S4 Episode 14: 2 Corinthians 5:20b–6:10

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How does God’s salvation change the way you see the world?

Additional texts:

Joel 2:1-2, 12-17

Isaiah 58:1-12

Psalm 51:1-17

Matthew 6:1-6, 16-21

Transcript

00:00:02.10
Nathan Pile
The middle of February, who knows what the weather will be because we're like in the middle of January. But we're hoping by the middle of February, this Wednesday drop for Tend will land in a day and a time when you're like, man, I could really enjoy some some scripture conversation today.

00:00:33.78
Nathan Pile
So we don't know what the day holds, but we hope your day, where whatever day it is, as you sit down to listen to this, whether it be in a car or in your favorite rocking chair, because Kevin's got a favorite rocking chair.

00:00:34.07
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:47.51
Nathan Pile
You know he does at over 50, closing in on 51. Yeah.

00:00:53.46
Kevin Shock
You can't see my chair, Nathan.

00:00:58.15
Nathan Pile
So we're looking forward to, to digging into scripture here today and and talking about it with my dear friend, Bishop Kevin.

00:00:58.54
Kevin Shock
Oh, man.

00:01:10.01
Nathan Pile
And ah this week we're going to looking at 2 Corinthians 5, verses 20. five twenty verse B. You'll hear where we start that at. It's in the middle of verse 20. But 2 Corinthians chapter 5, verse 20B through chapter 6, verse 10.

00:01:33.76
Nathan Pile
Kevin and i are going to read it from the Common English Bible, um one of our favorite translations. But you can follow along that translation on BibleGateway.com or on your Bible Gateway app on your phone, or whatever Bible is happens to be close at hand.

00:01:53.30
Nathan Pile
But we do encourage you to look at the words as we read the words, at least one of the times. The other times you can just kind of listen to us read it to you.

00:02:03.79
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:02:04.02
Nathan Pile
Three questions, as is habit.

00:02:08.52
Nathan Pile
What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text toward what is God calling you in this text? And then this week, our third question, how does God's salvation change the way you see the world?

00:02:21.85
Kevin Shock
There you go.

00:02:22.87
Nathan Pile
There we go.

00:02:23.21
Kevin Shock
I'll get back to, I'll get back to talking about my chair later.

00:02:23.35
Nathan Pile
on yeah

00:02:28.89
Kevin Shock
I have a new chair. It's definitely an old person chair. So, but anyway, um,

00:02:33.87
Nathan Pile
An old person chair. What makes it an old person chair?

00:02:34.78
Kevin Shock
Also, the um it's ah it's a chair for old people who need to like have better core strength and things like that.

00:02:35.99
Nathan Pile
What makes it an old person chair? Does it rock?

00:02:42.68
Kevin Shock
Lisa, we've never had a good desk chair for this desk where I sit in my home. And Lisa got me one of those chairs that has a space for, for my hindquarters and a space for my knees.

00:02:55.29
Kevin Shock
So like it's a kneeling chair. it doesn't have a back on it. And I can rock it, which is why I was starting to laugh whenever you were mentioning my rocking chair.

00:03:04.18
Nathan Pile
What? You have a place for your knees?

00:03:07.38
Kevin Shock
Yeah. So I'm like kneeling as I'm talking to you. Most, mostly at one, one knee though. I have one knee that's not great. And if I sit too long in this chair, it starts to hurt. So I have to pull it out every once in a while.

00:03:19.85
Kevin Shock
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like take a picture of it and show you right now. You can't see it on the screen. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:03:25.62
Nathan Pile
I think you could do it and put it on the ah Facebook page so everyone can see what this chair looks like.

00:03:31.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, uh, one thing, one thing,

00:03:34.94
Nathan Pile
Or at least me. Or at least me.

00:03:37.53
Kevin Shock
One thing that Nathan did not mention about, he said this week, but this is a special episode. This isn't one of our regular weekly episodes. This is Ash Wednesday.

00:03:46.28
Nathan Pile
Bonus, bonus, bonus, bonus.

00:03:48.79
Kevin Shock
Bonus episode, Ash Wednesday. So get ready to repent, folks, because we're coming into Lent.

00:03:56.76
Nathan Pile
Just this week. Just this week, get ready to read it.

00:03:58.46
Kevin Shock
ah Well, no, right. If you have to get ready to repent, you should just start repenting anyway. um and, and make repentance. We wouldn't be good Lutherans if we didn't say that ah daily repentance and forgiveness is part of our baptismal life.

00:04:12.06
Nathan Pile
There we go. There we go.

00:04:13.63
Kevin Shock
So, um okay, here's some information about your host, other than the stupid stuff you just heard.

00:04:14.30
Nathan Pile
There we go.

00:04:20.50
Kevin Shock
ah We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

00:04:32.60
Kevin Shock
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss, discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another.

00:04:47.51
Kevin Shock
So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience. As Nathan said, today we're reading from 2 Corinthians chapters 5 and 6.

00:04:58.39
Kevin Shock
Paul writes, We beg you as Christ's representatives, be reconciled to God. God caused the one who didn't know sin to be sin for our sake so that through him we could become the righteousness of God.

00:05:12.66
Kevin Shock
Since we work together with him, we are also begging you not to receive the grace of God in vain. He says, I listened to you at the right time and I helped you on the day of salvation. Look, now is the right time.

00:05:25.19
Kevin Shock
Now, look, now is the day of salvation. We don't give anyone any reason to be offended about anything so that our ministry won't be criticized. Instead, we commend ourselves as ministers of God in every way.

00:05:37.59
Kevin Shock
We did this with our great endurance through problems, disasters, and stressful situations. We went through beatings, imprisonments, and riots. We experienced hard work, sleepless nights, and hunger.

00:05:48.38
Kevin Shock
We displayed purity, knowledge, patience, and generosity. We served with the Holy Spirit, genuine love, telling the truth, and God's power. We carried the weapons of righteousness in our right hand and our left.

00:06:01.30
Kevin Shock
We were treated with honor and dishonor and with verbal abuse and good evaluation. We were seen as both fake and real, as unknown and well-known, as dying, and look, we're alive.

00:06:13.69
Kevin Shock
We were seen as punished but not killed, as going through pain but always happy, as poor but making many rich, and as having nothing but owning everything. If you are meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and ask each other the questions on your own.

00:06:32.66
Kevin Shock
ah But since I'm here with Nathan, Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

00:06:38.46
Nathan Pile
Um, that phrase at the end of verse one in chapter six of receive the grace of God in vain. Do not, um, also begging you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

00:06:52.47
Nathan Pile
And so that, um, because this is Paul, you know, doing Paul being Paul, um, like unpacking, what does this mean?

00:07:06.04
Nathan Pile
was kind of where I went as as you read down through this. Again, this CEB using words like beg and begging in its translation um you know is interesting to me, hearing Paul kind of pleading with the people of Corinth.

00:07:28.82
Nathan Pile
But this idea of we're given this gift of God's grace, Again, for me, grace is my definition for grace simply is God's love and forgiveness.

00:07:44.57
Nathan Pile
And so how do we receive it not in, you know again, in vain? And so you know I took it as how do i how do we how do we accept this gift and it not be all about me?

