to be looking at the ah the book By Heart.

01:17.94
Nathan Pile
I'm not, you're right.

01:22.88
Kevin Shock
which is, and I don't have the book right in front of me either to tell you what the subtitle of the book is, but it's a, it, it looks at the at the history and the content and the implications of ah Luther's catechism.

01:40.02
Kevin Shock
And so what, the reason that Nathan and I have chosen this book to look at with people ah is that we, um, we We think that the Lutheran voice, the Lutheran witness, ah holds good things for the world. And um we want to spend time ah unpacking that with all of you.

02:01.14
Kevin Shock
So please invite people. You will need a copy of the book, which I don't know where that's being publicized. It's not as we record this. It's not yet being publicized.

02:12.34
Kevin Shock
So I can't give you a website.

02:13.24
Nathan Pile
yeah It will definitely be by the time this is um dropped, it will definitely be on the website. It'll be on it should.

02:23.16
Kevin Shock
I hope that it will be on the website much sooner than that because people will have to order a book.

02:26.20
Nathan Pile
Yes, yes. it

02:28.57
Kevin Shock
um

02:28.73
Nathan Pile
Yes, yeah it's actually we're in the middle of, of January, folks. And so I would imagine in the next week it will be up.

02:34.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, this is this is more than a month ahead or about a month ahead from when this episode will appear before you and you'll be listening to it.

02:47.08
Kevin Shock
But anyway, we'll be yeah we'll be going through that book together with ah each other and with all of you as you want to take part in that. So we invite you to do that.

02:57.95
Kevin Shock
That will happen every Tuesday, every Tuesday in Lent.

02:59.16
Nathan Pile
Six Tuesdays, six Tuesdays.

03:03.67
Kevin Shock
Um, at 7pm, Nathan, is that when we normally do it?

03:07.22
Nathan Pile
Correct. Seven o'clock. It'll be on zoom and there'll be a zoom link on the website as well.

03:08.92
Kevin Shock
7 o'clock Eastern time?

03:11.90
Nathan Pile
And Sequanota's website as well.

03:13.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Um, so that's all to say this is Lent is about to start. And so today we're looking at a reading from the readings for the Transfiguration Feast, 2 Peter 1, verses 16 through 21.

03:31.74
Kevin Shock
The translation is the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition. And our three questions that we're utilizing. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text?

03:42.49
Kevin Shock
Toward what is God calling you in this text? And how do you find worthy interpretation partners?

03:51.29
Nathan Pile
Some information about your hosts. We're men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

04:03.13
Nathan Pile
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of it makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

04:17.72
Nathan Pile
So we want to know what you hear and think about from your life experience as you hear scripture.

04:29.87
Nathan Pile
I guess we're going read it, huh

04:32.79
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

04:34.81
Nathan Pile
huh? 2 Peter 1, verses 16 to 21.

04:41.21
Nathan Pile
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty.

04:54.62
Nathan Pile
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that voice was conveyed to him by the majestic glory saying, This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.

05:10.49
Nathan Pile
We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed.

05:23.67
Nathan Pile
You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

05:35.70
Nathan Pile
Excuse me.

05:37.62
Kevin Shock
Bless you.

05:39.51
Nathan Pile
First of all, you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretations. Because no prophecy ever came by human will.

05:53.53
Nathan Pile
But men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

06:03.32
Nathan Pile
If you're meeting with a group, you can pause a podcast now and engage the questions on your own.

06:09.98
Nathan Pile
Or you can listen to Kevin answer question number one. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text, Kevin?

06:21.99
Kevin Shock
Uh,

06:26.31
Kevin Shock
I, it always changes. it changes in the moment that I'm, I'm taken by the, ah you, you will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place.

06:39.11
Nathan Pile
Huh!

06:39.69
Kevin Shock
ah until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Uh, I, I like that image. Um, First of all, ah because it harkens back to the reading that we had from last week, from the Sermon on the Mount following the Beatitudes about letting your light shine.

07:01.05
Kevin Shock
ah Here the message is the light, the prophetic message. um I also like the image of ah we are, not everything is revealed,

07:15.03
Kevin Shock
in this age. And so while we are in this age that still has gloom and shadows, um we are being called to pay attention to that beacon of light that's shining for us.

07:35.25
Kevin Shock
The beacon of light that is that prophetic message.

07:39.48
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

07:42.25
Kevin Shock
And I, and I mean, from, from the few verses we read, the three verses we read ahead of that, the prophetic message is that the, um, Jesus Christ is the, is the one that God has sent.

07:56.25
Kevin Shock
The beloved, the Christ, the Messiah, all those things. He's the one. Uh, what about you, Nathan? What, uh, word phrase or image tricks you in this text?

08:10.75
Nathan Pile
I think overall I'm just struck by how the author wants to make sure we understand or wants us to put aside

08:30.54
Nathan Pile
discounting or or putting aside scripture because it has been

08:41.65
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

08:42.17
Nathan Pile
written by human beings, written to, you know, shared by, like that there's something, that the author wants to make sure here, we're at the beginning of this, at the beginning of this book, the author of Peter wants to make sure that of 2nd Peter specifically, but of Peter wants to make sure that we, we understand that this isn't,

08:45.43
Kevin Shock
Mmm, mmmm.

