S4 Episode 24: John 20:19-31

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What will make you believe?

Additional texts:

Acts 2:14a, 22-32

Psalm 16

1 Peter 1:3-9

Provisional Readings:

Exodus 15:1-11, 19-21

Psalm 111

Transcript

00:02.50
Nathan Pile
Oh, Kevin, what a day. Christ is risen.

00:09.50
Kevin Shock
Christ has risen indeed.

00:10.87
Nathan Pile
There it is. ah So, yeah, we're, um, we're back at it here after the busy Holy Week Easter season.

00:21.21
Nathan Pile
um The bishop, he looks tired, everybody. I'm not going to lie.

00:27.57
Kevin Shock
Don't say that because then I'm compelled to say that we're recording this before Easter. ah I think people probably I'm going to be more tired.

00:36.06
Nathan Pile
So he's going to, he's going to, this is a, it's ah kind of an unknown thing about the bishops. They go into hibernation like the bears of winter, but they do it after Easter. um

00:49.87
Kevin Shock
Well, I did, I did put on my calendar for Easter Monday. I just put big in all caps, no commitments.

00:56.53
Nathan Pile
There you

00:56.98
Kevin Shock
So that's, I think that's a, but that's not just a Bishop thing. I think that's a good practice for pastors and probably church musicians and anyone else who's involved in, uh,

01:02.31
Nathan Pile
go. Yeah. Yeah.

01:07.49
Kevin Shock
And big stuff that happens during Holy Week takes ah it takes a lot of people to pull off the celebration.

01:08.03
Nathan Pile
in the week. Yeah. Yeah. It is a good to pull off the celebration.

01:13.86
Kevin Shock
Yep.

01:14.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah. It is good to be able to rest and renew. So, uh, this week we're going to be, um, looking at scripture as is our weekly pattern.

01:26.78
Nathan Pile
Um, this week we're going to look at John the 20th chapter verses 19 through 31. Kevin and I will be reading from the common English Bible translation.

01:37.14
Nathan Pile
Um, And of course, we'll be answering three questions. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And what will make you believe?

01:50.42
Nathan Pile
Ooh, ooh.

01:52.71
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

01:53.76
Nathan Pile
Mm-mm.

01:54.60
Kevin Shock
That's a, that's, that's a nod to my friend Thomas that we're going to read about today.

01:54.70
Nathan Pile
That's going to be...

02:01.59
Nathan Pile
Little Thomas action.

02:03.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah, here's some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated. We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in western Pennsylvania.

02:17.88
Kevin Shock
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than any anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another, so we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

02:36.38
Kevin Shock
And as I already alluded to, we're reading about Thomas from John 20 verses 19 through 20. I'm sorry, John 20 verses 19 through 31.

02:50.30
Kevin Shock
It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, peace be with you.

03:02.49
Kevin Shock
after this he said After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you.

03:13.50
Kevin Shock
As the Father sent me, so I am sending you. And he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you don't forgive them, they aren't forgiven.

03:26.58
Kevin Shock
Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the twelve, wasn't with the disciples when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, We've seen the Lord. But he replied, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by the nails, and put my hand into his side, I won't believe.

03:45.37
Kevin Shock
After eight days, his disciples were again locked in a house, and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you.

03:57.53
Kevin Shock
Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here. Look in my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe. Thomas responded to Jesus, my Lord and my God.

04:10.87
Kevin Shock
Jesus replied, do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who don't see and yet believe. Then Jesus did many other miraculous signs in his disciples' presence, signs that aren't recorded in this scroll.

04:22.81
Kevin Shock
But these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God's Son, and that believing you will have life in his name.

04:35.00
Kevin Shock
If you are, my brain automatically went to the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God. of But we don't often say that in this podcast.

04:45.82
Nathan Pile
yeah

04:47.55
Kevin Shock
um I think it's, I, well, um I'll talk about it when we ask the questions.

04:49.62
Nathan Pile
yeah we know

04:52.46
Kevin Shock
If you're meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and ask each other the questions. But I'm going to ask Nathan the questions. Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

05:04.86
Nathan Pile
Well, um I had a couple of words that stuck out, but the one that um that I'm going to talk about is Didymus, the twin. And um, And really, again, it's, it's an addition in this text.

05:24.06
Nathan Pile
um Like, what do we need the information for? What's the information about? And so then, of course, my head was like, is he a twin with somebody else?

05:37.53
Nathan Pile
um Like, we don't we know he doesn't have a brother. The other brothers are always kind of connected in the other gospel context. readings and so we know tom that Thomas's twin isn't walking around with the 12 that we know of. um but But then I thought, well, maybe he's just called like it's like a nickname.

05:57.50
Nathan Pile
He's the twin of somebody. He looks like somebody, in one of the other 12.

06:00.54
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

06:01.56
Nathan Pile
And so then I was curious, which 12? Does he look like Jesus? Does he look like John? You know, who's he, who's, who's the twin um kind of idea? so And so, yeah again, it kind of launched me into a, well, what... what what Why is the information important um here? and And so for some of it, uh, it feels as if, like, I know Tom. It's a way of showing that I know Thomas.

06:40.98
Nathan Pile
He was the twin. It's an additional... an additional fact about the person that we're bringing up, um, as a part of that. And so, so that's a curious thing to me of, of, again, the writer here of John, um, sharing Thomas, giving Thomas a little bit, a little bit more of a, um, of an identity, i guess, in some ways. Um,

07:12.02
Nathan Pile
but is being but but is more information about them is being shared without, obviously, a a full resume. It's a it's a a nickname or a name that was shared about who Thomas is. And so so John is sharing that tidbit. And I don't know...

07:35.96
Nathan Pile
I'd have to look through the text. I'm not positive Thomas gets named in John anywhere else other than here.