00:08:00.36
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:08:00.50
Nathan Pile
right? Um, and, and, and so to kind of play with what that means then in my own head and and in my thought process, um, you know, don't just, don't just make this, this, this gift of grace wrapped up about you, that it, that it transforms us. It makes us, uh, moves us into, um,

00:08:30.39
Nathan Pile
know God forms us in in a different way through this grace, that it then it then it also has a makes an impact in our lives. It's not just about what God has done for me.

00:08:45.14
Nathan Pile
And so love and forgiveness, how does love and forgiveness become um

00:08:52.54
Nathan Pile
become the the gift that I'm given, but also the path in which I i live and exist on? Kind of a thing. So that was the thing that started that, that jumped out at me ah as you read this the first time down through, um, again,

00:09:13.97
Nathan Pile
Paul's just, uh, uh, he's a different type of theologian than the gospel writers. Um, in that he that he that, he has a system and, and it is informed by the Old Testament.

00:09:26.19
Nathan Pile
We have that here with some of the, right the his phrase that follows is some Old Testament pieces.

00:09:31.36
Kevin Shock
Uh-huh.

00:09:33.19
Nathan Pile
but um But he wants to, he has a system and he wants to try and help other people understand this gift that they've been given by who God is. And and though it's a little,

00:09:50.65
Nathan Pile
In my mind, it's a little, um

00:10:00.15
Nathan Pile
it might be above the common person of his day, but Paul doesn't shy away from writing it. And so that makes whoever it is do some interpretation or and help people understand it.

00:10:09.77
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah.

00:10:14.74
Nathan Pile
And even today, again, language is different now than, than then.

00:10:15.45
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:19.38
Nathan Pile
But I appreciate this translation and this idea of of what Paul wants us to recognize this gift gift that we have. but But there's a sense of, again, him pleading with people to say, hey don't just let this gift of grace be about you.

00:10:36.76
Nathan Pile
you know And so

00:10:37.74
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:10:38.14
Nathan Pile
um that it's interesting to me. Yeah. How about you, my friend? What word phrase or image strikes you?

00:10:43.93
Kevin Shock
Yeah. well, Well, first a reflection on what you say. I don't, I don't know if his, I don't know if his writing is above the, the capacity of the common person in his day.

00:10:54.74
Nathan Pile
so People of the time. Yeah.

00:10:56.47
Kevin Shock
um, um I think it's definitely above the capacity of the common person in our day. And I'm not saying I'm not saying that people are dumber now or something like that. I just don't know.

00:11:06.74
Kevin Shock
I, I, I know it's beyond our capacity to understand Paul. and When I say the common person, I include myself in that too. Paul, but Paul can be a bear to study.

00:11:13.98
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:15.50
Kevin Shock
I mean, it's not like... and Sometimes I worry that we read stuff like this in worship. And if this is the only time that someone, if worship is the only time that someone has to hear this, they just zone out.

00:11:27.69
Nathan Pile
think. Yeah.

00:11:28.62
Kevin Shock
They're not even really listening because it's, it's hard to pick up.

00:11:28.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:11:31.95
Nathan Pile
That's.

00:11:33.21
Kevin Shock
I also wonder, it makes me wonder your reflection. um You know, Paul famously said, where, where was it? Was it, or we hear from Paul in Romans or is it in Acts where he says, mean, he's not writing in Acts, but there are stories about him in Acts that um that where um when I, when I went to the Jews, I, I made myself a Jew. When I went to the Gentiles, I made myself a Gentile.

00:12:01.94
Kevin Shock
I mean, he, he takes seriously knowing his audience.

00:12:05.53
Nathan Pile
The context is in. Yeah. Yeah.

00:12:08.02
Kevin Shock
and And that when he's speaking, he wants to speak on their terms so that they understand this all of these theological concepts, but really the the grace and the love of God. He wants them to understand that.

00:12:20.48
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:12:20.54
Kevin Shock
So I don't know. I know for me, there's a difference between how I speak to people and how I write something.

00:12:27.48
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:12:28.25
Kevin Shock
um not be- not, not a, not, I'm conscious, I'm not consciously trying to do that. But when you're writing something, you have time to think about things that edit them. When you're speaking something, it's, it's for me, it's more on the fly.

00:12:41.24
Kevin Shock
um When it's my authentic spoken voice, when I'm not reading something that I wrote, but when I'm just talking to somebody. um So I wonder if there's some of that, too, that you know Paul writes this, but his audience has already heard him talking to them about all of the things that he's...

00:13:01.15
Kevin Shock
addressing here in one way or another. Anyway, yeah, that just some quick reflections on what you said. um For me, that it's that it is that next verse that jumps out at me.

00:13:14.14
Kevin Shock
um When he refers back to, it's in Isaiah 49 that we read, and I assume that God is saying this in Isaiah 49, I listened to you at the right time and I helped you on the day of salvation. And then Paul writes, look, now is the right time.

00:13:30.94
Kevin Shock
Look, now is the day of salvation. I, I, That just... captures my attention because this is this is Paul saying, if, if you're waiting for God to show up, here it is.

00:13:47.83
Kevin Shock
God has shown up. God has shown up. So let that, let, let, let that fact, that reality guide you in your living with one another. Yeah. I just, I like how...

00:14:05.46
Kevin Shock
In just about any translation, it's plainly spoken, but it's plainly spoken here in this translation too. this is, This is Paul's way of saying, whatever the salvation that you've been waiting for, it's here.

00:14:19.77
Kevin Shock
Grab a hold of it.

00:14:21.98
Nathan Pile
Um, this is probably a big ask, um, of you. but you know, with the title of Bishop, I think it's appropriate.

00:14:27.06
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:14:29.68
Nathan Pile
Um, I love, I love that you've been elected and now I can just throw all of my big questions at you. Um, and yeah well, that's the way I feel like it does.

00:14:36.76
Kevin Shock
Is that how that works? I don't think so.

00:14:39.95
Nathan Pile
So even though we've been friends since we were 20, um, or you were 20 and I was 19,

00:14:48.25
Nathan Pile
um

00:14:49.87
Kevin Shock
That's true.

00:14:50.30
Nathan Pile
um the, when, When Paul talks about salvation, what's he talking about? When he uses that big word salvation, that big churchy word.

00:15:03.61
Kevin Shock
When Paul talks about salvation?

00:15:06.27
Nathan Pile
Well, and, and maybe, maybe you can't, like that would be a, a Pauline question. So maybe let's just define salvation.

00:15:14.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um so Salvation is the, well, what um what Paul writes right here at the beginning of our reading, be reconciled to God. ah um Salvation is, is humankind's reconciliation to God.

00:15:30.30
Kevin Shock
All the...

00:15:30.42
Nathan Pile
being put in being put in right relationship.

00:15:30.66
Kevin Shock
all the being put in right relationship, all the, all the past offenses and all the past ah wrongdoings um have been have been fixed.

00:15:42.71
Nathan Pile
Okay.

00:15:42.87
Kevin Shock
and and now And now we live in right relationship with God through Christ. And because that is a is a reality that we live, um it also means that we are reconciled to one another.