09:11.90
Nathan Pile
this isn't written because Peter wanted it written.

09:18.17
Nathan Pile
This, um, it's not some other myth that has been devised or come up with. It's not some other storyline. This is all being written down. all of scripture is being written down. Um,

09:34.20
Nathan Pile
and specifically the New Testament is being written down because of what Jesus the Christ, the Lord, has what what others have seen and heard and wanting to make sure that that's that's that's the motivation. That's, that's the reason why, why this New Testament has been has been penned um so that others might know from eyewitnesses accounts.

10:02.65
Nathan Pile
of the majesty of the lord

10:07.80
Nathan Pile
and so it's just real interesting to me here again it's what is it five verses um but but the author of peter is trying to make sure that we understand this is

10:24.50
Nathan Pile
that, that, that what has been what is being written down is uh about passing on what others have seen and experienced and shared over time.

10:39.77
Nathan Pile
Just interesting to me. You know, it would be, I'm trying to think of something in our own day and age that would feel like this but I'm, I'm coming ah up at a blank of, of

11:04.73
Kevin Shock
That would feel like what exactly?

11:07.38
Nathan Pile
like what, what Peter's doing, what the author of Peter is doing here. Um, um,

11:13.95
Kevin Shock
Um, you mean, you mean given, given his bona fides, essentially?

11:19.54
Nathan Pile
right, right, right, right.

11:20.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

11:22.90
Nathan Pile
Um,

11:23.69
Kevin Shock
Uh, yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't know that we have, uh, I, I, yeah, I, yep, yep, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, no.

11:30.87
Nathan Pile
and And maybe now we have such a distrust. Maybe that's what it is. And so people don't even try to do it. ah um and And so here, Peter is just simply trying to say, or the author of of Second Peter, because again, historically, we weren't there. We don't exactly know timelines on some of these things. um But like Peter's trying to say, hey, that this is trustworthy and true.

12:01.02
Nathan Pile
And we're eyewitnesses. And we want to make sure that you hear these messages, this message of of the

12:05.43
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

12:07.77
Nathan Pile
of the son of God. And today, just, right you know, we get sources, I guess journalists get sources, but most of our sources at this point are anonymous sources, right?

12:09.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

12:21.23
Nathan Pile
Like, at least it feels like that way in most reporting is that people speak on the condition of anonymity so that they aren't, you they don't lose their job or whatever.

12:23.79
Kevin Shock
yeah

12:35.03
Nathan Pile
Um,

12:37.39
Kevin Shock
I, I don't think, I don't think that we um I don't think that we care about people's qualifications. um

12:46.16
Nathan Pile
Anymore.

12:47.06
Kevin Shock
No. No, for good or for ill. And, and maybe, maybe we would say that we would, but when's the last time you saw your doctor's medical degree?

13:00.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

13:03.15
Kevin Shock
And frankly, people don't...

13:07.78
Kevin Shock
People don't listen to doctors just by them being doctors anymore. People like all of those professional

13:15.52
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

13:16.40
Kevin Shock
um careers, positions, they've, they've seen a lessening of importance in society.

13:27.66
Kevin Shock
And...

13:30.87
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I don't even, I, I, I cleaned out, well, Lisa did a bulk of the work, but the stuff that I had to do, I did. I cleaned out the, our home office while we were remodeling it and realized, I don't even know where my where my degree from seminary is.

13:52.50
Kevin Shock
like it Like, I have the bag that I thought it was in. that has other things like my, my hood and my, and my cap and things like that. um But the actual degree, I don't have a copy of it.

14:06.62
Kevin Shock
It makes me wonder.

14:06.74
Nathan Pile
Wow.

14:07.59
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. It makes me wonder if I, um if I went like, took it somewhere to be framed and like never picked it up. I don't think that that was, I don't think that's the case.

14:18.98
Kevin Shock
a Well, because I, because no, because I took,

14:21.60
Nathan Pile
Michael's, Michael's could have it still in their back room, hanging on the wall, Kevin Shock.

14:26.68
Kevin Shock
Because I took other things to get framed. um

14:29.50
Nathan Pile
And you went and picked that up.

14:30.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, like my ordination cert-, uh.

14:31.57
Nathan Pile
Oh, okay.

14:34.58
Nathan Pile
Letter, yeah, certificate of ordination.

14:35.00
Kevin Shock
I have that, yeah, have my ordination certificate.

14:37.50
Nathan Pile
I have both of them. I'm looking at both of mine on the wall right now. So they're but both are there. I do have my, my high school diploma. maybe, Maybe Philadelphia just, maybe they never provided you one.

14:52.38
Nathan Pile
Maybe you just didn't get one.

14:53.18
Kevin Shock
No, I have the, I have the holder.

14:55.22
Nathan Pile
We should get in, somebody should do some research on this. We should dig into this, get an investigative journalist.

14:59.36
Kevin Shock
I have, well, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I never did pick it up.

15:04.34
Nathan Pile
Bishop elect, not really, and a graduate from the Philadelphia Seminary.

15:04.40
Kevin Shock
I have,

15:08.40
Kevin Shock
I walked, I have my hood. I was hooded.