07:44.86
Kevin Shock
That Tom gets named Thomas gets named in John's gospel anywhere other than here.

07:49.14
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

07:49.78
Kevin Shock
He does.

07:51.38
Nathan Pile
Boom. Bring it. where Where's he at?

07:52.60
Kevin Shock
He does. And, and realizing it, it gave me so much more appreciation. That's why I picked this text, because he does get named somewhere else.

08:01.56
Nathan Pile
right.

08:01.78
Kevin Shock
He gets named in Bethany.

08:06.76
Kevin Shock
He's, he's well, he's with Jesus whenever Jesus gets word that Lazarus is dying. And Thomas, how did he ever get the nickname Doubting Thomas? I don't know.

08:18.29
Kevin Shock
Thomas's response whenever Jesus tells the disciples, our friend Thomas has fallen asleep. And they go on talking about, oh, yeah, he doesn't.

08:23.94
Nathan Pile
Lazarus, Lazarus has fallen asleep.

08:25.91
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that Lazarus has fallen asleep. um that You know, the disciples go on about, oh, well, and that's not a problem. He'll wake up again. and Jesus is plainly. he's, He's dead. He died.

08:37.72
Kevin Shock
And then Thomas's response is, then let us go too so that we may die with him.

08:48.15
Kevin Shock
And I'm like, man, this guy does not do anything timidly. He is so bold about, I mean, what ah what a faithful statement.

08:59.61
Kevin Shock
Then let us go that we too may die with him. It's so great. It's so great. Anyway.

09:05.36
Nathan Pile
Yeah. So again, so then we're learning even more about Thomas.

09:13.11
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

09:13.21
Nathan Pile
with, with this title of the twin, Thomas is in the verses before this. And so we're starting to get a little bit of a picture of who, who Thomas is um for us.

09:27.05
Nathan Pile
So yeah, it's powerful. I like that.

09:29.06
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

09:29.75
Nathan Pile
But now I'm even curious if Thomas is a twin of, say, Lazarus. Yeah, like who ah who is he a twin with?

09:37.30
Kevin Shock
not, yeah, ah, yeah, yeah we don't, Yeah, we don't get any explanation for why Thomas is called the twin.

09:39.01
Nathan Pile
Like, who's he twinning

09:43.36
Kevin Shock
but

09:43.82
Nathan Pile
Right, right. But there seems to be knowledge of the author about this individual more than what is put in in words in in the Gospel of John.

09:57.37
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so back in John 11... um The disciples said, Lord, if he's sleeping, he will get well.

10:07.64
Kevin Shock
They thought Jesus meant that Lazarus was in a deep sleep, but Jesus had spoken about Lazarus's death. Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus has died. For your sakes, I'm glad I wasn't there so that you can believe.

10:18.70
Nathan Pile
Sure.

10:18.78
Kevin Shock
Let's go to him. Then Thomas, the one called Didymus, said to the other disciples, let us go too so that we may die with Jesus.

10:29.58
Kevin Shock
That's the CEB translation. I've heard that so that we may die with him. and And I think, but I think the hymn, I like that it's intentionally vague because Jesus is going, Jesus is headed toward his death.

10:44.12
Nathan Pile
too sure

10:45.40
Kevin Shock
And um so, it yeah, it could be that he's talking about Lazarus. It could be he's talking about Jesus. But yeah, Thomas, just bold, bold. I love it.

10:56.66
Kevin Shock
I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

11:00.15
Nathan Pile
How about you? What word phrase or image struck you in this passage?

11:03.03
Kevin Shock
I think it's believe it's believe. um And um just to unpack that a little bit, because I'm always the guy who says you can't just stir up, believe in yourself. um You can't just, you can't just trust just because someone tells you to trust. I still, believe I still believe that to be true.

11:27.38
Kevin Shock
um But John's gospel is all about,

11:34.32
Kevin Shock
signs that point to Jesus being God's anointed one, the the salvation of the world. And so Lazarus is one of those signs.

11:47.13
Kevin Shock
um But when it comes to Thomas, the sign is that Jesus appears among him or among the disciples and he's there with them.

12:00.63
Kevin Shock
and, And says, hey, if you need to see the mark in my side here, put your touch it. If you need to see the, the wounds in my hands, here, here they are, touch them.

12:12.98
Kevin Shock
no more, As it says in this translation, no more disbelief, believe. And then at the end of this, I love the way this chapter ends.

12:24.63
Kevin Shock
And a lot of scholars believe that this is the original end of chapter. gospel according to John. And then all the stuff about Peter and feed my sheep in chapter 21 was a later edition.

12:38.13
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

12:38.25
Kevin Shock
um But I like the last verse of this. But these things are written so that you, meaning you the reader, will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God's son, and that believing you will have life in his name.

12:55.58
Kevin Shock
The whole point of this book is to bring people to belief, to trust that Jesus is the salvation of the world.

13:00.29
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

13:04.06
Kevin Shock
And I, I like that Jesus comes among them and says, I just, I, that, I think the gospel of John is such rich literature.

13:15.92
Nathan Pile
Sure, sure.

13:16.54
Kevin Shock
And yeah,

13:18.89
Nathan Pile
It's by far the best written of the four.

13:22.87
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah. I mean, I think they all have, you know, like they all have their things about them that I love.

13:28.94
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

13:29.98
Kevin Shock
But there's something about,

13:34.68
Kevin Shock
i don't know, there's something about John's gospel. And I had, I had a moment in when I was in college, where I was doing a lot of searching. And it was John's gospel that kind of pulled me back in to yet Christianity. Jesus is the one that like this is, this is the, this is the system. This is the spirituality that makes sense to me and, and, and not just makes sense to me, but also compels me and challenges me.