00:16:00.02
Kevin Shock
um That's harder to live out. but it But what Paul is saying here is that there's no barrier at this point.

00:16:04.93
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:16:10.13
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:16:11.10
Kevin Shock
if you're, If you're waiting to figure out how to get along with your neighbor, ah Christ has shown us the way. it's, It's righteousness born out of forgiveness.

00:16:22.52
Kevin Shock
and, and

00:16:23.00
Nathan Pile
Excellent.

00:16:24.22
Kevin Shock
And Paul says be reconciled to God as though it's on us. But, but I think what Paul is really saying here is a pay attention to the reconciliation that God has given you. like God, God has done more than just ah extend the olive branch.

00:16:43.38
Kevin Shock
um God is embracing you, so, so live into it. This reconciliation is yours.

00:16:50.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:16:53.82
Nathan Pile
Beautiful. and, And so concise too. So I think we just move to the second question.

00:16:58.94
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:17:00.34
Nathan Pile
Well done. Well done. Yeah.

00:17:04.34
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

00:17:05.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:17:06.81
Kevin Shock
I am, I am but your humble servant.

00:17:11.09
Nathan Pile
Again, if you're listening to this on February 12th, he's been bishop for 12 days.

00:17:11.74
Kevin Shock
I laugh, I laugh about that.

00:17:15.86
Nathan Pile
so and, So you can leave your comments in on an email of how he's doing after 12 days.

00:17:17.24
Kevin Shock
I

00:17:22.61
Nathan Pile
um

00:17:23.38
Kevin Shock
Oh, thanks. Oh, thanks. Yeah, invite evaluation after before two weeks is even up. Thanks, Nathan. That's really helpful. I, um, to To quote Paul, I'm sure that I, I will be treated with both a verbal abuse and good evaluation as this translation renders it.

00:17:38.58
Nathan Pile
look

00:17:41.87
Nathan Pile
Hey, well, and I just wanted to say, look, now is the right time.

00:17:45.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

00:17:48.02
Kevin Shock
okay all right. Let's read it a second time, please. Pretty pleased.

00:17:53.98
Nathan Pile
yeah yeah, here we go.

00:17:55.51
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:17:55.99
Nathan Pile
We beg you as Christ's representatives, be reconciled to God. God calls the one, caused the one who didn't know sin to be sin for our sake so that through him we could become the righteousness of God.

00:18:12.73
Nathan Pile
Since we work together with him, we are also begging you not to receive the grace of God in vain. He says, I listened to you at the right time and I helped you on the day of salvation.

00:18:24.79
Nathan Pile
Look, now is the right time. Look, now is the day of salvation. We don't give anyone any reason to be offended about anything so that our ministry won't be criticized.

00:18:37.08
Nathan Pile
Instead, we commend ourselves as ministers of God in every way. We did this with our great endurance through problems, disasters, and stressful situations.

00:18:47.64
Nathan Pile
We went through beatings, imprisonments, and riots. We experienced hard work, sleepless nights, and hunger. We displayed purity, knowledge, patience, and generosity. We served with the Holy Spirit, genuine love, telling the truth, and God's power.

00:19:05.08
Nathan Pile
We carried the weapons of righteousness in our right hand and our left hand. We were treated with honor and dishonor and with verbal abuse and good evaluation. We were seen as both fake and real, as unknown and well-known, as dying.

00:19:21.59
Nathan Pile
And look, we are alive. We were seen as punished, but not killed, as going through pain, but always happy, as poor, but making many rich and as having nothing, but owning everything.

00:19:40.17
Nathan Pile
Kevin toward what is God calling you in this text?

00:19:44.95
Kevin Shock
um There are some of the other verses that I see here that really speak to me in how and what it means to be a minister of the gospel.

00:19:57.11
Kevin Shock
To be, um in this translation, Paul, it's rendered Christ's christ representative, but in others, it's ambassadors of Christ. um And that is that you, I,

00:20:14.98
Kevin Shock
don't shy away from the places where reconciliation is really needed. um And ah we commend ourselves, I mean, I'm just quoting Paul here, we commend ourselves as ministers of God in every way.

00:20:28.54
Kevin Shock
We did this with our great endurance through problems, disasters, stressful situations. It's easy for a minister of God to avoid all of those things. We went through beatings, imprisonments, riots. I don't think that I'm going to encounter any of that, but at this point in the world, I don't know.

00:20:44.57
Kevin Shock
um We experienced hard work, sleepless nights, and hunger. i I know that that's already been a part of ministry for me, and and probably for you too, and probably for lots of people. But in the midst of all of that, and Paul doesn't say but here, we displayed purity, knowledge, patience, and generosity.

00:21:05.24
Kevin Shock
We served with the Holy Spirit, genuine love, telling the truth, and God's power. um You don't shy away from the places where reconciliation is needed. And when you go there, you don't use the same weapons that those um dangerous places or ah or harsh people use.

00:21:27.74
Kevin Shock
You use what God has given you. Purity, knowledge, patience, generosity, genuine love, truth, and God's power. um

00:21:40.82
Kevin Shock
That's, I don't know, that's a, again, again like most things, what, what is this reading calling me into? ah This is not, this is not easy stuff.

00:21:53.52
Kevin Shock
This is not something that I figure out how to do overnight and just start doing it. This is stuff that takes all life long to really get halfway decent at.

00:21:57.86
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:22:06.94
Nathan Pile
Well, and, and, um and it really goes back to your first reflection to a little bit of, as we, as we live into right relationship, it's right relationship with each other.

00:22:22.78
Nathan Pile
Like God frees us for that right, that right relationship. And a lot of that, I'm going to call it the second paragraph just because of the way it's put together here in the text as we're looking at it. A lot of that is, is language around that. Though although I did this time through, the thing that that did stick out to me a little bit was, was that third verse. We don't give anyone any reason to be offended about anything so that our, our ministry won't be criticized.

00:22:52.70
Nathan Pile
and, And I guess the the longer I do this... In this, I mean wrestling with scripture and and and, and finding ways to proclaim it.

00:23:04.86
Nathan Pile
um I think absolutely there's going to be times that we're offending people.

00:23:13.98
Nathan Pile
um

00:23:14.58
Kevin Shock
Oh, yeah, but I have thoughts on that. I want to hear what the rest of what you have to say, but I have thoughts on that for sure.

00:23:19.70
Nathan Pile
Well, I just, that, that they're seeking to try not to offend And yet I think as a part of, of human society and culture, we're really good at at um what would be the, the right term, essentially hearing what we want to hear and then using it to our advantage and maybe forgetting the things that are uncomfortable for us.

00:23:49.40
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:23:49.46
Nathan Pile
And so as oftentimes as, as a proclaimer or as, as one who engages with scripture, um right relationship means both, you know, this gift that God has given us means, you know, this gets into your third question a little bit, but how do we, how do we live this gift of grace of love and forgiveness um in such a way that, that, that um doesn't bring offense. And yet,

00:24:25.08
Nathan Pile
ah because our of our humanness, I think we do, that we will encounter offense, especially as we seek help others be free.

00:24:31.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, no, I, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, but I really, I really take apart the words of Paul here.