15:14.25
Kevin Shock
Every, I'm

15:15.26
Nathan Pile
That makes it official. Somebody got a picture.

15:16.50
Kevin Shock
I'm sure, well, oh my gosh.

15:17.14
Nathan Pile
it let's Let's get Debbie on the phone right now and and get pictures.

15:20.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:22.05
Nathan Pile
She's got pictures, I'm sure.

15:22.62
Kevin Shock
See, what you're what you're doing is actually not helping because this is what, this is what people do.

15:22.97
Nathan Pile
she

15:26.43
Nathan Pile
This is what we do in this age, right?

15:28.18
Kevin Shock
It's what we do in this age, right?

15:29.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah, we shoot holes into everything, right?

15:29.74
Kevin Shock
right That's right. That's exactly right.

15:32.31
Nathan Pile
and he doesn't have He doesn't have documentation.

15:33.12
Kevin Shock
So if right if people don't want to listen to me anymore because I can't find my copy of my diploma, my degree.

15:34.77
Nathan Pile
It must not have happened. And you can't you can't trust you can't trust just what Kevin is saying, that he that he walked or that he has a robe. You can buy a robe anywhere.

15:44.65
Kevin Shock
um But what you're doing right now is what people... In like political propagandists do.

15:53.97
Nathan Pile
Yes.

15:54.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:54.97
Nathan Pile
Yes. But it's, it, it's not just in politics though, right?

15:56.10
Kevin Shock
And.

15:58.51
Nathan Pile
This is everywhere right now in our world. You were talking about doctors. it's, it's the you know We're poking holes in everything.

16:04.06
Kevin Shock
Well, right. Right.

16:06.64
Nathan Pile
And that's part of what has to happen in ah in this paradigm shift. We, we have to get back to the place where certain things we hold as true.

16:19.00
Nathan Pile
This is a part of this crazy shift

16:19.82
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

16:22.33
Nathan Pile
that that is happening in the postmodern paradigm shift, which is what are the absolutes for the next 500 years? We have to figure those things out together.

16:36.31
Nathan Pile
And so right now that means we call everything into question. Everything, every institution, every organization, every rule and law is up for grabs.

16:48.31
Nathan Pile
And we need to decide as car as churches, as congregations, as, um, as, um, people of the United States, we need to decide what are the things that are, are the absolute truths that we go forward with.

16:54.27
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

17:04.44
Kevin Shock
here

17:05.11
Nathan Pile
And so again, it, it's interesting to me that this, this is our reading, um, here from the new Testament. Um,

17:17.53
Nathan Pile
and

17:21.76
Nathan Pile
they are in a time that's a little bit more stable in that Peter can say these things and people accept it and trust at face value without poking holes it. Well, maybe they poked holes in it. We don't know. I guess we weren't there. But it this reading this reading is included in the New Testament because for hundreds of years, people felt like it was authoritative.

17:50.20
Nathan Pile
And so it's in there.

17:50.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

17:51.74
Nathan Pile
There's lots of things that didn't make the cut in the New Testament. I have volumes, have books and books of things that didn't make in the New Testament, Apocrypha and other stuff.

18:03.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

18:05.07
Nathan Pile
Didn't make it.

18:05.75
Kevin Shock
Well, and, and I think, I think that people hold the Bible as authoritative, but they hold the quote, the Bible, end quote, as authoritative.

18:07.07
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

18:18.58
Kevin Shock
They hold a popular interpretation or, or perhaps a misunderstanding of interpretation um as authoritative, not what scripture actually says.

18:24.42
Nathan Pile
Mm.

18:34.01
Kevin Shock
And I've become more aware of that when I hear people either on social media or somewhere in the public sphere saying,

18:45.88
Kevin Shock
or people known to me sometimes, talk about Scripture in a way that reveals that they don't actually know what it says. ah ah or Or they say something that's contradictory to what Scripture says, or or reveal ah some kind of lack of understanding about basics in Scripture. And um and I don't, I don't know how you can hold something as authoritative whenever you don't know what it says.

19:09.88
Kevin Shock
But, um, but we do that a lot in our society. Now we hold things as authoritative just because someone says they know something.

19:15.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

19:20.18
Kevin Shock
So we think that that person is a good source.

19:21.82
Nathan Pile
Right.

19:22.34
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah.

19:25.11
Nathan Pile
So the trust has left the written word or context and become about the person that is sharing the information?

19:35.45
Nathan Pile
Do you feel like?

19:35.64
Kevin Shock
I think, yeah, I think that's a good way of saying it. And I don't think it's exclusively written, but um

19:40.80
Nathan Pile
Right.

19:42.46
Kevin Shock
I think that people trust the, for good or for ill, trust the relationships that they have. Or like, yeah.

19:55.35
Kevin Shock
Like, a lot of people aren't going

19:56.31
Nathan Pile
so and Because my friend A, I trust my friend A. And when friend A tells me something, I just make the assumption that it's absolutely true.

20:05.78
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yep, yep.

20:07.49
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:08.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and I don't know why that extends to, like,

20:14.20
Kevin Shock
public figures.

20:16.49
Nathan Pile
Sure.