14:09.51
Kevin Shock
There's something about the gospel according to John that challenged me as a young adult and, and wanted me to like, really, you know, like got, it got its hooks in me.

14:19.37
Nathan Pile
Mm-hmm.

14:19.70
Kevin Shock
Um,

14:22.42
Kevin Shock
So I love the way that Jesus comes in Thomas's presence and all the other ones are there too. And he says, if this is what you need to believe, then I'm going to give it to you.

14:35.10
Kevin Shock
And, and then he says, but blessed are the people who don't need what you need and still come to believe. And then it ends with this whole book was written so that you may come to belief.

14:50.58
Kevin Shock
And by believing, you may have life in Jesus's name. I like it. I just love the way that this, the end of this chapter unfolds. I like this is, I don't think there could be a better ending story.

15:00.81
Nathan Pile
Sure.

15:05.43
Kevin Shock
to this gospel. I mean, obviously someone, someone thought that there was a better ending story with, with Peter, Peter and the feed my sheep and the Jesus making them breakfast on the seashore and all that kind of stuff.

15:12.16
Nathan Pile
Right here. Sure.

15:19.74
Kevin Shock
I like, I understand why that's a good ending too, but I, man, I, I think, I think the gospel according to John would be so much stronger if we just stopped right here. I-

15:28.70
Nathan Pile
here

15:29.85
Kevin Shock
ah ah But that wasn't my decision to make.

15:33.52
Nathan Pile
Kevin, Kevin the editor. Kevin the editor.

15:35.61
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And I, yeah, because I do think, I think that Thomas,

15:43.66
Kevin Shock
we're in an era now, Nathan, you know a lot more about this than I do. I think you're better read and well-versed in it than I am. But um the, the idea of the deconstruction of faith and that doubting is actually a, a, a tool that leads us into greater belief. It's not something that draws us away from belief, but it's something that the Holy Spirit can use to guide us into greater belief. And, and I remember in learning in seminary, the, the Cartesian notion of

16:15.29
Kevin Shock
ah that, you know, if you want, if you want to build anything up, you first have to tear down everything that you have to the foundation and then rebuild it.

16:25.53
Kevin Shock
um Including like, I learned that in in systematic theology class. So like it was a our professor was talking about systematic theology. If you need a theological system, you first have to get like tear down everything that, you know, and then start to build it again. And then you'll get a system that really works for you.

16:46.81
Kevin Shock
um And that can, that God can work with. um But anyway, I, yeah, I'm, I'm just babbling now. I, I think that doubt

17:01.66
Kevin Shock
The term I always took doubting Thomas as a pejorative, but Thomas, the thing about Thomas is that he wants to believe.

17:08.86
Nathan Pile
Sure.

17:09.40
Kevin Shock
I think and I think he wants to believe I there's there's a part of me that can't let go of the idea that Thomas isn't with the other disciples because he's out in the town searching for Jesus.

17:22.20
Kevin Shock
He's out there looking for him. while the rest of the disciples are just behind locked doors trying to stay safe. not you know, and, And it takes a whole week before Thomas is back with them.

17:33.75
Kevin Shock
And Jesus has clearly heard Thomas's words and, and is there to deliver the goods, so to speak. Here I am.

17:45.14
Kevin Shock
Look, here's the here are the wounds. You told me this is what you need. And sure enough, it is because then Thomas responds with this great confession of faith, my Lord and my God. Yeah.

18:01.08
Kevin Shock
I, I, man, I, I,

18:02.65
Nathan Pile
Well, and really all Thomas is asking for is what everybody else got. Right?

18:06.96
Kevin Shock
it's true. It's true. He's not asking for anything special. No, no, no.

18:09.41
Nathan Pile
He's not asking for something special. Everybody else got.

18:11.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:12.92
Nathan Pile
got this. And so, and, and to be fair, this is the thing I like about Thomas is that he doesn't actually need to put his fingers where he says he does.

18:14.18
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:25.27
Nathan Pile
Seeing is enough.

18:27.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:28.54
Nathan Pile
You know, he, he makes this, this statement of, you know, until I put my, my hands in the marks of the nails and fingers in the wounds and my hand in the side, like,

18:37.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

18:41.54
Nathan Pile
That's what he says. And Jesus presents all of that as a place to do that. But it doesn't say, and then Thomas touched Jesus and believed. It was my Lord and my God.

18:54.89
Kevin Shock
Yep.

18:55.19
Nathan Pile
um So, so there's a part, again, and the doubting Thomas piece, I do think is a tough, um,

18:55.67
Kevin Shock
yep

19:04.15
Nathan Pile
having questions but at the same time my my faith journey has got a lot of questions as a part of that that you know my journey in life and so I, I look at Thomas as, as a kindred spirit on the life of faith in the life of faith and not you know I think again we give him the title of doubting Thomas and it makes it bad but, but there's, I had all kind of, I still have all kinds of questions and doubts about you know

19:16.97
Kevin Shock
Sure.

19:31.54
Nathan Pile
you know, is this what's important? Is this, um,

19:37.30
Nathan Pile
you know, am I believing in in right ways? And can I believe in, in those ways, in some ways? So like all of that, I think is, um, again, I think he's an interesting, um, disciple and an interesting,

19:56.73
Nathan Pile
in the midst of an interesting passage of struggling with what do what is it that I need to be able to believe that this, that Jesus has it has been raised from the dead?

20:08.41
Nathan Pile
Because there all of us, I think, if we're honest about it, like what's the likelihood that this is really like Jesus is raised from the dead. um You know, and I think when I was in seminary, I can remember asking those really clarifying questions.