00:24:46.33
Kevin Shock
And I think it's important. Um, "we" don't give anyone any reason to be offended. That doesn't mean that offense doesn't come from their interaction with the gospel.

00:24:59.55
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:25:00.25
Kevin Shock
and Because you see down at the bottom, ah obviously there are people who are offended by what they're saying.

00:25:05.99
Nathan Pile
Sure. Sure.

00:25:07.54
Kevin Shock
But they themselves don't give anyone any reason to be offended um so that so that their ministry won't be criticized. If people if people have something to criticize, it should be their it should be that they're criticizing the gospel.

00:25:22.90
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:25:23.42
Kevin Shock
And if they're criticizing the gospel, well, then that has nothing to do with the person who's delivering the gospel. That has to do with their, their offense before God. and, And that's different.

00:25:35.45
Kevin Shock
but like That's why I appreciate the way that this translation writes this.

00:25:41.61
Nathan Pile
pulls this out.

00:25:41.62
Kevin Shock
um because I, you know, I think of, So I think about the situation.

00:25:41.96
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:25:45.76
Kevin Shock
Nathan, I go to... um I go to congregations and I will go to more congregations um as time goes on where I know that there are people who are so far apart from me politically, but I still have to i still have to proclaim the gospel to them.

00:26:04.92
Kevin Shock
The gospel, not, not fluffy news, good news. And so I think of the last congregation before we recorded this, the last congregation I was in was a congregation I had never been to before.

00:26:20.08
Kevin Shock
A congregation that is deep in one of our more conservative counties, a congregation that's full of you know laborers, working class people, which you know like I'm not, I don't wanna make any assumptions, but guaranteed.

00:26:38.68
Kevin Shock
there were people in that congregation who disagree with me politically.

00:26:44.14
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:26:46.58
Kevin Shock
And I was going to that congregation after a week where our government was running so close to the line of functioning unconstitutionally.

00:27:00.41
Kevin Shock
um And really just, ah I mean, you know, I'm, I went in there and I talked about all of the temptations and evil things that human beings can do to one another.

00:27:18.52
Kevin Shock
And I talked about it in terminology that I know that there are people in there who would put two and two together because I was naming things that were headlines in the news that the previous week.

00:27:32.57
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:27:33.98
Kevin Shock
And then I talked about what we are called to do as representatives of Christ. And it was, it was all, everything I preached was based right in scripture. I was pulling pieces right out of scripture. And that's one thing I talked about because it was a, it was a John the Baptist text too, um, that, you know, things haven't changed much in the last 2000 years. We have different ways to be different venues through which we express our anger toward one another.

00:28:00.12
Kevin Shock
But, um, But there were oppressive governments back then and there are oppressive governments now. There were people who stayed on the margins because they were of their fear of being detained and there were people who stay on the margins because their fear of being detained now.

00:28:13.85
Kevin Shock
yeah I mean, I was, I was putting all that stuff out there and said, you know, that this is this is what this is what the word through scripture is calling us toward. And I didn't have one person upset with me afterwards.

00:28:28.34
Kevin Shock
Now, if, if I got up there into the pulpit and said, can you believe all this crap that Trump has done this past week? I could have gotten to the same point.

00:28:39.21
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:28:40.31
Kevin Shock
But it's a different way of doing it. I didn't, I look at that and I did not give anyone any reason to be offended with me about anything that I was saying so that they could receive the message of the gospel.

00:28:54.93
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:28:54.97
Kevin Shock
And I don't always do that perfectly and I don't always do it well, but frankly, I think this past weekend, I think I did it all right.

00:29:02.47
Nathan Pile
Sure. But there's also, so as you're prepping a sermon, around this kind of a message, there's a significant amount of work that you put in to remove, to remove yourself and your politics from that message.

00:29:15.38
Kevin Shock
Significant. I, um, I, I, Yeah, and that's where I don't always do a great job.

00:29:27.35
Nathan Pile
Sure, but, but um, my, my point is that we typically, as human beings, we don't, the rest of us don't necessarily do that preparation. we just launch into conversations where we're at.

00:29:41.77
Nathan Pile
Right. yeah And that's the, that's.

00:29:42.71
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we're on the comment pages on Facebook, we're not doing that preparation.

00:29:46.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:47.38
Kevin Shock
No, no, we're not.

00:29:47.60
Nathan Pile
Right. Absolutely. right. So, and so, we don't have that.

00:29:51.35
Kevin Shock
ah

00:29:53.01
Nathan Pile
We don't have, we don't have the patience for each other or we don't make the patience for each other, um, to, to be able to do that.

00:29:59.13
Kevin Shock
We don't make the patients for each other. Yeah.

00:30:04.36
Nathan Pile
And so, um,

00:30:05.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:30:06.75
Nathan Pile
There's ah and and absolutely i wholeheartedly agree here with your interpretation of what Paul is sharing with us. um But again, I think it's for us as, as today's um, as today's interpreters and and proclaimers of the gospel.

00:30:29.18
Nathan Pile
We do need to be thinking about how we teach this. how we talk about this.

00:30:38.07
Nathan Pile
you know Again, proclamation is one thing, it's usually a one-way street,

00:30:43.54
Kevin Shock
It is, yeah.

00:30:44.47
Nathan Pile
um which gets even, even more to the point of, it's not just about what I think, I, Nathan think, or either whoever the proclaimer is think.

00:30:55.39
Nathan Pile
It, it has to be done carefully um and and with discernment and and practice and And so, but all of us are are called to be disciples, right?

00:30:59.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:09.57
Nathan Pile
All of us are called to be

00:31:11.41
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:31:13.37
Nathan Pile
to be learners in the way. And, and again, Paul is Paul, so we've talked about him, that he's, he's not the most humble character.

00:31:25.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah. in his own writing.

00:31:27.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:31:29.24
Nathan Pile
And so, but being able to kind of say, hey, these are the things that I've suffered or we've suffered as we've tried to proclaim this message, but also to to your point of there is a, a struggle for him of being able to proclaim this message in such a way that they, they let the gospel speak for the gospel.

00:31:36.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:31:53.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And I think, and I think that's vital to, to what we do.

00:31:56.50
Nathan Pile
it, It is, but but recognizing also the other side of this is that so oftentimes when we as human beings respond to the hearing of that gospel, sometimes it's not, you know, their response also would need to have the same reflection as the proclamation part of it would happen to be.

00:31:57.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:32:12.94
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:32:13.53
Nathan Pile
Otherwise, it just becomes a, you you know, a judgment and a lashing out, which is very typical in in human society, that it that there's not a,

00:32:13.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

00:32:27.58
Nathan Pile
The gospel you know the gospel ah, causes us to, what's a, you know, you, what I could say the go- the gospel causes us to lash out um because we there's something about it that makes us feel uncomfortable,

00:32:39.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:32:45.27
Nathan Pile
um

00:32:47.16
Kevin Shock
Sure. Yeah.

00:32:48.09
Nathan Pile
threatened maybe is ah as a way.

00:32:48.91
Kevin Shock
Yep. Yep.