20:16.54
Kevin Shock
Someone you've never met. I don't, I don't know why that extends to that.

20:18.90
Nathan Pile
Sure. What is it?

20:19.90
Kevin Shock
Except that they're probably confirming, it's probably confirmation bias. it's, they're, They're confirming for you something that you yourself believe. And so you're hearing them.

20:29.71
Nathan Pile
Right.

20:32.60
Kevin Shock
But that's not a... um, what, what the author of 2 Peter goes on to talk about at the end of this passage.

20:43.49
Nathan Pile
Right.

20:43.60
Kevin Shock
that's not what that That's not what he's talking about. That this, you know, that a matter of, um well, what does it say exactly? I have to pull, I have i don't have that tab up. um no ah No prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

21:04.54
Kevin Shock
because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

21:04.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

21:10.14
Kevin Shock
Um,

21:13.62
Kevin Shock
if someone is just confirming for you, your own interpretation, because it's what they want to think as well, it's what they think as well. Um,

21:26.87
Kevin Shock
Whether it has any, you know, whether it has any basis in truth or understanding, um that's, I don't think that's what's happening here. Although maybe, I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe if if someone else believes the same that you do and they're using the same source that you use to prove it or to support it, then, you know, it's, it's going to be hard to convince you that they're not getting it right and you're not getting it right.

21:56.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

22:01.46
Nathan Pile
who'd have, Who'd have thought we'd gotten into confirmation bias

22:06.30
Kevin Shock
yeah

22:07.00
Nathan Pile
from the first question?

22:07.83
Kevin Shock
Well, we do have right in verse 19, so we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed.

22:08.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

22:13.51
Kevin Shock
there We are talking about confirmation of information there. Yeah.

22:21.18
Nathan Pile
But when I read the questions and, and saw the reading, I didn't know, I didn't think this was where our conversation would take us today, but it's, it's interesting that it has.

22:27.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

22:31.19
Nathan Pile
All right, you want to do a so second time? Where are we at? Yeah, we should probably do it for a second time.

22:33.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, let's do that. um All right, from 2 Peter chapter 1. chapter one for we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ but we had been eye-witnesses of his majesty For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that voice was conveyed to him by the majestic glory, saying, This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.

23:01.14
Kevin Shock
We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

23:18.26
Kevin Shock
First of all, you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from god Nathan, toward what is God calling you in this text?

23:37.94
Nathan Pile
Um,

23:44.65
Nathan Pile
I think it, as you were reading, I was trying to kind of zero in on this a little bit. I'm not positive I have it fully digested, but I think one of the pieces that, that sticks out to me about this is, uh,

24:02.42
Nathan Pile
a, a, a push of investigating, not a, maybe not investigating, of of searching

24:11.38
Nathan Pile
for God's word.

24:14.81
Nathan Pile
And so this, I, you know, they're they're even within um the author of Peter's words here. um

24:30.36
Nathan Pile
There's a, I guess the image that I have in my head is, is a you know, a circle, it's kind of getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So again, ah I talk about a thought vortex that that this idea of like a tornado, like it's big at the top and so it's pulling things into it.

24:51.29
Nathan Pile
And then as it gets smaller towards the bottom, and it's that that thought vortex kind of pulls together, simplifies to a more singular point at the bottom of it.

25:07.96
Nathan Pile
If you picture that idea of a tornado, you know, there's that sense for me of our, that our our seeking to find the truth about God and God's son is, is that way, that we're, we're, we're going from lots of information to to the stuff that is truly who God is. And so there's this sense in this reading for me that that we need to be a part of that of of of wrestling with of interpreting of hearing and being inspired by

25:48.86
Nathan Pile
um

25:52.09
Nathan Pile
the, the story the narratives that have been passed down to us about Jesus' life and teaching.

26:04.09
Nathan Pile
If we're really going to become

26:08.98
Nathan Pile
a disciple, if we're really going to follow in the way, um there's a ah bit of discernment

26:18.52
Nathan Pile
That is a part of that process. and, And I guess maybe that's that, that piece of discernment to me is that tornado image of of taking information in and wrestling with it and wrestling with it and wrestling with it until it maybe gets to a smaller, more singular.

26:35.06
Nathan Pile
focus as we start to under better understand what's there and so this passage feels to me as if there's some of that happening peter is trying to begin to help the reader um develop their system of understanding, their system of, of knowing what is the truth and and um and so

27:05.30
Nathan Pile
you know what is God calling me towards in this text? It's recognizing that I'm building a system of, of understanding the faith and understanding my relationship with God and, and with God's people. And there's a construction to that, I guess. And, and this passage makes me feel like there's there there is that construction.

27:30.01
Nathan Pile
I don't know if that you know kind of sums it all up completely, but that's kind of where i what I'm feeling. like that There's definitely a process of building ah system of faith for Nathan.

27:42.10
Nathan Pile
and in, in that building,

27:42.98
Kevin Shock
Mm. Mm.

27:44.82
Nathan Pile
like there's this passage makes me feel like there's pieces of that building that has to occur to build that v that that vortex of, of taking in information

28:00.25
Nathan Pile
some of it being scriptural yes but even information and experiences that I have in my own life and being able to to wrestle and and and wonder and ask questions and that all of that builds a system of, of faith for me and and something about this passage just the way that it's worded um and the way that it's been constructed I guess helps me confirm that I'm umm I'm building that for myself and that I can trust those experiences and voices as I do wrestle with it.