20:25.30
Nathan Pile
Like, how do we have proof? Well, you know, you know yeah how do we know this happened and so forth? and And again, one of those wise professors simply said, Nathan, can you see 12 people going to do what happens after this without

20:41.46
Kevin Shock
ah

20:42.39
Nathan Pile
something miraculous happening and I was like fair very fair, like no, no, I absolutely do not you know the leader is killed let's go back home and hide and make sure that we live our life instead they get louder go farther continue to live the hard life of being disciples and

20:44.79
Kevin Shock
yeah

21:08.18
Nathan Pile
tell, tell God's story, and, well, well we will have just celebrated the week of holy week and and they start the tradition of gathering for the meal it's obvious that it that that it has its origins in these disciples that would have been around the first, the table the first time um because of how

21:22.38
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

21:33.21
Nathan Pile
how they all connect. doesn't mean that That you have four Gospels and you have Paul all writing around the idea of communion and the the habit, the ritual is, is well enough established within 20 years of Jesus' life that they all write similarly about it.

21:59.30
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

22:00.54
Nathan Pile
And so like, there's again, there's those, that evidence is there. And so these, these disciples are taking what they know and what they've been taught. And I think are inspired by this Easter, this Easter celebration, this Easter moment.

22:18.20
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and here we have the story of one who had doubts. And by the end of the story is proclaiming the same as everyone else. Um,

22:30.81
Nathan Pile
You know, it's not like, again, I'd have to look at the text again.

22:47.77
Nathan Pile
So they were still, so the disciples were still behind a locked door a week later.

22:53.31
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

22:55.74
Nathan Pile
That's what I was looking for. So it hasn't,

22:57.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

22:58.46
Nathan Pile
It hasn't changed yet enough for them to be living differently.

23:02.85
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

23:03.61
Nathan Pile
And yet this story comes in and Thomas, as you say, is, is the bold one.

23:03.61
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

23:09.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

23:10.71
Nathan Pile
um

23:11.05
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

23:11.48
Nathan Pile
and, And we know that the next reading is that they're now no longer behind a locked door.

23:19.77
Kevin Shock
Right, right. And that, and I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reasoning why, and I'm not sure when that later edition came in. I mean, by the time that the new Testament was canonized, I'm sure it was already a part of it.

23:28.69
Nathan Pile
Sure.

23:32.92
Kevin Shock
Um, but, um, I think that that later that chapter 21 is there to show that they didn't just stay behind the locked door.

23:46.14
Kevin Shock
um But also I think that that there's there's something about that imagination. I think that the the editors of the gospel, according to John, from that Essene community that put this gospel together, I think that they are underestimating human imagination by needing to show that the that the disciples are out of the locked out from behind locked doors.

24:16.50
Kevin Shock
And the other thing is we unpack this a little bit and I'm, this is all speculation listeners.

24:16.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:20.86
Kevin Shock
So don't take anything I said. I think I'm also a little irritated that, uh, that later edition of chapter 21, or even, even if it wasn't late, even if it was something like, you know, the the author or authors are still sitting around saying, Oh, you know what?

24:36.90
Kevin Shock
This book needs something else, which I don't think that they would have said that based on the way that last line, that last verse was written. But, um, The other thing it does is chapter 21 steals the, the primacy of the papacy from Thomas and gives it to Peter.

24:54.13
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:55.42
Kevin Shock
Like, I think, I think Thomas should have been the first pope. Because you know, like, well, you don't know. You don't know. Again, all speculation listeners, I would like to think that if Thomas is the one who was out there searching for Jesus in that week after the resurrection, that he was the one who, after Jesus,

25:16.38
Kevin Shock
disappeared from them again, said, all right, guys, it's time for us to get out there and went and unlocked the door and, and led the disciples out into the city to live that resurrection life.

25:31.32
Kevin Shock
I would like to think that, but maybe I'm just, I'm just fanboying on Thomas, I guess is just, yeah.

25:35.99
Nathan Pile
Don't Thomas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

25:40.36
Kevin Shock
Anywho. What I think,

25:43.06
Nathan Pile
There are other, there are others out there folks that were fanboying of Thomas. There's a gospel of Thomas that was written too. And, and so, there's, there's others out there that have also wondered about, um, and, and really wondered about all of the disciples.

25:49.66
Kevin Shock
Well, that's true. That's true.

25:58.67
Nathan Pile
Um, and so But I do think it's, it's an, it's, it's an intriguing um part of of of our story, of of the story that we've been given and handed down of of coming to belief in what that looks like for not just for the disciples who would have been around Jesus every day,

26:23.83
Nathan Pile
um in his ministry but even for us 2,000 years later, um, who are in the midst of our own struggles of of doubt and questioning of, um, of belief and unbelief um stories like this, I think can help us, um, the gift of the Holy spirit, you know, with the guidance of the spirit to, uh, to grow in our own, in our own ways. And, and, um, I didn't realize that you were such a big fan boy of Thomas until today.

27:00.02
Nathan Pile
Um, but, Oh,

27:00.73
Kevin Shock
I think it's only happened during this Lent, Nathan. I, ah yeah. I mean, I've, ah, I've often thought that he he didn't he gets a bad rap by being called Doubting Thomas, but...

27:11.32
Nathan Pile
Well, I've always, I've always thought he's gotten a bad rap.

27:14.01
Kevin Shock
but um

27:14.07
Nathan Pile
And again, I think some of that goes to my own questioning, right? you My own questioning, you know I'm like, well, I want my questioning to be okay. So Thomas questions, it's all right, right?

27:24.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think and I think that's fair, yeah.

27:25.46
Nathan Pile
So, well, I think so as too. I don't think that, again, being Lutheran Christians, it's not about not about our earning God's love.