00:32:52.15
Nathan Pile
ah to our current way of life or the way that we function. And so why not tear it down as opposed to trying to seek out how does this message call me towards reconciliation?

00:33:07.01
Nathan Pile
How does it call me towards living in right relationship?

00:33:08.18
Kevin Shock
Right, right, right.

00:33:11.35
Nathan Pile
oh

00:33:11.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah, and, and, and I think, I think a lot of modern preachers have had that experience where, you know, when someone hears me preach, they're going to hear they're going to hear strains of anti-capitalism ah because that's, I mean, that's who I am.

00:33:21.19
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:33:23.32
Kevin Shock
But that's also partially who I am because of my, my study of scripture and, and the way that my faith has informed me.

00:33:28.50
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:33:30.90
Kevin Shock
Because, because the, the economy, and by economy I don't mean just financial, but the, but the way that the kingdom of God works is so obviously different than the, than the economies of the world.

00:33:46.81
Kevin Shock
And, and um yeah, we, no one can read scripture and think, well, I better put money, more money away for retirement.

00:33:58.65
Nathan Pile
yeah

00:33:58.71
Kevin Shock
Like that's, that's, it's just, it's not in there. It's not in there, but that's something that is like, so part of who we are as a people that we don't even question it.

00:34:01.61
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Right.

00:34:05.43
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:34:08.51
Kevin Shock
That's the thing. um But so I am sure, I know, I, well, I, yeah. Okay. I'll, I'll give, I'll give one example. um I had ah had a phone call come to me one time. This was years and years and years ago.

00:34:24.63
Kevin Shock
Someone who was upset with me, who had been coming to my church, who was also inebriated and had some other issues that he was dealing with. So I tried to give a little grace there, um but, but came at me at this phone call, accused me of being a pacifist.

00:34:44.47
Kevin Shock
It said, when has peace ever worked in this world? And my, I can't remember exactly how I responded to it. At that point, I was probably just listening and letting him rant and not.

00:34:57.17
Nathan Pile
Sure.

00:34:57.42
Kevin Shock
But the response in my head was, when have we ever tried it? um like we never try peace. So, but, but I had never preached a political sermon about peace. I had never preached an anti-war. I mean, not anti-war in the sense of, I mean, I probably, I probably did say anti-war things, but, but nothing that didn't come out of scripture. And it, it just felt like this accusation that, that it was unfounded. And then as I thought about it, thought, well, maybe it's not unfounded.

00:35:30.52
Kevin Shock
Maybe he's just upset with scripture.

00:35:32.87
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:34.71
Kevin Shock
And, and, and that's fine. if, If he wanted to be upset with scripture, what, what I don't like is that he quit coming to our church. And I don't know if he goes to a church, but you know, I, I've seen on, we're not connected on Facebook anymore, but, but we were for a little bit and I saw more, you know, scriptural things popping up, but you know, like,

00:35:56.82
Kevin Shock
lots of ah verses from Proverbs along with the American flag and a bald eagle next to them. And I thought this is just not, like, he wasn't getting the theology he wanted from me.

00:36:08.30
Nathan Pile
Mmm.

00:36:08.73
Kevin Shock
So I get that.

00:36:08.79
Nathan Pile
So he went and shopped for his own. Went shopped for

00:36:10.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he went and shopped for his own. Yeah, yeah. He's constructing his own. but, But his own looks very different from what Paul's theology is.

00:36:14.60
Nathan Pile
His own.

00:36:17.88
Kevin Shock
So that's, yeah.

00:36:18.16
Nathan Pile
Sure. Sure. Sure.

00:36:20.73
Kevin Shock
and, And again, okay, so I've given two examples of... ah um me like kind of preaching the right thing. One place where I did it wrong in the not so distant past. um I was in a doing a consultation with two congregations who were planning to leave the ELCA and I was so frustrated with them in their, in their like, um

00:36:41.80
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:36:44.98
Kevin Shock
giving into propaganda and lies about the ELCA and about about queer people and about all this you know all this other stuff where I, I lost my cool at the point where someone said to me, you know I was up front at a microphone in front of 60 people, maybe, I don't know, maybe not quite that, 40.

00:36:48.72
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

00:37:03.16
Kevin Shock
forty um And someone said to me, well, we don't, we don't want any drag queens coming to this congregation. And my gut response was,

00:37:15.32
Kevin Shock
What makes you think a drag queen would want to come to this congregation?

00:37:20.82
Kevin Shock
So that was political, Kevin. I did, I would, I wouldn't say that I did. So I did not display purity, knowledge, patience, and generosity in that comment.

00:37:33.46
Nathan Pile
So you actually said that comment out loud in that space?

00:37:33.67
Kevin Shock
And it didn't. I did. I did. I did. it, I did. I was very frustrated. And you're laughing.

00:37:40.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:37:41.26
Kevin Shock
You're laughing.

00:37:41.43
Nathan Pile
I'm not...

00:37:41.74
Kevin Shock
But as soon as it came out of my mouth, the spirit said to me, Kevin, that was not the right thing to say.

00:37:43.67
Nathan Pile
You're like, uh... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:47.61
Kevin Shock
It wasn't the right thing to say.

00:37:48.66
Nathan Pile
But again, it's our, it's our own...

00:37:48.95
Kevin Shock
and, and, And you might not be you might not be like too shocked to find out that they did not stay in the Allegheny Senate or the ELCA.

00:37:51.00
Nathan Pile
I

00:37:57.37
Kevin Shock
But I didn't think at that point, I didn't think they were going to anyway.

00:38:00.57
Nathan Pile
Right. Well, and...

00:38:00.95
Kevin Shock
there, there were, There were some people there.

00:38:01.29
Nathan Pile
and We're still human in this, right? We're still human in this.

00:38:04.95
Kevin Shock
We are. There were some people there that I think I, I, I could have shepherded to another ELCA congregation, but, but I don't know if I lost them at that point. I don't know. you know Anyway.

00:38:19.80
Kevin Shock
Bottom line is I'm not perfect.

00:38:20.09
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I don't, and I don't laugh. Like, it's a hard, like, I'm not laughing at you, my friend.

00:38:24.28
Kevin Shock
No, I know. I know.

00:38:25.13
Nathan Pile
It's, it's a hard

00:38:25.16
Kevin Shock
I know.

00:38:28.33
Nathan Pile
interpersonal relationships in our age is hard um and harder than I think even now, you know, if I go back too far, I'm a kid.

00:38:33.12
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:38:40.61
Nathan Pile
And so it, it, it doesn't seem like it's, it's a true, you know, it's a true assessment.

00:38:41.78
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:45.85
Nathan Pile
so But I'm thinking about those years when I was in my 20s. And so like, we had to be we had to be sensitive and careful about what we said. But now seems like an even it's a bigger, it's a bigger ask to say, Hey, we want you to be in this space.

00:39:07.03
Nathan Pile
And at least in my mind, um, when we, when, when we're talking in highly conflictive topics,

00:39:16.50
Kevin Shock
Mm

00:39:18.55
Nathan Pile
like my own personal need to have been well-rested, well-prepared, um,

00:39:23.41
Kevin Shock
hmm. Yeah.