28:42.62
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um Well, that's, yeah, that's... um

28:50.06
Kevin Shock
That's helpful for me to hear. um because I, your image, I don't know, I don't know the tornado necessarily, but your, your image of, of taking all this stuff in and wrestling with it and getting it to a point where it makes sense for you and for

29:16.34
Kevin Shock
well, not just you, but for your community, for interpretation as the as the church, um that all makes sense to me. I um i guess the thing that got

29:31.38
Kevin Shock
the thing that that got me thinking about is It's not just information, it's relationship building too, which, you know, we talk about that all the time um in this podcast, in the church, um because it it the information is information that really takes on flesh when if it gets put into practice.

29:58.91
Nathan Pile
Mm.

29:58.94
Kevin Shock
And so, it again, thinking back to our discussion from last week, I think that um this we really start to hone our theology when we are practicing being salt and light in the world and for the world.

30:19.06
Kevin Shock
um

30:19.15
Nathan Pile
Mm.

30:21.37
Kevin Shock
Like we have the information, the information's at our fingertips. We wrestle with it, but it but it has, it has implications for how we live daily life.

30:33.62
Kevin Shock
um

30:36.22
Kevin Shock
and And in some ways, that makes the profession, though I don't think of it as a profession, the calling, um I mean, it is a profession, but the calling that you and I have as pastors of the church, um what makes that different from being a doctor or a lawyer necessarily is that have...

31:03.64
Kevin Shock
like we have ah our All of our source materials are widely available to all of the other people that we engage with.

31:15.76
Nathan Pile
sure

31:15.93
Kevin Shock
and um and And we encourage people to read and discuss and engage those source texts. um you know, you don't go to your doctor and they say, well, you could, you could probably just perform this procedure on your own at home.

31:32.02
Nathan Pile
ah

31:33.02
Kevin Shock
Like you don't have to come see me or another expert. That's not the way that works. And, and same thing with, you know, like I, it makes me think of like, uh, You know, there are certain repairs, household repairs that people can do on their own now, thanks to things like YouTube.

31:50.07
Kevin Shock
um

31:51.58
Kevin Shock
But that doesn't erase the need for, like, if I really get in a jam, I'm gonna, I'm going to need someone who really knows what they're doing to come in and do it.

31:59.67
Nathan Pile
is what they're doing. Right.

32:01.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

32:01.65
Nathan Pile
Right.

32:02.42
Kevin Shock
um

32:02.97
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

32:05.37
Kevin Shock
I can say as a pastor that I have learned about the faith. and gotten a better sense of the faith from people who were not pastors.

32:15.99
Kevin Shock
Um, because I saw the way that they, i witnessed and experienced the way that they live out the faith in everyday life.

32:16.49
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

32:24.22
Kevin Shock
So

32:27.83
Kevin Shock
this, um, this honing of faith or of interpretation or understanding is something that we pastors lead people in,

32:39.87
Kevin Shock
um but we encourage them to keep doing it for themselves too. And that's because I think at least in part, because we've seen the power that it has for us in honing it.

32:45.23
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

32:53.75
Kevin Shock
Um, I mean, I, you know, I've read the Bible. I've read, I've read through the Bible a couple of times and for certain texts,

33:04.98
Kevin Shock
ah you know, the the appointed texts of the lectionary, the ones that we choose from for this podcast, I've read them dozens of times.

33:18.10
Kevin Shock
But it doesn't mean I ever stopped reading them because I don't think that I, I don't get everything that I could possibly get out of them in the reading that I've done.

33:29.94
Kevin Shock
There's there's more There's more reading, more discussion, more practice, ah more discernment to be done. and um And so I guess i'll that um I'll make that my answer to the second question, that I that i keep engaging in that practice, that discernment. But also I think another part of that is that I give people, as a pastor of the church, and

34:02.01
Kevin Shock
By the time we're recording this, a bishop of the church, I want to give people the tools that they need to do that same work on their on their own and in their own communities.

34:13.72
Kevin Shock
I don't always have to be present for it. I'm happy to be present for it, but um but I want them to be doing it at the times when I'm not around them too.

34:30.14
Kevin Shock
That was a lot of rambling, maybe, but.

34:32.28
Nathan Pile
No, no, I think, but I think, again, that the the piece of discernment,

34:41.78
Nathan Pile
maybe it's just the context that I grew up in.

34:46.46
Nathan Pile
But I didn't hear a lot of people saying, not at least and not until I got to college and I went to a Lutheran college.

34:57.59
Nathan Pile
And so I had professors, especially religion professors that that kind of said, keep discerning, keep digging, keep um you know tilling the soil, whatever phrases you kind of want to use.

35:07.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

35:09.78
Nathan Pile
ah But for the first 18 years of my life, that wasn't really It was more about like even Sunday school and stuff was more about trying to teach us the stories and and pass on the faith.

35:26.06
Nathan Pile
And you really, it's not that you weren't asked to ask deeper questions, but you, it wasn't something that felt like it was organic to our, our community and to our sense.