27:41.99
Nathan Pile
you know um we don't, again, we can get caught up in it. I wish I could, I wish I believed more. I wish I believed better, I wish I was like the disciples um and yet you know over time and time again we find that the disciples aren't aren't nearly as perfect as we would paint them to be um if we especially if we look at these texts and so um

28:01.70
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

28:04.74
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

28:07.58
Nathan Pile
you know, Being able to to to recognize that ah we we walk along disciples that that are that were very human, just like we are, in the midst of of of them also being able to witness and and be a part of the miraculous that Jesus did in front of them.

28:29.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

28:31.93
Nathan Pile
So it makes sense for us that that haven't seen and haven't walked specifically with Jesus. to have our own doubts. But I've, I have found that my doubts have also helped me to believe in bigger ways than where I was at first, like as a as a young person and the belief that I have and now as an adult and the belief that I have.

28:48.50
Kevin Shock
yeah

28:59.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true for me too.

29:02.72
Nathan Pile
Yeah. I have ah this is, This is a bit of a tangent, but it is about belief. My daughter, the other night, we I was giving her flack about, like, she reads, she reads she loves to read.

29:13.82
Nathan Pile
She reads lots of books. But she's always reading things like about the Greek gods and fiction, fiction stuff that's based off of that kind of stuff.

29:20.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

29:23.13
Nathan Pile
And so she made a comment. She just turned 15. And so she made a comment back at her dad. It was like, she and says she said something, well, they don't believe in the Greek gods anymore. And maybe they're not going to believe in God in another 1500 years or something like that.

29:36.64
Nathan Pile
And I was like, we'll have to unpack that sometime.

29:39.43
Kevin Shock
Oh, no. Yeah.

29:41.24
Nathan Pile
The tug of war wasn't the time to, to have that conversation, but, but I did think, oh Okay, you're, you're starting to push a little bit. Let's see where we can go here. so, So it would be good to have that conversation some evening when she wants when she's willing to talk and not play tug-of-war.

30:00.60
Nathan Pile
She was looking for a tug-of-war battle last night, so I was not, I was not stepping into that.

30:03.83
Kevin Shock
no

30:05.68
Nathan Pile
so

30:06.39
Kevin Shock
yeah

30:07.83
Nathan Pile
but, But it is, again, we have to... Well, if everybody believed in these gods, you know, thousands of years ago, um and now they don't, maybe, maybe God, we don't believe in God now, you know, kind of a thing that you put you you push that a little bit when you're in these,

30:28.50
Nathan Pile
young adult years trying to figure out where the boundaries are and so um so it'll be it'll be a fun conversation I'm sure when we when we get into it but but again it's that idea of belief what

30:33.02
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

30:42.08
Kevin Shock
Right.

30:45.91
Nathan Pile
I was giving, I was essentially attacking her entertainment reading the books that she reads and saying oh is there anything else you would read and so

30:52.86
Kevin Shock
Mm

30:55.93
Nathan Pile
I'm sure she was getting defensive and and pushing back on that. and so um But being able to kind of talk about it now as a parent, and like of a parent of faith, like I'm like, ooh, this should be ah an interesting conversation when we do have it.

31:12.82
Nathan Pile
and, and, And again, what what is belief and bend and how is it?

31:21.34
Nathan Pile
how are these two things different? And being able to talk about that a little bit with her.

31:28.76
Nathan Pile
So, yep, yep. Yeah,

31:30.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I have some initial thoughts, but I'm not her parent. And then, yeah, I mean, thanks.

31:33.90
Nathan Pile
yeah. Yeah.

31:36.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

31:39.43
Nathan Pile
It'll be good. It'll be a good conversation, so.

31:41.10
Kevin Shock
Yep.

31:43.86
Kevin Shock
All right, let's look at this a second time.

31:49.47
Nathan Pile
All right.

31:54.72
Nathan Pile
It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you.

32:07.96
Nathan Pile
After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.

32:22.26
Nathan Pile
Then he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you don't forgive them, they aren't forgiven. Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the twelve, wasn't with the disciples when Jesus came.

32:39.99
Nathan Pile
The other disciples told him, we've seen the Lord. But he replied, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by the nails, and put my hand in it to his side, I won't believe.

32:55.61
Nathan Pile
After eight days, his disciples were again in a house, and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you.

33:08.95
Nathan Pile
Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe.

33:21.27
Nathan Pile
Thomas responded to Jesus, My Lord and my God. Jesus replied, Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who don't see and yet believe.

33:33.10
Nathan Pile
Then Jesus did many other miraculous signs in his disciples' presence, signs that aren't recorded in this scroll. But these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God's Son, and that believing you will have life in his name.

33:53.34
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

33:58.26
Kevin Shock
um I, I think it's to be bold in questioning.

34:06.36
Kevin Shock
Or, ah I don't, it's it, oh, yeah sorry, hit my microphone there. um it It brings to mind for me, um Jesus'

34:23.45
Kevin Shock
instruction, encouragement, exhortation in other gospels, um to pray persistently.

34:33.99
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

34:35.22
Kevin Shock
And I feel that what Thomas is doing here in some is some form of prayer.

34:43.25
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

34:46.13
Kevin Shock
he's, he's, He's asking that he might see what he needs to see to believe.

34:52.79
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

34:53.72
Kevin Shock
And... So I think there's, yeah, what I'm being called to, it's some, something about boldness,

35:04.60
Kevin Shock
something about persistence. um But also, and and I guess, I guess to unpack that a little bit, that boldness or persistence, it's not, it's about not being

35:20.02
Kevin Shock
not being afraid to be curious or not. It's not, it's not as the Paul, Paul, I don't know why I said that. Um, Thomas is not trying to affirm his own belief to somebody else.