00:39:25.11
Nathan Pile
you know, calm, less stress. There's going to be stress in the moment leading up to this event, you know, to the conversation, to all of that, but everything else i need to have spent time. and And right now, at least for Nathan, and i don't know if this is true for other people right now, I find it really hard to find time to do that because I'm so busy trying to do 2,700 other things.

00:39:54.47
Nathan Pile
Um, and so, but it's like, it's what, like if I, if I'm sitting and I'm rational and I'm, and I'm okay, this is what I have to do to prepare myself for this difficult conversation with others.

00:39:54.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Okay.

00:40:10.89
Nathan Pile
But the, the ticking of the clock just makes you kind of shortchange it, I guess. Um, at least in my life, I shortchange it. I try not to, but, but it does happen. And then you walk into a situation and the, my, my emotions take over in that moment.

00:40:33.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:40:33.62
Nathan Pile
And I laugh because I see myself saying the same thing. what, what do you think but, What do you think a drag queen is looking for in a congregation? You think it's this church? Really?

00:40:48.48
Kevin Shock
Spoiler alert. It's not.

00:40:51.16
Nathan Pile
So, um but, but in- inclusion is important on both sides.

00:40:54.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:40:57.24
Nathan Pile
And so how do we how do we talk about it? You know, because, because we want to grow, cause we want to grow where right?

00:41:00.54
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah.

00:41:03.62
Nathan Pile
it Those of us that that don't, when we don't understand each other, can be it could be Democrats and Republicans. It can be,

00:41:14.39
Nathan Pile
um

00:41:18.30
Nathan Pile
you know, the the spectrum of gender when we, that, that level of uncomfortableness puts a little bit of fear in there not wanting to say the wrong thing. and and that all of those insecurities then become kind of easy kindling for a fire if we're not careful.

00:41:42.56
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:41:44.86
Nathan Pile
So, um,

00:41:45.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:46.97
Nathan Pile
And when I say fire, like just an argument, ah, ah a a conflict when I say fire.

00:41:54.14
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:41:55.08
Nathan Pile
so, So it's that kind of being able to kind of wrestle with that.

00:41:55.86
Kevin Shock
yeah

00:42:02.71
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so...

00:42:04.21
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, and you, you said inclusion is important. in, I, you, You didn't say on both sides, or maybe you did. I don't know. but ah, and, And though I agree with that, I also agree that there's a, there's a way to prioritize making safe space for all people.

00:42:19.26
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. oh

00:42:19.49
Kevin Shock
It involves excluding some people from the table whenever they whenever they have proven that they are they need to be excluded from the table.

00:42:20.15
Nathan Pile
Oh.

00:42:28.02
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:42:28.45
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. if you If you're not willing to say that everybody deserves a safe space.

00:42:35.73
Kevin Shock
Right.

00:42:37.69
Nathan Pile
There's not right when, when you're willing to, to, um When we're able to say we have the same values, then we can sit at the same table.

00:42:47.73
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and and And then we have to figure out what our core values are because they might, our core values might differ from all of the, like if we have a comprehensive checklist of these are all the reasons why I don't want to sit down and talk to this person.

00:42:58.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:43:01.34
Kevin Shock
Some of those reasons aren't going to be fair.

00:43:04.29
Nathan Pile
Do

00:43:04.44
Kevin Shock
um But the other thing that, um

00:43:10.01
Kevin Shock
well, there was another thing and now it went out of my head. That's okay. That's all right.

00:43:17.46
Kevin Shock
Yeah, why don't we ah why don't we look at it a third time?

00:43:19.16
Nathan Pile
it third time.

00:43:21.02
Kevin Shock
ah

00:43:21.71
Nathan Pile
yep

00:43:21.94
Kevin Shock
There's a lot of rabbit holes we could go down here. All right, from 2 Corinthians ah chapters 5 and 6.

00:43:30.97
Kevin Shock
We beg you as Christ's representatives, be reconciled to God. God caused the one who didn't know sin to be sin for our sake so that through him we could become the righteousness of God. There's a Pauline sentence.

00:43:45.08
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:43:46.04
Kevin Shock
since we together with, Since we work together with him, we are also begging you not to receive the grace of God in vain. He says, I listened to you at the right time and I helped you on the day of salvation.

00:43:56.89
Kevin Shock
Look, now is the right time. Look, now is the day of salvation. We don't give anyone any reason to be offended about anything so that our ministry won't be criticized. Instead, we commend ourselves as ministers of God in every way.

00:44:10.17
Kevin Shock
We did this with our great endurance through problems, disasters, and stressful situations. We went through beatings, imprisonments, and riots. We experienced hard work, sleepless nights, and hunger. We displayed purity, knowledge, patience, and generosity.

00:44:23.58
Kevin Shock
We served with the Holy Spirit, genuine love, telling the truth, and God's power. We carried the weapons of righteousness in our right hand and our left hand. We were treated with honor and dishonor and with verbal abuse and good evaluation.

00:44:37.59
Kevin Shock
We were seen as both fake and real, as unknown and well-known, as dying. And look, we are alive. We were seen as punished but not killed, as going through pain but always happy, as poor but making many rich, and as having nothing but owning everything.

00:44:56.18
Kevin Shock
Nathan. How does God's salvation change the way you see the world?

00:45:02.50
Nathan Pile
Well, I think, um, as if God makes us right relationship, if through Christ we are made to be the right relationship of God, boy, that, that drastically changes how I live Monday through Sunday.

00:45:27.95
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:45:30.14
Nathan Pile
Um,

00:45:33.59
Nathan Pile
and, and it, And it means, I'm even hesitant to say it, it means that I'm, I'm constantly striving

00:45:51.61
Nathan Pile
To,

00:45:55.22
Nathan Pile
to build better relationships.

00:46:00.92
Nathan Pile
And if that's the case,

00:46:05.56
Nathan Pile
Boy, I'm gonna, like, I'm sitting here as a Lutheran Christian pastor who serves in a camp context where there's thousands of kids and adults that come through this property. But

00:46:21.24
Nathan Pile
like I have to make sure, I have to think about if this gift of God of, of righteousness is given to me,

00:46:33.56
Nathan Pile
every relationship comes under, not, not under a microscope be-, because of what I have to do, but, but what because of what I'm called to do.

00:46:47.61
Nathan Pile
Because I've, I've been freed and transformed by this forgiveness and, and love.

00:46:53.43
Nathan Pile
everything, and all of these little relate. And so like, like it's a little daunting to even say and consider cause it seems overwhelming and maybe I just want to go back to bed and pull the covers over my head.

00:47:04.59
Nathan Pile
Um, but, but, um, this, this, this right relationship that I've been, we've been given by God,

00:47:04.79
Kevin Shock
Sure.

00:47:16.41
Nathan Pile
um It means that every person I see, it means that congregation um that I could lose my temper with.

00:47:26.42
Kevin Shock
Mhmm.

00:47:26.65
Nathan Pile
I also, and as you did admit, and you know, like sometimes we just get lost in it. We get lost in our own, and our, and our own judgment and passion and that then hurts.

00:47:35.92
Kevin Shock
Yeah, absolutely.