35:37.86
Nathan Pile
until I got to college. and and And when I got to college, professors were like, absolutely, you should be doing this. This is absolutely now that I get that that's also a part of college, right? It's your brains are better form than they were.

35:49.69
Nathan Pile
when I was 12 and 13 when I was doing catechism.

35:51.89
Kevin Shock
well yeah

35:52.81
Nathan Pile
And, um, and so you're asked and, and, and, and actually told, go ahead, ask better questions, dig into it more. Um, And so after college and and through my first five or six years after college, when I was working in camps and before I went to seminary, and but then going to seminary again, like all of that became more, that that's that that that piece of discernment became more a reality for me.

36:26.97
Nathan Pile
and And because it's always been about

36:27.24
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

36:31.58
Nathan Pile
because I've always kind of worked in the area of ministry, whether it was in camp ministry or congregational ministry, and now I'm back to camp ministry, because the church has always been a part of that, um, discern, that idea of discernment, both for me, myself, in what I'm called to do with the gifts that I've been given.

36:54.07
Nathan Pile
Um, it's hard for me to, to, to, uh, that, from everyday life because everyday life for me has always had a level of professional ministry as a part of it.

37:08.66
Nathan Pile
And so I hope for others in in the church, the Lutheran church and other churches, that we're doing a good job of advocating for disc discernment of what, not what God is just calling us to do,

37:25.43
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

37:28.47
Nathan Pile
but the discernment of, of texts as you just kind of talked about um like I just hope that we're doing that not just for the professionals but for everyday christians because I do think our systems are you know the lens at which we look at the world. I don't have my fake glasses they're up behind me here um but the lens at with which we look at the world um i think it's that important that were we're asking questions of it and that we're discerning and we're wrestling with passages to help us better see the world and our relationships with God and with each other.

38:13.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:16.55
Nathan Pile
So I didn't find what you were saying is rambling. I found it to be hopefully helping us to to to be thinking about that because at least there's a portion of me that as I grew up within the church, didn't feel like we were doing that advocating in that direction.

38:37.24
Nathan Pile
And maybe it was because of the structure of it that we said, well, developmentally, they're just not ready for that. But I don't give the church that much credit, I guess. Just, just,

38:47.95
Kevin Shock
Well, and I mean, discernment, because it's a spiritual thing, discernment happens at the level of our understanding.

38:59.99
Kevin Shock
but um I mean, I think, I think children can discern certain things. um They certainly can. They certainly can. We have to pay more attention to kids in worship and in the life of the church. um they know They know when they're ready to receive the sacraments.

39:23.45
Kevin Shock
um

39:25.01
Nathan Pile
Yeah

39:25.79
Kevin Shock
They know if, if they haven't been baptized, they know when they want to be baptized. Because they know the implications of what it means to belong in a, in a group of people.

39:38.49
Kevin Shock
um And frankly, the church has been, has served so much as gatekeeper um that ah

39:55.04
Kevin Shock
we've, we've become the opposite of a discernment partner with certain groups of people.

40:01.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

40:02.45
Kevin Shock
um because we have just said, this isn't for you. And sometimes it's children, sometimes it's older people, sometimes it's people who have certain kinds of disabilities, either physical or developmental, ah people who...

40:25.27
Kevin Shock
um have different gender expressions or sexual orientations, people of color. um ah there, There are all kinds of places where we've drawn lines. And I'm not, and I'm not saying that from a political sense either, but ah but a sense of this, this gift of grace is not for you because of who you are. If you go and you change and you come back,

40:49.35
Kevin Shock
then this gift of grace is for you. Or um this community is not for you because your presence here makes me feel uncomfortable. Not that anyone says that explicitly, but we say it with our actions.

41:03.04
Kevin Shock
um And

41:08.58
Kevin Shock
yeah, yeah, I'd

41:11.80
Nathan Pile
Well, I love that you've pulled in that those pieces of the of baptism and communion. um

41:20.44
Nathan Pile
Because, again, in our lifetime, we've lived through, well, you have to have a better understanding of

41:27.36
Kevin Shock
Sure.

41:27.48
Nathan Pile
communion to have communion you know the church has theologically moved from that place when we were kids to a place of saying

41:27.99
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

41:39.35
Nathan Pile
you know, as I, as parents ask, ask me well, when should I have my, when can I let my kid take communion? I said I would when they put their hand out in there because they see everybody else is getting something that they're not like that's enough to say I know something's going on and you're getting it but I'm not

41:47.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Right. Right.

41:57.30
Nathan Pile
And you don't have to have a full understanding of what that looks like.

41:57.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

42:02.79
Kevin Shock
Right, right, yeah.

42:03.61
Nathan Pile
But I think that's, um again, that's an amazing part of that discernment, trying to figure out, do I belong here? Am I a part of this? And and

42:15.00
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

42:16.50
Nathan Pile
um it's on us as the community to figure out when they get old enough to be able to help teach them understand why that reaching out was important and And not just for the belonging pieces of it of the of the ah belonging fitting into the community, belonging as a part of the community, but what did it, what does it also, is there also not a hunger there to be connected to God in a different way and and sorting that out together? So yeah, I love that, I loved you pulling that in. I hadn't, I hadn't gone there, but, but absolutely, it's absolutely a part of this for sure.