35:35.09
Kevin Shock
He's not trying to assert anything. He just, he wants, he wants to believe Jesus and he wants, he, he's bold about asking for what he needs to do that. So it's, um,

35:49.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I don't know. it's not, It's not as though... um i really I read this and I don't, I don't think that Thomas is doing anything wrong.

36:00.79
Kevin Shock
like I don't ah Thomas is not going against God here. He's going against the what the rest of the apostles or disciples are up to. he's, He's going about his own search differently.

36:15.06
Kevin Shock
and, And I think that's okay. I think that's okay. And I think that um not only do I think that's okay, but I think that there have been times in my life where my, my seeking God um

36:35.26
Kevin Shock
has, has looked differently than what the church I was in at the time told me to do or something like that. I don't know.

36:41.46
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

36:42.71
Kevin Shock
Um, but I'm, it especially at this point in my life and at this point in the life of the church, in this era of the church, I am very much open to people exploring,

36:58.04
Kevin Shock
faith, spirituality, ah connectedness to Christ in different ways. Um, I think that we have a lot of rich gifts for how the church has done for centu-, for millennia, but, um,

37:10.97
Kevin Shock
But I, I think it's okay. Like, yeah, I guess I just think of things like, I don't think you have to be a member of a church to,

37:21.62
Kevin Shock
to be involved in a church and to seek Jesus in that church. Like, you know, some of the assumptions that we've made ah but in the past about how people are connected to and engage with community are very different now based on the generations that we're working with.

37:39.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

37:40.21
Kevin Shock
And I think, I think it's important for people to know that they're... Thomas knows that he can come and hang out with those disciples when the time comes, and he does do that in Jesus.

37:50.30
Kevin Shock
I mean, that maybe that's the other thing, too, is to pay attention to, is that Jesus does not meet Thomas one-on-one on the street. Jesus waits until he's with the rest to come and meet them.

37:58.46
Nathan Pile
rest of the community. Yeah. Yeah.

38:00.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, he comes in the community. So maybe that's important to point out, too.

38:04.89
Nathan Pile
know

38:05.95
Kevin Shock
Anywho, I just don't... I, I think that... I think that Thomas's searching is something in his persistence as something to be celebrated.

38:16.92
Nathan Pile
Well, and, and as you've articulated, I think there's a, a willingness on the Christ to meet us in that searching, right?

38:26.90
Nathan Pile
To show up and, and, and, um, Jesus knows that Thomas has these questions.

38:27.19
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right. Yeah.

38:34.36
Nathan Pile
Um, and so Jesus shows up. Um, again, I think it's, as you've pointed out, it's interesting that he does it in the community again.

38:45.82
Nathan Pile
um

38:49.11
Nathan Pile
though one appearance hasn't been enough for this community, in my mind, because we're still behind a closed, locked door eight days later. um And so,

39:00.28
Kevin Shock
Well, that's an, that's another reality. Yes. Mm-hmm.

39:04.73
Nathan Pile
and so Jesus, Jesus comes again and and does it for Thomas.

39:13.85
Nathan Pile
But again, there's a part of me that's, that it's for all of the community that's there, that's gathered.

39:24.63
Nathan Pile
you know, we need that reassurance. I think it's, as you say, that to, to be able to ask boldly or to question boldly can be a hard thing. And to be able to...

39:38.52
Nathan Pile
um to have those questions met with, um, with God's presence is a power. It can be powerful is, is important.

39:50.30
Nathan Pile
Um, and so, no, mind again, I think it's, it's ah just an interesting passage. A lot, there's a lot here to chew on.

40:03.45
Kevin Shock
Yep.

40:04.18
Nathan Pile
Uh, I think for me,

40:05.91
Kevin Shock
yeah what Yeah, what's your response?

40:07.73
Nathan Pile
um it's not far from yours, but I think And some of it has to do with where we're at, I think, is as ah society and culture.

40:19.00
Nathan Pile
It's not to be afraid. like ah Again, behind...

40:21.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

40:25.14
Nathan Pile
Jesus comes and offers peace to us. um you know and so um but But don't don't be afraid.

40:37.21
Nathan Pile
Again, it goes back to you're bold. Be bold. in our questions and be bold and in in our belief trust trust in god um now it also you know, you, I don't get from this passage that we're to be so, so bold that we're careless that we're just out there

40:59.64
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:02.30
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:03.48
Nathan Pile
you know but, but, But again, we're the idea of being afraid is is is brought up both times.

41:15.35
Nathan Pile
And so a part of Christ showing up both times is to bring them peace.

41:22.99
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

41:23.19
Nathan Pile
Is to bring them an ease of their own anxieties.

41:31.06
Nathan Pile
To be able to... um

41:36.50
Nathan Pile
to go back out into the world. And so, um, so there's something about, there's something about this for me of, of for us as the church today, there's a lot of fears that we have, not so much about,

41:57.08
Nathan Pile
being a Christian. I think our fears now are, about that our churches are shrinking, we don't have enough money.

42:07.32
Nathan Pile
those are, Those are the bigger fears.

42:09.74
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

42:10.46
Nathan Pile
and, And maybe even sometimes that that others have have have have taken the religious moniker and are using it in ways that we don't like.

42:10.62
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

42:22.07
Nathan Pile
um So there's fear around that. And so we don't want to appear like those people when we're out in public. Um, and so there's fears about how we, how we proclaim God's love in the world. Um, but how do, how do we set that fear aside as the believers, um, and, and, and come to believe and that that be, that that be our foundation, that be our, um,

42:55.96
Nathan Pile
our stronghold as we move forward, um, instead of being trapped by our fear. So,

43:04.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:08.12
Nathan Pile
so I think that would be, um, you know, don't be afraid and, and, and how we could, um, get beyond that.