00:47:45.56
Nathan Pile
We go too far. in our own, that, that other half of us that is, that is still sinful and, and, and, and,

00:47:48.48
Kevin Shock
Yep.

00:47:53.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:47:56.76
Nathan Pile
and self-serving. you know we we martin Martin Luther wasn't perfect and we as the Lutheran Church have had to kind of um name some of the things that he has said over time that um we believe are in error, specifically about

00:48:08.49
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:48:17.82
Nathan Pile
our siblings of the Jewish faith.

00:48:22.62
Nathan Pile
But that is his self, you know, that is his humanness and, and selfishness lived out. He just doesn't understand why they don't understand it. and, And oftentimes that's my, my Achilles heel is, why don't you get this?

00:48:38.58
Nathan Pile
um But there's something in, you know, as I'm talking with somebody else that I have a different, political ideology or inclusion inclusion value than trying to help them understand my perspective. I get wrapped up in my own passion and desire and forget about trying to communicate with them where they're at.

00:49:07.98
Nathan Pile
Seeking that right rel-, like again, God makes us right. And, and it God makes us live in right relationship because of Christ.

00:49:21.49
Nathan Pile
How do I then make that a part of Monday to Sunday for myself?

00:49:27.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:49:29.37
Nathan Pile
So it absolutely changes it. But, but I think if I'm really going honestly do this differently, it means I'm going to have to take a couple of years and really reorient

00:49:42.14
Nathan Pile
my sch-, my schedule, my time, so that I have the time and patience

00:49:48.92
Kevin Shock
It does, Nathan.

00:49:50.10
Nathan Pile
to love and forgive in those moments.

00:49:51.77
Kevin Shock
it does yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep,

00:49:54.36
Nathan Pile
And that's the thing that seems like, wow, that's really out there, God. That's a big ask.

00:50:00.77
Kevin Shock
yep, yep, yep

00:50:03.22
Nathan Pile
So that's, that's what your question brings up for me.

00:50:03.53
Kevin Shock
yep

00:50:06.74
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:50:07.26
Kevin Shock
yeah it's what, that's what my question brings up for me too, um I, I, um, I remember the thing that I had forgotten right at the end of the last question is was brought up as I was reading through this again. And that is, you had mentioned answering the last question that, you know, you,

00:50:28.60
Kevin Shock
you wanna live in these right relationships with people, but when you have 27 other things to do and you're trying to get your to-do list done and all that stuff, you don't you don't find yourself having the time or the energy or the or the wherewithal to build these relationships.

00:50:42.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah, um this, this ah how does God's salvation change the way I see the world?

00:50:42.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:48.57
Kevin Shock
ah Building relationships has to be top priority. and And we can give so much lip service to that. But that that what that means is if there are barriers to me building right relationships, I got to tear them down in my life.

00:51:04.41
Kevin Shock
And we live in a we live in a society that tells us that right relationships is bottom of the pile.

00:51:11.30
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:51:12.99
Kevin Shock
Right relationships has is, is antithetical to productivity.

00:51:20.47
Kevin Shock
And, um, and you know, that I was just thinking, uh, well, so ah a personal reflection on this ah right now, as we record this, I'm right in the middle of transition time.

00:51:31.26
Kevin Shock
I'm in two days, I'm on vacation for a week. And there's part of me that is like scared be on belief by that because so much can happen in eight days that I don't want to be off email and stuff like that, but I'm going to be off email, because on February 1st, I have to hit the ground, not running, hit the ground.

00:51:43.35
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:51:50.87
Kevin Shock
in a, in a position of being able to treat everyone with grace and love.

00:52:06.17
Kevin Shock
That has to be at the top of the list for me as the Bishop of the Allegheny Synod. and um And I'm also, so I'm two days away from vacation, but I'm also on about day 12 of working straight.

00:52:20.50
Kevin Shock
like I haven't had a day off and that's because of transition stuff. And it's all, you know, I look at my schedule and some of it I say, um well, you know, I'm, I'm in, in a few weeks, I'm going to have some assistants in the office and they're, they're the ones who are going to be doing this stuff. So, so I can do it now. I can take care of it. ah But, you know, and for me, when I say not having a day off, I don't mean, well, I've worked an hour on my day off. No, I've worked like six hours on my day off. Um,

00:52:48.95
Kevin Shock
and, and, And the days that aren't my days off, I've you know, I've worked multiple 12, 13 hour days in the past couple of weeks. um Like I'm frazzled, but yesterday I had one meeting via Zoom in the morning and I had emails that I needed to get to I spent a good part of the day, I was working, but I was, I would, I was doing what I would call it soft working.

00:53:14.17
Kevin Shock
I was taking time, I wasn't, I was, I was taking time to respond to emails, I was taking time to respond to people who were in some kind of crisis or needed, you know, like had, but, but I kept telling myself throughout the day, Kevin, the rest of this can wait.

00:53:30.58
Kevin Shock
The rest of this can wait. The rest of this can wait because I knew that I'd, in the next couple of days, I'm going to be, I'm going to have some meetings and such that I'm going to have to be in top form.

00:53:43.19
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:53:43.38
Kevin Shock
And if I'm not taking some time, Like the thing that I realized is that, you know, I thought, well, if I'm taking an easy day, I'll probably take a nap. I didn't even take a nap yesterday. Like I was working all day long, but I was working at a pace that made sense.

00:53:58.04
Kevin Shock
ah and, And with the priority of I'm going to make sure that these people who I'm interacting with today know the best side of me.

00:54:09.62
Kevin Shock
and um And I was able to accomplish that. and I, And honestly, I feel a lot more rested today. have I have some two more busy days, but, but I'm going to get there. And, and on February 1st, my goal is to be the the the kindness, the kindest, most truthful person that I can be when I step into the office.

00:54:34.84
Kevin Shock
I think we just have to prioritize it. That's how God's salvation changes the way I see the world. that That has be our priority.

00:54:39.93
Nathan Pile
Well, and I think, and it's a powerful statement, I think for us to, you know, as you as our leader, how do we let that also permeate our congregations, our individual lives, like it big it I think it changes the church and, and, and I've had lots of little kind of, you and I've talked about this at, um, at times too, but I've talked recently with people saying, it you know, it feels like we, the church, uh, we as God's people, there's some really big, hard decisions ahead of us.

00:55:01.17
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

00:55:15.86
Nathan Pile
But if we're, if we trust the spirit and make those decisions, it's going to drastically change. the way the church feels and and engages in the world, which I think is what the world needs.

00:55:32.02
Nathan Pile
Because if grace becomes the the most important thing, if that relationship building becomes the most important thing, boy, it, it can't help but change

00:55:49.62
Nathan Pile
communities of faith.

00:55:53.29
Kevin Shock
Yep, yep. Yeah, and and I take it seriously. um i'm learning to take it seriously as a bishop, I'm but I'm taking, I take it seriously as Kevin, as just the guy who goes through life. Because I, I think that the more that we have leaders in the church, and by leaders, I don't mean bishops, pastors, deacons, lay worship leaders. I do mean those people. But I mean people who are simply, people who show up for church on Sunday morning. and are involved in the life of the congregation, are involved in their communities, if we have more people who make it top priority to live in right relationship with one another, that stuff permeates.