42:59.38
Nathan Pile
All right, third time.

43:01.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah, let's look at it a third time.

43:08.79
Nathan Pile
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. Amen.

43:21.37
Nathan Pile
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that voice was conveyed to him by the majestic glory saying, This is my son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.

43:36.76
Nathan Pile
We ourselves heard this voice from come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed.

43:50.14
Nathan Pile
You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the dawn day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

44:01.98
Nathan Pile
First of all, you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation because no prophecy ever came by human will.

44:14.30
Nathan Pile
But men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

44:23.13
Nathan Pile
Kevin, how do you find worthy interpretation partners?

44:31.54
Kevin Shock
Well, it's got to be people I trust.

44:34.67
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

44:35.54
Kevin Shock
and, and I, um And I don't mean trust after a long

44:46.04
Kevin Shock
a long relationship necessarily. um Sometimes that trust can come immediately. If it's someone who... someone who has something to say that the spirit is saying to me, you need to listen to this person.

45:02.66
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

45:03.35
Kevin Shock
That can be pretty clear. Um, and a lot of times I'll be honest with you. I, I give, it's taken me a while to get to this point, but I give people who have a different, uh, um,

45:21.83
Kevin Shock
background experience life than I do that I tend to give more trust than people who are like me if that sounds sounds counterintuitive when it comes out of my mouth but I think that I think I've been well trained that um different kinds of voices offer something to me um in a way that can shape me and transform me for the good so that I want to hear what they're saying.

45:53.83
Kevin Shock
Now, it's not to say that, you know, just by nature of their being different from me, does it make what they have to say worthy? ah But that's, but that's a, um ah you know, that's something for,

46:07.54
Nathan Pile
But there's a tendency, there's a tendency there for you to be more open to what they're saying.

46:10.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. To be more open. Right. Right. And that's something if, if that's not the case, that's something that I can figure out going down the road, you know, they're saying something to me and I, and I think to myself, well, that doesn't match up with what other people in this similar position have said to me before. well, no, I can't even say that that's true. I don't know, it, I guess, I guess it's a gut feeling, you know, when it comes to some of it.

46:37.72
Kevin Shock
Um,

46:41.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So I think that, uh, I think trusting, trusting a person is a good thing. um and I think that, uh, just for me, um I think, I think, how do I, how do I find them? Well, they find me uh, and sometimes it might just have to do with, uh, being open to listening to other people.

47:09.79
Kevin Shock
Like it, it might have, it might actually have more to do with finding a good partner, might have more to do with my attitude about it than it might have to do with the person themselves.

47:24.79
Kevin Shock
What about you, Nathan? Okay.

47:26.61
Nathan Pile
Well, I'm with you. I think their trust is one of the things that would have to be there. i agree that one of my things has to be that I have to be open enough to listen to find new partners.

47:43.86
Nathan Pile
Because if I'm, if I, if there are times in my life or moments in life where I might be closed off to what could be a absolutely worthy interpretation partner.

47:59.06
Nathan Pile
But if I'm not open to hear them for whatever reason, and, and it because it like I, there has to be an openness on my part to be able to to hear what they have to say. Because if I'm not there,

48:19.74
Nathan Pile
um that, that if there's not an openness there, it doesn't even have to get to the level of that I don't trust them. It's just for some reason I'm shut down. Maybe I'm overwhelmed. Maybe there's too much going on. Maybe I'm, I'm exhausted, whatever that piece is. But I think, you know that word in your question of how do you find, I think finding becomes there For me, there has to be an a willingness to be open

48:52.60
Nathan Pile
to, to new things. and, And thinking about my life in general, there there are times that I could look back in my life and say, I'm the, I was not ready for new experiences or new new interpretation partners or or new information.

49:15.58
Nathan Pile
And therefore, I was shut off to it. And so what could have been something beautiful or worthy, I was too closed off to be open in that moment in time. Doesn't mean that I didn't come back around and revisit it.

49:29.59
Nathan Pile
later on but but in those moments there can be times that I was, I was just not willing to, I wasn't open enough to be to able to go someplace new and so um for for me there doesn't that openness is, is kind of important. Trust is, it is also important and again I'm usually pretty open to trusting at the beginning of a relationship um

49:41.18
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

49:59.77
Nathan Pile
And so again, I think that can be an advantage. I'm willing to hear what people have to say. Again, if there's an openness for from my perspective, then I'm willing to, to a to give some trust just automatically.

50:16.02
Nathan Pile
ah

50:18.81
Nathan Pile
And that, again, comes from, again, maybe some of my privilege. I'm able to trust people that I've just met because I feel pretty safe and secure in who I am.

50:28.66
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

50:29.24
Nathan Pile
um

50:30.57
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

50:31.83
Nathan Pile
Kind of a thing.

50:35.93
Nathan Pile
but if there's an openness there, then trust, I think, can come happen pretty quickly. Again, unless it goes less what they're saying directly if they're thing things that they're saying makes me call into question um there and that confirmation bias can be a part of that um that we talked about in the first 20 minutes that that you know sometimes i'm again the openness if the openness isn't there if they're not saying what I'm, where I'm at, then I might discount or, or, or um

51:11.29
Nathan Pile
not listen as fully to what they're, they might be sharing. So to me, there's an openness ah of that initial listening that has to be, I have to be in the right frame to be able to, to do that.