43:12.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:18.39
Nathan Pile
So,

43:20.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I, Fear is an incredible motivator and also creates incredible barriers to imaginative work that God is doing.

43:33.88
Kevin Shock
um

43:36.79
Kevin Shock
And yeah, like, yeah, you talked about churches in decline. um Sometimes I really want to find out what is behind people's fear in like the church building they know possibly closing or fewer people coming there. Like what, what, what's the actual fear? Is it that Jesus isn't going to show up anymore or is it something else?

44:07.61
Kevin Shock
Like I, I'm just interested in knowing what the motivation is. Much like, much like we don't know what the motivation is with the disciples staying behind locked doors.

44:20.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

44:23.29
Kevin Shock
But I think it's pretty clear that they're, well, it tells us that they're afraid. Yeah.

44:27.31
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

44:28.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Afraid of what? We don't know. Afraid of a future without Jesus. Afraid of being found out as one of the people who were with him and ending up getting crucified ourselves. You know, ah I mean, there's all kinds of things they could be afraid of.

44:48.70
Kevin Shock
Well, it says at the beginning they're afraid of the Jewish authorities.

44:48.79
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

44:51.02
Kevin Shock
So, I guess it's more, yeah, it's, but, but maybe they're afraid of being cast out of the community. Um, you know, that's another fear.

45:00.36
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Fear,

45:02.49
Kevin Shock
may not be that they're put to death, but it may be that they're not a allowed to be a part of what the community that gathers anymore. Yeah.

45:13.24
Nathan Pile
yeah fear there's, there yeah.

45:18.74
Nathan Pile
Fear has always been

45:24.89
Nathan Pile
part of the church.

45:30.78
Kevin Shock
Absolutely.

45:32.63
Nathan Pile
and, And of course, ah in our own humanness, we try to try to you know balance that fear.

45:43.93
Nathan Pile
and So here's an example. So... the congregation that I attend when, when I can attend regularly, I, um, locks the doors during worship.

45:58.36
Nathan Pile
Um, and, and, and, you know, there's a fear, you know, the, the, the, out of the fear of somebody coming in while we're in worship and shooting up the place.

45:58.51
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

46:09.01
Nathan Pile
That's, that's what the fear is. Right. Um, and that had relaxed for a little while, Um, and so like the doors were open and you could get in a little bit more back to now we put signs on the doors and say, all of these doors are locked.

46:25.46
Nathan Pile
All of these doors are locked. Just go to this one door. This is where you can get in. Talk about a terrible welcome.

46:33.11
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:33.21
Nathan Pile
Like it's terrible. Um, and then there's another set of doors and another section of the church and, Like if the parking lot upstairs is full, you have to park down below.

46:44.56
Nathan Pile
Well, you can't get in because the doors are locked unless you have a key.

46:46.70
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:49.07
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

46:49.08
Nathan Pile
Who's got a key? So like, like our fear, yeah, just sometimes I think it goes against what that looks like.

47:00.10
Nathan Pile
Even if it was, you know, all of the doors are open and then they lock. at 10 40, you know, so for everybody can be in worship kind of a thing, but then they're all back open because the whole time you're in the, you know, you're in the narthex, or the lobby, for those who don't know narthex. Um,

47:24.50
Nathan Pile
the when the doors are are locked, somebody steps outside and then they can't get in and they're like shaking the door and somebody has to walk over and open the door. like it's

47:33.51
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

47:33.59
Nathan Pile
it's

47:33.65
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

47:34.43
Nathan Pile
it's... So again, the fear, how fear binds us up as the church. And that's just a simple example. like there's, There's some technical fixes that can be changed there and make it better.

47:47.45
Nathan Pile
um

47:50.52
Nathan Pile
But being able to kind of say, what else could be done? How else could we get beyond our fear? how could we How could we be safe and yet still feel, people feel welcome?

48:03.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:03.99
Nathan Pile
so

48:04.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:08.60
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, that I mean, that that that will lead me down a whole other rabbit hole of, yeah.

48:08.74
Nathan Pile
So, yeah, better do this a third time.

48:18.16
Nathan Pile
A fear and response to it.

48:20.15
Kevin Shock
Of something, of something, yeah.

48:21.08
Nathan Pile
All right.

48:23.00
Kevin Shock
All right, let's look at this a third time.

48:28.38
Kevin Shock
It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you.

48:39.54
Kevin Shock
After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I am sending you.

48:52.64
Kevin Shock
Then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you don't forgive them, they aren't forgiven. Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the twelve, wasn't with the disciples when Jesus came.

49:07.16
Kevin Shock
The other disciples told him, We've seen the Lord. But he replied, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by the nails, and put my hand into his side, I won't believe.

49:20.28
Kevin Shock
After eight days, his disciples were again in a house, and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus ah entered and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you.

49:31.22
Kevin Shock
Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe. Thomas responded to Jesus, My Lord and my God.

49:43.96
Kevin Shock
Jesus replied, Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who don't see and yet believe. Then Jesus did many other miraculous signs in his disciples' presence, signs that aren't recorded in this scroll.

49:57.37
Kevin Shock
But these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God's Son, and that believing you will have life in his name.

50:08.44
Kevin Shock
So, Nathan, what will make you believe?

50:14.63
Nathan Pile
I'm pretty Lutheran. um I believe when I do believe, when I do believe, it's something, something has been gifted through the spirit to me.

50:25.64
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

50:26.30
Nathan Pile
And so that is um sometimes that's interactions with other people. Sometimes it's all a holy moment or an experience that, that has brought inspiration. Yeah.