00:56:32.73
Kevin Shock
when we're, When we're overwhelmed, when we're worn out, when we're not able to care for ourselves, when we're when then anger gets the best of us, then we speak off the cuff, then we then we do all of these things.

00:56:32.77
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:56:45.49
Kevin Shock
And anger's not a bad thing. I, Like I, I said, when we let anger get the best of us, When we're not able to give the best of us, that is contagious as well. And that's what we see in this world today. We have so many leaders who don't give a flying flip if they live in right relationship with people.

00:57:04.41
Kevin Shock
And it has filtered down to let everyone else think that this isn't important either. I can, I can talk about my neighbors. I can refer to my neighbors as illegals. I can, I can look at someone getting shot in the face in the street and say they probably deserved it.

00:57:21.05
Kevin Shock
How? Like, how do you get to, I don't understand how people get to that point, except I do know how people get to that point because other people let them get to that point and don't call them out on it.

00:57:30.50
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

00:57:33.53
Kevin Shock
And yeah, but, but we can, but we're like you said, it's not what we have to do, but what we're called to do. We're called, we're called to live differently. We're called to live differently and we're called to see the world differently.

00:57:53.98
Kevin Shock
um

00:57:54.94
Nathan Pile
Good stuff, buddy.

00:57:55.10
Kevin Shock
You did answer that, you did answer that question, right?

00:57:57.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah, I did it first.

00:57:59.96
Kevin Shock
Oh, that's right. You did it first, right? right Right. You let us see where we got.

00:58:03.93
Nathan Pile
And because my answer was so good, you copied it. Because my answer was so good.

00:58:07.46
Kevin Shock
That's true. That's true.

00:58:10.33
Kevin Shock
Yep. That's right.

00:58:11.22
Nathan Pile
ah

00:58:11.50
Kevin Shock
That's right. I just copied your answer. I did.

00:58:14.23
Nathan Pile
You copied it and then made it better.

00:58:17.34
Kevin Shock
No, no, no, no.

00:58:17.50
Nathan Pile
So, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's okay.

00:58:18.18
Kevin Shock
No, I just copied it. didn't make it better.

00:58:20.16
Nathan Pile
all right.

00:58:20.26
Kevin Shock
I didn't make it better.

00:58:21.01
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it's all right.

00:58:21.26
Kevin Shock
I just gave my spin on it.

00:58:22.07
Nathan Pile
No. Some additional texts um to keep you engaged this week if you want to keep wrestling with God's word. Joel 2, verses 1 and 2, and verses 12 to 17. Return to the Lord your God. Again, that idea of reconciliation, that, that repent um language that we talked about early. Isaiah through fast that God chooses.

00:58:52.70
Nathan Pile
Psalm 51 verses one through 17 have mercy on me. Oh God, according to your steadfast love and Matthew chapter six verses one to six and 16 to 21, the practice of faith.

00:59:06.52
Nathan Pile
Um, again, those are the, ah the additional texts for the Ash Wednesday, um, service, uh, as always, Kevin, I appreciate our time of, of sharing and reflection and, um,

00:59:21.85
Nathan Pile
Again, this this passage has given me some fodder to kind of chew on about how do we how do we make relationship, not just not just say it, but how do we make relationship the priority?

00:59:37.54
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:59:39.70
Nathan Pile
and relationship building the priority.

00:59:41.60
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

00:59:41.94
Nathan Pile
So, so thanks for, for that conversation and blessings as you make this transition and and become our our leader, um guiding us in, in some new and exciting ways.

00:59:42.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

00:59:57.72
Nathan Pile
um

00:59:58.49
Kevin Shock
Well, thanks. I hope that we can all do this leading together.

01:00:04.92
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I know that's a part of who you are, that you'll, you lead and you ask us to, to lead with you, walk along with you.

01:00:06.17
Kevin Shock
Yep.

01:00:13.66
Nathan Pile
And so we look forward to, to where this goes. um And for you listening, we hope to... to Hear your reflections. I did think about this at the beginning, but we were so all over the place. We're getting ready to start Lent, and Kevin and I will be in a, Bishop Kevin and I will be in a, are leading Lenten study on Tuesday nights. You can go to Sequanota's website for those Zoom links on Tuesday evenings at 7 p.m. And why the Lutheran voice matters today. is kind of what we'll be talking about. We're going to be using the small catechism and a book. So if you go to the Sequanota website, tells you the book. We invite you get the book ordered. And the book is excellent. So there is reading that needs to be done week to week.

01:01:05.75
Nathan Pile
But there's going to be so much to talk about. It'll be Kevin and I's challenge to keep it to 90 minutes.

01:01:12.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's right.

01:01:13.11
Nathan Pile
ah So, but we encourage you to ah join us as a part of that time.

01:01:13.70
Kevin Shock
That's right.

01:01:17.91
Nathan Pile
And if that doesn't work, continue to, to listen to the podcast and share your reflections. We give thanks to Sam's reflection that she sent in this week.

01:01:26.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:01:26.95
Nathan Pile
Kevin, did you say anything there?

01:01:27.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. That's what when yeah you reminded me there that Sam sent us. ah Thanks so much for your email, Sam. um it It really um having a profound effect on us. and And Sam tells a story about how her daughter wasn't being treated well by another student in her school and, uh, and the, Sam and, and her daughter talked about it and, uh, and, um, kindness prevailed.

01:01:59.38
Kevin Shock
well I'll just say that.

01:01:59.78
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

01:02:00.78
Kevin Shock
Um, it's a, it's a wonderful story of how, um, of how honestly prioritizing right relationship with people, um, is, is, is the right end and the most helpful thing to do.

01:02:13.53
Kevin Shock
Um, Sam ah writes, I'm just going to quote a little bit from her email. ah This is her. Lately, when my heart wells up with sadness and despair, thinking about the terror that seems to be ravaging every part of the world, I find myself settling on this answer.

01:02:29.21
Kevin Shock
God does not want to crush or destroy the evil in this world. God wants to enter it, understand it, and transform it. And I think that that is a, this is Kevin again. I think that, ah I think that's a, I think that's a deep theological ah conclusion to come to.

01:02:49.34
Kevin Shock
And um yeah, so thanks, Sam.

01:02:49.55
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

01:02:53.70
Kevin Shock
And, you know, at some point, whenever you're like, Your vocation of being a spouse and a mom is not taking up, you know, and a farmer is not taking up all of your life.

01:03:05.61
Kevin Shock
Let's talk about candidacy, I guess. I don't

01:03:09.63
Kevin Shock
That's what church people are supposed to say. You, you have a pastoral heart and it shows in your mothering and in the way that you are present in your congregation too. and, And I'm grateful for that. I know that other people are too. We're grateful that you're a part of this Tend nation, as Nathan says. So thanks for your reflection, Sam.

01:03:29.24
Nathan Pile
Yeah, thanks for your reflection, Sam, and sharing with us. And we invite others to share those with your, your thoughts and reflections with us as well on social media or on, ah in, in email.

01:03:42.65
Nathan Pile
We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

01:03:46.71
Kevin Shock
And peace.