51:25.89
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

51:26.30
Nathan Pile
And then, and then from, from there and, and setting up that openness can be really,

51:34.01
Nathan Pile
it, if I think about it, it could be really elementary it can be as simple as getting a good night's rest and um and being able to fully be present in that space when I'm possibly encountering a new interpretation partner like it could be that simple but if I haven't slept well or if I'm preoccupied with some other problem that's going on at camp um I might not be fully present when I'm in that, when that time comes. And so, how do we, how do we prepare ourselves for those opportunities as they are coming to be fully present in the space, to be open to what they might have to say? You know, some of that is, is preparation on my part, just making sure that I'm not going into a,

52:27.00
Nathan Pile
a conversation and only being half present um so i think all of that has to um

52:38.74
Nathan Pile
all of that just has to be kind of sorted out. I think for myself, I have to be, I, it's not sorted out by somebody else it's Nathan making sure that he's ready to encounter somebody new

52:52.80
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

52:56.18
Nathan Pile
and being in that and and and recognizing that I have my own prejudice at times when I walk into those places. And so being able to kind of say how do I, not that I can turn off my prejudices, but how can I be aware of them? But how do I also let them not become obstacles in the midst of, of finding new partners?

53:21.88
Nathan Pile
So, yeah. Again, there's a in my mind, if I was really going to be doing this and doing it well, there is some preparation on my front on the front end of this that would help a process of seeking new partners be successful.

53:44.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that that makes sense to me. um it's, It's a bit strange because it's not like,

53:52.50
Kevin Shock
it sounds to me like you're making a path to welcome them into shared work or shared discernment.

54:05.45
Kevin Shock
It's not that you're necessarily going out and seeking specific people with specific things, but you're the, the more important part is that you're making preparations on your own.

54:18.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

54:18.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate what you say too, about being, it, it, it can be hard without a lot of practice to listen to someone, um, and not be, not make assumptions or have, or have distractions in front of you.

54:38.64
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

54:42.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah. It's not as, as it's not as as simple, you know, it can be as simple as let's put a, you have a phone call and say, Hey, yeah let's meet on Tuesday.

54:52.02
Nathan Pile
That's, that's the making the appointment, you know, kind of a thing. But if you're really going to, you know, to me, this, this, I, the question is asking for a deeper relationship, a deeper connection. And so if I'm really going to be doing that, then there's some things I need to do more than just make space in my calendar.

55:10.04
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah.

55:10.89
Nathan Pile
Um,

55:11.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

55:15.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it does take, it takes preparation. It takes work. Yeah.

55:19.38
Nathan Pile
Well, it's a relationship, right?

55:21.24
Kevin Shock
It's a relationship, right.

55:21.46
Nathan Pile
Relationships take time.

55:22.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

55:22.97
Nathan Pile
and, And it builds relation. you know I've said this many times. Relationships take time. takes, It takes building trust. and, And trust takes lots of work.

55:33.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

55:34.33
Nathan Pile
um on an Intentional work on on on all sides. um many How many ever people are a part of the conversation? Yeah.

55:45.16
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

55:45.91
Kevin Shock
Yep.

55:48.35
Kevin Shock
Well, anything else you want to share at this point?

55:51.73
Nathan Pile
Oh, I don't think so.

55:53.02
Kevin Shock
Okay.

55:54.10
Nathan Pile
Thanks for picking this one. I, When I first looked at it, I was like, I wonder what we'll talk about. But this will be a good conversation.

56:00.20
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is, ah trend transfiguration is something that comes up every year in the church. And although we read, have different readings and read from different gospels,

56:15.27
Kevin Shock
This was one I was pretty sure we hadn't necessarily talked about before.

56:17.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I don't think we've wrestled with it.

56:19.22
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So additional text for this, this year in transfig- the, the Feast of the Transfiguration of our Lord. Exodus 24, chapter 24, verses 12 through 8.

56:32.24
Kevin Shock
Moses enters the cloud of God's glory on Mount Sinai. ah Psalm 2, you are my son This day have I begotten you. An alternate psalm is Psalm 99, proclaim the greatness of the Lord, worship upon God's holy hill.

56:50.41
Kevin Shock
And then the gospel reading is Matthew 17, verses 1 through 9, which is the revelation of Christ as God's beloved son. Certainly Nathan and I are each other's interpretation partner, but we have, we have other partners too.

57:04.70
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

57:07.33
Kevin Shock
And we want you to be a partner with us in this, in this work of discernment interpretation. um and And so that's the invitation that we always give that you reach out to us and, and we, and we do read and listen to your comments and, and,

57:26.04
Kevin Shock
and ah where we can have discussion with you about ah things that we've discussed, things that you have heard and seen in Scripture, things that you've experienced yourself. So we always appreciate your reflections, and we hope to tend our faith with you again soon.

57:43.18
Kevin Shock
Grace to you.

57:44.76
Nathan Pile
And peace.