50:41.37
Nathan Pile
But I don't ever think that it's just because we humans put everything together to make it happen. I think it feels as if it's the Holy Spirit that has made it happen, that has put it into place. And so um when I come to, as I come to believe,

51:02.74
Nathan Pile
and to me, it's ah that's that gift. It's that gift from God that, that has, um, has sparked it. And maybe again, in some ways, um, my questions that I ask, my being curious, my doubting has me looking for God in those places and in new ways.

51:25.27
Nathan Pile
and maybe that helps me to see, um God in the spirit in new ways, but it's not because I'm asking that, you know, it's just that, that God has always been there. God has always been functioning, um, in ways to, to bring about, you know, new life into the world and bring about faith into the world. Um, but my questions ah eventually lead me to find or see that,

51:52.41
Nathan Pile
um And then I come to believe. but But again, the work, even though I'm doing some things, I'm asking questions. It's not because I've asked the right question that I'm getting an answer. It's more about that I'm asking questions and I'm looking and maybe that helps me to see God.

52:09.98
Nathan Pile
who was always there, but the question helps me to see God in some in some new way that brings an answer to that question. But for me, always behind all of that it is, is the Holy Spirit.

52:26.94
Nathan Pile
How about you?

52:29.59
Kevin Shock
um ah

52:30.01
Nathan Pile
What will make you believe?

52:32.18
Kevin Shock
um I'm not at a place right now where I feel like I don't believe. um But I think that...

52:45.59
Kevin Shock
there There are certainly ah lots of times when other voices drown out the voice of trust that the Holy Spirit has given me.

52:53.83
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

52:54.84
Kevin Shock
And so I think one thing I know that helps me with that is being around other people. And, and sometimes it's just in fellowship, but other times it is sharing, it's sharing stories like this. It's, it's talking about the ways that It's talking about the things that have brought us to belief.

53:17.27
Kevin Shock
um It's talking about how we see God ah work present and working in the world. um

53:26.05
Kevin Shock
It's the opportunity to proclaim good news that that helps me to trust again. um Because I think I think I'm well past...

53:43.72
Kevin Shock
I'm well past the point where I believe it in my head that Jesus was raised from the dead.

53:48.26
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

53:51.06
Kevin Shock
Whether it makes sense or not, I believe it.

53:53.76
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

53:54.33
Kevin Shock
But um but living that living each day as though that belief is at the foundation of my life and who I am,

53:54.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

54:09.43
Kevin Shock
is something that I'll never get right before I die. Like it will remain a constant struggle, and maybe it will become less of a struggle.

54:17.03
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

54:17.64
Kevin Shock
I think it has become less of a struggle, but still there are times when fear and worry and anxiety outweigh or drown out the trust that the Holy Spirit has given me.

54:34.58
Kevin Shock
And the, the faith. When I say trust, we can probably interchange that with faith and the relationship that God has established with me in, in Jesus.

54:45.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

54:54.26
Kevin Shock
Yeah. God appearing in the gathered people.

55:00.37
Kevin Shock
that's what, That's what leads me back to it.

55:02.62
Nathan Pile
Lead you back to

55:03.67
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

55:06.74
Nathan Pile
ah, Any other thoughts, reflections?

55:10.31
Kevin Shock
I don't think so.

55:13.78
Nathan Pile
um while Looking at additional texts for the Sunday after du Easter. um Additional text, Acts chapter 2, verse fourteen a Verse 22 through 32, Christ's resurrection and the fulfillment of God's promise to David.

55:36.11
Nathan Pile
Here is the author of Luke Acts is talking about. Psalm 16, in your presence there is fullness of joy. And 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 3 through 9, a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection.

55:55.26
Nathan Pile
We also have some provisional texts. Again, if you remember, Bishop introduced this a couple of weeks ago, that these provisional alternative readings are suggested by the consultation on the common texts.

56:08.76
Nathan Pile
And there's information about that on the ELCA worship site for those that are want to dig into that a little bit more. But essentially, these provisional readings are readings that um

56:25.33
Nathan Pile
at times we have readings that, um, might point to or blame our siblings in the Jewish faith, um, than they should. and so these provisional readings are, um again, readings from scripture, but that, that, um, that give us an alternative, uh, so that we might be, more, i don't, is it inclusive? Would you use that word, Kevin?

56:54.52
Kevin Shock
well, I think, I think it just the the um

56:54.55
Nathan Pile
Um,

56:58.87
Kevin Shock
the The Jewish voice has, yes, what you say is true, but also the Jewish voice has been missing from the Easter season lectionary for a while.

57:09.56
Kevin Shock
And so this is, this is also a ah move to try to reinstate some of that voice.

57:14.39
Nathan Pile
Re-in-, and bring some of that about okay okay

57:15.33
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're not wrong. I mean, so but the gospel that we hear today um The Common English Bible says that the disciples were behind locked doors out of fear for the Jewish authorities.

57:28.50
Nathan Pile
fear of the Jews yeah hmm yeah

57:30.33
Kevin Shock
In the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition, it just says ah out of fear for the Jews. And it's easy to misinterpret that as though all Jewish people are bad.

57:44.95
Nathan Pile
yeah

57:45.37
Kevin Shock
or Yeah, so...

57:48.41
Nathan Pile
so those readings for us the the provisional readings are exodus chapter 15 verses 1 through 11 and verse 19 through 21 this is the song of Moses and Miriam at the sea and then psalm 111 I will give thanks to the lord with my whole heart right, um, as always, Kevin, it's um

58:07.14
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

58:11.42
Nathan Pile
I appreciate our time and reflection on scripture together. And those listening, we encourage you to share if there's something that we talked about or something in the readings that particularly were inspiring to you, we would be happy to hear your reflections. And so you can do that ah through email or on social media and Twitter.

58:35.51
Nathan Pile
In the outro, we give you that information so you can just listen to the end and get that information. We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

58:45.34
Kevin Shock
And peace.